Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Today we are hearing the applications of Pudumo, Ernest, H L Gqomfa and others and yesterday afternoon we said we would start with Mr Pudumo, if I'm not mistaken Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We would as usual place ourselves on record, those who would be involved in the Pudumo matter. I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division, chairing these proceedings. On my right I have Judge de Jager, also from Transvaal Provincial in Gauteng and on my left I have Adv Sandi from East London in the Eastern Cape. Would the legal representatives also place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear, Ms Mtanga, there's no representative for victims. Do we have victims here?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the victims were notified and they declared that they're not interested to attend this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, in which language would the applicant testify?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sotho Chairperson.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo is it correct that you were born on the 1st of March 1953?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were born in Lesotho?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee, how far have you gone at school?

MR PUDUMO: Standard 6, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee to which organisation do you belong?

MR PUDUMO: The PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR PUDUMO: In 1990.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exactly where in 1990 did you join PAC?

MR PUDUMO: In Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who recruited you into PAC?

MR PUDUMO: It's Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Msibande or Sibande?

MR PUDUMO: Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who was Sibande? What was he in PAC?

MR PUDUMO: I knew him as a member of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you have a branch in Virginia of PAC?

MR PUDUMO: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What activities were you involved in? What PAC activities were you involved in since your joining of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: The activities that I associated myself with in the PAC were the orders given to me by my superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who were your superiors?

MR PUDUMO: I have mentioned the name of Sibande already.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What orders were he giving you?

MR PUDUMO: After recruiting me into the PAC, he showed me, he introduced me to Rasta Moloto, that's how I came to 43know Rasta Moloto and together with Sibande, they were known to me as members of the PAC. In 1991 they arrived at my place, three of them, it was Rasta Moloto, Sibande and Lebohang Mehi. In other words he was going to introduce the three of them to me and that was the last year of seeing me. He didn't see me thereafter and the two that were left with me, they informed me about the aspirations of the organisation and what the organisation expected of me. I also took an oath that I will support the organisation with whatever it needs from me.

Myself and Rasta Moloto and Lebohang Mehi, on that day Mr Mehi gave orders to Rasta Moloto. The instructions were that: "Fulfil the aspirations of the organisation". All orders were given to Rasta Moloto and he in turn passed them to me. Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi at that stage. What Rasta Moloto told me was that: "Man, now you must be aware, we have to join the Task Force". I tried to ask him what the Task Force was and what was it all about, what its functions were and he reported that the duties of the Task Force is to assist the organisation with whatever it needs and whatever was needed by the military wing of the organisation. Because I had committed myself I said: "Very well, I will go ahead with that."

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the Task Force?

MR PUDUMO: In 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you trained in anything?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who trained you and where?

MR PUDUMO: The person who trained me is Rasta Moloto. He said: "I will give you certain training." It was in Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At that time, what were you doing yourself before you were recruited to PAC? What was your occupation?

MR PUDUMO: I left the job in 1990, that was due to the retrenchment.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where were you working?

MR PUDUMO: In Harmony Mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it correct that you are a Lesotho citizen?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, I was a Lesotho citizen at that stage.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What do you mean by that? Does that me now you are no longer a Lesotho citizen?

MR PUDUMO: From 1990, I was responsible for a house in Virginia, so I was staying there, I was residing there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Responsible for a house in - what does he mean?

MR PUDUMO: What I'm trying to explain is that from 1990 I was not a resident in Virginia, I owned a house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you pay for the house, or how did you come to own the house?

MR PUDUMO: I paid for the house myself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, my question actually was, what did you pay for the house, how much?

MR PUDUMO: The person who sold the house, sold it for R350.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to follow up what has been asked by the Member of the Committee on the question of the house, according to the Court record is that the house in which you were staying did not belong to you.

MR PUDUMO: It was my house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Let's then proceed. You were trained in Task Force. How many were you in your unit of the Task Force?

MR PUDUMO: We were two.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you come to the incident of the 21st of December 1992 and tell the Committee what happened. Who planned this attack and who came up with this idea and why?

MR PUDUMO: It was in the morning in 1992, Rasta Moloto came to me, he said to me: "Man, there's an attack that we should carry out. This attack will take place in Theunissen" and he organised everything and I asked him: "Seeing that you have already planned the attack, where did you take the order from? Where did you take this idea from?" and he said because he had been given orders, he has the responsibility. We planned that attack, but he was the leader in this whole issue. It was in 1992 on the 20th when we did the reconnaissance. It was the two of us. When we arrived we discovered that the area needed more than two people. He said he will then look for the other two people and I should organise transport in the meantime. We went back to Virginia and I looked into the transport issue and he came about with two people. The names of the two people that were joining were Potsotso and Johannes Leabe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they - in which organisation did they belong, these two?

MR PUDUMO: I do not know which organisation they belonged to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Did you ask them, or did you ask Rasta about which organisation they belonged to?

MR PUDUMO: I only asked whether these were the people who were going to assist us and he said yes. The plan was just to get people just to assist us with the execution of the plan, that is why I went on with the arrangements of getting a car. I went to the taxi rank and I managed to get hold of a private vehicle. We got into this vehicle and then we left.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who drove the vehicle? Who was the driver of the vehicle?

MR PUDUMO: The name of the driver was Seun Dasi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just - you said the idea was to get just people to assist you, did it matter to which organisation they belonged, those people who were going to assist you, whether they belonged to an organisation or they did not belong to any, did it matter to you? The only thing you wanted was the people to assist you.

MR PUDUMO: I had a person who was commanding me. I do not know what was his intention in what he said to them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, continue.

ADV SANDI: Just a bit of clarity on that one. These two people, did you know them before? Had you met them before?

MR PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: Were they using their real names or code names?

MR PUDUMO: I only learned of the two names, Potsotso and Seun Dasi and those are the only names I knew, I didn't know the others.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue. Then you hired a taxi to Theunissen, ...(indistinct)

MR PUDUMO

The taxi owner said he wanted us to pay R50 to take us to that place and I said to him: "Yes, I will give you the money" and indeed we took a trip.

Before arriving at the place of the attack, we stopped the car and we told him to turn back, not to reach the place where we were going to and I asked my Commander the reason for that. He told me: "These people are here to assist us, they were not trained, they are just here to assist us with taking whatever we will repossess" and he gave an order that the car should turn back and these people should remain here and the two of us went ahead and he gave them an order, he said: "You stand here, you wait here until we tell you to go back or to come and assist us carry the things we are supposed to take."

When we arrived at the place, we got into a farm. When we arrived at the farm, we found a girl working at that farm. I knocked at the door. When this girl came out, Rasta Moloto talked to her, he said to her he wanted to see the white man. This girl went into the house to call the white man. Rasta Moloto said to him: "Listen man, you have nothing to say, I am in command here". I asked what the reason for that, what if these people they were many people, and he said to me: "The language used here is Afrikaans."

The white man approached. I did not understand what they were talking further but after a few minutes I noticed a white woman coming out of the door. After her a dog came out. She tried to stop it, she tried to take it back into the house but it refused, it went outside. When the white man came out, my commander prepared a firearm to get into the house. He gave me an order at that stage. He said: "Man, you must be aware now, we are fighting".

On our way to this place, we had two firearms. I had a 38 with me and he had a .22. Indeed I waited outside, he got into the house pointing a gun at the white woman. I was left outside with this man. The woman was making noise to alert the people inside that there was something going on outside. After a few minutes when they were inside, I heard gunshots. The white man left me at the door. When he got inside, I noticed that I was now left on my own. I managed to shoot at him when he was quite a distance ahead of me. When I looked in front of me, the person who was with me was already shot, he was lying down there. I went to fetch him from where he had fallen. Luckily he had a gunshot wound, but he just slipped and he fell. I grabbed the gun from him and when I went back towards the door, I saw a young white woman, she had a firearm with her. I shot her. Now this person who was with me managed to stand up.

Now on our way back a young white man, a white woman - another white woman was there, she had a shoe, but the heel of the shoe was faced towards - was pointed at me and I noticed that this person wanted to scare us, but the person was approaching. On passing the first door in the corridor, I noticed two people talking in this room and I had to shoot at this person who was approaching us. The person who was with me, took the firearm from me and I was left with one firearm. I asked him: "Are you still okay? Are you still in a well condition to fight?" He said: "Let us leave this place." I tried to accompany him up to the door, so that we could go outside. When I turned back, I saw another white person. Because of the noise and because it was chaotic, I did not even take into consideration who she was, but it was a woman. After looking at her, she ran back into the house and we managed to get out of the house. I had to stand at the door for quite some time, so that my injured colleague could walk a distance.

After we had left and just close to a hill, he fell. I got suspicious the way he fell, it looked as if he was loosing energy. When I looked up there where the road came from, I saw many cars driving down and I had to be safe where I was, I had to run away. I tried to run to him to check as to whether he was still alive or not, but I could not do that because the cars were approaching fast and they were now very close. That was my escape.

I did not go to the two people that we left behind, I only noticeD Potsotso passing and I noticed that they were not at the place where they were commanded to stay and we disbursed. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it not correct that the two that were left at that post did not want to enter the premises immediately they were told that you are going there to rob? Is that not the reason they were left behind, because they refused to enter immediately you told them that you are going there to rob?

MR PUDUMO: That is not true. My Commander gave me an instruction and I told them, you wait here until we come back.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you tell them? You didn't know them, your Commander is there on the scene, why did he tell them: "You wait here until we come back", why did you do the ordering?

MR PUDUMO: After the car was stopped, the Commander jumped out and he called me and he said to me: "This car is turning back." He said to me: "This car is going to stop right here, it's not going to our destination. Can you please tell these people to wait here, we will call them." That was the reason why those people were left behind.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they know the reason why you were going there? Did you not tell them that you're going there to fetch money?

MR PUDUMO: I don't know whether the Commander told them what we were going to do, but he talked to them. I don't know what he told them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what stage did he talk to them?

MR PUDUMO: May you repeat your question please?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You told the Committee that the Commander talked to them, the two other people, you don't know what he told them. Now I'm asking, at which stage did he talk to them?

MR PUDUMO: When these people arrived at me, my Commander told me: "We are now ready, we are now leaving and he said: "Are you ready with your car?" We managed then to get into a car and left.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you get this car at Virginia?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How far from Virginia is this farm?

MR PUDUMO: It's quite a long distance, I would not give kilometres, but it's from Virginia to Theunissen

JUDGE DE JAGER: How long did you drive, an hour, two hours to get there?

MR PUDUMO: I wouldn't want to commit myself, but what I know is that we drove a long distance.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Now in your application form at 11(b), you indicated that the orders were issued by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele when you were asked who gave those orders for you to go and attack the farm. Now you are telling the Committee about Rasta Moloto, you have not mentioned Letlapa Mphahlele. Can you explain to the Committee?

MR PUDUMO: After familiarising myself with the request from the organisation, I inquired as to who is responsible for all these orders. Rasta Moloto then informed me, he said: "You must know Lebohang Mehi, he has been given orders by the superiors", I asked him: "Who are the superiors?" , he said: "Letlapa Mphahlele", that's how it came about that I knew the person who gave orders was up there and he was Letlapa Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: But you go on and say those orders were issued between 92 and 93, was that also said by this Mehi?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, the orders that we were given were given out in that year. I think I mentioned, I said Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but to a question from your legal representative when he said to you you said the orders came from Letlapa Mphahlele, just before that you said the orders were issued in 1992, 93 by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele and now your evidence is that you parted with Mehi in 1991, how could he tell you about the orders to be issued the following year?

MR PUDUMO: Rasta arrived and he said to me: "You know I've been given orders to command you. Know that we are going to attack." All this happened in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. And also you were, the TRC wrote to you and asked you questions

"Who gave you orders to commit the said offences? Give full names, contactable addresses of such person."

Your response was that it was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele. And again you were asked:

"Upon whose approval did you commit the said offences? Give full details."

You again said:

"Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, APLA Commander."

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir. After knowing who the person was who issued out an order, I asked what his position was and I was told and that is why in my application I indicated that the superior person is him who gave out orders, because my immediate Commander told me: "All what you are doing has been ordered by our superior."

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you know this farm?

MR PUDUMO: I knew the farm on the 20th.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you ever been to that farm before?

MR PUDUMO: No, I went to that farm on the day of the reconnaissance, a day before the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you direct the taxi driver to the farm?

MR PUDUMO: I was directing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you identify the farm as a target?

MR PUDUMO: No, my Commander identified the farm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you answer to the TRC on their request on page 6, paragraph 2

"The target was identified by myself"?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, what I'm explaining is that we went to that area on the day of the attack but I had been with my Commander to that area, now that is why I directed the driver, it's because I had been there with the Commander.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you identify that farm, there's about 100 farms in the vicinity of Virginia and even at Theunissen, why that particular farm, why was that one chosen?

MR PUDUMO: I think the appropriate person to respond to that question is my Commander, he identified the place

JUDGE DE JAGER: But unfortunately, I can't call him, he's deceased and I haven't got that art or power to call up people who've departed from earth, so could you tell us why?

MR PUDUMO: I think he noticed that it was an important place to be identified.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just come in there? When this name Letlapa Mphahlele was mentioned to you, did you know who Rasta was talking about?

MR PUDUMO: When I joined the organisation I was told who the leaders were.

ADV SANDI: Was anything mentioned about Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR PUDUMO: Can you please clarify this question?

ADV SANDI: You say when you joined the organisation, you were told who the leaders were, now my question to you is, was anything mentioned to you about Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR PUDUMO: I was told that he is one of the top leaders.

ADV SANDI: Were you told whether he occupied any specific position in the organisation?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What position was that?

MR PUDUMO: I was told that he was the Deputy to the High Commander.

ADV SANDI: And who was said to be the High Commander?

MR PUDUMO: It was Siabelo Pama.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to find out from you when you mentioned this name, Letlapa Mphahlele, you're not mentioning a name which you may have come across in prison, don't you have discussions in prison amongst yourselves?

MR PUDUMO: I was still outside when I came to know this name.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE DE JAGER: While on that, the only PAC people you ever met were Rasta and Mehi?

MR PUDUMO: There are many people within the township, the PAC people, but the important ones are those I've mentioned.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you make sure that some of the PAC members accompanied you on this mission? Now you're taking two strangers with, they're not even - you don't know whether they're PAC members?

MR PUDUMO: I've explained already that my task was to organise transport. The person who brought the two, was the Commander, I don't know why.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You had no meetings, you didn't have a branch at Virginia?

MR PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were the two important in Virginia, Rasta and Mehi, because you said you were recruited by Sibande, if I remember well, why were these two now important?

MR PUDUMO: I think the two people that I've mentioned, the person who recruited me and the person who ordered me, those were the two important people.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they important, what positions did they hold, other than accompanying you to the crime, the scene of crime? What was their importance?

MR PUDUMO: They were important in the sense that they showed to me the aspirations, or they told me about the aspirations of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you be shown by Sibande, because that's the man who recruited you and told you how important this organisation was? How could you join an organisation and thereafter know about its importance? You must know up front what the importance of that organisation is, wouldn't that be logical?

MR PUDUMO: My Lord, that is why I ...(end of tape)

people who are important are those who advised me, the one who recruited me and the one who gave me orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Other than the orders, what position did they hold within the PAC or the Task Force, as you refer to it?

MR PUDUMO: I just know that they were members of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: No look, they are important people to you, they told you about the organisation. They should have said: "Look, I hold this position, therefore I speak in authority when I do so to you." They were just members of the Task Force and you were satisfied about that? Okay, let's start from Sibande. He introduces you to Rasta and Mehi, what did he say these people were within the PAC, or within the organisation?

MR PUDUMO: What Sibande told me was that: "Man, I am bringing these two people to you, they are also members of the organisation. This one is a member of APLA."

CHAIRPERSON: How long after he had recruited you in 1990, did he introduce you to these two?

MR PUDUMO: I met with him in 1990. In 1991, he introduced me to Lebohang Mehi. Between 1990 and 91 I came to know Mr Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: You said in 1991: "They arrived at my place ..." that was the three, Sibande, Moloto and Mehi, now I don't follow.

MR PUDUMO: As I'm explaining the first person that I knew was Sibande. As time went by, you know between 90 and 91, I came to know Rasta Moloto. On the 10th of 1991, I came to know Lebohang Mehi.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the 10th of 1991?

MR PUDUMO: It was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, please assist us, we don't know these other things. We don't assume, it is you who has got to assist us. If you mention a date, tell us which month, because we know nothing, you are the person who knows everything, is that okay?

MR PUDUMO: Thank you My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were asked questions that two, "The target was identified by myself with the authorisation of APLA through its declaration of the 90's as the decade of the great people's offensive."

Now you just told my brother here something else. Who authorised you, who commanded you, who instructed you, because it would appear there's a conflict here. At one stage you were asked by my brother and you said it was Letlapa Mphahlele, right up front, you say no, no, authorisation through the declaration and I suppose you're referring to the writings of the Pan Africanist Congress.

MR PUDUMO: I will explain it this way. After inquiring about the importance of the attack, I wanted to know what was happening and they explained to me

"You must know that from this year, 1990, this is the year of - it was a year of corruption, that's why you'll see us doing what we are doing now."

I asked them why and they said:

"You must know, we have told you that this is going to be a very chaotic year, we are now starting with our fighting. We are going ahead with the struggle."

And I wanted to know who was the person on top of all the instructions and the orders and the name ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Now but wouldn't it have been simple for you to say so-and-so said: "From now henceforth is the great people's offensive and this has been said by the organisation, PAC", because here you are categorically saying to us you were authorised through these pamphlets probably you received, you don't say you were told, or am I reading it wrong, as I read it to you?

MR PUDUMO: You are quite right, I am explaining, I have explained that I wanted to know, I wanted information as to what was happening. After inquiring what was happening, they told me: "You must know and this is war, we are engaging ourselves in a war" and I came - I familiarised myself with the idea of fighting and what the fighting was about, that is why I gave the reason for all these.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say there was war, or we're going to revolutionise and go on the offensive to destabilise the country, did they say so?

MR PUDUMO: They said to me we were going to destabilise the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see even the crime you are applying for amnesty for, is attacking people on a farm, you were not facing another enemy as in war, would I be right as well?

MR PUDUMO: We were going to attack, Sir and to repossess whatever we could to hand over to the organisation as per instructions, that is why we ended up looking for more than two people for the attack, so that the other two could help us with the carrying out of what we were doing there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you reconnoitred the place, what did you see which was of value to the PAC which you could repossess?

MR PUDUMO: Together with the person I was with, he said this is a very nice place, it looks like this man is very rich and we could get quite a lot of assistance for the organisation, that is why we wanted more than two people for this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Other than this man looking plum, what was there that had to be taken? You can't tell me you see a man with a nice suit and you tell me that this man is rich, therefore we would get something out of him. What precisely because you went to look at the place, what did you see?

MR PUDUMO: He had a car and there were items, many items there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In the house? Were there many items in the house, or outside?

MR PUDUMO: Well, if we noticed very well, outside we could see from where we were that there was a car parked outside and there was another one inside.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you take the car and drive away, what else did you want to take?

MR PUDUMO: The plan was to kill the boers.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no. You said at first was to attack the whites and repossess, this is a dual thing. We want to know right now, because you went, accompanied Rasta to look at the place and you took two people with who would do the carrying of what you repossessed, we want to know what were these people going to carry which you repossessed?

MR PUDUMO: What I'm explaining here is that the two people, the person who chose them, knew the reason for that. When we separated with him, the first point that we agreed upon was that we know this man is rich, the second point, here are the cars outside and he explained to me that we can see the cattle, so this man was also selling cattle, so in other words there were many things, many other things that we would get and those would need more than two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How do you know Rasta didn't go there on a frolic of his own to take things for himself and he had two friends going with, they were not PAC even, you don't know whether they were.

MR PUDUMO: According to our agreement he said: "I will go and look for two people, you will search for a car", whether they were friends, I do not know, but the agreement that we reached of bringing two people and me bringing a vehicle, was done, I brought a car, he brought the two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But my question is, how do you know that Rasta didn't plan to break into their house or to rob things for his own purposes, for personal gain?

MR PUDUMO: That would not be the case, Sir, we had agreed that we are working for the organisation. He taught me that as we are doing now, we are working for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You said there were many people who belonged to the organisation in Virginia. Why didn't you say: "Because we have looked at this place, it needs more than two people, let's get so and so and so and so"? But you leave it to him, he comes with complete strangers to you and you don't question that.

MR PUDUMO: He did not mention the names of the people beforehand, he said: "I am going to look for two people". Now as my Commander, I knew that he would come with important people for the purpose of conducting an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you went only for one day to look at this farm?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day was it?

MR PUDUMO: I think it was midday.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you attacked, what time of the day?

MR PUDUMO: We went the same time, that is midday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but according to the reading I had done, is that you were involved in one incident, would I be right?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And with one incident, you can't recall even just approximately what time you reconnoitred and what time was suitable to attack, you just say during the day. Wouldn't it be that people would look at a target, make absolutely certain that if we come at this time, the situation would be the same? Wouldn't that make sense?

MR PUDUMO: That would make sense Sir, that is why I'm saying to you midday hours, it's between one and twelve.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I thought you said you were done?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I wanted just, it was going to be the last point I wanted to canvass with him. Now Mr Pudumo, you indicated that you joined in 1990 and this operation took place in 1992, would I be correct to say at that time you were well versed with the aims and objectives of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you what were the aims and objectives of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will you tell the Committee about those aims and objectives?

MR PUDUMO: The aims and the objectives of the PAC were to get back the land. Those who illegally occupied the land were supposed to be removed, that is why we ended up pursuing the inspirations of the organisation, its because we wanted land.

ADV SANDI: Just further on that, did they tell you when this organisation the PAC was founded?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What did they say?

MR PUDUMO: They told me the organisation was founded in 1959 on the 6th of April.

ADV SANDI: Let's go back to the stage where you were travelling in the car, it was the taxi driver, yourself, Rasta and these two strangers. Did you talk to each other, by referring to each other with each other's name? Or call any name, genuine names?

MR PUDUMO: Let me explain how the seating arrangement was in the car. The first one was the driver and the passenger seat was occupied by myself and behind me it was Rasta Moloto, my Commander and next to him was Potsotso and on the right side was Bless, that is Johannes Leabe. When we left Virginia, when we drove out of Virginia I asked them, I had known the driver already from the taxi rank and I asked him: "What's your name?" and he told me that his name was Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, was he not the driver?

MR PUDUMO: Seun Dasi was the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, other than Seun because you secured the transport in other means. Just come back with the names of the people who were involved there, it was yourself, Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I said leave Seun Dasi because he was the driver. You didn't even get next to the place because you said: "Stop here and turn back", if I understood your evidence. Didn't you say so? So I said those who went actually to the farm. It's yourself, Potsotso ...(intervention)

MR PUDUMO: No, My Lord, it looks like we do not understand each other. Let me put it this way. Rasta said to me: "These people are going to remain here, we are going to the farm. Me and you are going to the farm. We're going to the farm, the two of us." The car was stopped and Potsotso and Johannes Leabe remained behind and the driver Seun Dasi, those were the people who were left behind. In other words it's only two of us, myself and Rasta, who went to the place of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I don't follow. How would these others carry what you repossessed when you left them behind? Because you said when you looked at the place you realised that you must be four there, because the other two would carry what you had repossessed. Did I follow you correctly?

MR PUDUMO: What I said is that the driver and these two people were left behind. My Commander said: "After finishing the job we are going to call you to come and get items". They were not going to fight, they were going to assist in carrying the items, that was the agreement between me and Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: So, in your reconnaissance, you realised you could take the whole day in doing this because you would go attack, kill the people, then go back, call the people to come. How long in our reconnaissance in other words did you think you can execute the mission, how many hours did you need to execute that mission?

MR PUDUMO: We left the people at a place that was conducive enough for us to go and get them after we had done the job.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, how long, how much time did you need for this operation? That's my question.

MR PUDUMO: We would even take a whole day, Sir, we were trying to get the job done.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your reconnaissance what estimation did you give that the operation needs in terms of time?

MR PUDUMO: We only managed to come to a point that the operation needed to be done midday and we would need so many people, that is why it was carried out in the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, we were on the objectives and all that and I'm sorry, I hope we haven't derailed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Chairperson, in fact I will pass that one. Let met - my last point to ask you, do you know the motto of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was the motto?

MR PUDUMO: One settler, one bullet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was not one settler one bullet the slogan of APLA?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But I'm asking the motto of the PAC.

MR PUDUMO: It's ...(ethnic).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Lastly, why should you be granted amnesty in respect of this incident? Tell the Committee.

MR PUDUMO: The Committee should grant me amnesty firstly because we were doing what the organisation ordered us. What we did was ordered by the organisation and that is why the Committee should grant me amnesty as requested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence, Chairperson and Honourable Members, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

JUDGE DE JAGER: One thing I want to ask you about. Where was your wife staying at the time?

MR PUDUMO: She was staying with me in Virginia.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't she in Lesotho with the child?

MR PUDUMO: No, we were in Virginia.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it not the position that at the time you were actually a citizen of Lesotho?

MR PUDUMO: I was already a South African citizen.

ADV SANDI: When did you become a citizen of South Africa?

MR PUDUMO: I arrived here in 1985.

ADV SANDI: I did not ask you when did you arrive here, I was asking when did you become a citizen of South Africa.

MR PUDUMO: In 1990.

ADV SANDI: How did you become a citizen of South Africa in 1990?

MR PUDUMO: After given accommodation, I applied for a South African identity document.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I wish to refer you to page 37. The Judge said, you made standard 6, you worked on a mine for seven years and you were unemployed at this stage.

" It is also not in dispute that the accused is a citizen of Lesotho and that he grew up in Lesotho and that he has a wife there."

Where did that Judge hear this and it wasn't disputed at the trial.

MR PUDUMO: I recall this was one of the issues during the trial and I asked them: "Where am I now?" and what was emphasised there was that where they found me was my house and I asked them: "If this is my house, why do these people tell me that I am a Lesotho Citizen?" The Judge did not respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: That cannot be true. I'll tell you what my brother is asking you, is that after conviction and before sentence, these were the other elements which the Judge had to take into consideration in passing sentence, these were never under discussion, hence he's saying look these are not in dispute, there's no discussion about it.

Please and I think after correcting you, you can answer my brother. Mitigating factors before sentence was passed and when the Judge made these comments which my brother was just reading to you, this is what he was told to take into consideration, that you have worked in the mines for seven years and you were retrenched, that you have a wife who is in Lesotho and it's not in dispute that you are a Lesotho citizen because let me remind you, you were represented by an advocate, Mr Meyer, he put these facts to the Judge and obviously coming as a Pro Deo counsellor, he wouldn't know all that, he must have got it somewhere and my suspicion is that he got it from you, but you can correct us and put my suspicions in perspective.

MR PUDUMO: My advocate came to me and he asked me, this was the beginning of the discussions and he never forwarded what the situation was. I told him that this is where you can find me. Yes, this is where you can find me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, when you were found guilty, do you recall that there were two stages in the trial? Firstly there was the evidence of what happened on the farm, you recall that, that there was evidence of what happened at the farmer and then the Judge said to you and that you would find on page 35 that you were found guilty on count 1, not guilty on count 6 and guilty on the count of murder. It ended. Then he wanted to sentence you and then he said: "What do you have to say in mitigation?" Then he says

"The accused's personal circumstances (meaning you) are the following and this is not in dispute", that you are 30 years of age, you had no previous convictions, you obtained standard 6 and thereafter you worked for seven years in the mines and you were retrenched and it was also not in dispute that you were a Lesotho citizen and that you grew up in Lesotho and you have a wife in Lesotho. Do you follow the personal circumstances which were put to the Judge? Now this advocate did you know him before, the advocate who defended you?

MR PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So he knew you from no bar of soap, how could he come with these details because you told us for instance you obtained standard 6 at school, so it's correct as far as that is concerned. Wouldn't we be right?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And born in 1963, when you were sentenced in 1993, you were 30 years, its correct?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where would the Judge have got those personal circumstances about yourself, when you say no there was discussion about your citizenship, if the advocate did not get that from you or the Judge did not get it from you?

MR PUDUMO: It is true, we did all this. Now what happened was the discussions were as they took place but all the facts that we discussed and all the facts that were discussed are not indicated here, they were not all placed in here.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a wife, don't you?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The Judge nor the advocate did not know you, you told them that you had a wife, is that not so?

MR PUDUMO: It's myself.

CHAIRPERSON: You told the Court or the advocate that you were retrenched from work, they did not know that, isn't it so?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told them about your scholastic career, that you ended up in standard 6, that was not know to either the Judge or the advocate, was it not so?

MR PUDUMO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: That you grew up in Lesotho and came to work in the mines, they did not know that, you are the only one who knew that and you must have told them that, isn't that so?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The only dispute you say which they made wrong, was that you are a Lesotho citizen and that your wife was in Lesotho, so they made a mistake in respect of that?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, because they were here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pudumo. Ms Mtanga, I hope I haven't taken the thunder out of your cross-examination?

MS MTANGA: Not at all Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, if I can just make a follow-up to what the Chairperson was asking you, would you say the Judge in his Judgement lied when he said your citizenship was not in dispute, if you say there were discussions about whether you were a South African citizen or a Lesotho citizen and this was disputed by yourself and then if he went on in his Judgement and stated that your citizenship was not disputed, are you saying he lied?

MR PUDUMO: I have explained in detail that I was born in Lesotho. My arrest occurred when I was residing here in South Africa.

MS MTANGA: You're not answering my question. I'm asking you, are you saying the Judge lied?

MR PUDUMO: Can you put your question again?

MS MTANGA: My question is that the Judge in his Judgment stated that your citizenship, as it was put before the Court by your counsel, was never disputed by any of the parties including yourself and now you are saying that there were discussion disputing that you were actually a Lesotho citizen, what I'm asking you now, are you saying the Judge lied in his Judgement when he said the fact that you were a Lesotho citizen was not disputed?

MR PUDUMO: He knows that. He's telling the truth.

MS MTANGA: In your application you were asked to give us your identity number or passport number, why didn't you fill in that part of your application?

MR PUDUMO: I had not yet received it.

MS MTANGA: When did you apply for your I.D.?

MR PUDUMO: Since 1987.

ADV SANDI: When did you get your I.D. book?

MR PUDUMO: I did not get an I.D., I only got a duplicate.

MS MTANGA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently get your identity document?

MR PUDUMO: I haven't received it.

MS MTANGA: Did you make any inquiries why you have not received your identity document, because all prisoners will have identity documents?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, ever since I landed in prison, I have made inquiries.

MS MTANGA: Were you able to vote in 1994?

MR PUDUMO: We were not allowed to vote as prisoners, but what happened was that I received another duplicate.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, that's not true, prisoners did vote in 1994.

MR PUDUMO: What I'm telling you is true, we did not vote in 1994, we were told that prisoners who committed murder cannot vote.

MS MTANGA: I want to put it to you that prisoners who were South African citizens, who weren't in exile and were not in possession of South African documents, did receive these documents even if they were in prison. What do you say to this?

MR PUDUMO: I can't have any knowledge to that effect, but I did not receive the I.D.

MS MTANGA: Who filled in this application for you? Your amnesty application, who filled it for you?

MR PUDUMO: We filled it in when we arrived at Grootvlei.

MS MTANGA: But who filled it in for you? I need the name of the person who filled it in for you.

MR PUDUMO: It's myself.

MS MTANGA: Is this the truth, Mr Pudumo? Are you telling us the truth?

MR PUDUMO: I filled the application myself.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, I wish to put it to you that applicants from Grootvlei prison had the same person filling in their applications for them, the same handwriting that's here. What do you say to this?

MR PUDUMO: It is true. It is not my handwriting but the facts are from my mouth.

MS MTANGA: So I'm asking you, who filled in this application for you, I need the name of that person.

MR PUDUMO: It's been quite a while and I have forgotten the name of the person who filled these forms for us.

MS MTANGA: Were you assisted by a PAC or an APLA member to fill in these applications?

MR PUDUMO: PAC member assisted.

MS MTANGA: ; Was he a fellow prisoner?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, may I just interpose here? Mr Pudumo if you look at page 8 is that your handwriting?

MS MTANGA: Someone assisted me with writing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR PUDUMO: It was Kleinbooi Mashea.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the handwriting on page 6?

MR PUDUMO: The same.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Mr Mehi at any stage with you in the Grootvlei prison?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you met him there again?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, I found him at Grootvlei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you discuss this incident with him?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. You told this Committee that one of your instructions was to repossess from this farm that you had identified. Can you tell this Committee what is the policy of the PAC and APLA regarding repossession? Why were they repossessing and what units were formed to carry out this repossession? Can you give us the full background of the repossession policy.

MR PUDUMO: After taking whatever we take, we had to sell those things and assist the organisation in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the question is simple. What was the policy of the PAC in that regard and what repossession units were formed by the PAC? That is the question to you. Am I right Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you're correct, Chairperson. Thank you.

MR PUDUMO: The policy said the land belonged to us.

MS MTANGA: Is that all you can say about the PAC policy about repossession?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, that is why I'm saying the land and all that is on the land belonged to us. The land and all that belongs to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga if I may interpose again. Now when you went to this farm at Theunissen to repossess, were you going to repossess that farm in accordance with the PAC policy?

MR PUDUMO: When we went to Theunissen we were going to eliminate and take everything that we could get at that farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going to repossess the farm as well in accordance with the policy of the PAC as you told us? Take away, in other words, the farm from the owners because the PAC said the land belonged to us, we must repossess our land.

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you need people to accompany you because you were simply going to repossess the farm, you would not carry the farm with?

MR PUDUMO: My Lord, if I understand you well, a farm is just, it's a place where buildings are erected, we only wanted to take what we could get on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And leave the farm as is?

MR PUDUMO: If we have removed the goods and nobody is staying there anymore, the land would be belonging to the Africans, those who were residing on the farm would be the owners of the land.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Pudumo, you haven't answered my question about what were the repossession units of the APLA called.

MR PUDUMO: Can you please take it step by step, so that I understand it?

MS MTANGA: Take what step by step, Mr Pudumo. I'm asking you the names, what were the repossession units of APLA called? That's a single question.

MR PUDUMO: I explained that the PAC's policy was, the land belongs to us and the, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo, what you are asked is, did you know within APLA there were specialised units which were formed to do that task which you were told by Mehi to do, did you know that?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now she wants to know from you about those specialised repossession units because they were in pockets, that's all she wants to know, it's very simple. Would I be correct, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you are correct, Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.

MR PUDUMO: Task Force.

MS MTANGA: That is wrong, Mr Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Just on that, did you know anything about the use of code names by APLA cadres?

MR PUDUMO: Code names used where?

ADV SANDI: Do you know what a code name means? Code name - that is when you are not using your real name for security.

MR PUDUMO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about the use of such code names by members of APLA?

MR PUDUMO: What we knew was that members of APLA could use pseudonyms or disguises.

ADV SANDI: Did you have such a name?

MR PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: And Rasta, did he ever have such a name?

MR PUDUMO: I knew him through that name, Rasta.

ADV SANDI: And that was his real name, not so?

MR PUDUMO: No, I just knew him as Rasta Moloto and that was it.

ADV SANDI: When these two strangers were introduced to you by Rasta, did he introduce you to these gentlemen as well?

MR PUDUMO: On the way I learned their names.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did he tell them what you name was, did he tell them? What did he say to them?

MR PUDUMO: I told them what my name was.

ADV SANDI: Which was?

MR PUDUMO: Pabelo Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo earlier on you were asked what was the PAC motto. Can you just tell the Committee what was the PAC motto?

MR PUDUMO: ...(ethnic)

MS MTANGA: That was also incorrect, Mr Pudumo. As a PAC member who joined the PAC and was also recruited into the Task Force, how come that you don't know the basic information of the PAC and its operations, if you were really a PAC member and a Task Force member? How can you not know a simple thing such as a motto of your organisation?

MR PUDUMO: That is why I'm saying the motto of the organisation is the land is ours.

MS MTANGA: I've just told you Mr Pudumo, that's a wrong answer, there is no such. What kind of a member of PAC who'd go on and kill people and claim to be an ANC member and not know his own organisation's motto?

MR PUDUMO: ...(not translated)

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-exam?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case of the applicant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo thank you very much you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, are you leading any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Could we be given very brief submissions, if any, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, no submission except that I would like to highlight because I left the Committee in the lurch in some of the questions I wanted the applicant to answer, like as my colleague indicated, ask the motto. I did not get the answer to the motto, whether the applicant ...

Chairperson it's correct what has been said by my colleague that it was not correct, the motto of the PAC itself, serve, suffer, sacrifice, SSS, which of course is basic, it's the first thing you are taught, it's serve, suffer, sacrifice for the organisation and also Chairperson, what I wanted to highlight was the aims and objectives of the PAC. Of course, Chairperson, they are five in all, aims and objectives of the PAC which you are taught when you join the organisation. Of course the first one everybody knows, to unite and rally the Africans under the ...(indistinct) of African Nationalism, there are five of them, Chairperson, so I wanted to highlight that.

And thirdly Chairperson, I wanted to highlight the question of the operations. The Committee knows that there's a difference between repossession unit and the offensive side, they were totally different and of course it was known that it was code name Beauty Salon, the repossessing units and their modus operandi definitely were totally different Chairperson, as compared to the other side, which was an offensive side. Specifically their's was to repossess and of course, Chairperson it was for specific targets and of course Chairperson, I know that not all of the farmers' farms were targeted for repossession. It was let by Tabelo Paseko.

So the offensive unit, of course their's was to go and attack, they would never take anything - leave everything as it is. Of course there were instances where they would say, as a soldier if you see a gun, you cannot leave it lying there, you will take it, which is understandable, as long as you've not put the other members in problem, or killed in the process when you are doing that.

We had a similar instance here in Bloemfontein regarding Wesselsbron attack, where members of APLA the offensive unit, went to attack and repossess and the Committee wanted an explanation in as much as they asserted that they did not dispute that they were APLA members, but they wanted to know why an offensive unit went to go and repossess and Letlapa Mphahlele has come and made an affidavit as to why that repossession unit, a specialised unit was not available at that time and the operation had to be taken and as a result they made a mess of that operation, they left the money which they wanted there, the only thing they did was to attack. They only took cheques which were useless at the end of the day.

So what I'm trying to say Chairperson, is that there was indeed separation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which appeared, I don't know how many times.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, that's why I wanted to - that's the only submission Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm not going to make any submissions because they won't take our case any further regarding this matter. The applicant has put his case and I think it's enough for the Committee to reach a fair and a just decision in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make. Thank you.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Ms Mtanga. Mr Pudumo, will you sit down for a while. The Committee reserves its decision. We are required by the Act, the TRC Act that our decisions should be in writing. We are going to deliberate on your matter and at the earliest convenience you will be advised in writing, you will be given the decision as well which we have reached. I must thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Ms Mtanga for your assistance. We will adjourn for tea for 15 minutes and then we'll resume with the application of Gqomfa.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS