Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. This is the continuation of the Katlehong Massacre Hearing. Mr Mapoma, I understand that you have a matter to raise this morning.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I've got two matters to raise, one about applicant Michael Armoed. The Boksburg police have undertaken that they are going to go and fetch him from Sun City prison. They are on their way and we are expecting them to bring him to the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand now that they will be responsible for bringing the applicant to and from the proceedings?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. They have undertaken to do that but they said we have to sign a requisition warrant for him to be taken from Sun City to be kept in Boksburg until the hearing ends, from today onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, I suppose you'll be able to attend to that?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is anything that we can do to expedite the process, let us know.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So that disposes of that matter, what is the other matter?

MR MOTLOKWA: The other matter Chairperson, is about another applicant, applicant number 7, Julian ...[indistinct]. Mr Madasa has advised me yesterday that he is not acting for him, he's acting for the 14 applicants except for him. Now, the Investigative Officer for the TRC advised that Julian Ntlebe's(?) application has nothing to do with the Katlehong Massacre, he was not part of it and he does not apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was it included in this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: The reason for it to be included here is that, in his application he did not specify exactly what incident he is applying for amnesty for except that he said he's applying for amnesty for killing in December 1993 in Katlehong so it was assumed that he was part of the SDU's. He also says he was an SDU member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so do the other applicants and they make reference to 1993. Mr Madasa, do you confirm that you don't appear for applicant number 7, that is Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MADASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought yesterday you placed yourself on record as appearing for all the applicants?

MR MADASA: I think I said 14 applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you notify Mr Mapoma of that fact?

MR MADASA: As he says now, he has been aware that's he's not part of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was this matter not brought to the attention of the Commission yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, this matter was going to be dealt with - we thought his application is going to be dealt with separately to the Katlehong Massacre and in fact I've discussed the matter with Advocate Mpshe. He has agreed that this matter is supposed to be struck off the role for the Katlehong Massacre and his application be dealt with separately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Mr Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MAPOMA: I'm told he is not here Chairperson, he has not pitched up for the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: He was not here even yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Really? Well Mr Mapoma, there's something fundamentally wrong with the process, we cannot continue like this. Very well, the application in respect applicant number 7, Julian Essau Ntlebe is accordingly struck off from the role.

Now whilst we are on this matter, it has occurred to me, going through the applications by the other applicants, that they also refer to 1993 in the same vague fashion as Ntlebe does in his application.

I think some of them refer to an incident in which a Mr Mavuso was killed. Now, is that matter, the killing of Mavuso related to the incident that we are dealing with today? Mr Madasa, what are your instructions in regard to the remaining applicants now? Mr Madasa, are these applicants applying for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre, all of them?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair. If you refer to the list of the deceased, page 2 of the bundle, the applicants applications relate to the deceased listed there, except number 1. So I confirm that the rest, except for number 1, the applicants claimed some responsibility, directly or indirectly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. For the death of the deceased persons mentioned on page 2.

MR MADASA: Yes, except for the first deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Except Theodora Bulelwa Ziwane?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. ...[no sound] There is a reference to Mavuso. If you go to page, I think if you go to page 14 of the papers, paragraph 9.C.II, - I, I think it, where Michael Langa Nkomo gives the name of the victim as Mavuso and others. Who were the another and others I don't know. Who is this Mavuso? Go to page 14 of the bundle of the document.

MR MADASA: Yes, I see Mr Chair. I assume that Mavuso is Mavuso who is number 9 on the list but I can quickly confirm with one of the applicants now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that is Peter Mavuso Modishwa?

MR MADASA: Yes. Mr Chairman, may I confirm this first with one of the applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: And then another one refers to Bolozo(?).

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, the applicants confirm that this Mavuso some of them refer to is the same person who is number 9 on the list of deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Bolozo? Okay Bolozo is mentioned by ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: By Armoed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps when he - did you take instructions on their application forms? What are your instructions in this regard?

MR MADASA: I confess Mr Chair, I didn't dealt with Armoed, the question of Bolozo.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if you could find some time at some point and just go through the applications including the victims referred to by the applicants and just make sure that they relate or they refer to the same persons who are described as being the deceased in the Katlehong Massacre so that there is no confusion about that. ...[no sound]

Is there anything else Mr Mapoma, that you want to place on record?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, that is all. I also Chairperson, for the sake of the record, would like to mention that unfortunately these disparities have been caused by not having had an opportunity to hold a pre-hearing conference with my learned fried. That is a regret Mr Chairperson, I must apologise for that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if we adjourn at four today, why can't you hold a conference of some sort and see what the issues are and see the extent to which you could define the issues? Why can't you do that this afternoon at four and first thing tomorrow morning if necessary?

MR MAPOMA: We agree to do that Chairperson, at 4 o'clock with my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be very helpful indeed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you go to 105, 106 I think it is, yes, 105/106, applicant number 15 Malcolmess Ngaam refers to Bulungwe or Bulangwe. Could you also take instructions on who that person is? I think his name appears at page 105/106 and he is referred to by applicant number 15.

MR MADASA: Yes, that person is Blanko who was referred by the applicant who is still giving evidence. It's Blanko who was their member, whose shack was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, very well. So Blanko and Bulungwe is on and the same person, very well.

Having taken care of the housekeeping problems, where is Mr Motlokwa? Mr Motlokwa?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the evidence in chief, is that right?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, but with your permission may I ask just one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: (con)

Mr Motlokwa, as a result of these killings, did you personally benefit anything therefrom?

MR MOTLOKWA: I never benefitted anything Sir.

MR MADASA: Thank you, that's all Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Motlokwa, during December 1993 you were a member of the African National Congress, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: I joined the African National Congress in 1985 until now.

MR MAPOMA: And when you had problems with the ANC Youth League you must have realised that to be a political problem, is that not so?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: A political problem which needed a political solution, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, did you take up the matter with the ANC at political level, the matter of your problems with the ANC Youth League as youth wing of your political organisation, the ANC?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we wrote a letter to the civic trying to solve the problems that existed between ourselves and the Youth League.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that you used to attend the meetings of the ANC as a political organisation, as member of the political organisation, the ANC, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, there were no meetings, we were busy at all time because Katlehong was fighting.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. But now, did you as a member of the ANC take the matter up with the ANC, the mother body of the ANC Youth League and you being a member of the ANC as an organisation?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I have said that we took a step. We wrote a letter to the civic organisation asking to meet with them to get a solution to the problem we had with the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mapoma wishes to establish from you is that, did you take the matter up with the ANC structures? One, the ANC Youth League were members of the ANC, you were also a member of the ANC but what you did you wrote a letter to the civic, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you take the matter up with the African National Congress?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR MOTLOKWA: The central SDU met with the ANC Katlehong branch, they were discussing the issue of Moleleki. Now the delegation was sent by the Shell House by the name of Mr Africa, to come and investigate this matter.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but I take it that that happened after the incident of the killing of the deceased persons. I'm asking about your relationship with the ANC before the incident. When you had problems with the ANC Youth League before the incident itself happened, did you ever raise the matter with the ANC as an organisation of which you were a member?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I told you already that the civic solved the problems because within the SDU, the SDU had members from different political organisations, PAC and ANC. Now the civic managed to solve the problems we had.

MR MAPOMA: Otherwise you did not raise the matter with the ANC, you yourself?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not discuss this with the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, the membership in the SDU was open to all political organisations but the IFP, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. IFP, National Party, Democratic Party were not included.

CHAIRPERSON: And the civic comprised of the various political parties but the Democratic Party, the Nationalist Party and the IFP?

MR MOTLOKWA: A civic is a community organisation, it doesn't matter whether you belong to the IFP or National Party, it belongs to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was the body that was responsible for the whole of Katlehong?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was also responsible for the SDU's?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only proper that if there is any problem with the ANC Youth League the matter should be raised at the civic level?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Now, during 1993 you were 30 years old, if I count the years correctly, is it not so?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you were eligible to be a member of the ANC Youth League if you so chose, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And generally the youth who are the member of the ANC Youth League joined the - who are the members of the ANC joined the ANC Youth League as youth? Do I understand that correctly?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I don't understand you, can you repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Okay, let me repeat my question. Generally the youth who are the members of the ANC normal joined the ANC Youth League if they so chose.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. You would have the ANC Youth League cut and the ANC cut as the mother body.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. Now, why did you not join the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was committed, I was involved in the block committee in the civic and I was a shop steward at work, I could not afford to have my hands full.

MR MAPOMA: Now lets come to the formation of the SDU's. Yesterday you correctly quoted the submission made by the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission about the formation of the SDU's.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, I remember.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that the ANC, when it suggested the formation of the SDU's, had a position that the self-defence units must have a political discipline?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, the ANC as an organisation which piloted the formation of the SDU surely must have had a political guidance to the SDU's, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir, that was the case but because of certain reasons we did not have a code of conduct the situation forced us. I've already told you that the members of the MK taught us how to handle guns. That is why most of the time the Kangaroo Court was in operation.

MR MAPOMA: So, are actions like Kangaroo Court actions which were not sanctioned by the ANC?

MR MOTLOKWA: The ANC never sanctioned the Kangaroo Courts, the people themselves formed the Kangaroo Courts. It was not the ANC policy to have Kangaroo Courts.

MR MAPOMA: Now were Kangaroo Courts conducted by the self-defence units?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, unfortunately all sides took part, the civic, the Youth League, the SDU. I cannot specifically say who was running the Kangaroo Court or who came with the idea of a Kangaroo Court.

MR MAPOMA: Right. Now, in your actions you were not reporting to the ANC as SDU's, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which act Sir?

MR MAPOMA: The actions like shooting people. I understand at some instances in the process of defence unit you had to shoot when a need was and such actions were not reported to the ANC, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we were the SDU for Moleleki section. We were supposed to report to the zonal, the zonal will forward that to the central, it was not our task. We operated according to structures, we would not just jump one structure and go to the ANC branch.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, let's go to the day when Blanko was attacked. In your evidence you said you identified a number of youths who were members of the ANC Youth League and some other adults who were not members of the ANC Youth League attacking Blanko's place, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And then an instruction came that: "Go attack the attackers of Blanko".

MR MOTLOKWA: After they have killed Blanko, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you captured those whom you captured, was there any person amongst those whom you captured who was not a member of the ANC Youth League and who was present when Blanko was attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand his evidence he referred to a I think about three groups, the first group of two persons were captured after the shoot-out at C Section, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And then later on at approximately 5a.m. a further person was captured and his name was Mokwena, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: Buthelezi Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there were persons who went to Manyala to report that they had been harassed by the SDU but it turned out to be that Ntjebe had already gone there to explain what had happened. They ran away but some were captured, I think three were captured and brought in a kombi.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Others were captured on information supplied by those who had been captured originally?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have to specify the group that you're talking about so that he can understand the question.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks Chairperson.

Now, were you present when Alfred Buthelezi was captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was present Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And when Mr Buthelezi was captured his son Thokozani was already in your custody, correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: His son was identified by the two we caught and then his son, after catching him, said: "Dad explain to these people why you sent me". He told us that his dad sent him to kill the members of the SDU's, that's the reason why his father was also killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should - the first two that you captured after the shoot-out, do you remember those?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember just one.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you captured two and one of them was Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you then speak to Mokwena and this other person to find out who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we talked to them and we asked them where they got the parcels from because they had parcels in their hands, then they gave us information.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us what you did to those persons that you captured, Mokwena and the other chaps.

MR MOTLOKWA: We took them to the community with the evidence that was found in their hands. We went to show the community and we revealed the information as to who was in their company.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think there were many members of the community, close to 500 Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the person who had gathered at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: I've explained Sir that those are the people who gathered at Blanko's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that. Now, at what stage did you then ask the persons to give the names of other person who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's place?

MR MOTLOKWA: After catching them, on our way back to the community we wanted information from them, we did not kill them immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: When asking them for this information, did you do anything to them?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not do anything to them but they were scared because we were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did you require from them and what information did they give to you?

MR MOTLOKWA: The first information was with regard to Bulelwa's death, that she was killed by members of the Youth League and the second point was that of Blanko, they killed Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you ask them firstly who had killed Bulelwa Ziwane?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: They said Vips was responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you ask them who had attacked Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: We asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: They said they attacked Blanko's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: They told us their names but this took place in 1993, I've forgotten their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you look for the persons who had been mentioned by these two persons?

MR MOTLOKWA: We went to look for them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find them?

MR MOTLOKWA: We found some and then the others we could not find.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you find?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I already indicated that the people who died are nine in all.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the people who died are nine, but we're just at a stage where you were questioning the two persons, Mokwena and the other person as to who had taken part in the attack at Blanko's house, do you understand the question?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then said that they gave you the names of the persons who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then looked for those individuals.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you only managed to get some but not all?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to look for those individuals, you personally, did you go to look for those individuals whose names had been mentioned?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Chairperson, we went in two groups.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did your group go to?

MR MOTLOKWA: Our group when to C.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find anyone at C?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson, we could not find anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the other group find anyone?

MR MOTLOKWA: They came back with three people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still remember the names of the persons that they came with?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Buthelezi one of them?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that Buthelezi was caught in the meeting because his son mentioned his name. He was amongst the crowd, they did not bring him with. The group came back three people, Buthelezi was caught amongst the people who gathered at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So you now had five persons.

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That made six?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The other group, you split into two groups, right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who were members of the other group?

MR MOTLOKWA: The other group was led by Sugar.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Was this near Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was at Blanko's place Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Buthelezi was present within the community, he was amongst the people who had gathered there?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that he was captured, who pointed him out?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Sir, his son, after we caught him, he said: "Father speak out, tell them you sent to kill them".

CHAIRPERSON: Was his son captured with the three persons by the Sugar group?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which three people Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, your group did not find anyone.

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not get anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: The group that was led by Sugar captured three.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was Buthelezi's son amongst the persons who were captured by the Sugar group?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that Buthelezi's son said: "Father, you said we must go to Blanko's house"?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think Buthelezi's son must have realised that there was no way out, they were not going to escape and then he decided to speak out.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they being interrogated at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: When they arrived at the meeting they were already assaulted Sir. I'm referring to the three who were caught in E Section.

CHAIRPERSON: By the way, do you know who else was in this group? It was Buthelezi's son, who else? The other two, do you know their names?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, at the meetings, were these persons interrogated?

MR MOTLOKWA: We already had the information we were looking for, they were not assaulted, they were just taken and fastened Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Buthelezi's son just volunteer this information or was he asked anything so as to come up with this information that his father had sent them to Blanko's house?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they were assaulted, now it's hard to tell whether he gave that information because of the pressure or voluntarily.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give this information at the meeting or on the way ...[End of Tape 1, side A - no follow on sound]

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, when you say he gave the information at the meeting, upon their arrival, that is the three captured by the Sugar group, were they asked anything by the people or the SDU's who were gathered at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: They asked them questions Sir.

MR MOTATA: Now, just assist us here, was there any specific person at the meeting who was the spokesperson who was, say, probably the one who was asking questions from the captured people?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MOTATA: Would you know who was asking questions from the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I know Sir, who was asking questions.

MR MOTATA: Could you give us the name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe Ndondolo was asking the questions.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

CHAIRPERSON: What questions did he ask?

MR MOTLOKWA: He asked them questions about Blanko and Bulelwa's death.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those deaths?

MR MOTLOKWA: He wanted to know who killed these two people.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they admitted having killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person who was not present there, that is now at the meeting who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko? I know at some point they said that Vips had killed Bulelwa.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person as having taken part in the killing of Bulelwa as far as you can recall?

MR MOTLOKWA: They mentioned many names Sir, but I can't remember them.

CHAIRPERSON: Many names of persons who were involved in the killing of Bulelwa?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about in regard to the death of Blanko, did they give names there?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct. They told us their names, the names of all the involved people and then we wrote them down on a list but I don't know what happened to that list.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just have clarity? You said Mokwena was one of the first two persons that you got hold of that night?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: Did I hear correctly, saying that Mokwena was not a member of the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was a member of the Youth League Sir.

MR MALAN: Did you say the other person was not a member of the Youth League?

CHAIRPERSON: Tusanang.

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang and Buthelezi.

MR MALAN: But Buthelezi was captured only at 5 o'clock you said. At 3 o'clock you captured Tusanang and Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no Chairperson. I already explained that at 3 o'clock we caught two people, that was Mokwena and the second one I do not know.

MR MALAN: It wasn't Tusanang?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, it was Tusanang.

MR MALAN: So it was Mokwena but the other one you did not know?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And then this Tusanang, who is he? Did you ever capture him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was captured but he managed to escape at the meeting.

MR MALAN: Have you ever seen him again?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, he ran away, he fled Katlehong.

MR MALAN: And he was not a member of the Youth League you say?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, he was not a member of the Youth League according to my knowledge.

MR MALAN: But you did say yesterday that you saw Tusanang with an AK47 at Blanko's house when you were woken up.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But he was not a member of the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Why would he have been there with the Youth League if the Youth League killed Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think I explained yesterday that the third force must have been involved here in trying to get rid of the SDU because if you look deep into this, Buthelezi was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, Tusanang was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, so it really surprised us why were they involved in the killing of Blanko.

MR MAPOMA: So you confirm that Tusanang and Buthelezi were members of the community at Moleleki also?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I would confirm that.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's come to the meeting which was chaired by or which was addressed by Machinini, where actually was this meeting held?

MR MOTLOKWA: This was a meeting at Blanko's place.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was it a community meeting which was convened or was it a place where people gathered to see what happened at Blanko's place out of interest?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say it was a community meeting because the vice chairperson of the zonal civic addressed them because after he arrived many people came. The issue discussed was the death of these two people.

MR MAPOMA: Now, this chairperson, was it Machinini?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did Machinini ask certain questions from the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chair, he did not ask them questions. I said Ntjebe Ndondolo was the person who was asking questions.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying that Machinini who was chairing a meeting gave Ntjebe Ndondolo an opportunity to ask the captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that fact, as to whether Machinini gave Ntjebe a chance to ask them questions but Ntjebe is the person who was asking questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Ntjebe?

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know, he's somewhere in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.

Now when exactly did Ntjebe ask these questions of the captured, was it before the meeting or when the meeting was going on, when precisely?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was during the process of the meeting but he called them aside, they were not in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: He called the captured persons to the side and then questioned them?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when that occurred, when they were being questioned?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Ntjebe asked them questions and he came to tell us their responses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTATA: But Mr Motlokwa if you can assist us here, I want to understand this, that you said Buthelezi's son said at the meeting: "Dad tell us why you said we should go and kill Blanko or Bulelwa", but now you say Ntjebe called these captured people aside and asked them what precisely did he also now, that is Buthelezi's son, say it aside and Ntjebe coming to report to the meeting what Buthelezi's son had said.

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, let me put it this way, after Ntjebe questioned them he came to report back and then we went and then his son, Buthelezi's son said: "Dad speak, you sent us to kill Blanko".

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his father then?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was in the meeting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the meeting, but in relation to where the son was and where the questioning was taking place, where was the father?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not estimate his position or the distance from the son but he was in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression that the father, that is Buthelezi, must have been close by where the questioning was taking place for the son to have said: "Father tell them, you are the one who said we must go to Blanko's place".

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, he did not speak soft, he shouted, he said: "Dad, tell them, tell them that you are the person who sent us to kill Blanko". He did not say it soft. The community heard that Buthelezi sent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Presumably the son could see where the father was or that the father was present at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He might have seen him Sir.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell us again, what was the time that this meeting was held, the time of day?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not remember the time but it was in the morning, 6 until 7 o'clock in the morning.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue again, sorry Mr Mapoma. This Tusanang, who captured him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was also captured at the meeting but he survived, he escaped.

MR MALAN: Was he captured at the meeting or was he captured and brought to the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He came with Sugar and them but he managed to survive.

MR MALAN: Did Sugar capture him at some other place, Sugar's group?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I think they came - he came with Sugar's group.

MR MALAN: How many people were captured when that meeting was held at 6 o'clock? How many people, captured people did you have at the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say there were 10 because Tusanang managed to escape.

MR MALAN: And this meeting was a meeting of the community and you said earlier there were about 500 people?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that's an estimation, I'm not sure.

MR MALAN: How did he escape?

MR MOTLOKWA: We were also surprised as to how he escaped, he must have used his tactics. We wanted him, he was nowhere to be found.

MR MALAN: He was captured, and I think you earlier said that some of them were already tied, was Tusanang not tied? Why not?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already said that after the meeting they were tied, then they were taken to that shack. They were still free during his escape.

MR MALAN: May I just pursue the nature of this meeting again. You say 6 o'clock in the morning, the sun has been up for less than an hour, you have 500 hundred people there, Machinini, the Chair of the civics is there, you say he's chairing the meeting but no questions asked, Ndondolo reports. Did Machinini speak at that meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Machinini was addressing the meeting, he addressed the meeting.

MR MALAN: What was his address about, what did he say?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was addressing the issue of Bulelwa and Blanko. He was addressing crime in general in Moleleki section.

MR MALAN: What did he say about Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was saying criminal activities must be done away with in Moleleki.

MR MALAN: Did he say criminal activities or did he say criminals? If I may repeat the question, did he say that people must be killed or did he say crime must stop?

MR MOTLOKWA: He did not say people must be killed, he said crime must be stopped.

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, I understood you yesterday to say that Katlehong with it's various sections was engulfed in violence and criminal activities and whilst Machinini was now addressing the meeting at the early hours of the morning at Blanko's place, why do you think he only spoke of Moleleki section and not Katlehong as a whole?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Machinini came with Manyala, Ntjebe and the three who were caught and he came with the intention of addressing the meeting because he was the vice chairperson of Zone 5.

MR MOTATA: Zone 5 would be Moleleki section?

MR MOTLOKWA: Zone 5 included Moleleki, Seloma, Moleleki and other sections.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.

Now in that meeting, were the parents and relatives of those captured present?

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not notice them, whether they were there or not but Buthelezi was present because his son managed to point him but I did not notice the others.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that meeting, was there at no stage where the parents of these children were asked their whereabouts?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: I take it Judge, that the majority of those were youths, is it correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And it was a question of children behaving themselves in a manner unbecoming in the community, isn't it so?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said already that they were the members of the ANC Youth League but their behaviour was not good at all within the community.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if a child misbehaves in the community generally, is it not expected that a parent of that child is called and told of the activities of the child? Is it not a general exercise?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it depended on the nature of the committed act and the emotions and the anger of the people, you can't control people's emotions.

MR MAPOMA: Is there no-one of the parents of those children who wanted to speak in that meeting, as far as you remember?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know any of the parents of those children who were captured at that time?

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not know any parent but last year on television, it was around October if I'm not mistaken, there was this info programme on SABC television and the parents of the deceased appeared on that programme and one family went to the veld where the deceased were killed and the head was still on the body. When she went to the mortuary the body was separated from the head.

Now this surprised me a lot because during the killing I didn't notice anybody chopping off the head. I am here today to tell the truth and I am not going to hide anything. I did not see anyone of us removing the head from the body.

MR MAPOMA: But that was not my question, my question was, is there anyone of those captured whose parents you knew at the time of the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: During the meeting I did not know any family, I knew Mokwena's family thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the meeting, where were these youths taken?

MR MOTLOKWA: They were taken to a shack that I've referred to yesterday.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that shack actually?

MR MOTLOKWA: In block F.

MR MAPOMA: Who's shack was it?

MR MOTLOKWA: Nobody owned the shack Sir.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by that, are you saying it was an empty shack that was not occupied by anyone?

MR MOTLOKWA: That was an empty shack Sir, because many inhabitants of F ran away from that area because that area was close to Zongezizwe and they were attacked by members of the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: When they were taken to the shack, how many were they?

MR MOTLOKWA: I can't be specific but I think there were eight because Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Vips and Manyala left with them in a kombi, where was Vips from?

MR MOTLOKWA: Vips went with this group, went back with this group. This is the group that was arrested when it went to report.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Vips is one of those who were in the community meeting, those captured who were there in the community meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Manyala and Machinini arrived in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Where did they arrive, in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was Vips taken to join other captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he was not taken to the shack. I already said that when they came with him he was half naked and they went back with him.

MR MAPOMA: Now let me get this correctly, you are saying they came with Vips in a kombi?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Into a meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when Vips was taken to a meeting, was Vips taken to join the others who were captured, in that meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was tied in the kombi, he did not get out of the kombi, he did not see the others. He did not go to the others who were captured at the meeting, he was tied in the kombi.

MR MAPOMA: In that community meeting the community did not see Vips, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, the kombis are transparent, they must have seen him but what I mean is that he was not taken out of the kombi to the community.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. So when the others were taken into the shack, how many were they?

MR MOTLOKWA: I think - it means there were eight because Vips left with them, with the others.

MR MAPOMA: Are there no others youths who were captured but who were not necessarily killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: I already mentioned that we fought in the early hours of the morning, it might have happened that many of them escaped. The person who I saw escape from the community was Tusanang, he was already captured and he escaped but I do not know about the others.

MR MOTLOKWA: Now let me understand this correctly, is it not correct that at a certain point there were some youths who were released from those who were captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that one of them was mistakenly identified and then he was released.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who that was?

MR MOTLOKWA: I know his father, I do not know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this father's name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mr Ngobese, N-G-O-B-E-S-E.

MR MAPOMA: Now at which stage was Mr Ngobese's son released?

MR MOTLOKWA: When they confirmed that he was not the right person he was immediately released.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that? Was it in a shack or in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was at the meeting at E section.

MR MAPOMA: At the meeting you said was at Blanko's place?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now that is the only youth you know of who was released?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, we did not have evidence about his involvement and he was released.

MR MAPOMA: So if I get your evidence well, all those youths who were captured except one, were then taken and killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying any information which says that at least four youths were released is not correct as far as you are concerned?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not say it's incorrect or it is correct. I said that we split into two groups, maybe they were released by the other group but not mine.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that shack, when the youths were taken to a shack, were you there in the shack?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I went to the shack when our commander issued out an order that they should, they must be fetched.

MR MAPOMA: Now to a shack, is it your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was taken together with the youths from Blanko's place where the meeting was, to a shack?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, all of them were tied up in the shack, all of them.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if any suggestion is that Mr Buthelezi happened to be captured because he went to a shack to look for his child and then was captured in that process, is that evidence not correct as far as you are concerned?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is incorrect Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Now this decision to kill them, when exactly was it communicated to you, when you were still at Blanko's place or at some other stage?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was after the meeting at Blanko's place, an order was issued out that they be killed.

MR MAPOMA: In that meeting which was chaired by Machinini, was there any resolution taken that the youth be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said that Machinini did not pronounce the death of these people, he was actually addressing the issue of stability in Moleleki, that crime must be stopped. And the people, the community, raised their views, they said they must be killed but the Chairperson of that meeting did not agree to that decision.

MR MAPOMA: Do you remember any, a single member of the community who came with that suggestion that they be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately it's hard to recall, I won't be specific as to who said they must be killed.

MR MAPOMA: So out of those views which were given by some people in the meeting, then an instruction from the SDU leadership came to you that they be killed, is that what I understand?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now Machinini, let me get Machinini's role, was he chairing this meeting or was he addressing as a speaker in the meeting?

MR MOTLOKWA: He was chairing the meeting Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now in the process of chairing the meeting there are some decisions which are taken and the chairperson conveys those decisions to the meeting, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Who was taking the decisions Sir?

MR MAPOMA: I'm just asking a general question now. In the normal course of a meeting a resolution is taken and the meeting conveys that resolution to the members of the meeting, that this is a resolution, is that not correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: In general that is the procedure.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. Now in this particular instance, is there any stage where Machinini announced that it is resolved by the community that these youths who were captured must be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he never said that, he never announced that.

MR MAPOMA: Will I be understanding it correctly if I say that it was never a decision of the community that the youths be killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: A decision was not taken by the chairman of the meeting that those youths be killed, an order was issued out by the commander of the SDU that these youths be killed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, through you Mr Chairperson.

Now how, in your opinion, did the meeting resolve the issue of the captured youths, what should be done about them?

MR MOTLOKWA: Some members of the community wanted these youths to be killed. I have already said that Machinini addressed the issue of stopping crime in Moleleki, the order came from the commander.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Now, do you know Sepo Baloi?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember him.

MR MAPOMA: Was he not amongst the youth who were captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge he is one of those who left with Ntjebe. I indicated yesterday that the vice chairperson of the section left with the commander to go and fetch the Red Cross but on their way in block A they were shot at by the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does Sepo Baloi come into the picture?

MR MOTLOKWA: Sir, there were rumours that Sepo Baloi was involved in the planning of the assault on members of the SDU but it was discovered later that rumour was not true. He in fact left with Ntjebe to go and fetch the Red Cross car to remove the body, so this was rumour was destroyed.

MR MAPOMA: Let's come to the incident of the killing. So the order was to kill the youth and your intention when you took them to the veld was to kill them as instructed?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, after the killing, what did you do? After you killed them, what did you do?

MR MOTLOKWA: After killing them I left for my home, I went to my home because I told you earlier on that I was instructed to rest and after executing this task I went home, I did not do anything thereafter.

MR MAPOMA: What time of the day did you kill them?

MR MOTLOKWA: It would be difficult to recall an incident of 1993 but it was on the 7th.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand, I understand very well Mr Motlokwa. I just want to find out, was it midday, was it in the morning, was it in the afternoon, evening?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was in the morning Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you understand that Mr Buthelezi's wife was also killed after that incident?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I heard that Mrs Buthelezi was also killed but I don't knowledge as to who killed her.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear that she was also killed by the members of the Self-defence Unit?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe is the relevant person to answer that question, I told you already that I left for my house. What transpired after the eight were killed I do not know.

MR MALAN: Could I just ask here?

According to Advocate Madasa you are applying for amnesty for the killing of all the victims except Bulelwa, now on the list of victims is also the name of Mrs Buthelezi. If you have no knowledge of that, why do you apply for amnesty for the death of Mrs Buthelezi?

MR MOTLOKWA: The list from the Attorney General's office doesn't have Mrs Buthelezi's name. If ever she had been killed by members of the SDU, the relevant person to answer that question would be Ntjebe. I've only applied for those eight people, not even Vips because Vips was also part of this group so I've applied for amnesty to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you have applied for amnesty for only those people for whose death you stand charged?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

...[End of tape 1B, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

MR MAPOMA: ...[no sound] what you did when you killed those whom you killed was politically motivated, how do you say that it was politically motivated to kill those people?

MR MOTLOKWA: The task of the SDU was to defend the community.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. But the community had an opportunity to decide what it is that has to be done about these youths and it did not resolve that these youths must be killed. How do you explain this one?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if we speak of the SDU and the civic, these are similar organisations but an order is not issued out in front of everybody, it must be directed to members of the SDU. Even members of the community who wanted to be part of the killing, Ntjebe did not allow them to take part in the killing because he only wanted members of the SDU.

MR MAPOMA: So the killing of the youths was an instruction which came from neither the community nor the African National Congress?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said the order was from Ndondolo.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, those are my questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any re-examination Mr Madasa?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair.

At the meeting at Blanko's place you were not in control of the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You were not chairing the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: You've told us about your own observations at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: You do not know all that happened at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MADASA: The meeting had many people and there was movement at the meeting, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Emotions of people at the meeting were highly charged, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: The members of the Committee will now put questions to you Mr Motlokwa. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to Mr Motlokwa?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Motlokwa, when listening to your evidence I have this feeling that it would appear that Vips was treated differently from the other people. You were saying for some time he was kept in a kombi and when the execution took place, Vips was not killed by you but he was killed by the other people. Can you please clarify me on that?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, I said already that Vips was not killed with the rest of the group. He left with Manyala and them and they took him to Kumalo section. Kumalo and Moleleki sections are not the same. They took him to that section to kill him there, I don't know the reasons thereof but he was killed.

MR SIBANYONI: And then you have just said you applied for the killing of eight people but I see in your application, paragraph A, sub-paragraph I, you are saying when the question says

"Acts or omissions of offences"

you say:

"nine : murder and thirteen kidnapping"

and then on sub-paragraph 4, you are saying:

"We killed nine of these gangsters"

Can you explain this difference?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, it is so in my application. I've applied for amnesty for killing nine people and thirteen cases of kidnapping. I'm applying for nine because I was part and parcel of the SDU, now I was present and involved when these eight people were killed, Vips included, because he was at the meeting and that is why I'm also asking for amnesty with regard to his case.

MR SIBANYONI: And earlier you said when you were asked: "Did you raise this matter with the ANC"?, first of all you said you wrote a letter, should I understand that you were part of the people who drafted the letter or you were not?

MR MOTLOKWA: Vusi drafted the letter.

MR SIBANYONI: You were not part of that process?

MR MOTLOKWA: It's the executive Sir, the executive of the SDU.

MR SIBANYONI: If there was supposed to be a meeting between the SDU's and the ANC or if the matter was supposed to be raised at that level, would you be the person who should take the initiative or somebody else or other people were supposed to do that?

MR MOTLOKWA: If the meeting would have succeeded I would not be present because I was not a - the member of the executive would be there and then they would give us the feedback at a general meeting because the executive of the SDU had its own meetings separate from the general meetings.

MR SIBANYONI: Now your position in the SDU's, was it at a level where you could be part of the decision making or not?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I was at a lower level, I was an operator. I was only given orders, I would not have taken any decision.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.

I have a number of matter which I'd like some clarity on, the first is the relation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. In your evidence, you said part of the problems you had with the Youth League was that they were harassing the Zulu speaking people and they were also doing crime, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now we also have information in one of your co-applicants' application form that the youth had a very bad relationship with Ndondolo, with Ntjebe, they didn't like him. Is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that effect Sir.

MR MALAN: From the applications it seems that the majority of the applicants are Xhosa speaking but the majority of the victims are Zulus.

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know Sir, whether they are Xhosas or Zulu victims. I think we are multi-racial Sir, I don't regard that as a Xhosa group.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, you gave evidence on several occasions referring to Xhosa speaking and Zulu speaking people, why now suddenly is everybody multi-racial?

MR MOTLOKWA: Explain your question further Sir.

MR MALAN: I was asking whether indeed there was a division between Xhosa and Zulu dominance in the SDU and in the Youth League.

MR MOTLOKWA: I did not put it that way. I said, within the SDU the Youth League was ruled by the Xhosas, people who came from the rural areas, I think I put it that way. I didn't say there was a fight between the Xhosas and the Zulu's within the ANC Youth League. I said the youth said they were not going to be ruled by people from the rural areas.

MR MALAN: You indeed said Transkei.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now why would they not be ruled by people from the Transkei?

MR MOTLOKWA: They have knowledge to that effect, they know why they don't want to be ruled by people from the rural area.

MR MALAN: In some of the applications and especially in some of the statements from victims there's reference to the parents and especially the mothers of some of the people who were killed, who wanted to stop the killing, do you have any knowledge of any of the mothers trying to prevent the killing of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately I did not see mothers trying to plead for their children, I did not see them.

MR MALAN: Have you no knowledge of any parent who pleaded for the lives of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: No.

MR MALAN: There will also be evidence or there is evidence before us in writing from some of the mothers saying that when they wanted to stop this killing, when you were taking the children out into the veld, that they were told: "You can pick up your dogs in the veld".

MR MOTLOKWA: That is news to me.

MR MALAN: You have at no stage had any of the parents of the deceased intervening or pleading or talking on behalf of their children?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson. I said I did not see them pleading for their children.

MR MALAN: And neither did you hear them plead?

MR MOTLOKWA: After these children were killed I only saw parents crying but to plead for the lives of their children, I did not see.

MR MALAN: You talked about shootings on more than one occasion. The one occasion was when some of your members went to fetch the Red Cross, you say they were shot at by the youths, was anybody injured? They managed to escape you say, was any one of them injured?

MR MOTLOKWA: No-one was injured. The car was damaged, all the windows were shattered but they survived.

MR MALAN: And on the occasion of the capture of the first two persons, that was preceded by a shoot-out you said.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me a little about that shooting, was there being shot from both sides?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, both sides were shooting but I do not know whether on their side they were hit by bullets but on our side nobody was injured.

MR MALAN: But you captured two people there at that shooting?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were there more people?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, there were more people but they ran away.

MR MALAN: But you captured two?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did they have guns?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, they only had parcels, the things they took from the Spaza shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be from Blanko's Spaza shop?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: That fight, the second shoot-out that you're talking about, in your evidence in chief you said that you were fighting with them until 3 o'clock in the morning, so how long did that shoot-out last?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said Chair, that we went out looking for them and when we found them the shooting ensued and they ran away and we followed them, looking around, there were no lights but we were in the company of the captured two.

MR MALAN: Then on several occasions you used the phrase that: "When people are angry they can't be controlled, their emotions were high", in fact in re-examination your advocate put this question to you again about the high emotions and the uncotrollability of people, that is correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now, Bulelwa and Blanko were very close to the SDU, you worked together?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: When they were killed, were the members of the SDU angry?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes. I told you already that Bulelwa was killed at about 9 o'clock and then I was fetched from home to guard the corpse and after Bulelwa's death Blanko was attacked.

MR MALAN: The question is not about the facts, my question is about your members then being very angry and emotions running high, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, their emotions were high.

MR MALAN: I would simply say to myself, the emotions amongst the members of the SDU must have been even higher than amongst the community.

MR MOTLOKWA: I don't know whether the emotions of the SDU and the emotions of the community, I can't tell who among the two was emotionally high.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment, we will come back at twenty past eleven.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

M O MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any reason why we are starting 10 minutes late?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, I think there may have been a lack of communication because I came and warned the Committee members that I will depend on them but otherwise we are ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Is the first applicant here?

MR MAPOMA: He has not yet arrived Chairperson, but the briefing I got from our logistics officer is that these police confirmed that they are coming with him but he is not yet here.

CHAIRPERSON: How long does it take to go to prison and bring a person to Boksburg from Johannesburg?

MR MAPOMA: To be honest Chairperson, that is what I myself find very difficult to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Would you please investigate the cause of this delay and please let us know what is the cause of the delay because I find this unacceptable. The first applicant should have been here this morning when we commenced proceedings.

MR MALAN: Mr Motlokwa, may I pursue two matters. The first is, in your evidence in chief you said that if you are on patrol and you find someone on the street and he does not respond it's very difficult, you were talking about the curfew. Were you saying that some of these people were shot on the spot?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we did not shoot at people during the patrol, we did not shoot at people during the patrol Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So what was the difficulty them if people didn't respond, what did you do?

MR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we will report this to the community, we will tell the community that there are people who disturb us in our duty.

MR MALAN: But you did nothing to the people, you don't capture them, you don't apprehend the, you just report that there are people, is that what you're saying?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, some of them were assaulted at times.

MR MALAN: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: They would be assaulted and that person would be accompanied to his home so that he could sleep.

MR MALAN: And if you would find that that person is not living in the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, you now want me to speak about the Katlehong in general. If we shout: "One" and he doesn't respond: "One", then it was difficult for us because at times this person would shoot at us and then we have to act, if he acts then we act.

MR MALAN: How did you act, that was the question that I asked in the beginning? Did you shoot back or did you shoot first on occasions?

MR MOTLOKWA: We shoot back.

MR MALAN: Then, the second issue that I want to canvass is the division between the SDU and the Youth League. In your evidence in chief again you said that in the beginning they were part of the SDU, you were patrolling together.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And at some stage they became divided, that was your evidence.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: You said they then became independent of you.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, they left us and they became independent.

MR MALAN: So they were patrolling by themselves in some areas?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now we have evidence from some of the witnesses, on paper at this stage, saying that the Youth League at the time was patrolling sections A,B,C and D and that the SDU's were patrolling E and F, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, that is not true.

MR MALAN: Now how did you patrol separately, was there not a geographical division?

MR MOTLOKWA: The SDU patrolled the whole of Moleleki, all the blocks were patrolled by the SDU.

MR MALAN: And the Youth League, did they have their independent patrols also in all the blocks?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know whether they patrolled, I do not know of their patrol.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the structure, in Katlehong you have various sections such as Moleleki, Twala and others, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then within each section there are blocks.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The SDU's and the ANC Youth League patrolled different sections or different blocks within the sections?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, are you referring to the SDU in Katlehong in general or the SDU in Moleleki?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, firstly in Katlehong and then in Moleleki.

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge, the people who patrolled were the members of the SDU, the Youth League was under the control of the SDU. I told you already that on my arrival at Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling but thereafter the SDU was formed.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, I just want you to deal with the period after some members but not all members of the ANC Youth League decided to break away from the SDU, do you remember that stage?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember that stage Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the stage when some members of the SDU decided to bread away from the SDU, did those members of the ANC Youth League who broke away from the SDU patrol the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: After they separated themselves from us, I mentioned yesterday that they started their criminal activities, robbing of taxis, taking people's properties, shooting at bakeries, taking targets.

CHAIRPERSON: But were they doing that under the pretext that they were patrolling the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would say they shielded themselves with the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which organisation?

MR MOTLOKWA: They Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: When they engaged in these activities, how did they justify them? Did they say the were patrolling or did they claim they were protecting the community? We do note that, I think you told us yesterday, that at some point they killed Majosi who was the member of the Communist Party I think.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct and his two cousins.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when they did these acts, did they claim to be protecting the community?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was difficult because if we asked them, say for instance you approach a PAC member and you ask him, then the policies would differ, now there was a problem already.

The executive went to them to ask them why they hit Majosi, they said they were sorry they thought it was Inkatha. Sir, if you look carefully at this issue they always hit at a person who has a tuck shop. They would hit that person and rob him of his money.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: If members of the Youth League would be saying that they also independently patrolled A,B,C, and D blocks, would you dispute that?

MR MOTLOKWA: I would not dispute that. I told you that they were doing their own things but not under the SDU.

MR MALAN: No but Mr Motlokwa, I said that this was after - in terms of your evidence, they became independent. My question was, after they became independent, did they further patrol parts of Moleleki?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I told you that we patrolled the whole of Moleleki, we have never met them patrolling. We were the only people patrolling Moleleki.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not know though whether - what the activities that they engaged in, were engaged in, in the process of their patrolling the areas that they claim to have been patrolling at the time?

MR MOTLOKWA: Can you repeat your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: After some of the members of the ANC Youth League had broken away from the SDU they were no longer subject to the discipline of the SDU leadership. I think you told us that they began to engage in criminal activities.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no knowledge of the fact that they were patrolling the township?

MR MOTLOKWA: We discovered that there was a rumour, it looked like they were patrolling with very small children but to my knowledge they were not patrolling.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if they claimed that they were patrolling certain blocks within Moleleki for example, they may well have done that but that was not under the auspices of the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: There is that possibility. Maybe they patrolled, the SDU didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: The last issue is, there was a question whether there was a meeting to reconcile and you told about the meeting that was called by central and the Youth League was there and that you were suspended for three months and your arms were taken away, confiscated. Why were you suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, if you talk of peace you must leave behind the arms. We were suspended for three months pending the investigations as to the cause of the conflict between the ANC Youth League and the SDU. After three months the suspension was lifted and we went back but it was difficult for the ANC Youth League to be suspended because during our suspension some of our members were attacked.

MR MALAN: Who patrolled Moleleki in the time of your suspension?

MR MOTLOKWA: Central sent people.

MR MALAN: Was there no action taken at that stage against the Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the decision to suspend you?

MR MOTLOKWA: The decision was taken at central. There was a meeting that both parties be suspended and be disarmed and they took our arms and we were suspended for three months. After those three months we were given our arms back.

CHAIRPERSON: But this suspension only affected those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section?

MR MOTLOKWA: The aim of the suspension was to suspend both the ANC Youth League and the SDU. As the members of the SDU we handed in our arms but the ANC Youth League did not hand in its arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the members of the SDU who were suspended - in other words were all the members of the SDU suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Including those who patrolled other sections?

MR MOTLOKWA: Moleleki section only.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought so. So only those members of the SDU who patrolled Moleleki section were suspended?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the purpose of the suspension was to investigate the cause of the conflict between the SDU members and the ANC Youth League in Moleleki?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Your arms were then confiscated in the process?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But the ANC Youth League did not surrender their arms?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that the ANC Youth League broke away from the SDU, I'm talking about Moleleki section, you remember that?

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did ANC Youth Leagues formally announce their withdrawal from the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, they did not do it formally. There was no meeting held where they pronounced that they are separating from us.

CHAIRPERSON: But how was their intention to withdraw from the SDU communicated to the members of the SDU?

MR MOTLOKWA: They were no longer attending the patrols, we only saw two of them and the rest had already left. I already alluded to the fact that there was another group of youths and they occupied the shacks that were vacant and we realised that they were engaged in criminal acts, because one day when they were asleep we got into their shacks and we found car radios and many things.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this group of youths which now occupied block F, were they members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: Some were members of the Youth League and some I did not know because I did not know their origin, we heard that they were members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to their withdrawal from the SDU's were they ever approached for reasons for their withdrawal?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not approach them.

CHAIRPERSON: On a Thursday when you returned from custody in connection with your trial, Lucky approached you and told you that he wanted to assault members of the SDU, is that what he told you?

MR MOTLOKWA: Let me rectify that Sir. He did not come to me, we did not meet, we met on Friday when he said he has already organised the youth because they want to assault these men. I don't what he referred to when he said they were an obstacle in their way.

CHAIRPERSON: Which men was he referring to?

MR MOTLOKWA: The members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: He told you that he had already organised the youth because the SDU wanted to attack them?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you then?

MR MOTLOKWA: He said they have organised the youth and during those days they were going to attach those men. When I asked why, he said their guns had been confiscated and the same Friday I went to report to Ntjebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Who had organised the youth? Who did he say had organised the youth?

MR MOTLOKWA: He said they themselves organised the youth, he did not specifically tell me. He said they themselves had organised the youth so that those men be assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Lucky told you that the ANC Youth League had organised the youth?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the intention of organising the youth was to assault the SDU members?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the SDU members were an obstacle?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why he would - he knew that you were a member of the SDU, did he not?

MR MOTLOKWA: He knew very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you know why he would tell you this?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to my recollection I think I told you that when I arrived in Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling and I patrolled with them. When the stability unit was troubling them I gave them money so that can run away, so he came to me knowing that I am the person who assisted them. And I tried to convince him that: "Look here, if you attack them there's going to be a huge conflict".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he consider you to be sympathetic towards the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: He knew that I'm a peace-loving person, I was on good terms with everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntjebe Ndondolo and others went to the Red Cross to seek assistance for the removal of Bulelwa's body, is that right?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[End of tape 2, day 2, side A - no follow-on sound]

MR MOTLOKWA: ...[no sound] Sepo Baloi Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MR MOTLOKWA: And the driver but I just happen to forget the driver's name, they were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to Mokwena?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which Mokwena are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: This is now Mokwena who was captured I think in the early hours on the 7th of December 1993.

MR MOTLOKWA: I know what happened to Mokwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well what happened to him?

MR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was left alone because he just small, he was a little boy.

MR MALAN: You say Mokwena was a little boy. According to our records Mokwena was older than Mavuso, Peter Mavuso Modishwa and he was older than Thokozani Buthelezi and he was older than Mtumaleng Moetsi(?), why were the other boys then killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson yes, you are referring to their ages but when we looked at then he was a small person in body, we must have thought that he was little.

CHAIRPERSON: There is an allegation somewhere in the papers to the effect that the persons who were captured and eventually killed had been told that on that evening the instability unit would come for them and therefore they should go and seek refuge in a shack in F section -in block F, Moleleki section, do you know anything about that?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I do not know anything about those allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can recall only one youth of those who had been captured was released?

MR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned Mokwena from the onset, he was the first one that was captured together with this other one, which means that Mokwena is alive today. I mentioned this yesterday because I said yesterday: "One of them has since died". Maybe you did not understand me well, I'm sorry about that part.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I understood you very well. What you did say is that, as far as you can recall only one person was released because it had been discovered that he had been captured by mistake.

MR MOTLOKWA: I remember I said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this person?

MR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned that Ngobese's child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mokwena would be the second person who was also released?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those two, do you know of any other person who were released?

MR MOTLOKWA: I told you already that Tusanang managed to escape. I told you already that we went out in two groups, maybe the other group caught people and they released them, I don't know but I know of these two plus the one who escaped which means that there are three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Vuyani Shabalala?

MR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: There's an allegation that Vuyani Shabalala was amongst who were taken to the veld where the rest of the persons were killed but that he survived the shooting, do you anything about that?

MR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I discovered in jail that one of the eight people survived, he managed to wake up. But according to the way we assaulted them and killed them, we were sure that nobody was going to survive. It really took me by surprise that Shabalala survived.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you know who the person is who survived?

MR MOTLOKWA: I was told that it is Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a further allegation that all in all 13 youths and one adult had been - were abducted, do you know?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know anything about those allegations. As I've mentioned I would not even deny that because we went out in two separate groups but our group was not involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure that I understand your evidence correctly. After the shooting or the shoot-out I think at block C is it, two person were captured, Mokwena and another person that you don't know?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, the one who died, yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And later that morning a third person was captured.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his name?

MR MOTLOKWA: The third person who was captured, I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the group which was led by Sugar which brought back three persons. Buthelezi's son, did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct, he died.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Tusanang who we know escaped?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The third person, do you know his name?

MR MOTLOKWA: Which third person Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Sugar's group brought back three persons amongst whom was Buthelezi's son, Tusanang and a third person, who was the third person, do you know him?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MR MOTLOKWA: Ngobese's child was released. I don't know whether they all died, I remember one child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So the third person that came back with Sugar's group was Ngobese's son?

MR MOTLOKWA: It might be so if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not sure?

MR MOTLOKWA: I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Then at the meeting Buthelezi senior was then captured?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there's the group that ran into Manyala's place which was brought back in a kombi in which there was Vips and two other persons?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of the other two person who were captured together Vips?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they die, were they killed?

MR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed members of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MOTLOKWA: It was rumoured that Buthelezi was a member of the IFP but I am not sure as to whether he was a full member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from Buthelezi?

MR MOTLOKWA: No-one else.

CHAIRPERSON: Buthelezi the senior though was killed because he had been involved in the killing of Blanko?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And to you knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed persons from the hostels?

MR MOTLOKWA: I do not know Sir. I told you already that they came from different places. I don't know whether among them there was anyone from the hostel but I don't foresee anyone coming from the hostel to the township because of the situation that reigned.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when these persons were killed you believed that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: I believed that they were criminals Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not believe that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: We did not believe that they members of the ANC Youth League according to what they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: But did these persons who were killed hold themselves out as members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But insofar as you are concerned you were killing criminals?

MR MOTLOKWA: According to their actions yes, they were criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa, you may return to your seat.

MR MOTLOKWA: Chair, there is a request from my side, there's a request that I would like to direct to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MOTLOKWA: There is one of my applications that I submitted in 1996, I was given a notice that I will appear before a public hearing and I do not know what happened to that case and I told myself that when I appear before you it will be because of those two applications. I now request you as the Committee to speed up the process so that I can appear again before the Commission, that is my request. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just before you go, when did you make that application?

MR MOTLOKWA: In 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that the Committee Member, Mr Malan has made inquiries in regard to your other application and he has the particulars. We will take the matter up with the appropriate personnel within the Amnesty Committee and you will be notified in due course as to when that application will be heard.

MR MALAN: Chair, if I may just for the record say, so that there is no misunderstanding, I also got information about the second application last night. I did make inquiries this morning. The matter is still being investigated and if I remember correctly it relates to an incident on the trains, is we're speaking about the same one.

MR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And if that is so, that matter is still being investigated. It may not necessarily be brought to a hearing but you will be advised, it is under investigation.

MR MOTLOKWA: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair. I call Mr Sonti.

CHAIRPERSON: Zola Nxeba Michael Sonti?

MR MADASA: Yes, number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Applicant number 5.

Good afternoon Mr Sonti.

...[problems with channels]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, is it correct that you were a member of the SDU during the time in question?

MR SONTI: That is correct Sir. I am a follower of ANC under the defence unit.

MR MADASA: When did you join the ANC?

MR SONTI: I joined the ANC in 1986.

MR MADASA: Firstly, how old are you now?

MR SONTI: 39 years old.

MR MADASA: Are you married?

MR SONTI: Yes, I am married.

MR MADASA: How far did you go at school?

MR SONTI: Up to standard six.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, can you put that thing down. Where is your original home?

MR SONTI: My original home is in Sterkspruit in Herschel.

MR MADASA: Are you settled in Johannesburg or are you still a resident in the Transkei?

MR SONTI: I'm a permanent resident here in Johannesburg now.

MR MADASA: When did that begin?

MR SONTI: I arrived in 1980.

MR MADASA: When you arrived, where did you settle? Which area?

MR SONTI: I settled in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Where in Katlehong?

MR SONTI: At the hostel in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Which hostel?

MR SONTI: Pwesini Hostel.

MR MADASA: Why did you leave that place?

MR SONTI: I left the hostel, first of all I will say, after I brought my wife here I had to go and scout around for a house in the location in Katlehong and leave the hostel.

MR MADASA: So where did you go to settle?

MR SONTI: At 574 Nyala section. There are so many other places that I lived at.

MR MADASA: When did you go to live in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: I went to Moleleki in '1993, the 1st of June. I was from Seloma, 506 Seloma B.

MR MADASA: Why did you go to Moleleki?

MR SONTI: Moleleki Extension 2 was developed by the ANC organisation for people who did not have homes at the time.

MR MADASA: When you went to Moleleki, were you already a member of the SDU?

MR SONTI: It is correct.

MR MADASA: When had you become a member of the SDU?

MR SONTI: It was in 1992, in Zone 5 in Seloma.

MR MADASA: Let's clarify this issue first, you are applying for amnesty for what?

MR SONTI: I applied for amnesty so that I may be forgiven that I took part in the cases that are being discussed in this hearing and I was the first accused, accused number one in the Court of Law.

Now that I am here I am prepared to divulge all the information I have and put the truth on the table.

MR MADASA: Are you now on bail in that case?

MR SONTI: Yes, I'm on bail.

MR MADASA: Now, you are now in Moleleki, you are a member of the SDU, what was - were you an office bearer within the SDU structure? Did you hold an office?

MR SONTI: Yes, I was a committee member that combined self-defence units and general and the community and the executive committee that was existing in Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: Was that committee under the SDU or civic or what?

MR SONTI: It was a committee that belonged to the self-defence unit.

MR MADASA: What were its functions?

MR SONTI: Its functions were the general of the self-defence unit to discuss with the civic all the executive of the ANC and the sectional committee of Moleleki Section 2.

MR MADASA: So this committee was a liaising structure between various organisations which were in existence there?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: What were you in that committee?

MR SONTI: I was just an ordinary person.

MR MADASA: Did you have specific functions that you did?

MR SONTI: I was just and ordinary person and would listen to the general and on behalf of the general and discuss some other things with the civic and the community as well.

MR MADASA: Now, when you came to Moleleki, can you explain to the Committee if there was already an SDU structure there and if so, which areas did it patrol?

CHAIRPERSON: This is in regard to which area?

MR MADASA: Moleleki.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you what Mr Madasa, we now the background as to the establishment of the SDU's in Moleleki, we hear that from Mr Motlokwa. You need not burden us with that background unless of course there is something that you want to highlight, in which event you can do that but you can assume that we now know the background.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair, let me be specific.

Is it correct that Buthelezi who is on the list of deceased persons, sought to organise a different SDU structure within Moleleki?

MR SONTI: That is true Sir. Pardon me.

MR MADASA: When Buthelezi wanted to do that there were SDU's that were patrolling Moleleki section, is that correct?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: And that SDU was responsible for the whole of Moleleki from block A to F?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: How did it come about that Buthelezi wanted to organise another structure, tell us about that?

MR SONTI: First of all Sir, I will say I bear no knowledge insofar as that is concerned and as to why he wanted to form another defence unit. One thing I will say to you is, even so, the first self-defence unit that was already existing in Moleleki 2, he did not want to see it at all. He did not want it completely.

MR MADASA: So what did he do, how did he organise?

MR SONTI: He combined the community of block F wanting to form a self-defence unit of block F only and also wanted volunteers to that effect to serve in the block F. Four members amongst the other members of the two who are applying for amnesty were part of block F. They volunteered themselves in that meeting and they were withdrawn and were told that they should not volunteer themselves because their problem is apparent. The two of them are applying for amnesty.

MR MADASA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

MR SONTI: It is Moses Augustine and Themba Christopher Mtshali.

CHAIRPERSON: So these two individuals volunteered for the SDU organised by Mr Buthelezi?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: How did Buthelezi do this, did they call a meeting?

MR SONTI: Oh yes, he called for a meeting in block F where people had to convene and he put forward his request that he wanted people to volunteer themselves to this effect.

MR MADASA: And these people you have just mentioned who are applicants, were they living in block F at that time?

MR SONTI: That's correct.

MR MADASA: Who attended that meeting?

MR SONTI: The members of the self-defence unit, four of them who were there in block F and the two that have applied for amnesty.

MR MADASA: What I want to know, why did they volunteer to be part of another unit when it was already in existence?

CHAIRPERSON: And who? Even the two who are applicants?

MR MADASA: Yes, the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, shouldn't you address that question to them unless he knows though?

MR MADASA: If you know, if you don't know Sir, you don't know.

MR SONTI: I think since they resided in block F they deemed it fit to volunteer themselves automatically.

MR MADASA: Okay, where did Buthelezi come from?

MR SONTI: From what I heard, although I knew him for a short period of time, he came from Tokoza in Zongezizwe and came know to Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: And Zongezizwe was a stronghold of Inkatha?

MR SONTI: First of all Zongezizwe had all deferent races and subsequently it was a stronghold of IFP.

MR MADASA: So when Buthelezi came to Moleleki, Zongezizwe was no longer for Zongezizwe so to speak, it was now a stronghold of Inkatha.

MR SONTI: I will say even other races were part of Inkatha, but I would like to say Inkatha was the one who was dominant in Zongezizwe.

MR MADASA: Who addressed that meeting which Buthelezi had convened?

MR SONTI: It was himself and other comrades from block F where Bulelwa the sister was present as well.

MR MADASA: Was that SDU which he was organising eventually formed?

MR SONTI: I think it was eventually formed Mr Chair, because if it wasn't formed we wouldn't be where we are today.

MR MADASA: What was it called?

MR SONTI: Even though it did bear any name known as SDU but from its actions - it had no name, that's all I can say to you.

MR MADASA: Did it have a relationship with the ANC Youth League?

MR SONTI: I would like to say yes to that. It had a relationship with the Youth League because some of the members who rule from the Youth League became its members.

MR MADASA: Did these members join Buthelezi's - did the members of the ANC Youth League join Buthelezi's group after they had divided themselves from you?

MR SONTI: I want to agree to that point.

MR MADASA: And what were they called or how did they call themselves?

MR SONTI: They had no name except that they called themselves ANC Youth League.

MR MADASA: So what you're saying is that - is this ANC Youth League you're now referring to the same as the one Motlokwa earlier on referred to after it had separated itself from the SDU?

MR SONTI: That is correct.

MR MADASA: So what you're saying is that Buthelezi was instrumental in causing the division between the ANC Youth League and SDU, is that what you say?

MR SONTI: That's what I want to say Sir.

MR MADASA: Did he have anything against the SDU that was already in existence?

MR SONTI: He was not clear if he was against the SDU but what surprises me is that we lived in one area and the four who resided in block F who volunteered themselves were withdrawn. I would like to say there is something that he was up to.

CHAIRPERSON: At the meeting that was called by Buthelezi, I think you mentioned that the Bulelwa Ziwane was also present.

MR SONTI: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she speak at that meeting?

...[End of tape b, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

MR SONTI: ...[no sound]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[no sound] Buthelezi.

MR SONTI: All that Bulelwa was concerned about was that she wanted to know about the existing defence unit

as to why it was necessary to form the second one and wouldn't they want some help some the existing one because already in Block F we are under Zongezizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: And was she given the answer?

MR SONTI: It was said that since she was a woman she should keep her mouth shut.

CHAIRPERSON: The other members of the SDU who were present, did they say anything?

MR SONTI: Those were the ones who where withdrawn from the whole thing and it was said their problems were known.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you talking about now?

MR SONTI: I'm talking about Moses and Themba Mtshali and the two that did not apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they withdraw from the SDU?

MR SONTI: They withdrew at that particular meeting not from the existing one, the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

MR SONTI: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

MR SONTI: I would like to say to you Mr Chairman, even though it was suggested that the self-defence unit should be formed that we did not know about at all, it went on because first of all the two members who are applying for amnesty, when they brought this report to us we tried to know as the members of the existing defence unit as to whether what was happening. After we requested a meeting it was apologised and withdrawn.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at that meeting?

MR SONTI: I was present at the meeting.

MR MADASA: So you are saying, after this Buthelezi meeting another meeting was convened, is that what you say?

MR SONTI: That's the meeting I'm referring to. After we heard about the formation of the new defence unit we tried to find as much information as possible as to why this was being done.

MR MADASA: When Buthelezi made the call for the formation of a new SDU, was the ANC Youth League still part of your SDU.

MR SONTI: The ANC Youth League was already separated from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when the decision was made to form this new SDU the ANC Youth League had already broken away from the SDU which was patrolling in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, was Buthelezi therefore inviting the ANC Youth League members who had separated themselves from you to form a new SDU?

MR SONTI: I would like to say to you Sir, I don't know whether he was inviting them or he was already done with them because more times than not, as my co-accused Motlokwa had earlier explained, there was that division. There were so many people residing in different areas just like - who were not there and some were ANC Youth League who were in block F.

MR MADASA: But what you have said is that at that meeting which was about a formation of a new SDU, your members were not accepted to become part of the new formation?

MR SONTI: Yes, that's what I said.

MR MADASA: Alright. Now, do you know of incidents that the ANC Youth League - I'm speaking now after it had separated ways with you, do you know of any incidents in particular that they were involved which you did you not ...[intervention]

MR SONTI: Yes, I do, I do know.

CHAIRPERSON: What name did they give to themselves? Were they also called self-defence unit?

MR SONTI: It was the self-defence unit because it was formed under the name of forming the SDU community.

CHAIRPERSON: They did not have a different name to distinguish them from the SDU which had been in existence in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: I don't have recollection to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson, was it possible for the community to be aware that there were now two groups, those SDU's which were recently formed and the SDU's which were initially formed?

MR SONTI: With regard to your question, it was amazing, the whole thing because there was already an SDU in place and there was another one that was about to be formed so the whole thing was just surprising. And why would that be done, we all had that question.

MR MAPOMA: But was an ordinary person in the street able to see that there are now two forces in place?

MR SONTI: Yes, although I may not confirm

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, now we know that the SDU's formed between yourselves and the ANC Youth League used to patrol, do you bear knowledge whether those that belonged to Buthelezi also patrolled? For instance, let's confine ourselves to Moleleki section or the various components which fell under Moleleki section.

MR SONTI: According to what was happening, although Moleleki Section 2 had six blocks or sections, although there was no-one who was nominated or elected not to protect others but from block F the patrol should have been in place but - although they were forming the second defence unit, it wasn't supposed to patrol block F only because SDU units that was in existence was already patrolling from block A right up to block F.

MR MOTATA: Do you bear knowledge whether they did in fact patrol any other area? Do you have such knowledge?

MR SONTI: Yes, I do bear knowledge because of the following reasons: After the self-defence unit and the Youth League was divided they once brought an opinion that even though we are between Zongezizwe and Kwesini hostel these two areas are predominantly Inkatha. They felt that they will occupy and most of the time patrol in Kwesini and they asked us to be in block F where - because block F was next to Zongezizwe.

MR MOTATA: If I may now ask you, we know that the incident we are here about occurred on the 6th and 7th of December 1993 and we have heard as well that there was bad blood between ANC Youth League, that they eventually separated, could you probably give us an indication when the two, that is the SDU's and the ANC Youth League separated, more or less?

MR SONTI: I will want to go back to the time when I arrived at Moleleki Extension 2, would you allow me to do that?

MR MOTATA: If it would be of assistance, yes.

MR SONTI: Thank you very much. Sir, in Moleleki Extension 2 I arrived on the 1st of June 1993, I was from Seloma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, I think what the member wants to know is, do you know the date approximately when this separation occurred?

MR SONTI: I may not confirm the date but more or less it could have been in September after we buried comrade Atwell Kabanjane, Mavuso Kabanjane of Ramkunope East.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be September 1993?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure I understand this. There was a meeting between the old and the new SDU in terms of which it was agreed that the new SDU would confine their patrol in block F?

MR SONTI: Please listen attentively. This ANC Youth League was formed by Mr Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. I want to know about the agreement relating to the areas of patrol for the different units.

MR SONTI: ANC Youth League brought this suggestion and we did not quite accept that. And as I've already told you about Kwesini and Zongezizwe, they decided to patrol block A and we should patrol towards block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they came with a proposal in terms of which they were going to patrol block A and you were going to patrol block F.

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept this proposal?

MR SONTI: Firstly we accepted it but after quite some time we felt, no it's not doing us any good because of the following reasons: even though block A was towards the direction from the location, there were so many incidents that were taking place in block A towards the bridge.

Towards early hours of the morning you would find that some people are found there lying down injured around block A.

CHAIRPERSON: We intend taking the lunch adjournment now. Would this be an appropriate moment or would you want to cover certain aspects of the evidence in chief first?

MR MADASA: We can adjourn Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We can adjourn. Yes, very well. We rise and reconvene at 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Having regard to the somewhat unbearable heat that is generated by these lights, I think you gentlemen are free to take off your coats if you so wish.

ZOLA NXEBE MICHAEL SONTI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, I want you to clarify this once and for all, the new SDU and the ANC Youth League did they become one after the Youth League had separated itself from you?

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think his evidence amounts to saying that these were just two separate entities.

Isn't that right?

MR SONTI: I would like to clarify again. The members of the ANC Youth League, they separated themselves from us, they went to join the self-defence unit that was being formed at the time in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so the old and the new self-defence unit were to separate entities?

MR SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, after this new formation, Buthelezi's formation, is it correct that there were no two SDU formations but it was the old SDU to which you belonged and the new organisation which comprised the ANC Youth League members and the SDU's of Buthelezi?

MR SONTI: No, they were not combined.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And they called themselves self-defence units?

MR SONTI: I would say so because their activities were almost similar although they were different there and there.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.

Would you say there was a new SDU or would you say the ANC Youth League was then the new SDU?

MR SONTI: As I've said before, Mr Buthelezi, as he endeavours to form a new SDU, he called for volunteers so that the self-defence unit is formed in Moleleki block F.

In other words I'm trying to say people who got out were there as the ANC Youth League, still the former members of the old ones.

MR MAPOMA: Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU?

MR SONTI: Please repeat your question again.

MR MAPOMA: Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU?

MR SONTI: I will say they were there.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Do you know of a member of the ANC Youth League which joined Buthelezi's new defence unit?

MR SONTI: Yes, I have one in mind.

MR MADASA: Who?

MR SONTI: The one that I know very well who separated himself from us was Mavuso Modishwa who used to be a member. That's the one I'm quite sure about who left us for the other unit.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, this gadget is very sensitive. We would request you as far as possible to please not fiddle with it with your hands, it's very sensitive, thank you.

MR MADASA: Is there someone who is present here at the hearing whom you know who was a member of the ANC Youth League and joined Buthelezi's new unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, how is he supposed to know who knows?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, he knows, he says there is somebody. I want him to tell the Committee the name of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SONTI: There is one.

MR MADASA: Who is he?

MR SONTI: Tusanang, Lucky Pinikele, Mtetwa.

MR MADASA: The members of the ANC Youth League, after they'd separated, why did they leave? Do you know?

MR SONTI: Mr Chair, these members of the ANC Youth League, as I arrived in Moleleki Section 2, besides Mavuso Modishwa, the rest resided in the shacks of the people who left them as a result of being assaulted. Some shacks that were still under construction, they occupied those shacks. The thing that makes me to say that is even their parents I don't know. I knew them after.

MR MADASA: Were they - were these members people who all came from Katlehong or did they come from other areas as well?

MR SONTI: I will say this Chairman, they came from different places like Tokoza and various sections.

MR MADASA: Now was there anything wrong about the fact that they came from different areas?

MR SONTI: I think there was something wrong. Firstly, Katlehong or Katorus at large was surrounded by violence. Even Moleleki Extension 2, people came to occupy some houses in Moleleki Extension 2 after violence erupted. So all that was highly unacceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were these people who came to occupy houses in Moleleki?

MR SONTI: I'm referring to these youth that called themselves ANC Youth League. The youths I'm referring to is ANC Youth League. At night they would show their true colours.

MR MADASA: Now, is it correct that there was also a difference - I'm referring now before you separated with the Youth League, it was also a difference along the fact that the members of the Youth League were people who came from the township, were urban and some of you were originating from the rural, did that cause a division?

MR SONTI: I will agree with you.

MR MADASA: Sorry, sorry, don't explain. If you agree I'm going to ask you a question. Now if that is so, what was perceived as wrong or as undesirable from their point of view about you, those who came from the rural? What is it that they did not like about you?

MR SONTI: I took it that even though I joined the ANC and was fighting for freedom there were some other things that were being pursued by other people like the youth, that we did not partake of and that led to the enmity that transpired thereof.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, I want you to be specific. What was with your conduct that caused them not to like you? What are these things you are referring to, what did you do? How did you behave yourself so that they did not like you?

MR SONTI: There's nothing that we did as far as I am concerned, that would have made them not like us but what we noted was that they were stubborn in things that they were doing. They would not like to be stopped and they also said they cannot be stopped by people who come from rural areas.

MR MADASA: What were they doing?

MR SONTI: As my co-accused has already said, that some activities that transpired in Moleleki Extension 2 were the ones behind them.

MR MADASA: Do you recall any particular incidents wherein you were present that the ANC Youth League members caused trouble?

MR SONTI: I remember very well. Can you relate that to the Committee?

MR SONTI: In June 26th Dingaan Tobela, the boxer, had a fight with Tony Lopez. I remember that fight quite well, it was around 2a.m. After the fight, as we were patrolling from block A right up to block F, when we got to block F after the fight we watched TV, we were watching TV and we did not have electricity in the area. Some people who owned television used batteries because there was no current, electricity.

Soon after that people started to celebrate that Dingaan Tobela won the fight. From that celebration I heard gunshots and suddenly they intensified and I was shot also. I still have the ...[indistinct] the head on that very night, I was shot at the back. The ANC Youth League did not come up front after that incident but people who came to enlist helped me were the SDU defence unit members. I regained my consciousness in hospital.

And secondly, after I was discharged from the hospital on the 12th of July I was still under ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: Sorry, those people who fired shots, do you know who they were?

MR SONTI: I don't know the people who shot.

MR MADASA: Whom did you suspect?

MR SONTI: As I've already said Mr Chairman, we were one with the ANC Youth League. After it withdrew from us that conflict went on and the shots were fired in Moleleki on that day of the fight of Dingaan Tobela.

In my view I thought they were celebrating because Dingaan Tobela won the fight and I thought the followers of Dingaan Tobela were celebrating but after some time I realised that he lost the fight but I was hurt, I was injured that day. I'm not quite too sure as to who shot me because I did not see him in person, I did not quite see him but the people who were supposed to have been there were the members of the ANC Youth League and the defence unit. The self-defence unit did - someone helped me.

MR MADASA: Oh you suspect that Youth League members shot at you, is that what you're saying, yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, he's not suggesting that he suspects that he was shot at by the ANC Youth League, he's not suggesting that.

MR MADASA: Sorry Mr Chair.

Right, is there any other incident where Youth League members caused trouble, that you remember and you were present?

MR SONTI: Besides this incident, as I've already said after I was discharged from hospital, one day, the same day on the 12th of July, Lucky Pinikine Mtetwa together with Vips Motloung and Richard, I don't know his surname but he had one eye and had spectacles or wore spectacles and Maseven were seen or I saw them, they were seven, were running after seven men from block F towards the river.

Amongst those men four of them were shot, three were left alone. Their names are as follows: Jackson, -just let me refer to this, I beg your pardon, Jackson Nkosi, I'm sorry, his car was taken from him and Moses Mkonza and Sepo Mbogani, those were left alone, they were forgiven in other words, was Joseph Mbogani and Henry Kunene and Nuaki number 7055 in block D.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you give us the names again? The persons that were shot at, would that include Jackson Nkosi?

MR SONTI: Jackson Nkosi, his car was also taken from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and?

MR SONTI: Sepo Mbongani.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SONTI: Moses Mkonza, have since died.

CHAIRPERSON: No, wait a minute. They were shot and killed then?

MR SONTI: Yes, they were shot and killed. The ones who were forgiven as are follows: Joseph Mbongani.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SONTI: Henry Kunene and Nuaki of 7055.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's this one?

MR SONTI: Mxega.

CHAIRPERSON: Of number?

MR SONTI: Of number 7055, block D.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR SONTI: Thirdly, still in July as accused number 7, Oscar Motlokwa has explained that ...[indistinct] Majosi who was under SAP, ...[indistinct] and his cousins - his real name ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. Majosi was a member of the South African Communist Party, right?

MR SONTI: That's what I meant to say. He was active at the union at his workplace. His real name, Majosi, is Nkosinati Nxube from 7007, number 7007 and Shlalukwa Zinube and there was one who fled. Shlalukwa Zinube resided in block D just further down the street from my place. As I was still under the doctor's care, I used to limp because I was severely injured.

At night they were chased and they passed by my house. Just before they approached my house there was gun shot that I heard and screaming that I heard. I got out of the house and there was also so much noise, insulting one another outside like: "Get out those weapons". And when I got out of my shack I shouted: "Comrade, comrade, what's happening"? and one responded that: "We've already arrested one who's sustained an injury on the neck and we are chasing this Inkatha member" and he says his uncle who is my opposite neighbour said the uncle has concealed some weapons in his house.

And I asked as to where they found him and they answered and said they found him down the street and he was already bleeding profusely from the neck. And I asked them: "Now what is going to happen, why would you assault some other members right here"? They answered back, the said: "You don't know anything, there are weapons concealed in this uncle's house".

I asked him, the very person, as to where he was found by these people and he answered back and said: "They just arrested me for no apparent reason". There was this one called Vips and Vips said: "Comrade, even though you are so injured, please get inside the house and rest".

There was another one called Maseven, he was also chased. Shaluga was chased up to Majosi's house. It wasn't long and I heard again a gunshot - even though I've already explained that I was still under doctor's care at the time. And firstly when we got to this area, occupying it, each time there will be an attack we will whistle and blow some whistle and we heard the sound of a whistle.

After we heard that all the comrades ran and approached the scene. I couldn't because I was limping due to the injuries that I've sustained. When the comrades arrived it was after - they arrived, when the comrades arrived, I arrived after the incident had taken place. The attackers were already gone and Majosi himself was already taken with Shlalugasi as well.

The next door neighbour's bakkie was taken towards, was driven towards the bridge in block A. When the community of Moleleki Extension 2 arrived, when we heard from Majosi's mum and wife, the one who is Mkosinati Nxube, they asked when they arrived, asked about the money that was collected to buy some equipment. As co-accused number 7 has already said we used to donate some money to buy shovels. We used to call guns as shovels.

Late Majosi pointed towards the wardrobe ...[end of tape 3, day 2 side A - no follow-on sound]. They took all their possessions that the wanted, like jackets, ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: Who are these people who took Majosi's possessions?

MR SONTI: I've already explained Chairman, that it was Lucky Pikinini Mtetwa, Vips Motloung, Maseven and the Richard who's surname I've already forgotten but had one eye and wore spectacles and Meelie or Miles Simelani and Thabo.

MR MADASA: To which organisation did they belong?

MR SONTI: They came out of the self-defence unit that we all belonged to and formed the ANC Youth League that was combined with the new defence unit that was formed by Mr Buthelezi.

MR MOTATA: Just before you proceed, you spoke of Tusanang Lucky Mtetwa, is it the same Tusanang Mr Motlokwa referred to, are those two and the same person?

MR SONTI: Yes, that's the one, Tusanang Rigabe.

CHAIRPERSON: The persons who were involved in the incident on the 12th of July were Vips, Lucky, Richard, Masavelo ...[intervention]

MR SONTI: And Miles or Meelie Simelani.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. And who else?

MR SONTI: About Ntjebe, I'm not too sure his role as to what it was because in all these things he would take part. This car of Jackson Nkosi he was also in it after Nkonza died. And the caravan that they used to occupy, they never used to have a shack they had a caravan which was set alight, that they occupied.

MR MADASA: Whose Ntjebe?

MR SONTI: Ntjebe is Hamilton Ndaba Ndondolo.

CHAIRPERSON: And now where does Tusanang, is it Ntuseng?

MR MALAN: Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: Tusanang come in?

MR SONTI: This Tusanang Chairman, his role I'm not too sure because here in the ANC Youth League he also was there and also in the forefront and the committee member of the self-defence unit that was being formed because of the following reasons ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. Was he involved in these two attacks that you have described?

MR SONTI: No, he wasn't there.

MR MADASA: Were you present at the march which was led by Hani?

MR SONTI: Please repeat your question. There were so many marches, which one are you referring to?

MR MADASA: Where there was a demand for the release of prisoners.

MR SONTI: Yes, I was there Sir.

MR MADASA: Did members of the ANC Youth League do anything at that march?

MR SONTI: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: What did they do?

MR SONTI: We went as a self-defence unit of Kathoras, Katlehong, Tokoza and Vosloorus, accompanying Chris Hani going to Motabe. A train was organised for us and we boarded the train at Katlehong station via Germiston to Daveyton station.

As we were going to the march, I mean taking the memorandum, the arrested ones who were arrested for political reasons were to be released. Our ANC Youth League members came back with stolen goods, things like televisions, computers, videos and things like money.

When we came back comrades were shot as there was the ANC Youth League and the self-defence unit and the community in general, the members of which were the members of the ANC and the victims as a result of the Youth League.

MR MADASA: Did you confront the members of the - those people who had items with them? Did you confront the members of the ANC Youth League who brought items with them?

MR SONTI: Yes, we did ask them as I am sure that it is not the movement's policy to take but there is this word that says, as we were under oppression of the previous regime that was sabotaged, yes, there is also this insult that says you come from the rural areas and you want to be in charge of the townships.

MR MADASA: Now do you know Bulelwa personally?

MR SONTI: Yes, I knew Bulelwa Ziwane Z-I-W-A-N-E.

MR MADASA: To which organisation did she belong?

MR SONTI: Bulelwa according to my knowledge was an ANC member, ANC Women's League and she was also involved in the train sectors, also involved in the street committee in block F.

MR MADASA: Did you have a relationship with her as SDU's?

MR SONTI: Would you please repeat your question.

MR MADASA: Did you have a relationship with her as a SDU's?

MR SONTI: Yes, there was a relationship between ourselves and Bulelwa in particular, especially herself as female Xhosa speaking apart from herself being a Xhosa woman.

MR MADASA: Did you organisational relationship with her as SDU's?

MR SONTI: Yes, I would like to say that Sir, there was this relationship.

MR MADASA: How was the relationship between you and her?

MR SONTI: As I have already explained Sir, this relationship between the self-defence unit members and Bulelwa - and when we wanted to talk to the community the civic used to be our mouth piece when it comes to problems that we encountered and when we were in short of certain things like Ntelezi they used to be our mouth piece, Bulelwa in particular.

When it comes to the collection of money for the shovels and the buying thereof, she was part and parcel of the community and the people in particular who collected those monies in block F.

MR MADASA: But Bulelwa at the same time had a relationship with Buthelezi, is that so?

MR SONTI: I don't understand that quite well Sir, that relationship. There may have been, there may have not been but there's one thing in one block and that is block F.

MR MADASA: Now, did you meet Bulelwa on the day before she died?

MR SONTI: Bulelwa we used together from Moleleki Extension 2 to catch a train at Natalspruit station in morning and in the evening.

MR MADASA: Did you meet her on the day before she died?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her on the 6th of December, I think it is, is that right?

MR SONTI: Yes, I did see her.

MR MADASA: Where?

MR SONTI: Bulelwa was travelling in block D, travelling from her relatives whom I did not know at that time who used to stay in block D.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue what happened?

MR SONTI: As I have already explained Sir, that Bulelwa used to be my companion as we were travelling in a taxi to the station and coming back by train. She was a daily companion. As we have asked for money at block F to buy these shovels, which money was collected by herself, days before that there was problems pertaining to the collection of the money. The money did not get ultimately to the defence unit, what we did - it transpires it was taken by Mr Mokwena if I'm not mistaken, who stays in 8963 in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still telling us about the meeting you had with Bulelwa on the 6th of December 1993?

MR SONTI: Yes, I'm coming to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, tell us about that.

MR SONTI: When we met Bulelwa she said: "Mkaia" as we used to call each other, she wanted to know if the money was coming in block F as we had asked for money in block F.

She asked as to whether the money had been received which money we had already collected and gave to someone. She wanted to know whether we had already received the money and I indicated that we have not yet received the money, we were walking together. She then explained that this money had been collected long ago but it transpired that the SDU that was being formed in block F was keeping it.

I then asked if there would be two defence units in block F and she indicated that that was also her question. It was concluded that because she was a woman she should just remain silent. And when she explained she found it strange that the money that was donated by block F was asked by the existing defence unit.

It was therefore strange that the money had not reached that self-defence unit and she then went on to say I must be careful because in block F it is said I am the one who doesn't want the youth to do their things in Moleleki Extension 2.

"And therefore I am warning you myself, being Bulelwa, do not - she said: "I am warning you that in these meetings that are held frequently in Moleleki Extension 2, you should not speak out because you disturb the youth of Moleleki Extension 2 and they are therefore not able to do what they want to do".

MR MADASA: Yes, did you then separate or did anything happen to her?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you eventually - you were walking together, is that right?

MR SONTI: She was walking with a certain person called Binkie, even though I don't know her surname. There were three of us. Yes, I was there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you eventually go to your house? Did you eventually go to your house and she proceeded to her house?

MR SONTI: Yes, that is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the last time you saw her alive?

MR SONTI: Yes, that was the last day I saw her.

MR MADASA: On the day preceding the massacre, are you aware of any events that occurred which led to the massacre on the following day?

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you simply ask him the question: "Do you know what led to the massacre"? Isn't that what you want to find out?

Mr Sonti, we know that on the 7th of December 1993 approximately 8 persons were shot at and killed in the veld somewhere in Katlehong, you know that?

MR SONTI: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why those people were killed?

Is that the question you want to ask?

MR SONTI: Yes, I know Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you tell us?

MR SONTI: I think 15 minutes must have lapsed and we heard a whistle being blown and this whistle blow was an indication that something was wrong as the community of Moleleki Extension 2 knew that when such a whistle blows there was trouble.

We rushed to the scene in block F, just a distance from Bulelwa's place. She was already lying on the street at which place we found Mr Mkwena, to whom I have already referred and Mr Buthelezi, about whom we have spoken and the block F community.

We asked what the problem was and people started explaining that they saw three men, one of whom was wearing a white T-shirt. Those were said to be the people who started the problem. And they said to the community that now that she is dead a request was made Sepo Baloi to try and find the Red Cross to come and pick up the woman's corpse.

He was accompanied by comrade Ntjebe Ndondolo to notify zone 5 as well so that zone 5 and Moleleki Extension 2 was an earlier place I think, to notify them that something had already gone wrong. There was a meeting prior to that in the previous day on the 5th of December which meeting was convened in block F.

After rumours that Amaxhosa in Katorus wanted to lead, they must start with Moleleki Extension 2 to chase them out of Katorus. I became part of certain comrades in the organisation in the group to be part of that meeting. They were not talking about block F. Meetings were held on Sundays ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: Sorry, who called that meeting you are referring to on the 5th of December?

MR SONTI: I would like to say Mr Chair, as I have already explained that block F was already not part of these other blocks in the formation of its own structure. On that very Sunday on which we attended the meeting, that is when this was to be discussed.

MR MADASA: Do you know who had called that meeting?

MR SONTI: I remember the meetings chairman because the entire block F community had attended the meeting. Myself and my companion, Ntjebe Ndondolo and William and Miagetsi Ramabele and Albert Moloi of block F were members of the self-defence unit that existed at that time.

The person who was chairing the meeting was George Mokwena of 8552 block E where this was this other Mokwena, there's many Mokwena's in that area, and Mr Buthelezi. And many other comrades, some of whom are here applying for amnesty, came from block F.

MR MADASA: What was resolved at that meeting?

MR SONTI: Mr Chairman, previously pamphlets were distributed indicating to a meeting to be attended at the end of the week and in that particular meeting I was not called with these other three people, myself being the fourth one but because of rumours we went to block F.

When we arrived before the meeting commenced we were withdrawn by the person who was chairing the meeting, whose name I have already mentioned as George Mokwena of 8552 block E. What he said, I would like it to be interpreted in English. He was standing on a rock: "Comrades and compatriots, can we discuss our problems here at block F whilst there are some observers".

He made certain people raise their hands. As they raised their hands ...[indistinct] they opposed the three that was called observers. Myself, Ramabele, Ntjebe were requested to say because we do not belong in block F we are then therefore requested to be released. And there was ...[indistinct] between this small group and the rest, those of block F. This small group is the one that said we may not. Most of the people were happy about the reason of our coming and it was indicated that we cannot discuss our problems in block F when there were people from other blocks in the meeting.

The youth that was there at the time, about 500 metres away from where the meeting was being held had their own meeting where there were girls, younger girls. I was requested to leave and other people were not happy about the idea, wondering if they know what reason brought us there.

One person whom I listened very carefully was Mr Buthelezi who said: "People who do not stay in block F must leave and attend their own meetings in their respective blocks". Mr Moloi stayed behind in the meeting as he was part of block F under the self-defence unit in that area of Moleleki Extension 2, 1993.

In the evening of that very same day on Sunday the 5th we had ...[indistinct] members of the self-defence unit in zone 5. It had already been heard and understood that there was going to be a confrontation between people in Extension 2 and the youth. We decided on time and by the time we left Mr Moloi we requested him to make the necessary announcement notifying the necessary people that we wanted to be brought together with the ANC Youth Members.

We decided on 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock at the usual meeting place in Moleleki Extension 2. If I am not mistaken it is called: "People's Park". That's where we used to meet people from A,B,C,D,E,F where problems effecting that community were discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: The confrontation that was expected, was that going to be between block F, residents on the one hand and blocks A,B,C,D and E on the other hand? Is that how the - whether the groups which were going to be involved in the conflict.

MR SONTI: Would you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I gather from you that at that stage it was known that there was going to be a confrontation between the ANC Youth League and the SDU, is that how you understood the position?

MR SONTI: Yes, I want to say that Sir, because in the first instance the members that I had already referred to, those of the ANC Youth League ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may continue.

MR MAPOMA: Did that meeting materialise, the one which was called between the ANC Youth League and the SDU to discuss the anticipated trouble?

MR SONTI: The meeting did not materialise. It did not continue because Mr Mokwena arrived, who stays in block F in 8963 and Mr Ndlovo whose name I don't know of 8961, block F. They came up with this information sent by the ANC Youth League to come and apologise. They had an urgent meeting to attend on that very same day.

The self-defence unit therefore went to wait until they were contacted by the Youth League. Zone 5 had already arrived for the meeting at The People's Park. I rushed to the place to inform members of the self-defence unit together with the Committee that was in zone 5, notifying them that the Youth is apologising.

MR MAPOMA: What did you make of this youth apology? Did you think it was genuine or what did you think about it?

MR SONTI: I think they were not genuine because they did not know what we were going to discuss. Maybe even though they may have known they may have already planned. Their apology was just a hasty thing that was happening because they had already planned for something else.

CHAIRPERSON: This meeting was scheduled for the 5th of December, was it?

MR SONTI: Yes, that is so.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, carry on. And then?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's me just remind you of what you were busy with. You were describing to us the events surrounding the death of Bulelwa. Sepo Baloi had been requested to go and seek assistance from the Red Cross for the transportation of Bulelwa's corpse. That's where you were.

MR SONTI: Yes, it's like that. As I have already explain, Mr Mokwena came with Mr Ndlovo, sent by the youth to come and apologise, that they have an urgent meeting that they had to attend at the time that we had agreed upon. We had to wait for their response. Before Mr Mokwena arrived there seemed to be a whistle sound in block F.

We rushed to check and when we arrived there there were two girls blowing the whistle saying: "Rush, we have been called by the self-defence unit". If I am not mistaken these two girls, one of them is Absemia Mbekwesi and the other one is known as Nkosi. These are the people who were blowing the whistle. When we arrived at the scene we wanted to know what went wrong and they said this is how we call the members of the Youth League. We have an urgent meeting that we are going to hold together with the defence unit.

We were surprised to see girls because we did not see girls on the previous occasions. I did see them during the day, they were the people who were holding a meeting 500 away in block F. They did not come as I have already explained. What happened was that Mr Mokwena himself arrived and Mr Ndlovo.

Mr Sepo Baloi, Ndondolo went for about - they went for about 8 metres, minutes, after they had left for those minutes together with this other guy in whose car they were to travel, it was indicated that people who owned cars should help when there is trouble even if they were not patrolling themselves but if there is a problem or an emergency they should please help and assist.

He agreed, he took Ndaba into his car, Ndondolo and Sepo Baloi. They left and they were gone for about 8 minutes or so and we then heard a gun fire in block A or block C to block B. Those places follow each other in that pattern. We were standing there as the self-defence unit and the community of Moleleki Extension 2 as Bulelwa's corpse was lying there.

The night went on without them coming back, that is Ntjebe and Sepo Baloi. As time went on almost at dawn, still they had not come back. The comrades who were to go to work were released to go and sleep. I rushed with comrade accused number 7 who is apply for amnesty, that is Oscar Motlokwa, to go to block E and I went to block D.

On getting into my blankets, it was round about 2 o'clock if I'm not mistaken or after 2. I heard another gun fire and a whistle was blown, the very same whistle that I have already spoke about as a sign indicating an emergency. As I was putting my shoes on there was a knock on the door, that was comrade accused number 7, Oscar: "Comrade I have come to inform you that the youth are burning Blanko".

We rushed past the comrades who were standing guard, watching over Bulelwa's corpse. We rushed to comrade Blanko's place. I just want to explain something. Blanko's real name is Malusi Jackson Kiyana. Certain community members stayed behind at Bulelwa's corpse, some rushed to the place where the shack was burning.

As we were extinguishing the fire at Mr Blanko's place or Mr Kiyana ...[intervention]

MR MAPOMA: Is that, whose ID is that? Whose ID is that in your hands?

MR SONTI: Blanko's. This ID belongs to Blanko, Kiyana, K-I-Y-A-N-A.

MR MAPOMA: Do you want to show it to the Committee? Can you pass it? With your permission Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you first went to the spot where you had left Bulelwa's corpse, right?

MR SONTI: We went there with comrade Oscar who is the one that brought the message to me that the whistle is blowing, from which direction and where we should go.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go there?

MR SONTI: Yes, we did go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any persons there when you arrived?

MR SONTI: Yes, there were other people who were standing guard there at the corpse and the other defence unit members had already gone to some other place at Blanko's house trying to extinguish the fire.

CHAIRPERSON: So the other members of the SDU had already left for Blanko's house?

MR SONTI: Yes. When we got to block F as I was coming from block D, we got there when they just left rushing to the scene as the whistle had indicated that they should.

We extinguished the fire, we did manage to after a long time and after a long struggle. We found Blanko leaning against the wall of his shack outside. Outside there were AK47 bullets and 9mm ammunition that was used and some were not used and we also got this pass book,

ID and the other part of his trouser and also cartridges outside.

As the person who owned or who heard the tuck shop, things like tinned stuff, cigarettes and paraffin, tinned stuff were stolen already. Paraffin was used to douse the house and they set the house alight. After we managed to extinguish the fire we asked as to what was happening, why was this done. As Comrade Oscar had already explained people who managed to come and show up were Tusanang or Tusang Rigarde ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. Oscar said the people that he managed to identify, is that right?

MR SONTI: That's correct. It was Tusang Rigarde and Vips Motloung, the others did not show up or did not come.

MR MAPOMA: Did you identify ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. He did not say: "the other people did not come", what he said was that he could not identify the others, is that what you say? Did you say people you saw there were Tusang and Vips?

MR SONTI: What I would like - the other people, Oscar did not know them so he couldn't identify them. As I've already explained the ones that he was sure of was Tusanang and Vips and the others he did not know, in other words there were not only two people who were present there.

After the fire was extinguished we passed Bulelwa's corpse and we reported to the community which was present and other members of the SD unit that surrounded the corpse that Blanko was already burnt and died. The people who were seen were comrade Oscar and Vips and Tusang or Tusanang.

We got here before Ntjebe, Ntjebe was not seen yet with comrade Sepo Baloi. We therefore thought to go there on our own to see the Red Cross as it was dawn then. In the morning actually, after 3a.m. we left other comrades next to the corpse of Bulelwa. At comrade Blanko's house the door was closed and the neighbours were there sitting outside.

As we were between block B and block C we just heard gunfire Mr Chairman. There was this word that was saying: "Here are these dogs, attack gentlemen or attack gents". As the comrade has already explained that he was the one firing the gunshots - who heard the gunshots, the gun.

There was a shack who is not existing now for three weeks. In 1993 there was a shoe repairer at that shack repairing shoes and they got out of that shack, they ran down the road towards the farm. We chased them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You were passing between blocks C and D? MR SONTI: That was the route and the route was between block C and block D.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[No English translation]

MR SONTI: That is true. They were running away and they got off from the shack running away, shooting at the same time, shooting at us.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] running away, were they running away from you or coming to you shooting, what were they doing exactly?

MR SONTI: From what I think I'm trying to say even though the shack was too small, the one who saw us first and being the one who gave them the sign first, who said: "Here are these dogs, shoot", they ran away from us giving themselves a chance to get out of the shack. I don't know whether I'm answering you well.

We tried to shout at them, saying: "Calm down, we would like to talk to you" and they said: "There is nothing we can talk to you about because you want to own our location, today is today.

We tried to scream. Even though it was dark at dawn and we tried to chase them, we were running after them and we tried to get them to stop so we can talk to them sense and they refused, they kept saying: "Today is today". We could not get hold of them.

What happened instead, as the grass was long, towards the last line of block C in the shacks - today it's just an open place, they were going, approaching towards those structures of the farm and we sat there, we sat down.

After - it was quite, after some time we saw the third one coming out of the direction that they ran to. I would like to think that it was a carton of cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes and tinned stuff and this tinned stuff were inside the hardboard and they were in six packs each. I don't know how many cigarettes or boxes of cigarettes were in there.

There was a bottle which had a piece of fabric in it and soil with petrol or mixed with petrol in it, in a nip bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you watching all this from where you were standing?

MR SONTI: We saw them coming with those things from the direction which we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. From where you were sitting you could see that they had a bottle and that inside that bottle was petrol and some sand?

MR SONTI: Understand this Mr Chairman, I'm saying the third one came out from the direction which they ran to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that. What I'm asking you is, you were - these people ran into the tall grass that you have described, right?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter three people emerged from where the others had disappeared into, carrying cartons of cigarettes and then there was a bottle. Now all I want to know is, from where you were standing or sitting could you see that the bottle had petrol inside and that there was sand? Could you see that from where you were standing?

MR SONTI: Let me do this Mr Chairman. We did not know whether there was soil inside that bottle, all that I'm describing to you and telling to you are things that we discovered when we got to Bulelwa's corpse showing us the things that they discovered from their possessions that they had when we met there. They had those things in their hands. I don't know whether I'm answering you or ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] these people? As they came towards you, you caught them and then you discovered these items?

MR SONTI: That's what I'm trying to say because in the first place, when we were sitting down they could not see us because the grass was tall. They got out of the grass since they were lying down there and we were also lying on the other side of the grass, they came to us. When they came to us they were shocked to discover that we were also there. Now they had those things that I'd already described to you, with the bottle.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only managed to see what they had in their possession once you had captured them, right?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] as they were approaching because they were far from you?

MR SONTI: We could see them but we could not see as to what they had in their hands, we only discovered that when they were right in front of us.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there? It was you and Oscar?

MR SONTI: Those that I still remember, it's myself and Mr Motlokwa. I cannot remember the others as there were many of us, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot recall who they are?

MR SONTI: ...[No English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were with.

MR SONTI: Mr Chairman, as I have pointed out, there were those who were looking after Bulelwa's corpse ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm asking you is, you were chasing the persons who ran into the tall grass. Now, I want to know who was with you? You've mentioned Mr Motlokwa, can you remember who else was present in your group that chased the persons who ran into the tall grass?

MR SONTI: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember. I don't doubt that among the people with whom I was arrested I cannot remember who exactly remained behind with Bulelwa's corpse and who came along with me. In other words, the one that I remember very well is comrade Oscar.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the position then that when these people disappeared into the tall grass you remained outside waiting for them to emerge at some point?

MR SONTI: As I have already explained Chairman, block C, the place at which we stood was a vast area of shacks where we could build up to. From that point onwards there was an old house that had been occupied by a farmer some years ago and therefore there was this tall grass.

CHAIRPERSON: We know, we've heard you say that. All I'm trying to find out from you is, when they disappeared, did you wait for them outside the grass?

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, if you can stop reading and listen to the question you would be able to answer it because you are concentrating on reading rather than listening to the question. Please do that, do us a favour.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you chased these persons and they disappeared into the tall grass. You did not go into that area did you, you waited outside?

MR SONTI: Not all of us got into the grass with them Sir. We waited for about five minutes after the gunshots ceased. We were just sitting down, we could not even see them. They too could not see us.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] emerging from the grass?

MR SONTI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, since you could not remember the others but remembering comrade Motlokwa, do you have an estimation of the people who were with you, the comrades who were with you? Approximately how many of you were there giving chase to these people who were running away from you?

MR SONTI: Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken I think we were about 8 because even though we had divided ourselves to say others should wait at the corpse of Bulelwa and other neighbours of ...[inaudible] were in block E, what I am saying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] there were three of them, do you know what their names are?

MR SONTI: It was Tibang, he was one of them, Tibang, Mokwena. Another one I cannot be sure because Buthelezi - I cannot differentiate the two of them. I don't know which one is the son and which one is the father but one of them is indeed the one and I don't know the other one.

MR MALAN: ...[inaudible] was either the father or the son and you couldn't see whether it was the father or the son, or what are you saying?

MR SONTI: I'm saying there was the one who was called Thokozani Buthelezi, I cannot remember which one was which. I don't know which one was the son, I think it was the son that we found called Buthelezi but I cannot be sure which one was the son, which one was which. I don't know whether you get me well.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know the third one?

MR SONTI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And these persons had some cigarettes, some cartons of cigarettes and the tinned stuff, the bottle with sand and petrol. Is that how they make the petrol bomb?

MR SONTI: I would like to say so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You captured these persons?

MR SONTI: Yes, we did capture them Sir, we took them to the community in block F where there was the first corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SONTI: Under way Sir, as we had captured them, the one that I know was Charles, I mean Motibang. His father was a person whom I knew very well before because as I arrived in Moleleki Extension 2 I used to know him from the previous meetings that we addressed there.

I was surprised when I saw him carrying belongings of Giana, things that belonged to Giana and that bottle. As they had started accusing each other on the way, saying Tusanang is the one who landed them in trouble. By that time we had not seen Tusanang and everything that was happening in Moleleki Extension 2.

As the ANC Youth League was under the ANC umbrella or the civic and these cases, the people that I had spoken about. As I have explained, in these instances of these dead people, as we had this violence, the ANC Youth League and as they were people who were in Moleleki Extension 2 in incidents that occurred in Moleleki Extension 2 they were not there when a person is dead. They would not come to cram around the dead person. That gave me - it gives me assurance that these cases that I have spoken about came as a result of them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to where the community had gathered in and around a spot where Bulelwa's body was found and you've told us that these persons that you had captured had began accusing one another, saying that Tusanang was responsible. Yes, proceed.

MR SONTI: Yes, it is so. On arrival Buthelezi, I think he is the son, as he was captured by myself holding him with the left arm he had a belt on the upper arms and when I asked who he was he said he is Buthelezi's son. I did not that that very same Buthelezi was the one in block F or somebody else or because they are so many Buthelezi's in Gauteng I did not know which Buthelezi he was talking about.

He said: "Our father is to blame" and they were blaming each other on the way. And I said to them: "My boys, because we are going to the community you will explain the rest when we get there". Indeed we arrived and we produced them to the community and we then left immediately. We did not arrive at the Red Cross that we were going to and Ntjebe himself did not show up together with Sepo Baloi ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] to them, to the community, did you leave them with the community or did you go with them, the captured?

MR SONTI: We left them with the community under the supervision of our comrades belonging to the self-defence unit together with the shack community.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Bulelwa's body was found?

MR SONTI: Yes, the corpse was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - were these persons then put in one of the shacks?

MR SONTI: In this shack ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were put in a shack whilst you were there?

MR SONTI: Yes, I know. We went on our way to try and get hold of the Red Cross, summoned help now that we had two corpses. When we were at A Tusanang showed up from the B direction. He was wearing an overall and the sleeve on the left hand was loose and he was carrying an AK47.

If I am not mistaken there were three of those that we caught. I did not know the two and because we were on our way to the Red Cross it was not easy then because here are these people, they come from block B rushing through, running away to block A carrying these guns and others were carrying these looted things from the Spaza shop, Blanko's Spaza shop.

Myself being a person who was with Tusanang indicated that this is exactly what we were talking about, Tusanang wanted to beat him up. According to my knowledge Tusanang stayed in block C and to be found in that place in block A coming from block B became something very strange, very strange.

What I'm trying to say here, we escorted them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who was with you when you came across Tusanang and the to others?

MR SONTI: I was with comrade William Ramabele, called Sugar. We escorted them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] okay. You had gone to look for assistance in view of the two dead persons namely Bulelwa and Blanko.

MR SONTI: That's correct. Sir, we finally got to block F and when we got there there were now six of them and comrade Ramabele Miageti suggested that they join the other three and I refused with reference to Tusanang because these three that we first apprehended and the other three, I felt that because the community was still there, we wanted an explanation as to what the origin of this is and where it is headed.

I refused to let Tusanang be one of those who are taken into the shack. Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part of the people in the shack. ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: You say Tusanang was accusing Ramabele, did you say that?

MR SONTI: I am saying Tusanang, that is - and the three that we caught earlier on protected him. Ramabele wanted Tusanang to be part and join the others who were locked up in the shack and I refused. We wanted an explanation because the community was there and there was Bulelwa's corpse there as well. We wanted him to explain what was happening, what went wrong.

I did not agree to hand Tusanang over to the other group in the shack so that he could explain to the community. We went on trying to get help from the Red Cross ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: Sorry, what did you do with Tusanang, did you leave him?

MR SONTI: We left him there with the community and as we went - it was now daylight, we asked for a kombi. One person whom I remember at the rank in Moleleki Extension 2 - during those days it was difficult for taxis to operate, I still remember Bennet Mnyaka Ndaba who is also applying for amnesty and Ramambele. Those I still remember very well.

We started at comrade Manyala's place. Before we went for the kombi at the rank we saw Sepo Baloi coming alone without Ntjebe together with whom sent to someone for help the previous night. When we asked Sepo as to whether Bulelwa's corpse was still lying there, what was wrong? It was indicated that they were shot, Ntjebe himself and the owner of the car.

And you were shot, what happened next? Each one of them fled, I don't know where Ntjebe is. Sepo is a person with him, I don't know whether it was mud or soil in his hair and we said: "There then is the corpse and we also have the second one, Blanko, in block A. We are now rushing to comrade Manyala's together with the Red Cross and with the Red Cross rather.

When we arrived at Kumalo value where Manyala used to stay we saw four of these boys. They may have been members of the ANC Youth League. As we were getting out of the kombi they fled. The one that I caught, if I still remember very well, was Miles or Millie Simelane, the other one was Izak Mgati.

Vips was one of the four, he is the one who fled. I cannot remember the other one, the third one. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SONTI: Izak Magati. On arrival they did not want to listen what Manyala was saying, they just fled. Miles, as I caught him, had a packet of cigarettes, a carton of cigarettes and a smaller piston, a brown one. I don't know whether it's 2.2 or something else.

CHAIRPERSON: Miles, did he have a carton or a packet of cigarettes?

MR SONTI: He had a carton and a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SONTI: And Vips, as he was running, fleeing, jumping fences in Seloma View, he just disappeared that way. He too had a pistol he once shot, shooting as he was fleeing. Ntjebe was there as well and it transpired he left at comrade Manyala's. In their explanation during the shoot-out he fled and slept at Manyala's place.

We then went on to Moleleki Extension 2, escorting Miles and Izak. On the way I shouted saying: a dog or a person that had a dog that was patrolling the previous night must come to block F. There was a certain lady that we did not know. We were at block A now on our way to Extension 2 Moleleki. This lay was following us from behind, coming from A. I didn't know her but there was certainly a lady who was following us. Everybody was moving towards block F.

When we got to block F, myself, Izak and Miles. When we got there Tusanang was not there. We don't know how he left. We don't know whether he gave any information to the community, we did not get to know that.

Miles and Izak joined these other five and they became eight ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were they still - the five, were they in the shack when you arrived?

MR SONTI: Yes, they were. When we arrived there escorting Izak and Miles, he had wrapped up a bandage on his arm. When they got into the shack, the one whom we thought is Buthelezi's son, Buthelezi was standing behind me and the son was saying: "Dad, please explain to these people that you are the ones who were sending us".

I then asked Buthelezi as to whether that was his son and he said: "Yes", and we indicated what they did and I said it's been a long time that this one has been saying: you are the ones that sent them to do things. These are the bands that we have, they are the ones who went looking for the bands for us when these happened.

I have a picture in my mind, because in most instances when we were to go to a rally or a march or a funeral there used to be a particular person who would use certain medicine on us. I had such an idea, even though I didn't see them all. They were wearing these bands and I began to understand that everything else was planned thoroughly. Here is a son saying: "Dad, speak out, we are in trouble because of you".

As we were listening to that a kombi arrived with Vips. There was also Nkosikona Majola, comrade Manyana, Sandile Nchingolo sometimes.

MR MOTATA: Could you repeat the names you have just said, Vips and - say them slowly.

MR SONTI: Vips arrived with these other comrades that I have just mentioned, Nkosikona Majola and Sandile Nchingolo Manyala and Boys Nxuba. Vips did not get out of the kombi and as he stayed in there he peeped through the window, calling, looking at people who were involved in this conflict.

He looked for Tusanang and he called Buthelezi. He also called Buthelezi, the one I have already spoken of 8963, if I am not mistaken ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] mention?

MR SONTI: He spoke about the very same Buthelezi that we are talking about here and Mr Mokwena of 8963 in block F and Msala of block C. He also called Sepo Baloi. He was trying to get out of the kombi when the driver of the kombi drove back with him. I don't know whether he was really calling, calling the community in block A to F.

Those were six blocks that you could find in block F. These people must have heard themselves what he was saying because I could not understand. Then came the Red Cross. I don't know who brought this Red Cross because the people whom we had sent did not come with it.

They collected the cartridges of a 9mm pistol that was used to murder Bulelwa. They picked up those that had been used and those unused together with the corpse and we got information that also in block E there is also another one, that body of Jackson Kiane ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, let me just remind you that the question that you are answering is: why were the persons killed on the 7th, that's the question that your counsel asked you.

MR SONTI: Mr Chairman, I had no part in the death of these people, those who were killed. One part that I had was to find them in the places at which we found them so that they were brought together. In other words I did not murder, I don't have a corpse.

I think all those who did this, it is because of the two incidents, the death of Bulelwa and Blanko even though I think that before there was this conflict there was an attempt to try and reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself not kill anyone?

MR SONTI: Yes Sir, I do not have any murder on my side.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you say that you believe that the persons were killed because of the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR SONTI: Yes, I want to say that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

MR SONTI: Firstly, in the first instance when we found the first one, the first three that is, they looked for Tusanang - and comrade called Tusanang and Vips and I thought that all of these people that were finding, being called by these very same or found by these very same people, this might be the truth.

There was not a single one - or I saw the internal stability unit. They spoke about the very same people with whom they were together, that is why I am sure about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you saying that the people that you had captured told you that the persons who had killed these two persons were the ones that you had captured?

MR SONTI: On accusing one another, as I have pointed out, their conflict or differences started on the way as we were going to block F to the community, they meant to beat each other. Tusanang was not happy why he was said to be part of this.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct]

MR SONTI: They were saying: "You are the ones, the one who was organising this and Buthelezi was also saying: "It is Dad " because in the first instance he showed us something that he had on his arm.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SONTI: The incident that occurred on the 6th of Bulelwa and Blanko ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Were they saying that Buthelezi was responsible for the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR SONTI: What I'm saying Sir is, even though he was the one behind the self-defence unit I think they were saying: "Because of all this or because of your view about us, it's the one that led us into trouble". Vips and Tusanang were the ones who actually killed Blanko with Bulelwa. Now they were accusing themselves as we were going with them to block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you who killed Bulelwa?

MR SONTI: They said it was Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say who else was there?

MR SONTI: Even though I have already said that there were many of them, some of them as far as I am concerned, I think they were just supporting at Moleleki Extension 2 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking you to give us your opinion as to why the others were there, I'm simply asking you, did they tell you who else had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa? The first ...[indistinct] they gave you was Tusanang.

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else?

MR SONTI: And Vips Motloung. When I said there was Vips turning in a kombi, he was also shouting and saying: people were forming this self-defence unit. The self-defence unit was formed in block F, the one that people ...[indistinct] themselves to form and Vips was calling the people I've already made mention of, Msala and Mr Mokwena and Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say these people had done? Did they say what these people had done?

MR SONTI: I said, what we are about today was formed in block F. The people behind all what we are today about, are the ones that Vips was calling their names when the kombi was taking a u-turn. There was Buthelezi's son also saying from his side that: "Father, talk out, you are the one who was saying we should kill these people".

As we were still listening to what the boy was saying, shouting at his father, Vips in the kombi that he never alighted from, peeped from the window as the kombi was driving off and calling the names of the people that I've already made mention of.

CHAIRPERSON: But, did he say that the names that he was calling were the names of individuals who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa?

MR SONTI: The people he was calling are the people who were forming the new self-defence in Moleleki, block F. Did the persons that you had captured tell you who had killed Blanko?

MR SONTI: Yes, they told us.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did they say killed Blanko?

MR SONTI: They said it was Tusanang and even in Bulelwa's case they said it was Tusanang still.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SONTI: ...[No English translation]

MR MALAN: Can we just have that translation?

MR SONTI: We went to the corpse of Bulelwa and Blanko after the kombi drove off and the hearse came and they loaded the corpse in the hearse. I'm forgetting something. At the time when we left Kumalo Valley going with Miles and Izak, at the bridge in block A we met accused number 2, Mr Malcolmess ...[indistinct] coming from work. He was at work in a night shift in Alrode Brewery.

He was walking from the hospital from Moleleki Extension 2. He found us there at the bridge escorting Miles and Izak going to block F. When we arrived where the corpse of Bulelwa was there were about five, there were five casspirs and the hearse was also there and the corpse of comrade Blanko was taken and the cartridges were also picked from the ground.

As far as I was concerned there was nothing that had happened. There were some others who were behind this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please Mr Sonti, thank you, we've heard that.

Is there any other matter that you want to canvass with Mr Sonti?

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, when the victims were removed from the shack to the open field, were you still there?

MR SONTI: I wasn't there.

MR MADASA: When you left the scene, what was happening?

MR SONTI: I was still explaining. After the corpse of Blanko and Bulelwa, there was another girl who used to work at his tuckshop by the name of Nxtesi who came from where Blanko came from or was born, Nxobo. That is the one girl I said to that she should escort me to look for Blanko's mum who came from Ramkunupe. Blanko' mother ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] to look for Blanko's relatives, is that so?

MR SONTI: Yes, that is so.

MR MADASA: Now, did you go back to the scene again?

MR SONTI: I was still explaining Sir. As the last corpse of Blanko was taken to the mortuary, the community of Moleleki Extension 2 had a desire to go and see all the people who were behind this incident, who committed this act. That was also my wish because I wanted them to see them because there wasn't anyone that we knew exactly as to whose child could be and so forth.

As I had already said before, when we were coming from block A saying the person who had a dog who patrolled the previous night should come forth and identify in block F. And I even said the name when I was with this girl Nxtesi, that we should go to block F and see but no-one responded as to who's mother that could be or I'm this mother and this is my child. No-one responded in that regard.

And the girl by the name of Nxtesi who was working at Blanko's tuck shop - there was another lady in block E who had taken some goods on credit to the amount or R40 from the tuck shop, and we got into a taxi with this girl to go and look or to go to Ramkunupe West ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] that people who were children amongst the victims should go to block F to identify and this was also your wish but none responded? ...[inaudible] was this women who owed Blanko R40, right?

MR SONTI: This lady was Blanko's neighbour.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] go back to the scene where the community was or to block F, did you go back?

MR SONTI: When I was calling, saying people should head to block F to identify, no-one responded. There was Mr Ramabele there, that I've already said he was Miagetsi, said they should not even be shown those people or given an opportunity to identify.

So people never responded and it was during the day. As I've already said, no-one responded in that regard. I was still going to look or search for Blanko's family to come and see the perpetrators or the people who have done this act.

MR MADASA: Do you know what transpired with regard to the victims who were at the shack? You say you did not go there.

MR SONTI: Yes, I did not go there.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] any stage?

MR SONTI: Not at any stage. No, I did not see them.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] come back with Blanko's relative? Did you find Blanko's relative?

MR SONTI: Listen, let me explain. I said we were going with this girl, we did not find him. He was at work and it was on Tuesday, on the 7th. We did not find Nelson and this girl, because she stayed in that section, did not come back with me, I came back alone.

As I was coming back I got Malcolmess Ngaam(?) who is applying for amnesty, at the taxi rank. I found him there with Nbele who was also there in the organisation at the time. When I got there I asked them as to where the majority of the SDU members were and Malcolmess Ngaam and Nbele said they went towards the veld.

I rushed to where Bulelwa used to stay. I got quite a number of women standing outside and Bulelwa's brother as well was there. His face was familiar to me but I did not know at the time that he was Bulelwa's brother and Bulelwa's husband, by the name of Xinga.

When I got there, even though it was my first time to see Bulelwa's brother, it was me who explained or gave them the report how we parted with Bulelwa, explained to the women who were sitting inside and outside of Bulelwa's shack. I explained how we last saw each other and what happened.

The husband was not there previously ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] but is all this - does this have any relevance to this matter?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, you will appreciate my problem, it hasn't but I find it difficult to guide the applicant.

Mr Sonti, on page 35 of the bundle ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which page number?

MR MADASA: Page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: 35, yes?

MR MADASA: In your application you state that, at paragraph 9, you ask for amnesty in respect of 9(a) 1, the offence being murder but now you've told the Committee that you are not responsible for any dead person. Now my question is, why did you think that you probably were responsible?

MR MALAN: Before he answers, may I just extend to that question because in 9(5) in the application he does apply for murder but he says

"For two people killed with a knopkierrie"

in the application form.

MR SONTI: I've already mentioned in the past that all these incidents that transpired in 1993, I was arrested for them. I was there when they discovered the deceased. The truth and the only truth is, when I apply for amnesty - even though I was there when they were discovering the late or the deceased, I found myself arrested and in custody for 3 months, six months.

Now the reason why I'm applying for amnesty, even though I'm accused number 1 in this case, I'm coming here to explain my innocence in as far as killing is concerned. I don't know whether I've answered your question.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] because you have been charged?

MR MOTATA: May I just ask this before you come in Mr Madasa?

A member of the Committee has made you aware that in terms of 9(a) 4 you are asking for amnesty for having killed two people with a knopkierrie, are we understanding you to say you never killed anybody?

MR SONTI: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Sonti, on page 36, that is separate of C, were you are asked to state the names of the people, you are saying Mavuso and other, to whom were you referring?

MR SONTI: First of all, as I have already explained, the one person that I know among the deceased is Mavuso for the following reasons: Mavuso was in the first group ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, ...[inaudible] - do we have a spare copy of the application? Mr Mapoma, do we have an extra copy of the application?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, we don't have an extra copy of the bundle but we do have a bundle of applications where I was trying to look for his own application.

You are looking at page 34, are you not?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is a document marked 7177/94, Application for Amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Act. Do you recall that document?

MR SONTI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally complete the form?

MR SONTI: Yes, that is my handwriting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] education?

MR SONTI: Six.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pass standard six?

MR SONTI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Go to page 39. Do you see the signature at the foot of that page?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you go to page 35 where you are asked, at paragraph 9 sub-paragraph (a), sub-paragraph I, you were asked there to indicate the acts in regard to which you're asking amnesty and you've indicated there that you are asking amnesty in respect of murder, do you see that?

MR SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] any murder?

MR SONTI: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why you put in murder there?

MR SONTI: Sir, the one reason that I can put forward is that I am the 1st accused in this case. I was arrested for murder, today I will have a chance to explain my innocence. I'm sure that my docket would also say that I have murdered. I don't know if I had applied for amnesty what else would I say after being accused of murder. I don't know whether I have given you a correct answer.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] for amnesty are persons who have committed an act which amounts to a criminal offence, who consider themselves to be guilty of a criminal offence, do you understand that?

MR SONTI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] paragraph (Roman 9) well, in paragraph 9(a) (Roman 4) at page 35 you refer to two people who were killed with a knopkierrie. You didn't hit anyone with a knopkierrie, did you?

MR SONTI: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: At page 36 you are asked to state the names of the victims and in Roman C1 you gave the name of Mavuso and other. You didn't kill Mavuso, did you?

MR SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were involved in the abduction of the persons who were killed and taking them to a shack? Were you involved in that?

MR SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when a decision to kill the deceased was taken?

MR SONTI: No, I was not present Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left block F to assist with the location of the relatives of Bulelwa and Blanko, you were not aware of what was to happen to the individuals who had been captured?

MR SONTI: I did not know Sir. My aim was to locate Blanko's next of kin and when I got there, there was trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: What was to happen to the deceased, the persons that you had captured?

MR SONTI: They were already there Sir, when I left.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not know what - that they were going to be killed?

MR SONTI: No, I did not know Sir. And I had still thought that because Tusanang was not one of those who were put into the shack, he was the one who was going to give information to the public, to the community, about everything that was transpiring.

CHAIRPERSON: To the person who had been captured?

MR SONTI: I was thinking, they were still young but their acts were superseding their age. I thought they were going to be sjamboked or the law would take its course.

CHAIRPERSON: Take its course? Were they going to be handed to the police?

MR SONTI: The police were untrustworthy.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you've just said that the law will take its course, how was the law going to take its course?

MR SONTI: I think - as we had reported to the Red Cross, I am thinking that maybe the Red Cross would have consulted with the people who were there at the time or the law that was in operation at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you subsequently learn that the deceased were all taken to the veld and they were killed there? - at some point.

MR SONTI: Yes, I did Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that surprise you?

MR SONTI: It did not surprise me Sir. That decision that had been taken had already been concluded.

CHAIRPERSON: But as I understand the position, you did not expect that they would be killed? You thought that because they were fairly young they were going to be sjamboked or as you put it, the law was going to take its course, right?

MR SONTI: Yes, I did think about that but then to think, being ...[indistinct] not knowing what was going to happen, I think is very difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: You learnt that an order had been issued that they be killed?

MR SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not surprised because there was an order that they should be killed?

MR SONTI: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the order surprise you?

MR SONTI: Yes, I was surprised but not to that extent because in everything that I thought, there were many incidents that were carrying in Moleleki Extension 2 resulting from the behaviour of these children of these young ones.

There's something that I have just left out Sir. I am not sure whether I can just say it, something that I almost forgot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SONTI: In everything that I am explaining here, that it was something that had been formed in block F. The reason why I am saying this is because there were youth that were not part of Moleleki Extension 2, they came from other sections. Their apology that they had made on the 5th of December, that they had an urgent meeting and we would have to wait for them to get back to us.

I just want to say we were trying to attend to what brought us here today. I can give you an example ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] do that tomorrow.

MR SONTI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it's just I am told that the interpreters are now fairly tired, it's been a long day and if we go beyond this point there may be a problem of concentration. Would you please hold onto what you want to say and will you please make a note of what you want to say and would you say that tomorrow morning? Would that be okay with you?

MR SONTI: Yes, that would be okay Sir, because everything that is happening involves my name and I am therefore prepared to divulge whatever it is that I know, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Have arrangements been made to ensure that the first applicant is brought here timeously tomorrow morning?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, the arrangement has been made. The arrangement is as follows: Since the applicant was in Sun City prison in Johannesburg, an arrangement has been made now that he be brought to Boksburg police station where he will be held in custody and will be brought to the hearing until Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you very much.

At this stage we will adjourn until tomorrow morning 9 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS