Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. May I apologise to everybody present about us starting late. We are not going to put blame upon any quarter but we as the Committee would take responsibility for starting late. I am Motata, I will be chairing these proceedings. I am from the Transvaal Provincial Division. On my right I have my brother, Judge de Jager, also from the Transvaal Provincial Division. On my left I have Adv Sandi from East London.

I would, on that note, request the legal representatives who'd be involved in these applications, to place themselves on record.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo from East London. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm Jaco Kachelhoffer, I'll spell my surname for you as usual, K-A-C-H-E-L-H-O-F-F-E-R. I'm from the firm McIntyre, van der Post, Bloemfontein and I'm representing the van Tonder victims in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kachelhoffer.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Before we start we have these devices. Anybody who wants to benefit from the translation, it will be translated in all languages I'm told, but I'm not putting out my neck for that, that it's got channels. I know Afrikaans would be channel 1, English would be channel 2 and Sotho would be 3.

Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm ready Chairperson, thanks. Chairperson, the first applicant will be Titus Lethohonolo Lebea. May he be sworn in, Chairperson?

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, is it correct that you were born on the 14th of March 1971 in Vanderbijlpark?

MR LEBEA: It is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you are also a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you join the PAC?

MR LEBEA: I joined the PAC in 1988, on the 10th of February, 1988.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who recruited you to PAC?

MR LEBEA: It is Mr Jona Makara.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in 1988 when you joined PAC, PAC was banned. Where did you join?

MR LEBEA: We operated underground. It is true it was banned, but we operated underground.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, I think the question is where did you join the PAC.

MR LEBEA: Here in Mangaung, Bloemfontein.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, were you ever a member of APLA?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join APLA?

MR LEBEA: I joined APLA late 1989 and I was recruited to serve in the Task Force.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you undergo any military training?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you undergo such training?

MR LEBEA: I received the training inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do Mr Mbandazayo, where inside the country?

MR LEBEA: In Mangaung, Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say later you were put in the Task Force, was this Task Force part of APLA?

MR LEBEA: Yes, it is part of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may ask, what was the Task Force supposed to do because we know that APLA was the military wing, that it was waging the war. What was the Task Force there for?

MR LEBEA: The Task Force is part of APLA. It was established to protect the community against the attacks. As you know very well that the previous regime was attacking the Africans, it was basically to protect the community and to assist APLA with ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow. The purpose why APLA was fighting was to fight the regime, as you put it, that there must be a better dispensation, now when you say the Task Force was to protect the community, what do you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: This is what I mean. The Task Force is a unit within APLA and its function, as I already mentioned, it was to protect the community against the attacks. Let me give an example. It's like the Self Defence Units.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were these Task Forces formed?

MR LEBEA: They were formed in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Chairman, with your permission. Before you proceed Mr Mbandazayo, can I just ask, give us the name of the person or people who gave you military training.

MR LEBEA: It's Themba Ncapai.

ADV SANDI: How many were you whilst you were receiving training? Give us the names of other people who were also being trained.

MR LEBEA: It was myself at the beginning and later King Lebea joined and at a later stage Abram Donosi joined.

ADV SANDI: What was the duration of that training?

MR LEBEA: It was two to three days training.

ADV SANDI: What was the training about? What exactly were you being trained to do? What sort of skills were imparted to you?

MR LEBEA: It was a crash course.

ADV SANDI: Please explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Entailing what in that crash course? In other words what my colleague is asking, in that crash course, what were you doing?

MR LEBEA: We were taught to handle firearms, how to dismantle a firearm, how to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of firearms were you trained to dismantle and put together?

MR LEBEA: AK47 and the millimetre pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a millimetre pistol?

MR LEBEA: 9mm pistols.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly inside the country did this training take place?

MR LEBEA: I said the training was here in Bloemfontein.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly in Bloemfontein?

MR LEBEA: It was at Pelindaba.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and the Honourable Members of the Committee. Mr Lebea, you have already indicated that you were trained by Themba Ncapai, just for the record, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, Themba Ncapai was a member of High Command of APLA, died in 1992 in Durban. He was killed in Durban in 1992. He was from Tsandane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo, for this comment.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I just have clarity on this? You testified that the function was to defend the community, is that right?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Against attacks by the Government and I presume the army and the police?

MR LEBEA: Very well so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And against who else?

MR LEBEA: And to add on that, it was to target the farmers.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But then you're not defending, you're now busy with an offence, because you're attacking other people, you're not defending the community.

MR LEBEA: It was not an offence as such, you know that the Government of that day oppressed the Africans and I believe you know very well that the white people, how did they come here in the country and they were targeted, these were the people we were supposed to attack so that we can get the resources to use in fostering our war forward.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow when you say attacking the farmers was not an offence because my brother asked you that you were fighting the police, the army and you say: "in addition we targeted the farmers" and the question that logically followed thereafter was that that was an offence and you say no, it was not an offence. Were you trained to fight the farmers, or were you trained to defend the community against the police or the army? Let's get that first.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain here is that it is true, when the Task Force was formed, it was with the purpose of protecting the community against the attacks by the Government, Police and the Force. When the operation Great Storm was launched, we had to intensify our struggle for freedom by attacking police, the farmers, because these are people who had the economy in their hands. By so doing it was in a way to decrease the economy so that the white oppressors could leave the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me understand you. We have APLA, which is the military wing of the Pan Africanist Congress, would I be right?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would fight the army, the police etc., would I still be correct?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in the process APLA forms this Task Force. It says: "Protect the community". Did I follow you to this stage, that the Task Force's main aim was to protect the community?

MR LEBEA: Yes, according to its formation it was so, but when time went by, as I explained that the Commander of APLA, Themba Ncapai ordered us to intensify our arms struggle. How do you intensify the arms struggle? You instil fear among the whites, especially the farmers, so that the oppressive Government would hand over the Government.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Task Force was tasked to, over and above defending the community, to do the very job which is done by the military wing of the Pan Africanist Congress, do I understand you to say that?

MR LEBEA: What I mean is that the Task Force was doing what APLA was doing and it is APLA in itself because it was a unit within APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lebea, you are now applying for amnesty for an incident which happened in February 1991 at Mazelspoort, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who gave you instructions with regard to this incident?

MR LEBEA: It was Comrade Themba Ncapai.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also tell the Committee who identified the target?

MR LEBEA: It's Themba Ncapai.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who made the reconnaissance of the place?

MR LEBEA: Myself and Themba Ncapai did the reconnaissance and at the last it was done by myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many people were selected to attack the target?

MR LEBEA: Four people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, step by step, tell the Committee what was going to be the duty of each of the members of the unit who were going to attack and how were you armed, each of you?

MR LEBEA: I'll start first by giving the detail of each one of us. King's function was to be a security, to stand outside the door to watch out for anything that could happen. My duty was to repossess and to attack. Donosi's function was to attack. He was with me at the time of the attack. Samuel Mokweti's duty was to take the goods and take them to the car during repossession.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you armed and who was commanding the unit?

MR LEBEA: I was the Commander of this group. The AK47 was left behind in the car because we had discovered that it was not necessary to use it at that venue. We only had a 9mm pistol and a knife, a panga.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what were the instructions of Themba Ncapai to you? What were you going to do in that farm? Exactly what were you going to do, the specific instructions, or the specific order that was given?

MR LEBEA: It was to repossess what was taken away from our forefathers.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let's look at this incident, it's just one. You go to this place at Mazelspoort. What were you told to do at Mazelspoort by Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: It was to repossess, as I've mentioned. To repossess the items, to repossess any items, money, jewellery, guns, anything that would be of use to advance our armed struggle.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So do I understand you correctly, you didn't have to repossess what was taken from your forefathers?

MR LEBEA: That's what I mentioned.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And jewellery, how was it going to advance the struggle?

MR LEBEA: It was going to advance the struggle in this way. The land was taken away from our forefathers in the previous time. When you're talking of land, you're not only referring to land where you can plough. When you talk of land you're actually talking of so many things, diamonds and gold included and things like jewellery, they are manufactured from the land, from the soil, we were supposed to repossess them, so that we can use them in such a way that we would advance the struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you then, when you have repossessed the jewellery, advance the struggle? You have now got the jewellery, what do you do with the jewellery?

MR LEBEA: To sell the jewellery Sir, so that we can finance the activities of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told where to sell the jewellery to obtain money to advance the struggle?

MR LEBEA: No, we were not told and ours was to hand them over to our Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say during the attack King's function was to be the security to guard and see that nobody comes and yours was to repossess and attack, same as Donosi, who had also to attack and Samuel Mokweti was to take what you repossessed in the car. You had left the AK 47 in the car but you had a 9mm and a knife. Who had the 9mm?

MR LEBEA: It is King.

CHAIRPERSON: And the knife?

MR LEBEA: I had the knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

ADV SANDI: Before you proceed; so Donosi had nothing?

MR LEBEA: Can you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Was Donosi armed with anything? Can I take it from what you have just said that he was not armed?

MR LEBEA: He was not armed.

ADV SANDI: And Samuel also, he was not armed?

MR LEBEA: Samuel was armed.

ADV SANDI: With what?

MR LEBEA: He had a knife.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. Can you tell the Committee how did you go to this farm? What were you using? Were you using your own car or what, or taxi, how did you go there?

MR LEBEA: We walked.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then, on your arrival, give the Committee a picture of what actually took place until you had finished what you went there to do?

MR LEBEA: When we arrived, we inspected the area, as we had done days before, so that there would be no disturbances at all. When we arrived there, we used the front door to enter. Before entering, we gave out instructions as to who does what and who does not do what. We broke the door, we got inside and King was left at the door. Myself and Donosi went in. There was a dog inside that house, but the dog did not do anything. Mr van Tonder came, he had a firearm. When he approached, I saw him through the glass. I waited at the door and I waited for him to get out of the door and when he appeared we wrestled for the firearm that he had. As we were wrestling I heard a gun shot from this firearm that we were fighting for and I took out a panga and I worked on him with this panga. I was trying to get hold of the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get it a little clearer - I'm sorry about this Mbandazayo. When you say you worked him with it, what do you mean?

MR LEBEA: I mean I hacked him with the panga.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed? What happened?

MR LEBEA: I managed to cut him and I got hold of the firearm and I handed the firearm to Donosi, as I have mentioned and from there King came inside and he was called in by the sound, that is the gunshot. I did not see what he did when he got inside, because I moved on to the other room and I noticed that I had been injured. It looked like, when we were fighting over the gun, I think Mr van Tonder shot at me, but I only realised afterwards. King came in and they took things and I also left. They took me to the car. They took stuff and they put it in the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, you kept on mentioning the car, can you tell us about this car because you told us that you went there on foot, now you are talking about a car, can you tell the Committee about the car you are mentioning, keep on mentioning? Also the AK 47 was left in the car, now can you explain a little bit about this car?

MR LEBEA: This is Mr van Tonder's car that I'm referring to. We walked to that place, as I mentioned. On our arrival, the garage is outside, we managed to take out the car and we put it close to the gate. The car that I'm referring to is the car that we found at that place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you have keys for this car?

MR LEBEA: The keys were in the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now proceed. What happened? You said the others came and took things to the car, what happened thereafter?

MR LEBEA: We left Mr van Tonder and his wife there and we left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Continue.

MR LEBEA: We left with everything that we took from there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what things did you take there?

MR LEBEA: Items that were taken there were the firearms, shotguns, money.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, how many shotguns?

MR LEBEA: I think it was one shotgun.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So why did you tell us you took shotguns, you left with shotguns, if it was only one?

MR LEBEA: We found a shotgun. Two shotguns. You should also realise that this happened quite a long time ago. I would not be in a position to recall everything. Just imagine yourself. This happened in 1991, would you be in a position to recall every little detail?

CHAIRPERSON: To whom are you asking that question Sir?

MR LEBEA: It was not a question as such, I was just explaining that this happened quite a long time ago and I would not be in a position to recall everything that happened then.

CHAIRPERSON: Then please assist us, tell us what you remember and tell us that you cannot go any further because it's a long time ago and don't ask anybody or come with rhetorical questions that you should remember this has happened a long time ago. We are here to consider whether you qualify for amnesty or not and it is not for rhetoric questions that we should answer in our decision. We want to get more from you that would enable us to make up our minds whether this application should succeed or not. I would request you to do that.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chair, I will do so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were still mentioning the items and you were asked by a Member of the Committee how many shotguns did you take. You were still mentioning things that you took away. Can you proceed and tell the Committee how many actual shotguns did you take? You remember you took them.

MR LEBEA: I think we took two shotguns.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue. What else?

MR LEBEA: And money. I said jewellery, two shotguns, money and the vehicle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, proceed. You took those things, you went away. Where did you go to?

ADV SANDI: Just before that - how much did you take?

MR LEBEA: I would not tell you, but according to the estimations of everything that we took, it could have been R26 350. I'm referring to the value of all the things that we took. That was according to the evidence in court.

ADV SANDI: I'm asking you about the money, the cash. Didn't you say you found money there, cash?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: How much was that?

MR LEBEA: We did not count it at all.

ADV SANDI: Where was the money in the house?

MR LEBEA: I did not personally remove the money. The money was taken by Theboho and the person who was assisting with carrying the goods to the car, I took some items, but not money.

CHAIRPERSON: Theboho would be Samuel Mokweti because I'm hearing the name for the first time here?

MR LEBEA: Donosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you took these things to the car and you went away, what did you do with this, where did you go to?

MR LEBEA: The intention was to take these goods to our Commander Mr Ncapai, but unfortunately as I mentioned already that I was injured, we went close to Freedom Score in Pelindaba and from there I was taken to the hospital and I gave out an order. The night of the following day we were supposed to meet with Themba to hand over the goods to him, but because of the injury during this attack, I was supposed to be taken to the hospital and I ordered that these goods should not be placed at one place, they should be distributed so that if anything happens, they are not all recovered, they should be placed at different places.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell us, what happened, were you taken to hospital?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I was taken to hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you told the Committee that you gave an order, where were you going to meet with Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: We were supposed to meet him the night after the attack.

ADV SANDI: Maybe you should try and take this stage by stage. Who took you to the hospital?

MR LEBEA: Donosi and King took me to the hospital.

ADV SANDI: Now what happened when you came to hospital? How long did you have to stay there and receive treatment?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall how long I stayed in the hospital.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When they were taking you to hospital, did they use the same transport that you took away from Mr van Tonder's property?

MR LEBEA: Yes, the same car was used.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did members of your unit know Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: The person who knew Themba Ncapai very well was myself and later he came to know the rest of them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why did you say to - gave them instructions that the goods that were taken from Mr van Tonder's farm, should be distributed, not be placed in one place, instead of saying to them they must go and hand them over to Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: I think I mentioned that Themba Ncapai was well-known to me than to the other members and if I recall well, he met Donosi just one night. As the person who had regular communication with him, I was the person who was supposed to meet him. I'm the only person who knew where we were going to meet, how we were going to meet and when we were going to meet, that's why I did not order them to take the goods to Themba Ncapai and one other reason is because I'd already been injured and we were supposed to hide the tracks that would lead to us being arrested.

ADV SANDI: That is not very clear to me at all. Just explain. What exactly was the position at the time you committed this attack? Was Themba Ncapai known only to you, Sir, or did you colleagues also know Themba Ncapai? What was the position?

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is this. Themba Ncapai was known by me. During the presentation of the crash course, he came to meet Donosi, but it was just one day. Samuel Mokweti had also known him for one day. King met him quite a few times, but it was through me, but the person who was well-known to Themba Ncapai, it was myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What eventually happened with these goods? Did they eventually, Themba Ncapai, did he eventually get the goods?

MR LEBEA: Unfortunately the goods were retrieved by the police, but the intention was to hand them over to Themba Ncapai.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How long after the robbery did the police get hold of the goods? How long after the incident were you arrested?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall after how long were we arrested.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it a day, or a week, or a month, or a year? Long afterwards, or shortly afterwards?

MR LEBEA: It was a very short time afterwards, but I do not recall well because I mentioned already that I got injured and I lost consciousness as I was taken to the hospital and after how many days were we arrested, I do not recall, but it was quite a short space of time.

ADV SANDI: Could it have been a week, a fortnight, are you able to say?

MR LEBEA: Sir, I do not want to estimate.

ADV SANDI: When you came back from hospital ..(intervention)

MR LEBEA: But it was not a long time.

ADV SANDI: When you came back from hospital, why did you not take those goods to Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: I would not take these goods to Themba Ncapai because we were supposed to meet the night after the day of the operation. We did this on the 10th of February 1991. We were supposed to meet a day after committing this act. I was supposed to meet with Themba Ncapai and tell him how the plan went and where the goods were so that he could get them.

CHAIRPERSON: Amongst all of you, who was arrested first there, the four of you?

MR LEBEA: If I recall well, I do not recall, but I think the person who was first arrested was King.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I'm asking you this is that I've got records before me. King was arrested the next day, the 11th of February. Would I be correct? I know it is not you who was arrested, but it is King, would you recall that he was arrested the next day? I'm conscious that you were unconscious.

MR LEBEA: Yes, I would agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after King were you arrested?

MR LEBEA: I don't know, maybe the same day, or a few days afterwards, I do not recall well.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you arrested, at hospital whilst you were still unconscious, or where were you arrested?

MR LEBEA: I was arrested whilst I was at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that when you were all arrested, the goods were not yet handed over to Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: Yes, you are quite correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And did you after you were arrested, meet him again, or did he come to see you or any other person come to see you on his instructions?

MR LEBEA: We never met with him and nobody came to see us at that time, but we managed though to see members of the organisation while the trial was still on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were subsequently convicted and sentenced?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When were you released from prison?

MR LEBEA: I was released in 1998.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What are you presently doing?

MR LEBEA: Currently I am studying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where are you studying and what are you studying?

MR LEBEA: I'm studying at Vista University, doing a B. Com. Degree.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Lebea, what do you say now to the victims when you look back at the incident and take into account that time has passed and things have changed in the country, what do you say to the victims?

MR LEBEA: It is with regret that the incident took place and it happened to them. It happened to them because of the system, the system that permitted the white man to fatten and a black man starve. And I want to say again, I want to say to them, the system made them to be a legitimate target and I want to say to them I am very sorry that we attacked them and I want to say to them, I'm asking for forgiveness from them, that is actually what I'm saying, but asking for forgiveness means can they forgive me. It's not that I regret what I have done, because I was fighting apartheid. I do not regret what I did because I was fighting apartheid because apartheid was declared a crime against humanity. To them I want to briefly say, because I believe they are also the victims of the very same apartheid system and I want to say to them, forgive me

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, Mr Lebea, why should the Committee grant you amnesty in respect of this incident?

MR LEBEA: I think the Committee could grant me amnesty because everything that we did we did in accordance with the PAC ultimate goal of freeing the dispossessed from colonial bondage and it was specifically aimed at commandeering items which would be material to the cause, while not discounting the possibilities of fatalities or injuries and justification for committing this operation abounded around the fact that as oppressed, exploited and degraded, we had no other road of ...(indistinct) the regime through armed means as espoused and led by our organisation the PAC and the commission of this operation was within the bounds of PAC and APLA programme, revolutionary programme, so it goes without saying that whatever supported the regime both morally and materially and a beneficiary of a criminal and communal apartheid system, what was a legitimate target and I think it should also be noted that in selecting farmers as targets, we were not blind of the fact that most, if not all, farmers were heavily organised, were heavily armed commando units, either as police or army reservists. I mean this includes the fact that the whole vast tracks of agricultural land where Africans lived as squatters and exploited their morals with vast profit accrued from their labour, ...(indistinct) as colonial apartheid economy which kept the then racist regime in sustenance for ...(indistinct).

So it is within that context that white farmers were targeted.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's the evidence at this stage. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Kachelhoffer, any cross-examination?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr Lebea, you testified to the effect that you have decided to leave the AK47 in the vehicle, remember that?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Now can I assume that you have therefore regarded the target as a so-called soft target?

MR LEBEA: According to me there is no soft target.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Why, ...(intervention)

MR LEBEA: As I have indicated already that they were heavily armed, they were well organised so you cannot regard them as a soft target.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Why have you then decided to leave the AK47 in the vehicle?

MR LEBEA: We decided to leave the AK47 in the vehicle because we were aware of the situation at that place and at that time it was not necessary to use the AK47, what we would have used was the 9mm pistol.

MR KACHELHOFFER: What was the situation according to you?

MR LEBEA: At the time of the attack, the situation was that - in other words it was a cool situation, it was a quiet situation, we saw it was not necessary to use and AK47. We used a 9mm. The situation did not scare us that much, but we would not just go there bare handed. We knew very well that the Government of that time supported the whites and it was a white Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's have the situation about the van Tonders, let's just leave the Government out. You had planned to attack the van Tonders, what was the situation at the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: The situation was clear that we would be in a position to attack at that time.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So you have realised that it was a very vulnerable time of the day when you have implemented the attack?

MR LEBEA: According to us, yes, it was quite a vulnerable time.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And you also realised at that time that the victims were of advanced age already, is that right?

MR LEBEA: We were not aware of that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: You have conducted a reconnaissance beforehand, if I understood your testimony correctly. Didn't you go into this as well?

MR LEBEA: We did not recognise the age issue. It's true we did the reconnaissance but the age was not that important.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you see the victims while ...(indistinct - mike not on) Did you see the victims while you were doing this reconnaissance?

MR LEBEA: Yes, we saw them.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were they young people or old people?

MR LEBEA: I would say they were in those ages, but it was not important at that time as to whether they were young or old, the issue was to carry out the orders, not to check who was old.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja. No. I understand your answer then to mean you didn't worry whether they're old or young, you had orders and they could have been in the nineties and you would still have carried out the orders, the age didn't matter to you?

MR LEBEA: Yes, age did not matter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But didn't you take that into account in considering whether - what arms you should take with you when going into the house?

MR LEBEA: It is true, you look at the situation and you check which weapon to use in which situation, but what I can say to you is this, our function was to carry out the orders, we did not check as to who was old, who was not, but it is true, when you execute an order, you check which weapons to use and which not to use at which times.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Mr Kachelhoffer.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Did you, during the reconnaissance process, maybe consider rather to enter the premises during the stage when they were not present?

MR LEBEA: Not at all.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Now was it part of your plan to actually physically attack the people as well in the process?

MR LEBEA: Yes, it was.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So I take it that you will concede that you have indeed inflicted very serious bodily harm to these elderly people during the process?

MR LEBEA: I concede to that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And you will also concede that this has traumatised them severely as well?

MR LEBEA: I will agree with you on that as well.

MR KACHELHOFFER: In the light thereof, do you have any remorse towards them in this regard?

MR LEBEA: As explained earlier on that I'm asking for forgiveness from them, that's a way of showing remorse.

MR KACHELHOFFER: You have also mentioned earlier on that you have caused material damage to them in the amount of approximately R26 000. It was a lot of money for that time, isn't it?

MR LEBEA: Can you repeat your question please?

MR KACHELHOFFER: You also testified earlier on that according to your information you have caused material damage to them in the amount of approximately R26 000. You will concede that it was a lot of money for that time. That's about 9 years ago.

MR LEBEA: According to me that was a little amount.

MR KACHELHOFFER: You also testified to the effect that you have hit Mr van Tonder with a panga but can you also remember that you have in the process hit him with a spade as well?

MR LEBEA: No, at no stage was he hit with a spade. I do not know that version.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So according to you it was not even possible that some of the others hit him with a spade?

MR LEBEA: No, such possibility, Sir and the issue of a spade does not feature at all, even a possibility, the slightest possibility of a spade does not exist, there was no spade.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Why are you so sure about this?

MR LEBEA: It's because we did not carry a spade along. I explained the weapons that we had, an AK47, a 9mm pistol and a panga. The spade issues is a new story, it's new to my ears.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Can you maybe give us an indication of how many times did you hit Mr van Tonder with the panga?

MR LEBEA: I did not count how many times did I hit him. Under those circumstances you do not count as to how many times you hack someone.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, if I can just come in here. Just explain to me, whilst you were hitting him, at that stage what was your intention?

MR LEBEA: My intention as explained earlier on was to go and repossess. At the time of hitting him with a panga, the intention was to hurt him and to instil fear in him so that they could move away from that area.

ADV SANDI: Should I take that to - I mean what you've just said now, would it be correct to say that you didn't intend to kill him? Was it your intention to kill him?

MR LEBEA: I agree with you, the intention was not to kill him. Had it been the intention to kill him, we would have done so. I mentioned already that it was to instil fear in them. As you might as well know that the farmers have the country's economy in their hands, they are the owners of many hectares of land. Now the intention was to instil fear and again ...(not translated) the economy of the Government of the day.

ADV SANDI: Were you hitting him with this panga because he was preventing you from taking the goods you wanted to take, what's the position?

MR LEBEA: He was trying to defend himself as I was trying to get the firearm from him, but that was not the only reason that made me hit him with the panga. I have explained already that I did not hit him because he didn't want me to get hold of the goods.

ADV SANDI: So you could have taken the goods without hitting him with the panga, is that what you are saying?

MR LEBEA: No, I don't think so. I don't think it will have been easy, I don't think he would have given up that way. I'm explaining, I'm saying it was to instil fear so that they leave the property. Again it was to repossess.

ADV SANDI: When you were hitting him with the panga, in whose hands was his firearm?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall and I don't understand your question, whose hands are you referring to?

ADV SANDI: Was he still in possession of the firearm when you were hitting him with the panga?

MR LEBEA: He had a firearm.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: I think the Committee's question is, was he still in possession, actual possession of the firearm whilst you were busy hitting him with the panga?

MR LEBEA: Yes, that's what I'm explaining. The firearm was still in his hand.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And what happened to the firearm eventually?

MR LEBEA: Eventually I managed to get hold of the firearm.

ADV SANDI: When you managed to get hold of the firearm, did you continue hitting him with the panga?

MR LEBEA: I carried on, but yes, I went on hitting him with the panga after I had taken the firearm.

ADV SANDI: How many times did you continue hitting him after he had taken hold of the firearm from him?

MR LEBEA: I would not count how many times, but I think it was twice. I'm just estimating.

ADV SANDI: What was your intention at that stage by hitting him with the firearm - with the panga?

MR LEBEA: The intention was to hurt him, so that the Government would listen to the cries of the Africans. I believed that the situation in which he would be found, the Government would listen. That would instil fear in the white people as we made our calls.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman. How many shots were fired with the 9mm pistol that morning?

MR LEBEA: Just once, I believe.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And did it hit any target?

MR LEBEA: I don't quite know whether there was a target hit.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What kind of wound did you obtain, was it a gunshot?

MR LEBEA: Yes, it was a gunshot wound.

JUDGE DE JAGER: By a shotgun or by a pistol?

MR LEBEA: I don't know whether it was a pistol or a shotgun, but it was a gunshot wound.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now you've made a statement at this stage to the police and said that after you've obtained this wound, you were taken out of the house and you were laid down in a rondavel, is that so?

MR LEBEA: I would not say that is the truth. We had to deviate completely when giving statements to the police, we did not have to tell them exactly what happened.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I'm only asking, were you taken to a rondavel after you've been wounded and the other came back and entered the house, or didn't it happen that way?

MR LEBEA: That did not happen.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I see. And weren't you five people at that house? Didn't one Paulus Masitsa also accompany you in this robbery?

MR LEBEA: No, he did not accompany us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So he's lying himself when he says that he accompanied you?

MR LEBEA: No, he did not go with us, he is lying, Paulus Masitsa did not go with us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you go to his house before you went to this farm house?

MR LEBEA: We did go, but we did not go with him to the farm house. We used to frequent his place. During the reconnaissance we used to go to his place because many - they were selling quite a few items like liquor.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So if he's made a statement saying that you visited him that evening and asked him to accompany you, that would be a lie?

MR LEBEA: That would be a lie. I'm explaining that he was not present at all when we committed this act.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see you yourself made a statement and said after you'd been wounded you'd been taken to the rondavel and the other 4 went back into the house, so you're also talking about 5 people being involved.

MR LEBEA: As I've explained we were 4, we were not 5.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Are you convinced that only one shot was fired from the 9mm pistol?

MR LEBEA: I said I would not say I'm convinced, I think I said I believe the gun shot went just once. When I was busy hitting Mr van Tonder with the panga, that gunshot went off, the firearm that he had in his hand, the firearm we were fighting over and because of the situation there, a chaotic situation, I would not say I am convinced that the firearm went off once.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Do you know that Mrs van Tonder was hit in the chest by a 9mm round?

MR LEBEA: I became aware of that in court, but I did not have evidence to that and I did not believe that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Are you prepared to concede to that fact today?

MR LEBEA: If that is the truth, I'm prepared to concede to that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have got one or two questions, Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Lebea, you have testified that in your knowledge the value of the goods that

were taken or stolen from the van Tonder family was about R26 350, do you recall that?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

MS MTANGA: Do you know if any of these items that you had stolen were recovered by the police? If so, what items were recovered?

MR LEBEA: I believe the police recovered everything, the goods as they were.

MS MTANGA: Earlier in your evidence you indicated that you gave an order that these items must be distributed amongst your operatives, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

MS MTANGA: Were they distributed according to your order? Were they distributed by the people that you gave them to?

MR LEBEA: I did not refer to sharing when I said they should be distributed, the intention was to place them at different places, not just one place.

MS MTANGA: No, I understood that Mr Lebea, what I'm asking you, were they distributed according to your order? Do you know if they were distributed by the people?

MR LEBEA: Yes, the order was executed.

MS MTANGA: The reason that I'm asking you this is that according to the police information, even though the value of the goods that were stolen from the family was R26 350, the value of the items that were recovered was only R24 987, meaning that there were some items that were not recovered by the police and my question to you is, do you know what happened to the items that were not recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: I think I have mentioned that the police recovered all the goods. I do not have knowledge. Why am I saying this? I'm saying this because all that was repossessed, was taken back by the police and according to the information as to what items they found at which place, I don't know. You see you can't trust them as well. There's no way you can expect them to hand back everything that they discovered, but according to me all things that we repossessed were taken back.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, if I may come in. During September 1999, the office the Amnesty wrote to you asking further particulars, you recall that? You'll find that on page 4 if I'm not mistaken, of the bundle, you recall that? You and King gave a joint response to that, you'll find on page 5 and 6, you recall that? You may have sight of it.

And this response was November 1999, would I be correct? Look at page 6 of the bundle, right at the top. You and King Lebea say about that:

"Some items commanded were retrieved by the police whilst the intention was to surrender them to Comrade Themba, but unfortunately due to some problems, things could not go as we had planned."

The impression I get, I want to hear it from you, is that the police did not recover everything, that's the impression I get.

MR LEBEA: That is correct and as I'm explaining that all items that were repossessed, the police recovered, but there are some items, our items that were among the repossessed items and even today we do not know what happened to those personal items, they were not recovered, they were not even produced in court.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were asked - Mr Lebea let's just agree, don't say - we want a comment or an answer that we can all follow. You can't say in one breath: "All items were recovered, but some items were not." Please, we want to know what are you committing yourself to. Were all items recovered or they did not recover all items, because your answer seems to suggest that and please don't mix the languages. Speak your own language, probably it will come out clearer. Did they recover all the items which they repossessed from the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The money which was taken, was it recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How much did they recover from the money?

MR LEBEA: I do not bear knowledge to how much, but they found the money.

CHAIRPERSON: When you responded to the request and gave further particulars, you obviously spoke to King Lebea before penning down your response, would I be correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You never discussed what was taken and what was not taken before you penned down, you merely provided the particulars? Mindful of the process that you were injured and taken to hospital but this is quite late, 8 years after the event when you provided the particulars.

MR LEBEA: According to me the items that were repossessed were taken by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: So from your response and the question posed by Ms Mtanga, you cannot be certain that the police are lying in this instance when you yourself say some of the items were recovered? We are not trying to lay traps for you. If you don't know there's no harm to saying: "I don't know, my recollection says", there's nothing wrong about that. What we are saying, you cannot come here and say the police are lying when you have no knowledge. Do you follow what I am saying and approach whatever question is asked to you with that at the back of your mind. You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lebea if you say all items were recovered by the police, I want to understand now in your answer on page 6, why did you state that some items were retrieved? Whose idea was it between you and King to put that information when you were responding to a question put to you as to what happened to these items?

MR LEBEA: I explained that some items were found by the police and I do not know what happened to the others. I want this to be clear because when they were put before the Court they were not all - they were not produced, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - earlier in your evidence you said when you were asked what items, you spoke of two guns, jewellery, now you come back and say what has been recovered by the police is not all, what did you take and what made you know that not all was recovered by the police? What did you take because if you say not all, then it means what was taken and what was recovered by the police, wouldn't that follow? Because if I recall you evidence, you said it's a long time, it's difficult for you to know precisely what was taken and what was not taken. Now you say some items were taken and others were not recovered, you don't know what happened to those. What you are suggesting in that reply or answer is that you know all the items which were taken from the van Tonders, or would I be wrong, or I'm not following what you are saying?

MR LEBEA: You are not wrong. What I am trying to explain here is that all items repossessed were recovered by the police and among the things that were recovered by the police, or among the things that were repossessed, let me give an example, there were binoculars among those things and those binoculars were not recovered. We do not know even today what happened to them, that is why I'm saying and the things that we repossessed, the police discovered all.

CHAIRPERSON: If we follow your evidence up to this juncture, you were injured whilst you were wrestling for the firearm with Mr van Tonder. That is your evidence, isn't it?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you got to the safe house or where your destination, you were so weak that you became unconscious, I'm still following, I suppose, if I say so. Would I be right?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were taken in the vehicle which was taken from the van Tonders to hospital?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, before you were taken to hospital, after sustaining this injury, were you in a position to make an inventory of what you repossessed from the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: No, we did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you still come with the answer which I warned you against, that everything was recovered by the police when you have no idea what it was? How could you come with that, because you see why I'm asking you, in one breath you are asked the same question, you say all items were recovered by the police. She persists with the question, you say some items were recovered by the police and I do not know what happened to them. What is that? We don't know where we're standing and you have been asked this question for the 10th time, I've been making count, because the bench was also asking you that. Please assist us, we want to know and be honest in your answers, there's no trap for you, because we are not making progress. You change your answer in the same breath. Where are we getting? You may proceed Ms Mtanga. Please assist us.

MS MTANGA: Mr Lebea, will I be correct to perhaps conclude that some of the items that you robbed were not recovered by the police but you as an applicant here today, you don't know what happened to them?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

ADV SANDI: Just to take that one a bit further. When did you become aware that there were certain items which had not been recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: I became aware in court.

ADV SANDI: Did you take any steps to inquire from your comrades as to what could have happened to those items?

MR LEBEA: No steps taken, but I just asked King. We asked each other but there was nothing further to do.

ADV SANDI: Did King, when you asked him, did he agree that there were some items that were not before the Court?

MR LEBEA: He did not agree.

ADV SANDI: Please explain that. What do you mean? Did he say you are wrong to think that there are items that have not been recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: For an example, among those things there was something like a - there was something like a camera lens, we used it to reconnoitre the target and that was among the

repossessed items and that was not placed before the Court and that is basically what I was referring to, but ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: But that wasn't taken from the van Tonders because you had it before you robbed them, it was your own property.

MR LEBEA: Yes, it was my thing.

ADV SANDI: But were you the only one amongst the members of your group who was of the view that some items were not before the Court?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I was the only one.

ADV SANDI: Tell us where was each item recovered by the police? Where was the jewellery recovered from? Who was found in possession of the car by the police, etc?

MR LEBEA: I do not know what happened, what was recovered where and how.

ADV SANDI: What exactly were you orders in regard to distribution? What did you say must be taken to who and where? What were you - did you give and specific orders or did you just say these things must be taken to different places?

MR LEBEA: I did not give specific orders, I just issued out an order that the goods should not be placed at one place, they should be placed at different places.

ADV SANDI: Did you subsequently learn as to whether your order had been complied with?

MR LEBEA: I would not say my order was listened to because immediately after issuing out such an order, I was taken to the hospital, before the order was executed.

ADV SANDI: But during the time you were appearing in court, didn't you have occasion to talk to your colleagues and ask: "Did you do what I told you to do? Did you distribute these things?"

MR LEBEA: I talked to them at court.

ADV SANDI: Just on a different issue now. Who was representing you in court?

MR LEBEA: We did not have anybody to represent us.

ADV SANDI: Did you make any contact with Themba Ncapai after you had been arrested?

MR LEBEA: We did not have contact with him at that time.

ADV SANDI: Did you subsequently make any contact with him at all, at any stage later?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there was.

ADV SANDI: Where was that?

MR LEBEA: It was in prison.

ADV SANDI: What did happen? Did he come to see you there?

MR LEBEA: We did not meet, he did not manage to meet with us because he went to Groot Vlei.

ADV SANDI: I thought you had just said you met him in prison, you saw him in prison? You had no contact with him after that?

MR LEBEA: ...(indistinct)

ADV SANDI: I didn't get the answer.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is that we met in prison but he did not get us - he did not find us at Groot Vlei and it was when we were already released, when he met us here in Bloemfontein.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage later have an opportunity to speak with him and give him some kind of a report regarding the execution of an order he had given to you?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Did you ever give him a report about this attack? I'm talking about Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: Sir please bear with me, I did not catch Themba Ncapai's name. After the operation, we did not meet with Themba Ncapai, we never met with Themba Ncapai.

ADV SANDI: Did you send any request to the PAC or any person in APLA to try and arrange legal representation for you whilst you were going through the criminal trial in court?

MR LEBEA: The PAC was aware of the situation but we did not request any assistance.

ADV SANDI: Were you interested to be legally represented in court? What was your attitude in regard to the question of representation? Did you want to do your own - to conduct your own case?

MR LEBEA: The intention was to represent ourselves.

ADV SANDI: Was any report given to anyone in the echelons of APLA about this incident, or even the PAC for that matter?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there is someone.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MR LEBEA: It's Letlapa Mphahlele.

ADV SANDI: Where and when was that report given to Letlapa?

MR LEBEA: The person we gave the report to is Happy Mphahlele.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but when and where did you give him the report?

MR LEBEA: I have a request to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR LEBEA: I'm not feeling well.

CHAIRPERSON: Would an adjournment, because I see it's just about five to One, if we can adjourn for 45 minutes, have lunch, you would be better, or we'll look at the situation then when we resume.

ME LEBEA: I believe so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment now and reconvene at quarter to two. That is for 45 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, how does the applicant feel now? Is he in a position to proceed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, he's in a position to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just establish that from him personally? Mr Lebea, how do you feel now?

MR LEBEA: I feel much better now.

CHAIRPERSON: May I then remind you that you are still under oath?

MR LEBEA: Yes and thank you.

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi are you through?

ADV SANDI: Yes, when we adjourned we were at the stage where I was still asking the applicant about the report he said he had given to Mr Happy Mphahlele. Do you remember that Mr Lebea?

MR LEBEA: I do not recall. I was a little bit confused.

ADV SANDI: Do you remember when we adjourned we were at the stage where you had just said to the Committee you gave a report to Happy Mphahlele, do you remember that?

MR LEBEA: Let me remind you Mr Lebea, before you commit yourself to anything. At first you said you gave to Letlapa Mphahlele, the report and the question that followed thereafter you said the person we gave the report to was actually Happy Mphahlele, just to refresh your mind and I think it will be taken from there, but it would appear if I listen to you that when you said you were not feeling okay, you wanted an adjournment and I'll ask my colleague to start again from there, so that we have better answers when you are lucid. May you start from there, don't say this is what happened because he says at that stage he was confused.

ADV SANDI: Okay. Did you give a report to any person about this attack?

MR LEBEA: No.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you say you gave a report to Letlapa Mphahlele?

CHAIRPERSON: He was confused.

ADV SANDI: What is your answer?

MR LEBEA: Because I was injured and I was in the hospital, I gave nobody a report. On my release from the hospital, I went to prison.

ADV SANDI: At the time you committed this attack, were you aware that APLA was attacking and killing farmers?

MR LEBEA: It was an order given to us to do.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, listen to the question, Mr Lebea. The question is, whilst you were in hospital, APLA cadres were attacking farmers and killing them. Are you aware of that?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Let me try and summarise all the questions I was going to ask you and ask them in one form. You say ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the interpreters require a moment so that the system is corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could the interpreters talk so that we could hear whether it's coming through.

INTERPRETATION: And Chairperson the witness just ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I follow because I have tuned into Sotho channel and what he's saying to the applicant is that the sound might just be too much if it comes to both ears, so he must close one of his ears to get it right. I would add and say, if you look at your gadget, on the other side there is the volume. Adjust that volume to suit your ears.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Let me just ask you one question and put everything together. Why did you not kill the van Tonders to pressurise the Government of the day to listen to what you've referred to as the cries of the African people? Why didn't you just kill them in the same way that other APLA cadres were doing in other parts of the country?

MR LEBEA: I believe the situation would have determined whether we killed them or not, but I've explained already that it was to instil fear in them so that they can move away from that area.

ADV SANDI: Did you personally agree with the killing of farmers by APLA?

MR LEBEA: No.

ADV SANDI: Why not?

MR LEBEA: I believe I explained initially that they were selected as targets and it would depend on whether they are killed or they are not killed.

ADV SANDI: I don't follow this. Anyway I'll just leave you. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I want you to look at page 5. I've asked you earlier about a fifth person being involved and you said no, only four of you were involved. Towards the middle of paragraph 21

"After a thorough reconnaissance I came to the conclusion that it will be attacked by a unit of 5 armed with one AK rifle and a knife."

Who would have been the fifth person?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I decided that the unit will be formed out of 5 people, but there was no 5th person according to the situation. We attacked, four of us, but during the reconnaissance and according to that area and according to the plan, 5 people were envisaged for the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How many people were in your unit?

MR LEBEA: 4 people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, you've been a Commander of a unit, isn't that correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did your whole unit consist of 4 people, or more than 4 people?

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain is that in our unit we were 5, but during the commission of this act, we were 4. The decision taken was that it will be 5 people to form this unit, but at the commission of this offence, it was only 4 people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you persist that Paulus Masitsa, he didn't go with you to the house, and didn't enter the house, he wasn't with you that evening at all. Is that correct, or was he with you but he didn't enter the house?

MR LEBEA: Paulus Masitsa was not part of this at all.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You hadn't seen him that evening at all?

MR LEBEA: I did see him, but he was not part of this.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you see him?

MR LEBEA: We saw Paulus Masitsa at his home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So before going to this house, you went to Paulus's house?

MR LEBEA: I would say so, yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What was the purpose of going to his house?

MR LEBEA: The purpose was to wind time and they were selling drinks and cool drinks and beer, so we just went there to cover the time, so that we could go for our mission.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja, but the fact that they were selling cool drinks and liquor and beer, what has this got to do with this case? Did you drink anything there?

MR LEBEA: They are not related. We just used his home as our place of stopping by on our way to the area.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was he staying on the same farm as the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: I would say he was living close to that area.

CHAIRPERSON: To all the legal representatives, I tender apologies from the Panel. I should have advised you earlier that we would - the Panel would also ask questions, but if there is any re-examination it would cover everything, but that doesn't exclude you to traverse some of the questions asked by the Panel. Mr Lebea, you were injured. Where were you injured on your body?

MR LEBEA: I was injured here.

CHAIRPERSON: From your left-hand side?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this AK47, the 9mm, the knife, but as you were testifying you spoke of a panga, where did you get this weaponry from?

MR LEBEA: These weapons were received from the APLA Commander Themba Ncapai.

CHAIRPERSON: When because at least we know that on the 10th of February 1991 you had them, when did you receive them from Themba Ncapai or when were they given to you by Themba?

MR LEBEA: These weapons were given to us early in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did Themba Ncapai identify the farm of the van Tonders as the target?

MR LEBEA: I bear no knowledge to that. I don't know when did he identify them as targets because what he did, he gave us the weapons early in January. Around the 15th of January, I only knew about the target. It was around the 15th when he told me about the target. When he identified the target, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When he initially gave you the AK47, the 9mm, let's call that the weaponry, was it before you were told about the identification of the target?

MR LEBEA: He first told us about the target.

CHAIRPERSON: It's because - I just want to get clarity on which came first, the identification of the target or the handing over of the weaponry, which took place first?

MR LEBEA: What I'm explaining is that he told us about the target before giving us the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: But if I followed you what confuses me is that you mentioned the date, the 15th of January, that's when you knew about the target, would I be correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And earlier when I (...end of tape) to you early in January, do you recall that?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you look at the 15th of January, that is not early January, it's the middle of January. Would I be mistaken about that?

MR LEBEA: You are not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: So help me out, now at least we can put the date about knowledge of the target, that it is the 15th of January, how long after you knew of the target were you given this weaponry?

MR LEBEA: May you repeat your question please?

CHAIRPERSON: I say you knew about the target on the 15th of January from Themba Ncapai, I take it, would I be right? Because he's the person who identified the target.

MR LEBEA: Yes, on the 15th we knew what the target would be.

CHAIRPERSON: And upon a question I asked you which took place first, is it the identification of the target or the handing over of the weaponry, your response thereto was that you knew about the target and the delivery of the weaponry was subsequent to that. You recall your response?

MR LEBEA: I recall that response.

CHAIRPERSON: No my question is because we have identified at least a date when we knew the target that the van Tonders were the target of your attack, after you had been told on the 15th of January that you should attack the van Tonder's farm and repossess, when thereafter was the weaponry delivered to you?

MR LEBEA: We were handed the weaponry a week afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: So we are looking closer to the 22nd of January, would I be correct? Nor precisely just the 22nd but closer to that date?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I'm merely doing arithmetic. 15 plus 7 is 22 to me.

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When he handed you the weaponry, where were the other comrades, that is members of your unit, the other three, Donosi, King Lebea, Samuel Mokweti, where were they when you were handed the weaponry?

MR LEBEA: When we were handed over the weaponry, they were present and those who were present were King, Donosi joined later together with Samuel Mokweti.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Donosi and Samuel Mokweti joined later, what do you mean, because my question was when you were handed the weaponry where were they? When you say they joined later, what do you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: When the weaponry arrived at me, they were not present, they arrived after the weaponry was delivered.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Donosi and Samuel Mokweti?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: King Lebea, where was he?

MR LEBEA: When the weaponry arrived and it was myself and King present, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti arrived later.

CHAIRPERSON: After delivery, they did not see Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: They saw Themba Ncapai, when they arrived he was still there and they would normally arrive at round about 6, 7 or 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: You're referring to Donosi and Samuel Mokweti?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A question was asked early in the proceedings that - or rather let me put it this way. You response to the question was that the others who belonged to your unit, came to know Themba Ncapai later, you recall saying so?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to find out from you, when you say they met him later, what did you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: What I was explaining is that they knew him later, that is when he was coming to offer the crash course.

CHAIRPERSON: They were also in other words trained by him?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then at least we know of two occasions now that is when they received the crash course from Themba Ncapai and upon the day he delivered weapons, they met Themba again. Would I be correct? I say firstly we know from you that you say the first time they met Themba Ncapai is when he gave them the crash course in assembling, dismantling AK47's, 9mm, that we know. Would I be right this far?

MR LEBEA: You are right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I say the second occasion is when the weaponry was delivered round about the 22nd of January they met him again.

MR LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Hence I say assist me - listen, hence I say assist me because I asked you specifically when Themba Ncapai delivered the weaponry, where were the other three. Your response, let me assist you so that we understand each other, you said there was King, Donosi and Samuel came later and they usually come round about 7. I asked you was Ncapai gone by then, you said no they met him he was around, but he had already delivered the weaponry. Would I be correct or was I following you?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I said King, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti have at least met Themba twice, crash course and when the weaponry was delivered, even though they came after the weaponry was delivered, but they found him there, would I be right?

MR LEBEA: No, Sir, they met with him only a day.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow now. What do you mean they met him only a day? I don't follow what you are saying now. Really I don't, assist me.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to say is they met him a day when he was coming to offer those crash courses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LEBEA: And at that time I was the person who used to meet regularly with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get to the end of this once and for all. On the day Themba delivered the weaponry, did Donosi, King and Samuel Mokweti see him, not actually delivering the weapons but on that particular day, that is round about the 22nd of January, did they see him?

MR LEBEA: I do not catch the question. When he brought the weapons?

CHAIRPERSON: Look Sir, let me assist you. You say on the 15th of January, that's when you knew about the target. Do we hear each other correctly that far?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say again a week thereafter and the 22nd take it, it was my suggestion, it did not come from you, when I mentioned the 22nd it's a week after the 15th, Themba Ncapai delivered the weapons, the AK47, the 9mm and the knife or the panga, is that not so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm saying on this particular day, the week after the identification of the target, when Themba Ncapai was with you handing you over the weaponry, did Donosi, King and Samuel Mokweti see Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: What I'm explaining is that Donosi and Samuel Mokweti saw Themba Ncapai once. They saw him after a week bringing the weapons. I'm the person who met with Themba Ncapai.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is simple, I'm not laying any traps. There are no booby traps here. What I'm saying, if Themba gave them a crash course for a day, that was well before the 15th of January, wouldn't that be so? Do you follow what I am trying to say? Okay let's put it this way. ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I perhaps? When did you receive this crash course?

MR LEBEA: I received the crash course on the 15th when Themba brought the weaponry,

JUDGE DE JAGER: The same day? He handed the weapons to you on the same day that you received the crash course, but you had a crash course for three days, not for one day.

MR LEBEA: That's so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why now you try to switch round?

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, were you together on a particular day with Themba Ncapai, where King, Donosi and Samuel Mokweti were present?

MR LEBEA: Yes, there is such a day.

CHAIRPERSON: That is before they received their crash course independently?

MR LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you all receive the crash course at the same time? I'm talking about your unit of 4?

MR LEBEA: I got the crash course before and I got another crash course together with them.

CHAIRPERSON: So your crash course was more than three days, would I be right, just from the response you gave?

MR LEBEA: I received a crash course for three days and the last time we were all together.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the day of the delivery of the weaponry?

MR LEBEA: The weapons were present at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You introduced them to Themba Ncapai as the Commander?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Themba was happy that they should belong to your unit to go for this target that had been identified on the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it important because he has trained people, he has given weaponry to these people, that you had to deliver the repossessed item personally, not by other people he has met and even trained and given his approval that they should belong to your unit? Why was that so important that you had specifically to deliver the repossessed items to Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: He operated underground.

CHAIRPERSON: Same as you, you were also operating underground, that's what you told us just at the beginning of your testimony that you operated underground.

MR LEBEA: That is so, but because I had a lot of contact with Themba, it was supposed to be me who gets into contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the instructions he gave, that after repossession you personally should bring the repossessed items to him?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's just get to this last item which I still seek clarity from you. You have reconnoitred the farm at Mazelspoort and according to what my brother showed you in the papers, that you had identified it as an operation that had to be done by 5 people, you recall saying so and you were referred to page 5 of the bundle?

MR LEBEA: I recall.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you did not have the 5th person, is that correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct. When we committed this act, we did not have the fifth person.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said according to your reconnaissance, the situation did not demand when you were there now on the 10th of February 1991 that the AK 47 should be used, it was placed in a car, you recall that?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you had done some reconnaissance, why take the AK47 and put it in the car because the situation did not demand an AK47?

MR LEBEA: You would not think that the situation would stay the same for ever. Yes we did the reconnaissance, that is true, but we would not just go bare-handed and not knowing what is it that we'd get. We knew these people were always armed. At the time of the commitment of the act, we saw that it would not be necessary to use the AK and that decision was taken whilst we were already inside the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but still, you don't know what the situation is like. You get there, before you even go into the house, you place the AK47 in the car and we know these people are armed. I can't follow really, assist me. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't follow. I have this deadly weapon with a 9mm, a panga and before I realise what is happening in the house, I put the AK47 in the car. Is it rational to do that if you did not know the situation entirely out of your reconnaissance, is that rational?

MR LEBEA: I'm saying, when we were at the area we discovered that we should leave the AK47 in the car and rather use the other weapons that we had.

CHAIRPERSON: And that flows from your reconnaissance. If you leave the AK 47 in the car, the panga and the 9mm would suffice, wouldn't it, because that's what happened, at least according to your testimony.

MR LEBEA: Yes. To do the work at that time, we discovered that that was enough but from the planning, we planned that the AK would be necessary. In case the police are summoned by people close to that area, so that we could be in a position to protect ourselves, but at the time of the commitment of the act, we saw that it was not necessary to use it at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You go there, your reconnaissance, I take it, was looking at the farm and the people who occupied the farm and it transpired that it was these elderly people who were living there. Would I be correct in this instance?

MR LEBEA: We knew it was them residing there.

CHAIRPERSON: And the planning was that you go at the dead of the night, wouldn't that be so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: You arrive, you take the AK47, before you do anything, you put it in the car, you break down the door, you enter the house. That is your evidence isn't it?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You even tackle Mr van Tonder with a panga when he had a shotgun and your AK47 is outside?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the situation allowed for that according to your reconnaissance?

MR LEBEA: The issue is, you do not be in a position to know before hand what was going to transpire. Anything could have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Now - I'm sorry, continue, I'm sorry.

MR LEBEA: Leaving the AK47 in the vehicle was after discovering that we would not use it for repossession, we were going to use it for protection purposes, in case the police would be summoned to the area or maybe problems, obstacles hindering us to carry our mission forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this target was attacked less than a month when it was identified, would I be correct? You knew in all fairness to you about the target on the 15th of January 1991 and the target was attacked on the 10th of February 1991, which is less than a month, or lets say 5 days less than a month. Would you agree with my arithmetic there?

MR LEBEA: I would not dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on the 15th of January when you knew of the target, thereafter you did some reconnaissance yourself, isn't it so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you reconnoitre the place?

MR LEBEA: I took days.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us an approximation please.

MR LEBEA: I took some days, even if I did not go on a daily basis, but I think I took time up to a point where we made a decision that on the 10th we were going to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day were you doing your reconnaissance?

MR LEBEA: I was doing them during the day and in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were absolutely satisfied in your mind that the two people live or occupy that farm?

MR LEBEA: I would say yes, I was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you give us an approximation? We know you said you did not go on a daily basis. Approximately how many times did you go?

MR LEBEA: I'm not quite sure, Chairperson, how many days because I was not counting.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I said an approximation. Mr Lebea let me be honest here. You joined the PAC in 1988, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You joined APLA late in 1989, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You formed your unit in 1990, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 15th of January a target was identified to you, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: A week thereafter, which is approximately the 22nd of January, weaponry is delivered, that you remember, but you can't even approximate really that you reconnoitred, you don't know how many times, when you can remember these specific dates, don't you find it strange really? Because I'm not asking too much from you, I say now approximation.

MR LEBEA: I would say I went there 13 occasions, but I remember on the last day I went there for reconnaissance, it was on the 8th, that was my last occasion, it was on the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: Of February?

MR LEBEA: I believe so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the attack was on the 10th of February, it can't be the 8th of January for instance, from what you have told us, it can't be, nor can it be the 8th of March, because the operation had been executed by then, so we are left with one month simple, it should be the 8th of February, don't say it can be, it cannot be, it must be. I did arithmetic at school, that's why it's so simple for me.

MR LEBEA: I personally, I went there for the last time on the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm asking from you is a month.

MR LEBEA: On the 8th of February.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Lebea. Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, let me start with the dates. You were questioned by the members of the Committee and you indicated that on the 15th of January, the target was identified by Themba Ncapai and he told you about

the target. Can you explain, at that time had you already undergone the crash course?

MR LEBEA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Had the other members of the unit undergone the crash course?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson. It's a week after the 15th of January.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry Mr Mbandazayo. I hear you say to the applicant he considered the 15th ...(indistinct), you say the target was identified on the 15th? I thought he said the 15th January is the day he is told by Themba Ncapai that he has identified this target and he does not know when he identified it. That's the day he comes and tells him that that is the target I have identified, but surely the identification of the target must have occurred before the 15th.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. Exactly, that is what I was trying to say, that on the 15th it was the day the target was identified to him by Themba Ncapai. Thank you Chairperson. Now yourself, by the 15th of January, you were already given a crash course?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But the other members of your unit were not already given a crash course.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson, they received the crash course a week after the 15th.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the 15th?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson. That is a week after the 15th.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I think I'm getting more confused. I must be honest to you. The question you are traversing, I asked it and I want to cover it in this respect. I asked the applicant: "Did you receive a crash course that lasted for three days?" He said yes and then he said the others received a crash course when I was with them, that is the last time after the weaponry, the day the weaponry was delivered and then I said: "You received your crash course on two occasions", that's the question I posed and the answer is not coming near to what you are now eliciting from him. Please go around that way to ask that re-exam.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lebea can you tell the Committee before the others received their crash course, let me put it this way first as it was put by the Committee. How many days did it take, your crash course?

MR LEBEA: It took 3 days.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were all those three days before the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson, it was before the 15th of January.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your answer? Are you sure about that answer, that all three days were before that 15th of January, are you sure about that?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson. I mean that is the course I attended alone.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you undergo any other crash course subsequent to - after the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson. It was when I was together with my fellow combatants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long that one did it last?

MR LEBEA: It was a 1 day crash course.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there any other crash course that you took other than that one? Did you undergo any other one?

MR LEBEA: No Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will then I be correct to say that you yourself you undergo crash course at least for 4 days, including the 3 days you were alone plus the 1 you underwent when you had your comrades, your unit, with your unit?

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you be able to tell the Committee just to explain how long was it before the attack on the farm that the crash course did take place?

MR LEBEA: It would be approximately 20 to 26 days. It will be approximately 20 days. I would say approximately 15 days to 20 days.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct if I say that this crash course did take place specifically in preparation for this attack?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And according to you, it was the first time that the members of your unit came across Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: Namely Donosi and Samuel Mokweti.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let me pass and come exactly again, it was asked many times, I've come exactly to the order. Can you again exactly tell the Committee what was the specific order that you were given by Themba Ncapai? Let me tell you what. Was the order specifically that you go to the farm and repossess whatever you can get or was the order to go and attack the people who were in the farm and repossess whatever you can get, or was the order that you go and kill the people who are in the farm and repossess?

MR LEBEA: The order was to repossess and when you repossess, you would not do that easily. You'll do all attempts in the sense that you will attack and at the same time you will repossess.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, with respect, I don't you have clarified my confusion. I'm still coming to the explanation, what I want is that I've given you three scenarios. The other one is to go and repossess. Of course we know that sometimes when you go to repossess, it does not necessarily mean that you are going to use force. You can threaten people without actually using force and you get what you want, that's what the first one I mentioned. To go and repossess you can threaten people and if they don't resist, then you get what you want. The second one is that ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Or they may even not be there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Of course, thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm indebted to the Member of the Committee. Or as the Member of the Committee, you can go there and you find that there is nobody and you get what you want without using force, anything and you repossess. Then the second one is that you may go there to go and repossess, but you also, instruction that you assault or you attack those people or whatever as you put it, to teach them a lesson, you know, whatever, to drive whatever point you want to drive across. The third scenario I put to you was that you are given a specific order: "You go and kill those people and repossess". Now I'm asking which one was given to you by Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: As I already explained, it was to repossess and attack. In regard to killing, that would be determined by the situation but as I've already explained.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now what was the purpose? Why - did you ask why he's saying "Go and attack those people"? Did you want an explanation, what does it mean when he said: "Go and attack"? In what sense?

MR LEBEA: You'd not question an order or you'd not ask questions if you were given an order. The main thing was that we should go there, attack and repossess. As to whether a person would die or be killed, the situation would depend or dictate.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It may have, the order may have been that one which says: "Go and attack", that you go and kill those people, because attack may entail even killing the people.

MR LEBEA: Pardon?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say that when he said go and attack those people and repossess, he may have been meaning that you kill those people, you go and kill them. It may have been the meaning of the word attack.

MR LEBEA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. It may include killing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But of course you decided not to carry out the killing.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson, it happened that we did not kill them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll move to those points I wanted to cover. I don't know whether I may do it.

CHAIRPERSON: You do it the way ...(indistinct - other noise and not speaking into microphone)...(end of tape)

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(beginning of tape) by the police?

MR LEBEA: I would say so, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also did you see how much you managed to get there? The money, did you count the money?

MR LEBEA: I was not able to count the money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also you cannot be in a position to say whether that money was ...(indistinct) that was taken from the farm. You cannot be in a position to say?

MR LEBEA: ...(no reply)

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were also asked about the question of a report and I understand that you did not report, or give any report about the incident, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: Which report?

MR MBANDAZAYO: About the whole operation. You were given an order to go and attack and repossess and you were injured and you were taken to hospital and I understand you were arrested in hospital. You did not manage to give any report to your Commander.

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson, I was not able to give a report about the whole operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, could I perhaps ask something for clarity? Did you ever in your life meet Mr Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Excuse me?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you ever in your life met Mr Mphahlele?

CHAIRPERSON: What he means is have you met Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I did, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you report anything to him at any stage?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson I did not give him a report about this operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see I can't understand why you at a stage said you did report to him if you've never reported anything to him.

MR LEBEA: What I said at that particular time I was not in a stable condition.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja but even if you're not in a stable condition, you're not dreaming about things that would never have happened. Perhaps if you're not in a stable condition something comes through that in fact happened.

MR LEBEA: What I would explain Chairperson is that Mr Mphahlele knew about our operation and then I knew him as Happy Mphahlele. I learned later when we were in detention that Happy is Mr Mphahlele. He knew about our activities even though I did not give him a direct report because I was injured and again immediately after this incident we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, when you say he knew about your activities, when did he know about this? We are talking of a short period here. 15th to the 10th of February. 15th of January to the 10th of February. When did he come to know about that?

MR LEBEA: Themba Ncapai told us that Mr Mphahlele knew about the activities. He informed us that Happy, a person known as Happy knew about our activities.

CHAIRPERSON: When who told you that this Happy whom you knew then was subsequently Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: This person whom Themba Ncapai said he's Happy and he knows about your activities, this Happy, when did you come to know that that man is Mphahlele? When did you come to know about that?

MR LEBEA: When I was in detention.

CHAIRPERSON: But if I recall your evidence, you were never visited by your APLA comrades, hence they couldn't lend help in that you should obtain legal representation because of this non contact. How did you learn about that?

MR LEBEA: I knew later in 1993, 1994, 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not detained then, you were sentenced, you were serving a sentence, you were not detained. You were sentenced in November 1991. 1993 you were serving your sentence, 8 years. Wouldn't I be correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say this Mphahlele is within the APLA structures?

MR LEBEA: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What position, what portfolio did this Mphahlele, this Happy whom you subsequently knew to be Mphahlele, what position within APLA or the PAC was he holding?

MR LEBEA: He was a Director of Operations, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That was told you when you were serving your sentence?

MR LEBEA: I was told about Happy before, before I was arrested, even before I did this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's make it simpler. We know that Themba Ncapai said to you: "Happy knows about your activities."

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And let's put them in perspective, your activities, because you executed one operation which was not successful in the sense that you were incarcerated thereafter.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person or the informant who came back to you and said: "You know that person whom Themba said is Happy, is Mphahlele." Who said that?

MR LEBEA: The person who informed me that Happy is Mphahlele, I think it is Pati.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you meet him?

MR LEBEA: That is PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Sir, the question is very simple. Where did you meet him?

MR LEBEA: What I'm saying is this. The person who informed me that Happy is Letlapa Mphahlele is Oupa.

CHAIRPERSON: But why don't you want to answer my question Sir? I say where did you meet this person who told you that this person referred to as Happy is actually Mphahlele? I say I want to know where you met the person.

MR LEBEA: I met him before we went to conduct this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not know in 1993? Yes, then it was not in 1993, would I be correct? I want you to assist us, we don't know what you knew and what you didn't know. We are sorry about that Mr Mbandazayo, we high-jacked, if we may put it that way, your re-examination. We apologise. We might have derailed you in the process but do accept our apologies. You may continue.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Well luckily you've covered some of the points I wanted to cover. You made my job easier. Thank you. Where I was going to, I was asking you about the report. You were arrested and you could not make a report. We understand that, you were in prison, you were in hospital and you were arrested. Now whilst you were in prison you were visited by, am I correct, where there any APLA members who visited you?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it seems as if we are back to the problem we had before lunch with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, we would want you to testify and answer to questions when you are in your full mental capacities and what I want to know from you, because we will grant you a short adjournment that you recollect yourself or if you are under medication that you do take your medication, but could we now get it from you about how long should we adjourn for so that you may just recover or your can whisper that to your attorney.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson he would like at least 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll be generous and grant you 15. We'll be back at half past three.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lebea, how do you feel?

MR LEBEA: I'm a little bit better Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I believe one of our technicians told me that you have problems with these earphones but you did indicate to him that you do understand English even though you would prefer to answer in Sotho, would he be correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So because they give you problems, do you think it would be much better that you get the questions direct in English and answer in Sotho because I suppose everybody here would get that translation in English.

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we want you, when you testify you must you know be able to have no irritation or anything that would distract your attention to what is happening in here. Do you understand?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. May we proceed, Mr Lebea? May we proceed?

MR LEBEA: Yes, you may proceed.

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (s.u.o.)

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: (Cont)

Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Mr Lebea, when we took a break I was asking you that am I correct to say that you were visited by members of APLA whilst you were in prison?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was their purpose of visit to you?

MR LEBEA: The reason for that was to come and see us and again to inform us about the situation which was prevailing in the country and then again for them to know exactly what happened that we ended up in prison.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, let me ask you this way. Were there any members of APLA or PAC who were sent by Themba Ncapai to you in prison, specifically?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson, that - he was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, whilst you were in prison was any member of APLA sent by Themba Ncapai to come and see you whilst you were in prison? That's the question. Am I right Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LEBEA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what was - what instruction was that member given to him to say to you or to do to you whilst you were in prison?

MR LEBEA: The person who came is Mr Mokweti. He was coming to visit us all and to inform us about the situation in the country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea the question was that I wanted somebody sent by Themba Ncapai specifically. You said there was somebody sent by Themba Ncapai to come and see you.

MR LEBEA: I think it's Mr Mphahlele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did he come and see you?

MR LEBEA: It happened that I met him in prison whilst he was arrested, but there was no person who came to visit us who has been instructed by Themba Ncapai because he died in 1992.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay let me pass that one. Now let me ask you this way. Did you write any report about the incident and give it to somebody to give it to Ncapai and try to give it to somebody to give it to Themba Ncapai about the whole incident?

MR LEBEA: Yes Chairperson. I make a report and give it to Oupa Kgotle

CHAIRPERSON: Just a slight correction for the interpretation. He said he wrote a report. Did you write a report?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you give it to Oupa Kgotle?

MR LEBEA: I gave it to Oupa Kgotle after we had been arrested. We were still on trial at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was Oupa Kgotle outside prison at that time?

MR LEBEA: At the time he was outside.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Chairperson. Just one point Chairperson, I've forgotten. Why, you kept on mentioning, you were asked the question why did other people not go and talk to Themba Ncapai and report. You were the only person. Now why was it so specific that you are the person that should report to him, directly to Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: I was the person who was responsible about the whole operation, therefore I was supposed to report directly to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there no provisions that in the event that a Commander is shot dead or is injured, he could not perform his duties, somebody should take over when you are incapacitated?

MR LEBEA: There was no provision made but I think it could have been done the other way round.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Kachelhoffer, any questions ...(indistinct - mike not on)?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one or two aspects.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KACHELHOFFER: I just want to know, is it currently still the policy of Apla to attack so-called white farmers or farms?

MR LEBEA: Please repeat your question Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Is it currently still the police of APLA to attack white farms?

MR LEBEA: Things have changed. It's no more the police of the PAC to attack white farmers, white people.

MR KACHELHOFFER: What are your personal viewpoints in this regard?

MR LEBEA: Pardon?

MR KACHELHOFFER: What are your personal viewpoints in this particular regard, in other words the attacking of white farmers?

MR LEBEA: Please repeat your question or raise your voice.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may help you Mr Kachelhoffer. Listen. He is saying personally, in your mind, what is your belief in regard to this policy of attacking white farmers currently?

MR LEBEA: The situation we are in now does not necessitate the attack towards white people. We are able to talk, then I would say we are liberated politically, we are able to talk other than attacking white people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Kachelhoffer on the question of amnesty and although it may be relevant in as far as other aspects are, but it wouldn't assist us in coming to a conclusion about amnesty and whether the requirements of the Act are met, what his opinion may be about attacks today or not, so I don't think it would help us in our problems.

MR KACHELHOFFER: This then also concludes my examination, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude Mr Titus Lebea?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, that concludes his evidence Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, Titus, thank you very much. You are excused.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm in your hands with regard to time. I don't know when the Committee is intending to adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: We spoke during the last adjournment and said let's go to 4.30 and see how we can go with your second applicant. I think I don't want to be arbitrary here. Does it suite everybody? We'll just take another 30 minutes and see where it takes us, is that okay? Thank you. Apparently there's nodding in favour of my proposition and my Committee's.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson the next applicant is King Lebea.