Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR BIZOS: ... between the person that is being led and his legal representative, Mr Chairman. These chummy discussions are not ...(indistinct - no microphone) my chair for one of them to come here, Mr Chair, so that we can ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I object to this, my client - this is a Commission, this is not a court case ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos, I know that usually they sit next to each other, even in huge halls the applicant and the ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Sorry, but this has not been my experience, we always put the passage between us and the witness, but I don't want to make a big point out of it. It has the effect of, Mr Chairman, sometimes them speaking too softly, which is not a problem here because of the smallness of the room, but also this consultation and showing documents. I know it's a Commission, but he's a witness and the legal representative, Mr Chairman, and there must be some distance between them, with respect.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, I certainly don't understand what Mr Bizos is getting to, is he suggesting that I'm going to be helping my witness answering questions? What is Mr Bizos' suggestion? We haven't even started and he's making innuendoes. My client's entitled to sit here, we're at the Commission, there might be times where I have to confer with my client, he might want legal advice under cross, are we going to then adjourn the proceedings for me to walk around that end and consult? There's no basis for this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can proceed as we are now. If it appears as if there's any assistance being rendered by showing documents without invitation or reference, then the matter can be raised again and we can see if we can make a plan.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, thank you. Chairperson, we were going to lead the evidence as we had discussed in chambers the other morning, by confirming the statement, but having seen what has transpired, we believe in the interest of the public who do not have these documents, my client's entire statement, subject to other questioning which will flow from me and obviously from the Commission, we intend leading his evidence by reading his statement which is before the Commission. Subject of course, Mr Chairperson, to me questioning my client on certain issues and thereafter obviously the victims, Mr Bizos, and all other parties, are entitled to question the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini.

EXAMINATION BY MR MARTINI: Chairperson, I call Mr van Zyl to lead his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just give us the reference.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Chairperson. It is bundle A and it appears at pages 75 to page 128, of bundle A.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you Chairperson. I shall continue.

"I, Abram van Zyl, declare hereby under oath

I live in Florida and own my own business in Sandton. I have received a summons, signed by Col Eager, during my release from detention and according to Section 29 of the Act of Internal Security. It is following on that summons that I am appearing here now and that I make this statement.

I confirm that no promises have been made by anyone to me and in particular, I confirm that I will not be used as a State witness or that any other guarantee has been given to me.

I confirm that no promises have been made by my legal representatives to me in any regard. After I initially considered using the privilege of self-incrimination, I decided to speak openly with regard to the subject of this investigation before this Committee in so far as it is within my knowledge.

On the 31st of December 1960 I was born in Tulbagh and completed my schooling at the high school of Tulbagh in 1978 and in November 1978 I joined the South African Police Force and delivered service as follows to the South African Police:

Constable, Bramley Police Station 1979 to approximately 1981. Constable at Jeppe Crime Unit for approximately 2 years and thereafter attached to Diepkloof Unrest Unit for a month after the Crime Unit had been disbanded. Sergeant and Warrant Officer from 1983 and 1984 at Detective Branch for Criminal Matters at John Vorster Square. Warrant Officer 1985, Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit and Lieutenant in 1987.

In 1988 I married and have a two month old son. During May 1988 I went from the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit where I was still a Lieutenant and I was transferred to Pietermaritzburg Murder and Robbery Unit where I was Second in Command of that branch, but before my transferral, Staal Burger, previously a Colonel in the South African Police and previously Chief of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit, he approached me and told me that he himself, Chappie Maree and Kalla Botha would be working for Matthysen Bus Transport Business. I was also informed by Burger that Matthysen was only a front and that they would work for the South African Defence Force at the division Special Forces for the South African Defence Force, that they would practically retain their ranks and that they would be paid attractive salaries. Burger said that I should have an interview with Mr Joe Verster who was the Chief of Special Forces. He said that himself, Maree and Botha would go along in a few days to speak to Joe Verster. I agreed.

It was during May 1988 that I held my interview with Joe Verster, whom I heard was a Colonel in South African Defence Force, as well as the Managing Director of the CCB, the Civil Co-operation Bureau, in the Ponti Building in Johannesburg. There I met Joe Verster and one Christo Britz.

Verster spoke to me alone in a room and told me that he was part of the South African Defence Force and that there was a unit, the CCB, within Special Forces. He indicated that these were citizens who operated along with the army and although their objectives were not spelled out at this stage in detail to me, I was told that this was in order to disrupt the enemies of South Africa. He informed me that South African Defence Force would establish an internal region, namely Region 6, in order to disrupt the enemies of the Republic of South Africa.

The following general motivation was put forward by Verster of which certain facts were known personally to me. During the last few years of the 1980's the emphasis in South Africa moved from crime related matters to security related matters. I was granted the opportunity to work with an elite unit of the Defence Force and this I regarded as a great honour. I was aware of the fact that the enemy of the Republic of South Africa at this stage had launched a serious onslaught on the country in order to usurp the Government. I was convinced, or of the conviction after my discussion with Verster that the Security Forces of the Republic were in a secret war situation with the enemy. It was a situation which, because of survival, had joggled my sympathy and interest. It was clear to me that the conventional manner in which the warfare had been done out of the country, was not sufficient and I would also like to mention that internal attacks by means of bomb explosions and others by the ANC and others had led to great loss of life and damage in the Republic of South Africa.

There was also the background of the internal onslaught from 1984 to 1986, within which attempts were made by the enemy in the Republic in order to render the Republic ungovernable by the internal actions. I, on a form, provided my proper name where I applied for the job and I was informed that I would go through security clearance and then that the army would get back to me afterwards. I was also informed that my salary would be more than I would receive at the Police, but the exact salary would later be supplied to me. I completed the form and handed it to Verster.

Later I was informed that I was appointed from the beginning of May 1988 and that I would receive a salary of approximately R3 500 per month. There was a written salary proposal made to me by Verster. I was informed that I would get a motor vehicle allowance whereby a vehicle could be bought worth R30 000, which was supplied by Matthysen Bus Transport to me. I bought a BMW 318i. I have to mention that the money was supplied by the South African Defence Force via Matthysen Bus transport. I also understood that a petrol allowance of 18 cents per kilometre would be paid and that my further expenditure during the course of my service would be paid by the South African Defence Force as part of my work for the CCB.

I was also informed that there was a pension contribution of approximately R800 per month and in May or June 1988, I received one year's contributions. These contributions bought a policy which would see to my pension.

I would also like to mentioned that later I received a telephone allowance on a monthly basis from the South African Defence Force as well as my medical costs which would be paid by the South African Defence Force, therefore I was able to acquire a home loan via and with the assistance of the Army.

From approximately 1988 I worked for Matthysen Bus Transport, which was a front for the CCB. During the six months from May up to the end of 1988, there were meetings at Ponti Building with Verster and Britz. During this period of time, I met General Joubert of the South African Defence Force on two occasions in this Ponti Building. He was introduced to me by Verster and I understood that Gen Joubert was the Chairperson of the Unit which was known as the CCB. I was informed by Gen Joubert that he was a member of the Generals staff of the army and he was the Chairperson of the CCB. We were also informed that there was a code of conduct between the army and the South African Police where a member comes from the one institution to the other institution and there would be some time upon which he would not actively become involved in incidents, in order to avoid any problems, so therefore we would not be active for the first six months. During January 1989, we started functioning actively for the CCB, although certain smaller tasks were already performed.

During the months when I was inactive, I still received a salary on a monthly basis. I later understood that twice a year, a production bonus would be available for qualifying members. It was paid out in May and November. I qualified for the May bonus in 1989 and received approximately R3 000.

Tax was deducted from my salary by Matthysen Transport, approximately R406-00. The money was in an envelope and handed over in cash and usually the R406-00 tax was in another envelope and therefore from May 1988 I was a full-time member of the South African Defence Force, attached to the Civil Co-operation Bureau Region 6, part of the Special Forces of the South African Defence and in the service of the State and from that date, I received perks as I have mentioned.

Early in 1989, I underwent a course with Burger, Maree and Botha at the South African Defence Force farm outside Pretoria. The course lasted five days. There were several persons who gave us lessons during this course including Jaco Verster and a person by the name of Heine. During the course we were informed with regard to this unit and what we would do. We were informed that this unit and specifically our region were an Intelligence Unit, but that certain actions would be launched from information that was gathered, in order to disrupt the enemies of the Government maximally or entirely. Although from time to time we gathered information, it was told to us that our most important task would be the disruption of the enemy within the country, the enemies of South Africa within the country, as well as outside. We were informed as such about the structure of the CCB.

There was an outer circle and an inner circle. The inner circle were the members of the CCB, meaning that we worked for the Defence Force on a full time basis and we were aware that we were working for the Defence Force on a full-time basis. These were the so-called aware members and the outer circle, they were persons who were used by us who were not full-time members of the Defence Force, who also did not know that they were working for the Army or for the CCB and we referred to them as outsiders. These were the so-called unaware members.

The immediate unit within which we worked, was a cell and the inner circle comprised a number of members as indicated above, as well as a Co-ordinator, who was the liaison between the cell and the Managing Director of the CCB. He chiefly dealt with the financing, the instructions, the approval of projects and so forth. The Regional Manager was the Chief of the region and had direct contact with the Managing Director and the Chairperson. The Regional Manager was the Chief, in the immediate sense of the word, of that region and we received our instructions from him or from the Managing Director himself. We had to comply with his instructions. The Managing Director was in command of all the regions in general and was indeed in command of the CCB. The Chairperson was a member of South African Defence Force, Generals staff and the overall commander of the CCB.

We were also informed that our work would entail the gathering of intelligence, the submission of reports and the execution of instructions in the form of approved projects. The CCB was the priority class to enemies and the enemies were identified as South African Communistic Party, the ANC and the other banned organisations, their members both on left and right.

We were informed that the Regional Manager would draw up a report which would be handed to the co-ordinator and then the co-ordinator would hand it over to the Managing Director and he would deal with it further. If a project was appointed, from the information and report we would get to do a pre-study and then it would be submitted for approval. When the approval is obtained from the Managing Director and the Chairperson approved the project, later the Managing Director would give feedback with regard to the project.

We were also informed that the disruption of the enemy could, for example, entail ..."

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, I've been requested, if you could please just read a little bit slower, the translators who are giving a simultaneous translation, are finding that you're going a bit too quick and it's very difficult for them to properly translate simultaneously. It's difficult to translate and read. Just carry on for about approximately another five minutes then we'll take the lunch adjournment. Thank you.

MR VAN ZYL

"We were also informed that the disruption of the enemy could, for example, entail from the breaking of a window to the killing of a person and that it depended on the priority class. The organisation would identify targets, chiefly from available information, after which we would receive our instructions. Various non de plumes were used and we also had to take the oath in terms of the law or the Act on the Internal Security or the security of Intelligence. We were also informed that the CCB would be a covert organisation.

During the course we were told that we would recruit unaware members who would not be able to determine our real identities. Before the commencement of the course the name Andries Rossouw was given to me. I would also like to mention that during the course the Managing Director told us that we were indemnified from any prosecution for any acts of violence which we would commit during the execution of approved projects. We had to see to it that our actions could not be traced back to the Defence Force. The argument was put forward that the Defence Force and therefore the State had approved the projects for execution and therefore we would not be prosecuted because the country internally was also in a situation of war.

We were also informed that the acts against the enemy of the Republic, were aimed at the enemies of the Republic of South Africa. We were also informed that these enemies were persons who endangered State Security and against whom the South African Police could not act and that such persons were the targets of the CCB. These targets would receive priority class. I should also mention that persons of far right organisations who would endanger the State, would also be targets for the CCB, as we were informed.

Projects, we were informed, could be executed by aware members of the CCB after it was approved, when it was a low-risk project. Unaware members, also known as indirect members, would be used for the execution of high risk projects which were approved. The reason for this was that the conduct should not be traced back to the CCB.

During the course, it was repeatedly told to us that the four members on the course would form a new cell, who would be active internally and which would be known as Region 6."

Chairperson, if I may pause here, it would be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be a convenient period to take the lunch adjournment. If we could take the adjournment until quarter to two. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

My project name was Goldie and the projects which I undertook would be registered under that name. Our Region 6 also had a project name, "Choice". The administrative procedures which were prescribed were explained to us during the course and basically it agrees with the procedures as described by Brig Veil. We were also informed that Region 6 would be the only region that would be active internally, but we were not informed whether we would be the only cell in Region 6 and whether there would be other cells active in the same region. We were informed that the cells should not be aware of each others' activities. During the course, we were also informed how the presentation and approval of the projects would happen. An aware member would gather information from which a project could be given to him and in which who or what the target would be would be mentioned and full particulars would be given along with motivation. This is called a pre-study. Unaware members who were used during these projects, their names would also be mentioned with the part that such a member would have in such a project. A budget would then be approximated for the proposed project and this would be part of the presentation. The aware member who had to motivate the project, would sign it and this would then be handed over to the co-ordinator, who would give it to the Regional Manager. If the Regional Manager approved it, he would sign the pre-study and he would give it to the Managing Director with his proposals. If the project is approved, a so-called in-house would be held by the Regional Manager and the Managing Director with the member. During such an in-house, an oral presentation would be made by the co-ordinator to the Managing Director in the presence of the member, the Co-ordinator, the Regional Manager and the Managing Director. A discussion would then take place after which the in-house would be placed in writing and approved by the Managing Director and he would then present it to the Chairperson of the CCB. This presentation is known as the second in-house, which is held when the Managing Director, the Co-ordinator and the Chairperson are present. The Chairperson can approve or reject the project. All projects had to be approved by the Chairperson.

The concept red plan and blue plan was explained to us during the course. The red plan entailed those activities of the members that would be aimed at the promotion of the aims of the CCB. The blue plan entailed a private profession or business enterprise that every one of us had to manage and that would be a front and would also be a security arrangement. The arrangement was that gains by such a private enterprise, would go to the specific member.

The first blue plan that we had was Matthysen Bus Transport. My monthly salary was received by me in cash and then I would give the cash to Matthysen. The necessary income tax was gathered and a company cheque in the name of Matthysen Bus Transport was given to me. From May 1988 to the end of March 1989, I received my salary monthly by these means. During May 1988 an amount of R30 000 was given to Matthysen and he bought the vehicle with which I would do my work for the CCB, namely a BMW 318i. The registration certificates relating to the vehicle were in my own name, but I signed a blank change of ownership right, as a precaution for when I would leave the organisation. I could use my vehicle for the blue plan and also the red plan and I could also use it for private means. I kept a monthly travel book.

In 1988 I bought a pager which was supposed to be used for the red plans. I rented this pager for a time of 1 year at the cost of about R1 200 per year and the money was paid by the CCB. The aim of the pager basically so that unaware members could be contacted. I also want to mention that Matthysen had no knowledge of any of our projects or activities as far as I know.

At a stage, the Managing Director gave instructions that we had to get our own fronts and that everyone should not work with Matthysen Bus Transport anymore. On the 1st of March or the 1st of April 1989, I left Matthysen and I started my own business enterprise. The CCB, amongst others, paid for the rent of my offices and other secretarial services. My blue plan business enterprise was very successful. Later on I got someone else in the business but his expenses and his salary were carried by the enterprise itself. I also want to mention that my partner was not connected to the CCB although he was informed of this after I left the CCB, as I will describe underneath here.

The other members of the cell also started blue plans which were approved, after the blue plans had been presented to the CCB's Managing Director, and I am aware of it that the blue plans were supported financially.

I started acting actively in the CCB organisation from the 1st of January 1989. I was informed that the approval that we could now become active, came from the Chairperson of the CCB, Gen Joubert. I was informed that the Cape Province was allocated to me as the region that I would be responsible for.

In 1988 I had already visited Cape Town to recruit an unaware member that I could use. I informed my brother telephonically that I was looking for a person with contacts in the criminal world, who was a criminal himself and who could be an informer for theft at Matthysen Bus Transport. I did not inform my brother about my involvement with the CCB and he told me that he would be looking for a suitable person. Later he introduced me to a person by the name of Peaches and I introduced myself as Tinus to Peaches. I told Peaches that I wanted to meet him regarding business interests and we arranged a meeting, to meet each other at the Golden Acre in Cape Town. I went to a hotel in Cape Town where I met Peaches and where I introduced him to the Regional Manager. The Regional Manager had an interview with Peaches and Peaches was informed that we were working for a group of businessmen from overseas and that we were trying to protect the group's business interests in South Africa. Peaches shouldn't know that we were working for the State or the CCB. Peaches was asked if he had any contacts within the ANC or UDF and other radical organisations. He answered that he knew quite a lot of people. He was informed that our organisation - that we were interested in the organisation because their actions against the Government were putting the investments of the people that we were working for in danger and that he would be remunerated for the work that he was doing for us. Peaches agreed to work for us and then we gave Peaches R200 in cash. I told Peaches that I would contact him telephonically and he left the hotel room. Myself and the Regional Manager went to Johannesburg the next day by plane.

In Johannesburg I put the details of Peaches in writing and I signed the report with the Regional Manager and this was handed over to the Co-ordinator. The report contained full details of Peaches and I am of the opinion that the report was aimed at the Managing Director and that it would be in the file "Goldie". Peaches was an unaware member of the CCB, in other words, and about two weeks later I contacted Peaches from Jo'burg and he wanted to know from me if I was not a member of the Security Police. I denied this and I assumed that he believed me. I further told him that I would see him early in January in 1989 in the Cape.

In January 1989 I went by plane to the Cape in order to check Peaches' reliability, on instructions of the Regional Manager and also the Co-ordinator. In the Cape I contacted Peaches at a restaurant where we ate a meal and where I gave him a package that I sealed, with the instructions that he would have to go and deliver it at a cafe. I told him that there was a firearm in the packet which he should not open under any circumstances. Inside the packet, which consisted of a cardboard box, there were only two rocks. The instructions were that Peaches had to deliver the packet the next morning at 10HOO. Arrangements were made at the cafe that the packet would be received and that it would be taken and the next day at about 10HOO in the morning I went to the cafe, where Kalla Botha, who was with me in the Cape, went to fetch the packet. Botha gave me the packet and I was satisfied that Peaches had executed his instructions. I gave Peaches an amount of R200 for delivering the packet. I also informed him that I would contact him later and myself and Botha went back to Jo'burg the same day, or the next day.

A report concerning the project was made to the Managing Director in writing and the Co-ordinator also sent it through according to the prescribed manner.

From time to time I did contact Peaches and he contacted me. He used the pager that I kept with me. He used the pager that I had with me and he knew me as Tinus de Wet.

Early in February I received the names and addresses of six persons from the Co-ordinator and also the Regional Manager. My instructions were to confirm the particulars of these people who allegedly were members of Swapo. The names and addresses I cannot remember, but it was in the Cape.

My application for an amount of money I handed in and also the instruction that I received and in February 1989 I went to the Cape by plane where I met Peaches. I gave Peaches the particulars of the people with the instructions that he would have to check and confirm these particulars. It was still in February 1989 when Peaches contacted me on my pager and informed me that he had found one of the six persons and that he gave me particulars regarding an address in Athlone. I gave the particulars, or reported the particulars to the Co-ordinator.

At the end of February or the beginning of March 1989, I went down to the Cape again where I met Peaches in order to discuss the particulars of the above mentioned persons. He also mentioned to me that he had recruited two other people who would then be working for me. I received the particulars of the Swapo member orally from Peaches who then told me that the Swapo member had a microbus with which he daily transported ANC and UDF members to a terrorist hearing that was taking place in the Cape. He gave the particulars of the microbus and also the address where the bus would be parked. I also received the particulars of the two people that would now be working for me from Peaches, namely the particulars of two coloured men, Ismail and Isgak, also known as Gakkie. The same day I met the two people at the hotel and I presented myself to them as Tinus de Wet with the same version that I gave to Peaches. They indicated that they would work with me and I undertook to contact them again. I also gave them the number of my pager and I requested them to infiltrate banned organisations like the ANC and the UDF. I gave them each R200.

That evening I went back by plane to Jo'burg and I gave all the particulars concerning the member of Swapo and also the two members in writing to the Co-ordinator. The Co-ordinator gave me instructions about a week later to do a pre-study for a project and to hand it in, so that the involved microbus could be burned out. I did organise such a project and I gave it to the Co-ordinator, who then presented it to the Regional Manager. The proposal was that the microbus would be burned out by Ismail at the address where it would be parked in Athlone in the evenings. An in-house was then held and later I received approval for the project and also the cash amount of about R1 500 which would be paid to Ismail after the execution of the project.

During the first two weeks of March 1989, I went to the Cape where I met Ismail and I informed him of what he had to do. I gave Ismail particulars of the microbus and also the place. The instruction was that he would have to burn the microbus in the evening and that he would then meet me the next day when the instructions had been executed. The next morning at the hotel where I was staying, he came to speak to me and he informed me that the bus had been burned out. I wanted to ensure that he was telling the truth and I phoned Peaches who confirmed this fact. After I was satisfied, upon his confirmation that the bus had been burned out, I gave R1 500 in cash to Ismail and the same day I flew back to Jo'burg, where I gave a report in the normal fashion. I never again made use of Ismail after this incident. I also have to mention that I determined later that the bus was never burned out because such a bus did not exist.

A budget was handed in for the monthly salary of Peaches and a decision was made that he would receive R1 480 per month and upon two occasions, I paid this amount into his account and also on a third occasion where I handed it over to him. This was during March 1989 and I became of the opinion that the quality of Peaches' work was not satisfactory and a decision was made that he would only be remunerated for work that he did and that the monthly payments would not happen anymore. I discussed this with the Regional Manager. At a stage I, as a result of an instruction from the Regional Manager, requested Peaches to gain information in respect of prominent radical figures in the Western Cape. Peaches gave me particulars about Adv Omar at the end of March 1989. This information, amongst others, entailed that he was the Regional Secretary of the UDF in the Western Cape and that he was also associated with the Executive Management of various other banned organisations, but I cannot remember the names of those organisations at the moment. I was also informed that these organisations were fronts for the organising of unrest and violence in order to usurp the Government. The information that I got hold of was then handed over to the Co-ordinator in writing and a few days later, in a flat, the Co-ordinator confirmed this information with me and he gave me instructions to do a pre-study in order to eliminate Omar. Later I received instructions from the Co-ordinator to register a project in this regard. A week later I went to the Cape by plane where I met Peaches and then I told him that he would have to present a plan to eliminate Omar. Peaches suggested that he gets hold of two people so that they can shoot Omar in his house, that they could kill him in such a way and he also gave me the necessary particulars and I returned to Jo'burg where I then presented the project. It was signed and it was presented to the Co-ordinator. The Regional Manager signed the report and it was sent through to the Managing Director. A week later I was informed by the Regional Manager that I would have to attend an in-house regarding this matter. This in-house was held in the Rosebank Hotel, in a room where myself, the Co-ordinator, the Regional Manager and also the Managing Director discussed the matter and it was decided that Omar would be shot at his house with a Makarov pistol. The weapon had to have a silencer so that attention would not be drawn to it. Two unaware members that Peaches would recruit and who were unknown to me, would commit the deed. Peaches would remunerate the two people and he would receive a total amount of R15 000 form which he then would have to remunerate the two people. The CCB would give me a weapon and a silencer with a magazine and seven rounds. The Managing Director approved the project and he said that he would motivate it to the Chairperson.

A few days later I was notified by the Regional Manager that the project as presented was approved and that he would give me the weapon. A day or so later, I met the Regional Manager at his house where he gave me a Makarov pistol with a silencer and a full magazine. This was in a blue plastic bag. He took out the pistol and he showed me how it worked and I kept the pistol in my baggage.

I went to the Cape by motor car and I gave Peaches the weapon in the blue plastic bag in a briefcase. He told me that he knew how the weapon worked and I told Peaches that he would receive R15 000 and the next day I went to Jo'burg.

I received no rewards for this project or any other project, apart from my salary. In Johannesburg I orally told the Regional Manager about the progress of the project. Three days afterwards I was informed by Peaches, after he paged me, that he had found two people to do the work and that the two people would each receive R2 500 beforehand and that they wanted this amount of money. The Regional Manager then gave me instructions to fill in an application for an amount of R15 000 and I then handed it in with the Co-ordinator. Shortly afterwards I received the amount in cash from the Co-ordinator and I paid it into the bank account of Peaches in Jo'burg, in other words R5 000 of this money. The R10 000 that remained I put in the safe in my house.

Peaches would contact me by pager with the message: "The sun is shining", if the project had been executed. The project dragged on for four to five months and Peaches made no progress with the project. Upon this I asked Ferdi Barnard to monitor Omar during July, August and September 1989. I just want to add that my distrust around Peaches was discussed with the Regional Manager on more than one occasion.

Ferdi Barnard went to the Cape during July 1989. If I can remember correctly, that was for the first time and he met me there in a hotel. I informed Barnard regarding the approved project, that had to do with Omar. I mentioned to him that I was worried about the reliability of Peaches. I gave Peaches's particulars to Barnard and I also introduced Peaches to Ferdi Barnard. Later I was informed by Barnard that Omar arrived home at different times and that people would normally arrive at home with him. The problems surrounding the project, I reported to the Regional Manager and we decided to continue with the project. At this stage a lot of pressure was put on me that the Omar project had to progress and I went back to Jo'burg where, at about the middle of August 1989, I decided that Barnard would once again have to be sent down to Cape Town in order to go and monitor Omar again. In the meantime, during the cell meeting in August 1989 with the Regional Manager, the Co-ordinator, Botha and Maree who were present in a hotel room close to Sandton, instructions were given by the Regional Manager that myself, the Regional Manager and Maree had to go to the Cape to hang a foetus of an ape in a jam bottle in Desmond Tutu's place. We were informed that this instruction came from the Chairperson. Maree could not accompany us. Myself and the Regional Manager would then go on our own.

I received an amount in order to cover the expenses and I went to the Cape by plane on my own. The foetus in the bottle had already been received by me from the Regional Manager and it was in my baggage. Barnard was in an hotel in the Cape regarding the Omar project and I was informed that the Regional Manager would later come down to the Cape. In the meantime I told Barnard of the new instructions and I also showed him the foetus.

The morning, just after midnight, Peaches met us at an hotel and I told him to go to Bishop's Court, or to drive to Bishop's Court. Barnard accompanied me and the project was executed in the following way, upon guidelines that we received from the Regional Manager. There were eight long nails that would be doctored by a witch doctor that during the hanging up of the foetus on both sides of the driveway, would have to be hammered into the ground. The nails, along with the orders of the Regional Manager, were received. There was an unknown coloured man accompanying Peaches who drove the vehicle.

At Bishop's Court myself, Peaches and Barnard went over the fence of the plot and then I hung the foetus of the ape as described from one of the branches of a tree while Barnard knocked in the nails on both sides of his driveway. The nails were knocked in with the sharp side downwards. We went back to the hotel where I gave Peaches R200 plus petrol money. The next morning I reported back to the Regional Manager that the project had been finished. Because the Omar project was still continuing, Barnard would stay in the Cape and the following day I went back to Jo'burg by plane.

After a few days Barnard returned to Jo'burg without the Omar project having been executed. I received information that Omar had a heart attack and that he was at home and this apparently jeopardised the project. Barnard proposed that the project regarding Omar had to be postponed for a few weeks. According to instructions from the Regional Manager, I contacted Peaches and I asked him if he could get hold of Omar's heart pills and he told me that he would try and get hold of them. The issue of the pills was discussed with the Regional Manager in the presence of the Co-ordinator, Nick Botha and Chappie Maree, by me. There was another person who was present there whose name I cannot remember, but who was previously in the Medical Regiment of the Defence Force. He was responsible for the logistical support, in other words, he would help with the pills.

I did mention that an attempt would be made to get hold of a pill of Omar's and I was told by the Regional Manager to give the pill to the unknown person who was present. He said that they would make a similar pill that would look exactly like the pill that was given to him and that Omar, after he had taken it, would then die of a heart attack. The Regional Manager said that he would have to discuss the matter via the Managing Director with the Chairperson, seeing as there had already been an approved project concerning Omar. I then received an order from the Regional Manager to continue with the project and to try and get hold of the pill.

Shortly afterwards, during August 1989, I received two small white tablets from Peaches. I was informed that these were the pills that Omar drank for his heart and during the cell meeting I handed the pills in an hotel room to the person who was involved with the Medical Regiment. I cannot remember who was present at this meeting.

At the beginning of August 1989 I sent Isgak to South West Africa in accordance with an order from the Regional Manager, to ascertain details of about four vehicles with South West African registration plates. These numbers I received from the Regional Manager and I gave them to Isgak. I was told to give Isgak orders to get the particulars of these buses, in other words where these buses were parked and to monitor the movement of these buses. He returned from South West Africa and he gave me the particulars that I then gave to the Regional Manager. I understood that some of these buses were registered in the name of the South African Council of Churches. The particulars were handed over to the Co-ordinator by means of a report and Isgak went back to the Cape.

At the end of August 1989, approximately the 25th, I received an order from the Regional Manager that Isgak would have to go to South West Africa again and the particulars of one of the microbuses was given to me by the Regional Manager and I gave it to Isgak. The order was that he would have to go to Windhoek and that he would then receive the order there from the Regional Manager, through me. I remember that it dealt with one of the buses that Isgak would have to damage in Windhoek. It was not my project. Money was given to Isgak for his travel and also his accommodation costs. Isgak went to South West Africa by plane but the next day I was informed by the Regional Manager that all projects in South West Africa were stopped and that Isgak would immediately have to come back. Two days afterwards he went back to Jo'burg, as I instructed him to do.

In the meantime I had gathered information over a period of time of about one month, amongst others, by means of Isgak, in relation to the violent disruptions of the September elections in the Cape, especially the coloured elections. The information was in relation to a hall which was known as the Early Learning Centre in Athlone which was used by prominent UDF and ANC activists. Secret meetings were held there where deeds of sabotage and terror were discussed and planned against the State. It appeared that the UDF and ANC activists who, according to emergency regulations, who were under emergency regulation limits, were now under a new organisation by the name of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

The aims of this organisation were to try and usurp the coming elections and to disrupt the coming elections that would be held on the 6th of September 1989 in South Africa and my information was that the organisation was responsible for, or helped with the planning of several school boycotts and also deeds of terror which included explosions. My information was that the organisation was responsible or helped with the bomb explosions in Athlone Magistrates Court, which happened right next to the police station and also the Athlone Post Office. With the limpet mine explosions in the Magistrates Court in Athlone, two people who were purportedly there to set the mine, had died. The two people were, according to my information, members of the above-mentioned organisation. The Post Office that was damaged in the explosion was an election venue for the elections in 1989.

I also received other information, including documentation, which indicated that the persons who died in the explosions and other persons related to the organisation, were involved with the bomb explosions and that further bomb explosions were planned up to and including the 6th of September 1989 in the Cape. The apparent reason for the bomb explosions was the intimidation of people, in order to intimidate them so that they would not take part in the election that was also meant for the coloured people. Amongst others, I was in possession of a letter that the same organisation had written to one of the candidates in that election, Mr Alex Anthony, in which he was warned that he should not take part in the racist elections. All these facts were, on about the 10th of August, presented to the Co-ordinator during the pre-study, in written form, where the in-house was organised on about the 25th of August by the Regional Manager.

As a result of information that I presented, the destruction of the hall that is known as the Early Learning Centre, was identified as a project and I proposed that it be done by the placing and activating of a limpet mine. I actually - I did not want to use only the limpet mine because that would possibly lead to the loss of life and that is why I proposed that the limpet mine would have to have a detonation mechanism. The motivation for this project was to disrupt the members of the organisation or the people responsible for the bomb explosion in the Cape area and to give them a fright so that they would not continue with their violent campaign. The organisation had to be disrupted so that the planned violent campaign against the election and also the Government, could not continue. The aim was to prevent further deeds of terror and also possible loss of life in the Cape.

During the in-house all the documentation that I have just referred to and also the information was made available to the Managing Director. I asked that a remote control limpet mine be given to me through the CCB for the execution of this project. The limpet mine would be given to Isgak, who would then place it in the hall and he would then activate the limpet mine, although I would help him if problems occurred. Isgak, at that stage, in principle, had already agreed to help with the placing of the limpet mine in the hall. R30 000, via the Regional Manager, would be asked for for this project and the explosion was planned for the 31st of August 1989, during the evening.

On Wednesday 30 August 1989, I was requested by the Regional Manager to go to Protea Gardens Hotel in Berea, Johannesburg. There I met the Regional Manager, Nick and the person attached to the Medical Regiment in a room. The Regional Manager then informed me that the project of the Early Learning Centre had been approved and that the Managing Director had indicated that if one more bomb should be activated by the Kewtown Youth Movement, he would regard it as my fault. The Regional Manager informed me that a co-ordinator was on his way with a limpet mine and approximately three quarter's of an hour later, the co-ordinator arrived at the hotel with the limpet mine in a cardboard box. He showed the limpet mine with the remote control to me and demonstrated the function of it.

The limpet mine was a large grey Russian manufactured limpet mine, while the detonating mechanism was a pocket calculator with an aerial. The calculator would detonate the bomb by pressing the minus button on the calculator. I had never worked with any explosives before that and I was concerned that there would be loss of life because I was not an explosives expert. I then requested the Regional Manager and Co-ordinator for assistance and proposed that Botha go with me to the Cape so that he could handle the bomb because he had knowledge of explosives. The Regional Manager then said yes and he paged Botha."

MS COLERIDGE: May I just interrupt at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Ms Coleridge.

MS COLERIDGE: ... (indistinct - no microphone) we are currently busy with, you'll see that it goes page 90 and then page 92. I see that there's page 91 of the fax, there's 38, 39 is missing Chairperson, just for ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the paragraphs seem to follow.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson while you have this debate, can I go ask for amnesty outside quickly?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Martini. Sorry, I'm not following you. If you get to the bottom of this page, it's page 89, ...

MR LAX: This one here.

MS COLERIDGE: 39.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS COLERIDGE: I do believe we have a page there, but just ...

CHAIRPERSON: So it's page 91 that's missing.

MS COLERIDGE: That's right, Chairperson. We will make it available to everyone, if that is okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Mr van Zyl, do you have it?

MR VAN ZYL: I haven't got it.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're going to have difficulty reading it if you haven't got it?

MS COLERIDGE: We've got one copy so we can just give it to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if that perhaps could get across just until Mr van Zyl's finished reading page 91. Thank you very much and then we'll get it back to you and a copy will be made for everyone concerned.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson, I am indebted to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, if you can continue, thank you.

MR VAN ZYL

"The Regional Manager agreed and paged Botha, after which Botha arrived at the hotel where the mechanism of the limpet mine was explained to him. Botha agreed to be part of the operation and the necessary arrangements were made. The very same day, 30th August 1989, Botha and I departed for Cape Town in my vehicle, with the limpet mine in a cardboard box in the boot. The remote control I kept in an attaché case.

On the 31st of August 1989, we arrived in the Cape. We slept for approximately 4 hours and after we awoke, I called Isgak and told him to meet me that afternoon on the parking grounds of DF Malan Airport where I would hand over the limpet mine to him. That afternoon I met with Isgak at the Airport and Botha prepared the limpet mine. Thereafter, the bag in which the limpet mine was placed, was placed in the boot of Isgak's vehicle. I gave the following instruction to Isgak. He had to take the bag with the bomb and place it in the hall of the Early Learning Centre in a cupboard there. The instruction was that Isgak would take the bomb straight from the airport to the hall and that that bomb would be activated later, after all persons had left the building. After placing the limpet mine, he had to return to the airport to confirm that he had completed his instruction.

I then gave Isgak instructions to meet Botha and myself that evening at 7 o'clock at the Belville Holiday Inn. At the Airport and after Isgak had departed, I contacted the Regional Manager that the bomb had been placed and he informed me that the Managing Director would be informed. At the same time I arranged with the Managing Director that he would meet Botha and I on the 1st of September. I was planning to take leave and would arrive, with my spouse at Cape Town airport to collect my car for my two weeks leave, which I would spend in Cape Town.

During the course of that afternoon I decided that I would not hand over the remote control to Isgak. I was concerned about the fact that he could have placed the bomb at any other place other than the Learning Centre and that he would activate it at a place and time of his choice. I discussed this with Botha and we decided that we would go along in order to determine that the bomb was placed in the correct place.

The evening of 31st of August 1989, Isgak met Botha and I at the Holiday Inn. We, together in a vehicle, went to the Early Learning Centre Hall and by approximately quarter to Eight, we arrived at the centre. Isgak then pointed out the vicinity of the hall to us, as well as the parking area where vehicles of the members of the organisation were parked. We parked approximately 400 metres from the hall and it was already dark.

I sent Isgak into the hall in order to ensure that children were out of the hall because during the evening a karate class was held for children. He also had to determine which members of the movement had attended the meeting. He returned after half an hour and reported that there were no children in the hall and mentioned that all the management members of the movement were present in the hall. We drove to a street where we had a good view of the parking area and the hall. At approximately 9 p.m. the management members of the Movement left the hall and went to their vehicles. Isgak informed me that everyone had departed from the hall. We were approximately 30 metres from the hall. I then told Ismail to drive around the block, so that I could activate the mine. The mine was activated afterwards and the bomb exploded. Isgak took us back to the airport where he dropped us off and we left by aeroplane back to Johannesburg the very same evening.

On the 1st of September 1989, the Regional Manager and Maree met Botha and I at Jan Smuts Airport and I reported to the Regional Manager. The Regional Manager went to his vehicle and informed us that the Co-ordinator and the Managing Director would be informed that the project had been completed. I saw that he called someone. We then left for home from the airport.

At 10 a.m. on the morning of the 1st of September 1989 I met with the Regional Manager, Co-ordinator, Maree, Botha and Nick in the Rosebank Hotel in a room. This meeting was arranged by the Regional Manager and I handed over the pocket calculator along with my written report with regard to the bomb explosion at the Early Learning Centre, to the Co-ordinator. I then made arrangements that the Regional Manager would apply for a reward for Isgak and that the money would be handed over to me.

The evening of the 1st of September 1989, I and my spouse went to Cape Town by aeroplane on leave. We spent two weeks in Cape Town. On Saturday 2nd September 1989, I spoke to Peaches and Isgak at various times. I wanted to know from Peaches how the Omar project was proceeding and I anted to inform Isgak as to when he would be paid.

The following Saturday, 9th of September 1989, I once again had an appointment with Peaches and Isgak and I met them in the Cape. Peaches reported to me that Omar's movements were back to normal. I paged Barnard in Johannesburg and asked him to meet me on the 11th of September 1989 in Cape Town. I then asked Barnard to monitor Omar and he agreed. I only told him just to monitor Omar. The evening of 11th September 1989, the Regional Manager handed over R25 000 in cash to me. R7 000 of the R25 000 that was handed over to me was added to the R3 000 that was left of the Omar project so that there was R10 000. The reason why there was R7 000 added, was that Barnard was paid with this for the monitoring of Omar and for other tasks that he had performed. The R7 000 was added to the R3 000 of the original R10 000 which was in my safe and therefore I paid back R10 000 to the organisation. On the 12th of September 1989, I handed over R18 000 in cash to Isgak. The Regional Manager reported with regard to the application of the monies.

On Tuesday 12th September 1989 I met with Barnard in Cape Town and wanted to know how the monitoring of Omar was proceeding. I was informed that it was on-going. Later I met with Barnard and Peaches again and Barnard informed me that he was done with the monitoring of Omar and that he would return to Johannesburg. On the same day, I flew back to Johannesburg. Later I met with Botha and Nick at a hotel at the airport where I gave R10 000 back to Nick. The R10 000 was in regard to the Omar project. Nick then gave to me a white coloured powder in a small bottle. Nick informed me that the powder came from the Regional Manager and this had to be put into Omar's food because they could not make the pills themselves. The powder would also cause a heart attack to Omar. I took it and went back to Cape Town. On the same day I met Peaches at DF Malan Airport. I gave this bottle to him with the instruction that the contents had to be strewn over Omar's food. I never again saw Peaches, Isgak or Barnard thereafter.

After a week I called Peaches. He informed me that he could not strew the powder over Omar's food. I told Peaches to destroy the pistol and the powder and to cease the project on Omar as previously arranged by the Regional Manager.

A project where I was involved in the Cape was with regard to a printing press. I cannot recall the name of this printing press. I received information early in 1989 that the printing press was doing printing work for, amongst others, the ANC, the UDF, Cosatu and other banned organisations. The information was given through to the CCB and a project was identified that the place would be burned down. After an in-house with the Managing Director, the Regional Manager told me that the project had been approved and that this place would be burned down. I instructed Isgak to execute this project. Later he reported to me that the place had been burned down and he was paid R2 000. I heard later that the printing press was never burned down.

During March of 1989 I, the Regional Manager and Maree met in a flat in Johannesburg and I was informed that an in-house would be held with regard to a project that would entail the elimination of a man by the name of Michael Gavin Evans. He would be robbed at knife point and I was told to arrange with Peaches to come from Cape Town to Johannesburg and to bring another person along with him, in order to execute this project. Peaches came to Johannesburg and I spoke to him in an hotel room and informed him that Evans was the target of the project. The project was not my project, but the project of Maree and he continued with the project. I gave R2 000 in cash to Peaches in order to cover their expenses and it was arranged that Peaches would receive R5 000 to execute the project.

Later it appeared that the information with regard to Evans was not correct and that he could not be traced. I conveyed this to the Managing Director and he said that the project could not continue. The project was therefore ceased.

On Tuesday 2nd May 1989 it came to my knowledge that David Webster had been killed in an assassination attempt and I recall that I saw it on television news. A few days after the Webster murder, there was a cell meeting in a hotel room where I, the Regional Manager, Maree and Botha were present. We were waiting for the Co-ordinator. While we awaited the Co-ordinator, the Regional Manager said that he went and saw the Managing Director in connection with the Webster matter. He still said that the Managing Director was concerned about the incident and that the Managing Director suspected that our cell was involved in the Webster incident. I know nothing of the Webster murder and do not have any knowledge. I will repeat, I do not know anything of the Webster murder and have no knowledge that his murder was discussed in our cell or at our region. I had nothing to do with the murder of Webster whatsoever.

After I resigned from the organisation, the Managing Director requested me to speak to him. This was close to Verwoerdburg where I met with the Managing Director. He told me that there were problems regarding the Webster incident. He then asked if I was involved with the Webster incident or whether the Regional Manager or any of the other members were involved. I told the Managing Director that I was definitely not involved in the killing of Webster. I also told him that I did not know whether the other three members were involved in the incident. I gained the impression that the Managing Director was concerned and that he had no knowledge with regard to the Webster incident. I told the Managing Director that I believed that other persons were responsible for the act because I would have heard if our members were responsible. The discussion did not take very long and I was taken back by Nick.

At some stage before October 1989, I was informed by the Managing Director that I had to attend a second course during October 1989 but I informed him of my intention to resign. The Regional Manager was present as well as the Co-ordinator, Maree, Botha and Nick. They thought that I was joking, but I emphasised it and the Regional Manager was dissatisfied with this. He alleged that I had misused the organisation in order to establish my business. I denied this and I showed him that my production bonus for November 1989, that I would not take the bonus and I would - that I would not take my 13th salary cheque and my medical costs. I informed the Regional Manager that I was done with the organisation. I excused myself. I walked off and that was the last formal contact that I had with the organisation.

Later I returned the vehicle to the organisation, as well as other facilities that I had used of the organisation, for example a shredding machine, and a telephone scrambler. This I gave back to the CCB. I handed it over to Nick."

Chairperson, consequently from paragraph 62 up to paragraph 63, this dealt with specific questions that Adv Tim McNally has referred to Annexure A, were put to me. Unfortunately I do not have Annexure A here.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you confirm the contents of paragraph 62 as being what you said and as far as you're concerned, being correct?

MR VAN ZYL: I confirm that that is so and that it is correct, yes. And then I would like to continue with paragraph 63.

"During my leave in September 1989, I reconsidered my connection or attachment to the CCB. I realised that the country was entering a new phase of negotiation under the State President, Mr F W de Klerk. I was of the opinion that Mr de Klerk was prepared to speak to the ANC, which would mean that the internal arms struggle would be ceased and that Region 6's objective would become obsolete. The new approach with the enemy enjoyed my support and I looked forward to the day when the CCB's actions were no longer necessary.

In light of the abovementioned and on behalf of my family, I decided to cut off any relationship with the CCB in order to lead a normal life as a South African citizen, with the view of a future in a new peaceful South Africa. I therefore resigned in October 1989 from the CCB."

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, before these acts in respect of which you're asking for amnesty, what were your political objectives? You dealt with them in your amnesty application, if you could please just read that into the record.

MR VAN ZYL: I will accordingly read Bundle A, page 72 to page 74. It is Annexure B

"The actions referred to in Annexure A, I did with a political aim and for political reasons in the presupposition that a State goal was served, always in the execution of instructions, as set out underneath. I was a member of the Civil Co-operation Bureau, the CCB, and therefore a member of the South African Defence Force. In the Harms report, page 34, the circumstances under which I joined the CCB are set out in paragraph 6 to 24 of my affidavit and I stick to this. I specifically want to draw attention on paragraph 10 of my statement where I said that at that stage I had the opinion at that time as a member of the South African Defence Force, that the enemies of the Republic of South Africa were busy with a secret war against the Republic of South Africa. It was a situation which for survival had my sympathy and also my interests.

It was clear to me that the conventional ways of warfare at that time in the exterior of South Africa, was not efficient and effective and that steps in a secret way were necessary against the enemy.

In paragraph 22 in my affidavit I said that during the training course I was told by the Managing Director of the CCB that I would be indemnified and that I would not be prosecuted and the argument was that the Defence Force and the State approved of these projects and that I would not be prosecuted seeing as how the country was also in a war situation internally. I also summarised the situation like this.

I confirm hence that while I gave evidence in front of the Harms Commission, I also gave evidence to this effect and that I was not contradicted during cross-examination. See Harms Report, page 44, footnote 9. In this regard I would like to point out that other than the CCB, I did follow the higher authority of the State President and the Chief of the Defence Force and the Minister of Defence, and I also confirm that no personal gain was involved in my steps and that my actions always happened with a political motive. I saw my task as a soldier and a member of the South African Force, to protect the government of the day and also to maintain the existing State system. My steps were a reaction to the total onslaught against the government of the day and the enemies of the Republic of South Africa.

I will also respectfully propose that the findings of the Harms Commission would confirm that with my steps I acted with a political goal. I had no other political goal other than the protection of the government."

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Chairperson, I just want to deal with certain issues with my client now. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr van Zyl, when you joined the CCB in 1988, did you support any particular organisation at the time?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I think it is apparent that all Afrikaans-speaking or most Afrikaans-speaking white people at that stage supported the government of the day, which was the National Party, and it was also my point of view at that point.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, you stated that when you joined the CCB you went on a course, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: At the course, did the course entail you being enlightened on the structures that were available to the CCB? Any other organisations which could assist the CCB organisation within the framework of the State organs.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, because the CCB as such was a covert operation there were no details that were given to us concerning which support organisations we could use, but mention was made to us that the CCB did have an intelligence structure at its disposal and that the CCB had a facility at its disposal, which was known as the EMLC. That facility was responsible for the gathering of logistical support, for instance weaponry.

CHAIRPERSON: What does EMLC stand for, do you know?

MR VAN ZYL: I can't remember.

MR LAX: If I remember correctly it's mentioned in someone else's papers, something to do with electromagnetic component, or something like that.

MR VAN ZYL: Something like that, yes.

MR MARTINI: Thank you.

Mr van Zyl, you've heard today and throughout the week quite a lot of debate relating to the Harms Commission, the testimony that you've given here today at the Truth Commission, before the Amnesty Committee, is that the same evidence you've given at the Harms Commission?

MR VAN ZYL: That is the case, Mr Chairperson. This statement was prepared by my legal team at that point and this is the evidence that I gave since March 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: So the evidence which you've read now from the statement, which is now your evidence in this matter, is in certain respects somewhat outdated, I think you talk about having a two-month old child and that sort of thing. That child would now be 10 years old. And that you live in Florida, does that still apply?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson no, apart from personal situations that have changed, factually regarding the projects that I gave evidence of, the contents of that statement is still the same and correct.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Chairman. In effect what I'm dealing with is these acts that you're claiming amnesty for, the evidence relating to that is the same evidence as given at the Harms Commission.

MR VAN ZYL: That is the case.

MR MARTINI: Now when you testified at the Harms Commission, were you given any indemnity?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I also state that completely on page 1 of the statement, that no promises were made to me and that I gave the evidence because I felt that I wanted to cooperate with the Harms Commission and that I gave this evidence at that stage during 1990, with the realisation that I could be prosecuted. In spite of this fact, I did give this evidence.

MR MARTINI: Did you claim any privilege at that Commission?

MR VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, I did not use my right to privilege apart from possibly in one case, and that is the Lubowski matter in South West, in Namibia, but I don't believe that that was privilege, that was outside the jurisdiction of the Harms Commission and evidence was not given in this regard.

MR MARTINI: Now I just want to go back while we're dealing with Harms, to certain testimony of Mr Verster this morning which possibly you can enlighten us on. You heard the evidence of Mr Verster, he gave testimony today to the effect that he said that Gen Badenhorst had said "Leave van Zyl out", and thereafter he went on to say that "van Zyl told me", words to the effect that you would thank him, that Verster would thank you one day for what had happened at the Harms Commission.

Now Mr Chairperson, I don't remember the exact words in the Afrikaans, but I understand that was the context, the meaning of his words. The gist.

Now in what context were those words said to you? Did you say those words to Mr Verster?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, I did say those words to Verster and I said them in the context of - there was a difference of opinion between Verster and myself regarding my evidence, he wanted me to use my right to privilege and I didn't want to do that, and it was within this context that I told him that he would one day thank me for the fact that I so open-heatedly testified in this regard.

MR MARTINI: Now when did you resign from the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: Approximately the 20th or 23rd of October 1989 I resigned from the CCB.

MR MARTINI: Now when you resigned, were you given any packages, financial packages of any kind?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, it happened quite quickly, the vehicle that I used while I was working for the CCB, I gave back, as my evidence said, the safe I bought from them and the shredding machine I bought from them. I received no package from them, from the CCB, and I also received no pension from the Defence Force. I gave up all my salaries and my benefits.

CHAIRPERSON: So that money that you used with your first production bonus that you said you'd put in for a pension, was that in a personal endowment-type policy or some other sort of policy, retirement annuity police? What happened to that?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, that was a sort of a retirement policy and this policy then expired because I could not follow it up after I resigned from the CCB.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson.

Now I want to deal with that. There's been suggestions in the cross-examination of Mr Verster and suggestions by certain cross-examination by Mr Hockey, more particularly dealing with your statement, I think it was at page 115, that you stole money or you committed - it was implicit from the question put, that money was stolen and I think it's related to pages 115, relating to you being told by the "Streekbestuurder" to keep R5 000 for yourself. Now have you ever stolen any money from the CCB organisation whilst you were employed there or after you resigned?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can we use the word "unlawful appropriate", steal might be ...(inaudible) legally interpreted. Did you in any way unlawfully appropriate monies from the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I would like to answer no, and I will explain as follows. I was not authorised to incur expenses that were related to Ferdi Barnard, I did that in consultation with my own discretion. Ferdi Barnard upon three occasions flew from Jo'burg to Cape Town and he stayed for quite a while to help me with the monitoring of the Omar project. The only way in which I could see my way clear to pay for the expenses in this regard, was either to go and speak to Staal Burger in this regard, but when the opportunity presented itself after the explosion at the Early Learning Centre and he told me that I could keep R5 000 for myself, and I do not know if he meant it that I could just take it and whether this was a sort of a bonus. I should actually, according to my calculations, have given R20 000 to Gakie(?), the additional R2 000 of this amount I took so that I could then give the full amount of R10 000 back to the CCB. So on my own discretion I spent R7 000 of the State's money on Ferdi Barnard, which was not authorised but this was not money that I in any way used for my own personal gain.

MR MARTINI: Was that R7 000 spent on projects of the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: It was specifically used for the project of Omar.

MR MARTINI: Now Mr van Zyl, we know from the evidence that ultimately from Mattheysen, the operatives in Region 6 were to set up their own businesses, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now did you perform such an act, did you set up your own business whilst in the employ of the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, we reached a stage where the cover that Mattheysen Bus Transport should have given us was served out or not appropriate anymore and accordingly I decided to get my own cover and I started a business which was called Incom, I-n-c-o-m Investigations. I was planning it that this cover would be managed as a private investigation agency. I started it, and this business was situated in Sandton. I received a monthly amount from the organisation in the form of about R2 000 per month, which would then go to the payment of the renting of offices.

MR MARTINI: When did you start that business?

MR VAN ZYL: This business was started approximately June/July 1989.

MR MARTINI: When you started that business, did you get given a lump sum payment to buy any capital assets or any other assets for that business? - from the CCB.

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: But the CCB paid for certain expenses, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: The CCB covered the normal monthly expenses like the renting of offices and telephone accounts and secretarial services. I did not have my own secretary, the office was situated inside a business management building where the secretary could be found.

MR MARTINI: Now how long had you been running this business before you resigned from the CCB organisation?

MR VAN ZYL: The business existed for about four months before I resigned from the CCB. But I have to add that as a result of our activities it was at that stage not possible to actively manage the blue plan, and it was for this aim that I then thought to approach a colleague, Ben van Zyl, so that he could do investigation work for me with the blue plan business to in this way, give me an opportunity to actively continue my red plan activities.

MR MARTINI: Now you heard the evidence under cross - or the suggestions - let me rephrase myself, by Mr Bizos that certain operatives got themselves businesses, well was this business worth anything?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, the business had no value, that business is managed by me today and it is so that it is a very successful business, but I can give you the assurance that there is no relation between the CCB or the current government or State system.

CHAIRPERSON: When you started that business, did you buy an existing business called Incom Investigations, or did you start it from scratch? Did you form a company, did you register a company or a CC or what? When you talk about business, what was the legal nature of it?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was quite simple, it was only a close corporation that was formed and I was the only member of such a corporation. The close corporation had no assets at all and to be able to start the close corporation, at that time only cost R400.

MR MARTINI: While we're on the business, can you explain - are you still conducting this business today?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, I'm still involved at present with the investigation of criminal matters on a private basis and I also have security businesses.

MR MARTINI: Now in that security business, you say - the way I understand you, your business comprises of an investigative unit and furnishing security, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now in your security section, do you employ people?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, I have approximately 300 members of staff at the moment.

MR MARTINI: Now in the employment of your staff, are you limited to race or is it an open policy?

MR VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, we accept the same standards and norms that all the businesses accept, race and colour does not play a role at all, it's about qualifications.

MR MARTINI: Have you employed any former, past members of any political organisation in your present business?

MR VAN ZYL: That is the case, I have certain members of the then Umkhonto weSizwe who are currently working for me and - yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you employed any former members of the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I've learnt my lesson.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, there have also been suggestions that whilst you were in the CCB, the certain operatives - what were they called, the indirect operatives that you used, were gangsters and criminals, is there anything sinister employing - before I ask you that question, prior to joining the CCB, what did you do, where were you employed?

MR VAN ZYL: As I have already given evidence, I was a member of the South African Police Force, Police Service, and I was last at the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad.

MR MARTINI: Now in employing gangsters or criminals, is there anything sinister or is it normally something that one does in this type of business, or the Police when they use informers? Do you go and look for squeaky-clean people or do you look for this type of person to provide information?

MR VAN ZYL: I would like to explain it in the following manner, that when it comes to the gathering of information there is necessarily a very broad spectrum and there is a very big community from whom information can be gained, but when working with aspects like these, then one normally does not get your information from the church and then you would have to turn to the gutters and the badder structures to be able to get hold of your information.

MR MARTINI: You read in your evidence that you were given a vehicle when you joined the CCB, I'm not sure if you've given evidence as to what you did with it, but if you haven't, what did you do with the vehicle that you received from the CCB when you joined?

MR VAN ZYL: I gave it back.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, I just want to clarify how the projects were conducted. Did you receive instructions to formulate plans to eliminate people for example, or were you given an instruction to formulate such a plan? Just in summary, how did it work? Because I understood from your evidence that your function was to gather information, so when it came to a point of having to eliminate a person, was that a decision you took? Just explain how one arrives at that point within the organisation of the CCB at the time.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, our primary task was to maximally disrupt the enemy. Our secondary task was to gather information. If I can refer to the gathering of information, this was a normal daily task, if I can put it like that. Information was gathered from the structures that we worked with, in other words the unaware members, such information was put in writing and then in the prescribed manner was sent through to the co-ordinator, who would then process this information. And then it was the duty of the Co-ordinator and also the Regional Manager, to give specific instructions to us as operators concerning when a specific project had to be registered or when a specific instruction had to be executed.

MR MARTINI: But in essence, did you supply information and from that - who verified that information?

MR VAN ZYL: As I've said already, the information was passed to the Co-ordinator and it was the Co-ordinator’s function that he would with the information that he got from our structures, to verify such information with the structures that the CCB had access to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take an example, let's take Mr Omar's case, how did you get or under what circumstances did you yourself personally first learn of the name, Dullah Omar and who from?

MR VAN ZYL: The first time I heard of Dullah Omar was when his particulars were given to me by one of my agents, Peaches ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Peaches, for what reason would he give you Mr Omar's name?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, as I've given evidence, they were asked to gather information regarding persons that we saw as the enemy of the State and people were connected with banned organisations etcetera, and as the time went on, Peaches gave me the particulars of Adv Omar and those particulars I then gave to the Co-ordinator, who was Wouter Basson. And at a later stage, I mean there was no - I had nothing in mind with this information up to a later stage when the Co-ordinator came back to me and he said that the information regarding Adv Omar was confirmed and they want me to do a pre-study in terms of the elimination of this person.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever learn what Peaches' real name was?

MR VAN ZYL: I knew him as Peaches Gordon, I think Gordon was his surname. Edward Gordon was his correct name.

MR MARTINI: But what I'm getting at, the ultimate instruction to come up with a plan to eliminate today's Minister, at the time, Mr Dullah Omar, that instruction was given to you, or did you take that decision yourself to formulate a plan?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, we never - the instruction to eliminate someone or the instruction to burn something always came via the Co-ordinator or via the Regional Manager, it was not an initiative from an operator like myself.

MR MARTINI: And in respect of the Early Learning Centre I take it the same principle applied?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And with the Bishop Tutu incident?

MR VAN ZYL: The same principle applies. This was just a normal order that I received and that I executed.

MR MARTINI: You didn't decide - we've heard suggestions by Mr van Zyl that this was a "grappie", you didn't take it upon yourself and say "well I'm going to go and play this joke on Bishop Tutu", and went and placed this foetus in his garden?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not see it as a joke, to me it was an instruction like any other instruction and I executed it as it was required of me.

MR MARTINI: In respect of Gavin Evans you said it was not one of your projects, what did you mean by that?

MR VAN ZYL: The Gavin Evans incident, the Regional Manager, Staal Burger, informed me that the Evans project was the project of Chap Maree and that the project had already been presented to the Regional Manager and that it was an approved project and I was simply requested by him to use Peaches Gordon and another person to execute this project. So what I am telling you, Mr Chairperson, is that I was not present with the presentation of this project to the Chairperson. As I understood it coming from the Regional Manager, Chap did this presentation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that before it slips my mind, we heard that that was a Gauteng project, but what were you doing about it in the Cape then, why were you involved down here?

MR VAN ZYL: I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was Peaches involved down in the Cape if it was a Gauteng project? Was Mr Evans from Gauteng or was he from Cape Town?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, Peaches Gordon and Isgak, just for the record, are people who stay in Cape Town and the Cape region was given to me, but at that stage when execution had to be given to the project of Mr Gavin Evans, neither Mr Botha or Mr Chap Maree had any unaware members or had access to the use of any unaware members, I was the only person at that stage who had already recruited unaware members and it was for this reason that I was asked by the Regional Manager to make Peaches Gordon and another person available to execute this project.

CHAIRPERSON: So do you know whether Peaches and that other person then went up to ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: They did, they definitely did.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh did they. Thank you.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, that was the testimony, they came up but the address was incorrect, so they cancelled the project.

Now in respect of the Gavin Evans project, were you asked to formulate a plan to eliminate him?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, there had already been a plan that was prepared. I was told that an address would be given where Mr Evans would be residing and I was told that he would have to be stabbed with a knife so that it could look like a robbery.

MR MARTINI: In other words Mr van Zyl, the plan had already been prepared by somebody else, you were just instructed to carry out the plan, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr van Zyl, you said in your evidence that these unaware people were used in high risk type operations and the aware operatives were used in low risk operations just so that in case they were caught then there wouldn't be any link to Special Forces. Monitoring a person - forget about the elimination aspect, but just establishing whether a person is at an address, at a particular house in Johannesburg or wherever it is, or whether he works at a particular place, is there any risk involved in that? Why bring two people all the way from Cape Town just to establish that the person's not at a given address? Why didn't the operatives, the aware members themselves establish whether or not the person was at an address? It's a fairly easy sort of thing to do.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I agree with what you are saying, but what I gave evidence to was that I had the two people come up to Jo'burg with the specific instructions and the specific intention that they would have to eliminate Gavin Evans, they were not brought up to Jo'burg to confirm his address. I assumed and I accepted that when this address was given to me regarding the place where Evans stayed, that everything was already confirmed and that everything was already correct. It was only after Peaches Gordon and the unknown person who accompanied him gave me feedback that the address was not applicable anymore, that he was not staying there anymore, that was the first time that I then reported it back to the Regional Manager, that was the first time that I became aware of the fact that the information that they gave to me was not applicable anymore.

MR MARTINI: In other words Mr van Zyl, you had no part in establishing the address of Mr Evans.

MR VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR MARTINI: You had no part in formulating the plan to eliminate Mr Evans.

MR VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR MARTINI: That was all prearranged by somebody else.

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Your only instruction was to arrange for operatives to carry out the plan. In other words, to go to the address which you had been furnished and eliminate him.

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: So Peaches and your other operative weren't brought out to go and monitor Mr Evans?

MR VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: So in that period from 1986 through - at that period of time, that was in 1989, you were the only aware member of the CCB with unaware connections?

MR VAN ZYL: That I knew of, correct Chairperson. Must I perhaps add "as far as I know and at my disposal."

MR MARTINI: Now Mr van Zyl, you did testify in the Barnard trial on the Dullah Omar incident, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: After your evidence - let me put it this way, before testifying in that trial were you offered a 204 indemnity, so if you speak the truth you won't be prosecuted?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And you testified at that trial on the Dullah Omar incident.

MR VAN ZYL: I did testify.

MR MARTINI: And were you given indemnity by the Presiding Judge?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, by the Honourable Judge Els I was given indemnity.

MR MARTINI: Now Mr van Zyl, on the incident of the Early Learning Centre we heard Mr Williams stating that it maybe through an act of God that he's alive, was it your intention or your instruction to ensure that people were killed when that bomb went off?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Chairperson, I've already testified that the whole purpose of that exercise was to render the whole hall obsolete so that it could not be used further by the organisation of the Kewtown Youth Movement. There was never any intention to injure and/or kill anyone, it was specifically made as such and I requested as such during my presentation of this project, that it had to be detonated by a remote control and I deemed it necessary to accompany Isgak, so that loss of life or injury could be limited to a minimum.

MR MARTINI: Now Mr van Zyl you heard emotive language "kleuterskool", the bomb was placed at the "kleuterskool", what time did the bomb go off? At approximately what time, do you recall?

MR VAN ZYL: If I recall correctly it was approximately quarter to nine to nine o'clock. I'm not exactly certain.

CHAIRPERSON: What day of the week was it, was it a weekend, a week day, can you recall?

MR VAN ZYL: It was during the week, yes.

MR MARTINI: Now you were there, you said about 30 metres.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, it was probably a bit more than 30 metres, maybe about 60 metres away, but I was there, that is correct. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR MARTINI: Did you see any kindergarten children or "kleuters" in the vicinity at the time?

MR VAN ZYL: No, Chairperson, I did not see any children at that centre at that stage. I would also like to mention that I was there personally, there were no vehicles in the parking area at the stage when the bomb was detonated.

CHAIRPERSON: This place, does it have a parking ground, a place that's meant to be a parking lot for people using the centre? As opposed to just parking in the street.

MR VAN ZYL: There was a small - when I say small, a parking area of approximately 60 square metres, that is the parking area that I refer to. I do not know what the other people in the audience refer to.

CHAIRPERSON: But it would be - as far as you are concerned that place that you are speaking about, if any of us now had to go to the Early Learning Centre to visit there, would park there? It would be he obvious place to park.

MR VAN ZYL: I assume so, Chairperson. That is the parking area, if I can call it, it would probably be on the western side of the building, yes, on the western side.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just wondering - I raised it sometime earlier about the nature of the premises, whether it's just a square hall or whether there are outbuildings, I was just wondering whether it's at all possible to, not to get a plan but just a rough sort-of drawing so that we can agree what it looks like where the car park is.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, there are photographs annexed in the bundle at 254. We were told - I'm not sure, we were told that photographs would be made available of the originals but not of the outside. Possibly ...

MS COLERIDGE: We don't have pictures of the car park, Chairperson, but I could make the original available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because there are things like, I don't know whether anything will be of any importance coming from a plan, but what one imagines if it's an early learning centre, that there's probably sort of classrooms and there's a hall and that if groups go and meet there, it's not necessarily in one particular place, they might use classrooms or whatever. It just might be of assistance.

MR BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) the community, we'll ask him to do a plan and promise to hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It needn't be anything too fancy or ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Once you do it you might as well do it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but a reasonable impression, I don't want working drawings, yes.

MR BIZOS: As much as we would like to go and do an inspection in order to show that nobody is in danger there, I don't think we should take up time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, maybe one would also want to know what the adjacent area looks like because they claim that they've observed the place. And those factors which might become relevant due to certain facts that I myself will place on that record, for that purpose I would suggest that an in loco inspection would be the best.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, sorry, I think this is a whole ploy and I think Mr Bizos should keep his snide comments to himself and conduct himself in a dignified manner. This has got nothing to do with the issue. Unfortunately, let's place this on record now, Mr Commissioner, if certain people are bitter that the venue was changed, that is unfortunate. A Judge has ruled in favour of my client, so let's stay away from that issue. The relevance of what it looks like, there is no relevance to it, the fact is a bomb went off, the fact is from all statements before this Commission, is that no-one got hurt save for Mrs Omar who says "I've got a minor cut on the forehead". So what is the relevance of an inspection in loco of the centre, other than to achieve some point because some people are bitter, we appreciate that, unfortunately people should realise that my client also had rights and his rights were enforced by a Judge of the Supreme Court. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll decide later whether or not we need to have an inspection, but I would appreciate some sort of, at this stage at least, a drawing, a layout ...(intervention)

MR COETZEE(?): Mr Chairman, may I suggest a couple of photographs as a good starting point. We've got the facilities, they've got a 1 hour lab, we can have it developed, we can have it tomorrow morning. A couple of good photographs of the vicinity showing the building from a distance could assist the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, anything that will assist us, give us some idea of what the premises look like.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr van Zyl, after the bomb was detonated were you aware as to whether anybody was injured or killed?

MR VAN ZYL: No, we were not aware of any injuries or any deaths.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, Mr Verster testified that the object of the CCB unit was "die totale ontwrigting van die vyand", was that put to you when you went on your course or joined the CCB organisation?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, yes.

MR MARTINI: Now I would like you to look at Exhibit D, which is the Report being handed in, the Report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I would like you to look at paragraph 382 - this has been dealt with, Mr Chairperson, but I'll deal with it directly with my client. Now I don't want to waste time, if you have a look at paragraph 382, it's referring to Gen Joop Joubert, but just read the last sentence of that paragraph, read with the lettering thereafter. Let's start at

"The revolutionary ..."

MR VAN ZYL: I've read it, Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: Can I read it for you?

"The revolutionary and covert nature of the plan amongst others things involved

That ANC leaders and people who substantially contributed to the struggle, would be eliminated. That ANC facilities and support services would be destroyed. Activists, sympathises, fighters and people who supported them, would be eliminated."

Now was that conveyed to you as the objective of the CCB?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR MARTINI: And did you accept that?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, I accepted it.

MR MARTINI: Were you also told at the time that the so-called war had come home, moved into the country, that the country was now in an internal war?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: With opponents of the government at the time.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, are we adjourning at quarter to four?

CHAIRPERSON: No, not necessarily, I think the arrangement has been that Mr Barnard is leaving at quarter to four, the only reason was in respect of Mr Barnard, but he's already left.

MR MARTINI: I just enquired so as to determine what time we'd end because if it was going to end at quarter four, I'd like to use the occasion to just go through certain things with my client just to provide a complete picture.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could go on through to plus-minus 4 o'clock or so, if it's possible.

MR MARTINI: Well Chairperson, I don't have much to ask, save to going through certain things with my client just to make sure we've canvassed certain issues that I wanted to put in-chief, and the only issues left that I'd then deal with, I would like to deal with three issues, but at the end. So if we could adjourn at quarter to four and tomorrow morning I'm sure if we have nothing else to cover, I'll be short and just end off with certain issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Because tomorrow we are having a short day.

MR MARTINI: 11 o'clock?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've been requested to adjourn at 11 o'clock and that has been agreed to, it's an important religious holiday and we respect that many people require to leave early, so we'll be adjourning early.

MR MARTINI: Are we starting earlier?

CHAIRPERSON: From my point of view, and I'm sure from Mr Sibanyoni's and Mr Lax', we're available to start at any time, yes. I'm not sure about it now, but we'll have to communicate in respect of getting Mr Barnard here. Would eight thirty be a convenient time?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, even if Mr Barnard is not here, I have indicated ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You'll look after his interests.

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we appreciate that.

MR COETZEE: So we can start even if he's not here at half past eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then if we could start at eight thirty seeing that we are losing a little bit of time now and we'll be finishing early, it would be better. Thank you.

So we'll now adjourn at this stage and reconvene at eight thirty tomorrow morning, same venue.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS