Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, may I remind you that you are still under your previous oath, that is the oath you took yesterday?

MR KHUMALO: Thank you Sir.

BONGANI KHUMALO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. I think yesterday I finished leading the applicant before we adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Coetzer, any cross-examination?

MR COETZER: Indeed Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo what does AZANYU stand for?

MR KHUMALO: It's Azania National Youth Unity.

MR COETZER: Explain again to us, when did you join the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: In 1991.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, is it correct that you testified yesterday that in 1990 you joined the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: My apologies Sir, I joined in 1990.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, is it also correct that yesterday you testified that Mr Makwara recruited you on the 23rd of February 1992 for the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: He did not recruit me on the 23rd, that is the day he commanded me.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, why did you then tell us that you met Mr Makwara the 23rd of February 1992 and that he recruited you there, not for APLA but for the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, the word recruit means he recruited me to the organisation. On the 23rd he commanded me, that was the day he gave me order.

MR COETZER: So is it correct then to conclude that on the 23rd of February he gave you the command after you were recruited in 1990?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

MR COETZER: Why, from 1990, there were no other instructions given to you concerning any other actions against white people or white farmers?

MR KHUMALO: He was the person known to me, he's the person I used to meet often.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe one can put the question in a slightly different way. What activities were you involved in for your organisation AZANYU before February 1992? Actions, I'm talking about actions, operations, what did you do? Was this the first operation?

MR KHUMALO: This was the first operation Sir.

ADV SANDI: Right, thank you.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, why weren't you recruited before for operations?

MR KHUMALO: I do not know. Had the Commander been here he would respond quite positively to that question.

MR COETZER: Very well. Mr Khumalo when did you say you met Mr Makwara?

MR KHUMALO: On the 23rd when he commanded me.

MR COETZER: And that was also the only day when you saw Mr Makwara, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: No, I knew him from the day he recruited me into the organisation.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, then you must explain. Your testimony was in your main evidence that you met Mr Makwara on the 23rd of February 1992. Furthermore you said that afterwards you wouldn't be able to meet with him because you were in prison, you were arrested.

MR KHUMALO: To clarify this, I last saw him on the 23rd.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He also testified initially that he was recruited by Makwara at the beginning of his evidence.

MR COETZER: I apologise. How often did you meet Mr Makwara?

MR KHUMALO: He used to come to Qwaqwa during weekends. Sometimes he would come for two consecutive weeks and two consecutive weeks he would not come.

MR COETZER: Before the 23rd of February, what did he tell you? What did he teach you concerning the organisation and their workings?

Most of the times he taught me about the weaponry, the weapons and even our chatting was basically about the weapons and how he managed to reach the point where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he teach you about the weapons?

MR COETZER: I explained yesterday that he taught me about weapons, the firearms and petrol bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of firearms was he teaching you about?

MR KHUMALO: 9mm and an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: What was happening to those? What did he teach you about those two?

MR KHUMALO: In other words he taught me how to dismantle, how to assemble them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that also mean the 9mm, to teach you how to dismantle it and reassemble it?

MR KHUMALO: No, just the AK.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did he teach you about the 9mm?

MR KHUMALO: He taught me to shoot. Most of the times he taught me to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of 9mm weapon, firearm was that?

MR KHUMALO: There are many of them Sir, I can't remember but I do recall he taught me.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow. Did he teach you about several 9 millimetres, how to shoot with them, or what have you forgotten because there were many? I don't follow.

MR KHUMALO: He taught me with those guns but it was difficult for me to recall, this is the kind of an 9mm he used, but I recall he used 9mm to teach me and an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Were all these 9 millimetres the same?

MR KHUMALO: I did not expect that I would be asked about them one day, so I did not take a good look at them. My intention at that stage was just to know how to handle and use a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you the reason why he was on each day teaching you about a different 9mm?

MR KHUMALO: He just taught me to shoot and to aim at shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: How many parts did the AK47 have which you dismantled and assembled?

MR KHUMALO: I do not recall well now.

CHAIRPERSON: We would just require you to estimate, we don't want the precise number. You can't estimate either? Very well, you may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you only learn how to use a 9mm or did you also learn how to use a shotgun?

MR KHUMALO: No, Sir.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo did Mr Makwara ever show you the use or how to use any other weapons, apart from the AK47 and the 9mm?

MR KHUMALO: I wanted him to teach me about shooting, that was my main concern. I just wanted to know how to shoot and he taught that. I wasn't concerned about the others.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you said Mr Makwara gave instructions to commit an act. Where and when did he give you this instruction?

MR KHUMALO: I was with him in Qwaqwa.

MR COETZER: And the date?

MR KHUMALO: Which date are you referring to Sir, when he was with me in Qwaqwa?

CHAIRPERSON: You have not referred to dates either, how could you be giving a date other than the 23rd when you received the instructions? That's the only date we know.

MR KHUMALO: My apologies. I did not understand the question. I met with him on the 23rd. It was in Qwaqwa when we met.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely where in Qwaqwa?

MR KHUMALO: We were at Phuthaditjhaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Tshabalala, did Mr Makwara give you this instruction early the morning or late the afternoon?

MR KHUMALO: It was in the day when he gave me the order.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How late in the afternoon? If you can just give us the answer very quickly. Was it 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock, over lunch or what time of the day was this?

MR KHUMALO: It was around 11 o'clock when I met with him in Qwaqwa.

MR COETZER: Mr Tshabalala, did you see Mr Makwara at a later stage on that same day?

MR KHUMALO: I last saw him on that day. Sir, please, my name is Khumalo, I am not Tshabalala.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, in other words the last time you saw Mr Makwara was at 11 o'clock the morning when he gave you the instructions, after that you never saw him again, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you then testified that Mr Makwara told you that he will use you in an operation but that Mr Makwara will choose the day and the place. How can you then receive the place and the date from him if you never saw him again afterwards?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I did not catch your question.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, 11 o'clock that morning Mr Makwara tells you that he wants to recruit you to go and attack a white farm. He also tells you he will provide the date and the place where this attack will take place, but after 11 o'clock you do not see him again, so he hasn't told you where Mr Odendaal will be on Katdoring farm. Now you want to justify yourself by saying that Mr Makwara gave you the instruction to go and attack this specific persons. Where did you get your instructions from?

MR KHUMALO: You did not understand me well when I put my case. I mentioned that he said, because there are many farms and he said I will choose which one I prefer so that I can be able to carry forward this operation. We did not just meet and disperse without discussing anything.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, I put it to you and in your evidence-in-chief you said that Mr Makwara will choose the date and the place of the attack and not you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not correct. It says the applicant ...(indistinct - interference with mike and then not talking into mike) evidence yesterday, you are mistaken there Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: In that case I apologise. Mr Khumalo, what was the specific wording of that instruction?

MR KHUMALO: He told me on that day, he said he wants me to go and perform a function where he would send me and he told me that I will go to any farm where I would be in a position to execute his order and he said I would choose a day myself to go.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't he ask you whether you knew the Reitz area?

MR KHUMALO: He did ask me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, whether he knew the Reitz area.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he asked me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So did he direct you to go to Reitz, in the vicinity of Reitz?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, because we were talking about those farms.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you couldn't choose a farm at Bethlehem, for instance?

MR KHUMALO: It was quite far than Reitz.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is could you choose a farm in Bethlehem? Did you have a discretion, in other words?

MR KHUMALO: I don't understand you, Gentlemen.

CHAIRPERSON: When you spoke to Makwara, you just said to my brother here that you spoke about the Reitz area. Now the question is, because you had to choose the farm, could you have chosen a farm in Bethlehem, other than what Makwara was saying to you? Could you choose a farm anywhere else other than the area mentioned, or the area you were speaking about when you were discussing about these attacks?

MR KHUMALO: It would depend on our discussion Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no discretion where to go, but to go to Reitz?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir, that is the place that was under discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you have to reconnoitre the farm at first?

MR KHUMALO: I'd never been to that place, but I just knew it by passing.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, did you go and identify the place?

MR KHUMALO: On the 24th when I was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you only took one day and the next day you attacked?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: The order from Mr Makwara, what did the order entail? What were you supposed to go and do at the farm?

MR KHUMALO: He said I should go and kill the boers.

MR COETZER: Just kill them?

MR KHUMALO: He said I should kill the boers and take anything that would be of benefit.

MR COETZER: Were you supposed to murder anybody specific?

MR KHUMALO: There was nobody specific that I should go and kill, it was just a command.

MR COETZER: Then why did you select this specific person?

MR KHUMALO: This was a vulnerable place to get in to fulfil the command.

MR COETZER: When did you discover this, that it was a vulnerable place?

MR KHUMALO: What is your question, Sir?

MR COETZER: When did you discover that it was a vulnerable place?

MR KHUMALO: When I met with Jabulani Tshabalala, because he is the person who provided me with information.

MR COETZER: What information did he provide to you and at what time?

MR KHUMALO: On the same day, the 24th and he knew the set-up on that house and he knew how many people lived there.

MR COETZER: Where did you meet Mr Tshabalala?

MR KHUMALO: I met with him at that farm in Reitz.

MR COETZER: So you went to the farm of Mr Odendaal beforehand specifically?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, that is after I had received information.

MR COETZER: After you received what information?

MR KHUMALO: I knew that the owner was alone. I knew which days the sons were visiting. I knew that he was indoors at which times. I knew how many safes were in the house. All those things Tshabalala explained to me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you tell Tshabalala that you wanted to know when the sons would be visiting, how many safes there would be, did you give him any reason for wanting this information?

MR KHUMALO: He did not ask. I did not make him aware as to what I was going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you known Tshabalala when you met with him on the 24th?

MR KHUMALO: I knew him on the same day, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the same day he volunteered all this information?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I arrived during the day and in the evening we were sitting around a fire and we were chatting and I asked questions and he managed to answer some of those - to answer those questions. He is the person who referred me to a place where I would be given accommodation.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you referred to to get accommodation?

MR KHUMALO: At Anna Magwa's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does she live?

MR KHUMALO: On that same farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you now call it her place because it's not her farm?

MR KHUMALO: It's true, that's not her farm, but the house that she lived in was her home, not the farm, it was on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Even with Anna Magwa, you knew her on the 24th?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just in conjunction with that, Anna allowed you to stay at the house that evening?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you and Anna didn't have any problems?

MR KHUMALO: No problems at all Sir, on that day.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Is there any reason why Anna would have lied in Court regarding what took place?

MR KHUMALO: I believe there is a reason Sir. She was one of the State witnesses, there were witnesses of the State.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You recall that Anna said that you arrived there before the time, that you stayed there 2 to 3 days before the time, that you departed and that you then returned?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, many times when people turn State witnesses they say something, their own concoction of the story. I would not say where she got that story from.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you do after you stabbed Mr Odendaal with a knife?

MR KHUMALO: Petrus went back, he went and stood by the gate next to the fence.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you take him by the arm and take him back to the house?

MR KHUMALO: No, that is not so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Weren't you afraid, knowing that he had seen everything that took place, weren't you afraid that he would go and call for help?

MR KHUMALO: I don't understand. Who would have gone to call other people?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Petrus. He saw how the man was being stabbed to death and you left him there outside, he could have run off and told others what had just taken place.

MR KHUMALO: He was scared and he just stood there and I called him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And where did you call him to?

MR KHUMALO: I called him to the place where I stabbed this white man and I called him to - I wanted him to show me where the keys were. He told me that the keys were with him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did he give you the keys?

MR KHUMALO: He showed me the keys, he showed me where they were on his person. I actually called him to search this man. He didn't, he just showed me where the keys were, that they were in the back pocket.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why couldn't you yourself have searched the man? He was already dead.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he did not search him, he just pointed. He said at the back pocket and I did the searching.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you have just told us ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR COETZER: You have just told us that you went to the farm based upon information that you received regarding the vulnerability of the farm, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: I went to that farm because it was the closest, that was due to the discussions with my Commander. In other words, I'm the person who went there after I have received information from Jabulani.

MR COETZER: Where did you meet Jabulani Tshabalala?

MR KHUMALO: I explained that I met him on the same farm in Reitz.

MR COETZER: But am I correct in understanding that you understood - that you went to that specific farm based upon information that you received from Tshabalala?

MR KHUMALO: At that time I had not received information about the house.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't follow. The legal representative said that you said just a minute or two ago, that you went to that farm because of information you received from Tshabalala.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, in other words I'm referring to the house now. I did not go to - not the house, not the farm, maybe we did not understand each other quite well on that issue. I was talking about the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, start all over again, because I did not understand you. I understood you as the legal representative has.

MR KHUMALO: I explained that when I arrived at that farm in Reitz, I met Jabulani Tshabalala. Jabulani Tshabalala gave me the information about the farmhouse. I don't know whether it's clear now.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, he gave you the information that evening as he was seated by the fire, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, we were now sitting down chatting and during the day I had also seen myself.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you need to procure weapons for the struggle?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR COETZER: What weapons did you obtain Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: Those I saw in the safe were these long guns and we normally call them pump guns.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, in other words you are referring to a shot gun?

MR KHUMALO: I don't understand what you mean.

MR COETZER: Was the weapon in the safe a shot gun?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct, they were long guns.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you testified that you received a 9mm and an AK47 and when you were examined regarding shot guns, you said no.

MR KHUMALO: Sir the guns that I saw I had never seen before and I'd never used them for training, that's why I'm calling them pump guns.

MR COETZER: Is it correct that there were only two weapons in the safe?

MR KHUMALO: No, Sir, there were not only two.

MR COETZER: And that it was only a 303 and an air gun?

MR KHUMALO: I dispute that Sir, it was quite a number of guns.

MR COETZER: How can there be a number of weapons in the safe if the deceased possessed only two guns, namely a 303 and an air gun?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I want to stress, what I saw was a number of guns, they were in two rows. There was a row at the back and there were others here to the front.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, the safe, describe it to us. If you open the door were the weapons packed on the left and the right sides, or from the back to the front?

MR KHUMALO: They were packed in a row, Sir. This safe is this big and they were in a row and there were others in the front row.

MR COETZER: Very well Mr Khumalo, you now have the ideal opportunity to obtain weapons for your organisation. Why did you take the smaller of the two weapons?

JUDGE DE JAGER: The smaller of the two, or the smaller of the lot because according to him there were at least two rows of weapons. Could he perhaps give us an indication of how many weapons there would have been in these two rows? 10, 20, 30, how many?

MR KHUMALO: If I'm estimating, there could have been 8 or 7.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you then answer the question of why you took only the air gun?

MR KHUMALO: I took a gun so that I could defend myself when getting out and I knew if I do escape and I manage to reach the township, I would not run with firearms that are not covered and maybe I could be summoned, the police could be summoned to come and arrest me, so that was my fear.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the instruction from Makwara that you should take anything that was to be of benefit to the struggle? What about your instruction now? Had you forgotten about it?

MR KHUMALO: I did not forget the instruction Sir, but what remains behind is, when you do something you check as to whether is this right when I approach it this way, is it wrong when I approach it this way? Now at that time I noticed that I do not have any chance to do anything. The accused had see Anna Magwa getting into the other house, so I noticed I did not have a chance, so I had to leave the farm running.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Coetzer are there any other aspects that you wish to cover?

MR COETZER: Just one aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you were aware that the deceased was going to sell his farm - sold tobacco on his farm (correction).

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I learned on that day when we were chatting.

MR COETZER: What sort of work did you do at that stage?

MR KHUMALO: What kind of work was I doing? Are you referring, was I employed? I don't understand your question.

MR COETZER: Were you employed or unemployed?

MR KHUMALO: I was unemployed Sir.

MR COETZER: So you were looking for money?

MR KHUMALO: Are you telling me Sir, or are you asking me?

CHAIRPERSON: It is a question Sir, were you looking for money? It's a question, you can't make a mistake about that.

MR KHUMALO: No, I did not want money.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but on the same aspect, did you have any source of income? How did you manage to live if you were unemployed?

MR KHUMALO: My parents were sustaining me, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Were your parents employed? Were they working people? Did they have an income?

MR KHUMALO: My father was working.

ADV SANDI: What was the position about Daniel Makwara, was he employed?

MR KHUMALO: I think he was working Sir.

ADV SANDI: Where did he work?

MR KHUMALO: I do not recall.

ADV SANDI: I didn't get the last bit. Did you say you don't know remember where he was employed?

MR KHUMALO: He was an APLA member and I thought he was working.

ADV SANDI: What do you mean by that? Do you mean employed by APLA?

MR KHUMALO: I mean to be an APLA members, yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, so your primary motive that day was not politically oriented, you were looking for money?

MR KHUMALO: That is not correct, Sir. If ever we wanted money, we would have tried many other avenues and we did not ransack the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't money have benefited your organisation?

MR KHUMALO: It would, Sir, had I laid my hands on it.

CHAIRPERSON: But your response to just the last question was that if you were looking for money, you would have ransacked the house and the instruction from Makwara, if I followed what you're saying is that you should get anything from the farmers ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: I beg your pardon, but the case you are handling is making a tremendous noise on the loudspeakers.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Khumalo, the instruction was that you should get anything that would benefit the organisation and your last response thereto was that you did not ransack the house.

MR KHUMALO: Sir we did not ransack the house. It is known that the money is kept in the safe. Now the question was I was looking for money, not I thought the question to me, I wanted money for personal use, not - so I was to kill the white people and take the important items. Had the money been there, I would have taken it for the benefit of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand the important items would be that would benefit the organisation?

MR KHUMALO: Weapons, money, if a vehicle was close enough, I would have taken it so that I could transport the items that I had.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo did you have to report back to Mr Makwara at any stage?

MR KHUMALO: If the mission was well accomplished, I would have reported to him.

MR COETZER: Why didn't you report back to him?

MR KHUMALO: I was arrested on the 25th. I did not have a chance even at the Reitz police station to inform him about my arrest.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Coetzer, if I could just come in here. What was the arrangement if there was any between yourself and your Commander? Where were you supposed to meet him and give him a report after this attack?

MR KHUMALO: He told me that we will meet during the weekend, in other words the day of the attack, the 25th, was chosen by me. Now in other words the Saturday, the coming Saturday we were going to meet and I was going to present to him the items repossessed.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if he subsequently became aware that you had been arrested?

MR KHUMALO: He subsequently knew because I was with him at Grootvlei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Grootvlei is the jail, is that correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you didn't have an appointment to meet him at Grootvlei?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, but it ended up being that way, we met there.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo please help me in this. You said the 23rd was the last time that you saw Mr Makwara.

MR KHUMALO: That was the last day to meet with him for the execution of the order he gave me but I never met him in connection with the incident afterwards.

MR COETZER: You said that you wanted to talk to Mr Makwara again, but because you were arrested you couldn't.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he was still - he was outside, he was a free man, I was inside the prison. As I explained, I last saw him there and I met him in 1998 here in Grootvlei prison.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, were you out on bail?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I was on bail.

MR COETZER: Couldn't you have met up with Mr Makwara at that stage?

MR KHUMALO: I did not get a chance, the right chance. I used to frequent Qwaqwa, but I did not frequent his place, Mutshabelo.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you think it was a matter of importance to meet him whilst you were out on bail and tell him things didn't go right and give him a report. Didn't you think that was important?

MR KHUMALO: It was important Sir, but I mentioned already that I - the treatment that I got at the station was not well, to put it clearly I was shot at and I was in pains, I even have the scar today.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but couldn't you send out messages to Makwara and say: "Please come and see me, I want to talk to you."

MR KHUMALO: I was not thinking well, Sir and I always thought of what the police told me. They told me that: "You are going to die. You're going to be sentenced to death. You are going to Pretoria." All these things combined with the family problems, these really worked on my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you shot at?

MR KHUMALO: May I show the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you cant tell me the anatomy of your body, not undress here, it's not a conducive place to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KHUMALO: I was shot next to the genitals, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Did the PAC or Makwara assist you to secure legal representation?

MR KHUMALO: I did not organise anybody from the organisation to represent me because I was told always that if you are a member of the organisation, they could kill you anytime.

ADV SANDI: Did the PAC or Makwara render any kind of assistance to you whilst you were going through the criminal trial?

MR KHUMALO: No, Sir and I think - I took the blame for what happened, so I did not involve them.

ADV SANDI: Did you require any kind of assistance? Did you need to be assisted with anything whilst you were going through the criminal trial?

MR KHUMALO: I did not expect any assistance from anybody and if the organisation had assisted me, I would have been known to be belonging to a certain organisation, so I was concerned with my life, so I did not ask from any assistance from anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you say they told you you are going to die in Pretoria? You would be sent to Pretoria. Was life a matter to you because you were in any event going to die, did that matter?

MR KHUMALO: It troubled me a lot, Sir and it ended up being true.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you told the PAC, you were still going to die according to what they told you, it did not matter whether the PAC knew or not, you were going to die, isn't it, according to what they told you?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, Sir, the police were telling me: "You are going to die" and some of them will say: "No, you won't die, there will be an appeal made", so all these troubled me and under such circumstances you don't think straight, you don't know what's going on. How would an appeal trouble you because you would probably be successful on appeal and save your life? Wouldn't that be so?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I agree with you on what you are saying but at that time situations were not like now as we are sitting here talking.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said earlier, if I may just continue Mr Coetzer, just this last question. You said you were given bail, you recall that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How much was the bail fixed at?

MR KHUMALO: It was R1 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Who paid the bail money?

MR KHUMALO: It's my father.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, I will come back to the money. Approximately R300 was stolen from the house on that day.

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I don't know anything about money.

MR COETZER: Constable Mehi testified that you threw money over the fence after you were injured. How do you explain that?

MR KHUMALO: Mr Mehi is the person who shot at me and they jumped the fence, saying they were searching for the weapons and immediately all of a sudden he came up with money, that I did not know where it came from. There was no exhibit from me, now they were using money to pressurise me and I did not know anything about this money.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to the purse that Tshabalala took?

MR KHUMALO: I did not check what happened to the purse, I ended up - the purse was in his hand, that's the last time I saw it. I don't know what happened thereafter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you were sent to get money and guns. Now you see this purse but you don't worry about what you've been ordered to do. You ignore your order to take money and guns.

MR KHUMALO: When I looked at the purse, Sir, I saw that was not enough money really and that was not enough money to even assist the organisation, that's why I did not even pay attention to the purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You saw it wasn't enough money. How much money was in the purse?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, by just looking at the purse, the purse will give an indication, that was - even when he had the purse, you could see that the purse had nothing. You cannot fit R40 000 in that purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you were not ordered to get R40 000, you were ordered to get money for the organisation and even

R1 000 or R2 000 or R100 could assist them.

MR KHUMALO: Sir, when I looked at the purse, I thought the purse did not have anything inside, that's why I did not pay too much attention to the purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, Sir, you've told us a minute ago it didn't have enough money. Now it's no - it didn't have anything in the purse, what's the truth now? Thank you.

MR KHUMALO: When I say the purse did not have money, I'm not saying the purse did not have money at all, what I'm saying is that little amount that was inside, he had this purse in his hand and according to how he handled the purse, I did not see whether there was money inside, but the way he handled the purse, that to me was an indication that there was no money in the purse and one other thing, we wanted to run away at that same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo Tuesday the 24th of February you arrived on the farm for the first time. Makwara, Dladla and yourself testified in the court case that you've already arrived on the farm before the 24th. Why are you not telling the truth?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, what I said in Court was the way of defending myself. There was pressure from the accused, from the co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may, Mr Coetzer. You say you were - there was pressure that I think Jabulani Tshabalala was testifying against you, saying things which were not true against you. Am I hearing you to say that?

MR KHUMALO: He was saying things against me, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In Court, who was accused number 1?

MR KHUMALO: I was accused number 1.

CHAIRPERSON: And between you and Tshabalala, who testified first?

MR KHUMALO: It's me Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Tshabalala I take it testified after you?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he pressurised you after you had testified?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I had already testified and what he said in Court was considered.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you testified, you were not saying anything against him?

MR KHUMALO: I did not pressurise him on anything, Sir, I did not say anything against him and the focus was my running away and that I ended up being shot at. The killing of the farmer was my - it was placed upon my shoulders, but on many instances he put pressure on some of - on the issues.

CHAIRPERSON: When you testified, who did you say killed the farmer? You said you did.

MR KHUMALO: I said myself Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did Tshabalala do? What did you say his role was? I say, according to your testimony, what was Tshabalala's role?

MR KHUMALO: The role played by Tshabalala was to show me where the key to the safe was and he did not do anything really and the purse that has been referred to, he had that.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your testimony in Court? Is that what you testified to in Court?

MR KHUMALO: I did not say it in full, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow. I'm asking you about what obtained in Court because you say Tshabalala was pressuring you and I'm asking you because you testified first, what did you say Tshabalala's role in this crime was?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I only recall that he was pressurising me in Court and some of the things that I have mentioned have left my mind now.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's remind you, we've got the transcript before us. Page 34 and I will request your attorney to show it to you, starting from line 13. As you testified first you said it's Tshabalala who stabbed.

MR KHUMALO: Yes, I agree to that, I said it was Tshabalala who stabbed and this I said under those circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: What circumstances, Sir? You said you testified under those circumstances, so I don't follow what circumstances you're referring to, so I'm asking you what circumstances were you saying that?

MR KHUMALO: This I mentioned to the police and these police took this statement that we gave them at the police station after we'd been arrested, they forwarded the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just tell you what I was asking you a few minutes back when I said this is the transcript of the Court. This is what you said personally, no other police man, about Tshabalala, that Tshabalala is the one who stabbed. That is your evidence before Court that Tshabalala stabbed, nothing about the police, taken verbatim as you were testifying.

MR KHUMALO: I ended up saying that Sir, according to the explanation I already gave.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you yesterday whether Tshabalala was not also an accused. You said yes. How could he now pressurise you when he is charged as well with the same offence? You are both standing there charged with murder and he elects to take the side of the police when he's also charged of murder. I don't understand that, that is what I want you to make me understand because really I may not be upbeat about that.

MR KHUMALO: Gentlemen, that was the era of oppression and all these things happened while I was looking, nobody told me. I was arrested with him and I did not believe it when I saw him washing the cars, he was being sent to the shops and we were both arrested, we were charged with murdering a white person. I don't know what he was given when they were together, but that was evidence enough that he had friends among those police, that is why I'm saying he was pressurising me.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that it was during the days of oppression, but was murder not committed in this instance or are they plucking it from somewhere that there wasn't murder and they just brought murder to you? Wasn't there murder on this particular day?

MR KHUMALO: It is true Sir, it was murder on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are coming before us to give us the circumstances why there was murder and we have to understand that if you committed that crime of murder, it must have been political and further that we should understand that before we make any decision, we must be satisfied that you gave us all the particulars relating to that murder, in other words full disclosure, is that your understanding why you are here?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if you don't admit your crime, we cannot even think of granting you amnesty, is that not so?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we are asking you a simple question, that you testified first and said Tshabalala killed Mr Odendaal and you say no, Tshabalala was pressurising you when you were the first to utter the words that Tshabalala is the one who did it. Now tell us which is which now. Let's get it from you, according to you, let's forget Tshabalala for a moment. Who killed Mr Odendaal?

MR KHUMALO: It's me Sir, I killed Mr Odendaal.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you haven't explained to us why there were four people who said that you were on the farm before the 24th. Why do four people say that and now for the first time today you say that the first time you arrived on the farm was the 24th?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, those people do not even know me. Those four people I do not know, they do not know me.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you yourself said during the Court case that you were, you have been on the farm before the 24th, why are you changing your story now?

MR KHUMALO: Sir, I am not disputing what you are saying. Sir I was just responding to the questions and I was fighting for my defence, I was defending myself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you Mr Coetzer, I do not think that we will get anything else.

MR COETZER: I have no further questions and thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I have a few questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo you testified yesterday that you joined the PAC in 1990, am I correct?

MR KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: In your application you stated that your political organisation was AZANYU and you mention nothing about the PAC. Can you explain why didn't you mention the PAC in your application?

MR KHUMALO: Truly speaking, I was not mentally stable when I ended up in that organisation.

MS MTANGA: Which organisation, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: Where I am sitting now, just as it has been mentioned yesterday.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo, I don't understand your answers. My first question to you was why did you not put the PAC in your application, why did you only mention AZANYU in your application, what's your answer to that?

MR KHUMALO: Oh, when I completed the forms I was in a hurry so I left some items not completely filled.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee what's the difference between AZANYU and PAC?

MR KHUMALO: PAC is an organisation, AZANYU, it's part of the organisation.

MS MTANGA: What part of the organisation, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: It is the youth organisation.

MS MTANGA: Yesterday you gave evidence and you said AZANYU was the Task Force, what did you mean by that?

MR KHUMALO: Well I did not respond correctly, but I'm stressing my response yesterday and I was not mentally stable at that time.

MS MTANGA: At which time, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: Yesterday when I was here.

MS MTANGA: So what are you saying today? Yesterday you said you were a member of the Task Force and you were asked what Task Force and you said AZANYU, what are you saying today? Are you saying you were not a member of AZANYU?

MR KHUMALO: I'm a member of AZANYU.

MS MTANGA: And I'm asking you, was AZANYU a Task Force as you testified yesterday?

MR KHUMALO: No, that is not correct. My apologies please.

MS MTANGA: What is a Task Force, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: Task Force is also part of the PAC. It is also a youth organisation. My apologies please, yes, I'm being asked questions but many of the things I have forgotten, please bear with me Gentlemen.

MS MTANGA: Did Mr Makwara tell you that the Task Force is a youth organisation that is part of the PAC? Where did you get this?

MR KHUMALO: Well that was my recollection as I responded to questions and because so many things happened and that's why I'm saying I do not - I will not recall some of the things very well because it's been a long time ever since I came into contact with them.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo you were with Mr Makwara from 1990 up until 1992 when you committed this offence and you joined the PAC in 1990 and do you want to tell us you don't know what the Task Force is if you were really a member of the PAC as you testified?

MR KHUMALO: It is the PAC soldiers, they fall under the APLA and they assist APLA with anything that is needed within the organisation, that is if I recall very well, but I believe so.

MS MTANGA: Why did you confuse the Task Force with AZANYU then?

MR KHUMALO: My apologies, I made a mistake.

MS MTANGA: Who was the President of the PAC in 1992, Mr Khumalo?

MR KHUMALO: If I recall well it was Clarence Makwetu.

MS MTANGA: And who was the first President of the PAC?

MR KHUMALO: Just bear with me for a minute.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo while you think that answer, can I ask you my next question? Who was the Deputy President of the PAC in 1992? Do you know who was ... ja, carry on.

MR KHUMALO: I only have Clarence Makwetu's name in my memory, I'm sorry for those that I cannot recall their names.

MS MTANGA: You were a member of the PAC in the Free State. Can you give me the original Chairperson in the Free State in 1992?

MR KHUMALO: I don't quite understand your question.

MS MTANGA: I am saying to you you were a member of the PAC in the Free State region and I'm asking you, who was the original Chairperson of the PAC in the Free State.

MR KHUMALO: I have forgotten, I'm sorry.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo I would like to make you aware that the questions that I'm asking you, it's political education, they form part of political education that you receive as a PAC member especially if you get recruited into the Task Force this is basic information that you should know about the PAC and you don't know. What do you say to this?

MR KHUMALO: Ma'am yes, but I have explained that, I don't know how should I put this really, let me put it this way. I was sentenced to death and ever since that I can't think straight, that is why I'm still having problems even at this stage.

MS MTANGA: Finally Mr Khumalo I want to put it to you that I will argue that you are a criminal trying to hijack the amnesty process and this offence was never committed for the political benefit of the PAC as you have testified here today and yesterday. What do you say to this?

MR KHUMALO: I'm not a criminal, but I explained the problem here and the problem that I find myself in.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Just one before you do, Mr Mbandazayo. In your application, question 9(b), did you know the person you killed because what I'm reading here is that you say it's, I want to give you the full names, Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal. Did you know that the person you killed was Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal?

MR KHUMALO: I knew him only as Wessels at that time. The person who provided me with information about his house, told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: And despite the death sentence, you remembered that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes Sir that he was Odendaal and the others, no, I only learned about them in the documents, that was only then that I managed to know his full names.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khumalo. Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV SANDI: Sorry maybe I can ask just one question before Mr Mbandazayo. I hear you keep on saying yesterday when you gave your evidence-in-chief you were mentally unstable and as a result you could not think straight, but did you tell Mr Mbandazayo, you lawyer yesterday or at any stage thereafter? Does he know about this? Did you tell him about this problem you have?

MR KHUMALO: He does not know, really.

ADV SANDI: Why didn't you tell him if you had such a problem?

MR KHUMALO: When I took the stand I tried not to be difficult.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR KHUMALO: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I don't think any re-examination now will take our case any further.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Is that you case Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR COETZER: We will not be calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, could you briefly tell us why we should grant amnesty?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, without wasting the time of the Committee and everybody here, it's my submission that the evidence which has been placed before the Committee is enough for the Committee to reach and fair and a just decision in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Coetzer, any argument?

MR COETZER IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, Committee Members, suffice to say that one should not hide behind another when it comes to the responsibility for one's actions. One cannot expect of a political organisation to carry the blame for deeds that one committed.

In the light of this, I leave the decision in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will also be very brief.

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: It is my submission to this Committee today that Mr Khumalo committed this offence for

personal gain. It was in his evidence that he never accounted for the items they robbed from the Odendaal family, he never accounted for these to either Mr Makwara or to any other member of the PAC and he never gave evidence as to what happened to these items and one can only conclude that Mr Khumalo kept whatever they obtained for themselves, that is Khumalo and Tshabalala. Secondly I also would like to submit that the failure by Mr Khumalo to answer very basic questions about his political organisation that he had been a member for more than two years at the time he committed this offence, clearly shows that Mr Khumalo has lied about his political affiliation. He was never a member of the PAC and he committed this offence as a criminal, not as a political person,

Finally he has not given full disclosure in regard to what was obtained from the Odendaal family. It's clear from the evidence from Court that money was taken from the family and the applicant here today denies that he knew money was taken, despite evidence showing that money was found in his possession at the time he was arrested.

That is all I'd like to say, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Mbandazayo, obviously you do not have a reply.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO REPLY BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Khumalo, thank you very much. What is going to happen, the three of us here are going to sit down, decide and after we have made our decision it will be written, because the Act requires us, the Act that brought us here, the Act that has brought our existence actually, requires us that the decision that we give should be in writing. Your attorney, Mr Mbandazayo, will be provided with a copy and another copy will come to you, do you understand that?

We will try our utmost that we don't delay it unduly. We will do everything in our power to give the decision as soon as possible, but it has to be written. The same here, Mr Coetzer, we've got to give a written decision and it shall be sent to you shortly, so in other words what I'm saying is that our decision is reserved. We thank you for having come, Mr Khumalo.

I notice it's just about ten to eleven and I hope Mr Kachelhoffer it will be appropriate to have tea at this time. Thank you. We shall adjourn for tea for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS