Amnesty Hearings

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I would ask for some direction here. I am not sure what this Committee proposes to do. When this Committee proposes to close for the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly not now.

MR KOOPEDI: I would then ask or request to call the third applicant, I wanted to indicate that I wanted to call him, but was not sure when the Committee intends breaking up, thank you.

The next applicant is Mr Ndlovu.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, page 28 - 34.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, which language would you prefer to use?

MR NDLOVU: English.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable with that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: May I have an indulgence for a second please, there is a document I am trying to find.

ADV MOTATA: Whilst your counsel is finding a document, how do you pronounce or spell your second name? I am not sure of the spelling on page 28 of the second name?

MR NDLOVU: Mabore. Actually it was misprinted because during those days, we had problems. Now my name is being changed to be Mabore, my real name is Mabope.

MR KOOPEDI: I have found the document I was looking for, if I may proceed Mr Chairman. Thank you for the indulgence.

Is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter and an applicant in terms of you being, or having been a member of the Johannes Nkosi Unit?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you speak up to the microphone?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, would you tell the Commissioners, the Honourable Committee Members before we go into the details of the acts for which you are applying amnesty, who you are, when were you born, when did you join the ANC?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, actually what I will do is I will read the biography that has been prepared.

My name is Alfas Mabore Ndlovu. The address is 35 Esangweni Section, Tembisa. The date of birth, 1964-07-02. I joined the ANC and the People's Revolutionary Army, MK in September 1985.

I joined the liberation forces during the time when colonialism and perilous forces were displaying African people in particular, and killing them. The total full, calculated military aggression against the front line States, suppression of student bodies, that is COSAS and working class formations (indistinct).

The military skills which I acquired within the ranks of the African National Congress and Umkonto We Sizwe is as follows: I received the following military training in Angola in 1985. I have done the following courses, military engineering, politics, firearms, military tactics, typography, physical training and artillery.

Further I went to Cuba and I have done the following course, that is suburban warfare, Commander's course in the year 1986.

And furthermore, I have done military combat work in 1989, that is the former Soviet Union. That is finished.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, will you tell the Honourable Committee members, the offences for which you are applying for amnesty.

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I would say is that I am applying for all offences which my fellow applicants spoke about.

MR KOOPEDI: Will you please enumerate them?

MR NDLOVU: Number 1, that is the bombing of "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section, Katlehong.

MR KOOPEDI: ...[inaudible] for which you are applying for amnesty.

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I would say is that I am applying for all offences which my fellow applicants spoke about.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you please enumerate that?

MR NDLOVU

1) Number 1: That is the bombing of "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section, Katlehong.

2) The bombing of sewerage pipes in Sunwatt Park.

3) The bombing of "Kitskonstabels" and SAP.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, the bombing of the "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section, what did you so there? What was your role in that?

MR NDLOVU: My role was that physically and practically I went there to execute the operation and even part of the planning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NDLOVU: Okay, the second one is the bombing of the sewerage pipe. In this one I do agree with my fellow applicants, that together being a unit that was stationed or to organise activities around East Rand, I also planned and approved the operations that it must executed. ...[indistinct] the planning.

4) The third one: Ambush of the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in the Motsamai Section.

My role, it was that I went there physically and I took part in the execution of the operation.

MS KHAMPEPE: How?

MR NDLOVU: By carrying an AK rifle and went there to demoralise the enemy by firing shots.

5) The other one is the bombing of Wimpy Bar.

And this one I went there personally to execute the operation.

6) The bombing of the rail line and electrical sub-station next to Katlehong Station.

My role was that I went there physically to execute the operation in benefit of our people.

7) The last one - not last. The bus terminus in Germiston.

I also took part in planning and giving the approval with other comrades and my commanders, that the operation should be carried out.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that the incidents that you are referring to are all enumerated on page 10 of Exhibit A?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that in all these operations, even though you did not personally, you may not have personally carried out or executed an act, however you were involved in the planning thereof?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was involved in the planning and the other things, the operations which were being carried out by our sub-unit. That is the attacks against councillors.

MS KHAMPEPE: I didn't hear that one.

MR NDLOVU: I'm talking about the attacks against councillors.

MS KHAMPEPE: What about them, did you also take part in their planning?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names or identities of these councillors who were victims or possible victims?

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know the identities.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know if any attack took place?

MR NDLOVU: Actually through media we heard the reports ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know yourself?

MR NDLOVU: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know yourself?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I'm trying to indicate that operations were being carried out, especially by our sub-unit.

MS KHAMPEPE: But didn't your sub-unit come back to report to you as people who must have been higher than them, about how they had fared with the operations?

MR NDLOVU: Actually, when it comes to that issue, they do give reports but it was not possible or easier to locate our comrades, especially in the sub-units, to give proper reports because we also were operating under difficult conditions which were by that time, it was not conducive enough for our units to operate. We operated under difficult conditions.

MS KHAMPEPE: Difficult conditions which made it impossible for your sub-units to come back and give you reports about operations that you had given them instruction to execute?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that's too difficult to locate our units, especially after operations you find that, let's say a person might be under serious stress or either fear of being caught, would take retreat position or take underground retreat.

MS KHAMPEPE: How many instructions did you give to these sub-units to carry out in respect of the councillors?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the instructions which we gave is that they were collective, not as an individual.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was it at one given time or were you able to meet and give them further instructions with regard to the conduct of further operations?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say on that issue is that we do, sometimes we do meet but not meeting - how can I put it, regularly.

MS KHAMPEPE: I'm still a little unclear about it, how these instructions were given and how reports were actually given to you from your sub-units. You must have been in some kind of control of your sub-units?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, we do have the control but the other thing is that a unit cannot give, let's say names, we have to consider the security situation, that we are not allowed, we are going to guerilla warfare, that we should write reports.

MS KHAMPEPE: The only reason why we are posing these questions is we have to ascertain whether there was an offence which was committed or not before we can either consider whether you qualify for amnesty or not.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: I hope you understand.

MR NDLOVU: I'm saying that to throw a grenade against a councillor, during those days and even presently, it is an offence according to the law.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, but you don't know whether that grenade was thrown to a councillor or not since no reports were ever given back to you.

MR NDLOVU: What I'm trying to indicate is that new in the newspapers were being read, that there were attacks, and we knew that our sub-units were carrying attacks against councillors.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, can you maybe state to us how did you ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: May I just say that there are no further questions from my side at this stage?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: I apologise Mr Chairman, to my colleague there as well.

Sir, can you state how did you see or how did you understand your political motive? Can you explain to us your political motive for engaging in these acts for which you are applying for amnesty?

MR NDLOVU: The political motive, it has been stated by my fellow applicants, and I don't think that we have to continue with the same question in different forms, because it has been answered by my fellow applicants and even my commander as a head of the unit.

ADV MOTATA: But Mr Ndlovu, you are before us as an applicant, and if we had to look at you and say the others have answered for you, what would ...[indistinct] be saying what you said before us, which would be considered either to grant or refuse amnesty, we wouldn't be having that. So it might be a repetition but please answer the questions as posed to you.

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you indicate to us what your political motive was, or how did you understand your political motive at the time, when committing these acts.

MR NDLOVU: The political motive was that I wanted to liberate our country from colonial forces and imperialist forces because our people were being under constant military attacks, assaults and tortures. And again, to boost the moral of our people and to secure a clear environment for victory in our liberation struggle.

ADV STEENKAMP: Help me if I'm wrong. I don't know the ANC policies as well as you do, but was it also the ANC policy to act against colonialism or actions, or can you explain what the ANC policy was regarding these attacks? How did you understand the ANC policy regarding the identification of targets. Let's start there.

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when it comes to ANC policy, the policy of the African National Congress there's never mentioned in its political history that we should attack whites in particular. And again there is no policy in the ANC that states that we should run amok attacking civilians, either black or white.

ADV STEENKAMP: Who gave you your instructions Sir?

MR NDLOVU: To do?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry. In the Wimpy Bar and the Katlehong incidents, who gave you your instructions in those incidents?

MR NDLOVU: Actually in that question, the decision was taken after we have met and we have discussed extensively about the presence of the enemy at Wimpy Bar, but Wimpy Bar, it was not the actual target, our target was these people who were murdering our people and sustaining apartheid structures within our country.

ADV STEENKAMP: And who did the reconnaissance in the Wimpy Bar incident?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I was given the mandate to that, to do that reconnaissance.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what exactly you reported? What information did you get that you reported to your commanding officer?

MR NDLOVU: Actually, the reports were as follows: Every Saturday, because the enemy spent sleepless nights working overtime until Saturdays, Sundays, during the week. The information was that the security, especially those who are from the higher ranks, were meeting there inside the Wimpy Bar to debrief their informers, to extract information from various operatives under their command.

ADV STEENKAMP: Where did this information come from, where did you get this information from?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the information, it was from the former political detainees around our country.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, help me if I'm wrong please. On your own you couldn't verify this, you heard this from other detainees, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: No, you are wrong.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain?

MR NDLOVU: Actually we got information from former political detainees, those who were involved in our revolution, that those policemen were buying food from Wimpy Bar and they are frequenting the area.

ADV STEENKAMP: But have you seen this yourself, have you seen police actually buying, Security Branch police visiting and frequently the place, having meetings with informers, did you see this yourself?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: How did you identify the Security Police, did you know them, because we all know they were wearing plain clothes? Did you identify them yourself and the informers?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I've seen them several times doing their job inside Wimpy Bar and so through continued reconnaissance we have decided, together with my fellow applicants, that our operation should be carried out.

ADV STEENKAMP: But how did you know they were Security Branch police but just visiting the Wimpy Bar?

MR NDLOVU: Actually they were using or utilising the cars which belonged to the state with the registration at the end, B and in the beginning, B. So that is the identification that this vehicle belonged to the state. Whatever they are wearing civilian clothing, an enemy is an enemy, it can't change.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you know there was a police kiosk just opposite the Wimpy Bar?

MR NDLOVU: Our mandate or our main focus was not ...[intervention]

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, my question is: "Did you know there was a police kiosk opposite the Wimpy Bar"?

MR NDLOVU: No, I didn't.

ADV STEENKAMP: Didn't you see it?

MR NDLOVU: No.

ADV STEENKAMP: If I put it to you that evidence will be led that there was a kiosk operating, it was an operational kiosk used by the police, or basically a small police station, you can't say anything about that?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is these are news and the new information for me.

ADV STEENKAMP: But Sir, you did the reconnaissance.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did.

ADV STEENKAMP: You frequented this area, as I understand from your commanding officer, not once but a few times.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, but the concentration was not on a kiosk, we wanted to hit the main target, the main planners. Kiosk it was nothing because let's say we have attacked their seniors, it will put a direct impact on the psychology of apartheid.

ADV STEENKAMP: My question is this Sir, the Wimpy Bar had a lot of civilians, we know today that no police were killed. Opposite the Wimpy Bar there are police, a lot of police, and you're saying now today that you didn't want to attack the police ...[indistinct] opposite but rather the one or two individuals in the Wimpy Bar?

MR NDLOVU: I've answered that question, that I couldn't know that there was a kiosk. If I'd known by that time I think they're also going to be our target because we wanted to attack the enemy whatever they are.

ADV STEENKAMP: Maybe you can answer this question, who decided to attack this Wimpy Bar on this specific day and specific time, was it you?

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Who decided on this specific day, which was a Saturday at noon, 12 o'clock, who decided at this specific time this bomb must be planted and the operation must be executed? Who decided on this?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the whole unit decided on that because we took a common grounds, especially on planning.

ADV STEENKAMP: So wasn't the reason because it was the anniversary that you decided on this specific day, not because people were frequenting this place?

MR NDLOVU: No, actually what I'm trying to say is that we took a general planning and we took a collective mandate or to execute the operation. And the other thing is that we were celebrating the anniversary of the South African Communist Party.

ADV STEENKAMP: So that's the reason why you decided on a week day, or early morning, or late afternoon?

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on a weekend, or during the week, or early morning, or late afternoon, why noon on a Saturday?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, we have to decide for Saturday because the enemy was supposed to be there exactly 12 o'clock or past.

ADV STEENKAMP: You planted the bomb as well, I mean the limpet mine, yourself?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did that.

ADV STEENKAMP: When you planted the limpet mine, did you see any police in the Wimpy Bar at all?

MR NDLOVU: Actually during the time when I went there to organise the thing we knew that their are coming.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, no, my question is Sir, according to our information this limpet was planted inside the Wimpy on a leg of a table, am I right? That's right, that's were the limpet mine was planted, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: Not on the leg.

ADV STEENKAMP: Where was it planted?

MR NDLOVU: Underneath the table.

ADV STEENKAMP: Underneath the table.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: And you did it yourself?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I did it.

ADV STEENKAMP: When you did this, this is my question, did you see any police, security, high brass police in the Wimpy Bar when you planted that bomb?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I've been repeating that the enemy by that time, they were supposed to be there at twelve.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you said repeatedly you knew these people, you identified them, you did reconnaissance. My easy question is, I think it's just yes or no, were there police inside the Wimpy or not?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that through my reconnaissance it's been said that the police personnel and those who belong to the high structures are visiting or frequenting that Wimpy Bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, when you planted the bomb, were there policemen that you knew of in the Wimpy Bar?

MR NDLOVU: What I can say is that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any policemen there?

MR NDLOVU: Is not(?)

INTERVENTION BY AUDIENCE CLAPPING AND COMMENTING

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to tolerate that.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.

Sir, did you check, before you planted this bomb, that there actually were other people or police close by the Wimpy Bar? Before you did that, did you check whether or not there were police close or even inside?

MR NDLOVU: I have checked.

ADV STEENKAMP: And what did you see, did you see any police close by?

MR NDLOVU: Actually through my reconnaissance, as I have indicated, at 12 they were supposed to be there and so attacking Wimpy Bar, it was meant for attacking, it was not meant to attack civilians.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, to be frank and honest with you, you knew very well because you knew the place, there was no police inside or even close to the Wimpy Bar. Am I right in saying this?

MR NDLOVU: No, you're wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: He just said so.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Did you get paid? How did you sponsor yourself, or this trip, did you get paid, did you get any amount of money for this work you've done?

MR NDLOVU: Actually we were being assisted from our frontal commands, to be sustained, especially financially.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is: "Did you get paid for doing this job"?

MR NDLOVU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] question was.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you answer the question? Did he answer, I didn't hear. Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry.

Sir, who was your commanding officer and who gave you your instructions?

MR NDLOVU: Where?

ADV STEENKAMP: For attacking the Wimpy Bar and the attack on the police in Katlehong.

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I said previously is that we took a decision together.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because I don't see that anywhere in your application which was submitted to the TRC, can you give an explanation for that?

MR NDLOVU: Can you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: I don't see this information anywhere in your amnesty application which was submitted to the TRC, that you took a decision collectively, and you don't mention anybody. Is there a reason for that?

MR NDLOVU: Actually through our organigramme it has been stated that our structure, it was structured the way it exists on the bundle of papers.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, I'm talking about your own application. I can refer you to your application ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: With respect to my learned friend, the organigramme was supplied as part and parcel of the further particulars requested by the TRC from all the applicants. It may well have been supplied by one of them but this refers to all of them and it would improper and unfair to say that this organigramme is not part of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Steenkamp, look at page 32.

ADV STEENKAMP: I've seen it Mr Chairman.

My last question to you Sir, I see here in your application you refer to page 32, paragraph 11(b):

"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"

What is the relevance of this information?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What's the question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman.

I see you are stating there, on the question: "Who gave such an order". You said:

"It was in line by ANC police to conduct such an act. The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"

MR NDLOVU: Actually we never instructed by Chris Hani to attack a Wimpy Bar because Hani belonged to the MHQ, he never issued out such an instruction.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me what your role was in the Katlehong attack?

MR NDLOVU: Which one?

ADV STEENKAMP: The one where the police were injured.

MR NDLOVU: What was my role?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes. The Lindela Hostel, can you remember that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I remember that.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell me what your role was exactly and your part there in that action?

MR NDLOVU: My role in that action, we went there to execute the operation by shooting at the enemy personnel.

ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on this specific place, Katlehong, was there a specific reason or not?

MR NDLOVU: Actually we decided to attack the enemy at that point because we knew and we were reconnoitring that area, that the enemy they are exchanging their shifts using that barrack within the hostel vicinity.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just indicate to me, as far as your knowledge serves you, as far as I know there are two incidents where people were injured or killed, this is the Wimpy incident and the Katlehong incident. Are you aware of any other incidents where you were involved in where people were either injured or killed?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that we have been reading newspapers. We couldn't go back and verify because the only thing we knew was that was an enemy, enemy territory. In order to verify we are supposed to be taking other initiatives.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, my questions are going to be in respect of your reconnaissance with regard to the Wimpy bombing.

I want to know how long it took you to do your reconnaissance in terms of days, in terms of weeks, in terms of months?

MR NDLOVU: Actually we took several months monitoring that area.

MS KHAMPEPE: How several, two, three months?

MR NDLOVU: I cannot remember because it's an old incident, but what I'm saying is that several months.

MS KHAMPEPE: With whom were you when you were doing your reconnaissance?

MR NDLOVU: I was on my own.

MS KHAMPEPE: And the information that you had received from the ex-detainees, what exactly did it contain?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the information contained that when people were being captured for being involved in the liberation struggle, they could be taken to Benoni Police Station and then during the process of undergoing severe interrogation, they could be taken to the Wimpy and those security guys would buy food and eat there, went back to the police station.

MS KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the people who were detained were taken to Wimpy by the security members, given food and then taken back to the police station for further interrogation?

MR NDLOVU: What I'm saying is that they could be taken there - let's say they are inside this security cars and so the security personnel, they will went inside buy food and then they will come back and take them to the prison. The other thing, they could go there on a daily basis for consultations or to plan other operations which we couldn't know.

MS KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the security members were frequenting that particular Wimpy Bar on a daily basis?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: And it wasn't that they went there on Saturdays?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what they were doing is that they could frequent the area every day because enemy we knew that it was operating seven days in a week, because they couldn't rest.

MS KHAMPEPE: What kind of information did you elicit from your reconnaissance?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the information that I've got is that the enemy forces were frequenting the Wimpy Bar and on Saturday, specifically Saturday, they could organise a meeting there or take their lunch after their ...[indistinct] or extracting information from their ...[indistinct].

MS KHAMPEPE: And how was this information obtained, how were you able to obtain this particular information with regard to the meeting on Saturdays?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I've managed to extract the information because I was also using a Wimpy Bar to get food and to listen and to see the environment inside, what they are doing.

MS KHAMPEPE: And in your frequenting the Wimpy Bar for purposes of collecting this kind of information, were you able to see whether there were any black patronage of that particular Wimpy Bar?

MR NDLOVU: Actually in my position what I've noticed is that if the enemy is within the given territory with the support groups, meaning people who are supplying the enemy with information, they could be there always, especially on Saturday.

MS KHAMPEPE: So in brief what you are saying is that you were able to observe black patronage in that particular Wimpy?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: How big was that compared to the overall number of people that you were able to observe, for the past three months that you did your reconnaissance?

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

MS KHAMPEPE: How big was the black presence of people who were patronising Wimpy? You were able to do this reconnaissance for the past two to three months.

MR NDLOVU: What I can say is that our people couldn't have a chance to enjoy themselves, especially in Wimpy Bars ...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: How big? I'm talking of numbers.

MR NDLOVU: Oh, the number?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR NDLOVU: I cannot remember but they were very, there were a few but what I can say, I'm not so sure if I can say there were a few.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to also observe the number of workers who were at Wimpy?

MR NDLOVU: Generally I could say they were plus minus 6 or 7, not so sure.

MS KHAMPEPE: And did you give this information to your command structure?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: And was there any attitude adopted with regard to the presence of black people?

MR NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when we planned to execute that operation, our main objective was to attack the enemy forces, not civilians as it has been stated.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. And how did you hope to achieve that, after you had seen that there was a small presence of black people frequenting that particular Wimpy? How would you then have averted a civilian attack?

MR NDLOVU: Actually I'm having a problem concerning the concept, civilian. During the year 1985, our comrade President, Oliver Tambo, once spoke about a civilian and a policeman. Now my problem is, how do you differentiate between a person in uniform and a person in civilian clothing but serving the same principle, being a policeman in disguise?

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions at all Mr Ndlovu, to avert any civilian casualty? Can you honestly say that you did?

MR NDLOVU: Can you repeat yourself?

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions to avert any civilian casualties, in carrying out your operation in that particular Wimpy?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, we did take precaution.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you explain what precautions you took?

MR NDLOVU: The precaution is that during our operation we knew that that Wimpy Bar, especially 12 o'clock, the enemy forces will be there in large numbers and even their recruits in our townships, to supply them with information and to debrief their agents. According to the area - according to the building itself, the Wimpy, it could not accommodate a large number of people and we know that by that time the enemy forces will be inside.

MS KHAMPEPE: What time did you go into this particular Wimpy to plant the bomb?

MR NDLOVU: If I could remember, if my memory serves me well, I was there plus minus ten, half past ten, I'm not sure.

MS KHAMPEPE: Half past ten.

MR NDLOVU: I'm not saying half past, I'm saying from ten onwards until half past, I'm not so sure.

MS KHAMPEPE: And the people who were there, were you able to observe any security members, of the people who were already there at 10 o'clock or past 10 o'clock? Were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

MS KHAMPEPE: Of the people who were there when you went in at past ten, were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?

MR NDLOVU: As I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence.

MS KHAMPEPE: You could?

MR NDLOVU: I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence by the virtue of, they are utilising their state vehicles, meaning that they could be around there or waiting outside.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any vehicles belonging to the state at that time?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, because I have been carrying reconnaissance against the enemy forces.

MS KHAMPEPE: So from your prognosis, you then concluded that there should be the presence of the enemy inside Wimpy?

MR NDLOVU: If they were not inside, it simply means that they were on stand-by to attend a meeting, Outside, they may be outside or whatever, corner.

MS KHAMPEPE: They would be outside until about 12 o'clock, because your reconnaissance had actually elicited information that the meeting at about 12 o'clock, that's your evidence?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: And they would be standing outside from about 10 o'clock until 12 o'clock? Could that have been probable?

MR NDLOVU: I'm not so sure about that because when I'm saying that - let's say somebody is attending a meeting, he can decide to stand outside. Let's say like he will be taking a cigarette and smoke for a while ...[indistinct] to a meeting or he is still busy with somebody.

MS KHAMPEPE: With regard to the Lindela Hostel attack, how many people did you actually shoot?

MR NDLOVU: Actually you couldn't went back to the enemy forces and ask them that: "How many people have been attacked"?, but what has been happening is that you have been reading reports from media, especially from Citizen or whatever newspaper, if I remember very well.

MS KHAMPEPE: From which position did you shoot at these people?

MR NDLOVU: Actually would you clarify your question?

MS KHAMPEPE: If you are unable to know how many people you shot at - did you shoot at a police vehicle with the "Kitskonstabels" inside the car or what happened? How did the ambush take place?

MR NDLOVU: We shot them while they were inside the thing, inside the truck.

MS KHAMPEPE: Inside the truck?

MR NDLOVU: Mm.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you, no further questions.

ADV MOTATA: Just two Chairperson.

Just returning to the Wimpy Bar incident. Other than the state vehicles, did you know any Security Branch policemen? Other than the vehicles you saw parked there and the assumption that it belonged to them, they might be in Wimpy Bar, did you know any?

MR NDLOVU: Actually their appearance you could see that this guy he belongs to the state.

ADV MOTATA: Wimpy Bar had the hall, restaurant itself for eating inside and there were people who could also dine outside, would I be right?

MR NDLOVU: If I could remember well, I'm not so sure about dining outside.

ADV MOTATA: In fairness to you, we have several statements that say some would dine outside.

MR NDLOVU: I can't remember that because it is an old incident, I cannot remember everything.

ADV MOTATA: Now let's return to your bundle, your application itself, page 32, paginated. In response to a question asked there you said

"It was in line with the ANC policy to conduct such an act"

And if we look at your application you are talking about the "Kitskonstabels", you are talking about Wimpy Bar, why now singular it?

MR NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

ADV MOTATA: If you say

"in line with the ANC policy"

then you say:

"policy to conduct such an act",

you are not speaking of acts and you are making application for several acts.

MR NDLOVU: What I can say, especially when it comes to the position of ANC policy, yes, it's being a policy to attack an enemy forces but not to attack civilians.

ADV MOTATA: No, no, I think we are at cross-purposes here. I say my reading, correct me if I'm wrong, I say reading this submission you are making, you say

"such an act"

and when we listen to your evidence, you are applying for several acts or attack acts, if I may put it that way.

MR NDLOVU: I think it was a mistake and you have to understand that English is not my mother tongue.

ADV MOTATA: And you say

"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"

Did Hani give you any orders whilst he was at the HMQ?

MR NDLOVU: Actually the orders that we have been given, we've been given the order during the time when we were stationed at Zimbabwe. And now it is being ordered that we should escalate assaults and intensify attacks against enemy forces and we have to take the struggle into the white areas.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.

MR NLDOVU: Okay, thanks.

WITNESS EXCUSED