Amnesty Hearings

ADV THABETHE: Can I proceed Mr Chair?

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

ADV THABETHE: Mr Mthembu represents the applicants and he will call upon Mr Leeuw, the applicant.

MR MTHEMBU: I confirm that Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Are we now dealing with application no. 5175/97, Leeuw?

ADV THABETHE: Correct.

HENDRIK LEEUW: (sworn states)

ADV THABETHE: At this point I would hand over to Mr Mthembu to lead evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: Before starting could you kindly advise us what page, where would we find this application of the bundle of documents on the index?

ADV THABETHE: It's the Thursday bundle, Section A.

ADV DE JAGER: Page?

ADV THABETHE: Page 8.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I suggest in future where we are going to have lists prepared and indexes as in this case that it would be convenient to have the applications in the same order as the names appear on the list on the index.

ADV THABETHE: Point taken.

JUDGE WILSON: Right.

EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Leeuw is it correct that you have applied for amnesty in respect of certain offences?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so, Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Could you tell this Committee which offences are those?

MR LEEUW: It is for murder and robbery.

MR MTHEMBU: Can I proceed Mr Chair? Mr Leeuw at the time of the commission of these offences were you a member or affiliated to any political organisation?

MR LEEUW: I was a member of PAC of Azania.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mthembu, before going over to the - robbery of what, where, when, who did he rob, who did he murder and what was the dates so that we could then get all the particulars that we need.

MR MTHEMBU: Point taken Sir. Mr Leeuw would you explain to this Committee for which murder and robbery were you convicted for and for which you are now applying for amnesty?

MR LEEUW: It is for the murder committed to Mr R J J Fourie.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it correct that you are charged with the murder of Mr R J J Fourie who was a farmer at Verkeerdevlei and his farm was called the Stormberg Farm.

MR LEEUW: Yes, I was charged for that.

MR MTHEMBU: And is it further correct that you, and your co-accused in this matter, you murdered and thereafter robbed the late Mr Fourie as well as a female person who was in the company of the late Mr Fourie?

MR LEEUW: Yes, our intention was not to rob. Mr Fourie was against the liberation of Africans.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir I will come to the motive. My question now is, is it correct that you murdered the said Mr (late) Fourie and a female person who was in his company and that

you robbed them both of certain articles.

MR LEEUW: Yes we murdered Mr Fourie. We did this under the PAC operation which was heeded by Sabelo Palma(?) ...(intervention)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw sorry to interrupt you. Please answer my questions. I will ask you for the details when the need be, please Sir. Now can you tell this Committee what happened during the murder of Mr Fourie?

MR LEEUW: We murdered Mr Fourie and we searched his house and took whatever was necessary. We took his car so that we should be able to assist the organisation.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it correct that you and your co-accused planned this incident and that you were actually in Verkeerdevlei two days before this incident to conduct reconnaissance at that farm which is called Stormberg Farm?

MR LEEUW: Yes we did go there, Stormberg.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that you and your co-accused in fact waylaid Mr Fourie at the gate leading to his farm and that you closed the gate so that he could climb out of his vehicle to close the said gate, then at that moment you would attack him?

MR LEEUW: Yes we did that exactly. We closed the gate so that we should be able to catch him.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that indeed Mr Fourie alighted from his vehicle and whilst he was busy opening the gate and when he turned around to approach his vehicle that you shot him once in the chest?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just a minute I don't think that's how we should lead evidence. I think ask him to tell us what

happened.

MR MTHEMBU: Would you then proceed to tell this Committee what happened.

MR LEEUW: We arrived on that farm on the 12th of February. When that car passed, going towards the direction of the town we closed the gate so that when they came back we should be able to catch them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, and then what happened? Go on to tell us what happened, please.

MR LEEUW: When he came back we were still waiting by the gate, it was still closed. We closed it on purpose so they should be able to attack him when he tries to open the gate. And when he alighted the vehicle I attacked him. When he fell down I grabbed this woman who tried to get out of the car and Daniel Magoda and Mishek May removed Mr Fourie and put him in the bush. We took this White woman and put her in the car and we went into the house. We took the same keys that were in the car and opened the house. When we got inside we put this White woman on a chair. Mishek May and Daniel Magoda and Petrus Nkgwedi, we clapped this White woman and she was being watched by Mishek May. My main intention was to get the keys to the safe because we were looking for the firearms that were kept in the safe. We needed those firearms in order to operate for the PAC struggle. We found the old coins in the safe and we took that with us. ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, did you find any firearms?

MR LEEUW: Yes we did.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many?

MR LEEUW: Two.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.

MR LEEUW: It's a 3.8 firearm and a small one called Baby Brown. When I came back to check Daniel Magoda and Mishek May I found that this woman was no longer on the chair and I realised that she was in the bedroom. And she had a loudspeaker and I told the gentlemen that the policemen must not find us there. Then I dismantled the loudspeaker. We went into the car and we drove off to Botshabelo. We threw out the loudspeaker and the telephone. We took these things and kept them in separate places so that the police shouldn't find them in one place. Mishek May left with the car and we managed to hide away these things.

JUDGE WILSON: What things?

MR LEEUW: I am talking about the coins that we found in the house, and the clothing, and there were also some groceries in the car because it seems that they had just come from doing groceries in town. Those are the things that we took. And we took all these things to Botshabelo. Mishek May left with the car and he went with it to the D Section and we were arrested after two days.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You said when Mr Fourie came out of the car you attacked him, what do you mean thereby?

MR LEEUW: I shot him.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many times?

MR LEEUW: With one bullet.

JUDGE MGOEPE: With whose gun?

MR LEEUW: It's a .38 special gun.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Whose gun was it?

MR LEEUW: It was Mr Showa's (?) gun, after the instruction that he gave us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: By the way who was this Mr Showa?

MR LEEUW: He was an APLA Commander.

JUDGE WILSON: We've heard mention of a woman who was accompanying Mr Fourie, I am not asking the applicant, I am asking the evidence leader, do we know who this person is?

ADV THABETHE: No, we don't have a record of that.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't she mentioned at the trial?

ADV DE JAGER: Was the name Mrs May? Is that correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Has she been given notice of this hearing?

ADV THABETHE: No she hasn't.

JUDGE WILSON: Why not? She was clearly a victim wasn't she? Someone who could give very relevant information as to precisely what was stolen from the house. It's extremely important when one is trying to ascertain what the purpose of an act is, whether there was personal gain.

ADV THABETHE: What I did is I asked the matter to be investigated by the Investigative Unit and I've got a report back from them and it doesn't mention Mrs May.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry could I ask - when I mentioned the name Mrs May you said yes, is that correct?

MR LEEUW: Yes that is correct Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know her before the event?

MR LEEUW: No I did not know her before.

ADV DE JAGER: Any one of your co-accused, did they know her before the event?

MR LEEUW: I don't think they knew her.

ADV DE JAGER: Did any one of you know Mr Fourie before the event?

MR LEEUW: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know him?

MR LEEUW: Yes I knew him well.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you work for him?

MR LEEUW: Yes I worked for him.

JUDGE WILSON: Did Mrs May give evidence at your trial?

MR LEEUW: Yes she was present in court.

JUDGE WILSON: Did she give evidence? Did she go into the witness box?

MR LEEUW: Yes she did.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Now Mr Leeuw, besides having worked for Mr Fourie how else did you know him?

MR LEEUW: Mr Fourie was one of the people who was in charge of training, he was one of the commanders in the army.

MR MTHEMBU: Now at the time when you were working for him, where were you staying?

MR LEEUW: I was staying on the very same farm.

MR MTHEMBU: For how long did you stay at this farm, and when did you leave it?

MR LEEUW: I stayed there for 15 years, I actually grew up there. I left there in 1975.

MR MTHEMBU: Now Mr Leeuw would you tell this Committee what is the political objective that you sought to achieve?

MR LEEUW: Our political objective as a branch of the Operation Grand Storm and as he was the leader of the Free State branch he gave us the instruction to attack these farms.

MR MTHEMBU: I see here Sir on your application form for amnesty, paragraph 7(b), you state that the organisation, the movement concerned or your membership that you were actually a member of the task force, could you explain to this Committee what was the objectives of the task force and it's link with APLA and/or PAC operations?

MR LEEUW: Task force is closely linked with APLA, it had

to assist APLA in it's attacks on these farms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So were members of the task force also members of APLA?

MR LEEUW: Task force and APLA were separate entities but they assisted each other in attacking the farms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What was the relationship, if any, between the task force and the PAC?

MR LEEUW: The relationship between the task force and the PAC is that they all formed part of APLA. They were the military wing of APLA.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You surely must be incorrect here. PAC was not a military wing. We know that the military wing of the PAC was APLA, not the other way round, isn't that so? APLA was the military wing of the PAC, not the other way round.

MR LEEUW: APLA is the military wing of the PAC, and we as the task force assisted APLA in attacking the farmers according to the order by Sabelo Pama in 1991.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw you mentioned Operation Great Storm, would you tell this Committee what you know about Operation Great Storm?

MR LEEUW: Operation Great Storm was a joint venture of APLA and the task force.

MR MTHEMBU: During the launch of Operation Great Storm in 1991 there were certain objectives of Great Storm that were enunciated, would you tell this Committee about some of those objectives?

MR LEEUW: Yes I can. Operation Great Storm was formed in order to assist APLA to attack the farm owners because they were assisting apartheid regime by training women and children and they were also in the police force in the special branches. They were assisting in the oppression of

the Africans.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir were you a member of the PAC?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: When did you join it?

MR LEEUW: I joined in September 1990.

MR MTHEMBU: Have you received any military training of whatsoever kind, and if so what was the type thereof?

MR LEEUW: The training that I received was through John Showa who came with Oupa Kohla who were within in prison. He introduced John Showa to us and that was in June and he trained us and thereafter he did this in a house no. 337 in Botshabelo. He used AK47 firearms and a 3.8 and a Scorpion and a handgrenade and an R1. After June he left and he said he would come back in November. That was in 1991, in June, when he promised to come back in November. He did as he promised and he trained us again. And he brought one gun, 3.8 Special and left it with us and he said the rest of the armoury we will find it wherever we go and do our jobs. And he left the word that we must start working and go forward with the African struggle. And that's when I started getting together Daniel Magoda, Mishek May and Petrus Nkgwedi. We got all the training in June and in November again he trained us all again and left us only with this 3.8 gun.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir do you have any justification that your acts were committed with a political objective?

MR LEEUW: Yes this offence was with a political objective because it was in accordance with an order given by our commander that we must attack those farmers.

JUDGE WILSON: Your commander is the gentleman set out in your application form, Comrade Jan Showa?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know where he is now?

MR LEEUW: Yes I know.

JUDGE WILSON: Where?

MR LEEUW: He is late.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, after having killed Mr Fourie why did you spare Mrs May?

MR LEEUW: We did not see any reason for killing Mrs May. We were just beating her. It was just to let her pay the price and to show those who assisted in apartheid regime as to what will happen to them.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know her or anything about her?

MR LEEUW: No I did not know her.

JUDGE WILSON: So you don't know if she did in fact assist in the apartheid regime in any way? She may have been a fierce opponent, is that so?

MR LEEUW: I could not take any decisions about her because it was the first time I saw her.

MR MTHEMBU: You say amongst the articles that you took, they included items of clothing?

MR LEEUW: That is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Why did you take the clothing away?

MR LEEUW: By taking these clothes, it was the command that was given that we should take everything that we can assist those who were disadvantaged.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you do that?

MR LEEUW: Yes I did that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: To whom did you give that clothing?

MR LEEUW: These clothes were confiscated by the police. They were taken before we could do whatever with them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: After how many days were you arrested by the way?

MR LEEUW: After two days.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: And the coins that you found in the safe, why did you also remove that?

MR LEEUW: We also had to take that and hand that over to the organisation so that they should assist the APLA soldiers that were still in the bush, so that the struggle should go on.

MR MTHEMBU: And the vehicle?

MR LEEUW: We took this car and the Organisation was to decide what's going to be done with this car. It was to assist the APLA soldiers.

MR MTHEMBU: But now how would that vehicle have assisted your soldiers, using your words, knowing that that vehicle was stolen?

MR LEEUW: Our taking this car, the intention was to get transport to Botshabelo and this car could generate income to assist the Africans.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I don't understand you.

MR LEEUW: We were going to hand this car over to John Showa. He was going to make a decision about it, because he's the one who gave the order that if we can find a car we shouldn't leave it behind.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You talk about generating income to the Africans through this vehicle, that's the part I do not understand, how can a car generate income? It is an expense.

MR LEEUW: A car helps in an organisation.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How can it generate income, or did you make a mistake by saying so? It needs repairs and petrol must be put into it, the tyres must be replaced, it's just an expense, how can it generate income?

MR LEEUW: The car helps in the Organisation because we can help the soldiers with it.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, but the soldiers haven't got money because you are stealing money to give to the soldiers, isn't that so?

MR LEEUW: By taking these things doesn't mean we were stealing. We are doing this under the order of the Organisation. We repossess what the Whites didn't bring in this country in order to assist those disadvantaged in the Organisation, people who need clothing and everything that can help them survive.

ADV DE JAGER: I can understand the Boere or the farmers didn't bring their - or the Whites didn't bring the car into the country but neither did the Blacks, because there were no cars in this country. But to follow up on the question my learned brother asked you, you said you wanted this car to generate income, now that - the people must then pay for the car or pay taxi fees, isn't that so, if you want to get income from the car?

MR LEEUW: The commander would know about that because he's the one who told us about the car.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he tell you about the car?

MR LEEUW: We hadn't met him yet.

MR MTHEMBU: Ja, but before you went, what did he say about the car? Because it was interpreted, that he said you should leave the car behind....

JUDGE WILSON: No, "not" leave the car behind.

ADV DE JAGER: Not leave the car behind, oh, I missed the word "not". Right, did you steal any, or did you take any

other cars without killing people?

MR LEEUW: By taking this car we were actually getting what the Africans need.

ADV DE JAGER: But you could get cars, they are parked round in the streets here, why didn't you get a car here, or in Verkeerdevlei on the street corner?

MR LEEUW: We took the car where we did the job so that it should transport us.

ADV DE JAGER: So that was for your personal use the car, to transport you, to get away?

MR LEEUW: Yes we took it until we can get to the Commander, according to the instruction given by him because Organisation was independent, we didn't have any financial support.

JUDGE WILSON: How did you get to the farm?

MR LEEUW: We used public transport that goes to Brandfort and we used some footpaths to go to the farm.

ADV DE JAGER: You knew the vicinity very well?

MR LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You left there in 1975?

MR LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: So for 15 years you weren't on the farm?

MR LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: How old was Mr Fourie?

MR LEEUW: I do not know how old he was?

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't he an old man?

MR LEEUW: No he was not an old man, he was just an adult.

ADV DE JAGER: Because in the verdict here the Court says, the Judge, that they were two elderly people, aged people.

MR LEEUW: I don't believe that, it was not two elderly people.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw you have applied for amnesty and you have to play open cards with this Committee and just speak the truth. That vehicle, you knew it was stolen and you knew it could not be used on any public road because the police would easily have traced it, isn't that correct?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Now explain to this Committee how that vehicle could have been used in operations and how it could have assisted the Organisation?

MR LEEUW: This car would be of great help in the Organisation. We could possibly sell its parts so as to assist the APLA soldiers.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you are speculating now, are you not?

MR LEEUW: No Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I thought you said that it was for the Commander to decide what would happen with the car?

MR LEEUW: According to the question I would explain that it might generate some income.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir is there any particular reason why Stormberg Farm was singled out amongst all the other farms in the Verkeerdevlei area?

MR LEEUW: I chose that route. There were other farms that were targeted as well. I chose Stormberg Farm as the first one because all the things that I knew were on that farm were needed in the Organisation and the owner was the commander in the army. He played a role in apartheid.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Tell me this, the lady who was with Mr Fourie, was she a so-called White person?

MR LEEUW: I am not sure to which race did she belong.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What do you think to what race she could have been?

MR LEEUW: She was English speaking, she couldn't speak Afrikaans.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But many English-speaking people are White, that's why I asked you whether she was White. I didn't ask you whether she was Afrikaans or whatever, I just asked you whether she was White.

MR LEEUW: Yes, she was a White person.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir you mentioned that the late Mr Fourie was the commander of an army but he was clearly a farmer, what do you mean by that?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Question?

MR MTHEMBU: You referred in your testimony to this Committee that Mr Fourie (Speaker's microphone is not on) ...because he was a commander in the army, if I heard you correctly, but you lived on his farm, you knew he was not in the army, what do you mean by that?

MR LEEUW: During the weekends the farmers used to go to the police station and they used to assist the policemen and he was in command in this particular army of theirs.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir the next of kin of the late Mr Fourie, as well as that of Mrs May are not here today, but what would you like to say to them?

MR LEEUW: I would like to say I am very remorseful about the death of the deceased and therefore I am asking for forgiveness.

JUDGE WILSON: Did your father work for Mr Fourie?

MR LEEUW: My grandfather did.

JUDGE WILSON: And how long did he stay there for?

MR LEEUW: My grandfather passed away in 1994. He died on that farm.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was on the farm when you came and murdered Mr Fourie there?

MR LEEUW: He was dead when I killed Mr Fourie.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you said 1994. You said he died in 1994.

MR LEEUW: '74, 1974, I said 1974.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir do you have anything that you wish to add?

MR LEEUW: I'd like to add on by saying that it is due to John Showa instructions and I also ask for forgiveness from the deceased's family.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know any of the children of Mr Fourie or didn't he have children?

MR LEEUW: Yes I would be able to recognise them if I see them. He had two children.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they grown-ups when you left or were they still young?

MR LEEUW: They were married already.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they have children already at that stage?

MR LEEUW: I think it's like that as far as I can remember.

ADV DE JAGER: And do you know where they lived?

MR LEEUW: No Sir, I didn't know where they stayed.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have any grudge against Mr Fourie?

MR LEEUW: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he treat you well?

MR LEEUW: No he did not treat me well. He even took my father's cattle and my aunt as well, he hated Black people.

ADV DE JAGER: And so you - but that did nothing to you, you didn't have a grudge against him because he hated Black people?

MR LEEUW: Yes he did something to me because even my own

cows are still with him and my aunt's and even his promises he never fulfilled them.

ADV DE JAGER: Are your cattle still, at the time when you murdered him, your cattle were still on the farm?

MR LEEUW: I believe he had sold them by then because the cows that he had were quite a number then.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you ever go back to him and ask for your cows?

MR LEEUW: I would be asking for trouble if I did that, because he didn't want people to visit his farm. And moreover the people he dispossessed things, and therefore when we went there we wanted to repossess what was originally ours.

ADV DE JAGER: So you went there to repossess what was yours, and that was inter alia your cattle or the cattle he sold, you wanted your money back?

MR LEEUW: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: But why did - apart from anything you knew the farm, he in fact stole your cattle, and you were not interested in getting it back or taking revenge on him?

MR LEEUW: No I was not taking revenge.

JUDGE WILSON: But for 20 years you didn't bother to go and enquire to find out what had happened to this cow of yours, is that so? Did you never make any enquiries?

MR LEEUW: I never made any enquiries, it's because should I go there he would fight me, against me.

JUDGE WILSON: How many cattle did you have?

MR LEEUW: It was three.

JUDGE WILSON: Three cows?

MR LEEUW: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get them from?

MR LEEUW: From my grandfather.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What did you mean by saying that you went there to go and repossess what was yours?

MR LEEUW: To explain this, as we are attacking the farmers we were repossessing what was originally the Africans', it did not belong to the farmers.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: Is that your testimony Sir?

MR LEEUW: Yes Sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just give us an indication of the goods you in fact took from the house, the clothing, what clothing? Did you take all the clothing in the house?

MR LEEUW: No we didn't take all the clothing in the house. We found those coins and the two firearms and a camera and those clothes. And the groceries were already in the car because they had come with the groceries already in the car from wherever they came from.

ADV DE JAGER: At what time did they leave the farm?

MR LEEUW: It was at about one o'clock.

ADV DE JAGER: What day of the week was it?

MR LEEUW: I don't remember clearly, but it was on the 12th.

ADV DE JAGER: 12th of?

MR LEEUW: February.

ADV DE JAGER: 1991?

MR LEEUW: 1992.

ADV DE JAGER: 1992.

MR LEEUW: 12th of February 1992.

ADV DE JAGER: But it was during the week, it wasn't a Saturday?

MR LEEUW: Yes it was during the week.

ADV DE JAGER: And at what time did they return?

MR LEEUW: If I remember clearly it was at about six o'clock, because when we attacked them it was just almost sunset.

ADV DE JAGER: So from one o'clock until six o'clock they were away from the farm and you could have gone to the house and you could have taken everything you wanted?

MR LEEUW: Yes, but the purpose was to attack the White people who were oppressing through the apartheid.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't go there to get stock for the PAC you in fact went to attack the White people?

MR LEEUW: We were going to attack a White person but the order that we got from the commander was to attack the farm and this was the first farm and thereafter there were several other farms that were targeted as well.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, but I want to have the - if you could help me in this respect, you could have taken the clothing, you could have taken the guns without killing the people but it was part of your objective to kill the people and take the goods as well, or was it only your objective to take goods in order to assist the APLA soldiers?

MR LEEUW: We got this order from the commander, we didn't do this voluntarily. We got an instruction from the commander to attack the farmers.

ADV DE JAGER: You attacked the farmers and to get their possessions, did you also get the instruction from the commander to kill the farmer?

MR LEEUW: He did not specifically point out this farmer, I chose it specifically. I chose it as the first farm to attack and then we can proceed to the rest. And then we will take whatever we've got to the commander the next time

we meet him.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, no that's exactly what I say. He instructed you to go and fetch groceries and clothing and whatever you could get and bring it back to him. Did he also instruct you to shoot the people and bring the corpse to him?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Maybe we can divide it into instalments, did he instruct you to kill people, to kill the farmers?

MR LEEUW: Yes, John Showa gave us the instruction to kill the farmers so that the country should be back to the Africans because this land was never in the hands of the people, so it had to return to the hands of the people.

ADV DE JAGER: It wouldn't have mattered if he was a commander in the army you had to kill the farmers because they were in possession of the land?

MR LEEUW: In order to get the land back we got the order from the military that we had to repossess the land and hand it back to the Africans.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, and you would have taken as a target any farmer who had land?

MR LEEUW: That is why we targeted that farm and we will proceed to the next farm after we have finished with that one.

ADV DE JAGER: Until you have repossessed all the farms around there?

MR LEEUW: So that these farms must belong to the Africans because the land was dispossessed by the White people. The APLA wanted the land to belong back to the Black people.

ADV DE JAGER: So it wouldn't matter whether the farmer belonged to the army or whether he assisted the police, the fact that he had land that was the reason why you attacked

farmers, or anticipated to attack farmers?

MR LEEUW: The objective of APLA and the task force was to attack the farms in order to take back the land of the Africans.

EXAMINATION BY ADV THABETHE: Mr Leeuw can you briefly explain to the Committee exactly what instructions were you given by Mr Showa?

MR LEEUW: The instructions given by Mr Showa was to do our work and to continue with our war against the farmers.

ADV THABETHE: Did he specifically tell you which farms to attack?

MR LEEUW: No he did not specify which farms, he just said farmers in general.

ADV THABETHE: So you chose the farm owned by Mr Fourie, is that correct?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

ADV THABETHE: What were the reasons for you to choose that farm? Would I be correct, or would I be wrong if I say it was for your own personal experiences with him, the fact that he took your cattle, he didn't treat you well, would I correct if I say that, the reasons for you to choose Mr Fourie's farm, specifically?

MR LEEUW: The reason why we chose Mr Fourie's farm was to get the arms that we needed in order to use. At that time John Showa explained to us that we cannot get arms in the country, we can only get them if we attack.

ADV THABETHE: What I am trying to find out from you is your choosing Mr Fourie had nothing to do with your personal experiences with him, is that what you are telling the Committee?

MR LEEUW: Yes it was not for personal enrichment but just

to find the arms.

JUDGE WILSON: But he had very few arms compared to most farmers, isn't that so?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: One .38 and a Baby Browning, which was useless for your purposes.

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: So why choose him?

MR LEEUW: The reason was to get arms on that farm in order to continue with the African struggle, not targeting specifically Mr Fourie.

ADV THABETHE: Can I continue, can I proceed? Can anybody from - since Mr Showa is late, can anybody from the APLA authorities verify what you have just told the Committee members about the instructions that were given to you?

MR LEEUW: Yes there is.

ADV THABETHE: Can you tell the Committee the name of that person please?

MR LEEUW: The person who was with John Showa and accompanied him during all this training was Oupa Khotle and we were with him in prison.

JUDGE WILSON: Is he in prison?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: What prison?

MR LEEUW: Grootvlei Maximum Prison.

JUDGE WILSON: So he's available there now?

MR LEEUW: Yes he's still inside in prison.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Leeuw you stole a motor vehicle in 1987, is that correct?

MR LEEUW: I was needing that car when I stole it.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, your answer, I couldn't hear you.

MR LEEUW: I did not steal a car in 1988 as I was in the Organisation, my joining the Organisation was with the intention of assisting the APLA army.

ADV DE JAGER: In 1987? That was not this car, before this car.

MR LEEUW: Yes in 1987 I've got a car theft case.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, and you were convicted of car theft, of stealing a car.

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

ADV DE JAGER: And in 1974 you were also convicted of stealing, theft?

MR LEEUW: Yes it is so.

ADV DE JAGER: And in 1984 you were also convicted of fraud, is that correct?

MR LEEUW: No that I don't understand clearly.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you try to change a document in 1984 in order to get money or falsification of a document?

MR LEEUW: No Sir I don't remember that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you convicted of any offence in 1984?

MR LEEUW: I only remember the car issue and the theft.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Only two convictions?

MR LEEUW: Yes I can only remember the two.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When you say you remember only the two, what do you mean, are you implying that it is possible there might have been a third conviction but you might have forgotten about it?

MR LEEUW: That I cannot remember.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it possible then that you could have been convicted of some offence in 1984, quite apart from the motor car theft in 1987 and theft in 1974? Is it possible that you could have been convicted in 1984?

MR LEEUW: No Sir I don't recall them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But - thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you got the previous convictions?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Leeuw I would expect you to remember ...(intervention)

ADV THABETHE: Yes we do. Can I refer the Committee to the relevant page.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Can I complete my question please if you don't mind.

ADV THABETHE: Oh sorry, sorry.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I would expect you to remember whether or not you were convicted, can you really forget that?

MR LEEUW: If there is a case, maybe if you can tell me where and when maybe I will remember.

ADV DE JAGER: According to the judgment you were convicted in 1974 for theft. In 1984 forgery, page 7 of the judgment, and issuing a falsified document. There was nothing like say a driver's licence or anything falsified, or your ID document or some sort of document?

MR LEEUW: I don't remember because I got my licence in 1982 in Randfontein.

ADV DE JAGER: What happened to this vehicle that you have stolen in 1987?

MR LEEUW: It is still at my uncle's yard. I went to prison for that. When I came back I took it to my yard. It was in Botshabelo at that time. And the person who was charging me for the case he never said it was his car, but it was similar to his car. The engine is still in the car and the gearbox, in the boot of the car in Botshabelo.

ADV THABETHE: Mr Chairman the previous convictions

mentioned in page 7 of the judgment which is Section P

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: (Speaker's mike is not on)

ADV THABETHE: Ja, it's not in the SAP69, we've got the SAP69 but they only refer to Annexure A which I don't have. So we don't have a SAP69 previous convictions.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you got an SAP69 form for this applicant?

ADV THABETHE: No we don't. Mr Leeuw you say in your evidence your intention was not to rob Mr Fourie, exactly what was your intention?

MR LEEUW: My intention to take Mr Fourie's property was to find what was needed by the Organisation so that we would be able to continue with the APLA struggle.

ADV THABETHE: Mr Chair at some stage you enquired whether the victims were old or they were young, I just want to - I have no further questions for Mr Leeuw.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV THABETHE

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. Neither of us put our microphones on for that, I think it should be recorded that there was no re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU

WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV DE JAGER: You wanted to say something about the age of the victims?

ADV THABETHE: Yes I did Member of the Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

ADV THABETHE: In Section C, page 3, right down at the end there are particulars of the victims where it mentions that the man was 70 years and the woman was 74 years.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry where is that, I am sorry?

ADV THABETHE: Section C page 3.

ADV DE JAGER: Well perhaps then I would like to recall the applicant because he told us it was only adult people, they weren't elderly people. Could the applicant please come....

H LEEUW: (s.u.o.)

ADV DE JAGER: Would you consider a person of 70 years and a woman of 74 years of age as elderly people or only as adults?

MR LEEUW: I don't understand, because in a fight you don't - we don't regard age, how old are you. In a state of war we don't case whether you are young or old.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't worry whether they were young or old? You knew all the way round they were old Mr Leeuw, wasn't that the fact?

MR LEEUW: In our struggle PAC didn't make any division or any distinction as whether they are old or young. We go on with the African struggle.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Leeuw that's not what I've been asking you, what the people considered in the struggle. You knew these people were old, they were 70 years and over 70 years and you tried to give the impression that they were only adult people?

MR LEEUW: I would ask the Committee as to whether in during the fight, in a state of war do you make any distinction between those people who were young or old?

JUDGE WILSON: You picked this old man as a target, you have told us you chose him, I suggest you did it because you thought he was an old man who couldn't defend himself, and it has nothing to do with war. It was your choice of him as a target.

MR LEEUW: To choose that farm we didn't pay any attention to the age, we only concentrated as to whether how can we

enhance our struggle so that we'll get some assistance in that farm so as to continue our struggle.

JUDGE WILSON: Well how did that farm get to the top of your list? A farm that had one measly firearm in it, why was it the first choice amongst all the farms you had been told to attack, can you give any reason?

MR LEEUW: For us to prioritise this farm is because it has arms in it because Mr Fourie was one of those people who were senior within - or let me say during the weekend when they were collaborating with the police together with other White people.

JUDGE WILSON: That was 15 years ago or more, 15, 16 years ago, you hadn't been back since then you told us. He was now an old man, that you must have known.

MR LEEUW: That's not true Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: What's not true, had you been back there?

MR LEEUW: After that I didn't go back to that area.

JUDGE WILSON: After you left there in 1975 had you been back after that?

MR LEEUW: Yes I didn't go back again after that.

JUDGE WILSON: So you had no idea what he had been doing after 1975, except that he was now 15 years older?

MR LEEUW: What was important to us was not the age, what was important was to go on with the APLA struggle against the farmers.

JUDGE WILSON: You have not given one valid reason why you should have made him your first choice, can you do so?

MR LEEUW: I did explain that for us to prioritise this farm was that Mr Fourie had many arms, for us to get these two arms was not important for us to get other arms or to search for other arms.

JUDGE WILSON: But we know it's not true, he didn't have many arms. You found one weapon there of any use to you, so don't come and tell us stories about knowing he had lots of arms. Hasn't your attorney told you that you must be honest and frank with us?

MR LEEUW: I am telling the truth, there is no lie I am telling, I am telling the whole truth. Mr Fourie was one of those people who had many arms in the farms. We only took those who we thought they are important to us and were able to take.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you now suggesting you left other arms behind? Please....

MR LEEUW: I have to believe that we did. We searched for keys to open other safes, we didn't get those keys, therefore we were not able to get other arms there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there more than one safe?

MR LEEUW: There was another small safe, it was this kind of small, which we didn't get the keys for, for that safe.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You were not able to open that safe?

MR LEEUW: (No interpreted reply)

JUDGE WILSON: Will you indicate the size again?

MR LEEUW: It was at that distance, the length was that size and the width was that size.

JUDGE WILSON: 18 inches high and a foot wide.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So you were not able to open that safe?

MR LEEUW: We were not able to get the keys, the time we were asking this woman to give us the keys we were not able to get them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you know whether there were other weapons in that safe or not?

MR LEEUW: We suspected that there were arms in that safe.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And when you went there did you know that you would find only two firearms?

MR LEEUW: We didn't hope to get two firearms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When did you know that Mr Fourie kept weapons on his place? Was it during the time when you lived there or after you left?

MR LEEUW: We know that farm owners had many firearms, we used to see them with firearms in many instances.

JUDGE WILSON: We know that farm owners had many firearms, is that your explanation after saying Mr Fourie had many firearms?

MR LEEUW: Yes they had many firearms.

JUDGE MGOEPE: After your departure in - some 15 years before you never visited that farm again?

MR LEEUW: Yes I didn't go there again Sir, because my parents have already left that area, that farm.

NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY ADV THABETHE

NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chair I am informed now by the person leading the evidence that apparently the Commission has decided to sit until late this evening. Unfortunately I am sitting in another commission on taxi violence and we are due to take evidence at five this afternoon. But I have arranged with the person taking the evidence tomorrow, perhaps we can start earlier than nine.

JUDGE WILSON: We will adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, but should anything transpire in the interim and we need to get in touch with you, could you leave your contact number with Mr Mpshe?

MR MTHEMBU: I will Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Due to circumstances beyond our control we are now adjourning until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

HEARING ADJOURNS