Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: The Amnesty Committee constituted with myself as Chairman, Dr Tsotsi on my right and Adv Ntsiki Sandi on my left. We are going to consider an application this morning by Mr Mandla Maduna. Are counsel ready to proceed?

MS GOSO: Yes, we are Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please place yourself on record?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, for the record, I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

MR FORTUIN: I am Louis Fortuin, acting for the victims.

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, my name is Nona Goso. I am representing the applicant at this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed. Bring the applicant.

MS GOSO: I am calling the applicant Mr Chairman, he is ready to be sworn in.

MANDLA MADUNA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, I have prepared an affidavit on behalf of the applicant. My understanding is that copies of the affidavit have been distributed to the members of the Committee and I now proceed to read it into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: We have received it, thank you.

MS GOSO

"I, the undersigned, Mandla Maduna do hereby make oath and say that I am 32 years old and currently serving a sentence of 35 years"

Can you please excuse me Mr Chairman, may I assist the applicant for him to put on his interpretation aid?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SANDI: I think that will be channel 3 for Xhosa.

MS GOSO: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

"I am 32 years old and currently serving a sentence of 35 years at the Victor Verster prison in Paarl for three counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder and unlawful possession of arms and ammunition, arising out of an incident that took place at house 2210, Old Crossroads, Nyanga in the Cape on Friday, 19th of March 1993.

The facts to which I depose, are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the context indicates otherwise. I have made an application for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, Act 34 of 1995, hereinafter referred to as the Act, in respect of the charges of which I was found guilty.

At the time of the incident, I was 27 years old. I was a member of the Pan African Congress. I joined the PAC in 1991 at the Nyanga branch and I became a member of the PAC Task Force in 1992.

I was recruited to the Task Force by Shaun Bako. All the political structures of the PAC were concerned that members of the organisation were being attacked by gangsters. Members of the Task Force were told that it was their duty to defend members of the organisation.

On 19 March 1993, Shaun instructed me to meet with other members of the Task Force at Table Top, a firm near Crossroads.

At Table Top I found Shaun, Wella, Sipiwe Mqweso, the Regional Commander, Kamagen and Tinage. The Regional Commander instructed Kamagen, Tinage and myself to go and attack a certain house. He informed us that Tinage was going to lead us to the house and when we get there, he would give us instructions on how to carry out the operation.

Later in the evening, at approximately 19H00 a man known to me as Victor Sam, arrived at Table Top, carrying a brown bag. He gave this bag to the Regional Commander. The Regional Commander opened it, and took out two Uzi sub-machine guns and one pistol. He gave one sub-machine gun to me, the other to Kamagen and he gave the pistol to Tinage and he instructed us to go.

We followed Tinage. Tinage led us past the squatter camp area, situated in Section 4, Crossroads. We entered the area of the Unathi houses and went into a particular house, the address is unknown to me.

When we got to the house, Tinage instructed me to follow him into the house and once inside the house, to shoot at the people in the lounge without going into the rooms. He instructed Kamagen to remain outside as a guard. I followed Tinage around the house, into the front door. He opened the door and entered, I followed.

He started shooting on the right hand side and I followed shooting on the left hand side. I saw three people on the left hand side as I was shooting. When Tinage gave a withdrawal instruction, we left the premises. We had crossed four streets after leaving the house, when a light blue kombi appeared.

It stopped not far from me. Police inside the kombi asked me to stop. They were pointing firearms at me. I threw the machine gun into a hedge. They rushed out of the vehicle and came to arrest me. Tinage and Kamagen managed to run away. I admit that I was not truthful when I gave evidence during my trial. I had no idea who was to be the target and which house was targeted. It is however obvious that the Regional Commander and Tinage, knew about the operation and about these details.

As a member of the Task Force, I regarded it as my duty to defend members of the organisation against attacks. I was informed that these attacks were by members of a gang who were unknown to me. I now deeply regret the loss of life and injury caused by me on 19 March 1993.

All I can ask for is that the family, relatives and friends of the deceased and other victims forgive me. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act, that the offences which I committed were associated with a political objective as contemplated by the Act, and that I have made full disclosure of all the facts relevant to the incident and to this application.

I accordingly, respectfully request that I be granted amnesty in respect of the offences which I have committed and for which I have been found guilty, and I am currently serving a sentence. Mandla Maduna".

That is now the end of the affidavit, and the applicant is ready to confirm it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maduna, you have heard your counsel read onto the record your affidavit. Do you confirm that your affidavit contains what has been read out and do you confirm that as being the truth?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there anything you wish to add to this by eliciting evidence?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, may I proceed? Mr Maduna, can you please in your own words inform the members of the Amnesty Committee ...[intervention]

MR MADUNA: Please repeat.

MS GOSO: I will start again. Mr Maduna, can you please inform the members of the Amnesty Committee what your order was on that day?

MR MADUNA: The Regional Commander gave us an order to go and attack the gangsters at a certain house. It was myself, Tinage and Kamagen. Tinage knew the place and he was the one who was going to lead us in our operation, throughout the operation. That was the order.

MS GOSO: Who gave this order?

MR MADUNA: It was Sipiwe Mqweso.

MS GOSO: And who was Sipiwe Mqweso?

MR MADUNA: He was the Regional Commander of the Task Force.

MS GOSO: Why would, can you please explain to the members of the Amnesty Committee, why you would take an order from Sipiwe Mqweso?

MR MADUNA: I have a problem with my headphone.

MS GOSO: If you can please bear with us Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS GOSO: Mr Maduna, can you hear well now?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: I would like you to explain to the members of the Amnesty Committee, why it is that you would accept an order from Mr Mqweso?

MR MADUNA: As a member of the Task Force, if the order has been issued to do whatever, I am obliged to do that, because it is my duty to obey orders to defend the members of the PAC.

MS GOSO: Now, what was - in your understanding, what was sought to be achieved by obeying this order?

MR MADUNA: Please repeat the question. Please repeat the question.

MS GOSO: In your understanding, what was sought to be achieved through this order?

ADV SANDI: Ms Goso, you may have to ...[indistinct] your question a bit, because I think it is not clear as to whose purpose you are talking about. Are you talking about the purpose of the person giving the order, or him carrying out the order, being given?

MS GOSO: If I may explain, or if I may ask the question again. What did you think was to be achieved through carrying out this order?

MR MADUNA: As a member of the Task Force, my duty was to protect the members of the PAC, so if the instruction is to attack the gangsters who were giving problems to the PAC, that actually to be was obvious, it was because we were to protect the members of the PAC. I am not sure if you are satisfied with my answer.

MS GOSO: I think you have answered the question, but I will proceed to ask you another question. Why weren't the people who were attacking the members of the organisation, reported to the police?

MR MADUNA: That was not my duty.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware Mr Maduna, whether such people, the gangster group you have talked about, whether they were reported at the police station?

MR MADUNA: I don't have any idea whether they were reported to the police station, but I was told that the gangsters were attacking the PAC members.

MS GOSO: Do you know whose house it was, do you now know whose house it was that was attacked in which the people were who were attacked that day?

MR MADUNA: I didn't know the owner of the house or the people who were in the house at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you now know whose house it was?

MR MADUNA: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Okay. Where is Sipiwe Mqweso now, do you know?

MR MADUNA: I heard that he passed away.

MS GOSO: That is the end of my leading examination.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us more about the people that you were with on that day. You have given us the name Shaun Wella, Kamagen and Tinage. Did you know Shaun?

MR MADUNA: Yes, I knew him as Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you known him before this incident?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What were his other names?

MR MADUNA: I know him as Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MR MADUNA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he work?

MR MADUNA: I do not know, I only know that he was an APLA member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Wella?

MR MADUNA: No. I only knew him as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you known him before this day?

MR MADUNA: It was approximately four months, about four months.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where he lived and what work he did?

MR MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: This man Kamagen, what are his names?

MR MADUNA: I know him as Kamagen.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long before this day, did you know him?

MR MADUNA: I had known him for a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know him by any other name?

MR MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MR MADUNA: He told me that he was residing at Khayelitsha.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his address in Khayelitsha?

MR MADUNA: I do not know his address.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he work?

MR MADUNA: He was working at a taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: What work was he doing at the taxi rank?

MR MADUNA: I used to see him driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Tinage, what were his names?

MR MADUNA: I do not know. I know him as Tinage.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before this day, did you know him?

MR MADUNA: I saw him there for the very first time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you won't know where he worked, and you won't know where he lived?

MR MADUNA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you know Mr Mqweso?

MR MADUNA: About six months.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MR MADUNA: He said he was residing at Khayelitsha.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know his address?

MR MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a married man?

MR MADUNA: No, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: What work did he do?

MR MADUNA: Are you referring to Sipiwe Mqweso?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MADUNA: I only knew him as a Regional Commander, nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that he was Regional Commander?

MR MADUNA: He told me so.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he die?

MR MADUNA: Just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: What year?

MR MADUNA: In 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that he had died?

MR MADUNA: I heard from the other members of the party.

CHAIRPERSON: From who?

MR MADUNA: It was Michael Siolo.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Michael's full name, Michael what?

MR MADUNA: Michael Siolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in prison at the time?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Michael Siolo tell you this while you were in prison?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Michael Siolo himself serving a term of imprisonment?

MR MADUNA: No, he was just a visitor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, any questions you wish to put to the applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, how long did you live in Crossroads before the incident?

MR MADUNA: I am not residing at Crossroads.

MR FORTUIN: My question is how long did you reside in Crossroads before the incident in March 1993?

MR MADUNA: You mean the time I spent staying in Crossroads, what is it actually that you want to know?

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you live in Crossroads before you went to prison?

MR MADUNA: I never stayed at Crossroads.

MR FORTUIN: I see. I believe then you lived in Nyanga, according to your affidavit. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: While staying at Nyanga and joining the PAC organisation, did you know about the conflict in Crossroads at that point in time?

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware before the incident in March, or before March, of the conflict in Crossroads? The fighting that went on in Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: I can't hear clearly with my headphones. Will you please repeat your question Sir?

MR FORTUIN: Before the incident in March, were you aware of the conflict or the battles that was going on in Crossroads at that point in time?

MR MADUNA: Do you mean before I joined the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to prison?

MR MADUNA: Can I get a new headphone? This one seems to give me problems. I can hear clearly now.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, before you went to prison, before March or during March 1993, were you aware of the conflict that was going on or was raging and the battles that were raging in Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: What type of conflict or battles are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just be clear. You see, he was living in Nyanga and not in Crossroads. The question is, were you aware of any conflicts in Crossroads before you went to prison?

MR MADUNA: What I was told as a member of the Task Force was that the PAC members were being attacked at Crossroads. They were being attacked by the members of the gangsters.

MR FORTUIN: I see. Have you ever heard of somebody called Jeffery Nongwe that lived in Crossroads before you went to prison?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name for us please? His surname?

MR FORTUIN: It is Nongwe.

MR MADUNA: Yes, I used to hear people talking about Nongwe.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware that he was a leader of one section of the community of Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: Yes. I heard that he was a leader, but I didn't know anything about his constituency.

MR FORTUIN: I see. Were you aware that he was a member of the ANC and was later expelled by the ANC?

MR MADUNA: No, I don't know that.

MR FORTUIN: Are you telling the Commission that you were not aware that there was conflict in Crossroads and the conflict was between the ANC and the squatter leaders in Crossroads by the name of Jeffery Nongwe?

MR MADUNA: What is important to me, what was important to me as a member of the Task Force was to listen to what I was being told.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the question. It is not what your orders were or your instructions were. You see you are asked did you know that there was conflict between these groups that has been mentioned, between the ANC and the squatters? If you did not know, just say so.

MR MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

MR FORTUIN: I see. The reason why I asked the question Mr Maduna, is that it was widely reported in newspapers. I've got a clipping here of the Weekly Mail, there is clippings of the Cape Times, it is dated March/April 1993 and they talk about the conflict between Mr Nongwe on the one hand, and the ANC on the other hand.

CHAIRPERSON: He has told you that he doesn't know anything about it. That may well be so, there might be that conflict, but he - unless you are suggesting that he was involved in the conflict.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, that is exactly the line of questioning I was trying to follow, by suggesting that he was involved in the conflict at that point in time, and that there was no politics involved. It was basically a power struggle between the ANC and Mr Jeffery Nongwe on the other hand.

Mr Maduna, were you also aware - I mean, this conflict in Crossroads was so important it was reported on the television, and in fact the Goldstone Commission became involved in investigating the causes for the conflict in Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: I think I have already given you the answer.

MR FORTUIN: Now, can you also explain to the Commission, you say the gangsters were attacking your PAC members. Were they attacking the PAC members in Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Crossroads or where were they being attacked? Was it only in Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: What I was told that Crossroads attacks, what I was told about was only the Crossroads attacks.

MR FORTUIN: I see. So you were not informed that there were other attacks in other areas, only in Crossroads, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

MR MADUNA: I was told by Shaun.

MR FORTUIN: Didn't you feel obliged to question as to who the gangsters were, what their make up was? I mean you are a member of the PAC and one does not, I assume, just follow orders without questioning the political content, as to why that order is being given?

MR MADUNA: First of all, the Task Force defends members of the PAC, defending them against the government of the oppressors.

When I am talking about this government of oppressors, I am talking about the government who took the African land and he also took the Africans by force and put them in isolated areas. Those places today are called townships.

The same government had laws, the laws that where there to oppress the Africans, using police to impose those laws. The Task Force even the gangsters who were attacking the members of the PAC, the Task Force was there to defend them, and the members of other organisations whenever they have problems about PAC, they don't come and negotiate politically, but they attack with arms.

The Task Force was there to protect the PAC against such crimes. If the order is being issued to me to go and do something, I don't question the order. I just obey, I just do something, because I knew very well that I was defending the members of the PAC.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, do you know of any incident or incidents where PAC members were attacked by gangsters?

CHAIRPERSON: He told us that he was merely told by Shaun that gangsters attacked PAC members.

MR FORTUIN: Yes Mr Chairperson, I just want to establish whether he with his own, out of his own recollection, knows of any incident whether he read it in the newspaper or whether or TV, whether heard from somebody else, whether there were incidents where the PAC was attacked by gangsters?

I will follow up that question as well with the other question, as to did this gangsters have names, were they a group of people, were they called the Americans, were they called Chicago Kids or what were they called?

MR MADUNA: What is your question Sir?

MR FORTUIN: My question is, do you out of your own recollection, somebody that told you except these members that you named in the affidavit, have your neighbours told you, have you read it in the newspaper about gangsters attacking PAC members, or even other ordinary PAC members informing you of attacks on them?

MR MADUNA: I won't talk about anything that I heard from TV or newspapers. As a member of the Task Force, whatever information I got, I used to get it from the Commander.

I don't listen to anything, I can't even read a newspaper. I don't listen to anything that I, I don't take anything that I get from TV.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but Mr Maduna, I am afraid I think that is hardly an answer to the question put to you by Mr Fortuin. The question that is being put to you is, did anyone else other than the people you have mentioned in your affidavit, tell you about attacks on PAC people at Crossroads?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this apart from Shaun?

ADV SANDI: Apart from Shaun, did anyone tell you about attacks on PAC people that were taking place at Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: Even Wella told me.

ADV SANDI: Who did he say had been attacked? Did he give you the name of a PAC member who had been attacked?

MR MADUNA: Yes, there were members who were attacked, PAC members who were attacked.

ADV SANDI: Who were those PAC members?

MR MADUNA: I don't have their names.

MR FORTUIN: Have you ever attended a PAC meeting when you joined the organisation in 1991, as you say in your affidavit?

MR MADUNA: Yes, sometimes I used to attend the meetings.

MR FORTUIN: During these meetings, did anyone tell you about these attacks?

MR MADUNA: At the time I was still a member of the PAC, I was not yet a member of the Task Force, therefore I was not told about the people who were being attacked.

ADV SANDI: In the course of discussions in those meetings, was it ever mentioned that PAC had a problem in that its members were being attacked, were there any discussions of that sort at those meetings?

MR MADUNA: Yes. But I was not present.

MR FORTUIN: Did you ever participate in protest marches of the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: Of what relevance is all this?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, to establish his bona fide as regards to his membership of the PAC. In the affidavit Mr President, with respect, he says in 1991 he became a member of the PAC and it is only in 1992 when he became a member of the Task Force.

I assumed that during that period before he became a member of the Task Force, obviously there should have been activities of the organisation that he participated in. Have you ever participated in activities, protest march or anything of that sort, Mr Maduna?

MR MADUNA: Unfortunately I used to be at work.

MR FORTUIN: What kind of work did you do Mr Maduna?

MR MADUNA: Taxi.

MR FORTUIN: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean? What work did you do when you say taxi?

MR MADUNA: I used to drive a taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the owner of that taxi?

MR MADUNA: I used to drive for Languza.

ADV SANDI: What are his full names, this Languza?

MR MADUNA: Eric Languza.

ADV SANDI: His address?

MR MADUNA: His address is at NY5 number 38. I understand he has a new house, I don't know his new address.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know Victor Sam?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: I believe he is also involved in, he owns taxi's, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: And I assume you met him while being at the taxi rank working there?

MR MADUNA: Yes, correct.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware of the fact that certain allegations has been made against Mr Mbulelo Victor Sam that he is involved in conflict, in armed conflict in Crossroads and those areas? It is the same person, his first name is Mbulelo, I think Victor Sam.

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware before the incident and after the incident and even while being in prison, that allegations are being made against Mr Mbulelo Victor Sam that he is involved in a conflict in Crossroads and other areas?

MR MADUNA: Yes, I heard about that whilst I was in prison.

MR FORTUIN: So, I assume then you didn't hear of that before you went to prison?

MR MADUNA: You mean before I went to prison?

MR FORTUIN: That is correct?

MR MADUNA: No, I did not hear about it before I went to prison.

MR FORTUIN: Even though as you stated, you don't read newspapers, I am just putting it to you that in the newspapers there was quite a lot of reporting of the conflict and certain names were mentioned as well. You haven't heard of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just for my own information, this is a conflict between Mr Sam and who else?

MR FORTUIN: I am coming to that Mr Chairperson, my line of questioning will point to where I am going Mr Chairperson, if you will just abide with me for a while.

Were you aware that the allegations were made that Mr Victor Sam, Mbulelo Victor Sam was the person that supported Nongwe and supported him in the form of arms being in conflict with the ANC?

MR MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

MR FORTUIN: You see, Mr Maduna, it is my instructions that Mr Sam was the person that was involved in the armed conflict in supplying Mr Nongwe with the weaponry and manpower in the conflict. Were you aware of that, did somebody speak to you about that?

MR MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Fortuin, are you suggesting that this conflict to which you refer, was a political conflict?

MR FORTUIN: Not at all Sir. I refer you to the Goldstone report. The Goldstone Commission investigated the circumstances of the conflict in Crossroads and it came to the conclusion that the conflict was between people that usurp power, squatter leaders, and it was about housing at the end of the day, between or the acquisition of housing was one of the reasons and squatter leaders usurped power for themselves and in that way enriched themselves. That is what the report in the Goldstone Commission at certain pages say.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then you bring your questioning down to the realities of the applicant.

MR FORTUIN: Whilst you were in prison, did you at any point in time speak to a Raymond Ndinisa?

MR MADUNA: Raymond Ndinisa, are you referring to that person?

MR FORTUIN: That is correct yes?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Did you inform him or during your discussions, that you only became a member of the PAC after you were in prison?

MR MADUNA: There is nothing that I discussed with Raymond regarding why I was in prison, or regarding PAC matters. We generally discussed matters unrelated to PAC issues.

MR FORTUIN: I see. Did you at one stage speak to him about the incident and only discovered afterwards that he is related to the victims of the incident?

MR MADUNA: No, I don't remember talking to him about the substance of my case.

MR FORTUIN: During your trial Mr Maduna, did you at any point in time, point out to the Court that the basis of your defence would be that you were protecting the members of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Did you during the trial, inform the Court that you were a member of the PAC and that you were a member of the Task Force and that you were protecting the lives and property and the interests of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Why did you not inform the Court of you being a member, being a member of the Task Force, what was the purpose of the act you had committed?

MR MADUNA: It was because the Courts were under foreign a process, so I could not explain things related to the PAC and I was trying to save myself at that time.

MR FORTUIN: I believe that you during the trial, denied that you committed the act, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So you were in fact lying during the proceedings, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: Correct.

MR FORTUIN: Is there reason for the Court today to believe you if you lied previously?

MR MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Is there any reason for the Commission to believe you today, because you previously lied?

MR MADUNA: You see, this is a Truth Commission. At the time I was in court, I did not agree that I was involved but this forum of the Commission is, I came to speak the truth and all I know about what happened.

MR FORTUIN: During the proceedings in court, why was it never put to the witnesses that there was conflict in Crossroads, gangsters were attacking PAC members?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR FORTUIN: Why during the court proceedings, during your trial, did your counsel or yourself never put it to the Court that there was conflict in Crossroads between the gangsters and the PAC members, or the gangsters were attacking the PAC members?

MR MADUNA: The Attorney himself or herself, did not know that I was a PAC member.

MR FORTUIN: I see. Let us come to the incident self Mr Maduna, when you went into the house, did you have a time to have a look at the people who were sitting in the lounge?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Did you perhaps notice that the people that were sitting in the lounge were women and a very small child?

MR MADUNA: No, I did not notice. At the side from where I was shooting, I only saw adults. I did not notice that there may have been a child or somebody who was a woman, I only heard a woman's voice while we were in the process of shooting. That is someone screaming.

MR FORTUIN: And when you took note of the fact that it was a woman shouting, did you stop shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he heard the woman screaming.

MR MADUNA: I heard a voice of a lady screaming.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do, did you stop shooting when you heard the scream?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: You were informed that it is gangsters, you approach a house and now you discover there is a woman in the house. Didn't you think at that point in time that I should stop shooting, I should leave the house or the room? Or didn't you care?

MR MADUNA: The order given was that we must go inside the house and shoot.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, are you in fact saying now that the order was to go into the house and shoot every human being inside?

MR MADUNA: In the dining room.

MR FORTUIN: In the dining room?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So even if there were children and babies, you would have shot and killed them? That is your order, is it?

MR MADUNA: What I am trying to say and explain is that the order was given that we must go inside and attack.

MR FORTUIN: My question is Mr Maduna, would you have shot and killed everyone that was in that room in terms of your orders?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So even if you saw the boy or even smaller, babies, you would have still shot and killed whoever was in your sight, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: What I was told at the Task Force was that you carry the order to its last.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that it doesn't matter whether there were adults or children, you must carry your orders out and shoot, is that what you are trying to say?

MR MADUNA: No. The order said we must go in and shoot in the dining room.

ADV SANDI: In executing that order Mr Maduna, do you mean to say that even if there were small children and babies there, you would just shoot them in carrying out the order?

MR MADUNA: Firstly, Tinage was the one who was leading us in the operation. So he said it is me and him who were supposed to go inside the dining room and attack, and Kamagen was supposed to stay outside. He went in, I followed. He started shooting to the right and I shot into the left. And he then screamed that we must withdraw, we withdrew and left.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question that is being put to you, you see is, if you saw children in the room there, would you have shot them just because you were ordered to shoot?

MR MADUNA: An order is an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

DR TSOTSI: Why did Tinage say you must stop shooting? Was it because everybody was dead in the house or was it for any other reason, why did he call upon you to stop and run away?

MR MADUNA: I do not know.

DR TSOTSI: You never asked him?

MR MADUNA: No, I never got the opportunity to ask him. For that matter, you don't question an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed.

MR FORTUIN: Did you have an opportunity, did some of the PAC members or the members of the Task Force, after the incident and while you were in prison, come to visit you and did you question them about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Question them about what?

MR FORTUIN: About the incident, the fact that there were women in the house, who the people were, etc?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the people from the PAC came to visit him while he was in prison, they were not there at the shooting. He was there at the shooting, so how could he have been asking them questions about who was there?

MR FORTUIN: The question is Mr Chairperson, whether he was interested in finding out who were the people that lived there, and that was killed in the process. Obviously he has been charged for that incident, so he might just be interested to hear who he killed in the process?

CHAIRPERSON: After the trial, during the trial or before the trial or when?

MR FORTUIN: During and after the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: At the trial he would know who is involved.

MR FORTUIN: I will leave that question be Mr Chairperson.

After the incident Mr Maduna, what did you do? Did you meet other people that were also in the vicinity and was walking there or were you alone, absolutely alone, only you and Tinage and Welcome, were only the three of you walking after the incident to wherever you went?

MR MADUNA: Do you mean when we left the house? There were people who were moving around the area and we too were on our own way.

MR FORTUIN: Did you walk with these people after the incident, or didn't you associate with them after the incident?

MR MADUNA: Who are you referring to?

MR FORTUIN: I say did you meet other people besides the two, Tinage and Kamagen, did you meet other people and walk with them after the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Other people meaning other people of his political group or just ordinary citizens?

MR FORTUIN: Any people for that matter Mr Chairperson.

MR MADUNA: How walk around with somebody else, what do you mean? I am not clear, do you mean did I walk away? The people I was moving with, it was Tinage and that other ...[intervention]

MR FORTUIN: Did you - I will ask you again, did you after the incident, join an other group that was in the vicinity and walk with them?

MR MADUNA: No. I was captured then.

MR FORTUIN: I see. I see that is in contrast as to what the Court found. The Court found that after the incident you joined a group of people, you were walking with the weapon in your hand and you were on the outside of the group and when the kombi approached you, only then did you run away?

MR MADUNA: That was the evidence given by the police and that was not true. That is what I told the Court that there was no such a thing.

MR FORTUIN: You say that you have remorse for what you have done. Did you ever try and make contact with the family to express that remorse?

MR MADUNA: No. No, I never did so.

MR FORTUIN: Will anyone be called up today or whenever the proceedings conclude, to confirm your membership of the organisation?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR FORTUIN: Will anyone, do you know whether anyone during these proceedings will be called up to confirm your membership of the PAC?

INTERPRETER: The question is not clear for the witness.

MR FORTUIN: I want to know during these proceedings, are you going to call somebody to confirm that you were a member of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: When it is necessary.

MR FORTUIN: Did you have any intentions of calling somebody before I asked the question?

MR MADUNA: No, I have no such intention, but if the TRC requires so, that can be done.

MR FORTUIN: Do you have any intentions of calling Mbulelo Victor Sam to give evidence as that he was the person who supplied you with weapons?

MR MADUNA: Firstly, Victor Sam never gave me weapons, weapons were provided to me by the Commander. Victor Sam only gave the Commander the bag full of weapons. If the TRC wants to call him to come and give evidence ...[intervention]

MR FORTUIN: Is there anyone that you are going to call to confirm that you were a member of the Task Team of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR FORTUIN: Are you going to call any witness to confirm that you were a member of the Task Team of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: If the Commission requires me to do so, that would be done.

MR FORTUIN: The people that were involved in the incident, and I am talking about Shaun, Wella, Sipiwe, Kamagen and Tinage, those who are alive, are you going to call anyone of them to testify on your behalf?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat that question?

MR FORTUIN: Are you going to call anyone of the people that you have mentioned in your affidavit, to testify during these proceedings?

MR MADUNA: Yes. Shaun is no more. Tinage, I do not know his whereabouts, and Kamagen because I am incarcerated in prison.

MR FORTUIN: Your decision to apply for amnesty, were you ever asked by the PAC to make the application, were you ever visited by the Regional Leadership of the PAC to assist you to make this application?

MR MADUNA: No, the form, I thought of filling my own form because the Commission is made for people who want to come and confess. That was the reason why I filled the form, because I want to come and explain all I did, so that I can be pardoned, and be pardoned by those whom I wronged.

MR FORTUIN: As you explained previously, you are a disciplined member of the PAC, in that you follow orders. Didn't you think it was necessary that you consult your organisation when you want to make application for amnesty?

MR MADUNA: You see, you don't simply do anything as a PAC member. It was the PAC itself who encouraged its members who were in prison, to go to the TRC. So that if the PAC did not want us to appear in front of the TRC, I too would not have applied.

MR FORTUIN: You see Mr Maduna, my previous question to you was, did the PAC assist you in the process of making this application. You said you got the forms and you applied. Now suddenly you change your answer to include that perspective as well.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said the PAC encouraged its members to apply. You see, that is different from saying that they assisted him in applying. They encouraged all their members to apply and that is why he is applying.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairman, the question is Mr Maduna, did they assist you in any way in making this application?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: In what way did they assist you?

MR MADUNA: The PAC appointed someone who visited prisons, helping Africans to fill in these forms making applications to the TRC.

MR FORTUIN: Who was this person Mr Maduna?

MR MADUNA: It was Leklapa Mpahlele.

MR FORTUIN: Did you consult your organisation in drawing up this affidavit, making this application?

MR MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Did you consult your organisation when you drew up this affidavit?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: When was this?

MR MADUNA: June.

MR FORTUIN: I see. And who did you speak to during June, during your consultation in drawing up this affidavit, or making this application?

MR MADUNA: I did not talk to the PAC about affidavits, I did them with Sis Nona, the Advocate, but the PAC knew that I was to appear before the TRC as a member of the Task Force.

MR FORTUIN: I see, Mr Maduna, my problem at the moment is you are saying that you were informed that there were gangs attacking the PAC, and the only way you came to this knowledge, was because people who is with us no more, or people that we can't trace, gave you this information.

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So today you can tell anything to the Amnesty Committee, because the people that we can speak to to verify your version of the events, is not with us any more.

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, the point is today you can come and tell the Amnesty Committee any version that you think would grant you an amnesty because the people that can verify your version of the events, is with us no more, or they are untraceable. How do you explain that, Sir?

MR MADUNA: It is a tragedy to me too that those people are not around any more.

MR FORTUIN: What you were told by the PAC and by your Commander as you state, that there was conflict between the PAC or the gangsters were attacking the PAC, nowhere, nowhere is there evidence of such incidents in front of this Amnesty Committee, either through newspaper reports or through other Commissions that investigated the conflict, or either through the police to be able to say that there was conflict of that nature.

MR MADUNA: I don't know about that.

MR FORTUIN: The only ...[intervention]

MR MADUNA: But what I am saying is all of this happened as I said. That members of the PAC died, I can't help it. I do not know where these people who were investigating, where they investigated, because PAC members - I do not know whether the investigations were thorough as not to establish that PAC members were being attacked by gangsters.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware that there was a person living in that house that you attacked, by the name of Depoutch Elese and that he is a prominent member of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the first name again? How do you spell that?

MR FORTUIN: Depoutch. Elese, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a person by that name?

MR MADUNA: I heard about that at court.

MR FORTUIN: It is my instructions Mr Maduna, that the purpose of the attack that evening, was to eliminate Mr Elese, Mr Depoutch Elese, that particular evening.

MR MADUNA: Can you repeat please.

MR FORTUIN: I say, it is my instructions Mr Maduna, that that particular, the purpose of the attack was to eliminate an ANC leader by the name of Depoutch Elese?

MR MADUNA: No, you got wrong information.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, would I have an opportunity again to ask some questions after consultation with my client? Would I have another opportunity just to make sure that all the questions that they want to put to the witness, will be asked, now or later?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to find out from your clients. You see, we've lost a lot of time this morning, but I am prepared to stand down for a short while for you to make sure that your client - is that what you want?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, I thought maybe if my colleague next to me, could maybe ask his questions which he had, which he wished to put to the witness, we could proceed without then having to stand down, and during lunch hour I can speak to my clients to make sure that their version has been put to the applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman, there would be some few questions. Thank you Sir.

Mr Maduna, when you received instructions you said today, you were instructed by a Regional Commander. For what was the person who instructed you, a Regional Commander? For what structure was he a Regional Commander, the person who instructed you?

MR MADUNA: He was a Regional Commander of the Task Force.

MR MAPOMA: So you were instructed in your capacity as a member of the Task Force also? Is that what you are saying?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So when you committed the attack, you were not just attacking as an ordinary member of the PAC, is that what you say?

MR MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR MAPOMA: When you conducted the operation of attacking the people you attacked, you were acting not as an ordinary member of the PAC, but a member of the Task Force, is that so?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: I would like to refer you to page 1 of the bundle of documents, on paragraph 7(b) of your application for amnesty. There you are asked a question, you are requested there to state the capacity in which you served the organisation, or body or ...[indistinct] movement, and you said you were an ordinary member. How do you explain this disparity?

MR MADUNA: It was because Leklapa Mpahlele is a Zulu speaker, no he speaks English and I spoke in Xhosa. It could be then he put it in this fashion. I think there is nothing wrong as I am explaining now that I was a member of the Task Force. Please Sir, you must remember that in prison you are afforded a little time, and you cannot do things thoroughly.

CHAIRPERSON: This application form on page 1, is that your handwriting?

MR MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

MR MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose writing is that?

MR MADUNA: It is Leklapa Mpahlele's.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir. Now, to your knowledge, you cannot tell this Committee of any incident where a PAC member was attacked by the gangsters, do I understand you correctly?

MR MADUNA: Repeat the question.

MR MAPOMA: You have no personal knowledge of any incident where the PAC member was attacked by gangsters, do you confirm that?

MR MADUNA: Yes, I cannot say there is anybody whose is a PAC member who was ever attacked by members of the gangsters, but there are members of the PAC who were attacked by the gangsters. And here at Poqo, you do not generally call each other by the real name, you would use false names. We generally call each other M'Africa and Poqo.

MR MAPOMA: And you have no knowledge that any of the people who were killed there, was a member of the gangsters, do you confirm that?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR MAPOMA: You as Mandla Maduna, cannot say to this Committee today that any of the people who died at the attack, was a member of the gangsters? Do you confirm that?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat again.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very, very simple please follow me. Do you know that the people whom you killed, were not gangsters? Do you now know that?

MR MAPOMA: I got to hear in court that they were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the question. The question is did you know that they were gangsters, that is the question?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir. Now, who was the Commander of that particular operation? I understand you were a number of people, you were three and who was the Commander of that Unit which went there to conduct the operation?

MR MADUNA: Tinage.

MR MAPOMA: What political organisation did he belong to?

MR MADUNA: He was a member of the Task Force.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that Tinage was a member of the ANC?

MR MADUNA: No, I don't know about that.

MR MAPOMA: Now, before you went for the operation, the operation in question, did you conduct any surveillance? At the place where you were going to attack, before you went to that place, did you conduct a surveillance of that place to see who was there?

MR MADUNA: No. You see, I did not know the place that was supposed to be attacked. I was only told that time and I had to follow.

MR MAPOMA: I would like you to turn to page 5 of the bundle of documents, and in particular to paragraph 11(b) where you say Sipiwe Mqweso, the Head of the Western Cape Task Force at the time, gave the order to retaliate if attacked.

From what appears in your application, all that Sipiwe Mqweso instructed you is to attack when, I mean to retaliate when attacked and there was nothing in this application which says that you were ordered to go and conduct an offensive on anyone. How do you explain this?

MR MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Just read your paragraph 11(b) of your application form on page 5 please. Can you read?

MR MADUNA: I have seen it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you have been asked to explain that.

MR MADUNA: You see, an order was issued that we must go and attack gangsters at a certain house. The one who was supposed to lead us was Tinage. And it was Tinage who knew the location.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not that. The question is that you say Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if you were attacked. Isn't that what you say there in paragraph 11(b)?

MR MADUNA: Yes Sir, it does say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is what you are being questioned about now.

MR MADUNA: What is the question?

CHAIRPERSON: There was no evidence that you were attacked, or that you retaliated? You just went into the house and then you opened fire. That is contrary to what you were instructed by Sipiwe Mqweso?

MR MADUNA: As I have said already, Leklapa Mpahlele was - speaks in another language and I speak in Xhosa. So there was a lack of communication.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there such a difference between the two languages?

MR MADUNA: There is no big difference, but there is a little bit, the languages are not the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know the language may not be the same, but to say to somebody that you must retaliate if you are attacked, that means if you are not attacked, you must not retaliate.

MR MADUNA: You see when you go on an operation to attack, you are given an order that you must attack. If there is somebody who retaliates or who attacks you, you then continue attacking. If there is somebody attacking you, you go on attacking. I don't know whether it is clear.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

Now, Victor Sam, was he a member of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: Yes, as far as I know.

MR MAPOMA: So to your knowledge, when he - sorry Chairperson, he was also a taxi man?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: As well as yourself?

MR MADUNA: Yes, I was working in the taxi's.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the difference between the words defend and attack?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are quite clear in your mind? Explain to me what you understand by defend.

MR MADUNA: To defend means you defend yourself against anything that may happen to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You usually defend yourself when you are being attacked, is that right?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is meant by attack?

MR MADUNA: It means shoot or beat or attack, but be offensive.

CHAIRPERSON: So therefore it means that you are engaged in an activity, attack means that you are engaged in an activity which is an offensive activity, is that right?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't heard about this Task Force and how the Task Force is constituted or made up. How do you become a member of the Task Force, please tell me that?

MR MADUNA: I was recruited by Shaun Poqo.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you do when you become a member of the Task Force, that makes you different from an ordinary member of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: If you are a member of the Task Force, even the members of the PAC is not supposed to know anything about you being a member of the Task Force for security reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: So what do members of the Task Force do which ordinary members, don't do?

MR MADUNA: The members of the Task Force - if there is ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the answer?

MR MADUNA: The duty of the Task Force is to protect the members of the ANC whenever there are leadership people around.

CHAIRPERSON: The PAC. Please Interpreter, you said to protect members of the ANC.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, the members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: So to protect the members of the PAC, is that right?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many people constitute a Task Force?

MR MADUNA: You mean how many people?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many go to make a Task Force?

MR MADUNA: The Task Force is there nationally, in the national membership of the PAC. Each and every region has its own Regional Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: How many make the Task Force in the region in which you were?

MR MADUNA: I don't know the number.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other special duties that you perform by becoming a member of the Task Force?

MR MADUNA: No. Except like to give security at meetings and if the leaders are around.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment now, and we will resume at 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MANDLA MADUNA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR FORTUIN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: That is correct Mr Chairperson. Mr Maduna, when you entered the house the night of the incident, did you enter the house first or was it Tinage that entered the house first?

MR MADUNA: It was Tinage.

MR FORTUIN: Are you aware that during the trial, your trial, the evidence that was led was that you were the first one that entered the house?

MR MADUNA: Yes, I heard that.

MR FORTUIN: And you say, when did you stop firing when you were in the house?

MR MADUNA: Tinage gave an instruction to withdraw.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, isn't it you stopped firing when your magazines were empty? You only left when the magazines of your guns were empty?

MR MADUNA: When Tinage was giving instructions to withdraw, my magazine was already empty.

MR FORTUIN: And was the magazine of Tinage also empty?

MR MADUNA: I do not know.

MR FORTUIN: So you went in and simply emptied your magazine in the house?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

MR FORTUIN: You say you had been recruited by the Task Force, when was that, in 1992?

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR FORTUIN: When were you recruited for the Task Force, was it in 1992?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: You see Mr Maduna, my instructions are that the Task Force was established in 1993.

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: What is wrong with you, this question is very simple. It is put to you that the Task Force was established in 1993.

MR MADUNA: That is not so.

MR FORTUIN: In how many incidents, what training did you receive when you became a member of the Task Force?

MR MADUNA: I received physical training and some military training.

MR FORTUIN: How many times did you receive training, where and by whom?

MR MADUNA: I got an order that I should go to training course at 149 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think the Interpreter is talking too softly, so we can't hear. Carry on.

MR MADUNA: The comrade that was training us, it was Wella who was giving us training at 149 Stadium.

MR FORTUIN: And what kind of training did he give you, shooting exercises, physical exercises?

MR MADUNA: It was physical exercises, body fit and how to take cover, how to handle a firearm, how to control the trigger. That was the type of training that I received.

MR FORTUIN: In how many incidents were you involved in Task Force activities, how many incidents did you participate in?

MR MADUNA: I used to serve security purposes in the meetings with the PAC and then I got an order to be involved in this operation that we are talking about today.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, you said you were a taxi driver, you were involved in taxi's. Normally if one drives around, you always have a lot of people in the taxi. Didn't you during that time when you were in the taxi's, hear of the conflict in Crossroads?

MR MADUNA: If you are a taxi driver with passengers, you concentrate on the road. The people who are chatting, they are just behind you. You won't concentrate on those people, you concentrate on the road. You don't take note of things that they are talking about because they might disturb me on the road.

MR FORTUIN: So Mr Maduna, I just wanted to establish that you didn't read in the newspapers, you didn't see it on TV, you didn't hear from anyone in the whole of your area where you lived, that there was conflict in Crossroads between Mr Jeffery Nongwe and the ANC, is that correct?

MR MADUNA: If you put it the way you put it, that the ANC or Mr Nongwe were fighting, I will have a problem, because the conflict in Crossroads, you would hear gunshots all the time, even the comrades were fighting.

I won't know if you want me to know specifically about this incident of ANC and this gentleman?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I have asked you from the start if you knew about conflict in Crossroads, and you said you don't know about conflict in Crossroads, you only know about the conflict between the gangsters and the PAC, is that correct? Or are you remembering new things now?

MR MADUNA: Your question was whether I knew about any conflict between the ANC and Mr Nongwe, I didn't hear anything about that. Even now, you are still asking that question.

MR FORTUIN: Let me ask you, repeat the question, do you know about conflict in Crossroads and do you know if there was conflict between the parties, do you know what parties were involved in the conflict?

MR MADUNA: The conflict that I can tell you about were the conflicts that were taking place during the times of Witdoeke when those groups of people were fighting the comrades. The conflict whereby the PAC members were being attacked. The conflict between the ANC and Mr Nongwe, I know nothing about.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, when you were instructed to go to the house to complete your mission, were you explained where the front door is, what would be the escape routes, where you would be picked up, where you would be dropped off? Did they say anything of that nature to you?

MR MADUNA: No.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Fortuin, it will be easier for the witness is you would ask one question at a time, you are asking many questions at the same time. It may be simpler for him if you ask one question at a time, not several questions at the same time.

MR FORTUIN: I am sorry. The question is, when you were ordered to go on this particular mission, did they explain to you that when it is finished, where you should go to, where you would be picked up, what time you would be picked up, who will pick you up, etc, etc?

MR MADUNA: No, that was not explained to us. But Tinage, the one who was leading us, is the one who knew everything. He was the one who was leading us throughout the operation, I never got that information, I never got that explanation.

MR FORTUIN: I see. So, you went there and you didn't know in what room you would be entering the house and you didn't know what the escape route would be after you had finished your mission?

CHAIRPERSON: It is very simple you know. He had been led there by Tinage ...

MR MADUNA: That is so. I was expecting an order about everything that would take place there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know where Tinage and Kamagen are now?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: It is my instructions that they are presently in prison, both of them. Would you perhaps know about that?

MR MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I will put it to you that you were a person that was hired by Mr Nongwe to eliminate my client, Mr Depoutch Elese, for which you would have finally rewarded.

MR MADUNA: No Sir, the person who gave you that information, gave you the wrong information, that was not the case.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I also put it to you that Tinage was a member of the ANC, his mother is still a member of the ANC and that you were no more than a gun for hire.

MR MADUNA: I am not sure whether you want me to give you the answer, but I have already given you the answer that that was not the case.

I don't think that a member of the Task Force has got the right to be hired.

MR FORTUIN: I've got no more further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to re-examine your witness?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Maduna, how far have you gone at school?

MR MADUNA: Standard 3.

MS GOSO: Can you read newspapers?

MR MADUNA: No.

MS GOSO: Did you know whether there was a conflict in Crossroads during the time of this incident or not?

MR MADUNA: No.

MS GOSO: Can you please inform the Amnesty Committee what did you know yourself, what did you know about and where did you get it from?

MR MADUNA: All I knew was that the members of PAC were being attacked, they were being killed by the gangster members at Crossroads.

MS GOSO: Where did you get the information from?

MR MADUNA: That information I was told by Wella and Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I didn't hear the names please, Shaun and who else?

MR MADUNA: It was Shaun and Wella.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS GOSO: Whilst you were in prison, were you ever visited by members of the PAC?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: Is the PAC well aware of your application?

MR MADUNA: Yes, the PAC members know that I have submitted an application, an amnesty application. The other people who also submitted another form to TRC, there are those who submitted my form to the TRC.

MS GOSO: And therefore the PAC as a political organisation, supports your application?

CHAIRPERSON: Where does that come from, as an organisation?

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said that he is supported by the PAC as an organisation? How does one come to the conclusion that the PAC as an organisation, supports his application?

MS GOSO: Can I rephrase the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MS GOSO: Does the PAC as an organisation, support your application?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MR MADUNA: They are the people who submitted my form to the TRC because I filled in my form and Mr Leklapa Mpahlele took it to the Truth Commission. Therefore Leklapa Mpahlele was appointed by the PAC to go on collecting the forms of the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Mr Maduna, you have explained to the Committee that it was Leklapa who filled in your application for amnesty.

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MS GOSO: Did you read it?

MR MADUNA: No, he read it and he told me about it but because of other things like the language problem ...[intervention]

MS GOSO: I noticed that - I am now Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, on page 5 of the bundle, and I am referring the applicant to paragraph 11(a). I noticed that Mr Mpahlele has put in there that this operation was carried out on behalf of the PAC's Task Force. Do you confirm that that is in fact in accordance with your instructions to me?

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat that?

MS GOSO: I am sorry, if you can look at page 5, that is the bundled booklet that I am putting in front of you, if you can look at paragraph 11 thereof.

To read for you that that paragraph states that this operation was committed on behalf of the PAC Task Force, and you are saying it is Mr Mpahlele who in fact filled in this form?

MR MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Ms Goso, just for clarity, wasn't really Mr Mpahlele simply writing what he was being told to write by the witness?

MS GOSO: Perhaps we can clarify that by putting that to the applicant for him to respond.

ADV SANDI: Mr Maduna, I understood you to say that Mr Mpahlele as he was completing this form, he was writing what you were telling him to put in the form, not so?

MR MADUNA: That is so.

ADV SANDI: So this thing here that says the operation was carried out on behalf of the PAC Task Force, that came from you and not from Mr Mpahlele, not so?

MR MADUNA: That is so.

MS GOSO: Thank you Honourable Member of the Committee. If that is so, can we then proceed to look at paragraph 11(b). I have noticed that it is written down there that Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked. Did that also come from you?

MR MADUNA: Will you please repeat the question.

MS GOSO: If the reply that is put down on paragraph 11(a) came from you and Mpahlele wrote down what you were telling him, would you agree that what is in paragraph 11(b), and I read it for you

"Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked"

that must have also come from you?

MR MADUNA: What I told Leklapa Mpahlele to do, what I told him was that I got an order to go and attack the gangster members. It is what I told Leklapa Mpahlele.

MS GOSO: That portion, are you saying that that portion did not then come from you?

MR MADUNA: Which one, what does it say?

MS GOSO: It says Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked.

MR MADUNA: A member, any member of the Task Force, when being attacked, that member will have to defend or protect himself, therefore Sipiwe Mqweso issued that order for us to go and attack the gangster members, who were attacking the PAC members.

MS GOSO: I don't know if I am reading you correctly, say so if I am not. You seem to be saying that your order was to go and attack there, because the members of your organisation had been attacked, and that is what this was referring to?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: That is the end of my re-examination.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

MS GOSO: I may indicate at this stage to the Chairperson of the Committee and the members, and my colleagues, that we wish to indicate at this stage, that we do intend to call someone from the Regional Leadership of the PAC to give evidence in relation to membership, in relation to the applicant being a member of the PAC.

Unfortunately he is out of Cape Town at the moment, but we wish to indicate at this stage that although we had indicated earlier that we were not calling any witnesses, it has since become clear that that would be an important aspect to pursue.

CHAIRPERSON: When would you be calling him?

MS GOSO: I could suggest to the Chairperson and the members of the Committee, that perhaps I would need an adjournment to call him and find out when he would be coming back. He is in the Transkei at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to find yourself in some difficulties, we don't have endless time at our disposal, constituted as we are.

MS GOSO: Perhaps, I am trying to say Mr Chairman, to ask him to come back as soon as possible, so that I can inform the members of the Committee when he would be back in Cape Town. I intend asking him to come back immediately, not waiting for him to come back from where he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us to stand down now so that you can make enquiries, is that it? Is that what you are saying?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. We will stand down, and as soon as you are ready to tell us, we will stand down.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to that?

MR FORTUIN: No Mr Chairperson, no, no objections

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will stand down and you will call us as soon as you are ready.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

WITNESS STANDS DOWN

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, I have during the course of the indulgence that the Committee granted me, tried to get hold of the witness we intend to call. He is away in the Transkei attending a funeral of a relative at the moment. We could not succeed to get hold of him, his phone is closed, although earlier on we had contacted him and he had indicated his willingness.

Therefore the only question that is standing out at the moment is when would he be here, and we are going to try everything we can, that he should be here by Thursday, to come and give evidence to the Committee. If he is not here by Thursday, we will find someone in the regional structure to take his place.

I now would ask the Committee to lay to rest the applicant's case for a while.

MR MAPOMA: The next matter is set down for tomorrow Mr Chairman, starting from tomorrow up until Friday, but as I look at the applications Mr Chairman, I can just speculate Sir, that they can take about three days, those matters. There are three applicants involved in those matters, and the incidents are quite interlinked, so there is a possibility that in three days, those applications would be getting to a finish.

CHAIRPERSON: May I suggest that if it transpires that the witness you propose calling, cannot be here and if it is at all possible for you to find some other member of this large organisation who might be able to give evidence just on this one aspect, isn't it you are really wanting to establish evidence about the membership of the applicant? If that can be achieved by some official of that organisation, could we do that?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what we are currently working on.

CHAIRPERSON: Because basically all, obviously the witness is not going to be able to come and tell us details of the operation in which this applicant was involved in, it is merely a question of his membership of the organisation and if we can, if it is at all possible, to deal with that, we should endeavour to do it.

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what we undertake to work on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, you will make your best endeavours to try and see that we can achieve that please.

MS GOSO: Certainly Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Very well, Mr Fortuin?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, I call my first witness, Depoutch Elese.

CHAIRPERSON: Can the applicant take another seat in the meanwhile?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Elese, for the purposes of the record, would you spell your full names?

MR ELESE: Depoutch: D-E-P-O-U-T-C-H.

CHAIRPERSON: Depoutch?

MR ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And surname?

MR ELESE: Elese. E-L-E-S-E.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I believe that you are a member of the ANC and that you are currently a councillor in Crossroads, but I believe you have got other titles as well, serving in other structures. Can you just explain to the Commission what you do at the moment?

MR ELESE: At the present moment I am a Councillor helping Crossroads in ...[indistinct]. I am also currently serving at the Cape Metropolitan Council in the Department of Human Resources and I am also serving in the WCLGO, the Western Cape Local Government Organisation. It is where all the local authorities are being represented, I am in the Executive at that structure. I am still an ANC member.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I believe you also were in exile for a time?

MR ELESE: Yes, I have been a member of MK, I got my training in Angola and Kibashe. I came back to the country, where I became involved at Branch level in Crossroads at Unathi Section. I stayed with my uncle at that time. I was elected to be the Chairperson of the Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson of what branch?

MR ELESE: Of the ANC at Unathi Branch, which is now known as Bundubakhi Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you heard the evidence, the testimony of Mr Maduna saying that there was conflict between the PAC and gangsters that were attacking the PAC. Do you agree with that?

MR ELESE: I am very much disappointed and very much distressed what is being said about the applicant, saying that there was a gang in the area. There was absolutely nothing like that.

As I know it was a conflict within the structures of the ANC, where Jeffery Nongwe was a Chairperson of the ANC at Section 4 Branch, also a Chairperson of WCUSA, Western Cape United Squatters' Association.

MR FORTUIN: Can you also explain to the Commission, what was the basis for the conflict in Crossroads at that point in time, you say there was a conflict between the ANC in the area?

MR ELESE: Yes. The conflict was around the housing issue, where they were supposed to develop Section 1 to put the infrastructure for houses, but instead of putting the houses, Jeffery Nongwe was going to put a Site and Service, which a person would move from shack to shack, only to get a service, only to put toilets, flushing toilets, and it was not the will of the community to put that.

People were saying they need to get out from a shack, to go to a house. That thing was manipulated by the CPA, a person who was dealing with the development was Mr Fanie Naude from the CPA.

MR FORTUIN: As far as your recollection goes, there was no gangs that actually were attacking the PAC in this vicinity, this area?

MR ELESE: Yes, there was no gang at the area. The only thing was the conflict between the ANC and this incident occurred when people have been hired to assassinate me because I was a prominent person in the area, trying to advise people the betrayal which Mr Jeffery Nongwe was doing.

I was told that I have to be removed and I was harassed also by the police. Several occasions the house was raided and on that day, when the incident occurred, I found a strange woman from the Intelligence of the SAP. This lady arrived in between five and four o'clock. She was with a man, they were both white.

This lady introduced as saying she is Captain Meyer. The other gentleman, I cannot remember his name. They have been trying to brief about us the development and the problems which is surrounding the development and I told this lady she must move out and she is not involved with the political things, this is an internal thing of the ANC.

In my own recollection, this lady was coming to do a surveillance to see inside the seating arrangements, how is the door being opened, because the house was surrounded with a vibracrete wall, because the applicant, when they entered the house, they kicked the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you move on to that, who did this woman claim to represent?

MR ELESE: This lady claimed to represent the SAPA, the Department of Intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on. You were saying that you were of the view that she had come to do a surveillance of the inside of the house?

MR ELESE: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: Just earlier, before that, you said that people had been hired to assassinate you. Have you got any evidence of that?

MR ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come to that. Here is somebody that has come to surveil your house, what happened after that?

MR ELESE: What happened, a few hours ago, the incident occurred, at around about half past eight, when the family, they were eating their supper.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was that, was that your house?

MR ELESE: The house was my uncle's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR ELESE: My recollection is that these people had been hired by R100 000 plus a kombi, they are going to be given R100 000 plus a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is hardly information because nobody told you that.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, can you tell the Commission, I believe that somebody approached you and informed you that there was a plot to assassinate you? Is that correct?

MR ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on this day?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, can you just explain to the Commission, how you came to get this information that there was a plot to assassinate you and who told you and when this took place?

MR ELESE: I was told by somebody in the township who was working in the taxi industry. His name, his surname is Mr Machangaza. He started to phone me and then he arranged for me to meet with him and I met him at TOPCO training centre.

At that time I was doing, completing my standard 10 because I went back again to school at that time. He told me that I mustn't go at school because there is a plot to be assassinated at school. On that day, I didn't go to school.

It confirms after the incident occurred on that same day, because I didn't go to school, the incident, because they saw me, I didn't go to school, they decided to come to our house, that is why the surveillance was done by the police as I see it.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you were saying that there was a plot to assassinate you. As far as you know, who were all these people who were used in order to do these kind of things in the townships?

MR ELESE: Yes. There was a group who called themselves the Big 8. If you know that there was a friction between the taxi industry, there was Lagunya and Webta, after that it was changed to be CODETA and Webta.

When they started to come together to form one organisation, but on the other side the CATA people, a group of eight, defected and said they don't want the peace process and they called themselves the Big 8. Those people, they were guns for hire.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know the Big 8, who was the group that they normally supported in the townships? Who made use of their services?

MR ELESE: They had been used by Mr Jeffery Nongwe, and he gave them harbouring when there was a taxi war, taking them from the bushes at Swartklip to come and stay at Crossroads at that time.

MR FORTUIN: Okay, Mr Elese, Mr Maduna told the Commission that he is a member of the PAC, he became a member of the Task Team and that Tinage was also a member of the PAC. In your view, is that correct?

MR ELESE: I don't think this is a true reflection what he has said, as I know Tinage is not a member of the PAC. He was a member of the ANC. Even presently, his family, they are still members of the ANC.

Even himself, when it was in court, he denied to be a member of any political organisation, and in my recollection also, because where he stays, it is only a road which divide us, Crossroads and Nyanga because he was staying at Lusaka, at Nyanga.

I do my recollection even there, from the leaders of that area and they confirmed that he is not a member of any political organisation. He doesn't go into meetings.

He is only a person who has been hired to do violent and crime in the area, in the taxi industry.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, Mr Maduna testified that he wasn't aware of any conflict in Crossroads, wasn't aware of the conflict that we were speaking about. Do you think it is possible for somebody who lives in that particular area, if not in Crossroads, not to know what the basis of the conflict was?

MR ELESE: We can also call a person who was a Chairperson of the PAC Branch in that area, who is Mr Mketsu, at that time he was a Chairperson of the Branch of the PAC at Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please spell his name for me?

MR ELESE: It is Mketsu.

CHAIRPERSON: He is the Chairperson of which Branch?

MR ELESE: Of Crossroads PAC Branch at that present time, although now, he had defected from the PAC and rejoined the ANC. He defected from the PAC in 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you were also, you also attended the trial of the applicant, is that correct?

MR ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Is it correct if I say that 120 cartridges were picked up in the house after the incident, that that is what came out in the evidence during the trial?

MR ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So, as far as your viewpoint goes, there was no conflict between the PAC and the ANC, is that correct?

MR ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Do you think that politics played a role in the act that was committed on the 19th of March 1993?

MR ELESE: There was no political involvement.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, Mr Maduna is today in front of this Commission and is asking for amnesty. I read from his affidavit on page 3, paragraph 15, that he regrets the loss of life. Do you accept that and can you forgive him?

MR ELESE: Firstly I can say, I cannot forgive him and for the following reasons I am going to stipulate. One, he doesn't show what he had done, is giving the whole truth to us.

Secondly, his arrogance. Thirdly, the way he is speaking shows that he still hiding the information to this Commission and to the general public of South Africa.

Whatever has be posed to him, he is not answering correctly and as a person who is applying for amnesty, you should stand up and say I feel sorry for what I have done to the family and go to the family. Maybe you can, if he is afraid he will be accompanied by his lawyer, but he has never shown that to us, saying that what he is coming to say in front of us, he is still hiding something and he is still hiding the information that we have got in front of us, which we have dug on our own and he doesn't come up with the whole truth, how we can as a family ...

A person who doesn't even want to give us the whole version, and why he was doing this thing, he doesn't give us the motivation. The only motivation, it is an insult to our family saying that they were attacking a gangster. He is owing our family an apology on that. He is also owing not only our family, but to the general public of South Africa. That is an insult to our family and me personally, it is still hurting me.

As a person who left the country, trying to fight for this country to be freed and where we are today, and then he is still calling us gangsters. At the same time he is applying forgiveness from our family. As a family we are opposed, the only place where he can stay, it is the custody to stay out of the people because he is very much dangerous.

Even if he can get out, he will still continue and come up with stories of lying. He lied at the Supreme Court, he is still lying here. He is giving ferocious information.

In conclusion, as a family we are denying his amnesty.

MR FORTUIN: Have you Mr Elese, got any knowledge where Tinage and Kamagen is now at the moment?

MR ELESE: Yes, they are in custody. Tinage is in custody at Queenstown, in the same incident of gun for hire on the taxi thing, he has been sentenced 30 years there.

Kamagen was sentenced here in Cape Town, he is still around these prisons of Cape Town. I don't know in which prison in Cape Town, but he is still here. He has also been sentenced around gun for hire of the taxi thing.

That is why, all that he had said, it is a gun for hire, even the people who have been arrested, whom he was with then, they have been convicted of the taxi think and a gun for hire, that is why we are saying it was not politically motivated, but it was a gun for hire to kill our family. That is the thing.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, can I just get a brief moment with my client please. I can do it right away, I will just sit here, there is just one aspect that I just want to clear up with him before I ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us whether Tinage has any other names?

MR ELESE: His surname is Sicelo Naki.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that for us please.

MR ELESE: It is Sicelo Naki.

ADV SANDI: The other one, Kamagen, what is his full names?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Kamagen?

MR ELESE: I don't know his full names, but I know him while he was playing soccer at Nyanga stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he known by any names that you know?

MR ELESE: No, I don't know exactly his name, but I can dig that information and get it. I can go to CODETA where he was belonging and get his full names.

ADV SANDI: Maybe whilst we are on this, a couple of other names that has been mentioned. Wella, Sipiwe Mqweso, do you know those names, do you know those people?

MR ELESE: None of them I know.

CHAIRPERSON: What is CODETA?

MR ELESE: CODETA it is a taxi organisation which before was used as Lagunya.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, you spoke about the plot to assassinate you. Do you have an idea as to who is actually behind this plot to eliminate you?

MR ELESE: The Security Forces at that time, they had been raiding our family house day in, day out and the Commander who was doing those raids, it was Captain Knipe or Colonel Knipe. I don't know what his exact rank was. They even shot at the house to say that we cannot retaliate as they know that I was a member of MK, but we never retaliated.

CHAIRPERSON: That was in those days, but now, who would like to assault you now, who planned to assassinate you?

MR ELESE: Yes, the plan was to assassinate me, that is why they even used the Security Forces to go and do a surveillance. That is why they were doing several raids before the attack was done.

There was a lot of raids, it was 37 in one month. From the 1st of March to the 18th, there was a lot of raids in the house, it was 37 in that period. It shows the involvement of the police, it is there.

If you can investigate the make of an Uzi. An Uzi, it is an Israeli weapon and South Africa was corroborating at that time, with Israel. That is why they were getting Uzi's. It is not a South African made, an Uzi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I also believe that you were contacted by Mr Raymond Ndinisa who came and visited you, or rather that Raymond Ndinisa contacted you, that you had to go and see Mr Maduna in prison, is that correct?

MR ELESE: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: What was the explanation, why should you go and see Mr Maduna?

MR ELESE: When he phoned me, he was with Dumisa Makoma, because they were getting information from Mandla Maduna that it is him who had done the killing and he wants us to forgive him.

He said his application will be taken through the PAC structures and he joined the PAC while he was in prison. They will give ...[indistinct] information to the TRC so that he can get out. That information, I pass it to ...[indistinct] and also to the TRC to accompany me to go there, but the Investigation Unit of the TRC said it is them who is going to handle that, I mustn't go there. It ends there, I didn't go, up until today.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Raymond Ndinisa somebody that was known to you?

MR ELESE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the people that were in your house that night?

MR ELESE: It was Tienie Elese, Timothy Soga, Sicelo Pauli, Joyce Ndinisa and Ayanda Ndinisa and there were kids also. It was Florence, it was Mandisa, and Lydia. Those were the people who were inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they related to you?

MR ELESE: They were the family of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Tienie, is he related to you?

MR ELESE: He is my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: And Timothy?

MR ELESE: Timothy, he was a family relative.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce?

MR ELESE: She was the wife of my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: Ayanda?

MR ELESE: Ayanda was the son of Joyce's sister.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the people who were shot and killed?

MR ELESE: People who were shot it was Timothy Soga, Pauli, Joyce, Tienie and Ayanda. They were in the dining room. Three people passed away. Tienie was injured at the back several times and Ayanda was shot at the leg, it is the one who grabbed the button of the electricity to switch off. That is why Tienie survived because it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at home that home that night?

MR ELESE: I was at a meeting at that present time when the incident occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on. Any other questions?

MR FORTUIN: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GOSO: Mr Elese, as the applicant's representative, first of all I wish to convey my condolences to you for the event that happened.

Secondly, I would like to take your mind back to the time when Mandla was giving evidence. Would you agree with me that it was Mandla's evidence that in fact he did not know where the operation was going to be carried out and in his own mind, because he had heard that it was gangsters that were killing the members of his organisation, in his own mind he thought that they were going to where they were going to find the gangsters. Do you accept that as the position?

MR ELESE: I don't accept that.

MS GOSO: Would you accept if he comes and expresses his regret to you, if he stands up from where he is and I ask him as his representative, to express to you personally how sorry he is for this event, would you allow him to do that?

MR ELESE: I cannot forgive him, but I can allow him to say that.

MS GOSO: Can I ask for the permission of the Amnesty Committee to ask Mandla Maduna to go and present himself to the victim.

Mandla, would you be willing to go and meet Mr Elese and express your regret which you have stated in the affidavit?

MR MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: Please do so. Please stand up, go over to him, come forward and do so. ...(tape ends)

MR ELESE: ...[inaudible] got a different view of him, he was going to use his force.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the dispute between taxi operators is something that carried on on the one hand, and the dispute in the community, the political dispute between Jeffery Nongwe and others, was not related to the taxi disputes? Is that what you are saying?

MR ELESE: Yes, it was a separate thing between the taxi thing and the community thing. The taxi's, they were doing their own thing, on the other side, at that time the taxi were operating normally.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned CATA, what is CATA?

MR ELESE: CATA is a group of taxi people who didn't see them joining CODETA because in the first place there was no CATA, there was no CODETA, there was Lagunya and Webta and after their conflict, when the other group fled to stay at the bush next to the beach in Swartklip, when there were meetings which was arranged by organisations, that these groupings have to come together to form one organisation, and they formed this CODETA, but on their launch which was at Goodwood, a group of people whom previously they were at Webta, a group of eight stood out and said they are pulling out of these talks. They formed a Big 8 and then they formed this CATA.

That group, they were mainly operating from Nyanga, Crossroads to Bellville and Cape Town and Claremont, and CODETA now was only operating at Khayelitsha, to Nyanga and also to the towns. They were not involved in the community thing.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned if I understand your evidence, the attack on your house was not related to the dispute within the taxi business? Is that right?

MR ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Jeffery Nongwe have anything to do with the attack on your house?

MR ELESE: Yes, because after the incident occurred, there was a big braai at Nongwe's place, they slaughtered five cows. We've got information that they got the R100 000 and Jeffery Nongwe that time, he was having a 4 x 4 bakkie and in our sources, the bakkie he got from the CPA.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

MR ELESE: It is the Cape Provincial Administration.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on please.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chair.

Because - precisely because this group of eight according to your evidence, was a breakaway group from taxi operation, if we link Jeffery Nongwe with the Big 8, we have to go back to the taxi operation, first of all to see if there is any political content in terms of events there, and then we are going to go to the community related aspect, and also try and find out there, if there was any political content, because the basis on which we are going to move, we are trying to find out whether in fact there was any political content in these events that took place.

With that background, let us go back to the taxi operators, I would like to ask you Mr Elese, I heard you mention Lagunya and Webta, did these two groups have any political affiliations? Do you know, did they or did they not?

MR ELESE: They are not affiliated to any organisation because both, they were on the business and they were not affiliated to any organisation as far as I know.

MS GOSO: Because the information that ran in the media at the time, was that in fact one was affiliated to the ANC and the other one was affiliated to the PAC, would you disagree, totally disagree with that?

MR ELESE: I will disagree with that, because you will find out at CATA, they are members of PAC, they are members of ANC and then you go also on the other side of CODETA, you will find members of the PAC, you will find members of the ANC, but their faction was around route operations, not a political thing.

MS GOSO: Yes, route operations right, but what ran in the media is that although it was about business, it was about route operations, there seem to be a tendency for one area to be aligned to one political party and the other group to be aligned to another political party culminating in peace talks, resulting in CODETA which was an umbrella body, sort of encompassing people of various political persuasions. Would you disagree with that?

MR ELESE: When this CODETA thing was established, there was talks. All political organisations, PAC, AZAPO, ANC, SACP, SANCO, WCUSA and Civic Structures, it is them who were mediating these two parties and formed this organisation which was called CODETA, with all organisations, where they were involved in the peace process.

At the end of the day they were putting a name because they want to disband Lagunya, they want to disband Webta, at the end of the day, to have one name and with one logo.

It was this CODETA and then both organisations, they went and launched this organisation of CODETA at Goodwood Showgrounds, and all the taxi people, they were there.

MS GOSO: Any way, let us now move from the taxi operation, let us now go to the community aspect of the build up to the events.

Would you agree with me when I say in fact at that time, the community as a whole, was highly politicised, it was the pre-election period, wasn't it, am I correct?

MR ELESE: At that time, it was premature to say it was a pre-election thing, because we didn't have a date for the election, and it was still on the process of CODESA at World Trade Centre, at that time we didn't have an exactly what we are doing around politics, because we were still negotiating at Kempton Park, then the incident occurred.

There was no thing where we can say any organisation was gunning for membership or they were trying to mobilise around the election. It doesn't appear at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question also related to whether the community was highly politicised at that time.

The community as a whole, was it highly politicised? That is the question that was put to you.

MR ELESE: Okay, to answer that I want to pose also a question, because he said it was not highly politicised. By whom, because at that time, there were no politics where we were saying people have to join this particular organisation, each and every organisation was free because at that time, we had been having bilateral meetings with the PAC, how to operate at the area, because at that time Jeffery Nongwe, in 1990 and 1991, there was a burning of houses of Unathi Section where the incident occurred.

When we have been having talks to have peace, we have been doing those talks in conjunction with the PAC leadership in the area, we even called the Regional structure of the PAC, they were present, also the ANC.

At that time it was the Chairperson of the PAC, it was Mr Lagunya. There was no confrontation at that time between the ANC and the PAC, there were good relationships at that time between both organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that answer your question?

MS GOSO: I need to take it a step further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS GOSO: Mr Elese, all I am trying to find out in my question is, if in your view there wasn't a lot of political activity in the community at the time. What I am getting at is even on a question of housing, around that, there would be a lot of political activity.

I am also trying to say to you the fact that you had a member of the ANC defecting, that in itself would give rise to a - I mean that is political in content and context, that in itself is political.

What I am trying to bring to you, is to say in fact this housing issue itself, was surrounded by a lot of politics, because the community itself at that time, was highly politicised, there was a lot of political activity.

MR ELESE: I will disagree because at that time the organisation members, when we were discussing the whole thing in Branch level. All branches of the ANC in the area, when something is still an internal thing, and you have your own view and the other one is having his own view, there was no fight between the ANC and the ANC, but there was different views within the leadership positions.

The whole incident, it was not deeply politicised and around the township, it was not politicised at that time, because of Mr Jeffery Nongwe, who was a power monger, who want to control everything, then he see himself that he wants to enrich himself by this development, because those people who are saying they need from a shack to a house, now they are coming with a view that they are saying we need to come up from a shack to a house, and he want people to go from a shack to a shack only a Site and Service, because the CPA was championing that thing, people have to move from a shack to a shack and then because of he was given something behind closed doors, and then he wants everybody to agree on that.

That is why even the Goldstone Commission features before the whole incident, went to investigate thoroughly, we need an outside body to investigate, that is why the ANC brought even to its members to be investigated by the Goldstone Commission. That is why the finding was that it is only a power monger which was done by Jeffery Nongwe, not to involve other political organisations, but internal thing.

That is why at the end of the day Jeffery Nongwe, on that same year, he was expelled from the organisation because his attitude and the way he was dealing with the things, and he doesn't follow the policies of the organisation.

MS GOSO: Look Mr Elese, you yourself, you are a political leader in your own community, housing itself is a very important political issue, politicians base their election ...[indistinct] on housing, so how can you be so certain that this particular incident and at that time, was not politically charged at all, because even as you are giving evidence, you keep on touching on political issues, political atmosphere?

Don't you think that there was a political content, this whole incident was politically charged in some way?

MR ELESE: No, I cannot say it was a political thing. If you are within the organisation and you have a right to differ from one person to another, but it doesn't say the same structure, if I differ from one person to another, I have to go and hire people to assassinate the group which is differ from me. I can make an example.

When the President of this country, he was at a conference of the South African Communist Party although having ...[indistinct] membership, he differ when around the gear, the Communist Party was putting their line and he stood up and slashed it, but he never take arms and said if you are differ from me, I will make it a point, I am going to assassinate you because you are differing from me.

That point doesn't feature, if you differ from one organisation, you differ in views, but it doesn't say you have to kill those who are differ from you.

MS GOSO: It doesn't say but that is something that happens often within the political atmosphere, isn't it?

MR ELESE: But at this instance, it is a different situation.

MS GOSO: In your evidence you keep on referring to hiring assassins to carry out this operation. Do you have any evidence that they were hired? Apart from your sources, is there any evidence that the Committee can rely on that these were hired assassins?

MR ELESE: Yes, there are people whom we can call to come and testify here. And also we can get the information through the police, because it was them who were investigating, who was doing the overall thing. They will tell us that the incident was not a politically motivated thing, but it was only a pure criminality.

MS GOSO: We are going to have a political organisation here which is going to own up and say that the applicant was a member of the organisation, a member of their Task Force. They have written a letter to the Investigation Unit of the TRC to say that this was their member, and this member was, he was part of their Task Force. Would you against the political organisation when they say that?

MR ELESE: I will go against that in these reasons. Because they want to claim now a victory around the whole thing and get a political side because the applicant didn't prove to us that there were people who have been attacked by a gangster in Crossroads. There was no name whom you mentioned saying that so and so was attacked by a gangster in Crossroads, so and so was attacked by a gangster in Crossroads and each and every gangster have a name.

He didn't even say it was Americans, Chicago's and etc. He was keeping on saying it was a gang. As a person who was staying next to Crossroads, a road which divides, he should know everything that is happening in Crossroads.

Even if you cannot read papers, even if you cannot, you are not watching the TV, by mere fact people are talking in and out, and as a member of a political organisation, which is claiming, you are eligible to attend meetings, general meetings of your Branch and everything, it is being reported to your Branch.

Me, I was a member of MK. 50 percent was politically and 50 percent was military, because as a soldier, in the liberation movement, you have to understand the politics. Each and every attack which you are doing, you have to be given a motivation why you have to carry that particular incident, so that at the end of the day, it must be linked with the politics.

In this instance, he is keeping on saying the order was that to attack a gangster, who was attacking PAC members. As a person who was staying opposite the road, he should know how many people have been attacked by the gangster, and he is supposed to gather information himself as a person. Are these gangsters armed, what arms are they having, these gangsters? Are they having knives, are they having firearms? He is supposed to know that, but in this instance he didn't come up with those information to this TRC so the TRC can believe on him based on the facts which he is putting on the table, but he was keeping on saying, the instruction which he got, is to kill people, is to attack and even on those instructions, there was an instruction that said that they have to defend themselves, but when he was answering, he was giving information which is contradictory from one another. That is why I am saying the whole thing, it was not a political thing, but it was only a gun for hire.

MS GOSO: Mr Elese, these proceedings are not finished yet. I would like to hear you saying that if this information is provided later on in the hearing and with the applicant having expressed his regret with you as he has done, you would be willing to forgive? Would you? If you are provided with the information which members of the PAC organisation were attacked, during the course of these hearings, if that information is given to you, that is number one.

Number two, if you read applicant's affidavit, he is saying there his instruction was to follow Tinage to a certain house. He had no knowledge who lived in the house. He thought in his own mind that this is where the gangsters would be, and it is in that context that I understand him extending his apology to you. If you are provided with this information, would you be able to forgive Mr Elese?

MR ELESE: I cannot forgive because one, the information which he is going to be providing, he has to prove to me that Tinage was not a member of the ANC, because in my understanding Tinage was a member of the ANC and he knows our family.

Not only me and also this Victor Sam who brought the bag, he knows our family. That is why I said we will need at the end of the day, also them to come and say to this, to come and testify to this Commission, say publicly that our family was a gangster, because they know our family and even me, I know them personally, even before the incident occurred.

Both of them, in the 1980's, I went schooling with them unfortunately. That is why they have to come up and explain to the TRC that our family was a gangster.

CHAIRPERSON: Beside Tinage, who else?

MR ELESE: It is Victor Sam which has been written here. I know him personally. I went with him schooling in the 1980's. He cannot come publicly and say our family was a gangster and they were staying in Crossroads, both of them in Section 4, where Mr Jeffery Nongwe was staying.

They were serving also in that Branch as members of the ANC at that time. Unfortunately Mr Sam, he was working with Pauli at one place in the electricity thing, firm. That is why in my mind I cannot figure these things.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Elese, as I understand the evidence of the applicant, he doesn't say that your family were gangsters. He says he was led to a house which he believed genuinely to be occupied by gangsters. He himself has no personal knowledge of that fact that in fact, gangsters lived there. He was led there by somebody else who was supposed to know.

He is the one who is before this tribunal at the time. Now, what is it going to help to call the other people to prove that your family is not a gangster? Nobody is likely to come here and say your family is a gangster in any event.

I think we should just concentrate on the evidence of the applicant, what he says and whether you believe him. If you say that I believe that he must have known that they were coming to kill my people at our house, you must say so. He has told the Committee here that he didn't know, he was led by somebody who was supposed to know.

MR ELESE: In that instance, I can say if you are living in a township, a road opposite another township, everything which is happening on the other side, you have to know. As me standing here, I know what is happening in Nyanga, I know the gangsters who are there.

I even happen to know even things which are happening even in Gugs, which is far from Crossroads. Because as a member of the organisation, you are having meetings. You are having Branch meetings and all the Branches are being met and you are being briefed what is happening to each and every particular township.

At this instance, it is supposed to work the same in the PAC. What is happening in your neighbour, you are supposed to know, but in this testifying, the applicant he said he doesn't attend meetings of his own political organisation.

That shows to us he was not serious to be that particular member of the organisation, because as a member, as a loyal member, you are supposed to attend meetings of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think that you must draw a distinction between whether he is a loyal member, whether he is a painstaking member, or whether he is just a nominal member, that follows the organisation, whatever the organisation decides.

He probably takes no part in the decision making process of his organisation, but he is just a hanger on of the organisation, that could be so, you see? My colleague here puts it to you on this basis.

He is not saying that your family were gangsters, he merely says his instructions were to attack the gangsters, because gangsters were attacking PAC members. He was taken to a house and he was told that this is where the gangsters were. That is the basis on which his case rests, do you understand?

He relies on Tinage as the man who led them to this house. Tinage is not here, we don't know whether that is the truth, we don't know whether Tinage was at your house on that day or not. So there are gaps. We have to listen to his story and we are listening to you, but I think that because you are well informed about your organisation, because you are a publicly interested man, there is a likelihood that you are better informed than he would be. He has had a modicum of education, maybe he doesn't follow the gossip in that area well, and so on, we make some allowances for that.

Is there anything new that you would like to get from this witness Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions that you wish to put?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Sir, just one or two.

CHAIRPERSON: Quickly, let's hear it.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Elese, was there any relationship between Mr Nongwe and the PAC?

MR ELESE: Yes, I can say that.

MR MAPOMA: Can you expatiate on that?

MR ELESE: He was having some meetings with the PAC in that area. He was meeting with them regularly on the basis of WCUSA because he was a squatter leader and he was also holding as a Chairperson of WCUSA although he was also a Chairperson of the ANC, he was also a Chairperson of the civic structure in the squatter area.

On the other side, in the houses there was SANCO where members of the two political organisations are meeting, where the incident occurred. Even on that other side, we have been having relationship with the PAC, we have been having bilateral meetings, meeting with the PAC because around this development thing, we have been meeting with them regularly and forward our things as a joint thing which is coming from the houses and how we see the development of the area.

MR MAPOMA: When was Mr Nongwe expelled from the ANC?

MR ELESE: He was expelled in 1993, after this incident, and there was a Commission which was done by the organisation and it was led by Vincent Diba. He is now in Province, he is a MEC here at Cape Town. He was the person who was investigating the whole thing within the organisation.

MR MAPOMA: Now between ...[intervention]

MR ELESE: At the end of the day, when the findings of the organisation was found, then he was expelled.

MR MAPOMA: Let me just get this clear, between Mr Nongwe's expulsion from the ANC and the incident of the attack at your family, which one happened first?

MR ELESE: It was the incident occurring at our family.

MR MAPOMA: So, when you were attacked, Mr Nongwe was still a member of the ANC?

MR ELESE: He was still a member of the ANC, he was a Chairperson of the ANC at Section 4 and he was also a Chairperson of WCUSA.

MR MAPOMA: In your evidence you seem to dispute that the applicant was a member of the ANC. Is it your evidence that you dispute that he was a member of the ANC?

MR ELESE: The applicant?

MR MAPOMA: I am sorry, sorry Chairperson. Do you dispute that the applicant was a member of the PAC?

MR ELESE: Yes, I dispute that because on the basis of the information which I've got from court firstly when he testified that he is not a member of any organisation, and also I have made my own investigation, where he stays at Lusaka at Nyanga. Then I also investigated there, then I found that he was not a member of any political organisation, even there. He was only working in the taxi.

MR MAPOMA: Now, I've got a letter here from the PAC which I would like you to have a comment on. I am sorry Chairperson, for not having handed in this letter as part of the bundle, but I think now at this point it may be relevant to a certain extent. I would like to hand it in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: This letter will go in as Exhibit A. Yes?

MR MAPOMA: I would like to have your comment on that letter. This letter, the general content of it is that the PAC claim the applicant to be their member at the time he was arrested and convicted, what is your comment on this?

MR ELESE: My comment is that as you see a letter first, the person maybe was misinformed, because if you see down there, the person that signed Mr Louiso Ngwayo, he is from Gauteng Province. Why the Regional Coordinator of the PAC was not here because they are saying Gauteng Provincial Coordinator. Why the Western Cape was not writing this letter?

Maybe they want to dodge, maybe they want to hide something, that is why they are using a Gauteng person, why not a Western Cape.

MR MAPOMA: During the trial of the applicant, was there any demonstration of any kind or support of some kind from the PAC that was demonstrated at the trial?

MR ELESE: There was no support from the PAC, who went to the trial to picket firstly outside the Supreme Court, there was no such thing.

It was only his own family who went on the trial, his brother and his wife, that were the only people who went on the trial from day one to the last day.

If the PAC is claiming, they were supposed to picket outside the court, they were supposed to hear the deliberations of the Court, but that didn't happen in this instance.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Now, you said you know Victor Sam. To your knowledge, to which political organisation did he belong to during the period when you were attacked?

MR ELESE: At the time Victor was an ANC member, although now recently, he have joined the UDM. In my knowledge he never became a member of the PAC, he was a member of the ANC, recently now, he have joined the UDM in this year.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mapoma.

Okay, this Victor Sam, just to get more clarity about his involvement in all this, when Nongwe left the ANC, did Victor Sam go along with him, did he join forces with him, what is his position?

MR ELESE: As far as I know, he is an organiser now from the UDM. He was just an ordinary member in the ANC.

ADV SANDI: He did not follow Nongwe when he left the ANC?

MR ELESE: He didn't leave when Nongwe was expelled. He stayed with the ANC up until this year when he left the ANC to join the UDM. Nongwe was expelled long ago.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to say anything just by way of a comment, the relationship between Nongwe and Sam during that particular time?

MR ELESE: He was very much close to Mr Nongwe at that time. He was loyal to him.

ADV SANDI: How did he show his being loyal to Nongwe?

MR ELESE: At that time, he was a bodyguard of Nongwe. Even when he went to meetings, he was with him, looking after him and then he will drive him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FORTUIN: Just one or two questions. Mr Elese, is it strange for the political organisations to meet with other constituencies in their particular area, like say for example at Unathi, if there is an organisation, a civic structure, would there be regular contact between the ANC and that structure or structures?

MR ELESE: A civic structure, it is taking all political organisations, whether you are ANC, IFP, National Party, UDM which is now presently, but the civic structure, all those people will be inside that particular organisation. It is dealing with the day to day issues of the community, not looking the political affiliation of any individual.

MR FORTUIN: Was there any ANC structures in the area that Mr Nongwe controlled? ANC Branch, I mean?

MR ELESE: He was the Chairperson of Section 4, ANC Branch at that time, and he was also a Chairperson of WCUSA.

MR FORTUIN: So, it wouldn't be strange if there is a meeting between Nongwe and the PAC Branch that was established in that area?

MR ELESE: Unfortunately in Crossroads the PAC was having one Branch in my area. They were calling themselves Crossroads Branch, they didn't have any separate Branches as the ANC. The ANC is having five Branches in that area, but the PAC is still having one Branch, even today because of their membership.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, is there anything else that you want to convey to the Commission as regards to your feeling about the amnesty application?

MR ELESE: I feel strange where the PAC, it is claiming a person because as far as I know, the PAC, they were against the system and I don't know the link between our family and the attack. When they have been testifying here, the applicant was saying they were attacking because they got information that this house, it is a gangster.

How many houses which the Task Force in the Western Cape have attacked, where there was a gangster? If this was the first house, why it was, they were targeting that particular one? In my knowledge, each and every area, even in Lusaka, there were gangsters, in Nyanga, there were a lot of gangsters, in Khayelitsha, at Guguletu, but why they went to attack at Crossroads and said they have got information that there is a gangster, the house which is people who are staying there, they are gangsters.

It is not clear to me up until today, even when I hear now this new deliberations which have come up here, when they say there was a gangster in Crossroads. I find it strange.

That is why I am saying the PAC maybe, the person who wrote this letter ... (tape ends) ... that is why they even used the Gauteng Province to write this letter, because why it was not a Western Cape region who is confirming the whole thing because in his affidavit he was instructed by the Regional Commander of the Western Cape, why now a person who is supporting of this document writing a letter, is coming from Gauteng. That is what I am finding strange to those basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have made that point already.

MR FORTUIN: Just lastly Mr Elese, do you think the Amnesty Committee should grant amnesty to the applicant?

MR ELESE: I don't think it is supposed to grant amnesty as the information which we have got today, it is not sufficient and it is contradicting the applicant himself, that is why to those basis, the whole thing, it was not politically motivated as I hear.

MR FORTUIN: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Elese, you are excused.

MR ELESE: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: As indicated earlier, can we make an early beginning tomorrow? Can we commence at nine o'clock or as soon as you are available and traffic allowing you to be here?

MR FORTUIN: I am quite sure we will be able to start at nine Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. This Committee will now adjourn and resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS