MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman now I will call Mr Abel Oupa Khotle.
CHAIRPERSON: That name again.
MR MTHEMBU: Abel Oupa Khotle, K-H-O-T-L-E.
ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU: Mr Khotle which language would you prefer to speak?
MR KHOTLE: I will use Southern Sotho Sir.
MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Sir. Mr Khotle is it correct that you were a member of the PAC and its military wing, Apla?
MR KHOTLE: That is true Sir.
MR MTHEMBU: Would you explain your position in Apla regarding the Free State and Because?
MR KHOTLE: What I would say shortly is that I was a member of Apla, then I was operating as a regional commander in the Free State.
MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Sir. I would like you to address this Committee on two issues, firstly, what Operation Great Storm entailed and secondly why the PAC as a party was at Codesa negotiating, whereas Apla as the military wing of the PAC had not suspended its armed struggle?
MR KHOTLE: I will start with Great Storm. Firstly, Operation Great Storm, or in the 1990's was declared the decade of intensification of the armed struggle and the people's offensive. That is where the Operation Great Storm was originated from.
I would start by saying the thing which we need to understand firstly it was not the beginning of our struggle as maybe that would be the perception created now. At the time when we were changing our tactics in the 1990's so that we would be able to intensify our struggle under the PAC and taken by the military wing which is Apla.
POWER FAILURE - ADJOURNMENT
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR KHOTLE: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee in regard to the question posed by the honourable legal rep there I still want to maintain that the Great Storm was just a declaration decided upon by Apla's military commission which included the political leadership of the PAC, and that is both political leadership and military leadership of Apla. This declaration was meant, as a matter of fact Mr Chairman, to advance the struggle, that is the armed part of the struggle, and it included many phases which was to be carried upon, or carried out, but I will confine myself to the important phase which is now the attacks on farms or farmers.
As a matter of fact Mr Chairman it is known that the farming community, or farmers in general contributed a lot as they were either beneficiaries and they also upholded the values which was represented by the colonial minority regime then. So the attacks of farmers was also part of this declaration, that is Great Storm. So all in all it was nothing new or nothing old as the struggle by then was still going on, dated back from the day the PAC decided to form an armed wing or a military wing.
So briefly Great Storm was nothing else but a programme aimed at bringing pressure to the regime through such a means applied in the act in question today, that is the attack committed by my fellow comrades here. And I think that is the only thing I can say about the Great Storm. Of whether it was publicly announced, yes it was by our late army commander, Comrade Sabilo Pama. And as a matter of fact it was endorsed by the political wing, that is now the PAC itself because I don't remember anywhere where the PAC ever distanced itself from the Great Storm or Apla activities in general. So that is the only thing I can say about this Great Storm.
Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to talk about the second point?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.
MR KHOTLE: The second point is about negotiations, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR KHOTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Yes it is true that at the time there was negotiations going on. Firstly they started as, what do you call it, Codesa. Well but one thing important or one thing everyone should remember here is that Codesa never, never lasted, it collapsed and the PAC for that matter never took part in Codesa as it was clear that Codesa was not meant to bring about genuine change which would benefit the oppressed, exploited and social degradation of the masses of our land, but it was a structure aimed at putting the racist minority regime at the point where everyone, our peoples included, will say at least the regime is now trying to bring about change and we are happy about that. No, that was not the situation. The situation was that as I have said, Codesa was aimed at portraying the racist minority regime as a regime of goodwill, a regime with intention to do away with oppression, exploitation and degradation of the African masses. After its collapse they devised another way of bringing about, that is all the different political parties or political organisations in the country, hence the talks at Kempton Park. These talks, yes, the PAC partook in these talks, and it participated while at the same time its component structure or military arm, Azanian People's Liberation Army was still active on the ground. Apla continued with activities, military activities with full knowledge of the Pan Africanist Congress, with the approval of the PAC as in the first place Apla was not either a bandit or rebel army but an army aimed at enhancing political objectives of the PAC through military way.
So by then there was no order, political order from the PAC which partook at that talks, that is an order saying Apla stop your military operations. And the talks themselves did not mean that we had freedom. The fact that it was talks it means peoples were trying to reach a solution through negotiating.
So one other thing is that it is not, that is the talks did not come from nowhere themselves, they came as a result of the struggle waged by our peoples, militarily, politically and otherwise. They never came as a result of the release of some leaders from prison, they came as a result of concerted pressure by our peoples in their struggle of liberation, and the very same peoples who were released, for that matter, from prison they were released because of the pressure mounted by our people on political fronts.
So what I am trying to clear here is that yes, the armed struggle did continue at that time of negotiations but they did not come from nowhere, they came as part of the struggle by our peoples. And the only time that the political leadership, that is of the PAC, decided to issue an order restraining or suspending the armed activities of Apla was in 1994, if I still remember well, on the 16th of January. So that is the only time when the PAC decided to suspend the armed struggle.
So what is clear here is that Apla, as a military organ of the PAC, did immediately after that order, political order, suspend it unilaterally, the armed struggle. So all in all our struggle started long back ago as we all know, not in 1959, not in 1912, but we must remember there were the Bambatha rebellions, there were the Sekukhune battles and all Moshoeshwe fought, I mean battles, and the likes. Our struggle started the day the European man landed in our land, that is the 6th of April 1652, that is the day our struggle started, because on their arrival they declared war. They went on holding Africans as their captives, killing Africans, maiming Africans and they encroached in our territory through armed means, so that is clear that as a peaceful nation, the African nation we did not declare any war on anybody, but peoples came from far away, Europe, and declared war in a land foreign to them.
So Mr Chairman I don't know whether the question has not been answered and if it has not been answered I will hear from you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I think your counsel must decide whether he has got everything that he wanted from you. Are you satisfied?
MR MTHEMBU: I am Mr Chairman and I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Mr Khotle at one of our hearings, that is amnesty hearings in Cape Town, you remember the killing from the United States, Amy Biehl, you remember that very well I know?
MR KHOTLE: Yes.
MR MPSHE: There was a counsel that was representing your fellow comrades, Advocate Nona Gozo and I am going to quote to you what she said about Operation Great Storm. She is on record on a video tape if you want to see it hereafter.
She said Operation Great Storm was targeted mainly at rendering the townships ungovernable, what's your comment to that?
MR KHOTLE: My comment will be as follows. Firstly, our understanding and interpretation of some of these things as human beings will really not be the same. She might have been right, partly, and still I might, in fact I am right in my understanding, interpretation of the whole Great Storm issue as I was after all involved and part of Apla.
MR MPSHE: Okay. And further on she said, I am quoting what I am going to quote in relation to this incident that brought us here today, she said Operation Great Storm was mainly directed at State property and State personnel, those were the targets for Operation Great Storm. Now if you read that statement it excludes private persons, what's your comment to that?
MR KHOTLE: Well I will repeat it again, partly the person might be right in so saying, but there is one thing we must all understand and that is our understanding as the youth, as members of the PAC, as members of Apla, Paso, Azanian, Awu and all structures involved in the structure is that our operation was not an operation made by a selected group of people, that is from a selective, a particular community Sir. What I am trying to say is that our understanding of the whole set-up is that our operation was as a result of the whole European peoples and we treated them as members of the whole South African oppressors company, that is our understanding. We regarded them, the whole White community, as members of the South African oppressors company. We are not oppressed by the National Party alone, nor the Conservative Party alone, but there are differences in that is enhancing oppression was not an issue to us. What was an issue to us is that they were all stakeholders in the South African oppressors company.
MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Khotle, thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, is it not a fact that as a result, and I think it is common cause that as a result of Operation Great Storm certain private persons were attacked, allegedly, under Apla's operation, the Heidelberg incident, the Amy Biehl incident as you have already referred to the St James incident and so on, it went on, as Apla's way of intensifying the struggle under the banner of Operation Great Storm?
MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and Madam, that is actually a fact and that is confirmed by what the witness has just said. That is correct, thank you. That is all Mr Chairman from me.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you would like cleared up?
MR MTHEMBU: No Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming along to give evidence.
MR KHOTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman we have 15 minutes left, I think a lot can be done in 15 minutes, the former witness is now - has come to myself, I think we may continue.
MS KHAMPEPE: Shouldn't you ask Mr Mthembu if he is in a position to proceed?
MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I have not been able to ascertain whether he's in a position to continue or not, may I just briefly ascertain whether he is in a position to do so.
CHAIRPERSON: Indicate to him that we have no further questions to ask of him.
MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman thank you for the indulgence I have no re-examination of the witness, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I am sorry you haven't been well, I hope you get well soon.
MR MOHAPI: I am asking for that light to be switched off.
MS KHAMPEPE: We have finished with you, you may go back to your - you may step down.
MR MOHAPI EXCUSED
MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I have no further witnesses to call. That will be the applicant's case.
APPLICANT'S CASE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe do you propose calling any evidence?
MR MPSHE: No Mr Chairman I do not intend calling any witnesses Mr Chairman. I refer the Chairman and members of the Committee to the letter submitted marked "X" pertaining to the next of kin to the victims Mr Chairman and that will be the end of the matter on the part of amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I am not in possession of Exhibit X.
CHAIRPERSON: It's a very short letter. It's a letter from Mrs Smith who was present in March when the first hearing was supposed to take place. Mr Mpshe have you got a copy?
MR MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I have a spare copy here.
MR MTHEMBU: I'll appreciate it Mr Chairman just for my record purposes.
CHAIRPERSON: Let it be recorded that this letter from Mrs Smith, dated 20th August 1997 will go onto the record as Exhibit X.
EXHIBIT X - LETTER FROM MRS SMITH HANDED IN
MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you propose to address us?
MR MTHEMBU ADDRESSES: Mr Chairman I propose, with your permission of course, that I be allowed to make written submissions. If the Committee could give me a date by when I should make such submissions, my reasons are the following Mr Chairman. The manner in which the roll was chopped and changed this week I have a difficulty with that. There are six applicants on behalf of whom I should make argument on presentations and my fear is that perhaps we will not be able to get to the applications today, that of May and Mxhosana, and as such if we don't come here today I will not be in a position to further conduct Mr May and Mr Mxhosana's application as I have since taken other engagements for tomorrow as I had been told that we would be sitting up until today.
Furthermore Mr Chairman I will need some time to sift through the evidence and to make a good argument for each applicant. But I am at your mercy Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: We would like your argument to be as helpful as possible to us, and I can understand your request.
MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe the Committee is of the view that he should be allowed to make written submissions to us on behalf of his clients. Have you any objection to that?
MR KHOTLE: Mr Chairman I have no objection Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Now just as we have agreed to your request I want you to know that we work under a very tight schedules ourselves. I would like you to cooperate with us by telling us what is the earliest date by which you can make your submissions available to us please?
MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman by the 12th of September.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the earliest?
MR MTHEMBU: That is so Mr Chairman. My problem is that for the next two weeks again I will busy with two other applications and I don't want to commit myself and say in a week's time.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, it will be recorded that counsel for the applicant will submit his written submissions to us by the 12th of September this year.
MR MPSHE: That is noted Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What do you propose doing now Mr Mpshe, can we adjourn now and resume at a quarter to?
MR MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman we can adjourn and resume at quarter to two, and start with the next matter, Mxhosana and May.
MR MTHEMBU: It is so Mr Chairman when I mention that I have not yet consulted with Mr Mxhosana in that the defence force could not release him timeously, he was only released yesterday evening, although I have consulted with Mr May, but I haven't consulted yet with Mr Mxhosana, but maybe I will do so in the lunch break.
CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will adjourn now and resume at a quarter to two.
