Amnesty Hearings

ADV PRIOR: The 14th of September 1998, and the amnesty applications of Etienne Jacobus le Roux and Others proceed. Representation of all parties are as before. I understand that the applicants are in a position to proceed with their further evidence.

Sorry, are you on record? Sorry Mr Chairman, Mr Van Zyl appears for a victim in the Jan Smuts Airport attack and is present. May he just place himself on record?

MR VAN ZYL: As it pleases you Chairperson, Johan van Zyl on behalf of one of the victims in the Johannesburg International bombing. The victim's name is Mr Percyville Moshwetsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I understand that Mrs Van der Walt, you are leading the first witness. Who is he?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, this is Mr Johan Smit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, which language would you prefer to speak?

MR SMIT: Afrikaans.

JOHANNES COENRAAD SMIT: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Smit, were you a member of the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes, since the middle of 1991 I joined the AWB in the Wenkommando. Since 1992 I was a Captain in the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were also an accused in the case where the applicants appeared or made application for amnesty in front of this Committee?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that was a case that was held in Johannesburg before Judge Flemming?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were then found not guilty on all charges?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your training as a member of the Ystergarde, what did this entail?

MR SMIT: Well, my training, after my training my instruction was to train other members of the Wenkommando in order to begin the war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you carry knowledge of an incident that occurred in 1993 at the World Trade Centre in Kempton Park?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just in short tell us why you went there and the reason why you went there?

MR SMIT: At that stage the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche did not agree with his Generals in Staff with what happened in CODESA at the World Trade Centre.

We went there in protest and to say that we will not stand for the ANC government and we will fight for our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just explain something to me. Did I hear you correctly, that the fact that you went to the Centre was because the leader Mr Terreblanche, did not agree with the election?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I also understand you correctly that what the members thought, did not matter?

MR SMIT: To an extent it did matter, but it was more - it had to do more with Mr Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I continue? Can I just ask you in answer to the question of the Chairperson, the AWB as a whole, at that stage, when you went to the World Trade Centre, how did the AWB and the members feel with regard to the negotiations with the ANC?

MR SMIT: They did not agree with that at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the AWB at all take part in any negotiations up to when you went to the Trade Centre?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the World Trade Centre, what happened there?

MR SMIT: At the World Trade Centre, the march was not as peaceful as we all thought. It was occupied and Terreblanche said that we will not agree with this type of negotiations, that we will make war.

MS VAN DER WALT: That attitude, was that discussed with the members?

MR SMIT: With what happened before the World Trade Centre, there were meetings whether public or closed, it was said that we will make war. That attitude was not taken in at that stage, it was discussed beforehand.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank at that stage?

MR SMIT: At that stage I was a Captain in the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the Ystergarde, what section is that in the AWB?

MR SMIT: That is a specialised unit that was used in the training with the rest of the members. It is shooters, self defence, patrols, any training and that was their task and instructions.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I understand your evidence correctly, it seems as if the training that you gave, was military training?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Up to the time when you moved up to the Trade Centre, were there a change after the happenings of that day? Did this change take place in the AWB, did any change take place in the AWB with their feelings towards the negotiations?

MR SMIT: Can you just repeat your question please.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did a change occur in the AWB or was the Trade Centre, was that a turning point in the viewpoint of the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes, definitely.

MS VAN DER WALT: How?

MR SMIT: In that the previous government, the NP government at that stage did not want to acknowledge or accommodate the right wing.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about accommodate, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: It was well known that all the right wing parties stood for a Volkstaat, that we wanted our own land and goals and no one wanted to give this to us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there then changes that took place in the training that you had to give after that?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. Instructions were given that people must be sharpened in their training, that we must make more preparations for the war that will take place.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell me Mr Smit, can you remember, more or less when the incident in the World Trade Centre occurred?

MR SMIT: If I can remember correctly, it was approximately in October.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember how close it was to the elections?

MR SMIT: It was approximately one year.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I refer you to June 1993, could it have been during that time?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then provide any training after that day at the Trade Centre?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. Approximately every weekend after that.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that period, was there any inspections held by the Generals in Staff of the AWB?

MR SMIT: That is correct yes. From time to time the Generals in Staff as well as Terreblanche would travel through the country. They would meet people at training camps, look at their ammunition, food supplies, etc.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about food supplies, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: It would be tinned foods, in other words non perishables.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the weapons and ammunitions, what do you refer to?

MR SMIT: It would be handguns, shotguns and at some places illegal weapons and explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also mentioned that there were training in explosives. Can you maybe just elaborate on that?

MR SMIT: That is correct, although it was not in my area, certain people, old Defence Force members were experts in explosives, who would give people private training in these camps and they were chosen people. That was for warfare.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Honourable Committee, there were evidence led with regard to the Boere Krisis Aksie.

MR SMIT: Could you just repeat please?

CHAIRPERSON: You said that these people were the chosen people?

MR SMIT: Just to come back to that point, the people who were chosen there were either chosen by the Commander or the Generals in Staff, they were well known as they said, who would not turn their backs on them.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would take you back now to the Boere Krisis Aksie, can you just tell the Honourable Committee, you now in answer to the question of the Chairperson, said that it would be drawn back to the Generals in Staff.

How did the Generals in Staff and the ranks under them, how did this work? Could you just explain this?

MR SMIT: Let us say that the General of the Gauteng area had 100 people under him, and all of them had their Commanders, and if a Commander chose a person to undergo explosive training, this person would be taken apart and he would then report back to the General and say that this and this person received the training in explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: You now talk about the General of Gauteng, these Generals, are there different Generals that were deployed in the country?

MR SMIT: Yes, in all the old Provinces there were a General.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these Generals, do they then gather and have meetings and report back, or what is the situation?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. It would be the normal Generals in Staff meetings where Terreblanche would be as well.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is Terreblanche's position with regard to the Generals in Staff?

MR SMIT: He is automatically the leader of the AWB and has got the last say and approval of all tasks that had to be executed.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Generals in Staff, evidence was led that they had Order Group meetings, can you explain the Generals in Staff, would they come together in an Order Group meeting and if so, what is an Order Group meeting?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. They gather in an Order Group meeting. These meetings are closed, it would only be the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Boere Krisis Aksie, do you carry knowledge of such an "Aksie"?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is it and where does it fit in?

MR SMIT: The Boere Krisis Aksie was another right wing organisation, most of the AWB members were part of this organisation and most of the Boere Krisis Aksie members, were members of the AWB, so it was a coordinated action.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the difference?

MR SMIT: There wasn't really a difference. Everybody stood for the same goals, although some of the members were not AWB or Boere Krisis Aksie members.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, if everything was the same then?

MR SMIT: I cannot explain that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who would be considered as the leader of the Boere Krisis Aksie, would that also be Eugene Terreblanche?

MR SMIT: No, I do not know who he was.

MS VAN DER WALT: These inspections that you talked about that were held, you said that was on a regular basis?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What do you mean by that, on a regular basis, can you say?

MR SMIT: Let us say once a month, these people were brought together either for training camps or just for inspections of the equipment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive instructions to in the Commando's and the Commando members, get equipment for a purpose?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: For what purpose?

MR SMIT: That was for warfare.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you receive these instructions?

MR SMIT: We received the instructions more intensely after June 1993 after the World Trade Centre incident.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was a meeting held in Ventersdorp, the Committee heard about this, it was a meeting that was held at the Trim Park. Do you carry any knowledge of this?

MR SMIT: Yes, that was the 2nd of April 1993, sorry 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: Evidence of the applicants conveyed that they were not sure of the date, some said it was in February or March. Are you sure?

MR SMIT: Yes, I am sure it was the 2nd of April 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: This meeting were addressed by various leaders?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell the Honourable Committee, was this an open meeting or a closed meeting?

MR SMIT: The first part of the meeting was open, after that it was closed.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about an open meeting, could the media be present?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the television?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your impression with regards to this meeting that was held there? Let us just look at the open meeting?

MR SMIT: Well, the impression that was created by all the speeches that were held, was that the war is very close.

MS VAN DER WALT: This meeting, was that opened with prayer and reading?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: By an ordinary member?

MR SMIT: It was done by a Reverend but who was also a member of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the message that he conveyed to you?

MR SMIT: That was war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then Eugene Terreblanche ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about a Reverend?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A minister?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Eugene Terreblanche also talked?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct, just after Mr Manie Maritz.

MS VAN DER WALT: Eugene Terreblanche, did he at any stage in that meeting say anything about negotiations?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his message?

MR SMIT: We would negotiate across the barrel of a gun.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he at any meeting before the elections say that he will take part in the elections?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his attitude right through this period?

MR SMIT: That he will not vote, that he will disrupt the election completely.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this meeting, this open meeting, what happened then?

MR SMIT: After the open meeting, all the people were divided into certain groups, where the Ystergarde also formed its own group.

In this period all media people and cameras were removed from this area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you then divided into groups?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the reason for that?

MR SMIT: The reason for this was that the Generals and the Commanders of each group and sections for communication or medical sections, had to sort them out and to see if the equipment were in order.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know Chris van der Heever?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What rank did he have?

MR SMIT: He was a Fighting General in the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his responsibilities?

MR SMIT: Chris van der Heever at that stage, was responsible for all the provision of medical equipment and he would have been able to get Ratels from a military base close by in Zeerust.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I put it to you, was he in charge of the Special Forces?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that happen, that he got hold of Ratels?

MR SMIT: No, not at all. It was withdrawn just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe him that he would have been able to get hold of them?

MR SMIT: At that stage Chris van der Heever was Commander of the Wits Command. He had a lot of say in other Defence Force Commands.

CHAIRPERSON: But what made you think that he was telling the truth and not just trying to show off?

MR SMIT: To go back, at various meetings Eugene Terreblanche said the Defence Force is on the side of the right wing and this and this percentage.

This old Special Forces member had automatic say in the whole process with the right wing and the Defence Force, that they would communicate with each other in order for us to get hold of these equipment.

MR MALAN: Can I just make sure, did you say Chris van der Heever was a Combat General in the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: At the same time he was a Commander of the Wits Command?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: He was actively involved?

MR SMIT: Yes, actively.

MR MALAN: Are you sure about this?

MR SMIT: Yes, I am definitely sure about this.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just elaborate on this aspect that the Defence Force and the Police would help the AWB in their struggle?

You said that Terreblanche at various meetings said this?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there other people except for Terreblanche, who also confirmed this?

MR SMIT: Not that I can think of at this stage, no.

MS VAN DER WALT: At one stage evidence was also led that Constand Viljoen also had certain meetings with the AWB, do you carry any knowledge of this?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you present at these meetings?

MR SMIT: Only one at the end of 1992, beginning of 1993.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his attitude with regards to the Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: He supported the idea like Mr Terreblanche and everybody said after that that the Volkstaat would be the only thing that would save us now.

MS VAN DER WALT: At this stage I would just like to show at this stage a video of events that occurred, and I would like to lead on that.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am not going to show the entire video, merely bits thereof. The video will of course be available to other members of legal teams.

Perhaps I should just show the video entirely, and then we can lead the evidence regarding that.

VIDEO FOOTAGE: We ask our Chaplain General to open this meeting for us. I am going to read a section to you from the Bible, we came to the land which you have sent us to, the land of milk and honey, the land of fruit. But the people of this country had died, and the cities have been destroyed. And we saw the children of the Levites, those in the southern land and the amorites in the mountains, and those living by the sea and in Jordan.

The people were silenced and Moses said, let us withdraw because we can overpower them and take over their land. But someone else said we cannot withdraw the nation and so the rumours spread through the children of Israel which said the country which we withdrew from, and the people we saw there, are great. We saw giants there. Children of the giant.

Verse 30, let us withdraw and take occupation later, because we can surely overcome them. It is wonderful for me that the media can have such an effect on people. That is what the anti-Christian powers want, they want to influence the beliefs of the masses if we look at the press, the radio and the television, which has infiltrated our homes, and the masses have simply taken them up.

My fellow people, our security does not lay in what the world promises our people, because your and my security lies in the safety of God, of Jesus Christ who died on the cross for us.

We will not be those "bywoners" in South Africa, we will not be influenced by communism. We do not have to make any apologies for our presence as white Boer Christians here in this southern tip of Africa.

God's hand of provision has brought us thus far. God has given this country to our people by means of two covenants. God's Word says today that the Lord your God, gave the country to you to earn as your parents and your parents before them, have told you.

The question is, are we prepared for this or are we getting cold feet? The people must remember the promise that we will occupy the land. The moment of glory has come. We have been chosen to go and investigate the country and to report back. We have investigated the country, it is a great country with rich cities and its occupants are giants, its cities are fortified. We look like dwarfs in comparison.

We cannot occupy this land. We do not have the proper weapons with which to arm our people. It is very dangerous and we are walking into trouble with open eyes. We will be destroyed.

Let us turn around, we cannot risk it. Then Joshua reported and said the country which we have investigated is a good and fruitful land, the milk and honey overflows. Let us withdraw and then occupy, because we can certainly overwhelm it. That which the Lord will give to us, is good.

But as usual, the report of the majority was accepted, and what a sad story. A tragic story of a nation who had thrown ... (tape ends) ... Piet Retief, that the country had been explored.

I want to ask you this, how are you and I in our attitudes, by means of our God given rights to this land? How do we feel about our call as Afrikaners in this country as those who were chosen to take up this legacy given by God our Father?

How do we stand towards this country which was given to our people by God. God's country is there, we must just occupy it, God gave us this country. We cannot negotiate about this land.

I wonder if our people realise the seriousness of this choice. People who have the enormous responsibility of preserving God's property, that is our responsibility. That is the responsibility of the Boer volk, to reserve, preserve and develop this country which was given to us by God.

Our people have been misled, thousands have died. That is our exact problem, everything is at our disposal. The riches and the words of God which are full of promise, this country with its possibilities which God gave to the people by means of a vow, what are we doing with it?

Do we take it up for ourselves or are we ruining our chances? That is what Israel did. They created a land of opportunity, but they lost it because they did not have faith. Because they did not have faith, because they stood away, stood back from the cities and the giants, because they would rather chose the little that they had.

Because they stood in opposition to these powers, but thank the Lord, that Joshua and his partners, did not agree with this view. They saw the Hand of God which would lead them into this country. It is the Hand of God which made the promise that you will occupy this country. You and I must remember that we got this country by means of the vow.

This is the country which our predecessors, our descendants left for us. We must not fight and argue. There are many women and children in this country, which was dipped in the blood of war.

I want to say to you this morning that God has given us this country already. You and I must occupy and conserve that which God has given us, even though the world says whatever it says. We must remain thankful that I should never have to report to Mandela or De Klerk. You and I will answer to God and we must answer to the question what did you do to the property that I gave you?

What did you go with this country that I entrusted to you? Did you cultivate it, did you create a legacy out of it for your descendants? We must tell God today that we will fight for that which is ours.

Let us fight then. Let us fight for this country which God has given us and let us fight on the same side. Let us take each other's hands. Let us walk the path of faith. Let our story never be the same as that of Israel.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is Mr Manie Maritz, I will only show the last portion of his speech.

VIDEO FOOTAGE: I could not believe how many we are, we are enough. The first thing we must remember is that we are white people, but the most important thing of all is that we believe in God who helped us out of Blood River.

I say that I am a descendant, I am a white man, I am a descendant and I am proud to be a white man. I have nothing against the black man, but he is not my neighbour, he is not a member of my volk, and that is why I say to my people that we should take up each other's hands and the hands of those who must fight with us.

I want to say to you today that the revolution is at hand, let us begin it, thank you.

VIDEO FOOTAGE : EUGENE TERREBLANCHE: When we came to the Fatherland, we came to listen and talk and make a joint decision because Paul Kruger said that in the voice of my volk, I hear the voice of my God. That is why it is important for us to participate in today's proceedings. The volk must talk, because therein lies the task of our volk.

The volk is a faithful volk, which has committed itself to make this country wealthy through cultivation. We have committed ourselves to this country in God's name and to give it down to our descendants.

The honour and the wealth of victory will always depend on God. A house will be built in your name and we will tell our children to the furthest generations, that this is what our volk did. We have always used you in the meetings of our volk, especially with regards to the annexation of Transvaal when the Boers felt the humiliation of the loss of their sovereignty, the volk gathered at Paardekraal and said what can we do?

The volk packed the stones and spoke to God. That is when the volk decided that we cannot live in subjection, the volk was not prepared to give in and from there, the first freedom war emanated and twice thereafter the Boers stormed up Majuba mountain and took back the freedom of the volk, which was from the most powerful empire at that time, the British Empire.

Those who determine the direction, those who are the natural leaders only 5 000 people from the Boer republic, went up Majuba mountain and took part in a battle which was the same as that of Blood River.

Militarily speaking we had the best base. Earlier during the parade it was asked whether or not 80 percent of us sitting here, were in Bophuthatswana. You know that when you were welcomed and blankets were given to you, this was after Rowan Cronje and I had an agreement with Bophuthatswana and the former Rhodesia that the AWB's presence would be felt there.

In an operation area while the Bophuthatswana Defence Force was in mutiny, while the Police were all in mutiny, Viljoen's Officer was sent to the AWB in spite of our agreements and he said the AWB must get out. They are enough to handle the situation.

When his body was ripped of the vehicle and the vehicle was shot down, and the convoy was stopped, all six wounded were taken up and taken to a place of safety and this was executed within a barrage of automatic gunfire and the blacks retreated despite the fact that our bullets could not penetrate their armoury.

The fire of the Boers who shot through the tiny hole which they could see, and that is how we saved the day. Our casualties the following morning, was zero. Not one single AWB member had died, five were wounded and on the other side, according to the SABC, 50 had died and 285 had been wounded.

Apparently they are still running. I know of no military set-up and I am a militarist, I did patrol work for a long time, I was on the border of South West Africa where I fought for a year and 14 days. I am a militarist, it is my interest and I know of no other battle in which ordinary vehicles with handguns and shotgun fire, fought against military vehicles and ammunition, which left no single Boer casualty during that incident.

Regarding our friends who were taken out of the convoy, they were occupied by the Bophuthatswana government and shot dead. There they were murdered in cold blood by the State. This Honourable Chairperson General, the blood which flowed there, is blood which heralded the beginning of the freedom struggle with the participation of thousands of men and women and children.

We must now allow that our volk feels alone. We must support our volk with sincere prayer so that the Comforter of grief and tears can be felt.

I feel very proud as a leader in front of proud soldiers, men of courage and determination. There was never any retreat, cowardice or lack of order. There was always discipline. I must tell you that I thought many times that I should also have left, but I did not because if I had turned around, there would have been people who said turn around and shoot, because some of our people might have died in that event. That is why I thank my Corporals. They led a convoy out of an ambush, which deserves the admiration of the world.

I thank my staff, thank you very much. When I listened to Mr Willem Olivier - indeed we are threatened and people are fighting against us, the powers of Hell are fighting against us. We must remember that our Christian Creator would never expect anything from us which we cannot manage. He would never expect of us to become a Jodi Scheckter all of a sudden and becomes the world's best driving champion.

He wouldn't expect of us to climb into the boxing ring tomorrow. He would never give you a task which you cannot handle. He would only show you what to do if it is possible for you to do it. If you think about the handful of Voortrekkers in the ox wagon who braved the fever and the illness alone, the illness which killed them, if we think about that, it would never have occurred to us that the Boer could win at Majuba and they did, despite all of this they did.

If we think about the Battle of Blood River where we faced an enemy of 30 000, and even then we became famous in battles of the world which we won. We were made strong by our God. When it came to fighting against the Zulu's and the Xhosa's, we had to fight against obstacles, we still fight against obstacles such as communism.

These are our political enemies. We must fight against the bombardment of communism from the Eastern countries. We must sound the trumpet of the volk and announce that we are here today, we must say the country is good, let's take it.

We will look like locusts in comparison to our enemies, because they are giants, but this view is not entirely of application, because the group which is threatening us is not a group of giants, and we are not like locusts.

That is why I say that by means of our experiences and our intellectual abilities and our spirit and the spirit of God which runs through your veins, you can never see yourself as a locus then, because of that. We are the giants then, we are the white giants.

We were mentioning figures during the last couple of meetings and we have seen that there are thousands of Permanent Defence Force members. There are 250 000 Commando and active Civil members of which 180 000 at least are right-wingers. The South African Police of which 80 percent are right-wingers, and if you add on the 180 000 of the Defence Force Commando members who are right-wingers to the South African Police, and the 65 000 AWB members, then we are more than prepared.

We have the minority of whites, but we have the majority of soldiers among us. Umkhonto weSizwe which has 28 million people under its representation, only has about 7 000 members, not 15 000 members.

We have come out of the heart of the volk for the AWB. Not only are we the right-wingers, but we have suffered humiliation, fraud and other hardships, but we have become the strongest right wing organisation in this country.

I challenge you then as Officers and as believers that I have stood before audiences and called and begged and scolded until I have gathered 60 000 of you together. Now fetch them and arrange them in your Commando's because there are very few choices.

Next month this time, we will have become part of a new State and those three sixes will hover above our fatherland in the air, or will we have our Volkstaat, no matter how big or how small. We want our own piece of land in which we can protect our 60 000 men, women and children. These are our options.

I have told you that I will never accept an ANC government. Since then I have never changed my mind, and therefore I cannot say anything else. I must say it once more.

I am what you have made of me. My task is fulfilled in the obtaining of the Volkstaat. I just want to tell Viljoen and some of the others, that I refuse to place my Generals in command of people whom we cannot trust.

With the greatest possible level of co-operation and the Boere Krisis Aksie, the greatest level of co-operation with all our friends, and with the men and women and children who are prepared to take the oath of loyalty. You will see that there are more than 60 000 of them.

There will be a time when we fill find our final resting place and that will be when we ultimately obtain a much bigger Volkstaat than what Mandela had ever planned for us. I promise you that when we have won the war, Mandela will ask us for land and then we will decide whether or not we could do away with a centimetre or two.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson. You have watched the video, is that the meeting which took place at the Trim Park?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: It appears to have been on the 2nd of April 1994?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was also your view before the video was shown, that the impression which you were under was that all addresses and speeches given, the prayer and the Bible reading was seen as preparation for warfare?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Can the witness not be led in that fashion? I am complaining about the leading question that was just put to that witness, it was not a question at all, it was a statement to which he said yes about a critical matter here.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I led this evidence before the video and I am simply confirming it with regard to the video. I don't know what Mr Bracher's contention is.

CHAIRPERSON: The influence which you were speaking of before we saw the video, is that also part of the influence which we saw during the video?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have also listened to the speech made by Mr Terreblanche. Was there at any stage ever said to you, even during closed meetings, that members of the AWB were to participate in the elections or not?

MR SMIT: It was never under any circumstances ever said to us that we would participate in the elections, we were simply to disrupt the elections.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have testified that after the meeting, you were divided into groups?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the video mention was also made of call up instructions?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you ever receive any call up instructions?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When?

MR SMIT: On that specific day, the 2nd of April 1994, it was said to me and to other members that people should prepare themselves, war is just around the corner and that we would receive our call up instructions shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which war are you speaking?

MR SMIT: Before the elections, Mr Terreblanche and his senior Generals in Staff were all speaking about the war, and by that they meant the disruption of the elections, that an election should not take place, even if we were to use violence to prevent it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the basis of what followed?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only basis?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore the elections were not to take place?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Smit, why was it necessary to prevent the elections?

MR SMIT: As Mr Terreblanche said on video, it was our common sentiment that we would never stand beneath an ANC government. He also said that the majority were on the ANC side and we were the minority of manpower.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay, what was the situation with regard to the Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: What do you mean?

MS VAN DER WALT: Were any discussions ever held with regard to a Volkstaat and what was said to you?

MR SMIT: That is correct. It was never said that we would ever take a small piece of land of the country as a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche said on many occasions that even though it was a small piece of land for 60 000 people?

MR SMIT: Yes, but he said after that, that Mr Mandela would have to come begging for a centimetre or two.

CHAIRPERSON: From that small piece of land?

MR SMIT: No, from the entire country.

CHAIRPERSON: And everybody realised that this would spread throughout the country?

MR SMIT: Yes, it was about the entire country, not just a small piece of land.

CHAIRPERSON: This small piece of land upon which the Volkstaat would be established, was the entire South Africa?

MR SMIT: Yes, the entire South Africa, all four of the old republics.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Smit, on the video a map was shown, did you see it?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was that map?

MR SMIT: That was a map of the Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which areas did it comprise?

MR SMIT: Basically the old four republics?

MR MALAN: To which four republics are you referring to?

MR SMIT: Natal, Cape, Free State and Transvaal. The Provinces.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the video, certain towns were indicated which were situated in Western Transvaal, did you see that?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the meaning of that?

MR SMIT: At that stage especially the Ystergarde and certain sections of the Wenkommando were sent to protect certain areas in the Western Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why that area specifically?

MR SMIT: Because our Headquarters were in Ventersdorp in the Western Transvaal and before these incidents, before the elections, most of the towns in Western Transvaal, like Ottersdal and Sannieshof were the major AWB strongholds.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know the organisation by the name of WESBOU?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this particular day, the 2nd of April 1994, did you receive any further call up instructions?

MR SMIT: Yes, I did. Approximately round about the 19th of April 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, and what was said to you?

MR SMIT: I was told that I should get my people together and that we should move up and gather in Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you speak of your people, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: That would be the direct Ystergarde members who fell under my command in that region.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you live at that stage?

MR SMIT: I lived in Vanderbijlpark.

MS VAN DER WALT: And so therefore you included that area?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do then?

MR SMIT: After that I gathered some of the people, amongst others Jaco Nel. We met and we drove from Vanderbijl to Pretoria where we gathered and from there Mr Hanibal, Jaco Nel and other people who were involved, collectively moved to Abie Fourie's smallholding near Vereeniging.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Jaco Nel, he is one of the applicants?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hanibal, what do you know about him?

MR SMIT: Rudi Hanibal received his training from me. He was also one of the key State witnesses in the hearing in 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that your rank then was Major?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then you went to Mr Abie Fourie who is also an applicant in this matter?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his rank?

MR SMIT: He was a Commandant in direct command.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, and then where did you go?

MR SMIT: We waited there basically the whole night for his brother Gert, who had to come from Standerton. They all arrived at Abie Fourie's smallholding and after that we left for Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: The call up instructions which you received, what exactly did that entail? What did you hear and what was conveyed by you to the others?

MR SMIT: Our call up instructions were to collect all our food, all our weapons and all our people together.

MS VAN DER WALT: It wasn't told to you what you should do after that?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then at Ventersdorp?

MR SMIT: We arrived there, we were addressed by Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe who told us that we were here to make war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Nico Prinsloo, he was the General?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. At that stage he was Secretary General of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that is the gentleman sitting next to Mr Prinsloo over here?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you do then?

MR SMIT: After that we were taken to Mr Kloof Barnard's farm where we stayed and prepared ourselves, our provisions and our weapons for the war which was at hand.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you speak of us, are you referring only to your group or other people who were there as well?

MR SMIT: No there were other people who were also present, they had come from other parts of the country.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there many people?

MR SMIT: We were approximately 30.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was evidence that the women were moved to Ottosdal, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. The women were not happy about living in the bush and we moved them to Mr De Wet's farm in Ottosdal where they resided.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know anything about whether the Army would have been involved at that stage with this entire operation?

MR SMIT: According to my knowledge, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know about the Army bases in Zeerust?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What would they have done?

MR SMIT: The Army base in Zeerust was an old Infantry Base and they would have provided all our armed vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that?

MR SMIT: That came directly from the Generals in Staff, among others Gen Chris van der Heever, the Combat General.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay, the women had been moved to Ottosdal and the men, where did they go then?

MR SMIT: After that, the men left for Mr Leon van der Merwe's farm where we began the whole thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Leon van der Merwe, what was his position in the AWB?

MR SMIT: At that stage, he was the Head of the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his relationship, was he quite involved with AWB Headquarters?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct, he worked for AWB Headquarters.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Gen Prinsloo?

MR SMIT: He also worked for AWB Headquarters.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was evidence that this group of people then left for the game farm?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any orders at that game farm?

MR SMIT: Basically we were told that we should prepare ourselves and our equipment, that we should be ready to make war and that we should be prepared.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: The AWB members would usually take an oath of loyalty, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you remember that oath?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you say it to the Committee?

MR SMIT: If I walk ahead, follow me, if I turn around, shoot me. So help me God.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you understand with this oath when it said if I turn around, shoot me? What was that to you?

MR SMIT: That would mean if I wanted to retreat as a coward and did not want to fight any longer, that I should be shot.

MS VAN DER WALT: This order which you received there from Gen Prinsloo that there would be no turning back, what did you understand by that?

MR SMIT: That we were there for good.

MS VAN DER WALT: To do what?

MR SMIT: To make war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it correct that there were many other people from other regions at that game farm?

MR SMIT: Yes, amongst others from Natal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know whether apart from the game farm, there were any other places in Transvaal or in the entire region, where there were people who had also come together?

MR SMIT: That is correct. Koster, at some or other holiday resort approximately 1 000 people had gathered there.

MS VAN DER WALT: That would also be during that same time?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any other groups who had gathered?

MR SMIT: Yes, I don't know exactly which places they gathered at, but I know that they gathered throughout the entire country.

MS VAN DER WALT: So therefore not only in the Transvaal?

MR SMIT: No, not only in the Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: What were your duties during this gathering at the game farm?

MR SMIT: I was in charge of all guards and guarding systems who were supposed to guard the farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: These people who had moved along to the game farm, could they move in and out freely?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened?

MR SMIT: There had to be special permission before you could leave the game farm. The reason for that was that we were afraid that any information or planning that we had undertaken, could be leaked out to the Police or other agents of the government.

MS VAN DER WALT: Headquarters in Ventersdorp during that period in time, do you know whether Eugene Terreblanche was present there?

MR SMIT: I wouldn't be able to tell you.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the Saturday, that is the Saturday before the elections, you were on the game farm at that stage?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did any planning take place on the night before?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened?

MR SMIT: Among others it was planned to steal 4 x 4 vehicles, the only reason for that was that the terrain upon which we were moving, was not suitable for the usual type of vehicle and we needed other vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any communication between the game farm Camp and any other persons outside the camping area?

MR SMIT: We struggled to establish a communication system and the only other communications which we could establish, would be with Nico Prinsloo who had to drive to AWB Headquarters from the farm all the time, to obtain information.

MS VAN DER WALT: He was on permanent basis?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know of any person living at Koesterfontein?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who were they?

MR SMIT: Abraham Myburgh who lived on the farm at Koesterfontein. That is where the explosives were stored.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Smit, your evidence was where you arrived at the game farm, that Sunday, the Sunday before the election, you were also at the game farm?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened there that evening?

MR SMIT: There was a closed meeting held by myself, Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe and Abie Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Mr Johan du Plessis, also an applicant in this matter?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. He was also present at this meeting.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was discussed at this meeting?

MR SMIT: At this meeting it was basically strategy and the planning of this whole operation that we wanted to execute and we did the final planning.

MS VAN DER WALT: To what operation are you referring to?

MR SMIT: That would be the so-called warfare.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was decided?

MR SMIT: We decided that we would only target black taxi ranks, we will not go into white areas to unstable that areas, in order to disrupt the whole election.

CHAIRPERSON: How would that have happened?

MR SMIT: That would have happened through bomb plannings.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole bomb planing process was targeted at black people?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct. Yes, it was directly targeted towards them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR SMIT: If you look at the old dispensation, they were the enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR SMIT: That was how we believed it to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MR SMIT: No one said that. Every person felt like that in his heart.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole attack was based on racism?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But how does it work then?

MR SMIT: The new government is an ANC government. The ANC government exists 99 percent out of blacks, so the election had to be disrupted in order for black people not to take over the government.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am talking about the enemy and that the black people were the enemy. That was your belief. How can it not be racism? It is based on the colour of a person's skin?

MR SMIT: If you want to look at the colour of the skin.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is what you testified?

MR SMIT: If white people would come into this area where we would plant these bombs, he is white, left or right, we are sorry for him. In no war you find friends.

The people who fight in this war, are your friends. Nowhere were there racism involved.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand this. You said that the bombs were targeted at black people. There were talk of the protection of white people.

The bombs must not explode there where white people will be and I accept as far as possible.

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said if I understand your evidence, that the rational behind this over the years was that it was the belief that the black people were the enemy?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that they were always the enemy. In this country we know that the colour of a person's skin is the only way, or were the only way to distinguish people from black or white?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is the only way in which you can distinguish white or black people, that is the colour of their skin.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not racism?

MR SMIT: No, not in my eyes. No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is racism then?

MR SMIT: Any person is a racist. The definition of that is a person who loves his nation or volk.

CHAIRPERSON: A person who loves his nation or his volk, then he is a racist?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In South Africa in the way in which I understand your evidence, it was the chosen country of the white people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of that, the black people were the enemy?

MR SMIT: At that stage, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correct that under the chosen people, there were not one black person?

MR SMIT: Which chosen people?

CHAIRPERSON: Those who were chosen to govern this country?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis was this decided?

MR SMIT: It is about the Volkstaat. In parts of the Volkstaat, it would be as in the old dispensation in that black people had to leave the country and go back home, let's say at ten o'clock at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not true that according to the belief that God gave this country for the chosen people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And under those or amongst those chosen people, there were not black people?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask this, from this viewpoint was the Bophuthatswana attack which was known as a black State, how is this reconcilable with the AWB's policy?

MR SMIT: It was targeted at international fame and national fame, firstly for Mr Terreblanche and then for the AWB.

ADV BOSMAN: How do you mean targeted for, are you saying that he wanted to make his name known in the attack on Bophuthatswana?

MR SMIT: That is correct. There was another motive and that is to begin this warfare. Later, we would also have attacked Bophuthatswana, who would we at that stage protected and made this part of the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And when this happened, the AWB lost, is that not true?

MR SMIT: Where did they lose?

CHAIRPERSON: In Bophuthatswana.

MR SMIT: No, not according to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I just get clarity on one point. When we watched that video, the snippets we watched, I didn't hear Mr Terreblanche say that black people are your enemy, they have always been your enemy. The impression I got and the way it was translated was that it is not a racial issue. Where then do you get the idea that this war, this operation, was about the AWB attacking black people because black people have always been the enemy?

MR SMIT: Through the years black people always as in the Heidelberg, or the black people always killed the white children and people, and in that case it was the same.

ADV GCABASHE: If you were executing an operation that you thought was authorised by your leaders, you seem to be going beyond what your leaders had been saying to you just a few weeks ago about black, white and what the issue really was?

This is really where my problem is. Your leaders weren't saying black people were the enemy, therefore we attack them?

MR SMIT: They didn't say it at all.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but this is what you are saying the rationale was, at this meeting that you held at the game farm and your whole operation was based on this issue of black people are the enemy, therefore we headed for black taxi ranks and never mind that a certain area is a white ANC area, that would not be an issue for you at all, even though you might have known that a particular area is white and strongly ANC?

MR SMIT: As I would have given evidence furthermore, the whole West Rand, Jo'burg of which Johannesburg is the largest liberal area. That was the target area.

So if we started at black taxi ranks, there were the largest support base of the ANC was, that was the target area.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the discussion was furthermore about explosions or bombings that would take place?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What bombings were discussed on this particular evening, that is now when you were with Leon van der Merwe, Nico Prinsloo and Du Plessis and Abie Fourie?

MR SMIT: I am not quite sure which explosions were discussed.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the meeting, was there any discussion with regard to pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct as well as a trailer bomb of which the trailer was the property of Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Regarding the pipe-bombs, what was discussed?

MR SMIT: We discussed that we would build these bombs in Koesterfontein. These bombs had to be used in these bomb attacks and we had to use the equipment we had.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were any instructions then executed after this discussion with regards to the pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes, people were called together. In groups of two, two or three, three instructions were given to plant these bombs at different places.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say people were brought together, of which people are you talking about?

MR SMIT: That would be the people that were gathered at this game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, the people who were there were then aware of the fact that pipe-bombs would be thrown?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know where all these pipe-bombs were going?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave the instructions that pipe-bombs had to be thrown?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now Nico Prinsloo, his rank was that of a General?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When he gave you these instructions, how did you see that? Did he personally give the instruction, where did this instruction come from?

MR SMIT: He conveyed this instruction personally, but the instruction that he gave to us was coordinated with his driving to Ventersdorp Headquarters where the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche were and where they discussed it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he at any stage tell you that it came from the Generals in Staff?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you are not quite sure where all these pipe-bombs went?

MR SMIT: No, I am not.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did missions go out then to different areas?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You say that there was also discussions with regards to a trailer bomb?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that at the same time or was this discussed at the same time when you were discussing the pipe-bombs?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was discussed?

MR SMIT: Mr Cliff Barnard said I am going to use this trailer of Mr Eugene Terreblanche to build this bomb. Mr Nico Prinsloo then answered and his words were that he will have to tell the "Oubaas" that his trailer will be used.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that these bombs could kill people?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you agree with this?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: From the start?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You now mentioned Cliff Barnard who spoke there, but you initially testified and you did not mention that he was present. What is the situation there?

MR SMIT: I just forgot about that.

MS VAN DER WALT: This trailer, can you just elaborate on that. You said that he said that he will personally go to Terreblanche and tell him. Of who were you talking when you say he, himself?

MR SMIT: I am speaking about Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Nico Prinsloo tell this to Barnard?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: That he will use the AWB's trailer?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any other discussions concerning the trailer?

MR SMIT: No, they said that the registration plate will be removed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know that Sunday morning a bomb exploded in Breë Street?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know who planted the bomb there?

MR SMIT: Yes, at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: At what stage, after the bomb exploded?

MR SMIT: Yes, after it exploded.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who told you this?

MR SMIT: It was a closed group of us who stood there and amongst others Jan de Wet, whose vehicle was used in this trailer bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am talking about the Breë Street bomb in Johannesburg?

MR SMIT: I am sorry, I am confused now.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am talking about the Breë Street bomb in Johannesburg, did you know who planted the bomb there?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this discussion took place, what happened to Cliff Barnard?

MR SMIT: He and Koper Myburgh and Koekemoer ...

MR MALAN: Just before you continue, I am confused now. I understand that you said that the discussion was about the pipe-bombs and the trailer bomb. If I heard you correctly you gave evidence in the line of that the pipe-bombs were built at Koesterfontein?

MR SMIT: Yes, all the bombs were built at Koesterfontein.

MR MALAN: Is it true that the pipe-bombs were built there or did it come from another place? Other evidence was led that it came from another place?

MR SMIT: The final product was at Koesterfontein.

MR MALAN: Did you see this yourself?

MR SMIT: No.

MR MALAN: Why are you so sure about this, that is what I would like to know?

MR SMIT: Well, Koper Myburgh, Cliff Barnard and this Koekemoer, they lived at Koesterfontein during that period when we were at the game farm. They brought all the stuff from there to the game farm.

MR MALAN: But Mr Smit, you were at that meeting that evening and the first time bombs were discussed then in your presence?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct, and that is when they brought the bombs there.

MR MALAN: No, but you are talking now about them being at Koesterfontein. What knowledge did you have about that?

MR SMIT: That is what they told us.

MR MALAN: So they told you that they built the bombs at Koesterfontein?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did they arrive there at the meeting with the bombs?

MR SMIT: No, not with the bombs, no not at the meeting, but after the meeting took place, the people left the hall, all the people. They gathered on the verandah of the hall where the workings of the bombs were explained to them.

MR MALAN: You said that you had regular contact, I think you talked about driving to and fro from Ventersdorp and the farm and you had contact with Mr Terreblanche and Gen Prinsloo?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But with all this driving to and fro, when you heard about the bombs that were built and which would be used, and when they talked about the trailer, then he said he will have to go and tell Terreblanche that they will use the trailer.

MR SMIT: Well, I do not know if Terreblanche's trailer was taken without his permission.

MR MALAN: But you knew that he was in contact with him?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: And you did not ask him then, you did not ask him why did you build a bomb in Terreblanche's trailer without talking to him while you go there every single day?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo never built bombs.

MR MALAN: Mr Smit, the evidence that you gave here, is that within your knowledge and memory? It is really difficult to follow you on this?

MR SMIT: I can just testify about things that were told to me, other things I cannot testify about.

MR MALAN: That is my problem. You testify about things that were said to you, but that does not make sense within the framework of your evidence.

Are you sure that it was then said to you?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: I find it very difficult to follow you.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I just get clarity for you. The person who was in contact with Headquarters, who was this?

MR SMIT: That was Nico Prinsloo.

CHAIRPERSON: During that meeting where this trailer was discussed, who had to go and tell Terreblanche that his trailer will be used for a bomb?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo would go back to tell Terreblanche that Cliff Barnard took his trailer to plant a bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: According to what you understood there, it was that Prinsloo knew that Barnard took this trailer?

MR SMIT: That is correct because Barnard in this meeting said I went to get the "Oubaas's" trailer.

MS VAN DER WALT: So he did not carry any knowledge of that before that incident?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the people were gathered outside and there was a demonstration held, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes. I was not present there throughout the whole demonstration, I was in charge of the guards and I had other tasks.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who presented the demonstration?

MR SMIT: It was Koper Myburgh.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did this entail, this demonstration?

MR SMIT: What I could hear and see was how long it would burn, how it is ignited and that is basically that.

MS VAN DER WALT: In other words, it is the workings of this pipe-bomb?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you said that the missions then went out?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was the Monday just before the elections? That is the evidence that is in front of the Committee?

MR SMIT: That is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then moved from the game farm to another destination?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you go?

MR SMIT: We went to the shooting range just outside of Rustenburg.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any other discussions held at this shooting range outside of Rustenburg with regard to any explosions?

MR SMIT: There were quite a few meetings, discussions about people who wanted to go back to their families, to go and greet them, and as well as the planning of which I was not part of, of the Johannesburg, Jan Smuts bombing.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the people went home to go and greet people, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: Initially people thought that this would be a very short thing, but after all these explosions and bombings Gen Ackerman amongst others said at the game farm, that the bombs were looking good, we are on full steam, we continue and this would be a long term thing.

CHAIRPERSON: This was the beginning of this was?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have hopes that you would win this war?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With how many people in the military wing?

MR SMIT: What military wing?

CHAIRPERSON: Those who would help the AWB to win this war?

MR SMIT: At that stage there were 1 200 people at Koster as I testified earlier on. Countrywide people were gathered, I cannot say that there were 20 000 or 50 000 people, I cannot say.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it only be AWB members who would be part of this war?

MR SMIT: No Sir, as I testified earlier on the Defence Force, Police, Commando's they would provide us with vehicles and men.

CHAIRPERSON: The contact in the vehicles was Gen Viljoen?

MR SMIT: I don't know who the contact was. I cannot say.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know then that the military people of South Africa would assist the AWB?

MR SMIT: Like you saw on the video, they gave us numbers and before the election they said that so many Policemen and so many Defence Force men will support us, and we went on that information.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I am asking this is on that same video, there was apparently problems between Terreblanche and Viljoen, that was on the 2nd of April?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How is it then that you thought that the AWB can receive support from Viljoen is there is problems between the leadership?

MR SMIT: We would not have supported Viljoen.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not in charge or at the Head of the Military wing of the Security aspect?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not have any knowledge that he was the General of the Defence Force?

MR SMIT: Yes, I knew that.

ADV BOSMAN: At that stage, when Mr Terreblanche and Viljoen had problems, what was Viljoen's position then with regards to the Defence Force, was he still in the Defence Force?

MR SMIT: At that stage, as far as my knowledge goes, he was not a member of the Defence Force any more. He had his own right wing movement and that was the Volksfront.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then that according to you, Viljoen would not have anything to do with the war of the AWB?

MR SMIT: In the beginning or in the beginning of the planning, he was involved until he decided to vote.

CHAIRPERSON: But when did you then discover that he is going to vote?

MR SMIT: It was just before April 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not a few days?

MR SMIT: It was just before the bombs went off.

CHAIRPERSON: The bombings occurred around the 27th, 28th of April.

MR SMIT: I haven't got the exact dates.

CHAIRPERSON: And we are talking now about the 2nd of April. You see, evidence was led earlier on that indicated that the support of Viljoen and the Defence Force carried a lot of weight, and some of the evidence was that they did not know that when bombs were planted, that Viljoen indeed pulled out?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But on this video apparently on the 2nd of April already, there were problems between the two?

MR SMIT: I cannot testify about that.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think, you personally?

MR SMIT: At that stage it did not even come up that there were problems between Viljoen and Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: So you thought that the AWB would still receive support from Viljoen or the Defence Force?

MR SMIT: No, I did not think of Viljoen at all, but I still thought that we would receive support from the Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you think that would happen?

MR SMIT: Well, like Chris van der Heever said of the vehicles that we would get at Zeerust, military weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: And men?

MR SMIT: Yes, we did have the men. Terreblanche said we had 60 000 men.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say 100 000 men, did you think that 100 000 men would win a war in this country?

MR SMIT: I would win it with 5 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you believe that?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: Can I just follow up here, why do you believe that with 5 000 men you would win it?

MR SMIT: At that stage I did believe it.

MR MALAN: You believed it then? Can I just follow the following up, you said that the men went to go and greet their wives for the last time?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why do you say that?

MR SMIT: At that stage like I also testified, it was within a time span of 24 hours from when we left the game farm and the afternoon when the men left to go home where Gen Ackerman said that we cannot turn back, things are looking good, we now continue.

So we went to go and greet them and then continue with this war for a month or a year.

MR MALAN: You see, you initially thought that it would be very short and the evidence that we received from all the applicants was that they accepted that it would be a long period because they sold all their assets, they brought their families with them. The women were there.

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that they would build up a community there to start the Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: That is correct. Every person had his own view.

MR MALAN: But you testified that it would be a short period of time and then everybody would go home?

MR SMIT: That is correct, everybody had his own opinion. I left all my things at home and I would have gone to fetch it.

MR MALAN: Don't you want to talk just for yourself then, you said we and our group. Every time you talk on behalf of the group. If you have an opinion, please make it clear that you are busy with your own opinion.

MR SMIT: Yes, I will do that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you carry any knowledge that people left their homes and left their work?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did they do this?

MR SMIT: Like I said everybody has his own opinion. They thought it would be a long thing, I thought it would be a short thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: You further mention that at the shooting range, there was a further discussion with regards to explosions?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you hear there?

MR SMIT: I heard that the last bomb must go to Jan Smuts airport.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave this instruction?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you hear why it had to go to Jan Smuts?

MR SMIT: Yes, it was for international publicity, in order to stop or prevent any international investments and communism was supported by foreign countries.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was present when this discussion took place?

MR SMIT: It was myself, Abie Fourie, Johan van der Merwe, Nico Prinsloo and Johan du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the white people that would have been killed in that bomb?

MR SMIT: Like I said earlier on, in war there is no innocent people. There are no innocent people.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then remain or stay behind at the shooting range?

MR SMIT: No, I also went back to my home. I then went to my parents' home in Pretoria.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Gen Ackerman that you are talking about, what is his position in the AWB?

MR SMIT: I am not quite sure, all that I know is that he was part of the Generals in Staff.

MS VAN DER WALT: Evidence was led that there were two Ackermans. Of which Ackerman are you talking about, the one who was at the shooting range?

MR SMIT: It was Dirk Ackerman.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was at the shooting range?

MR SMIT: No, it was at the game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any other Generals who visited the game farm, except for Ackerman?

MR SMIT: With him was Alec Cruywagen and then a third person whom I do not know.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did they visit this game farm?

MR SMIT: You now mentioned a meeting where the pipe-bombs were discussed. Was this before or after?

MR SMIT: It was after, it was the morning of the 26th of April.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was the morning before you left for the shooting range?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Statements were made to some of the applicants that the people who acted there at the game farm and at the shooting range, was a splinter group or the people at Koesterfontein. What is your comment on this?

MR SMIT: No, it was not a splinter group. All the groups from Koster and the shooting range and countrywide, we were a combined group in instructions from the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if there were any other explosions, except for those in Johannesburg and in ...

MR SMIT: That is correct. The Boere Krisis Aksie just before the election, they took responsibility for certain bombings at power lines.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if it was done by the AWB?

MR SMIT: No, not before we started working at the game farm.

MR MALAN: Can I just take you back to a previous question. You now again said that the people were gathered all over the country by the Generals in Staff.

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But before you were asked about that, you said that you did not know. Can I just ask you, is it not true that the evidence of the applicants were that they came from the Free State and some from Natal?

MR SMIT: Yes, there were people from Natal.

MR MALAN: No, but also from the Free State, if I am not mistaken.

MR SMIT: I cannot say who came from which town.

MR MALAN: My question is if people came from Natal to Ventersdorp, what would make you think that there would be gatherings in Natal as well?

MR SMIT: That was the information that we received?

MR MALAN: From whom? Why would the people from Natal then go to Ventersdorp, why won't they gather there?

MR SMIT: It wasn't a thousand people, it was a small handful of people. I didn't say thousands.

MR MALAN: I asked you why do people from Natal come, if there is a gathering in Natal in any case?

MR SMIT: I do not know what the situation is there, I cannot give evidence about why he came to the Transvaal.

MR MALAN: My question is directed at something else. My question is actually what is the grounds on which you say that there were gatherings countrywide? The applicants said that according to their knowledge and perceptions, there were other gatherings within the Volkstaat area, but you are certain about the fact that there were gatherings all across the country.

You first talk about the four republics, and the Cape was included and everywhere there were people gathering. Where would the war then start or begin? The evidence and you were at the Trim Park, is that we will start from a small place and we will then continue and later Mandela will then come and beg for a piece of land. How are you so sure that they gathered all across the country?

MR SMIT: That was the information that I received and that is as simple as that.

ADV BOSMAN: From where did you receive this information, can you remember?

MR SMIT: Yes, it was either at a public meeting or closed meeting, talk was that people would gather all across the country.

MR MALAN: Didn't they say that people will gather from all over the country?

MR SMIT: I don't know if there is a difference.

MR MALAN: What does gather mean?

MR SMIT: It means to come together.

MR MALAN: You come together at a certain point?

MR SMIT: I think the most suitable word would be points.

MR MALAN: How do you know that this was the planning?

MR SMIT: That is the information that I received.

MR MALAN: So you had other information to the applicants?

MR SMIT: That is possible, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that some of the other Generals were present as well.

MR SMIT: There was Ackerman, Cruywagen and a third person that was not known to me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did they have a meeting there or what was the situation?

MR SMIT: They basically, I wasn't in a meeting where they were present, but the previous evening they arrived, they slept there. I cannot testify about meetings that were held. The next morning they said the bombs looked good, continue. We continue with the struggle.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were then arrested, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, the morning of the 27th of April.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the Jan Smuts then explode?

MR SMIT: At that stage I did not carry any knowledge of that and while detained, I heard about this. They said look what you have done.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just tell the Honourable Committee how it happened that you testifies in front of this Committee.

MR SMIT: Out of my own free will.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you approach anyone?

MR SMIT: Only you as a legal representative.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we start, Mr Van Zyl, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG: Mr Smit, there is something that I didn't quite understand regarding the way you are going to wage your war. Is it your evidence that the bombs were actually targeted only at the black people?

MR SMIT: Did you ask me whether the bombs were aimed solely at the black people?

MR MOTLAUNG: That is correct.

MR SMIT: I would say that over the entire Rand area the greatest target was soft targets such as taxi ranks and so forth.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I understand that you call some of these things soft targets, but the main import of my question is were all the bombs ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motlaung, I can tell you that he did give evidence to that effect.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, you say that according to you, this was not racism?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: And tell me, if this amounted to racism in your view, would you have gone on with the war?

MR SMIT: At that stage in my heart I believed and felt that it was right, that we should wage the war and that we would maintain that which we had built up.

CHAIRPERSON: That who built up?

MR SMIT: That which the whites had built up in their existence in this country.

MR MOTLAUNG: And you say that according to you, no innocent people were to be killed?

MR SMIT: No, I didn't say that. I said that one would never find innocence in any war.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now tell me, the people at who the bombs were directed, the taxi ranks amongst others, were they not the innocent people in your mind?

MR SMIT: I have just said that there were no innocent people. Take note, no innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Maybe I don't understand the answer, what is the answer?

MR SMIT: I said that in no war would there be innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: That I understand that some innocent people can be caught in the crossfire, but what I am asking is these people at the taxi rank, the ones that you actually aimed to kill or maim, were they not innocent?

MR SMIT: Let us just get away from this idea of innocent people, there were no innocent people. The aim was to kill and injure people, to do anything to disrupt the elections.

In other words there are no people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Why weren't the voting places not blown up?

MR SMIT: The objective was to disrupt the election, it was not to take place and that is why everything had to happen before the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: If that was the target and if the plan was to prevent the elections, why then didn't you blow up the ballot boxes?

MR SMIT: The 27th of April ...

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of putting people's lives at risk.

MR SMIT: Whether we blew up the ballot boxes or not, people would still have died. The major objective was that these actions were to take place before the 27th of April, not on the 27th of April and not after the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So the bombs which were planted on the 25th were correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct, before the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is why I am asking why weren't the ballot boxes blown up before the 27th?

MR SMIT: Because they would have found another place to place the ballot boxes and hold the election. The idea was to disrupt the election entirely so that it would not take place, so that people would not go to the ballot boxes on the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: So bomb explosions would take place at the taxi ranks and that would have prevented the elections from taking place?

MR SMIT: That is what we hoped for.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Motlaung?

MR MOTLAUNG: Mr Smit, as far as the bombs are concerned, did you have any role to play yourself?

MR SMIT: No.

MR MOTLAUNG: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: Mr Smit, what are your full names?

MR SMIT: Johannes Coenraad.

MR BRACHER: Did you tell the story you have told this morning, to the Criminal Court?

MR SMIT: I did not testify in the Criminal court.

MR BRACHER: Did you plead not guilty?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Were you represented by Counsel?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Have you applied for amnesty?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: As I understand the evidence, you were aware of the Jan Smuts bomb and the Boksburg bomb and the pipe-bombs before they occurred, and you were part of the organising structure in the meeting, is that correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Are you prepared to accept personal liability for the injury and damages and death that were caused there?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Why not?

MR SMIT: I have no desire to do that.

MR BRACHER: Do you accept personal responsibility, I don't care whether you have got the facilities or means or not? If I issue a summons against you, will you consent to judgement?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to place it on record that the very same Mr Bracher with regard to the previous amnesty applications, also issued a similar threat.

I would like to put it to the Committee that this was quite a problem for the applicants. The applicants are here and it is the Committee's duty with regard to the Constitution and the Law, the applicants are here to present the truth to you, they are also here to present evidence before you so that you, the Honourable Chair and the rest of the Committee, can construct the bridge which is mentioned in the Constitution among the divided community which existed and the future which lies ahead of us.

How can it be expected in this country that reconciliation be achieved, if these applicants arrive here with the greatest will in the world and they try to present evidence which would support their applications, if they are forced to do so under duress.

CHAIRPERSON: What is wrong with the question?

MS VAN DER WALT: It is a threat Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you see it as a threat, it is a simple question?

MS VAN DER WALT: To ask this applicant whether or not he would accept accountability for a civil claim, if that is not a threat Mr Chairperson, then I don't know any more.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure whether it was a threat, I don't know if it was intended as a threat, because this witness is not an applicant.

MS VAN DER WALT: He is not an applicant, but he is being threatened with that, with a civil claim, and the same thing happened on a previous occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: I really wouldn't be able to say if this is a threat, it was simply a question with regard to whether or not he would accept accountability. Yes, Mr Bracher?

MR BRACHER: As the Chair pleases. I just want you to understand that what you are doing today is confessing to a crime, and confessing to a civil wrong which makes you personally responsible. Do you understand that?

MR PRINSLOO: At this point, I would just like to intervene, with respect, that Mr Bracher was aware of the fact that this man was an accused before Judge Flemming. He is aware of what the allegations were.

I don't know where he is coming from.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Prinsloo that he can clear this up with regard to this civil case which he is mentioning. Quite honestly, I don't understand what the problem is with the question.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, I don't understand what the relevance is of the civil claim if any such evidence cannot be used, any evidence which is given here, cannot be used in a civil claim?

CHAIRPERSON: Allow him to answer the question, then I will tell you.

MR BRACHER: Do you understand my question?

MR SMIT: I prefer not to give evidence any further regarding this matter. I did understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not want to answer the questions?

MR SMIT: I will answer the question but if I am going to be sued because of this, I wish to say nothing further.

MR BRACHER: Is Nico Prinsloo here today?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Do you know if he is going to give evidence?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Can you point him out to me please?

MR SMIT: He is sitting right next to Mr Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: Mr Smit, what did you do in the war?

MR SMIT: In which field?

MR BRACHER: Anything, tell me something you did to fight this war? This great war to get your homeland.

MR SMIT: Well, to begin with I trained people before the elections. I was part of a group of the group who was at the game farm and those who were going to distribute the bombs.

MR BRACHER: The trailer bomb group?

MR SMIT: I had knowledge thereof but I did not execute anything like that?

MR BRACHER: Did you consider yourself to be part of the trailer bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of the Boksburg bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of the Jan Smuts bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Was this discussed in a meeting at which you were present?

MR SMIT: There were senior members present at that meeting.

MR BRACHER: (No sound)

MR SMIT: Major - the whole Ystergarde of the Gauteng area.

MR BRACHER: (No sound)

MR SMIT: It is very difficult to estimate at this stage.

MR BRACHER: Estimate.

MR SMIT: Approximately 15.

MR BRACHER: Were they all on the farm?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MR BRACHER: Were they all with you on the farm?

MR SMIT: No, not all of them.

MR BRACHER: At home?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Why didn't you shoot them in your war, isn't that your oath?

MR SMIT: In the first place it is rather a ridiculous question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, he hasn't testified that they stayed at home because they didn't want to fight the war.

MR BRACHER: What were they going to do at home?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat the question?

MR SMIT: To come back, I would just like to repeat that it is quite ridiculous for you to ask me that question. The way I feel about an oath and your feelings about an oath, would be two totally different sets of feelings.

MR BRACHER: ... ranks in the AWB, correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct. It was a paramilitary civil organisation, nothing to do with the government or the army. Yes, we maintained discipline.

MR BRACHER: What did you do disrupt the elections?

MR SMIT: I was part of a group, of the group who was at the game farm and those who were going to distribute the bombs.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of the trailer bomb group?

MR SMIT: I had knowledge thereof but I did not execute anything like that.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of a trailer bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of the Boksburg bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Do you consider yourself to be part of the Jan Smuts bomb group?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Why was it discussed at a meeting at which you were present?

MR SMIT: There were senior members present at that meeting.

MR BRACHER: What was your rank?

MR SMIT: Major.

MR BRACHER: How many people were under you?

MR SMIT: The whole Ystergarde of the Gauteng area.

MR BRACHER: How many people was that??

MR SMIT: It's very difficult to estimate at this stage.

MR BRACHER: Give me an estimate.

MR SMIT: Approximately 15.

MR BRACHER: 15?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: Were they all on the farm?

MR SMIT: Please repeat.

MR BRACHER: Were they all with you on the farm?

MR SMIT: No, not all of them.

MR BRACHER: Did some of them stay at home?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MR BRACHER: Why didn't you shoot them, if they don't want to participate in your war? Isn't that your oath?

MR SMIT: It in the first place it's rather a ridiculous question.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't testified that they stayed at home because they didn't want to fight a war.

MR BRACHER: What were they going to do at home?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat the ...[intervention]

MR SMIT: To come back, I'd just like to repeat that it's quite ridiculous for you to ask me that question, if he doesn't want to he doesn't want to.

MR BRACHER: That's not your oath is it?

MR SMIT: The way I feel about an oath and your feelings about an oath would be two totally different sets of feelings.

MR BRACHER: Now you had ranks in the AWB, correct?

MR SMIT: That's correct, it was para-military civil organisation, nothing to do with the government or the army.

MR BRACHER: Did you have discipline, army discipline?

MR SMIT: Yes, we maintained discipline.

MR BRACHER: How many chains of command?

MR SMIT: It depends in which division of the AWB or Ystergarde.

MR BRACHER: Ystergardes.

MR SMIT: From the Colonel, who was Leon van der Merwe at that stage, right through to Lieutenant.

MR BRACHER: Did you have a chain of command? I mean a junior officer wouldn't argue with a senior officer?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: Some of the witnesses spoke about "Christelike norme en standaarde", did you use those in your army?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MR BRACHER: Did you apply the Geneva Convention to your war?

MR SMIT: I don't know exactly what is contained within the Geneva Convention.

MR BRACHER: One of the things the Geneva Convention doesn't permit is the targeting of civilian targets only.

MR SMIT: Well that is a foreign idea. In my mind there were no innocent people.

MR BRACHER: Tell me, who trained in the use of explosives, who did the training in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: I can't remember the name at this stage. There was training in various areas by various people.

MR BRACHER: You don't know of anybody who did such training, that you can name today?

MR SMIT: Yes, Chris van der Heever is one of the persons who provided explosives training.

MR BRACHER: Is that the Brigadier you're talking about?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: And who - do you know of anybody who was trained in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: Among others, Chris van der Heever, yes.

MR BRACHER: No, who received training, anybody that you know?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Now I want to go back to these meetings where the targets were chose. Who gave instructions about what targets were chosen?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo gave those instructions via top structure and Eugene Terreblanche.

MR BRACHER: No, don't worry about what you heard about. Who did you hear giving instructions about the choosing of targets?

MR SMIT: Repeat the question please.

MR BRACHER: Who did you personally hear giving instructions about the choice of targets?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: Anybody else?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: And what exactly did he say the target should be?

MR SMIT: It's very difficult to say exactly what he said but he said soft targets, preferably taxi ranks and bus stops.

MR BRACHER: Who did he gave those instructions to? Who did you hear him give those instructions to?

MR SMIT: In these closed meetings mention was made of names which I mentioned earlier.

MR BRACHER: Is that the only time you heard him give the instructions?

MR SMIT: Just give me a chance. After that on the stoep the rest of the group gathered and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the bombs.

MR BRACHER: Who spoke at that meeting? Koper Myburgh?

MR SMIT: Koper Myburgh gave the demonstration of the bomb there, Nico Prinsloo gave the targets. He didn't say: "Go and blow Boksburg taxi rank, he said: "Go and blow up a place in Boksburg", whether it was a taxi rank, a station or a bus stop it didn't matter.

MR BRACHER: Did he mention Boksburg?

MR SMIT: No, I just take it as an example.

MR BRACHER: Did he not mention Boksburg?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR BRACHER: Did he mention specific ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have decided then that Boksburg, the taxi rank in Boksburg would have been a target?

MR SMIT: Please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have decided on that?

MR SMIT: Decided on what?

CHAIRPERSON: That the taxi rank in Boksburg should be a target.

MR SMIT: I assuming the generals and staff, those who would have attended the planning phase of this entire operation.

CHAIRPERSON: The is question is aimed at trying to determine who would have told those who planted the bombs to place a bomb at the taxi rank in Boksburg specifically.

MR SMIT: If that order had to be given it would have been given by Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: You didn't hear that instruction being given?

MR SMIT: Not at all, no.

MR BRACHER: To this day you don't know who was responsible for the Bree Street bomb in Johannesburg?

MR SMIT: No.

MR BRACHER: Just tell me exactly what you know about the Boksburg bomb and when you first heard.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like for Mr Bracher to indicate, the Boksburg bomb, to which incident exactly are you referring?

MR BRACHER: Sorry, it's Germiston bomb.

MR SMIT: I don't have all my facts together regarding which bomb was planted where and whether it was a trailer bomb or a pipe bomb, so if you could just give me a bit more clarity regarding that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MR SMIT: I would just like to ask, if it's a pipe bomb then it would have been on that evening that the pipe bombs left the farm.

MR BRACHER: The trailer bomb, what do you know about the trailer bomb? Where did that go off?

MR SMIT: Germiston.

MR BRACHER: Now when did you first hear about that?

MR SMIT: I heard about that when volunteers were asked to go and plant the bomb, and Jan de Wet and he said that he would use his own vehicle.

MR BRACHER: Now when did that happen?

MR SMIT: I'm not entirely sure.

MR BRACHER: Well you remember hearing him, where did you hear him, what meeting or what place?

MR SMIT: It was on the game farm. I'm not certain but it could have been on the evening that the pipe bombs left the farm. That is when the volunteers had been requested.

MR BRACHER: Is this in the public meeting on the stoep, the open meeting?

MR SMIT: The whole thing began with Barnard in the closed meeting and then led to the open meeting on the stoep.

MR BRACHER: So they would have asked for volunteers at the meeting on the stoep and Jan de Wet stepped forward, is that your evidence?

MR SMIT: That is correct, just as all the volunteers of the pipe bombs were asked there as well.

MR BRACHER: I'm talking about the trailer bomb, don't get the "pyp bomme" mixed up with this.

MR SMIT: That's correct, all the volunteers were asked that evening on that stoep.

MR BRACHER: But we know Mr Vlok wasn't there, he was involved in one of the bombs.

MR SMIT: I can't testify regarding who was there and who wasn't there at that stage. I know of certain people who were there ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: Who called for volunteers??

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: You say Nico Prinsloo went out and addressed the gathering and said: "I want volunteers for a trailer bomb", and Jan de Wet stepped forward?

MR SMIT: No, I never said that he wanted volunteers for a trailer bomb attack, he addressed the meeting on the stoep and asked for volunteers to throw bombs. They were looking for a vehicle which could draw a trailer for the trailer bomb and Jan de Wet was someone who had a vehicle that had a towbar on.

MR BRACHER: I don't understand your evidence. Was a trailer bomb mentioned in this gathering on the stoep? Did they ask for volunteers? Otherwise, where did it take place?

MR SMIT: All that I can say is that the volunteers, according to my knowledge, for all bomb attacks were requested on the stoep.

MR BRACHER: Yes, but you say: "So ver dit my kennis strek", did you hear it happening, did you see Jan de Wet volunteer, did you see Prinsloo ask him to, asking for trailer bomb volunteers or was not of that actually seen and heard by you?

MR SMIT: Okay, I was inside the hall and we were still busy with radio communications, the establishment thereof. I heard everything which happened. I just heard that de Wet said that he would be driving his own car.

MR BRACHER: Did you hear somebody asking him to volunteer for a trailer bomb and who was it and where was it?

MR SMIT: It was pertinently put to him, they said: "We're looking for a volunteer who will draw a trailer for us". Jan said that he would be prepared as long as he could use his own vehicle.

MR BRACHER: Is that your evidence? All you heard was a volunteer to tow a trailer and Jan de Wet said: "I will tow a trailer"? Is that your entire of this?

MR SMIT: That's correct because it was about the trailer, and previously we were talking about the "oubaas".

MR BRACHER: The Commission will decide that. Now go to the Jan Smuts bomb, tell me exactly what you heard, who said what to whom?

MR SMIT: No, I cannot testify regarding who said what.

MR BRACHER: Well you did already give evidence this morning, so tell me what your evidence is because the trailer has got into nothing, now what about the Jan Smuts bomb?

MR SMIT: It was just said by Nico Prinsloo that we should plant a bomb at Jan Smuts airport in order to elicit international reaction and also to stop international investment.

MR BRACHER: Prinsloo said that?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: When did he say that?

MR SMIT: He said that in the afternoon just before we went home, during the meeting when we were talking about the Jan Smuts incident.

MR BRACHER: The closed meeting, the open meeting or neither?

MR SMIT: It was during a "geslote vergadering" meeting at the shooting range just outside Rustenberg.

MR BRACHER: Now who was at that meeting?

MR SMIT: It was me, Abie Fourie, Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe and du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, before we proceed or adjourn, were you involved in any decision to plant a bomb, wherever?

MR SMIT: No, I did not tell anybody to plant a bomb because the way I understand it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood your evidence you were a trainer amongst the Ystergarde, what did you teach them?

MR SMIT: Well explosives was not part of my field, I dealt with self-defence and weapons. I also provided sharp-shooter training but in no way explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't an expert in the field of pipe bombs, so what were you doing there, why were you called in?

MR SMIT: In the same way that everybody else was called up I was called up as well.

CHAIRPERSON: But the way that I understand it, you had absolutely nothing to do with this?

MR SMIT: Well many did nothing in many people's eyes but I was part of the group.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say you did nothing, you know nothing?

MR SMIT: No, that is not what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence you can't say who made decisions, you can only say that Mr Prinsloo gave the orders from time to time. You cannot say how people were chosen to plan certain bombs, am I right so far?

MR SMIT: As I have testified, volunteers were requested.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know who asked?

MR SMIT: Nico Prinsloo did the asking but I don't know who volunteered.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that you were part of a meeting during which the strategy was planned?

MR SMIT: That's correct. And what I mean by "strategy" is what we were going to do, were we going to plant pipe bombs, trailer bombs, that kind of thing ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR SMIT: Under strategy yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But not where it would be planted and who would plant it?

MR SMIT: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not part of strategy?

MR SMIT: Well where it would be planted would be decided on a level much higher than mine.

CHAIRPERSON: So that meeting couldn't really have taken very long if the only decision to be made was whether or not you'd be planting pipe bombs or trailer bombs.

MR SMIT: No, not long at all, we were speaking of a couple of minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we take the adjournment now.

There's just one question.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Smit, just as a follow-up question to that, what was your contribution in that strategic planning forum, what contribution did you make to the discussion?

MR SMIT: As I have already testified, the strategy which I have mentioned had to do with equipment. That is what I mean by "strategy", the type of equipment that we would use.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

JOHANNES SMIT: (s.u.o.)

MR MALAN: Could you please just inform us a little more with regard to your answer, what exactly do you mean by strategy, what exact strategy was discussed during the meetings?

MR SMIT: All that I can say is that it was the strategy that was used. We had the minimum at our disposal. Our strategy would be, right, we have to plant a bomb, what type of bomb, how we're going to plant it.

MR MALAN: But if I understand your evidence correctly, when you had that so-called strategy meeting, the pipe were already there.

MR SMIT: No. The first meeting was held and during that meeting we decided what we would do and we would plan that. During that meeting we were told that bombs were already being manufactured at Koesterfontein. We left meeting, went into the second meeting and that is where Koper Myburgh and Cliff Barnard and Koekemoer were told: "There are the pipe bomb".

MR MALAN: Was the second meeting the open meeting?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALAN: So they walked in between the closed and the open meeting?

MR SMIT: Yes, basically.

MR MALAN: Were the pipe bombs not demonstrated during the first closed meeting?

MR SMIT: No, only during the second open meeting. That is all that I know of. In the closed meeting we spoke about the trailer bomb but a pipe was never in that room during that meeting. When we went to the second meeting the pipe bombs were retrieved from the car.

MR MALAN: When it was said that a trailer bomb was being manufactured at Koesterfontein, this was said to you during the closed meeting.

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: But then the strategy would have been determined a long time ago?

MR SMIT: What I understand under strategy is what took place during that meeting.

MR MALAN: But I still want to know what the strategy is, because you've been told that a bomb is being built in a trailer, it's Mr Terreblanche's trailer, we must go and tell the old boy, and you've been told that pipe bombs are being manufactured, these pipe bombs are supposed to be thrown but you're not informed where they should be thrown. This is while you are busy with radio communication and then you hear people being asked to volunteer for these activities, what kind of strategies are you talking about?

MR SMIT: I can only once again reiterate what I was involved with and that was: "What are we going to use and how are we going to use it".

MR MALAN: But you already knew that you had it, that it was being manufactured, the decision had been taken. You were told that a trailer bomb was being manufactured. It wasn't as if you sat there not knowing what you had, you were told what was being done, you were confronted with a strategy, according to your evidence. You were not part of the planning?

MR SMIT: Well then strategy planning is probably the incorrect term.

ADV BOSMAN: What do you understand under the word strategy?

MR SMIT: Planning.

MR MALAN: May I ask you two questions? The video which was displayed to us, where did you find this? Did you make this available to Mrs van der Walt? Did you have any knowledge of this video?

MR SMIT: No.

MR MALAN: And in your background, what is your career or your profession, were you in the police?

MR SMIT: No, I was national member of the army.

MR MALAN: What else have you done?

MR SMIT: I work for a private company.

MR MALAN: In which field?

MR SMIT: Finances.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, I was hoping to take tonight's plan home but I've changed my flight to half past twelve tomorrow.

MR BRACHER: Mr Smit, you told us that at the meeting where it was announced that there was a bomb being built at Koesterfontein, Mr Abie Fourie and Mr du Plessis were present, is that correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: That's Mr Johan du Plessis, one of the applicants in this matter?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MR BRACHER: I want to put it to you that neither of them said anything about that in their evidence. And if the Commission should believe you and find that they have not made a full disclosure of all relevant facts, they may not be entitled to amnesty. Do you nonetheless persist in saying that it was said at a meeting at which they were present?

MR SMIT: I cannot testify about somebody else's testimony.

MR BRACHER: Do you persist in saying it was said at a meeting at which they were present?

MR SMIT: As far as I can remember, yes.

MR BRACHER: Excuse me, "so ver soos u kan onthou"? Is there some doubt as to whether it was said at meeting at which they were present?

MR SMIT: I'm not saying that I doubt it, I'm saying that as far as I can remember they were there.

MR BRACHER: What does that mean, do you mean you remember it happening there?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SMIT: Like I said, as far as I can remember they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean: as far as you can remember? Either you remember if they were there or you do not remember they were there.

MR SMIT: I remember they were there.

MR BRACHER: And the meeting at which a bomb in Jan Smuts was discussed, Mr Abie Fourie was there as well you said?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: And Mr du Plessis?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: And if Mr Prinsloo carried out his intention, Mr Terreblanche must have known there were bombs being built, trailer bombs being built as well?

MR SMIT: That's correct, Mr Terreblanche would have known about all of these bombs.

MR BRACHER: How do you know that?

MR SMIT: Because this was direct instructions, as we received it directly from him and the generals in staff.

MR BRACHER: You got it direct from Mr Prinsloo, you didn't get direct from Mr Terreblanche.

MR SMIT: Mr Prinsloo was a member of the generals in staff, the generals in staff's instructions and execution of it is approved by Mr Terreblanche directly.

MR BRACHER: Well I'll leave it at that, you don't know that. I just want to ask you about the Volkstaat, have you got in front of you these volumes? There's a bound volume called: "Index, Volume 1" and if you have, please turn to page 95. We're looking at the evidence of Mr Vlok, Johannes Abraham Vlok. Similar evidence was given by the other applicants. Can you just read aloud paragraph 21 please?

MR SMIT

"The instruction was given that we must move to the Western Transvaal where the future Volkstaat would be established and that all members must leave their work and houses to go to the Western Transvaal in order to protect the Volkstaat. If they do not follow the demands of the Afrikaner Boerevolk, the election will not take place"

MR BRACHER: And just turn over the page and read the introductory part of, the first sentence of 24.

MR SMIT

"We as members of the AWB believed that the Western Transvaal will become the future Volkstaat and that we must protect and get hold of this at all costs. At that stage the AWB already received the freedom of 21 Western Transvaal towns"

MR BRACHER: You see, the evidence was here that the Volkstaat was going to be in the Western Transvaal, and when I listened to that video I didn't hear anyone speak about: "die hele land", did you hear those words being used?

MR SMIT: The whole country was not mentioned no, but what does mean but that Mandela would come and beg for a centimetre of land.

MR BRACHER: Can you explain why some of the applicants would sell property in Pretoria if that was going to be part of the Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: The beginning of the Volkstaat would have been the Western Transvaal, so somewhere we needed a beginning. That is all that I can testify.

MR BRACHER: But were your instructions not to "bekom en beskerm" the Western Transvaal?

MR SMIT: At the beginning, yes.

MR BRACHER: I also didn't hear on the video anything about "ontwrigting van die verkiesing". That wasn't said in any of the extracts, was it?

MR SMIT: I cannot comment on that.

MR BRACHER: Well you listened to it when I listened to it, did you hear anybody say that the instructions given at that meeting were to "ontwrig die verkiesing"?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, to be quite fair, there were insinuations at least that the forthcoming elections were not acceptable.

MR BRACHER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now while there may not have been as forthright an allegation that there must be an attack on the elections, one can read in the circumstances, an attack, when they say they didn't find it acceptable.

MR BRACHER: I won't pursue it Mr Chairman.

You said that at these meetings you were in charge of "toerusting", what did you actually do, what did you supply or obtain?

MR SMIT: Which meetings are you talking about?

MR BRACHER: Meetings at which bombs were discussed.

MR SMIT: That would be at the game farm.

MR BRACHER: Excuse me?

MR SMIT: Is that now on the game farm?

MR BRACHER: Ja.

MR SMIT: I never got hold of any equipment, it was already obtained.

MR BRACHER: The other evidence that we had here was that there was an operational radio on the farm which was in touch with the head office of the AWB, which would not make it necessary for Mr Prinsloo to drive backwards and forwards.

MR SMIT: As I also testified, at the meeting on the verandah of the game farm, the same distance as we are from each other, I was still busy struggling to make connection with the head office and we could not do that.

MR BRACHER: The other evidence is wrong?

MR SMIT: What evidence?

MR BRACHER: There was evidence in this hearing that there was radio communication between the farm and head office.

MR SMIT: No, we couldn't make connection or communicate with head office, that is why it was only Nico Prinsloo who drove to and fro.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

MR SMIT: Is that now ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: No, sorry, in this period when you were gathering in the Western Transvaal.

MR SMIT: I arrived at head office when we got there and I wasn't there again.

MR BRACHER: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.

Sir, you say that the purpose to get back to the - the purpose was to disrupt the elections and you believed that these bombings would further that aim, would disrupt the elections?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Now on the tape we hear Mr Terreblanche saying that: "Next month this time we will have a new government", did you hear that on the video tape?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Would you agree with me that it seems as though Mr Terreblanche himself was of the view that within a month from the 2nd of April there would be a new government?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is not put in the context properly. It was very clear that Terreblanche said that there are only two choices. I did make a note of it. He said that there are only two choices, either there will be a new government with the flag of the 666 or we will be a Volkstaat. It was a choice between these two.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not believe that that's what the attorney asked, she's not talking about options.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then I think, with respect, it must be put clearer because I do not follow to what she is referring.

CHAIRPERSON: But your client or witness said that he does have knowledge of it.

MR SMIT: I do carry knowledge of what was said on the video but I agree with my legal representative that there were two options. It was not said that within a month we will have a new government. We had two options, either a Volkstaat or under a new government.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, I don't know if I have it correct but as I remember it he said: "If we do not do certain things we will have a new government next month". Is that not right?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And my opinion he talked about warfare.

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are talking about?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question then please.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, I had my note as Mr Terreblanche saying: "Next month we will have a new government", I didn't have the note on options. I was asking ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MS CAMBANIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: He was suggesting certain processes. As I understood it, in the context of making war. And he said if those things did not occur then by next month they would have had a new government.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair, I'll leave ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Ms Cambanis, if it would help you, my note says, and I'm reading the Afrikaans

"Early next month we will have a "eenheid" state or a Volkstaat in South Africa and I said that I will never accept an ANC government and I will not change on this"

I think that was the context.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair, I'll leave it at that then.

Sir, then when you were being led you again referred to the evidence that General Constand Viljoen would have, the impression was that General Constand Viljoen supported this idea of the military option.

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Just for your comment Sir, Mr Viljoen's submission to the TRC - and I take this Mr Chair, from a submission dated the 19th of August 1996 at pages 25 and 26, where Mr Viljoen also talks or General Viljoen talks that

"We realised that the mood amongst some of our supporting groups was volatile and that one action is that it could very well become uncontrollable. The demonstration at Kempton Park and the operation at Mmbatha showed that"

And then it goes on to say:

"We were at the cross-roads. In the end we saw little sense in more violence and we wanted reconciliation and that is when the agreement came to the constitutional principle of the Volkstaat and this all this happens in March, Sir, 1994, a month before the bombings took place"

Do you accept that?

MR SMIT: I cannot comment on that.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you have knowledge of that in March 1994?

MR SMIT: According to my knowledge in March 1994 he would have supported us fully.

MS CAMBANIS: Was he not then participating in the elections Sir, General Viljoen?

MR SMIT: Not as far as I know.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Smit, did you not see in the streets his posters and placards?

MR SMIT: On the lampposts?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

MR SMIT: No, I never saw his posters or placards.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, I won't debate it to you but any South African who was driving through any town or village at that time would have known that General Viljoen was participating but you are the exception to that, is that - I put that to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, he can't be the only exception, there were other applicants who claimed the same.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.

You together with certain applicants did not see that?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, when we were watching the video material we heard a preacher or a priest giving what appeared to be a sermon, you heard that?

MR SMIT: Correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And what was the purport ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The preacher called it a sermon.

MS CAMBANIS: Was the purport of that, would you agree, that this Volkstaat is a mission from God, God's mission? God had spoken and said the Volkstaat should come, is that fair?

MR SMIT: No.

MS CAMBANIS: What would you say, what was the purport?

MR SMIT: The content of that sermon was to protect and to hold onto that which is already ours, that was the country.

CHAIRPERSON: To who did it belong?

MR SMIT: The people who live here.

CHAIRPERSON: Everybody?

MR SMIT: If you look at the history, the white people built this country the way it is today.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I didn't ask this, I asked to whom the country belonged at that stage.

MR SMIT: To the inhabitants of this country, the National Party Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Black people?

MR SMIT: Not according to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave this country to the Nationalists?

MR SMIT: They worked for it. The National Party was in power for a number of years.

ADV BOSMAN: According to you, to whom does the land belong now?

MR SMIT: The ANC Government.

MR MALAN: Mr Smit, but your evidence was that the National Party was part of the enemy, and all the applicants' evidence was the same.

MR SMIT: That is correct because they gave the land away ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Yes, they gave the land away, but they kept the land while the AWB and the National Party, on your evidence, did not sit on the same side. The National Party did not represent the Afrikaner, as the AWB thought.

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Now why then, if it was the National Party's country, how did the AWB then God's command keep or hold onto the country?

MR SMIT: Let me put it differently. The country belonged to the whites.

MR MALAN: So if it was white communists it would have been alright?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, in summary, God's mission that it should go to white, it belonged to white Christians who spoke Afrikaans, that is who the land belongs to?

MR SMIT: I cannot testify about God's mission.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you think you can execute the word of God?

MR SMIT: In what circumstances?

CHAIRPERSON: Like that minister said.

MR SMIT: That minister pertinently pointed out from the bible that we have to fight what is ours and we have to hold onto it.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you then have executed this?

MR SMIT: By war, by disrupting the elections in order for it not to take place and to ensure that the land would stay in the hands of the whites.

CHAIRPERSON: And who would have done that, in the name of God?

MR SMIT: The right-wing.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that as the advocate or attorney described, as white Christian people who spoke Afrikaans?

MR SMIT: No, I'd like to move away from people who spoke Afrikaans, the AWB didn't only have Afrikaans speaking people but white Christian people.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.

Sir, but part of the constitution of the AWB talks about white Christianity, white racial purity being one of the objectives of the AWB, is that correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And part of the motivation is based on your religious belief, isn't it?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Specifically it says, 1.3 of your constitution

"The national Christian living standards flowing from the Protestant religion guide the development of people's lives in all aspects of their lives"

Is that correct?

MR SMIT: Could you just repeat it please?

MS CAMBANIS

"The national Christian living standards flowing from the Protestant religion guide the development of people's lives in all aspects of their lives"

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: It goes on to talk about

"The vow of "Blood River," confirmed at Paardekraal, November 1986"

which is what you believe, is that not correct?

MR SMIT: Could you please repeat that again?

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, it talks about

"The vow of "Blood River", confirmed at Paardekraal on 29 November 1986, consecrates the Volk's bond with God and he is honoured in eternal gratitude for his merciful deliverance"

MR SMIT: I'm sorry, the interpreter is interpreting extremely bad. I'm being honest. I cannot follow what you are saying.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, unfortunately I only have a copy in English, can I perhaps pass this on to you?

MR SMIT: No, it's okay, speak English, it's fine.

MS CAMBANIS

"The vow of "Blood River", confirmed at Paardekraal on 29 November 1986, consecrates the Volk's bond with God and he is honoured in eternal gratitude for his merciful deliverance"

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And is it not correct that a large part of the motivation here is based on religious sentiment of the AWB?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And just in summary, that pertains only, as the Chairperson has pointed out, not to language but to white Afrikaners? It is between God and white Afrikaners only.

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, Mr Koekemoer who gave evidence at your trial, did you know him before? I know he was at the meeting with you, but did you know him before those meetings?

MR SMIT: I met him the evening when we arrived at Jan de Wet's farm.

MS CAMBANIS: And what did you know about his background, if anything?

MR SMIT: All that I knew is what I heard at the game farm, that he had something to do with explosives at some or other mine.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you perhaps know whether he trained anyone in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: No.

MS CAMBANIS: When did you first find out that he was a police informer?

MR SMIT: In the hearing.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout - were you present throughout your trial, firstly?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout the trial?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Can I just have one moment please? Now Sir, according to your evidence, a large part of the police force was supportive of the AWB's constitution or what actually is your evidence, a large of the police were supporters of what?

MR SMIT: They were supporters of the right-wing.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SMIT: I wouldn't say only the AWB, when I speak about the right-wing I mean the AWB and the Volksfront.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you belong only to the AWB?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how would you know that there were policemen who were supporters of other right-wing organisations?

MR SMIT: It was mentioned during meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MR SMIT: By Eugene Terreblanche amongst others.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe everything that Mr Terreblanche said?

MR SMIT: At that stage yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And now?

MR SMIT: No.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you know whether any of the members present at Koesterfontein or at the game farm were currently at that time members of the police force, South African Police at that time?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Who were they?

MR SMIT: There was a set of twin brothers by the name of Coetzee. I'm not sure if they were twins, I know that they were involved with the permanent forces.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, that means they were active members of the South African Police at that time. And what was their role in the planning, the execution of these bombings?

MR SMIT: They didn't have any definitive role, they were there as the other members were there.

MS CAMBANIS: And as the other members, they knew about the planning of these bombs?

MR SMIT: That's correct, after the meeting on the stoep of the game farm.

MS CAMBANIS: Now Sir, did you know anything about any contact between any of these groupings and sections of the police at the time, April '94?

MR SMIT: Which contact do you mean?

MS CAMBANIS: Well, would the Coetzee "tweeling", would they have been there in their, in what capacity would they have been there at the farm? As police people?

MR SMIT: No, both of them were trained by me in the Ystergarde.

MS CAMBANIS: Now Sir, the Bree Street bomb for example, was just a couple of days before the election. At that time there was very tight police security in and around the main centres, do you agree with that? Do you recall that?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Is there any reason why the plans went ahead with no fear of detection, roadblocks or so on by the police, that you can tell this Committee? If you know. If you don't know it's ...

MR SMIT: We knew about the risk but the work had to be done.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Smit, why did Nico Prinsloo want the 4 x 4's?

MR SMIT: Firstly, when we were on the game farm there were many dirt roads, it was a very difficult terrain to move over in normal vehicles and that is why we needed the 4 x 4 vehicles.

MR LANDMAN: No that's in the "eerste plek", were there any other reasons?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: Was there any intention of building bombs in these 4 x 4 vehicles?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: How far was the game farm the AWB headquarters, in kilometres?

MR SMIT: I'm not certain how far it was, approximately 50 to 80 kilometres.

MR LANDMAN: And how long does it take to drive there, to Ventersdorp from the game farm?

MR SMIT: 45 minutes.

MR LANDMAN: And how many times did Mr Prinsloo, that Sunday, the Sunday that you were on the game farm, how often did he make that trip?

MR SMIT: I can't answer that.

MR LANDMAN: More than once?

MR SMIT: I doubt it.

MR LANDMAN: Do you think it was only once?

MR SMIT: It could be so.

MR LANDMAN: When he came back from that trip did he tell you where he had been?

MR SMIT: Not to me personally.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell you as a group?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did anybody ask him where he had been?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell you what his instructions were from the AWB headquarters?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: Did he go into town alone?

MR SMIT: There was one occasion, I can't remember on which day, that he and General van der Merwe went together.

MR LANDMAN: Was that on the Sunday?

MR SMIT: I can't remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did Nico Prinsloo ever admit that he knew anything about the Bree Street bomb?

MR SMIT: Not to me.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chair, there's just one or two matters.

Mr Smit, as I understand you were part of the leadership on the game farm, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, I was in control of the guards.

MR KRIEL: And when Prinsloo arrived there and the meeting was held behind closed doors, you were part of that meeting?

MR SMIT: That's the correct.

MR KRIEL: And that was the first time that you heard that you were to plant bombs or set bombs off?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: So as part of leadership, you heard for the first time on Sunday evening the 24th?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: At that stage did Nico Prinsloo tell you anything about the Bree Street bomb which had taken place earlier that day?

MR SMIT: No.

MR KRIEL: Would you agree with me that Mr Terreblanche, on the video which we watched, clearly indicated what the AWB had done in the past, that is what they had done, that's how many people, they'd attacked this, they'd done that, but during the meeting, the closed meeting of Sunday evening absolutely no mention was made of the Bree Street bombing?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR KRIEL: However you were there?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: You said that you resided in Vereeniging, Vanderbijlpark?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: That was part of the old area?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: How long did you live there?

MR SMIT: Four years.

MR KRIEL: And before that?

MR SMIT: Pretoria.

MR KRIEL: So therefore you knew the PWV area?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

MR KRIEL: You knew where Commissioner Street was in Johannesburg?

MR SMIT: No. I know about the street but I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly where it is.

MR KRIEL: Commissioner Street.

MR KRIEL: Therefore you wouldn't know where Bree Street is?

MR SMIT: I know about the street but I don't know how to get there.

MR KRIEL: Where is Bree Street?

MR SMIT: It's behind the Supreme Court.

MR KRIEL: And you knew that at the time of those meetings?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR KRIEL: Very well. Koesterfontein, did you know on that Sunday evening who was based at Koesterfontein?

MR SMIT: What do you mean by that?

MR KRIEL: I mean the persons who were at Koesterfontein on Sunday evening.

MR SMIT: Well I knew that Koper Myburgh lived there, it was his farm. I knew that Cliff Barnard was with him.

MR KRIEL: And who else?

MR SMIT: And the so-called Koekemoer.

MR KRIEL: Only those three?

MR SMIT: That I knew of.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Chairperson, just one or two aspects.

Mr Smit, do you know Fred Rundle?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Apparently during the criminal proceedings he testified in order to mitigate his sentence, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Not when I was present.

ADV PRIOR: Didn't take any further interest after your conviction?

MR SMIT: Sir, I also have a job to see to.

MR BRACHER: Just answer the question.

MR SMIT: No, I wasn't involved in it any further.

ADV PRIOR: According to a newspaper report of 2nd April 1996, on page 12 of Annexure A, for these proceedings, Mr Rundle was called as a witness and according to the report under oath he said that the AWB never gave instructions to members to plant bombs in order to disrupt the elections.

MR SMIT: As far as I know I cannot testify according to his evidence.

ADV PRIOR: Is that surprising to you?

MR SMIT: Definitely.

ADV PRIOR: That on he on behalf of the applicants, during the criminal proceedings, that he testified this?

MR SMIT: Well it is surprising to me now. I think that he would have incriminated himself in a number of matters if he had admitted.

ADV PRIOR: Even before the trial on April 26, 1994 in Business Day, on behalf of the AWB, Rundle also denied that the bomb explosions could be ascribed to the AWB.

MR SMIT: I can't give evidence regarding that.

ADV PRIOR: Is it your evidence that Mr Prinsloo had direct instructions for the AWB to plant these bombs?

MR SMIT: From Mr Eugene Terreblanche and the fellow generals in staff.

ADV PRIOR: As I understand the issue Rundle would have liaised with Terreblanche, he couldn't simply make utterances. He would have been briefed or told what to announce to the world. He couldn't personally make any kind of announcement, he would be speaking on behalf of the AWB, is that not so?

MR SMIT: That's correct, but I could also ask other people to lie on my behalf.

ADV PRIOR: One final aspect. The preparations for the manufacturing of the bombs and the transportation of the bombs, is it your evidence that for the first time, regarding you, you came to hear of it, on the game farm?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you were the person who would have asked: "How are we going to build the bomb and what is our equipment?"

MR SMIT: No, I didn't ask that, I was present when we discussed it.

ADV PRIOR: For the first time?

MR SMIT: For the first time.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know that they were going to use Mr Terreblanche's trailer?

MR SMIT: No, I heard about that for the first time in the meeting.

ADV PRIOR: And a grass roller which was on the farm purely by coincidence?

MR SMIT: I have no knowledge of a grass roller.

ADV PRIOR: What contribution did the Natalers have in the whole affair?

MR SMIT: They were members of the rest of the group.

ADV PRIOR: Why were the proceedings at Koesterfontein so secretive, or kept secret from the other people on the game farm?

MR SMIT: Well my honest opinion is that any military action which was to follow should be kept secret until a certain stage.

ADV PRIOR: And the statements made by the AWB which appear on page 13 of Annexure A, that according to Mr Rundle once again, this was on the 22nd of April 1994, and I quote

"We are not planning to act aggressively, however if our people are attacked, the attackers will get to do with the entire power of the AWB. Furthermore, no we are not going to disrupt the elections. What should we do to achieve this, physically prevent people from reaching the ballot boxes? We're not going to do that because we are not kaffirs"

MR SMIT: I cannot testify regarding his evidence.

ADV PRIOR: Is it not true that this small group at Koesterfontein had their own agenda?

MR SMIT: That's not true, that had absolutely nothing to do with the agenda of the AWB, not at all.

ADV PRIOR: It would appear as such.

MR SMIT: But that's your opinion.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Abie Fourie said that regarding him it was more patrolling and the protection of farms and farmers and so forth.

MR SMIT: That was the initial call-up instruction to get people there.

ADV PRIOR: When did it change?

MR SMIT: On the game farm during the closed meeting.

ADV PRIOR: On the Sunday evening?

MR SMIT: Well I talk - probably the Sunday evening, when it was said that we would disrupt the elections.

ADV PRIOR: And according to you Mr Prinsloo has to assume the entire responsibility for that decision?

MR SMIT: He gave the direct order.

ADV PRIOR: Without that you would have continued with the ordinary patrolling?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Smit, were you present here during the previous session of this hearing?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell at which stage you went home from the game farm?

MR SMIT: The afternoon of the 26th of April 1994.

ADV BOSMAN: And when were you arrested?

MR SMIT: In Pretoria. I went to my parent's house, not to my own house.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you go there?

MR SMIT: I didn't have any further interests there.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't you think that the war should continue?

MR SMIT: I felt that it would be continued on the morning of the 27th of April.

ADV BOSMAN: And where did you think you would be on that morning?

MR SMIT: We would go back to the shooting range outside Rustenberg.

MS GCABASHE: Can I just get this right, you were arrested in Pretoria, where were you arrested?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS GCABASHE: One other question. As part of the strategic planning group or that group of leaders, how did you plan to co-ordinate your effort with the efforts of the people at Koesterfontein for instance, and the other "punte" that you knew to be operational points? You know, where others had gathered to do what you were supposed to be doing. How were you going to co-ordinate your activities?

MR SMIT: That would have been co-ordinated by means of radio communication.

MS GCABASHE: But your radio didn't work, you have told us that.

MR SMIT: Yes, that's what I just said.

MS GCABASHE: So how would you know that one of the other groups had not targeted, for instance Johannesburg Airport?

MR SMIT: Personally I wouldn't have known that.

MS GCABASHE: But you were part of the general planning around the bombing? I just use that as one example. I'm just visualising this, your group could be arriving to bomb Bree Street, any particular place, Germiston, another group could be arriving to do exactly the same thing, you have no radio contact with head office, how would you avoid chaos in your own ranks?

MR SMIT: As far as I know our order was to do with the Rand, the North Western East Rand, so the other groups and the other members and the other leaders had their own orders.

MS GCABASHE: And just to get this absolutely right, at no stage did Terreblanche come and visit you, either at Koesterfontein, at the game farm or at the shooting range, is that correct?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS GCABASHE: And would I be correct to say again that you certainly, the last time you saw Mr Terreblanche where he was giving you instructions as to where you were from as a people and where you were going to as a people, was on the 2nd of April at that gathering at Trim Park?

MR SMIT: No.

MS GCABASHE: Just help right, so when did you see him, between the 2nd of April and the 24th of April, when did you see him and what was he saying to you in particular?

MR SMIT: He didn't say anything specifically to me, but I did see him after we had moved up to Ventersdorp when we were protecting headquarters and staying on Cliff Barnard's farm. So therefore I did see him but I didn't speak to him.

MS GCABASHE: Now again just explain that to me because, just give me a date, just to help me understand and picture this, a date and what he would have been saying to the people whom you may have been with.

MR SMIT: Let me give you a background. Approximately, I'm not sure about the dates, but let's say the 19th of April we were called up, we went to Ventersdorp and we then went to Cliff Barnard's farm and our orders were to protect the AWB headquarters. We didn't speak to anybody else in an open meeting where there were other people. Some of us may have spoken to members while we were guarding the AWB headquarters, but personally I can't offer you any evidence.

MS GCABASHE: So as far as you are concerned, the changed of policy or the change of function, to that of disrupting the elections, came from Nico Prinsloo on the Sunday evening, before that all you were told to do was guard?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smit, did you believe the church minister?

MR SMIT: I think all of us believed at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is: "all of us"?

MR SMIT: Any person who listened to a sermon in a church service or during a meeting believed what the minister had said.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, is this the first time today that you have come to speak the truth?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any attempt to get to those people who had lost their husbands or their wives or their children as a result of what happened?

MR SMIT: That is why I am here today.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is whether you made the attempt.

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

MR SMIT: When I went to the legal representatives out of my own free will.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go and speak to them?

MR SMIT: With any of the applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: No, with those who were injured.

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were to have such an opportunity would you make use of that?

MR SMIT: I believe so.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though these people may be black people?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude today towards the Boere Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: It was never realised and it will never be realised.

CHAIRPERSON: Well was that not one of the hopes that you cherished?

MR SMIT: It was.

CHAIRPERSON: And now?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen if they came tomorrow and said: "Let's take up arms again and fight the war"?

MR SMIT: There would be no way in which I would.

CHAIRPERSON: And what if that minister gave another sermon in church?

MR SMIT: I wouldn't believe in it.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is your attitude towards black people today?

MR SMIT: We all live together in the same country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, but what is your attitude?

MR SMIT: We are all citizens of the country, you do your bit and I'll do mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't we all live together?

MR SMIT: Well we all live together in the same country.

CHAIRPERSON: No, as a nation?

MR SMIT: We are not the same nation.

CHAIRPERSON: Aren't we the South African nation?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So then why can't we all live together as a nation?

MR SMIT: Because we are not a nation, we are all inhabitants of one country.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you see that there might be an opportunity for all of us to live together as one?

MR SMIT: As I've said, we will never be able to be one nation but we can all live together in one country.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you even want to try to live together as one nation?

MR SMIT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Even some of the applicants said that they would be prepared to try to live together as one nation.

MR SMIT: The only way to have one nation is to rid the nation of hybrids.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm not going to debate the scientific aspect behind that. You see, we are all here in order to determine the truth behind certain problems and the notion, or to achieve the notion of one nation and that is why I will once again ask you, and I'm not speaking of science here, are you not prepared to at least make an attempt to contribute to the achievement of one nation in the country.

MR SMIT: Well we have been under the government of this one nation for four years.

MR MALAN: Might I just follow up on this point please. According to my historical background, terms might be used differently and incorrectly. As I understand you, do you still see the Afrikaner as a volk?

MR SMIT: Yes, as you have the Zulu nation or the Xhosa nation.

MR MALAN: As a homogenous ethnic volk.

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: What do understand under nation?

MR SMIT: One nation.

MR MALAN: You understand it similarly?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Well then if I were to say to you, let us assume that the definition of one nation denotes all those living within the same country's borders, under the same lay, in the same political arena, all of those who commit themselves to the same constitution and the same legislative rules, if that indicates a nation, how would you feel about that?

MR SMIT: I would agree with it.

MR MALAN: Therefore, what is your opinion about co-habitation as a nation, according to this definition, under one constitution in one country, and what would your role and connection for the future be, given there are other people who are all part of this nation but not of the volk?

MR SMIT: Well as I've said, for the last four years I'm doing my bit for this so-called nation, but - I misunderstood it from the beginning then.

MR MALAN: Do you everybody in South Africa at the moment as South Africans?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Who are here now and who will be here in future?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Under the same constitution?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: In the same political process?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: How do you feel about it?

MR SMIT: It's right.

MR MALAN: Do you feel it's right?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you feel positive about it?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Do you see any kind of future underneath this approach?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALAN: And is your commitment 100%? In other words, you will not prepare to break down or disrupt and say: "I don't want this person to be part of this country, I don't want this person to have his political say", or "that person of a certain colour or race or culture"?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Well then will you please return and answer the Chairperson's question within that context, and say how you feel about the future of this country and everybody living together in this country.

MR SMIT: It could work.

MR MALAN: Do you think it will work?

MR SMIT: I don't think it's up to me to decide.

MR MALAN: But you will do your best to be part of it?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then, that you are prepared to live with the concept that there are different nations within the country?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about a non-racial country, where there are no nations but only one South African nation. Are you prepared to participate in that?

MR SMIT: Chairperson, I would just like to make one point very clear. Do you mean that if I marry a black woman, our children after that will be part of one nation? Based upon that my answer is no.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's your own personal preference, I'm not talking about marriage.

MR SMIT: Then I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking of human rights. I'm talking about people accepting, whether they be black, white or whatever.

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct, we'll accept one another if every nation can have its own culture and its own language within the country.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED