Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody, we'll be proceeding with the hearing with the evidence of Mr Hardien. Ms Coleridge?

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson. I'd just like to inform that Committee that we have consulted with the Attorney-General in the Western Cape, that is Mr Frank Khan, and Chairperson, he has given us the go-ahead to proceed with this matter. We have also confirmed this with the National Office of Prosecutions and received confirmation Chairperson, that we can proceed with Mr Isgak Hardien's testimony. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, will Mr Hardien not need a translation, the benefit of translation?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, he will testify in Afrikaans and he'll require translation.

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, while we're waiting for the interpreting service, can I just place on record concerning the finding of the evidence that Mr Hardien will give, I would just like to object to certain questions that are going to be put to him if it may lead to incriminating my client. We would just like to reserve the right to then object to these questions or then to refuse to answer these questions. I'd like to place it on record at this stage and let's see how the proceedings continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you've obviously got the right to do that, Mr Rheede. Thank you. ISGAK HARDIEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Coleridge? Sorry.

What are your full names?

MR HARDIEN: Isgak Hardien.

MR LAX: Just for the record, that's I-s-g-a-k. Is that the correct spelling?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, Mr Isgak Hardien's statements appear at bundle B, from page 145 to 159, that's the statement he had made in his Section 29 whilst in detention Chairperson, and then also at bundle B, from page 160 to 190, you will note there's an interview with the TRC Investigative Unit, where Mr Hardien answered questions in relation to his activities, Chairperson, particularly in relation to the Athlone Early Learning Centre.

Mr Hardien, can you tell the Committee how did you come into contact with Mr Slang van Zyl?

MS COLERIDGE: I made contact with Mr van Zyl through Peaches.

MS COLERIDGE: And then?

MR HARDIEN: He contacted me, we met each other.

MS COLERIDGE: And what transpired at that meeting with Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: I asked him why he had my name and address and he said I mustn't worry, it is not important. We had a discussion and we met each again.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it, Mr Hardien?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall, I do not know.

MR LAX: Just to place it in context if we may. How old are you?

MR HARDIEN: I am 41.

MR LAX: And what were you doing at the time, were you employed, were you unemployed or were you studying?

MR HARDIEN: I worked.

MR LAX: Yes. What did you work as?

MR HARDIEN: Athlone Swimming Baths.

MR LAX: Yes, as what?

MR HARDIEN: How can I put it, I was the supervisor, I was in charge of all the people who worked there.

MR WILLIAMS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, we can't hear what Mr Hardien is saying, if he can just raise his voice maybe a bit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think - but also Mr Williams, perhaps if you get one of these devices you can put it onto Afrikaans, it just has the effect of amplifying it a bit.

MR LAX: That's why some of us wear it, we're not necessarily listening to the translation at all, it just that it's often difficult to hear in the hall.

Then the last thing, just in terms of background, what is your level of education?

MR HARDIEN: I did not go school.

MR LAX: You didn't go to school?

MR HARDIEN: No, not at all.

MR LAX: Thank you. Please continue.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you.

Now you've informed us that you had met Mr Slang van Zyl, now regarding the second time you had met him, what did he inform you as to, what does he need or require from you, how were you going to help him? Can you explain that to us?

MR HARDIEN: He told me that I know Kewtown, I knew everything that was going on there, I can assist him to prevent the ANC from coming in.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what did he inform you after that? Was he going to contact you again, or were you going to contact him? What did he inform you as to how you're going to build relations between the two of you?

MR HARDIEN: He told me that he'd contact me again and that I can contact him as well.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, did you contact him?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what transpired there?

MR HARDIEN: We just met as we did before, we had a discussion, I think there were a lot of activities going on, I think it was in that time, yes, and who the people were who were involved, the arsonists or the arson, etcetera.

MS COLERIDGE: Right. Did Mr van Zyl offer you any money in terms of getting you to contact him and so forth?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MS COLERIDGE: Just in your one statement you had stated that you were paid about R400 or R500, just in terms of contacting Mr van Zyl telephonically and so forth, can you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: I can remember it because it was money that I received from him.

MS COLERIDGE: And can you inform us, what was your first operation that Mr Slang van Zyl required you to do for him?

MR HARDIEN: I had to give him information about who the people were.

MS COLERIDGE: Is that the people regarding the Athlone Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: Exactly.

MS COLERIDGE: How did you gather that information regarding the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I know them all, I know what they do.

MS COLERIDGE: Good. What report-back did you give to Mr van Zyl regarding the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I told him that they were involved in the arson in Belgravia Road.

MS COLERIDGE: And how did you know that information?

MR HARDIEN: It is very simple, I operate with them, I move around in the area.

MS COLERIDGE: Now your first operation you were involved in the South West African ... just before the elections, can you explain to us what Mr van Zyl had required you to do there?

MR HARDIEN: I would just like to ask a question. He asked me if I wanted to go on holiday or if I've been on holiday. I said no.

MS COLERIDGE: And then how was it that you got to go to South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: He told me then that I can go to South West Africa.

MS COLERIDGE: To do what, Mr Hardien?

MR HARDIEN: I can spend a few days there because people from the Cape will come up for meetings or business or whatever happened there and I then went.

MS COLERIDGE: Were you required to take down people's registration numbers, from buses or cars or so forth?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you do this?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: How many times did you go to South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: Once.

MR LAX: Sorry, what kind of people were these that you were supposed to go and look at registration numbers of, from the Cape?

MR HARDIEN: I just had to observe registration numbers.

MR LAX: Yes, well were they from any particular political organisation or ... what was the whole object, why were you going to look at registration numbers?

MR HARDIEN: I assume it was political people, because there was an election, there was a meeting or an election or whatever.

MR LAX: So you didn't really know who these people were or what they were doing, you didn't even know why you had to take these registration numbers?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you go to Windhoek and sit on the pavement in the main road, thousands of vehicles are going to pass you, you're just going to write down registration numbers of every vehicle in Windhoek? What's the point of that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I arrived there and they told me - I cannot remember the name, just don't ask me the names because then you'll never get an answer, they told me to sit at a specific spot and that cars will come and taxis will come and I had to remain at that specific spot.

MR LAX: In your statement here you say it was Church Street in Windhoek.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that's the main street, if I'm correct.

MR LAX: I'm not sure that it was the main street, because you couldn't find the place. You'd think that you'd easily find a main street.

MR HARDIEN: It was the street where the hotel was. I think that was in the main street.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, you said you didn't got to school, can you read and write?

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you capable of seeing a registration number of a vehicle and writing it down?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You can do that, although you can't ...

MR HARDIEN: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me. Were you writing registration numbers of each and every car, or were you looking for cars with South African registration numbers?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: You see in your statement you say that you were given registration numbers to go and find certain vehicles, now that's quite different to what you're telling us now. Has someone read this statement to you?

MR HARDIEN: Nobody did.

MR LAX: Well I think we should give you an opportunity to refresh your memory, to read this statement, because otherwise your evidence is going to be completely mixed up.

MR RHEEDE: Mr Chairperson, I specifically did not read any statements to Mr Hardien. If the Commission requests this, I will. I did not want to do it because I did not want to create certain ideas in his mind which will be disputed at a later stage. I wanted him to testify on his own memory and I realise it happened a long time ago, but because of that and the things that have been said, I did not want to read the statements to him that he lied about before and will now be stated as the truth. If the Commission however thinks that it's wise to do it, I will do it.

MR LAX: Well let's just ask this question, did you lie in these statements?

MR HARDIEN: In which statements?

CHAIRPERSON: The one that was made in Secunda.

MR LAX: The one that was made when you were in detention. You made a number in detention, but there was a final one that was made that was signed at Secunda.

MR HARDIEN: Exactly.

MR LAX: And in that statement you say well you did lie before but now you want to tell the full truth, because you realise it's better to come clean and just tell the truth. Did you tell the truth in that statement?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Alright. And then in the interview with our staff, our Investigation Team, Mr Khoisan and Mr Petersen, do you remember you had an interview with them in August 1997? Zenzile Khoisan and Deon Petersen, from our office.

MR HARDIEN: I can remember the name Zenzile.

MR LAX: And he sat with you, presumably in a room somewhere with a tape recorder and he asked you a whole lot of questions which were recorded and your answers were recorded.

MR HARDIEN: But he did not tell me that it was recorded, was being record. He arrived there and I chased him away because I told him I trust no-one and I believe no-one and at a later stage he arrived again and he showed me a name of somebody, of who he was. I've chased him away about three times from my house, because he was there more than once.

MR LAX: Well this seemed to be a very long discussion because it's goes for literally 30 pages of typing and there are a whole lot of questions and answers here that are recorded. You don't remember that at all?

MR HARDIEN: I recall that I spoke to him and I just wanted him to leave. I told him anything so that I can get rid of him, because I didn't trust anyone.

MR LAX: So you lied to him as well?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I told him - he can come and testify here, I told him: "It's a lot of shit this, I do not want you here, because I cannot trust you, you come here with different people every time."

MR LAX: Well then we may as well proceed on this basis.

MS COLERIDGE: Right. Now you were in South West Africa, you had to take down registration numbers, were you tasked to commit arson, to slash people's tyres? Were you told to do that as well, Mr Hardien?

MR HARDIEN: They told me to make friends and I can make friends quite easily, people in the area who can show me around, and I became in touch with the people who lived there.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were you in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if it was a week or a week or two, or three. I cannot really say.

MR LAX: And how many people did you befriend?

MR HARDIEN: A lot of them.

MR LAX: A lot?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Five, ten?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say exactly but there were the people I met at a friend of mine from the Cape, I met a lot of people in the night-clubs, if they hear you're from the Cape, you make a lot of new friends quite easily.

MR LAX: And you also had money?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: And why did you make friends, what was the purpose?

MR HARDIEN: They knew the place, they know it better than I do, they can go and show certain areas to me and I told at a certain stage kombis will come and where will they meet. I do not know the place, so I had to make use of people there to show where's this street, where's this place, where's that place. Otherwise I wouldn't have known where these places were.

MR LAX: Well did they take you to these places and show you where these kombis were?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, they showed me where the meetings were going to be held, they told me in this street the taxis will come through and the cars will come through or pass through this street. I think it was probably because of the elections that was going on there.

MR LAX: What organisations were you monitoring?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, to tell you the truth, I do not know or I cannot remember.

MS COLERIDGE: You said you met a friend there as well that assisted you in taking down registration numbers and so forth, is that right?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, he's from the Cape, he's got a business there.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you meet him in the Cape, or did you meet him in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I met him in South West.

MS COLERIDGE: And he wrote down registration numbers of people, do you know whose registration numbers he wrote down for you?

MR HARDIEN: I did not hear that question, can you just repeat it.

MS COLERIDGE: In your statement you said this one Coloured man that helped you, he also assisted you in getting registration numbers of cars and so forth, can you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And that you gave this to Mr Slang van Zyl, remember that?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did Mr Slang van Zyl tell you? Where did you meet him at this stage?

MR HARDIEN: I think I phoned him. I do not think I met him, I think I phoned him.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you tell him?

MR HARDIEN: I told him I got the registration numbers that he wanted.

MS COLERIDGE: And then? Did he tell you to come back to Cape Town?

MR HARDIEN: Really I cannot recall if I was supposed to stay or come back, I cannot remember, but I did not stay there for very long. I cannot remember if he told me to come back or not.

MR LAX: Well how was it that you came back? Did your money run out and then you decided to come home? Or did you have a discussion with him and he said: "That you for the numbers, bring them to me at a certain place", or ...?

MR HARDIEN: My money did not run out, I do not know if he phoned me or I phoned him but I had to come back then. It could be that he possibly told me to come back, but my money did not run out, no. But I spoke to him about the registration numbers, but I cannot say exactly if it was that same day or the next day.

MR LAX: Did you have a printout with these numbers on, or were they just hand-written?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if this guy who helped me printed it out or if he wrote in on a piece of paper. I'm not quite sure.

MR LAX: Because somewhere there was talk about this chap making enquiries at a registration office and getting proper printouts with addresses and registration numbers. You know, like you can go to the licensing department and get a printout of who owns what vehicle, or stuff like that. Do you remember something like that?

MR HARDIEN: It could be, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Hardien, and then anything else in South West Africa that you did? In relation to Mr Slang van Zyl's instruction, what else can you remember that you did in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: Nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hardien, just before you proceed, at that stage did you know Mr van Zyl as Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you know him as, what name did you know him by?

MR HARDIEN: Theunissen de Wet.

MS COLERIDGE: You then returned back home and you said in your statement that you made in Secunda, that about two weeks after that you were in contact with Mr van Zyl and he came to your house. Can you remember what transpired there?

MR HARDIEN: Can you just repeat, did he come to my house?

MS COLERIDGE: You said that in about August '89, he came to visit you at your house. Or he could have telephoned you, did he telephone you?

MR HARDIEN: He phoned me, he never came to my house.

MS COLERIDGE: Right. And what did he inform you over the telephone.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember.

MS COLERIDGE: Okay. And then it transpired that you met him at the airport, now I want to take you ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: When was this now?

MS COLERIDGE: That was probably August '89. I want to take you to the Athlone Early Learning Centre, where you had met Mr van Zyl at the airport, can you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: How did you know you were supposed to meet Mr van Zyl at the airport?

MR HARDIEN: He phoned me.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did he tell you?

MR HARDIEN: I must get to the airport.

MS COLERIDGE: Did he inform you as to what you were required to do?

MR HARDIEN: Not at that time, not at that moment when he phoned me.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you went to the airport, who did you meet there?

MR HARDIEN: It was Slang.

MS COLERIDGE: Was he alone?

MR HARDIEN: When I met him he came out alone and probably a while later Mr Botha arrived. He did not want me to see Botha and he did not want Botha to see me.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what happened then?

MR HARDIEN: He told me then that there were two bags, one has got a bomb in and I must go and place it in the Early Learning Centre.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you tell him when he told you that?

MR HARDIEN: I did not say anything to him.

MS COLERIDGE: Now these two bags, can you describe it for us?

MR HARDIEN: It is a normal heavy sack, a coloured - it looks exactly the same, both looked the same.

MS COLERIDGE: And were they both the same weight?

MR HARDIEN: No, the one was empty, the other one had something in it.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did he tell you you must do with the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: He told me the bomb was going to be used to frighten the people.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what happened?

MR HARDIEN: They left and I left.

MS COLERIDGE: And where did you go to from there?

MR HARDIEN: I went to my house because it was very early.

MS COLERIDGE: And where was the bomb at that stage?

MR HARDIEN: With me in my room, and approximately after half an hour I went to the centre.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you tell Mr van Zyl as to when the people would be in the centre?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not quite sure if I gave him an exact time, but I did tell him that they will be there in the evening. I cannot tell you now exactly what the time was though.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, did you actually look in the bag and see the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: What did you do with the other bag? Why were there two bags?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say.

MR LAX: Did you take both bags or just the one?

MR HARDIEN: Both.

MR LAX: Well why did you take two bags?

MR HARDIEN: He gave me two.

MR LAX: Yes, but surely he must have told you to do something with both bags, what was the object of having two bags? Was one just a present?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did Mr van Zyl tell you you must do with the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: I had to go and place it in the centre because the meeting would be that same evening.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you place the bomb after you went home? You went to your house, did you go then to the Athlone Learning Centre to place the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: From the airport I went to my house and I stayed there for a while and from there I went with the bomb to the Early Learning Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, earlier on at this hearing we went to the centre to take a look at it and it's quite a big centre, there's a number of rooms, were you just told to put it in the centre anywhere, or was anything more specific mentioned as to whereabouts in the centre the bomb should be put?

MR HARDIEN: No, I told them that I'd placed it in the hall. They did not tell me where I must go and place it.

MR LAX: Did you place it in the hall because that's where the meeting was going to be?

MR HARDIEN: There were various meetings there.

MR LAX: In the hall though, as opposed to in the other offices?

MR HARDIEN: There were meetings in the hall, in the boardroom and I just decided on the hall.

MR LAX: So that was just your decision, no-one told you to put it there, that was just your discretion that you put it there?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So can you explain to us where in the centre you placed the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: The Committee understands, I placed it in the corner, in the right-hand side of the hall - no, sorry, it was the left side of the hall.

MR LAX: That's the hall on the left of the front entrance to the building?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: What's called the front entrance, as opposed to the entrance at the back which is where the parking area is?

MR HARDIEN: No, it was in Springbok Street, just as you explained it now. It was in the front of the building. The street is Springbok Street.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you placed the bomb in the building, were there people in the building at that time?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MS COLERIDGE: Was there nobody in the building?

MR HARDIEN: No-one

MR LAX: Surely there was a manager or a watchman or other staff in that building. Was the whole building completely empty, or was the hall just empty?

MR HARDIEN: The hall was empty.

MR LAX: Yes, but she said the building, not the hall and that's the problem. She asked you if the building was empty, not if the hall was empty.

MR HARDIEN: Then I did not understand it right.

MR LAX: That's why I'm clarifying it. So the hall was empty but there were obviously other people around there?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you do after you placed the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: I went home.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you meet - was there any plan to meet Mr van Zyl again?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I had to go and meet them, I think it was at the Bellville Holiday Inn.

MS COLERIDGE: And then when you met them there, did you all come together, drive in one car or two cars from the Holiday Inn?

MR HARDIEN: With one vehicle.

MS COLERIDGE: And whose car did you drive in?

MR HARDIEN: It was a friend of mine's.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what did you do?

MR HARDIEN: We around the place.

MS COLERIDGE: How long did you drive around the place for?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say exactly if it was five or 10 minutes, I cannot say.

MS COLERIDGE: And can you explain to us which part around the Early Learning Centre did you drive around?

MR HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl them did not know the area or the place, I drove round the front, right round, because you can circle the whole building and then we went to go and stand at the back of the building.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you circle the whole building?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So you could see the back and the front.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, the back and front, correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you stopped the car, could you see the parking lot or could you see the front of the building?

MR HARDIEN: Where the cars were parking.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what were your instructions, what did Mr van Zyl tell you to do then?

MR HARDIEN: I had to go and see if all the people were out, but while we were sitting there people came out, but I went out to go and make sure.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what happened?

MR HARDIEN: I once again went without Van Zyl and I went to go and ensure that all the people were out.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you report back to Mr van Zyl.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, did you go right into the building? Did you just stand near the entrance, what happened?

MR HARDIEN: I stood at the door. You can see if you stand at the door.

MR LAX: And did you look into the hall, did you look in the rest of the building, where did you look?

MR HARDIEN: No, I did not look around in the building, because I spoke to Mr Williams there.

MR LAX: What did you ask him?

MR HARDIEN: I told him: "Just make sure that everybody's out because I planted a bomb here."

MR LAX: You told him that?

MR HARDIEN: I told him that, my exact words.

CHAIRPERSON: We have a Mr Williams here ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: Mr Peter Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS COLERIDGE: And after checking the building you reported this back to Mr van Zyl, is that right?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: So did you get into the car again or what happened, can you explain that to us?

MR HARDIEN: I climbed back into the car, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Where was the car parked?

MR HARDIEN: Behind.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that where you could see the parking lot?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Could you tell us about how many metres away from the Early Learning Centre were you parked? 30 metres, 40 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate the distance in this court?

MR HARDIEN: It wasn't far. As you enter, on the corner of the road, the road runs in a circle, the Committee has been there, so the Committee will understand if I say from the corner to the building.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at the inspection in loco when we went there, Mr Hardien? Were you with us when we went there?

MR HARDIEN: No, I went by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm talking when we went as the Committee. Were you there when we were there?

MR HARDIEN: I stood at my flat and I saw all of you there. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. But I'm sure I know the corner that you're speaking about, you've got that sort of circle, the road that goes in a circle and it's just - it's not far from the entrance to where the car park is.

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It's approximately - we did take a measurement and it was pointed out to us. I've forgotten the exact measurements, but it's about 30 metres or so.

MS COLERIDGE: And then Mr Hardien, you got back into the car with Mr Slang van Zyl, is that right?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you do then, did you drive around the block, what did you do?

MR HARDIEN: We sat and waited until all the cars were gone.

MS COLERIDGE: And then?

MR HARDIEN: For me it was hundred percent certain that everyone had left, because there were no more cars.

MS COLERIDGE: From where you were could you see that there were no more cars in the parking lot?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, because I knew the place like the back of my hand.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, who pressed the - what happened thereafter?

MR HARDIEN: Then Mr van Zyl - you'll understand if I say a calculator, because to me it looked like a calculator, Mr Botha pressed it and I took them to the airport.

MR LAX: Sorry. Did he press it while you were at the back of the hall?

MR HARDIEN: No, I was with him in the car.

MR LAX: Yes, but was the car at the back of the hall still, where you'd been observing from?

MR HARDIEN: It was at the back, we were parked at the back where I said we were standing.

MR LAX: You were parked.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any problem with the calculator?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if there was a problem.

MR LAX: So Van Zyl gave the calculator to Botha, who pressed it, is that right? As far as you can remember.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And then you heard the bomb, is that right?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: What did you do after the bomb exploded?

MR HARDIEN: I took Mr van Zyl and them to the airport.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you go back to the Athlone Early Learning Centre after the incident?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Now we know that you received money for this operation, can you tell the Committee how much you received for your involvement?

MR HARDIEN: R18 000.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that the only amount you received?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you this is because you - first tell me, when did you receive the R18 000, was it before the incident or after the incident?

MR HARDIEN: Afterwards.

MS COLERIDGE: And how long after the incident?

MR HARDIEN: If I recall correctly it was two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: That amount of R18 000, Mr Hardien, was it a previously agreed amount, or when you got it was it a surprise to you, the amount? Were you expecting R18 000 at the time that you performed as you did with regard to the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: Nothing was discussed regarding money before the time.

MR LAX: Were you expecting to be paid?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Did you actually count the money?

MR HARDIEN: Not at that same time.

MR LAX: But at any time did you sit down and count it and make sure it was exactly R18 000?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And after the Athlone Early Learning Centre, did you have contact with Mr Slang van Zyl again thereafter?

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that the last time that you had dealings with Mr Slang van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: You also spoke about a place ... arson committed in homes, can you recall that incident where UDF members were using a certain printing place to get their pamphlets and materials and so forth? Do you remember ever talking about that or being involved in arson there?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Now you said - are you sure Mr Hardien, that you went to South West Africa only once?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr van Zyl stated that he sent to South West Africa and that your contact person was Mr Burger in South West Africa and he was going to give you instructions there as to what to do, did you ever meet Mr Burger in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know Mr Burger. I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in your statement to the TRC Investigative Unit, I know you said that you lied there, you didn't tell the truth, that when you went to South West Africa there were people like Mr Burger there and then this Greek man, Kouvaris, can you remember anything like that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall anything.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just in relation to Peaches, did Peaches ever go to South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know, you'll have to ask that at Gate 9, I don't know.

MS COLERIDGE: What do you mean by Gate 9?

MR HARDIEN: Because I don't know if he was there, go and ask him.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in your Section 29 you stated that Peaches also had missions to accomplish in South West Africa.

MR HARDIEN: I don't know anything about that.

MS COLERIDGE: Right. The next incident I want to talk to you about is, can you recall that Mr Peaches had informed you about the Dullah Omar incident?

MR HARDIEN: Once again I don't know, I can't recall. If you want to know, I think Gate 9 has a telephone number. If he told me, I would have told you.

MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you this is because you said to our Investigative Unit that in relation to the Dullah Omar incident, Peaches was tasked to kill Mr Omar. What is your comment?

MR HARDIEN: Once again, what I said to Zenzile was a lot of shit, because I just wanted them to get away from me.

MS COLERIDGE: You also stated that there was a certain woman, a domestic worker in the Omar house that assisted him, what is your comment about that?

MR HARDIEN: I don't even know who worked for Mr Omar. The other day I saw Mr Omar for the first time. He's never had such a discussion with me. I don't even know who Peaches was working for, I only found out subsequently who he was working for.

MS COLERIDGE: You also stated that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just one second.

Are you saying that this transcript of a discussion with you is just totally fabricated by Mr Petersen and Mr Khoisan? Are you saying they didn't record what they spoke to you about and this transcript is just total fabrication?

MR HARDIEN: I know they came to speak to me, but I don't know anything about a recording. If they made a recording, then they did so. But once again, I didn't want those people with me because I couldn't trust anybody at that stage anymore, because they didn't show me any kind of identification indicating who they were.

MR LAX: Did you ever go to the office of the Truth Commission, in Adderley Street in Cape Town?

MR HARDIEN: Where Lynn is?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you sit down there and talk to Mr Zenzile?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You see, I'm going to read you the first paragraph of this thing, where Mr Zenzile's talking. He says here

"Mr Isgak Hardien, thank you very much for attending the interview here at the TRC. We would like to discuss the activities and allegations against the former CCB and specifically we would like to discuss the role that you played during that time."

Do you remember that he sat down with you and placed all of that?

MR HARDIEN: I recall that he sat down and spoke, but I don't know whether it was that or what it was.

MR LAX: Well this was an interview that was specifically recorded and this is how he started it off, and he made reference to your Section 29 affidavit and he asked you a whole lot of questions, it must have taken quite a long time, in the office of the Truth Commission. Do you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: I recall that he came to fetch me and that we went to the offices.

MR LAX: Yes, and this was in August 1997, some three years ago.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall when it took place.

MR LAX: Yes, but it's not very long ago, it's a couple of years, surely you remember that.

MR HARDIEN: I know that he came to fetch me and I telephoned him again.

MR LAX: Now what I want to know is, when you went to the Truth Commission, why did you go there, why did you go and sit down with him in an office there and talk to him about all these things?

MR HARDIEN: He was at my house and he came to tell me that he was from the TRC, and then I said to him: "No, I don't trust you." He returned, probably after a week and then I asked him, before we went to any office: "Listen, you said you're from the TRC, I've seen it on the TV, I've seen it in the papers, all the people, I've seen this thing about amnesty, where do I fit in?" Then he asked me whether I would be prepared to accompany him to the offices because he would assist me. And that is how it happened that we went to the office. And then I found out that he came to me with a whole bunch of stories, because then he wanted to know whether I was ever at certain places and if I hadn't phoned myself, I wouldn't even have known about this business. I telephone Lynn myself, no-one told me: "You have to be at such and such a place, this is going to be happening." I used my own mind and phoned people and made enquiries and said: "Listen, I've heard my name on the radio ...(intervention)

MR LAX: I'm asking you about your interview with Khoisan, what happened afterwards is a different story. I want you to focus your mind on your interview. Do you understand?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand. I went with him to the offices, but I cannot recall what exactly we discussed. He asked me questions and I simply gave him answers for the sake of answering. Do you understand me?

MR LAX: Yes. So when you said to him that you knew Peaches for a long time, from primary school ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: I've known Peaches, he's been operating with me since Sub A.

MR LAX: So that wasn't a lie, that wasn't a lie, that's the truth.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, he wanted to know about Peaches and I said I've known Peaches since Sub A.

MR LAX: Yes. And that you said before he was murdered he was a member of the Dixie Boys, is that true?

MR HARDIEN: Peaches was a member of the Dixie Boys, it was impossible to hide that.

MR LAX: And yourself?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not a gangster.

MR LAX: Well you see, here you say you were higher than him, were you lying about that?

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Lax, where are you? When you say "here"?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 160. That is the first page of the taped conversation.

MR MARTINI: Thanks, Chairperson.

MR LAX: In fact where he says he was higher than him is a bit further on in that interview.

But in the interview that's what you say, that you were a senior to him. You avoid saying that you were the leader, but you say that you were senior to him. Was that just lies?

MR HARDIEN: No, he may have misinterpreted what I saw. All of them respected me, that is what I tried to convey to him, every last Dixie.

MS COLERIDGE: It's page 161, Mr Lax.

Mr Hardien, then I just want to take you back to your Section 29 detention, how did it come about that you were detained? Can you explain that to us?

MR HARDIEN: I can just recall that they came to fetch me and the next thing I saw I was in John Vorster Square and they told me: "Your friend Peaches is on the other side, but he'll be going home today", and then it was said that I was the one who planted the bomb and they said fine and he went home and I stayed.

MS COLERIDGE: And was Mr Slang van Zyl also detained when you were detained at that time?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know if it was at the same time, but he was there.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in one of the statements it's stated that you actually shared the same cell for a short while. Can you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I don't recall that, you couldn't share a cell.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, could Ms Coleridge point out to us in which statement it's alleged they shared the same cell? You know to just put it to this ...

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I will find the reference and I will make it available, Chairperson.

Mr Isgak can you tell us, all in all, how much money did you receive from the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: And do you remember how many times you received money from the CCB, besides the Athlone Early Learning Centre?

MR HARDIEN: I really cannot recall whether it was two or three times.

MS COLERIDGE: Your South West Africa trip, did you receive money there?

MR HARDIEN: I recall that I received money to go up to cover my accommodation expenses and so forth and to return, but I cannot recall any other money that I received.

MR LAX: Just for the record, Mr Martini, it's the last paragraph on page 159 and it says

"Theunissen de Wet is currently in detention with me at the SAP, Secunda."

It doesn't necessarily mean they were in the same cell, but he was certainly at the same police station.

MR MARTINI: But still Mr Lax, there's a difference between saying they're at the same police station or in the same cell.

MR LAX: No, I'm fully aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe there's another reference that Ms Coleridge has in mind.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, there is another reference where they say, it's stated that they shared for a short while, but I will the reference in due course.

Mr Hardien, is there anything else you want to tell the Commission in relation to this, your participation in the CCB activities?

MR HARDIEN: There's nothing that I recall. You asked me about the bomb and I told you about the bomb. Not that I can recall.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, just before I ask the others to ask you some questions, how long were you in detention for after you were arrested and taken to John Vorster Square and then Secunda - more-or-less?

MR HARDIEN: I think it was approximately two to three months.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that when you got the bomb in the sack at the airport, you were told to put the bomb in the Early Learning Centre and that you weren't told whereabouts in the Early Learning Centre and you had to us your own discretion as to where you would put it in the Early Learning Centre, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also said that you were told that the purpose of putting the bomb there was to scare people. Now bearing that in mind, why didn't you then put the bomb in the pantry or in a storeroom or some place, whey did you choose the hall to put the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: Because as you enter the hall it is immediately there. The other rooms were offices and there was a reception room, so to me I thought well no-one's in the hall, I'll just place it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just to finish off.

And did you put it in a cardboard apple box?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Did you take both bags in with you, or just the one?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if I took both, because the one was empty. It may be that I took both of them with me and came out with one. It is possible.

MS COLERIDGE: Sorry, Mr Lax, I've just got the reference for the cell. It's on page 189, bundle B, Mr Hardien states

"Slang and I were together, we were in one cell"

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just to finish off.

On your way into the building, did you meet anybody? Do you know Beula?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You say in this statement that you bumped into her on the way in and you had a quick chat to her, she asked you if you were tired and then you said yes, you're very tired, you'd been walking far, words to that effect, and then you went into the hall. You said you were going to rest there for a bit. Do you remember that?

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. I think what I'll do, I'll just go down the line, I'll ask the applicants first unless there's been any arrangement with the legal representatives as to the order of questioning.

MR WESSELS: I've no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask the applicant's representatives first, Mr Williams. Sorry, Mr Rheede?

EXAMINATION BY MR RHEEDE: Chairperson, may I just clear up one or two points, there are just a few things that I would like to ask him.

Mr Hardien, when you were detained in Secunda in terms of the Internal Security Act and Section 29 thereof, I accept that you cannot read, but did the police read your statement back to you at all?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR RHEEDE: But you did sign it, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR RHEEDE: And when you conducted the interview with members of the TRC, you have testified and you told us that it was not recorded.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR RHEEDE: Before the interview, did they explain anything to you about legal representation?

MR HARDIEN: Not at all.

MR RHEEDE: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MR RHEEDE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Hardien?

MR H DU PLESSIS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARTINI: Just a few, Chairperson.

Mr Hardien, in August 1997, were you aware that one could still apply for amnesty?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I think there was a deadline of sorts. I don't know if it was at that time.

MR MARTINI: Now when you met Zenzile Khoisan of the TRC, did he advise you to apply for amnesty?

MR HARDIEN: I actually asked him and then he said no, I shouldn't worry, they would notify me one day.

MR MARTINI: Did you ask him if you should apply for amnesty and he said no, they'll notify you one day? I don't understand your answer. Did you ask him whether you should apply for amnesty?

MR HARDIEN: Please repeat that.

MR MARTINI: In August, did you ask Zenzile Khoisan whether you should apply for amnesty?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And what was his response to you?

MR HARDIEN: He said that I shouldn't worry, that they would notify me one day.

MR MARTINI: Not to worry, they will notify you one day?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Notify you about what?

MR HARDIEN: About the things that I asked him about, about my position, whether or not I should apply for amnesty.

MR MARTINI: But you were never advised to request amnesty for this act at the Early Learning Centre?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Did you request or obtain any advice from him for you to do so?

MR HARDIEN: No, he didn't explain anything to me. I told him that I didn't know anything about these things.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, during these proceedings were you ever threatened?

MR HARDIEN: Once, I think it was at the same venue.

MR MARTINI: By whom?

MR HARDIEN: Chris Ferndale.

MR MARTINI: And how did he threaten you?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall his precise words to me, but he said something to the effect of: "We're not finished with you" and I said to him: "You cunt, I'm finished with you, 'cause you're a cunt." That's what I said to him directly, "you're a cunt."

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, let us try to ...(inaudible)

MR HARDIEN: Those were the words that I used, it doesn't help for me to hide it. That's what I said to him, because if I had to hide it, then I'd be lying.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, were you ever approached to change your statements which you had already made?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I was with Mr Williams and he advised me on where to obtain legal representation in order to see to my best interests and that the statements that I gave with Slang and the others weren't true and that I should consult with my attorneys and tell them what was going on.

MR MARTINI: So you were not asked to change your statements as such?

MR HARDIEN: To me it appeared that he was going to give me the names of attorneys who would assist me with my statement, because what I had said wasn't the truth, that I was simply to tell the truth.

MR MARTINI: So did Mr Williams tell you that what you had said in your earlier statements was not the truth?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Did you ask him what wasn't the truth?

MR HARDIEN: No, he told me that he wasn't really at liberty to speak to me, that he wasn't at liberty to discuss the matter with me. He gave me two names that I could contact, two names of attorneys and I also received numbers from Lynn, for attorneys, and then I decided to take someone that I preferred to have as my representation.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, you said that you never had any scholastic training, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR MARTINI: I just want to ask you once more, because I've seen that your attorney has asked you, this statement that you made when you were in jail, can you read it today?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR MARTINI: And at that stage you hadn't read it?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And did the police read it out to you?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR MARTINI: Very well. Then is it possible that what is embodied therein, or at least in sections thereof, could not be correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Then I just want to put this paragraph to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the page reference.

MR MARTINI: I will, Chairperson. Sorry Chairperson, I'm trying to question him in Afrikaans and listen in English, so ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Why don't you question him in English and it will be translated for him, and you'll be much more comfortable.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, if you look at page 154, bundle B...

CHAIRPERSON: He can't read.

MR MARTINI: That's the problem. I'll read it to him Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 9 of the statement made at Secunda, Mr Hardien - but ...(indistinct) have you got it?

MR MARTINI: Possibly your attorney, Mr Hardien, can have a look at it and I'll read it out and he can advise you if I'm reading it correctly. This forms part of your statement when you were detained under Section 29, and you say, and I read it now

"I had to take the second bag with me so that someone would ask me where my bag was and then I would have the second bag on me."

Is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR MARTINI: Very well. It then goes on, it says

"I said to him that if people were to die or be injured, I wouldn't do it."

Is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I didn't hear properly.

MR MARTINI: In this statement you say at page 154, last paragraph

"I said to him that if anyone were to die or be injured, I would not do it."

Is that correct. Is that a correct version?

MR HARDIEN: I will be with you shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, what do you say?

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say no.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just hold on. I wasn't clear on your answer there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was just going to get some clarity. Mr Martini read you an excerpt from the statement

"I said to him that if people were to be killed or injured, I wouldn't do it."

and he asked you is that the truth, is that correct, that part of your statement.

MR MARTINI: Could I possibly help ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just let's hear his answer man, just hold it, I want to hear his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a straightforward question, Mr Hardien, it's not going to incriminate you or anything like that. All that is asked, we've got this statement here which you dispute, we know that you can't read and it was made long ago, so you might remember what you said to the police, but if you can't remember, just tell us. That excerpt from the statement where you said to Mr van Zyl

"Look, if people are going to die or get injured, I'm not going to put the bomb there"

is that correct or is it incorrect?

MR LAX: In other words, did you say to Mr van Zyl: "Listen, if people are going to die and get injured with this bomb, then I'm not going to do this for you"?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Mr Lax, that's exactly as I was going to put it to the witness, that way.

So you said to Mr van Zyl that if people were to be killed or injured you were not prepared to do it, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now is the following correct, on the same page - let me ask you, De Wet, that's Mr van Zyl, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Did Mr van Zyl say to you that he also did not want "mense" to get hurt or die in the incident?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now just let me deal with relevant facts, I'm going to put certain things to you to see if you agree with them, from your evidence. It is correct the you planted the bomb in a "saal" at the Early Learning Centre, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: And the bomb at the time was in a sack and you then placed this bomb which is in the sack, into a cardbox box, apple box ...(intervention)

MR LAX: It was in a bag, not a sack.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: In a bag, placed into a cardboard apple box, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now at the time that the bomb - who do you say "het die knoppie gedruk"?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Botha.

MR MARTINI: At the time that the knoppie was "drukked", were you at the back of the hall where the parking lot is?

MR HARDIEN: We were behind the hall.

MR MARTINI: Okay. And is it your version that when the button was depressed, the people had left the hall?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now I just want to understand one thing, the hall, is that the "saal"?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Is that the hall where the bomb was placed?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now according to you the reason why you say that is because all the cars had left from the parking lot, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now did you see the people leave?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Just while you're looking.

Were the lights on, Mr Hardien, of the building that evening, at the time that you pressed the button, or that Mr Botha pressed the button? Were the lights still on?

MR HARDIEN: The outside lights were on. Against the wall there were lights and they were on.

MR LAX: And the internal lights?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if the lights were off in the hall, but outside the hall there were lights on, so that you can see there. I cannot remember if it was on.

MR LAX: Please carry on, Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: No further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: I think this will be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment for 20 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

MR P DU PLESSIS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN ECK: Mr Hardien, that day at the airport was the first time that you saw Mr Botha and that was also the last time that you saw him at the hall, you did not see him any time after that?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: In the whole process you had nothing further to do with him?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

MR COETZEE: I have no questions from my side.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: We've agreed that Mr Williams should go before us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Williams.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Gakkie, I understand that at the stage when the bomb was planted, you possibly had feelings towards members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, feelings that were not very good, but today as you're sitting there now, do you feel regret, do you feel that you shouldn't have planted the bomb there?

MR HARDIEN: Repeat your question please.

MR WILLIAMS: At the stage when you planted the bomb you possibly not like some of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, and there was probably not a very good relationship between you and some of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement and today as you're sitting here now, do you feel regret that you planted the bomb there?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: I cannot hear what you said.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you like to clarify or tell us why you feel regret?

MR RHEEDE: Mr Chairperson, I understand that to an extent why Mr Williams asked this question, I just do not know what the relevance is in the light of the fact that Mr Hardien is a witness in this matter. My instructions are that he would not like to testify about his personal feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: Well although the question of reconciliation and regret isn't a criteria to be taken into account by the Committee in the granting or refusal of amnesty, we, certainly us as a Panel here, believe that it's not out of place for such matters to be raised and aired at hearings of this nature. The question's not going to in any way implicate him in any wrongdoing, the question is therefore allowed, but on the other hand we're not going to force anybody to express their feelings in this matter. So all that I can rule is that the question is fair, but it's up to the witness to answer or refuse. It's up to him if he wants to express his regret or explain why he feels regret. It's up to him, he can tell us.

MR RHEEDE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Could you just give me a moment with Mr Hardien, if I could just explain this to him. Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that he does not want to talk about it, so I think we should continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Gakkie, we as the victims are here today to finally hear the truth, so that we can place that part of our history behind us and continue with the future. Are you willing to assist us in this process and tell the truth to this Committee?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You understand that it was is an offence to tell lies under oath?

MR HARDIEN: I understand that, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now is it true and that both of us grew up together in Kewtown?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: We lived approximately 100 metres from each other.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And at a certain stage you were quite involved in the community, with a soccer club and with other activities in the community where you attempted to keep the youth off the streets, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: At that stage you also did a lot of good things, you did these things to prevent that some of the young men became gangsters, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words at the stage when I met you, you did very good things for the community and in the community, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: We became friends, we had discussions with each other and so forth and the two of us had a good relationship at a certain stage, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: You even asked me to join the soccer club, I was the secretary of the soccer club and so forth?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you see me drink or smoke?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Or fight in the community?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Or argue with people?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you get the impression that I care for the community and I tried to assist them and help them and I want our community to go forward?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, is it so that at a certain stage when politics became prominent in the community - and I want you to bear in mind there was a time when there were no boycotts or riots, I'm talking about the stage when it was '83/'84, when there was talk that the UDF was established, so people started talking about politics, but there were no actions really in the community, can you recall that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that the two of us had a discussion about politics and we joked about it and you always said that: "No, I'm on the side of the white man" and I always said the opposite or said that I was against the State dispensation and we talked about it and we never argued about it, but as normal people we had discussions about it, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, we had a lot of conversations, but I cannot exactly say that we had that specific conversation.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but now I'm trying to tell the Committee what our relationship was, we knew that we did not believe in the same things in terms of politics, to such an extent that we believed in completely different things, opposite sides of the political spectrum, but apart from this we did get along. Now do you know me as a person with which you can differ ideologically, my view on life, politics, soccer, but I will still be able to have a relationship with you on a normal and proper way and even attempt to talk to you and try to convince you to believe in - to change your mind, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, let us talk about Kewtown. The Committee and many people here do not know Kewtown as a community, you and I come from that community and we know the factors that play a role, why some of our young men become gangsters in the community. We do not condemn the community but it is so that some of the young men who live in Kewtown turn to gangsterism, they become part of certain gangs.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that there is not a lot of young people who come from our community who at the end of the day go to university or as the people say, made something of their lives, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And will you agree with me that at that stage when I was at university, then there were probably at the most 10 people in the community who went to university?

MR HARDIEN: I was not aware of it. I know that Mr Williams went.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that myself, Oesman Alexander, Chris Ferndale, Bruce Malgas, our girlfriends, mine and Oesman's girlfriends were some of the few who lived in the community and also reached that level of education? Apart from us there were probably three or four more, can you deny that or dispute that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words there were not a lot of young people who were interested in learning?

MR HARDIEN: I would agree with that, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Just for a minute or two I'd like to talk about gangs in Kewtown. For you who came from this community, it's very easy for you to spot a gangster, you can easily say this is one or that's one and for the community itself it's very easy to determine who are part of a gang and who are not, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now how do you know who is a member of a gang, who is a gangster, who is not a gangster?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, you come from Kewtown, you yourself know how you know if somebody's from a gang or not.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that at that stage the gangsters held meetings at the Athlone North School, they were involved fighting for example, they committed crimes together and because of those facts you can then infer that they were gangsters or not gangsters and sometimes it's very difficult for somebody who did not grow up in such an environment or in such a community, to understand what the relationship is between a person who grew up in that community but who did not turn to gangsterism. And I'd like to deal with that specific aspect now.

Can you tell the Committee what would happen with you as a person if you grew up in that community, but you - let's say for example, you are a young man, you do not greet the gangsters, you never talk to them, you just walk past them, will this place your life in danger?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that's so.

MR WILLIAMS: It could be your opinion, but my opinion is that if you pretend that you do not know them or you do not want to associate with them, it is possible that you can place your life in danger.

MR HARDIEN: This is how Mr Williams saw it.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it possible that it is so?

MR HARDIEN: I do not believe in it, no.

MR WILLIAMS: And if it seemed, or if the gangsters thought that you were antagonistic towards them or had a negative attitude towards them, they could possibly have assaulted you.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, it's possible, if you did something to them.

MR WILLIAMS: I will come back to that at a later stage.

Gakkie, you know that myself and Oesman, Bruce Malgas, Chris Ferndale, we were part of the Kewtown Youth Movement, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you attend any of our meetings?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I did attend some of the meetings when you had the Youth Movement meetings. I was with the youth to P.E., I went with them to P.E., Chris Ferndale was the Chairperson then.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe we should just discuss that quickly. In 1983 I was a member of your soccer club, was that before or after that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall, I'm not sure if it was before or after, but the Kewtown Football Union Board team went to go and play there and the Kewtown Youth Movement organised it. So we all went down, it was the Netball and the Football, the works.

MR WILLIAMS: I will make a statement to you that the Kewtown Youth Movement was established in '81 or '82, I'm not quite sure of the year myself, but they were established then and they still exist and I'd like you to comment on that.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall the years and when they were established, I cannot answer you.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I joined the Kewtown Youth Movement at the end of 1982 or early in '83, and I assume that when you went to P.E., I hadn't joined yet.

MR HARDIEN: I do not know, I do not know if Mr Williams was with us or not.

MR WILLIAMS: But you will not dispute that the Kewtown Youth Movement has existed for a long time, it existed before the boycotts.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot answer you because I do not know, it's a very old movement, I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: And you who grew up in Kewtown and people in general know who the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement are.

MR HARDIEN: The people of Kewtown?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes. In other words, you yourself or various other people in Kewtown know that that is now the Kewtown Youth Movement walking there, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And I will put it to you that the reason why they know this is the Kewtown Youth Movement, as you have just testified, the Youth Movement organised a lot of functions, we arranged sport, bazaars, fetes, we walked around in the community and we even distributed political pamphlets, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I think so, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So it was very easy for one to know who the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement were, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now at a certain stage you provided the CCB with a list of the names of the Kewtown Youth Movement, Oesman, Chris Ferndale, Bruce Malgas, Glen Joseph, Merle Thomas, Boetie who is teaching at Spes Bona, you gave them all their names, can you give the Committee any other names of people who were members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: You cannot.

MR HARDIEN: Because I did not know them.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that Nathan Erasmus was a member of the Kewtown Youth Movement, will you be able to tell the Committee yes or no?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know him, I cannot say yes or no because I do not know him.

MR WILLIAMS: You do not know his name?

MR HARDIEN: No, I do not.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that he's in the audience, that person sitting next to Oesman, that is Nathan Erasmus.

MR HARDIEN: I did not know him them.

MR WILLIAMS: But you did know that he was a member of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR HARDIEN: Well I did not know that he was a member.

MR WILLIAMS: And how members in general, if you make an estimate, belonged to the Kewtown Youth Movement, or can you not give an estimation?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that at a certain stage there were approximately 35 or even 50 members who belonged to the Youth Movement, will you be able to dispute it?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot because I do not know how many. If Mr Williams says it, yes it's so, I cannot answer.

MR WILLIAMS: Now the information that you gave to Slang van Zyl, the names that you mentioned, did you tell Slang that this is the management team, or these are just general members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall what I told him, but I told him: "These are the Kewtown Youth Movement's people."

MR WILLIAMS: But you did give a certain amount of names to him.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And am I correct in my summation, these were names of people whom you personally knew and because of that you handed him the names?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, it's correct, because I knew they belonged to the Youth Movement.

MR WILLIAMS: And the other members who you did not mention, and the reason why you did not give him the names was because you did not know the names.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I did not know them.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, the list consisted only of names of people who you knew?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know who the managing team was of the youth?

MR HARDIEN: Well, I thought it was you, your group, the people who I knew would manage it.

MR WILLIAMS: Who are these people?

MR HARDIEN: It's Williams, Oesman, Chris, Bruce, Boetie.

MR WILLIAMS: Who?

MR HARDIEN: Boetie. I do not know Boetie's real name. And Merle who lived in my block, in the same residential block.

MR WILLIAMS: So these are the names that you provided them with because you knew them?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Then apart from the one opportunity when you went with the Kewtown Youth Movement to P.E., were there other opportunities when you attended meetings?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I will put it to you that from the day when I became a member of the Kewtown Youth Movement, in all the meetings that I attended of the Kewtown Youth Movement, you never attended one meeting, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say if it's correct or not correct because I cannot recall if I attended any other meetings.

MR WILLIAMS: You could possibly have attended functions in the community which we arranged or organised, but if Kewtown Youth Movement had a meeting in a hall, then you did not attend it.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I just told you I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: And Gakkie, is it so that generally the people knew that we held meetings at the Early Learning Centre, even the children knew, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct, everybody knew that you held meetings there.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, they were not secret meetings, if you were interested in joining you were free to come and attend a meeting, is that true?

MR HARDIEN: If you say so, yes, it must be so, anyone can join.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes but I'm talking about your own experience and knowledge, in that you part of the community, although politics were going on, we differed but we still got along.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And you knew that I would not chase you away if you wanted to attend a meeting or if you even wanted to join the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that if you wanted me to assist you in anything I would have done it? There was a time when you asked me to write a letter to one of the candidates for the election, Mr Anthony, I think it was him, and you knew that I knew that you cannot read and write, is that not correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that at a certain stage you informed me that Mr Anthony wanted you to help him with the election, but you then told me you feel that you do not want to assist him with the election, that you wanted to do it in the proper way and can I not write a nice letter to him and explain it very clearly why you do not want to assist him, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you not recall that you asked me to write you a letter at any stage?

MR HARDIEN: It could be. I know that I assisted Mr Anthony.

MR WILLIAMS: But maybe you will remember better if I give you the background, maybe then you'll be able to remember. That in a very nice way you wanted to convey to Mr Anthony that you're not interested and you wanted me to write a very nice letter, no threats, nothing like that, just short and sweet, you're not interested in helping him anymore. Do you recall asking me to help you write that letter?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall it because I assisted that man until the elections were over.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, some of the activities of the Kewtown Youth Movement, the activities they organised, is it so that we organised fetes, tournaments, you yourself organised tournaments, we organised dances, games evenings, etcetera, and even a health day to assist people in the community, can you confirm that?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, you held a lot of functions in Kewtown.

MR WILLIAMS: And what was your impression of our movement, that we wanted our community to move ahead, to grow, that we wanted to build up the community, that we did not want the community to be broken down, is that correct? Was that your impression?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And you do know that, or everybody knows that we distributed pamphlets of a political nature that for example, in some of the pamphlets - I know you found it difficult to read them, but some of the pamphlets, for example, said that the tricameral parliament does not include or does not give us, the Indians and the Coloured people full rights, so the people must not participate in it, because it was not good for our community. But that was basically the information that we conveyed in these pamphlets, is that so?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall the pamphlets that you distributed.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, have you ever seen me light a tyre or throw a petrol bomb?

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall, no.

MR WILLIAMS: Have you ever seen some of the Kewtown Youth Movement do it, people that you know personally?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Have you seen them?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, definitely.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you give us the names?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know any of the names because I was busy with the campaign with Anthony, there were tyres placed in the roads, we could not pass through with all the people there and so forth.

MR WILLIAMS: But my question to you is, did you personally see the Kewtown Youth Movement members doing these things, or did you possibly see them at the scene?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I drove Mr Anthony's car and I had an argument with Chris and his people who were there. I do not know - it was the Athlone Civic Centre, I do not know if you are talking about the riots now and they were very involved in the burnings and I've met them there a lot, because I was not involved in these things.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, can you just tell me, you know the community, you know there are a lot of people in the community and if there is, for example, a fight or something happened in the community, the people will leave their homes to see what was going on, or do they run back into their homes away from the dangers?

MR HARDIEN: No, they come out.

MR WILLIAMS: It's a very curious community and I'm not trying to be negative now.

MR HARDIEN: I understand it.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So if an incident were to take place, many people would naturally have gone to the scene of the incident to see what was going on, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So my question to you is basically, the Kewtown Youth Movement members whom you knew and you saw with your own eyes, were they also involved? Did you see that they were involved with that sort of behaviour? Did you see them committing these acts themselves, or conversely, were they simply standing by and seeing what had happened, they way you knew your community?

MR HARDIEN: Are you referring to what I said about the tyres?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, I saw Chris there and other members.

MR WILLIAMS: But the question is actually, did you see them commit the act, or did you simply see them in the vicinity of where the act was committed?

MR HARDIEN: I saw them there.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see them committing the act?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well. So in other words, if I understand your evidence correctly you have never seen Kewtown youth members commit acts of violence or arson, they could possibly have been in the vicinity, but you never saw them commit these acts?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, according to your own knowledge, have I ever planted a bomb?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: have members of the Kewtown Youth Movement ever planted bombs, according to your own personal knowledge?

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, my instructions are to request whether Mr Williams could qualify as to whether he is referring to any stage or a specific point in time. I understood him to mean that this was at any stage, but Mr Hardien wants to know whether or not this is confined to a particular period in time.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Hardien, I apologise for perhaps not having stated it more clearly, but Gakkie my question is basically this, according to your personal knowledge, in other words what you yourself saw and knowledge that you carried within you, can you tell the Committee according to your own knowledge, that any of the Kewtown Youth Movement members planted bombs?

CHAIRPERSON: He wanted to know at what stage are you talking about.

MR WILLIAMS: At any stage.

CHAIRPERSON: At any stage.

MR WILLIAMS: That is according to your own personal knowledge.

MR HARDIEN: I don't know whether they planted bombs.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, if I understand your evidence before the Honourable Committee correctly, then it is that you never saw me or any other member of the Kewtown Youth Movement commit acts of violence or you never saw us plant or detonate any bombs, you never saw us lighting any tyres? Is my summation of your evidence correct?

Perhaps I can make the question easier for you.

MR HARDIEN: No, I understand now.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you want me to put it more simply?

MR HARDIEN: No, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he understands. You can answer the question then.

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And Gakkie, I'm assuming as I know you, that you would not have told anyone that we were doing that sort of thing, am I correct in that assumption? In other words, you would not have spread such lies about us, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: To who?

MR WILLIAMS: To any person. You've just said that you yourself know that you never saw us do certain things, so in other words you would not have said the opposite to any other person, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I'll be with you in a moment. Mr Williams, I understand your point, but I just wanted to consult with my legal representative and what I want to explain to you is that I never saw a bomb go off or anything like that. Whenever there was a case of arson in Belgravia, I always saw some of your members there, but I cannot say that they did it. Perhaps you understand what I mean now.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, I think I understand you, but the way I know you ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: I would have said that to somebody.

MR WILLIAMS: So you would have told them that you always saw members if there was a fire or something ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: That I always saw them at the scene.

MR WILLIAMS: It could also be that if you saw some of your neighbours there you would said that sort of thing to anybody. If you saw one of your neighbours every time there was a fire or something like that.

MR HARDIEN: I wouldn't have said it was my neighbour, because my neighbour might not have been in that business that Mr Williams and the others were involved in.

MR WILLIAMS: I think I understand what you mean.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, you understand what I mean.

MR LAX: Sorry, what business were they in?

MR HARDIEN: We had our differences, he believed what he believed and I believed what I believed and with the arson, if I saw them I always thought: "It's Pietie and them again that are causing all this shit." So I wouldn't have involved my neighbour in it as such.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that you thought they were doing those things.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.

But Gakkie, would you have said to anybody as a fact, that the Kewtown Youth Movement, although you just testified that you never saw any of the members committing such acts, would you have said to anybody that you knew that they Kewtown Youth Movement was involved in this because you saw them for example, and would you have put such facts to anybody?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, you would have lied?

MR HARDIEN: I wouldn't have said that I saw Pietie do it, but I would have said that I saw them at the scene of the fire. I would have said to myself: "Oh, it's them again."

MR WILLIAMS: But just tell the Committee, if tyres were burning in the road usually there would be hundreds of people in the vicinity.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So you wouldn't have been able to say who precisely would have been responsible for it, because you didn't see the person who committed the act, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: I've just told you I didn't see them, but if something like that happened my mind told me it's the Kewtown Youth Movement again, they're behind it.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you accepted that we were responsible for arson, in which areas, Belgravia Road?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, Belgravia Road.

MR WILLIAMS: Belgravia Road, Thornton Road.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Klipfontein Road?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, all of those in our environment, near to where we live.

MR WILLIAMS: So if something like that happened you would simply have believed that some of our people were involved, and was your reason for believing this that you knew that we were interested in politics?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I would say that.

MR WILLIAMS: Just tell the Committee, what was it that was burnt in the streets?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot tell you precisely what it was, but there were trucks which were burnt, I cannot tell you in precise detail that it was that truck or this bus, because Mr Williams as you know, you were rather busy.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know yourself who planted the post office bomb in Athlone and the Magistrate's bomb in Athlone?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot say that I know who it is and I don't know who it is.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you have any suspicion?

MR HARDIEN: Once again, if things like that happened and during that time there were many political things that were happening, in my mind I thought it's the Kewtown Youth Movement who's involved in this again. At that stage the UDF was prominent ...(intervention)

MR WILLIAMS: Yes Gakkie, but is it true that you thought that the UDF in general, as an organisation was comprised of many members who were busy with things, or did you narrow it down and say that you knew that there was a group of say, eight persons and that you knew it was that group? What was going through your mind?

MR HARDIEN: I thought that the UDF and Kewtown were aligned.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, we were part of a much larger movement?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you think that the larger movement was the UDF in its entirety, which were involved with all these things, or responsible for all these things?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And that was the information that you would have given to the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, can you recall that at a certain stage you asked me, or we were having a discussion, it was just the two of us and you said that you knew where you could obtain a lot of handgrenades and that sort of thing? Do you recall that we had such a discussion?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall that you told me at a certain stage that you had access to that sort of weaponry? I think it was in the same year, it was close to the Namibian election. You said that you had access to a lot of handgrenades and that sort of thing and that if the Kewtown Youth Movement wanted any of those things, we just had to say the word and my response to was that we weren't interested in that sort of thing?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall that I said that to you.

MR WILLIAMS: Then my question is, did you have access to those things, did you have connections in other words?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, let us just discuss the evening of the bomb incident, and before I refer to that I just want to tell you that there is a difference in your manner of evidence now and your previous manner of evidence, many of the things that you have said give me the impression that you are trying to tell the truth, that you have a few problems here and there, but that with many of the aspects you are trying to tell us the truth. Let us just begin with you and Slang and Calla who came from the airport and you went to Kewtown and at a certain stage, do you recall that I was in a meeting with other people ...(intervention)

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, sorry to interpose, but I cannot recall that it was Mr Hardien's evidence that they went from the airport to Kewtown.

MR LAX: No, they went from the hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can be clearer, because what he said here, Mr Williams, was that he went home after the airport with the bomb and then a little while later he went to the ELC and then later he met the others at the Bellville hotel.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I think I'm just skipping a whole lot of detail and I actually want to come to the hall itself.

Let's forget what happened before that, let's get to the point where you are on your way to the hall. You stopped near the hall ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the way to the hall by himself, or later with Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Later when you and Slang and Calla arrived there. I was in a meeting with some of our members and you entered the building, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Are you referring to that evening?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: Please repeat your question.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it so that I was in a meeting and that you entered the building and you called me out from the meeting and the two of us stood just outside the door and had a private conversation, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: What did we discuss in private?

MR WILLIAMS: We will get to that.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I know that I was with you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, we stood at the door talking to each other, but you will recall that I didn't know that you were outside, I was in a meeting. So you actually came to call me out of the meeting, you were standing partially in the hall or perhaps in the threshold of the door and you called me out, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: No, you were at the door and I called you. The door before you get to the seating which was there.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but do you understand that I wouldn't have stood at the door waiting for someone, because we were busy with a meeting. So it is my recollection that we sat there chatting and you approached and you called me out.

MR HARDIEN: No, I disagree, I found you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it possible that your memory has failed you in this regard? I will not use this against you. Is it possible that your memory may have failed you somewhat in that regard?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know, all I know is that I spoke to you in the doorway.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well. Gakkie, is it true that the place in the hall where the youth physically sat and conducted their meetings was probably a metre or two away from the place where you put the bomb? Is that correct, or do you not know?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know on which side of the hall the meeting was held.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but I put it to you that it was probably a metre or two, in light of evidence that we have heard, and the position of the bomb and our position where we sat that evening indeed we were a few metres away from where the bomb was planted.

MR HARDIEN: I don't know if you were in the boardroom or if you were in one of the offices or wherever.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Williams, if I could just ask a question on this.

When you went in earlier that day with the bag which contained the bomb and you put it in the hall, you said you put it in the hall near the corner, were there chairs in the hall? You said nobody was in the hall, but were there chairs in the hall, or was it empty?

MR HARDIEN: There were chairs along the walls, not for people to sit on, they were stacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something.

It just struck me, when you say you met him at the door, according to your recollection, which door was that? Was it the back door of the building, was it the door of the hall, was it the entrance ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: The front one.

MR LAX: The front door?

MR HARDIEN: Mm.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Springbok Road.

MR LAX: So you walked all the way round the building and you came into the front door?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR LAX: Sorry, my mike was off, can I just repeat the question for the record.

MR HARDIEN: If you are at the back you could go round via Joseph Stone to get to the entrance, because Joseph Stone's yard is adjacent to the premises, so it wasn't necessary to walk all the way round and I could just go through the fence to get to the back.

MR LAX: But in essence you'd have to walk around the building to get in through that entrance?

MR HARDIEN: No, I didn't go around, I used Joseph Stone's yard, because then I was right by the gate.

MR LAX: Mr Hardien you didn't walk through the brick walls that the building's made up of, you walked around the walls to the front. We've been there, we know what it looks like.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then it was the front entrance, that first entrance where the sign that says Early Learning Centre is on the wall.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Gakkie, the time that you and I had our conversation was approximately ten to eight that evening.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot confirm the time, I didn't have a watch on me.

MR WILLIAMS: And if you wanted to speak to any of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement that evening, who would you have wanted to speak to? Would you have preferred to speak with me or any of the other members?

MR HARDIEN: I went to you especially for a reason.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you came to me specifically?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Then how did it occur that I happened to be at the doorway?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps you cannot recall what took place that evening, but isn't it true that you called me out of the meeting because you wanted to speak to me specifically?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, when I arrived and wanted to open the door you were at the door already.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well.

MR HARDIEN: Remember I have to go through the gate before I can get to the door to gain access to the hall, there are two doors before you get to the hall, there's a small lounge there.

MR WILLIAMS: The evidence of the other applicants was that you said to Slang and them that all the managerial members were in the hall, did you convey that to them?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, wasn't the purpose to determine whether or not members of the Kewtown Youth Movement were in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: Please put your question again.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the purpose why Slang and them sent you in not to determine who was in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me to ensure that all the people had left and I had to see whether all of them had left.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words the only way to determine that everyone had left the building was to enter the building to see if there was still anyone there, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: But Mr Williams, long before they were to detonate the bomb I had to make sure that the people were leaving and I had to ensure that everyone had left.

MR WILLIAMS: But Gakkie, at the point where you and I spoke, had everyone left the building, or were there still people in the building?

MR HARDIEN: Some of the people walked out and I came to see you because I wanted to tell you something.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, we will come to that in a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you actually go into the building after Mr van Zyl had told you to go and check the people were gone? Did you actually yourself physically go into the Early Learning Centre and look into the hall where you had placed the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: I went in, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you look into the hall where you had put the bomb? This is the night after you went to check and see whether the people had left.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you see in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: There weren't any people inside. That was the first time that I went to check.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was that before you met Mr Williams or afterwards? At the door.

MR HARDIEN: It was subsequent. I'm not certain, I think I went to check three times. There were people coming out and walking off and I said to Mr van Zyl: "It seems to me as if there is nobody there."

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that the soccer club was there in the premises?

MR HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Gakkie, we are referring to the stage where you and I had a conversation. At that stage the youth were still busy with a meeting in the hall, is that correct?

MR LAX: Can I just check something before he answers.

Did you speak to Mr Williams more than once that night?

MR HARDIEN: I didn't hear your question.

MR LAX: Did you see Mr Williams more than one time that evening?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Only that one time? Please ask your question again because I just wanted to clarify that there wasn't any confusion about which occasion to you.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, when you and I spoke the rest of the Kewtown Youth Movement members were inside the hall and they were still busy with a meeting and I'm saying this because some of the members were still coming out, Glen and them, and they wanted to scold you, do you recall that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I don't recall that.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you agree with me that if it was your purpose to determine whether or not there were still people inside the hall, by nature of the situation you would have entered the hall or you would have stood at the door to see if there was anyone inside and possibly you would also have searched the boardroom to see if there were people there?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, the first time that I went to check there was no-one there and that was before I met you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: The second time people started coming out and driving off, then I went again and I said to Mr van Zyl that the people were leaving and they could see it for themselves as well.

MR WILLIAMS: So where was the car parked at that stage?

MR HARDIEN: Behind in the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: But can you recall that when you and I spoke you went from there out the front door to the Springbok side street of the premises, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: I walked around.

MR WILLIAMS: I beg your pardon?

MR HARDIEN: I walked around the building.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but remember I saw you leaving through the front door of the building to the Springbok Street side, can you recall that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I know I didn't walk down Springbok Street.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, you know the building, you know the place, you visited there quite often, I also know the place. If you wanted to wait for people, let's say for example you wanted to wait outside, let's just use this as an example, you were waiting for a girl to come out, where would you wait, in front of the building or at the back of the building? Remember that we always used the front of the building to enter and exit.

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR WILLIAMS: If hypothetically speaking, you would be waiting for a girl or for anybody who was inside the building and you were waiting for this person to come out, would you have waited on the Springbok Street side of the building which was the most general route that we used, or would you wait at the back?

MR HARDIEN: If I was waiting for somebody and I knew that they would come out the gate, I would wait at the gate.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but what side would that be on, the front or the back?

MR HARDIEN: The front.

MR WILLIAMS: And I'm assuming that you say this because you know that we always use the front of the building, even you yourself used the front of the building most of the time, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: I wouldn't say that because one wouldn't always enter via the front gate, sometimes they locked that gate and you'd have to use the side gate.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but we're referring to normal hours when you knew that there would be people in the building. Isn't is so that the most generally used side was the front side of the hall?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that's correct, they used that side every day and the back part as well.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever see me go through the back gate, because I put it to you that when I used that hall, for ninety percent of the time I must have used the front side, and you who knew the place and knew the community would have known that, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it not logical then that if you waited for people to leave the building that you will in front of the building because you know that's the general route the people used to leave the building?

MR HARDIEN: But Mr Williams, I told Mr van Zyl that the people parked their cars at the back. They will leave there, they will not walk right round the building, they will leave at the back gate.

MR WILLIAMS: We're not talking about the cars now Gakkie. Can you recall what my first car was?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I tell you it was white Datsun with red and blue stripes.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if you had a Datsun, I know that you're got a very smart car now.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: I do not know if you can call it smart, but anyway, my first car was a Datsun.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams if you say so, it is so, I cannot recall though.

MR WILLIAMS: And my second car was a Ford, which I still have. Is that true?

MR HARDIEN: I do not even know that you had a Ford.

MR WILLIAMS: Well apart from the other car, I've got no other vehicles. Do you know if I possessed any other vehicles? And the first time when I bought a car was in the beginning of 1992, before that I could not drive a car. Do you can agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: I know Mr Williams that while you were university you did not have a car.

MR WILLIAMS: Did I have a car or not?

MR HARDIEN: I do not think you had a car.

MR WILLIAMS: Well yes, that's true. May I should just correct this, the last year of my year at university I bought a car, that was in '92.

MR HARDIEN: Well I do not know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words in 1989 I did not have a car.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot tell you.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I will put it to you as a fact, will you be able to dispute that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot if you say that you bought a car in 1930, I can't deny or dispute it because you bought it in 1930.

MR WILLIAMS: Well Gakkie, I will put it to you that at the stage when the bomb exploded, in that period of time there were only three members who were associated with the youth movement, who had vehicles and who were privileged enough to have vehicles. That was Oesman, Bruce and Chris Ferndale. Can you recall that?

MR HARDIEN: I know Oesman had a car, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes and can you recall that Bruce had a car?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: And did Chris Ferndale have a car?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: So you can only recall one car which the Kewtown Youth Movement had at that stage?

MR HARDIEN: Well I knew Oesman didn't have a car, it was his father's car that was driving around and I knew that he used the car and I can give you the car's name because I drove in it a lot of times.

MR WILLIAMS: Well the fact of the matter is that at the time of the bomb, according to your knowledge, there was only person of the Kewtown Youth Movement who had a car, or possessed a car, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, Oesman had a car, but I cannot tell you or say to you if he was there with his car or not.

MR WILLIAMS: Well maybe you do not know this fact, but I will put it to you that at a certain stage when the bomb exploded, Chris Ferndale was not actively involved in the organisation and he also did not attend that meeting that evening.

MR HARDIEN: I will not know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: You did not see him there, did you?

MR HARDIEN: I tell you now I do not know who was inside at that stage.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but I will put it to you as a fact that that evening you did not see Chris Ferndale there because he was not there.

MR HARDIEN: I saw Mr Williams there, I did not see anybody else there who I knew.

MR LAX: Are you sure about that?

MR HARDIEN: Dead sure, yes. I saw Mr Williams and nobody else inside or in the meeting, because I was not in the meeting. So how can I see people in the meeting if I did not attend the meeting? Or did I misunderstand him?

MR LAX: Did you see anyone else coming out of the building that you recognised? Who you identified?

MR HARDIEN: I was sitting in the vehicle, in the car, and people left the building and cars pulled away, they drove away.

MR LAX: Did you identify the people who were leaving, by name?

MR HARDIEN: Not as far as I can recall. He can ask me the question again and maybe I will recall it then.

MR LAX: I'm asking you the question now, because you've just said the only person that you know who was at the meeting was Mr Williams. If he was the only person you know at the meeting, then anyone else who left out of the meeting, you wouldn't know them, isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: The reason why I told Mr Williams that I can recall him was because I saw him at the door. Inside I could not see - I'm now talking about the meeting, I could not see, but those who left I could recognise them, yes.

MR LAX: Where was the meeting happening?

MR HARDIEN: You went to go and look at the building, it was in the building. I cannot say if it was in the boardroom or in the offices, there were offices along the side of the building.

MR LAX: You see your job was to go and see who was there and whether they had left the building or not, how would you know who'd left the building if you didn't make sure where they were and how many of them there were?

MR HARDIEN: I went to go and look, to go and see, because the vehicles were leaving, I went inside, I told Slang: "Wait there's more people leaving" and we sat and waited. This is now not the time when I went to go and speak to Mr Williams.

MR LAX: The simple point is this, you've told us that there was only one person that you recognised, that you can identify, that's Mr Williams.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Did you identify anyone else after the meeting?

MR HARDIEN: When the meeting was finished?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: So there must have been more than one person at the meeting that you were able to identify.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, did you at any stage on that specific evening see Oesman Alexander?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not very sure, he could have been there, yes. I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: So you cannot recall if you saw Oesman there or not? Well the way I understand your evidence is that he was the only person, according to your knowledge, who at that stage had a car and had a connection with the Kewtown Youth Movement. So in other words, there were no vehicles of the Kewtown Youth Movement, or there was only one vehicle of the Kewtown Youth Movement, and that's Oesman.

MR HARDIEN: I would not say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that impression from his answer, Mr Williams. He did mention that somebody else drove his father's car, I think you were talking about whether people owned cars. So perhaps you should just clear it up. It's possible that people might have come in other vehicles, other than their own.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. He stated that Oesman drove his father's car.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, Oesman does not live very far from the hall, so I did not say that he arrived there with his car, I said he drives a car because it's his father's car.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see any of the Kewtown youth members with cars or vehicles they owned?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, there were various vehicles, I could not say who drove them and who came with them.

MR WILLIAMS: Then my next question to you is, did you see any of the members who attended our meeting, did you see some of them drive cars?

MR HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall who drove a car but all that I can say is that when the cars left and they moved out, I went back and I told Mr van Zyl: "The meeting is over, they're all moving out or leaving" and that is then the time when I met Mr Williams at the door, when I went back to go and tell them that the people are leaving. And that is the reason why I wanted to go to Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, what was your impression at that stage, that the Kewtown Youth Movement were there with vehicles? Knowing that we lived close to the building we usually walk to the building, what was your impression on that specific evening, that the youth were there with vehicles or cars?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, the Kewtown Youth Movement had various people they knew, they could have arrived with cars, their friends could have had cars who attended the meeting. There's nothing else that I can add or say, that's just what I thought.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see Oesman or myself get into a car that evening?

MR HARDIEN: No, I did not see you or Oesman in a car that evening.

MR WILLIAMS: So I will also put it to you that on that specific evening I did not get into a vehicle, not in my vehicle or in any of the Kewtown youth members' vehicles, I did not get into a car at all and you cannot dispute it.

MR HARDIEN: I do not know, if you say you did not get into a car, it's true, because I did not see you get into a car.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you will not lie and for example tell Slang: "There's Peter Williams getting into a car", is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: All that I told Slang was that the cars which are here belongs to the Kewtown Youth Movement or they are now leaving and the meeting is over. I did not say in detail: "There's Pietie getting into a car, there's Oesman getting into a Hyundai, and there's Chris getting into a bus", I told him: "Slang, the meeting's over, it's the Youth Movement leaving, it's their people, I'm just going to double-check to see if everything's clear, if all the people have left", he said: "Do so, because we must make a hundred percent sure that nobody gets injured and nobody gets killed", because I told him these were my requirements. Before I even told him that he told me: "Nobody must get injured and nobody must be killed."

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, your evidence is that you did not see me get into a car, did you see me leave the scene or the premises and go home?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I saw you at the door on the way out and I used my own brain and I said, well Pietie is the last one leaving, because the watchie is going to lock, and before I spoke to Mr Williams I spoke to the watchie and he knew me very well.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you knew that there was a night watchman on the premises?

MR HARDIEN: Of course, Mr Williams, I know this place.

MR WILLIAMS: You also knew that the night watchman sleeps over in the building, he guards the building at night.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I knew he slept there, but I did not know where he slept.

MR WILLIAMS: But you know that he sleeps inside the building, he does not sleep outside.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, he sleeps inside the building, it's a very big building.

CHAIRPERSON: Hopefully the night watchman doesn't sleep at all during the night. Mr Williams.

MR BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) cases a night watchman ...(indistinct - no microphone) because he fell off a chair whilst he was sleeping and ...(indistinct). The question was whether ...(indistinct) workman's compensation ...(indistinct)

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams I think it will be better if you can say he lives there, then the Committee will understand it better, because he lives there.

MR WILLIAMS: I agree with you, he was a caretaker. What is your answer?

MR HARDIEN: He lives there.

MR WILLIAMS: He's the caretaker.

MR HARDIEN: He's the caretaker.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you tell Slang van Zyl them that you knew that the watchman was going to be on the premises?

MR HARDIEN: To tell you the truth, Mr Williams, I cannot recall if I told him that the caretaker lived on the premises, it's possible that I did tell him that there's a day caretaker and a night caretaker.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, the way in which I understand your evidence you did not want anybody to be injured because of the bomb and you now knew that the caretaker is in the building, he sleeps in the building and if your intention was that nobody was supposed to be injured, you would have told him that.

MR HARDIEN: It's possible that I told him that, but I know the caretaker does not sleep in the hall. Or he does not live in the hall.

MR LAX: You just told us earlier that you didn't know where the man slept.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Well if you don't know where he sleeps, then how do you know he doesn't sleep in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: You are not going to allow a person to sleep in a hall that people use every day.

MR LAX: Why not, you can put his mattress there, roll it up in the morning, put it safely somewhere else?

MR HARDIEN: The way in which I see it is that you will not let a person sleep in a hall unless the people do not have homes and they can say yes, this is an overnight shelter and people can sleep there, but this is a hall that they use in the mornings, afternoons and evenings. So I do not think they'll let him sleep in the hall, there would have been a room, a small room somewhere where he could sleep.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Gakkie, let's come back to the time when we spoke with each other. You said you saw me standing at the door, I say you called me from the meeting, but let us forget about that for now. When you and I had this discussion, can you recall what you told me that evening?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, you testified earlier on that you told me that there's a bomb in the hall, that you planted the bomb there and that we had to leave, tell the truth, is that what you really told me?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: I will put it to you that you never told me that, because if you told me that I would have ran out of the hall, but what you told me when we spoke that evening was that you said that you received a threat, you cannot recall who, or you know that it is not one of the Kewtown Youth Movement, or you know that it was not I who threatened you over the phone and you also knew that it was not another member of the Kewtown Youth Movement, but you had a suspicion who it was but you knew it wasn't one of us. Isn't that what you told me that evening?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, we were not on good terms then, the Kewtown Youth Movement hated my guts, we were not on good terms, so how can I go to Mr Williams and say: "Somebody is threatening me and it's not one of you", but I hated you?

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, I know that there were some vibes between the two of us, or between you and members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, but is it not so that even at that stage you could still approach me and I could still have a normal conversation with you, is that not true?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, everybody from the Kewtown Youth Movement did not want to recognise me, they had said: "Kill him" and they did not want me close to them.

MR WILLIAMS: Wasn't this march or these placards after the bomb attacks?

MR HARDIEN: Before the bomb attack they Kewtown Youth Movement and myself, we did not understand each other very well.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is the fact of the matter not that although we knew this, the two of us could still have a good or a normal conversation? I could come to you and say: "Gakkie, you are on the wrong side", we could argue about that and we had some respect for each other?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, we were good friends and when you found out I was with Mr Anthony then, then things changed, so I cannot see how I could have spoken to you about things. We distances each other from each other, so I cannot say how I could have come to Mr Williams and say this or that to him, or you do not like me.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if it is so that we did not like you, would you still then have approached me and made a confession and said that: "I planted a bomb here and by implication you must now leave the place, because otherwise you'll be killed"? Does it make sense to you?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, what I told you was that you must all get out, you laughed at me and you said: "No, you're fucked up." Because if I say something else, I do not know what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just calm down.

MR WILLIAMS: That was probably also the first time that I swore at you.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I do not know Mr Williams as a person who swears, curses, but because we were not good friends anymore, Mr Williams was probably ...

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, will you go to anyone and say, who according to your evidence to not like you, and say to them that: "I planted a bomb", knowing that there's a bomb in the hall and that it will explode at any time?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not make use of the words: "It will detonate at any stage", I told you: "Pietie, all of you must leave because I planted a bomb there."

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but do you agree with me that no normal thinking person or a person who is sane will go to another person and say: "I planted a bomb", because the reason is very obvious, if a bomb detonates then the person whom you told this to will go to the police and say: "There's a person who just confessed and he said he just planted the bomb"?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I say I told I said that, there's nothing else that I can say. Whether Mr Williams will put it in a different way or think differently, but this is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: But does it make sense to you?

MR HARDIEN: It may not make sense to you, but this is what I said. Maybe it doesn't make sense to the Committee, but that is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: But my question is, does it make sense to you?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, it does make sense. If I tell you I'm going to hit you, I will hit you. It does make sense to me. It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me. If I tell you now I'm going to take your keys and I'm going to drive away with your vehicle, I will, I will take the keys and drive away with your vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you said to Mr Williams, who was at that stage a person you didn't like, that you had planted a bomb, were you not afraid or worried that he might go to the police and report you and then you'd get arrested and go to jail?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not even think of the fact that I would be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is what Mr Williams is asking, why not? I mean if somebody came here and said: "Look they've planted a bomb here, we must all get out", he must reasonably expect that he's going to be reported to the police and that he'll get arrested. And in fact it's a serious offence.

MR HARDIEN: At that stage I did not worry.

MR LAX: You see even to make a false claim is an offence.

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: Even if you made a false claim, even if there wasn't a bomb and you went there and said to people: "I put a bomb in this place" and everyone panicked and ran out, that's an offence in itself.

MR HARDIEN: As I said, I did not worry, I told him it as I just put it.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I see it's 1 o'clock now, shall we adjourn now or later?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's just past 1 o'clock, we'll take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS: (Cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Gakkie, the car that you used that evening, to transport Slang and Calla, was it Sulaiman Stanley's car?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that name, Mr Williams, I didn't catch the first name.

MR WILLIAMS: Sulaiman Stanley. S-u-l-a-i-m-a-n.

And did you tell Sulaiman why you needed his car?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he have a suspicion why you needed his car?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Sulaiman know that you were involved with the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And the bank account into which your money was deposited, was it Nasmie Passier's account?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, what money was deposited in his account?

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps you could answer that.

MR HARDIEN: We were paid through the bank and I didn't have a bank account. Is that what you wanted to know?

MR WILLIAMS: Is that now ...

MR HARDIEN: Council. My money was paid into that.

MR WILLIAMS: Did the CCB pay you into the bank account?

MR HARDIEN: No, it was my own money which was paid in.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, did the organisation pay you in cash at all times?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you in turn pay that money into his account?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Then which money went into his account?

MR HARDIEN: My salary that I earned every month.

MR WILLIAMS: From the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: The word that I did for the Council.

MR LAX: He was a supervisor at the Athlone Swimming Pool.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Did Nasmie Passier know that you were involved?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And I think one of the applicants said that at a certain stage you said to them that a Coloured woman was going to help you to plant the tree, or that a Coloured woman was also involved, do you know anything about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpretation was in "planting the tree".

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, it was my own negligence.

CHAIRPERSON: The bomb.

MR LAX: It's a nice Freudian slip, isn't it?

MR WILLIAMS: Planted the bomb.

MR HARDIEN: No, I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: But would you have told anybody that a Coloured woman assisted you?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: But if you had said anything like that - you said that you cannot recall, but if you had said that, who would that Coloured person have been?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know to which Coloured person you are referring.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a woman who would have assisted you at any stage?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall. If I could recall I would be able to tell you.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a possibility that a lady would have assisted you with the commission of this offence, but that you would not be able to recall the name?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall, Mr Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a problem remembering things, Mr Hardien?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is Nasmie Passier? Who is this person that Mr Williams mentioned, Nasmie ...

MR HARDIEN: He played soccer for my team.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: You and him spent quite a lot of time together at that point.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: He was quite a young man, he was approximately 15 or 16, I think.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was he 15 or 16 and had a bank account?

MR WILLIAMS: The Chairperson asked a question, will you respond to that.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: You spent nearly every day together during that time.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: If I recall correctly, you told me that at a certain stage you went to South West Africa or Johannesburg, did Nasmie know that you were going to these places?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know if he knew.

MR WILLIAMS: But didn't he ever ask you what you were doing there?

MR HARDIEN: No, he never asked me.

MR WILLIAMS: But I'm assuming that he knew that you were going there.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot respond, I don't know if he knew, because if I left I just said: "I'll see you again."

MR WILLIAMS: But can you remember that many people in Kewtown knew that you were going either to South West Africa or to Johannesburg? I personally also knew and the statement is that many people in Kewtown knew that you were going there. Is that correct or not?

MR HARDIEN: Many people knew because I said I was going, or I said that I was going, but not anybody knew that I was going to South West Africa or Johannesburg specifically.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, when you were in South West Africa, did you by any chance phone Eunice or someone at the Early Learning Centre, and tell them that you were in South West Africa and that Eunice had to give a message to Nasmie?

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you phone anybody in the community or anybody else, with the exception of Slang, to tell them that you were in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I didn't even tell my own people where I was.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know the name Anton Lubowski?

MR HARDIEN: No. At a much later stage, as it appeared on the news, I came to hear of Anton Lubowski and such things.

MR WILLIAMS: So at the stage when Anton Lubowski was assassinated, you heard over the news that he had been killed?

MR HARDIEN: Not at the same time, but I did hear later that Anton Lubowski had been shot. As I watched television, the story unfolded.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you know who Anton Lubowski was?

MR HARDIEN: No, I didn't know the man.

MR WILLIAMS: But I know that you didn't know him personally, but didn't you know to which organisation he belonged and that he was possibly an enemy of the State?

MR HARDIEN: No, I didn't know.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm just asking you this because when we heard - or before I say this, is it true that before his death, you were in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I don't even know when the man died, I don't know in which year, on what day, in which month.

MR WILLIAMS: But you heard that the man had died, you heard so on the news, isn't that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, the news was covered with the story.

MR WILLIAMS: Before you heard that report, were you there before, perhaps several weeks of months before that?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't even know in which year or during which month I was in South West Africa, if he were shot before or after, I don't know. I beg your pardon, I don't even know how many years ago he was shot.

SIBANYONI: But when the story came in the newspapers, was it after you had been to South Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall whether it was before or after, I simply cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Were you in Namibia when Lubowski shot dead?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know, I don't know whether it was before or after his death, I cannot recall, because if I say it was a day before his death, then I must have seen how they shot him or I must have known when they shot him. I don't even know when they shot him, I don't know during which year, during which month.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it true that at a certain stage W/O Barkhuizen, took possession of certain documents in your house?

MR HARDIEN: Could you repeat that please?

MR WILLIAMS: Did W/O Barkhuizen at any stage take possession of, or confiscate documents from your house?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know, I wasn't there. I beg you pardon, I don't even remember the name that you've uttered. I don't even know him.

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps I could refer you to Barkuizen's statement and this in bundle B, page 238. Gakkie, would you dispute if Barkhuizen says that he obtained documents in a briefcase, or that the documents were found in your house and that these documents stated that on the 10th of August 1989, you went to Windhoek?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot dispute that because I wasn't there when he came to fetch these things.

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I would just like to make a possible amendment, Barkhuizen's statement refers to documents which were obtained in the boot. I don't know if Mr Hardien will be able to assist with that, but that is what the affidavit says, it does not state that the documents were obtained in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Rheede. Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR HARDIEN: Perhaps I could offer more insight on this to Mr Williams. When I was arrested my car was parked at the garage and I don't know who came to fetch my car or what happened, but I cannot say who Mr Barnard is. I wasn't there, I was away.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, on page 240 of the same bundle there is a statement which states

"I, Hardien, date of issue: 1989/08/07 (that's the 7th of August), Windhoek to Johannesburg. Date of flight: 1989/08/10"

meaning that on the 10th of August 1989 you were on flight from Windhoek to Johannesburg. Would you dispute that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot dispute it because I know I was in Windhoek.

MR WILLIAMS: So if I recall correctly, Mr Lubowski was shot two days later.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry Mr Chairman, that was the 12th of September, if I'm correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, 12th of September.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you dispute that a month before his death you were in South West Africa?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot dispute it, I cannot say yes or no. I don't know on what day the man was shot, I just know that I was in South West Africa, and that's all.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you monitor him at any stage?

MR HARDIEN: Never, I don't even know what the man looked like.

MR WILLIAMS: I will leave it at that.

MR HARDIEN: I don't even know if he's black, blue or pink or yellow.

MR WILLIAMS: I will leave it at that. Gakkie, you have told us that you knew that if we used the hall, most of the time people would be using the front entrance.

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon, what front entrance?

MR WILLIAMS: The front entrance to the Early Learning Centre building. Just for the sake of clarity, the front entrance is situated on Springbok Street and the back area with the parking area. Do you know what I'm talking of?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand.

MR WILLIAMS: And you suspected more-or-less that people would be using the front side or front entrance of the building, or that they would be exiting the building from the front entrance.

MR HARDIEN: Once again Mr Williams, I knew that if people came to the hall they could use the front entrance or the back entrance. I thought that once the cars were moving and people were driving off, the people would be using the back entrance of the building and not the front.

MR WILLIAMS: Let us look at your statement. Earlier you stated that you lied about some of the facts in the statement and so forth, but there are certain facts which are reflected in your statement on page 155, and I just want to test whether or not this is the truth.

From the fourth paragraph onwards it says:

"After approximately 5 minutes, or even shorter, I got up and entered the hall of the ELC with the bag. I know that the UDF used this hall for meetings. A trestle table was standing inside the hall against the wall. There was an empty apple cardboard box which stood on top of the table. I put the bag into the box and walked out. There was no-one in the hall."

Is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: It's not correct. I beg your pardon, it is not as you have read it.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes. Can you tell us how your version differs from what appears in this statement?

MR HARDIEN: Must I reiterate it?

MR WILLIAMS: Please just tell us in what regard.

MR HARDIEN: Can I tell you how I planted the bomb?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR LAX: Just tell us what's different between what's said here in the statement and what actually happened. What's the difference?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I arrived at the hall, I planted the thing and I left again. It is correct about the trestle table and the box, all of that is correct. And then I left.

MR WILLIAMS: So that is what I have just read out. It is correct then.

MR HARDIEN: It is correct regarding the fact that I set the thing down on the table and that there was a box on the trestle table. That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it also correct that an empty cardboard apple box was situated on top of the table against the wall?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I put it in the box.

MR WILLIAMS: And then you left?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And there was no-one in the hall at that stage, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, you would agree with me that what I've just read out is in fact correct? That it is the truth.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, what I just said.

MR WILLIAMS: So what you just said corresponds with what appears in this statement, is that so?

MR HARDIEN: I don't agree with what appears in the statement, I agree with what I've just said.

MR RHEEDE: Sorry to interpose, Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Rheede, if I could just ask Mr Hardien.

What you've told us now is the same as what was read out, except for waiting for five minutes.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Or a shorter period.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So how long did you wait, or didn't you wait at all?

MR HARDIEN: I put the thing down and I left.

MR LAX: So the only difference is that you walked straight into the building, through that door, went into the hall, put it down and left.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So in essence, the section that I just read out is basically what occurred.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And the person who took this statement from you, where would he have obtained those facts? Are these facts that you gave him?

MR HARDIEN: Who compiled this statement?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes? I'm referring to a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the statement that was made when you were in detention after your arrest. It was signed at Secunda.

MR HARDIEN: Now I understand. If you tell me where the statement was made, then I understand.

MR WILLIAMS: Could I just give you somewhat more context. At the beginning of the statement it says

"I have already made a previous statement but that statement is not the truth. I'm about to tell the truth, because it is better to tell the truth than to tell lies."

That is the statement to which I am referring, do you now have a better idea of which statement I am referring to?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand now, the statement that I made under Section 29.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify? It may not be the only one you made under Section 29, we don't know that for a fact, because it says in this statement that you have made other statements, but it's the only before us and to clarify it beyond doubt, it's the one you made to Lieut-Col Eager.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So you would agree that the section that I just read out is indeed what you said to Col Eager, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And then in the same paragraph, at the bottom on the page you state

"We sat in the parking area for approximately 10 minutes. De Wet looked at his watch and said that he wanted to see when the people came out of the meeting."

My question is, all of us know that when you refer to De Wet, you are actually referring to Slang van Zyl. Is it correct that Slang van Zyl glanced at his watch and said that you had to go because he wanted to see when the people would come out of the meeting. Do you recall that he said that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: But by nature of the situation, would he have said something like that, that he wanted to see when the people came out of the meeting?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall, I cannot tell you whether he asked me or told me.

MR WILLIAMS: And the statement says

"I drove to Kewtown and parked in Lower Klipfontein. From there we could view the entrance of the ELC."

Is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Why do you say that?

MR HARDIEN: Because it didn't happen that way.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you make such a statement to Col Eager?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know what I said to the man, I just wanted to get out there, they weren't really worried about me, they wanted to know who the big fish were. They said: "Gakkie, you are just a small fish, say what you want to say."

MR WILLIAMS: But wouldn't you agree with me that it is probable that you were the only one who would have been able to tell them that you parked in Lower Klipfontein Road, and they're quite specific when it comes to the name of the road. You're the only person who would have been able to convey such specific information to him.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say that I said that to him.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a possibility that you may have said it to him?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot tell you, I cannot recall whether or not I said it to him, whether I gave him that name. I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Furthermore the statement states

"We were approximately a hundred metres away from the entrance. We saw people coming out of the building."

Is that so?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot recall whether I said all of these things to the man.

MR LAX: Well how far were you from the building when you stopped the vehicle? Did you actually stop and observe the back of the building?

MR HARDIEN: We did stop, yes.

MR LAX: But you weren't a hundred or more metres away from the building?

MR HARDIEN: When I was asked how far away it was, I said we were there, you will understand if I say from the bend or the corner to the building. That was the distance. I told the Committee, because they were there and they would understand the distance if I indicated that it was from the corner to the building. You can't say that it's a hundred metres or two hundred metres, that is the way that I can recall the distance and the Committee should understand this because they were there and they viewed the premises.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct - no microphone) isn't that so?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: You know how long a soccer field is.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: It's about a hundred metres, roughly a hundred metres, isn't it?

MR HARDIEN: A hundred and fifty.

MR LAX: 15...? Was it as long as a soccer field away?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR WILLIAMS: And would you agree that Lower Klipfontein Road is situated in front of the building?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm getting confused now Mr Williams, I thought Springbok Street was in front, at the front entrance, or are there two roads? I can only recall seeing one road at the front.

MR WILLIAMS: There's a road parallel to Springbok Road.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the building?

MR LAX: But which side of the building is it?

MR WILLIAMS: It's on the front side of the building, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: From Asmiel's side?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that's Lower Klipfontein Road.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, if you stand at the end of Lower Klipfontein Road, will you agree that Lower Klipfontein Road, or Springbok Road joins Lower Klipfontein Road? So if you stand on the corner you can see the front of the Early Learning Centre.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Let us look at the same statement, page 156 of the bundle, the third paragraph, the larger paragraph states

"I drove in to Lower Klipfontein Road and the person who sat behind, the man handed over something to De Wet."

I assume that you said that Calla gave something to Slang, but is that statement correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, but I do not agree with the roads that you just mentioned. I do not agree with the roads, because we were not there.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so. In other words, one of two conclusions can be drawn, either the person who drew up the statement is lying ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: I will not say that Mr Williams, because you must remember that I did not compile this statement alone, Peaches gave a statement before I did and they asked him everything concerning the roads, etcetera.

MR WILLIAMS: So are you therefore insinuating ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: No, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying what Mr Williams is saying now, that the person lied about it. What I'm telling Mr Williams is that two people of Kewtown were there and they made the statement, so I do not know what they said.

MR LAX: Can you just sit a little further back from the mike, because it distorts when you get too close.

MR HARDIEN: Sorry.

MR LAX: No, it's okay.

MR HARDIEN: Because he knew Kewtown the way I did.

MR WILLIAMS: Well forget for a moment about the road or the name of the road, but is it so that at a certain stage Calla handed something over to Slang?

"It looked like a pack of 20 cigarettes"

MR HARDIEN: No Sir, I cannot recall that.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, Mr Williams?

You've said now that Peaches told them everything about the roads.

MR HARDIEN: About the roads.

MR LAX: Well was there a map with names of roads and stuff before you when you were trying to explain all of this to them?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Chairperson, I do not know. If they asked him about the street names he would have answered them, if they would have asked him where are the roads, he would have explained where they were.

MR LAX: Yes, but if they were writing your statement they wouldn't know where, which road you stopped in, you'd have to tell them what road it was, surely.

MR HARDIEN: Correct, but I did not say anything about Springbok Road because I was not in Springbok Road, in Lower Klipfontein Road or Springbok Road.

MR WILLIAMS: What are you saying, are you saying that at no stage you turned into Klipfontein Road or Springbok Road on that specific evening?

MR HARDIEN: No, I'm not saying that I was not there at all, I'm talking about what Mr Williams mentioned, in that the statement said that we parked and you could see the building from Lower Klipfontein Road's side. This is now from the corner. I'm talking about that. We never parked there. We never stood on that corner.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, you just drove and you were moving the whole time but you were in that road, is that what you are saying?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct, we had to drive around there. I'm sorry Mr Williams, you know the Joseph Stone brick lane where you cannot cross, you have to cross there.

MR WILLIAMS: I do not understand. Is your evidence basically then that you were moving when one person handed something over that looked like a calculator, he handed it over to Slang van Zyl? Was the car moving?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, the calculator I saw that when we were behind the building, it was not while I was driving that they passed a package that looked like a packet of 30 cigarettes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Slang have something or take something like Penlite batteries out of his suitcase and replaced the batteries in the calculator?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall Mr Williams, I was the driver.

MR WILLIAMS: And at the stage when the bomb exploded, were you in front or behind the building?

MR HARDIEN: We were at the back of the building.

MR WILLIAMS: How far were you from the building?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I will not be able to say to you how many metres it was, I do not have to explain to Mr Williams, it's from the corner of the lamppost before you take a turn if you want to go to the butcher or the civic or around to Athlone. Mr Williams knows what I'm talking about now.

MR WILLIAMS: What I can infer from what you've just said, you had to very close to the building.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot say if it was 30 metres or 20 metres, all that I can say is you know what I'm talking about, you know where the corner is in relation to the building.

MR WILLIAMS: I probably cannot take it any further.

Now Gakkie, I will put it to you as a fact that at the stage when the bomb exploded, both myself, Oesman and other members of the Cape Youth Congress, all of us were in the building. Can you dispute that or deny it?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot dispute it because I did not see you in the building.

MR WILLIAMS: And apart from us there were also two or three other soccer members in the building.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot argue with you because I did not see them.

MR WILLIAMS: And at that stage the lights were still on in the building because we were busy with a meeting, and we will not be having this meeting in the dark.

MR HARDIEN: You will not do it, it's obvious, because you won't be able to see anything, you won't be able to write anything.

MR WILLIAMS: So will you agree with me that the lights were on in the building? Are you agreeing that they were on inside the building?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot agree with you Mr Williams, that the lights were on, because when I looked the inside lights were off and the outside lights were on.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall what you told the Committee before?

MR HARDIEN: I told them that the lights on the walls were on. That is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall that a while ago you told the Committee you could not recall if the lights were on inside the building?

MR HARDIEN: No, I told the Committee that the lights were on outside, because they are on every single night.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you agree with me that you testified earlier on that you cannot recall if the lights were on or off in the building?

MR HARDIEN: I agree, because I cannot recall if they were on or off.

MR WILLIAMS: Is this still your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: Yes. But if Mr Williams says that he was still inside, then obviously the lights were on, because you cannot have a meeting in the dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Why Mr Williams is asking you this Mr Hardien, is that just now, ten seconds ago, you said: "When I looked inside the lights were off."

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So now you're saying that you can't remember whether they were on. So how can you not remember that they were on, but be definite that they were off? I can't understand that.

MR HARDIEN: The reason why I'm saying this is because Mr Williams said that he was inside, but obviously if you were inside the lights must have been on. But the outside lights against the wall, they were on.

MR LAX: No, you haven't understood the question, let me explain it for you, it's very simple. Now you've just denied that the lights were on, when Mr Williams was asking you a question you said they were definitely off. Earlier in your testimony you said you couldn't remember whether they were on or off inside but you were sure they were on outside.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: If you can't remember that the lights were on inside or not, how can you categorically say they were off? Do you understand the problem?

MR HARDIEN: I understand, Sir, but the reason why I'm saying this is because he said that he was inside, then I said it was obvious, if you were inside the lights were on. I cannot recall if they were on or off, because I know the outside lights were on. The reason why I'm saying that it was on is because he said he was inside with people. Maybe I'm explaining it in the wrong way.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: The exact section of the building where we were when the bomb exploded was what we called the boardroom. Do you know where that is?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I know where the boardroom is.

MR WILLIAMS: And maybe I should just explain to you what happened, that it is possible that it was completely coincidental that we were not in the hall that evening, because after the Kewtown Youth Movement left the meeting, some of our members or most of our members left via the front the building. Do you agree with that?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I've told you and the Committee that at the time when I went to the hall there was no-one in the hall. When we saw the cars moving away, I went to Van Zyl and I said: "Right, the people are now leaving, they are dispersing, there's no-more meeting going on." I did not see the Soccer Union's meeting or any other meetings because I was not inside the boardroom or in any other building or room.

MR WILLIAMS: But can you explain to me why you did not go in there, because you at the end of the day wanted to ascertain with certainty that people would not be killed because of what you are doing.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Then why did you not take precautions and go and see if there were people in the building?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I've already said that I planted the bomb in the hall and I ensured that there were no people in the hall. I did not care or worry about the boardroom or the offices because I did not go and plant the bomb there.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see there were no people inside the hall after we finished the Kewtown Youth Movement's meeting?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, before we left I went to go and make sure that there were no people in the hall.

MR WILLIAMS: Before we left? But we had a meeting in the hall.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, when I got there you were not even at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, when you went to look in the hall and you say that it was empty, was everything dead silent, was there no noise at all?

MR HARDIEN: At the hall there were no people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about, did you hear anything, did you hear any noises?

MR HARDIEN: There are sliding doors going towards the boardroom and if you close those doors you could not hear anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but my question is very simple, did you hear something or not?

MR HARDIEN: No, I did not hear any voices or anything.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, I will put it to you that there was a lot of movement in the front of the building and also inside the building itself, because it had to be very clear to somebody who entered the premises, that there were people in the building. Will you argue with me?

MR HARDIEN: I will not argue that there were people in the building because I did not see people, so I cannot dispute that or argue with you concerning that.

MR WILLIAMS: But there was a lot of movement from inside to outside and from outside to the inside.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not see any movements.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to look in the hall were the lights on or off when you looked in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: When I went to the hall the hall's lights were on, because after a meeting the caretaker will switch the lights off.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I put it to you that the course of events were as follows on that particular night. The Kewtown Youth Movement held a meeting in the hall, a few metres from where the bomb was planted ...(intervention) ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, there's no translation coming through that I can hear.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter apologises, he was on the wrong channel.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you said Mr Williams, please.

MR WILLIAMS: I would like to explain to you how the events followed that evening. The Kewtown Youth Movement held a meeting in the hall a few metres from where the bomb was planted, that approximately ten to eight you called me from a meeting and we had a discussion. Some of the Kewtown Youth Movement members came out and there was a disagreement between you and some of the members. You then exited the building through the front entrance. Because of the interaction with you and some of the youth we decided to end the meeting earlier than usual, so shortly afterwards we adjourned.

Some of the Kewtown Youth Movement members then left the hall through the front entrance of the building and at the same time members of the Cape Youth Congress appeared or arrived and asked if they can also use the hall for a meeting. I then used my discretion and I said yes. We were in the hall and we were planning to have the meeting in the hall when the Principal of the ELC arrived and he warned us and said we cannot use the hall because the soccer people were supposed to use the hall.

We then left the hall and went to the boardroom section and approximately ten minutes later the bomb exploded and the whole time, in this time that I've just talked about, there were soccer members who were in the entrance hall. So in the front of the building there were people. Is there any aspect that I've just put to you, can you dispute any of them?

MR HARDIEN: I disagree because I did not see any of these people there.

MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, who was the Principal at the time?

MR WILLIAMS: Beula Fredericks.

In the light of this, how do you understand your own statement? How do you explain the fact that there were people in the boardroom?

MR HARDIEN: I've inferred from what Mr Williams just said, well I just did not see you, the members or whatever you call them. I was worried about the hall because I placed the bomb in the hall. I ensured that there was no-one in the hall, because no-one was supposed to be injured or killed.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, if you now sit still and think back to the events of that evening, how do you think those people entered the boardroom?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot now think back to 11 years ago, about how I did things, who was there, if they were close to the bomb or not. Mr Williams, I cannot, really, I cannot.

MR LAX: May I just interpose.

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon. Mr Williams, I cannot recall because since I arrived here, this is now when I heard about the bomb again, etcetera, so if I did not come here I wouldn't have worried again about the bomb.

MR LAX: Mr Hardien, surely you must have realised that if there were people in other parts of the building they might be injured or even killed in the blast. Wasn't there a possibility that that might happen?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, possibly.

MR LAX: But weren't you worried about that?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I was worried and concerned about the people in the hall and I had to ensure that there was no-one in the hall, nobody will be injured and where I planted the bomb was towards the road, because I do not know of explosions and bombs and they just told me nobody must be injured, nobody must be killed, so place the bomb in such a way that nobody will be injured. And I believed that nobody will be killed or injured.

MR LAX: You've just conceded that you saw the possibility that someone might have been hurt in the rest of the building. You've conceded that, you can't go back on that now.

MR HARDIEN: I hear what you are saying Sir, that there's a possibility that somebody can be injured, but where I planted it and where Mr Williams said they were sitting in the boardroom, for me personally, and what they told me, where you are sitting now, or where you place it now, no-one will be injured.

MR LAX: You see what concerns me is that you didn't check the rest of the building. If a bomb goes off in a building, even if it's in a part of a building, it has an affect throughout the whole building. That's common sense, isn't it?

MR HARDIEN: I did not check the other places because I was worried about the hall, I wanted to ensure that there was no-one in the hall. And really, I just accepted that nobody would be injured because there's no-one in that hall.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Gakkie, but the statement that I'm actually putting to you is that from the stage - look, there was a stage when the youth were in the hall, where they made use of the hall, so at that stage there were people in the hall. People left the hall, so there was movement, and at the same time people entered from the outside, there's movement, and at the same time there were soccer club members sitting in the entrance hall. In other words there are people in front of the hall. So you had to see this. If you entered the building to see if we were in the building, this is now the second time, you had to see this.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not see any of those people. If the people from the soccer club were there, I do know them all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, if you're in a deserted building and you inspect a room and there's no-one there and then you leave it, you can expect, it will be reasonable to expect that in the next short period of time that room will remain empty, but if you're in a building where other people are - okay, you say you didn't check whether other people were there, but we know other people were there, you can look at a room and it's empty and you can walk away and then somebody can be in that room in three seconds time when you've gone. In other words, the fact that when you look the room and it's empty doesn't mean it's going to stay empty for the next five minutes.

MR HARDIEN: I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And to make sure that the room's going to remain empty, then one would expect to look in the other places in the building, the other rooms, to make sure that somebody won't come in after you turn your back and go.

MR HARDIEN: Unfortunately I didn't go and look at the other places, because as I've said before, I was just worried about the hall and about nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Was there a time when Calla and Slang attempted to activate the bomb and then it did not work? Was there such a stage?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say if it was so or not. I cannot recall. Mr Williams, you have to understand, 11 years ago is 11 years ago, I had a very short time with my attorney to go through all these things. We haven't even gone through it all and to ask me now if there were people or not, I cannot say yes or no. I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, just before I conclude, just a few more questions not specifically related to the incident itself. What other gang members were involved or were used by the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know what gangster were involved with the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: Clive Peters, Erwin Meyer, do you know them?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I know them, they're still with me now.

MR WILLIAMS: Were they involved?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you hear at any stage if they were involved?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say if they were involved, I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: Is Mzoli known as Ismail or is it the same person?

MR HARDIEN: I knew he turned Muslin, but I did not know what his name is. It's possible that his name's now Ismail, but I know him as Mzoli.

MR WILLIAMS: Was he involved at any stage?

MR HARDIEN: Not that I know of, no. He's never told me anything about his involvement.

MR WILLIAMS: If Mzoli was involved, would you have known about it?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, as you testified earlier on you know about a lot of things that happened in the community, people talk about it or they come to you personally and share it with you. If Clive and Erwin and Mzoli, or Ismail, were involved with the CCB, would you have known about it?

MR HARDIEN: I believe if they were involved they would have told me: "Look Gakkie, we're involved with these things again."

MR WILLIAMS: So according to your own personal knowledge you and Peaches were the only people who were constantly involved in the CCB?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, this is how I see it.

MR WILLIAMS: No-one else was involved? Are you sure about it?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say about the other people because I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: But if you knew would you have told the Committee?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, if I knew this and this person was involved and this one went there and this one went to the other side, I would have known and I would have told them about it.

MR WILLIAMS: So your evidence in this regard is a hundred percent, you do not know if any other of the members were involved?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot go and talk about people I do not know of.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Chairperson, this question is asked over and over again ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's made it clear that he's only aware of himself and Peaches as having been involved.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

So if any of the other applicants will come to the Committee and say that you said that they must not make use of Ismail, that he's unreliable and that he talks to the community, then that evidence will be false?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know who was with, I cannot say, I cannot deny it. I do not even know who he is.

MR WILLIAMS: There's evidence on record that you said, that you told Slang that they must not make use of Ismail.

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Petersen I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you say that Slang's evidence in this regard is false?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know, I do not know what Mr van Zyl said. I cannot recall if Ismail - let me call him Mzoli, if he worked for the CCB or if I told Van Zyl not to trust Mzoli, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: So if Slang would come to say this, then it's false?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not saying it's false.

MR WILLIAMS: The second-last aspect. Gakkie, you've already said to this Committee that you spoke to Zenzile them, you did not know that they recorded you.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand, I did talk to them.

MR WILLIAMS: And you told them certain things concerning CCB matters, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, Mr Williams. I will repeat myself, I wanted to get those people away from me because I did not trust them, I told them anything just so that they can say yes, okay, it's over. I told him myself these things I'm saying just because I don't want you here anymore. They came three times to my place and I chased them away and I told them: "I want nothing to do with you."

MR WILLIAMS: No, did you at any stage tell Zenzile that Jackie Lonti offered you R20 000 and a Grenada to kill Peaches?

MR HARDIEN: No, never.

MR WILLIAMS: The question is, did you at any stage tell Zenzile this?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall what I told him, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: But on page 162 of bundle B, this deals with the interview that you had with Zenzile and Mr Petersen and there it states

"HARDIEN: There is nothing that he can deny or argue about because he personally, who is Jackie, offered me R20 000 and a Grenada if I kill Peaches. The person who killed Peaches came to pick me up. He also came from my hands."

Did you make that to Zenzile?

MR HARDIEN: No, not at all, I cannot recall that I told him that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the tapes are available if you want to listen.

MR HARDIEN: I understand he taped me. I don't know. I want the Committee to know that all these things that I spoke about was because I just did not want them near me anymore. There was a time when he worked for a radio station where he came to interview me, so I did not trust them.

MR LAX: Ja, but you're saying you didn't tell him that.

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: You've told us now that you never said such a thing to him. The Chairperson has just told you that the tapes of this conversation, from which this transcript was made, are available if you want to hear them. Are you saying this is not a true reflection of that conversation?

MR HARDIEN: What I am saying Sir, is that we did have a discussion and if I said these things I will not argue it or deny it, because I just wanted them away from me. I'm not going to deny it, deny what the tape says. I will not deny it, because I know that I spoke to him.

MR LAX: Well that's different to what you said earlier, but we'll accept that answer for the time being. But then you're saying it was just a lot of lies?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, my second-last question is, what is your impression now of various former members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, that they became someone, that they turned out good in comparison to a lot of people in Kewtown area or community?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I feel very proud, you are a person from Kewtown, you're an attorney, same with Oesman and Bruce Malgas has got a very good job. I cannot talk about Chris Ferndale, because he's not from Kewtown, but they all have good jobs. Even your people, the same with Oesman, Oesman's mother, Bruce's mother feel proud because you came out at the top. Despite our differences I can now brag about you and I can say: "Lawyer? Yes, he's from Kewtown." Or Bruce who is in a position, I can say: "Yes, he's from Kewtown, we play soccer together." I cannot say anything bad although we've got out differences. I will give him his dues. If he's good he's good. Although we hate each other, if he's good he's good. It does not deter anything from it.

MR WILLIAMS: Well my last question to you is, if you had regret, the fact that you planted the bomb, and you said yes. Is there maybe a reason that you can give now why you are regretful planting the bomb there? This is my last questions.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, to now come and tell the Committee: "I'm so sorry I planted the bomb", is ridiculous. I did it, everybody knows that I did it. I'm not glad that I did it or happy about it, maybe then I was, but this is a new South Africa, we can walk hand in hand, we can go on jols together, we can ecstasy together. So to go and say now: "Oesman, sorry, Bruce, I'm sorry", no I will not, for what? I will say sorry to show the crowd - actually I know I did something wrong, I asked the Lord to forgive me. Maybe they will come to me and say: "Now Gakkie, we forgive you." I know they will not forgive me, so why would I ask them? If you really want to forgive me, then we can talk like I talked to Mr Williams. I can come to your office anytime and say: "Mr Williams, I've got a problem, can you assist me", and you will not close your door. Because there's a time when myself and Bruce fought on the soccer field, I cannot take this away from him. Mr Williams is now a new-born Christian, so I accept I can ask forgiveness from Mr Williams, because I know his heart is in the right place in terms of his Christianity, but mine is not.

MR WILLIAMS: Then there is a just a final amendment. Is it true that during the proceedings you and I had a conversation, you came to me and I said to you that I am not at liberty to discuss the facts of the matter with you, due to ethical reasons, but I would advise you to seek the assistance of a legal representative who will be able to see to your interests, that I would suggest to you that you do not approach any person or a legal representative who had an interest in this case but that you would appoint someone else and that you would only tell that person the truth? Is that what I said to you?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did I tell you at any stage that you should change your statement? Just think very carefully.

MR HARDIEN: Mr Williams, you told me that I should see to my own interests, that I shouldn't worry about Slang and the others, that they're sorted, that I should think only of my own interests and state exactly what happened, that you could not be involved in this case with me, because you are here as a victim and as a representative or a spokesperson for the victims and that is why you told me where to go. And I went to the secretary and I thought to myself, 'I still can't trust Pietie, he just wants to fuck me around again and mislead me'.

CHAIRPERSON: I gave you two telephone numbers.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct. You phoned me at home or the secretary or somebody phoned me, because my mother kept on telling me: "Pietie's people have been phoning you", or "here are the numbers that Mr Williams gave you and they have contacted you", but I never phoned them back.

MR WILLIAMS: I gave you two numbers, one was the number of Lynn Coleridge and the other was 424-5165 or 1.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot dispute that, you did give me numbers.

MR WILLIAMS: I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Williams. Mr Kahanovitz, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Hardien.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KAHANOVITZ: I do.

Mr Hardien, maybe I just explain to you who my clients are. I'm representing the foundation that owns the Early Learning Centre, I'm also representing somebody who was injured in the bomb blast, do you understand?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright. Now you say you have problems remembering things, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you have problems remembering things that happened this year?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This year?

MR HARDIEN: I forget very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you have problems remembering things that happened last week? How far back can you remember?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot respond to you, I cannot tell you, all I can say is that I forget very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You wait to hear the question and then you decide whether it's something that you can't remember, is that what you're telling me?

MR HARDIEN: All I can say is that I forget things very easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you appear to be able to look at a statement that you handed in, sorry, a statement that you prepared fairly shortly after the event, many years ago you gave the police at a statement, correct? You've been referred to that statement on numerous occasions, the statement that you made in detention.

CHAIRPERSON: It was made approximately four months after the bomb went off.

MR HARDIEN: Is this statement?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the Secunda statement, yes, the same one.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But if I understand your evidence correctly, more than 10 years later you are able to look again at that statement and recognise that certain parts of it are false.

MR HARDIEN: I've never again studied these documents, this is the first time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were referred to it today, but you were able to remember that certain parts of it were false, correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Notwithstanding the problems that you have remembering things.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, if they refer to it and I can remember it, then I will say so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have attended most of these proceedings, isn't that correct?

MR HARDIEN: No, it was only that I phoned Lynn.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe you don't understand my question. When these hearings started they were in the centre of Cape Town, do you remember?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I was there once or twice.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were there, you listened to some of the evidence.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The last occasion when we were in this hall you came and you listened to the evidence, correct?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you've been here for most of the past two weeks.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you've heard a lot of the evidence of other witnesses on what happened at the Early Learning Centre, correct? You must have, you were sitting here.

MR HARDIEN: No, I wasn't here when Mr van Zyl testified and I also left while Mr Botha was testifying.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You specifically left the room so you wouldn't hear that evidence, is that what you're saying?

MR HARDIEN: No, not at all, I simply left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see. You heard some of the evidence, but not all, is that what you're saying?

MR HARDIEN: I didn't really hear anything of Mr Botha's evidence, because they were referring to the other matter that he was involved in. My own lawyer doesn't even know when I left. He simply just realised the following morning that I was here again.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You had a number of conversations with Mr Slang van Zyl in the course of these proceedings, I saw you with my own eyes, correct?

MR HARDIEN: We discussed other matters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Really?

MR HARDIEN: I'm still working for the man.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You still work for him?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I'm working for him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In what capacity do you work for him?

MR HARDIEN: He investigates him and I assist him. How am I supposed to earn a living? I work for him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, so does he pay you for the work that you do?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, who is going to work for free?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not saying I have a problem with this, Mr Hardien, I'm just asking you a simple question. I don't expect you to work for free, it's a simple question.

MR HARDIEN: Well obviously, I have to get money from somewhere, how will I continue with my life?

MR KAHANOVITZ: When did he first offer you employment?

MR HARDIEN: It was last year.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you remember round about what month? Was it late in the year?

MR HARDIEN: It must have been after Easter or whatever.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright. But you've been working for him throughout the duration of these proceedings, these Truth Commission proceedings. Since the beginning of this year you've been working for Mr van Zyl, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Since last year.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Since last year, alright. Do you get a monthly salary?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How much is your monthly salary?

MR HARDIEN: R1 500.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And do you get extra money for additional information that you supply?

MR HARDIEN: No, straight.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No bonuses?

MR HARDIEN: No. At the end of the year, Xmas time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I assume you and Mr van Zyl must have had some discussions about the nature of the evidence that you were going to give here.

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Never?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Isn't that very unnatural to not have that kind of discussion?

MR HARDIEN: No, we never discussed the matter.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You just talked about everything else under the sun, all those things that the two of you have in common besides this case?

MR HARDIEN: We never discussed this matter, if we discussed things here it was work.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now when you were hired by Mr van Zyl - I'm not talking about what you know now, I'm talking about when you were first offered a job, who did you think you were going to be working for?

CHAIRPERSON: You're back in the '80s now?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm going back to 1989.

Who did you think you were working for?

MR HARDIEN: I was told that they were working in politics, that they wanted to intimidate the enemy. I thought it was for the country.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you think you were working for the police?

MR HARDIEN: No, I thought it was for the country. They told me that they wanted to intimidate the enemy and I thought, well it must be government business this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Had you been in prison before Mr van Zyl offered you a job?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now what did Mr van Zyl tell you who you would be working for, how did he explain it to you?

MR HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me that this job had to be done so that the enemy could not enter and that I shouldn't worry because it came from people in the top structure.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Which structure?

MR HARDIEN: People in the top governmental structure. That's why I thought nothing would happen to me, because it wasn't for a private organisation as such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So I'm assuming you're also going to say then that you were told that if you ever got into trouble with the police, you didn't need to worry, you didn't need to worry if you got arrested, they would sort something out for you?

MR HARDIEN: He didn't say it in those words, he just said: "Don't worry, this comes from the big boss."

MR KAHANOVITZ: But were you, you personally, were you worried that you might get arrested and get into trouble?

MR HARDIEN: No, honestly not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

MR HARDIEN: Because I accepted I was doing this for the country, why should I then get into trouble if the government tells me to do this?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but now you plant this bomb and then you get arrested, then what? What was your understanding?

MR HARDIEN: Then I thought, what now? I didn't know him as Slang van Zyl yet.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well I'm trying to understand, what is he going to do, come get you out of jail? How is it going to work?

MR HARDIEN: To tell you the truth, I simply thought that Slang, Theunis de Wet at that stage, would get to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But surely Mr van Zyl told you you must avoid getting arrested, avoid the problem in the first place?

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall, he didn't put it that way.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So Mr van Zyl didn't mind if you got arrested.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say that he minded or he didn't mind.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I mean you could plant this bomb in such a way that it didn't matter if anybody saw you planting the bomb, that would be fine, because it didn't matter because Mr van Zyl would get you out of prison, is that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: I thought he was working for the government and I thought that I wouldn't go to jail, that he would get me out.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was it your understanding that the government was allowed to kill people, at that time, was that your understanding?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they could kill people and as long as you were doing it for the government, you didn't get into trouble?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, I understood that the enemies at that stage were not allowed to be prominent and if the government said so, then it was acceptable.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see Mr van Zyl said you had no idea that you were working for the government. Is he not telling the truth when he says that?

MR HARDIEN: Once again, I didn't know that I was working for - I didn't even know CCB, because CCB wasn't even mentioned, it wasn't even mentioned at that stage. I only found out when I was in John Vorster Square.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes that's why I was asking you what you knew before you got detained. Isn't it so that before you got detained, you had no idea that you were working for the government?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So all this evidence you've now been giving that you weren't worried about being arrested because the government would get you out of trouble, that can't be your evidence, because at the time that you planted the bomb you didn't know you were working for the government. You've just admitted that, correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understood that I didn't have to worry, Mr van Zyl said that the big bosses would be there and I thought well that must be the government, because who else would be the big boss of the country.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So does that explain why when you went to plant the bomb, you weren't worried about telling Mr Williams that there's a bomb in the building, because you weren't worried about being arrested? Can I just make sure, let me go one step back so that you understand my question. Your evidence has been that you went to warn Mr Williams that there's a bomb about to explode in the building, do I understand your evidence properly?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it must be obvious to you that Mr Williams, after the bomb went off, would give your name to the police and tell the police: "Mr Hardien came to tell me there's a bomb in this building." That must be obvious to you.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And it must also be obvious to you that after Mr Hardien gave that information to the police, you would be arrested in connection with the bomb blast.

MR HARDIEN: I didn't think that I would be arrested.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh come, come, Mr Hardien, you're not seriously going to suggest to the Committee that after Mr Williams tells the police that you told him about the bomb, they're not going to come and arrest you?

MR HARDIEN: At that stage I really didn't think that they would arrest me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're saying as long as the police heard it was Mr Hardien who planted the bomb, they wouldn't be worried because Mr Hardien can plant bombs wherever he wants to? Is that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not saying that, because I was under the impression that it came from the bigshots.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They will fix it up?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I would say so, fix it up.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now what was your understanding of the purpose of this explosion?

MR HARDIEN: To intimidate them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who? Who's "hulle"?

MR HARDIEN: The people that Mr van Zyl was working for.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm just trying to understand, when you talk about "hulle", who are you talking about? Are you talking about the ANC, are you talking about the Kewtown youth, are you talking about the soccer club? Who are you talking about?

MR HARDIEN: Oh, I understand now. I told Mr van Zyl and the others that the UDF and the Kewtown Youth Movement were involved in these cases of arson and such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand what you're saying. I want to know who the target of the bomb blast was, was it a person, was it an organisation or was it a building?

MR HARDIEN: It was the organisation that we wanted to intimidate.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Which organisation?

MR HARDIEN: The Kewtown Youth Movement. If Mr Williams could just assist me, was it a UDF movement?

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, Mr Williams isn't going to help you, all I want to know is what Mr van Zyl explained to you.

MR HARDIEN: The United Democratic Front, I think.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was it the United Democratic Front or the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I told Mr van Zyl that the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were aligned.

MR KAHANOVITZ: As far as you understood they were the same thing?

MR HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were they the same thing, as you understood it?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you're very clear in your own mind that the target was the Kewtown youth, one of the targets?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you explain why, and you're lawyer can check this, when you gave your statement to the police under Section 29, shortly after the bomb blast, nowhere in that statement do you make any reference to the Kewtown Youth Movement? The only organisation that you refer to is the UDF.

MR HARDIEN: I understand what you have asked.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would you care to explain to the Committee why your statement continuously refers to the United Democratic Front and nowhere refers to the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR HARDIEN: Because to me, the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were one and the same organisation. That is how it appeared to me. That is why I keep on using UDF.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, I'm quite interested in the fact that - look at, for example, page 150 at bundle B, I'll read you one or two sentences. You say that during your conversation with Mr van Zyl, you mentioned

"During our discussion I mentioned the following names to him as members of the UDF."

and then you mention names such as Peter Williams, Bruce Malgas and so on and so forth. Now Mr Slang van Zyl, who makes a statement at round about the same time as you did - you recall you were in detention at about the same time? You didn't know that, but anyway you can accept it from me you were. His statement continuously refers to the Kewtown Youth Movement, but yours continuously refers to the UDF. Can you explain why that happened?

MR HARDIEN: Once again, to me the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were one and the same organisation. To me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you said in your evidence-in-chief that it was up to you to decide where to put the bomb, is that correct? Mr van Zyl didn't tell you to put the bomb in the hall, it was a decision that you yourself made, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, because I said that those were the places where they held their meetings and we wanted to destroy their meeting places, so that they could not longer conduct meetings there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry, I didn't get the last sentence, who holds meetings there?

MR HARDIEN: The reason why I placed the bomb in the hall was because that was the place where they held their meetings and we didn't want them to be able to have their meetings any longer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl didn't tell you to put the bomb in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You could have put it into the boardroom if you wanted.

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Or you could have put it into the kindergarten?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you chose the hall, because, why?

MR HARDIEN: Because that's where they held their meetings and if the place was destroyed, they couldn't hold meetings any longer and they couldn't continue with their activities.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was your understanding that the hall needed to be destroyed, or that the people just had to be given a fright? What was your understanding?

MR HARDIEN: I don't understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you agree with me there's a difference between giving somebody a fright and destroying a hall?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I understand that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you agree with me, if you just want to give people a fright, you don't have to put the bomb in the room that they meet? Do you agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So why did you put the bomb in the room where they meet?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot respond to that, to me it was the place where they always held their meetings and so I would be able to intimidate them, if the bomb went off there they would never again have a meeting in the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wasn't your evidence that you would never have agreed to do this job if there was any chance that somebody might be injured or killed? Was that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: That is what I said from the beginning, no-one was to be injured, no-one was to be killed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, but as I understood your evidence that was a rule that you yourself laid down. You would never have agreed to do this job if somebody could be injured or killed, correct?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct, I said to Mr van Zyl: "No-one should be killed and no-one should be injured."

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you what Mr van Zyl said, I'm asking you what you said. You said you said that to Mr van Zyl, you would not do this job unless you yourself were sure that no-one would be injured or killed, correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now if you wanted to make sure that no-one was going to be injured or killed, wouldn't you agree with me there were many other more safe places to put the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: I chose the hall, I cannot give you any other story, I chose the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well why didn't you set the bomb to be placed at an outside wall to go off at midnight? Wouldn't you the have been sure that nobody could be injured or killed?

MR HARDIEN: Once again I will tell you, I placed it in the hall so that they would not conduct their meetings there anymore, that is why I chose the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, okay, so that explains the location. What about the time that the bomb was supposed to go off?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know when the bomb went off.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, but you were going to make sure that no-one was going to be injured or killed, so you would be very interested in the time that Mr van Zyl was going to explode the bomb.

MR HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me that we are going to ensure that all the people are out of the building, then the bomb will be detonated, and I believed them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but the natural question to then ask is, what time is this bomb going to be exploded, do you agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know what time it went off.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you that question, I'm asking you in the light of your evidence, that you were doing everything to make sure that no-one could be injured, you would have asked Mr van Zyl: "Mr van Zyl, when are we going to explode this bomb?"

MR HARDIEN: I did ask him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what did he say?

MR HARDIEN: He said when everybody has left the hall or left the building, we have to ensure that that is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Didn't it strike you as strange that the bomb wasn't going to be exploded late at night when you would be absolutely sure there was no-one around?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot answer you. They told me all the people must be out of the building, then they will press the thing, and I believed what they said. I cannot go and say anything else. I believed what they told me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is it your evidence that you did not tell Mr van Zyl what time the Kewtown youth would be holding their meeting? Is that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: It could be that I told him that the meeting will be from 7 to 8 o'clock, or whatever the time is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No please listen to my question. Did you tell Mr van Zyl what time people would be meeting in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: Yes I could have told him that, because he doesn't know the times of the meetings, so if it so, I could have said to him, yes the meeting will start at seven and it will probably finish at 8 or 9 o'clock.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you sure ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: Because he doesn't know the times when they have meetings there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you sure it's not your evidence that you only told him that the meeting would be held at night, but you didn't give him a precise time?

MR HARDIEN: Like I'm saying again, I cannot recall. If I said 9 o'clock, it is possible. I cannot recall if I said seven or eight o'clock, but I told him the meeting's going to begin, we have to make sure that everybody's out and we will ensure that everybody's out and he said to me: "Do not worry, when everybody is out the bomb will explode."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wasn't it your evidence earlier today when you were being asked questions by Ms Coleridge, that you did not give Mr van Zyl the times that the meeting would be held, you only told him it was at night? Was that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I did not say to him there's going to be a meeting in the day, I told him there's going to be a meeting in the evening.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you couldn't tell him what time the meeting was?

MR HARDIEN: As I've said before Sir, if I gave him a time I did. I cannot say to you that I said it or not. It is possible that I could have said to him: "Slang, look the meeting is at seven o'clock." I will not dispute that. I had to tell him what time the meeting was. He doesn't know of the meetings, he doesn't know when they start of when they finish.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz.

At that time did the Kewtown Youth Movement hold regular meetings?

MR HARDIEN: I think once a week. I cannot recall, but I do know they have meetings there.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the meetings usually start at more-or-less the same time?

MR HARDIEN: Mr Chairperson, I cannot exactly say it started every week at 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock or 5 o'clock, but if they wanted a time I would have given a time to Slang.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, if there was evidence from a witness that you gave Mr van Zyl the time that the meeting would start and the time that the meeting would end and that the timing of the bomb blast was planned around that information, is that evidence true?

MR HARDIEN: I'm not disputing it, I could have given him a time, I could have said to him: "Slang, the meeting starts at 7 o'clock, it will go up to this time." I do not know what time the bomb exploded. My concern was that there's nobody in the hall, everybody left. What they thought was their business, my main concern was that we agreed that nobody must be injured or be killed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I know you can remember your lines, but please answer my question. What was my question? Do you remember my question?

MR HARDIEN: If I gave the time to Mr van Zyl.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In part. I'm asking you if there is evidence that you gave the times to the CCB that the meeting would start and the meeting would end and that the planning as to when that bomb would go off was based on that information, is that evidence true? That's what I asked you. A simple yes or no would suffice.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if the bomb will explode at that time or not, it could be that I gave them a time as to when the meeting started.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you had to drive them to the airport.

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What time was their plane going to be?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I do not know when their flight was, I only had to take them to the airport and drop them off and I then left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you'll agree with me that - where were they going to fly to, Johannesburg?

MR HARDIEN: They did not tell me if they were going to go to Durban, Jo'burg or P.E., I just had to take them to the airport.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did they not mention to you that their flight was at a particular time?

MR HARDIEN: I'm sorry?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did they not mention to you that their flight was at a particular time?

MR HARDIEN: Not as far as I can recall. Not what I can recall. All that I know is that I took them to the airport and I went home afterwards.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you drove to the airport did you drive slowly, did you drive fast? Were you in a hurry to catch the plane?

MR HARDIEN: I drove a normal speed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Normal?

MR HARDIEN: I did not speed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you agreed to do this job for no payment at all, is that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: They did not say anything about money.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're the kind of person who agrees to go and place bombs for no payment? What was your reason for ..(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: I will not say that. During that time the UDF, the United Democratic Front and the Kewtown Youth Movement, this was now in the political time when everything was burned and I was against them or opposed them, I was part of the National Party all these years and this is now the opportunity to frighten them, I'm going to do this to frighten them. It was not about money.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So out of your hatred of people in the United Democratic Front, you would have planted the bomb for free, is that your evidence? That's how I understand your evidence.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz, if I could just ask a quick question.

When did you for the very first time, learn that you were to place a bomb in the hall?

MR HARDIEN: Really I cannot remember which month it was, if it was the day when Slang them phoned me to pick them up at the airport, I cannot remember if it was that day or at a previous opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't at the airport when you saw the bag with the bomb, it was before that?

MR HARDIEN: It was at the airport.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before that that you knew about the bomb, or was that the first time?

MR HARDIEN: That was the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: So before that you had no idea whatsoever about the bomb?

MR HARDIEN: Yes. I cannot remember if they mentioned it before, but I remember that day when they phoned me I received the bomb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It must have come as a very pleasant surprise to you when Mr van Zyl handed you this R18 000 afterwards. Was it a big surprise?

MR HARDIEN: The biggest surprise was that they told me: "Gakkie, here's R18 000 for you, the project was a success."

MR KAHANOVITZ: But I would have thought then you would have turned around and said: "But Mr van Zyl, why are you paying me money, I planted this bomb out of patriotism?"

MR HARDIEN: Just ask again please, I did not hear.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I would have thought you would have refused the money, on your version, because you didn't want payment, you were doing it out of patriotism, for the love of your country, for the love of the National Party.

MR HARDIEN: I understand, but here this person now brings me money, who's going to refuse? I'll never refuse.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You know Mr van Zyl explained to the Committee why he offered you work in the first place, did you hear that evidence?

MR HARDIEN: No, I do not know anything about what Mr van Zyl testified.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl said he was looking for a criminal who would commit crimes for money. What do you have to say about that?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What do you mean you don't know? Why do think this man comes - of all the people in the Western Cape that he could have hired, why you and Peaches?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I do not even know how this man came to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, that is not so, you know that your friend Peaches introduced you to Mr van Zyl.

MR HARDIEN: Afterwards I found out that Peaches connected me with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well don't you want to explain to the Committee why it is that you were offered that job?

MR HARDIEN: All that I know is that the reason is that I knew all the people, I knew the area, I had access to any place, they will not ask me any questions, everybody knows me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It had absolutely nothing to do with your willingness to commit crimes?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I see. So it must have come to as quite a shock when he asked you to go and plant a bomb, just out of the blue.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I will repeat it, it was not a surprise to me to go and plant a bomb because in my mind it's that we are going to scare the enemy, "UDF, and you will not have any more meetings in Kewtown."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now is it so that the original plan was that Mr Botha and Mr van Zyl were not actually going to come to the Early Learning Centre with you, you were going to go there alone and explode the bomb by yourself?

MR HARDIEN: No, never, it's not so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Never? Was that never the plan?

MR HARDIEN: No, it was arranged that I must go and pick them up at the airport - at the Bellville Holiday Inn.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If the evidence has been that the original plan was that you would explode the bomb and that Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha weren't going to be there, is that evidence untrue?

MR HARDIEN: In the first place, I do not even know how the bomb was supposed to detonate, so I could not go alone because I only had the bomb, there was nothing connected to it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but they could have just given you the calculator and told you to press the button.

MR HARDIEN: It was not explained to me like that, they wanted to ensure that nobody was injured. They told me: "Come and pick us up at the Bellville Holiday Inn."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you could have made sure that no-one got injured, from what I've heard so far.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I do not know anything of a bomb, I did not know how you detonate it until they arrived, so how can I go and detonate the bomb there? What was I supposed to do or kick?

MR KAHANOVITZ: If I also understand your evidence, nobody told you where in the hall to place the bomb.

MR HARDIEN: Exactly, I used my own discretion and I thought I'll put it in the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: One of the steps that you took to make sure that no-one was injured was to warn Mr Williams that a bomb was about to go off, correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well if you were going to do that, then it wasn't necessary to make sure that everybody had left the hall, you agree with me? All the other steps you're talking about become entirely irrelevant. You walk in, you warn them: "There's a bomb, you must leave now." You don't need to do anything else, you've done everything you need to do. You agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: No, I wanted to ensure that everybody was out.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No please listen to my question. If somebody walks in here now and warns us that there's a bomb, we must all leave, are we going to leave?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They don't need to come - are you suggesting that you have to come back, see who is here, tick their names off as they come out and make sure that the parking lot is empty afterwards?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You wouldn't need to do that.

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well why did you need to do that at the Early Learning Centre?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, we stood at the back and the cars had to be gone so that I can be sure that nobody comes out to the front and then I met Mr Williams in the front, whether he believed me now or not, but I told him. I cannot say anything else.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I take it though on your version, Mr Williams must have completely ignored what you told him.

MR HARDIEN: It's him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but is that your version? You came to tell him there was a bomb and he just didn't want to listen to you.

MR HARDIEN: No he said - I'm not going to use the curse word again, he just said: "You're mad."

MR KAHANOVITZ: So did you report this to Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: I told Mr van Zyl: "Everybody is leaving, Mr Williams and them are on their way out, the security is locking the gate."

MR KAHANOVITZ: No did you tell Mr van Zyl that you warned Mr Williams that there was a bomb but he didn't want to listen?

MR HARDIEN: I never told Mr van Zyl something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

MR HARDIEN: And if I did, I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you tell him or didn't you?

MR HARDIEN: I only what I told Mr Williams and if I did not say it to him, I did not. I cannot recall if I told him that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: For who, Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It would have been a very important thing to have told him, you agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, but I cannot recall if I told it or not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember if you told him?

MR HARDIEN: Yes

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if I had to tell you that Mr van Zyl says that you told it to him, that could be true?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say because I was not here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It could be true?

MR HARDIEN: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that by warning Mr Williams that there's a bomb, that you've planted a bomb in the hall, that you would have been exposing Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha to the danger of being caught, seeing that they were just sitting close to the hall outside in the car that you were using? That you had borrowed.

MR HARDIEN: Because I said something to Mr Williams? To tell you the truth Mr Chairperson, I did not even think of it, if I told him that. They did not see Mr Botha or Mr van Zyl.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, if I understood your evidence while you were being cross-examined by Mr Williams, these precautionary steps that you took to make sure that no-one was injured or killed, do I understand your evidence to be that if the bomb - you only had to make sure that there was no-one in he hall, because nobody outside of the hall could be injured or killed by the bomb? Is that your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: I did not think that anybody would be injured on the outside or will be killed on the outside. I did not think of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I ask you to look at Exhibit N, the photographs, could you look at photograph number 5, do you recognise where that is?

MR HARDIEN: Yes Sir, I've been to this place every day.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's the entrance hall, the foyer.

MR HARDIEN: It's the foyer, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay. Do you see what your bomb did to the foyer?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now are you seriously suggesting to the Committee that you didn't think that the bomb might harm somebody who was in the foyer?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, at that time I did not think that the bomb will injure people on the outside because there was no-one there on their way to the hall, there was no-one there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, you knew - where does the night watchman - where's his room?

MR HARDIEN: I do not know where his room is, all that I know is that he stays on the premises.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your evidence has also been that you spoke to Mr Williams in the foyer, remember your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: Not the foyer, Sir, the door before you get the foyer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh come, Mr Hardien, surely you'd have to admit that you were aware that anybody who was in the foyer could be hurt or killed by the force of the explosion.

MR LAX: The question was, surely you were aware that anybody who was in the foyer would be hurt or killed by the explosion.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now look at photograph number 28, what is that?

MR HARDIEN: A classroom.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's a kindergarten. Very small children play there, do you agree with me?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now can you see what happened to the windows in that kindergarten?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I take it you didn't care what impact this explosion would have on the children who used this kindergarten.

MR HARDIEN: Because I did not know what the impact of the bomb was going to be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you expect the Committee to believe you?

MR HARDIEN: If they do not want to believe me, they do not have to believe me. I did not know what the affect of the bomb was going to be. If they told me that we want to frighten them, nobody must be injured, and I believed that nobody would be injured, because I do not know anything about bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Then in your mind, did it cross your mind that the whole building might have been blown to smithereens, bricks and all, raised to the ground? If you didn't know what the affect of the bomb would be.

MR HARDIEN: No, I only thought it was something that would frighten them. I got a fright myself when I saw what the damages were. I never left the scene.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now we're going to call a witness who will say that the lights were on in the hall at the time the bomb exploded, are you in a position to dispute that? You can't remember.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you can't dispute that?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We're going to call a witness who will say that there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded, I assume you're not in a position to dispute that, you can't remember?

MR HARDIEN: All the cars were out, because we ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: How come you can remember?

MR HARDIEN: ... we sat there and waited until all the cars left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you are a hundred percent sure in your own mind that all the cars had left the parking lot?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you think of any reasons why somebody who is called to say that there were cars in the parking lot, might want to lie about that?

MR HARDIEN: I do not if she's going to tell the truth or not the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I'm asking you if you can think of any reason why anybody would want to tell lies about that. There's several statements, you will see from the police statements several people say there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded. I want to know if you can advance any motive as to why these people might want to lie about whether there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded.

MR HARDIEN: I don't know, I cannot give you an answer.

MR LAX: You might also just want to think about this, those statements were taken very soon after the bomb did explode, those people didn't know there was going to be this process years and years later. You understand?

MR HARDIEN: Yes. There were many people who made statements because I stood there.

MR LAX: The point is, why would they have lied then to say there were cars in the parking lot, if there weren't?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you ever tell anyone that meetings were held in this hall where acts of sabotage were planned? Do you understand what sabotage is?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is sabotage?

MR HARDIEN: Like the things we did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, yes. Now letting off bombs for instance, did you ever tell anybody that you had information that meetings were held in the Early Learning Centre, where plans were made to explode bombs?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I told anyone.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's the kind of thing you would have remembered if you'd said it.

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say yes or no, I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you agree with me - as you sit here today, you have no such information?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have no such information.

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

SIBANYONI: Excuse me.

You said as the statements were taken you stood there, was it the same night the bomb ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: The same night, yes.

SIBANYONI: Did you drop ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: I went to go and drop Mr van Zyl them off at the airport and I returned to the place. The Bomb Squad was there, there were ambulances, I stood there.

MR SIBANYONI: Now how soon did you return to the scene?

MR HARDIEN: It took me about, not more than half an hour, let us say half an hour, because I took the freeway.

MR SIBANYONI: Now notwithstanding the fact that you said to Williams you have planted a bomb there, you were brave to come and stand there as the statements were taken?

MR HARDIEN: I stood there, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were not afraid?

MR HARDIEN: No, I stood there. The next day I walked to my work like a normal person would.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you see Mr Williams after the bomb had exploded?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I saw Mr Williams again, it is possible that we saw each other again, but I cannot remember if I did. I cannot even remember how many people were there, who was there.

MR SIBANYONI: But were there members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I'm saying now again, I do not know who was there or not, a lot of people were there, all the people living in that area were there. The next morning I did not come to look. That same evening when I dropped Mr van Zyl them off at the airport, I went back to the scene, I stood there as a normal person would.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR LAX: Sorry, while you were there, did you see people injured or not?

MR HARDIEN: I'm sorry?

MR KAHANOVITZ: While you were there on the scene, did you see if people were injured or not? Was there ambulances there helping people?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, there were just lights, so I cannot say precisely whether they carried people out of there. Everyone was just inquisitive about the bomb that went off. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR LAX: So you don't know if people were injured or not?

MR HARDIEN: Correct, I cannot say whether people got injured or not. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MS COLERIDGE: Excuse me Chairperson, I've just had a request if this witness could just stand down for a few minutes, then we'll proceed again.

CHAIRPERSON: You want a short adjournment. Yes, we'll take a short adjournment.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KAHANOVITZ: (Cont)

Thank you.

Mr Hardien, as someone who doesn't read and write, I assume you would not have been in a position to collect documents which emanated from the Kewtown Youth Movement, pamphlets, posters, whatever. You wouldn't be able to pick it up and identify documents as belonging to the Kewtown Youth Movement, 'cause you can't read them?

MR HARDIEN: I could see Kewtown Youth Movement or Football Club, those are the everyday things that one would read.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you saw the word Kewtown written, you'd be able to recognise that?

MR HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But if the document was about politics, would you know?

MR HARDIEN: No, I would have asked somebody.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'd have to ask someone. Did you ever collect any documents of the Kewtown Youth Movement and hand them on to Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You did. How were you able to know that the documents came from the Kewtown Youth Movement?

MR HARDIEN: I obtained from, I cannot remember from who, but I know that it was someone who was with them in meetings all the time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So they freely gave these pamphlets to you, it wasn't something you had to go and steal?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you know what was in these documents?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now were you asked by Mr van Zyl to burn a printing press?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember that he asked me something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember him asking me something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Might it help if I refreshed your memory? You see, does the name Esquire Press ring a bell?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, you told the Truth Commission Investigators that you had committed arson at the premises of the Esquire Press. Can I read you your evidence that you gave, would it help you?

MR HARDIEN: Perhaps it will.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle B, page 182.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I will read to you the questions which were put to you and the responses that you provided. They asked you if there were any other projects that you were involved in, the question was

"With the exception of Early Learning Centre, what other projects were there?"

and your response was:

"There as a factory in Heinz Road, it was a printing press."

and then the man asked:

"Esquire Press?"

and your answer was:

"I think that was the name. I simply burnt the place down."

Do you recall that answer?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember what I said to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your comment on what was read out to you by Mr Kahanovitz?

MR HARDIEN: Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see you can listen to the actual tape if you want to, but this is a transcript of what's on the tape. What do you say to that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember whether I said anything to him about Esquire or whatever.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me make this easy for you, did you set fire to any printing press? Forget about the name.

MR HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you forget if you had burnt down a printing press?

MR HARDIEN: If I burnt something down I would have remembered doing so, because it would have been something that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: So the question was, did you burn down a printing press, a printing business?

MR HARDIEN: No, I didn't burn down a place, not that I am aware of.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why would you make up an admission like that and tell it to the Truth Commission? Could you explain to us what possible motive anybody would have to falsely admit to burning down a printing press?

MR HARDIEN: I can tell you why I said it if it appears there, it is because I wanted to get rid of them, I would have told them anything just to get away from them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz.

I think what Mr Kahanovitz is getting at is, if you were wanting to just say anything, why then say something that's going to implicate you in a crime? These people were merely Investigators of the TRC, they weren't policemen investigating a crime or laying a charge of anything, why tell them that you committed a crime when you didn't?

MR HARDIEN: Chairperson, they came to me and they asked me whether I burnt the place down and I said: "Yes, man, I did it." I told them anything just to get rid of them. I'm not arguing, if it is in the document, then I said it. I'm not arguing.

MR LAX: Well you see they didn't come to you and say: "Did you burn the place down", if you look at the questions here they said to you: "What other projects were you involved in" and you said you burnt the place down. They didn't say to you: "Did you burn the place down?" You see the difference? And it goes further than that because the more you tell them about this kind of thing, the more questions they're going to ask of you. Surely the more you admit, the more they're going to ask you.

MR HARDIEN: Perhaps I put it incorrectly. I myself have never burnt a place down, I'm not disputing, I said to them: "Yes, I burnt the place down", just to get rid of them, because after so many years I heard that they were Investigators from the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: But they had no authority over you, they weren't the police, why didn't you just say: "Well that's it, I'm going, goodbye. Thanks a lot, I'm out of here"? You could have done that, they can't stop you.

MR HARDIEN: Chairperson, they came to me with all sorts of promises: "Don't worry, we'll help you, just tell us what happened" and I just wanted to get rid of them. I told them whatever was on my mind. I couldn't trust them either.

MR LAX: But if they were worrying you, why didn't you go and get a lawyer and tell these people to leave you alone?

MR HARDIEN: At a certain point they stayed away and I thought good shot, you believed my story, but then they arrived back one day, after I had phoned Ms Coleridge, and he said that he wasn't working with the TRC anymore and that he was working for the papers, and I wanted to know: "But what's going on now?"

MR LAX: But that was this year, we're talking about what happened in 1997, three years ago.

MR HARDIEN: I understand. I told them whatever, because at that stage I didn't want to hear anything about the bomb, I did not want to have anything to do with it. I didn't want to talk about it. Last Sunday for the first time I spoke of these things with my soccer club. For the very first time I said to them: "I've kept this from you for 11 years, you always hear that I'm going to the TRC, you hear this and that and see this and that on TV, but I'm going to tell you this before you go and play that final."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, did I understand your evidence correctly to be that what the TRC Investigator said to you was that if you told the truth, they would see that you were properly looked after?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if they said that to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But isn't that what you were saying just now?

MR HARDIEN: I said that they promised all sorts of things to me, that they would help me ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but what are you suggesting, are you suggesting that they said if you came and told them a pack of lies then they would help you?

MR HARDIEN: No, they didn't say that if I told them a pack of lies that they would help me, they just wanted to know what I knew.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes in other words, tell them the truth and they will help you, that's what you're saying?

MR HARDIEN: They didn't use the word "truth".

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but that's what you understood.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Correct. Because the strange thing about this printing press - let me read to you what Mr van Zyl had to say about a project that bears a remarkable similarity to the one that you've referred to. He gave a statement to the Harms Commission - you remember the Harms Commission?

MR HARDIEN: I was never at the Harms Commission.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you heard of it.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you. He said the following

"A project in which I was also involved in the Cape, had to do with a printers press. I cannot recall the name of the press, but I received information early in June 1989 that the printers were doing printing work for the ANC, UDF, Cosatu and other restricted organisations."

Does that ring a bell?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall if he said things like that to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't you aware that there was a printing press that was doing underground printing work, that had to be burnt? Doesn't this ring a bell?

MR HARDIEN: I don't even know where the place is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

MR HARDIEN: I don't even know where the place is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've never heard of Heinz Road?

MR HARDIEN: I know where Heinz Road is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you see, when the TRC Investigators were asking you these questions you supplied the information, you supplied the name of - you said there's a factory in Heinz Road, correct? You know there's a factory in Heinz Road. You told them that, they didn't know that, you told them that. Are you with me?

MR HARDIEN: I won't dispute, I could have said so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright. What factory is in Heinz Road, is there a printing press in Heinz Road?

MR HARDIEN: There are many of factories.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is there a printing press in Heinz Road?

MR HARDIEN: It could be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they said Esquire Press and you said: "I think that is the name."

MR HARDIEN: It could be that I was that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me carry on. Mr van Zyl goes on to say

"The information was conveyed to the CCB and a project was identified for the place to be burnt down."

Now you don't remember getting any orders to burn down this printing press?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall that I had to go and burn down a printing press.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see the strange thing about this printing press is that Mr van Zyl said, and I'm going to tell you later how you changed his version. He said at the time

"I also gave Isgak an order to execute the project. Later he reported to me that the place had been burnt down and he was rewarded with R2 000."

Does that ring a bell? Is that true?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember whether he said it to me or whether I did it, I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you don't know if Mr van Zyl is telling the truth or lies?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say whether he's lying or telling the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He might be telling the truth?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And he might be lying?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember.

MR HARDIEN: That's it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Even though you admit that it's the kind of thing that one would remember if you'd burnt down a printing press.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, if you burn down a place you would have remembered that you did so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright. But you can't remember if you burnt it down.

MR HARDIEN: I can't, because I didn't go and burn down a place.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh I see, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get money for burning down a place?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I received money for the place that I burnt or what.

MR LAX: Well how many times did you get R2 000 in cash from Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot even tell you if I received R2 000 or R3 000. I know that I received money to make telephone calls, I received money to go to Namibia, for my accommodation, spending money, my journey back to Cape Town, but I cannot remember how much money they gave me, I just know that there was R18 000 that I received, because I counted it and it was in a large brown envelope. But I don't know about R2 000 because I didn't count it, or whatever the amount was.

MR LAX: If you had pulled a scam on him for R2 000, you would remember that.

MR HARDIEN: I don't understand.

MR LAX: If you had conned him out of R2 000, you would remember that, surely. Do you understand?

CHAIRPERSON: If you defrauded him.

MR HARDIEN: No, for reason would I con him, for R2 000?

MR LAX: On his version you did con him, 'cause he paid you for something you didn't do.

MR HARDIEN: It is possible, but not for burning down a printing press. Who would burn down a building for R2 000?

MR LAX: But I thought you would do it for the love of your country?

MR HARDIEN: But that's why I'm saying, how could I accept R2 000 for a place that I burnt down? How could I con him for R2 000 for burning down a place? It's not my style to con people.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, please calm down, please. Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It seems also that Mr van Zyl was stupid enough to want to send you all the way to Namibia, to pay for you to stay there for several days, pay for your flight tickets, just so that you could go there to write down number plates. That's your evidence.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, he sent me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you think anyone's going to believe you? That they would spend all that money to send you to Namibia, who has difficulty reading and writing, to go and write down number plates in a city that he doesn't know?

MR HARDIEN: I've already said that I knew people there, I met people, I made friends so that they could identify places to me, so I could see the streets and so forth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what were going to do after you'd found out these streets and you'd learnt your way around?

MR HARDIEN: Then I gave him the information and I went back home.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Information about what?

MR HARDIEN: Regarding the registrations of the vehicles and whether they arrived there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did this make sense to you at the time, that they send you all the way to Namibia to write down the registration plates of motor cars. You.

MR HARDIEN: Because he asked me whether I had gone on holiday out of the Cape and I said no, and he said well there you go.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now didn't you tell the TRC Investigators that you got paid R18 000 before the Early Learning Centre explosion and R18 000 after the Early Learning Centre explosion?

MR HARDIEN: I have never said anything about receiving R18 000 twice.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well let me show you that you told them that.

MS COLERIDGE: Page 177 and 178.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, I will read to you what you said. Once again Mr Zenzile asked you a question, Mr Zenzile asked you

"When did you receive your money, because you received R18 000 for the job, but according to the record shortly afterwards you received money again?"

and your response:

"Yes, it was the next day. Then I flew up to Johannesburg"

and then he asks you:

"Did you discuss it again?"

"No, I received my money and I returned"

then he says:

"How much did he give you?"

and your response:

"Again R18 000"

and then the question is:

"So in total for the ELC, you received R36 000?"

Now what do you say of that?

MR HARDIEN: Once again, I told these people anything so that I could get rid of them. In all my statements. I never received R36 000, I only received R18 000 once.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, you know when I'm reading this now, it looks like maybe Mr Zenzile made mistake, it's ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I think you've got to start reading the...

CHAIRPERSON: ... that you've read out, it seems that he got paid, he went to Jo'burg and got paid, or does it come to light further down? Because it says ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry Judge, you've got to start reading in fact at page 173, to get the context. At page 173 he says, at the top, he went to Namibia, approximately two weeks after he came back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then he got money in the Cape Sun, R18 000, and then another R18 000 in Johannesburg.

MR KAHANOVITZ: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Centre, and then he says he got another R18 000 afterwards. So that put it...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you've got to read it with page 173, I see that now, thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see Mr Hardien, once again, I could understand if you were telling us that you told lies to minimise your role, but what you're actually telling us is that you told lies to maximise your role and the function that you played for the CCB. You were more important, you did bigger jobs, you did more jobs, you got more money than people thought before. Isn't that strange information to give to the TRC?

MR HARDIEN: I will tell you once again, I said all these things because I wanted to get rid of them. I just said everything and they believed me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, what do you think happens when you admit to crimes, does this make people go away? Haven't you been questioned many times in your life by the police, ask you if you know anything about a crime?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They leave me alone.

MR HARDIEN: If I'd done anything they would have questioned me, of course.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see you give statements to the newspaper claiming you're "die ysterhand van Kewtown". Do you remember that interview you gave?

MR HARDIEN: Correct, because they said I was a gang leader.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, and you tried to create the impression that you are indeed a gang leader. That you're the "ysterhand van Kewtown".

MR HARDIEN: No, I'm not a gang leader.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do the police think you're a gang leader?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now did you and Peaches ever discuss the work that Peaches was doing for your mutual employer, Mr van Zyl?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot say precisely, but I think it was after the bomb that we spoke.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What jobs have you done for Mr van Zyl in the last year?

MR HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl is a private investigator, he's up there in Johannesburg but he has a lot of work in Cape Town, for which I have to obtain information for him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: For example? Tell us an example of two or three jobs you've done for him.

MR RHEEDE: Chairperson, I'm going to object, I don't know if this is relevant to the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need to know names or involve private people who have been investigated, I don't think that would be in order, but if you could describe the sort of work that you've done, in general terms.

MR RHEEDE: Chairperson, may I just consult?

MR BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) consultations with a person under oath during cross-examination are unusual to say the least, I know that they take place in the United States, judging by some of the television programmes, but they are quite foreign to our procedure, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rheede indicated that he was there to assist in case there were questions that might implicate him in crimes, etcetera.

But all you've got to do here, Mr Hardien, all you're being asked is, what sort of work are you doing? How often are you working? Do you earn your R1 500 a month salary?

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I earn my money.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you work on a daily basis or is it sometimes once a month, sometimes no times a month?

MR HARDIEN: Sometimes once a week, sometimes two jobs in a month, it all depends on how the work comes my way.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just give us one example. I don't want to know who the people are, I don't want to know who the client is, just give me an example of a single job that you've done for Mr van Zyl.

MR HARDIEN: Matters that he is investigating pertaining to people in the Cape. He'll phone me up and say: "Gakkie, go and check if such and such a person lives there", I'll go in and make enquiries and then I'll call him back and say: "Yes, the man lives there", and he'll follow it up.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would you get a photograph of this person? Would you get a photograph?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr van Zyl doesn't know that Cape in the way that I do, so it's difficult for him to come and look for someone in the Cape here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you told us he tells you to go and find out if somebody's living at a particular place.

MR HARDIEN: If he tells me: "Find out if Mr Williams (even though I might not know a Mr Williams, I'm just using the name for the example), Mr Williams who lives at 20 Klapperbos Street, this is his telephone number." Perhaps I would phone first and ask to speak to Mr Williams and if they say no, he's coming home this evening, then I'll ask what time and then they'll say 7 o'clock for example, then I'll go at 7 o'clock and determine if the information is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you don't even know what he looks like.

MR HARDIEN: He just tells me: "Gakkie, go and find out, just confirm if that is the correct address." Instead of me running around with an album full of photos.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It seems also it's the kind of job that gives you a lot of time to sit at the Truth Commission. Does your boss give you time off to come and sit here every day?

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, that's an unfair question, Mr Kahanovitz knows that Mr Hardien has been subpoenaed by the Commission, and I don't know if the Truth Commission ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we can - 'cause there's been many people sitting here Mr Kahanovitz, who I'm sure are employed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, what we're going to argue at the end of the case, and you can comment, is that Mr van Zyl has clearly offered you work and a salary in order to buy your loyalty.

MR HARDIEN: It's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why didn't he offer you work many years ago? He's been running this detective agency for quite a while, why does he suddenly need your services now? Why have you become so important to his Western Cape operations?

MR HARDIEN: Because he's got work here in the Cape. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh I see. Now I want to read to you certain portions of a statement that Oesman Alexander made on the 30th of October 1990, this is part of the police docket into the blast at the Early Learning Centre. The typed version of this statement appears in bundle D, pages 8 to 10. In this statement he tells the police what happened that evening. In the first place he says that the bomb went off at approximately 20H35, are you in a position to dispute that?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot tell you when it was, I cannot say it's right or wrong, I do not know what the time was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The answer is yes. He says states that

"The meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement was adjourned early because there were not a lot of people who came for the meeting. If more members did arrive, the meeting would have taken longer and the bomb would have exploded in their midst."

You comment on that?

MR HARDIEN: As I've stated before Sir, I do not know what time that meeting started and what time it finished. I just ensured that there was no-one in the hall, and there's nothing else that I can say. Whatever Mr Oesman stated there, I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He continues to say the following

"During the explosion there were a lot of vehicles in the road and also in the parking lot of the Early Learning Centre. My vehicle is an Isuzu bakkie, it was parked in front of the building in the street."

Now you've just said anything he says you're not in a position to dispute, is that correct?

MR HARDIEN: What I said is Sir, what Oesman's stating there I do not know of, because I was not there when he said these things. I do not know what time the meeting started, I did not have the time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Alexander said this in his statement and he's going to come and give evidence here, that at the time the bomb exploded there were cars in the back parking lot, the parking lot that you say was empty at the time the bomb exploded.

MR HARDIEN: There were no cars when the bomb exploded.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you give any reason why Mr Alexander would want to make up a version that there were cars in the parking lot at the time the bomb exploded?

MR HARDIEN: I cannot tell you why he's saying that, I know there were no cars. Even if you keep on asking me, I cannot say why he's saying that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you came back from the airport to the scene of the crime, were there cars in the parking lot?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I did not look at cars, there were too many people, there were no cars where the cars pulled out.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You didn't go and look at the back parking lot?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, all the people were standing in front where the hole in the wall was, everybody was there and I stood there.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question was very simple, Mr Kahanovitz asked you whether you went and looked to see whether there were cars in the parking lot.

MR HARDIEN: Was this now when I returned from the airport?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: I did not drive around that way, I took Vanguard.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you walk that way when you were there, when you were milling around?

MR HARDIEN: No, Mr Chairperson, if I took Jan Smuts Drive I would have seen it, but I took Vanguard and I parked on the other side of the block and I walked across.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I thought your earlier evidence was that you actually went and you saw what the force of the explosion had been.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I drove from the airport, I could not get through with my car, the place was closed, I ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you if you drove there, you could have walked there. Your earlier evidence was that you went and you saw the force of the explosion and you were surprised by the force of the explosion. Remember your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: That's correct, I walked across from my house to the scene where it happened, after I dropped Mr van Zyl them off at the airport, when I returned.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore you would have been in a position to see if there were cars in the parking lot, you were standing there.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, you cannot see from the front if there were cars at the back.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh you now claim you were at the front only, you didn't go round the back?

MR HARDIEN: I never said I went to the back, I'm talking when I returned from the airport after I'd dropped Slang them off. I went to where all the other people were standing and that's where the wall was damaged. I did not go and look at the back of the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Mr Alexander also says the following

"I know Gakkie Hardien, he was aware of the fact that I used an Isuzu. If he, before or during the explosion, was close to the building he would have realised that I was inside the building."

MR HARDIEN: I do not even know that he had an Isuzu, I knew he drove a Valiant. I do not know anything about an Isuzu bakkie, because the Valiant was his father's car.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Tell me, on your version you checked only the back parking lot, you didn't check to see if there were any cars parked next to the front entrance? That's been your evidence?

MR HARDIEN: Where? There's not a place where cars can park next to the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They can pull up onto the side of the road and park on the pavement.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, a car can park on the pavement, but I did not see any cars parked on the pavement.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you didn't check to see if there were any before you exploded the bomb. Mr van Zyl says so. Do you agree with him?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, let us leave us, let us just talk about myself. When all the cars left the parking lot I told him: "There the meeting's over, everybody has left."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, even on your own version up to now, not once have you ever mentioned that you went to see if there were any cars parked at the front entrance of the building, correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, I never said that I went to go and look for cars in the front of the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Exactly. So even on your own version, even if the back entrance was empty, on your version there could have been cars parked at the front entrance, correct? You wouldn't have known.

MR HARDIEN: No, I've never disputed that, that there were cars parked in front. They never asked me if there were cars parked in front.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if there's been a car parked at the front entrance ...(intervention)

MR HARDIEN: Then I would have seen it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How could you have seen it from the back, can you see through walls?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, the time when I went to Mr Williams or met Mr Williams, the bakkie or the cars, whatever it was, I would have seen there was a bakkie standing there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, you might not necessarily have seen one because it was night and if a car was parked on the pavement, why do you say you would have seen it? And as far as I can recall, at a corner there's a, Springbok Road is at a corner, it's not just a question of looking out the door and having a panoramic view of the whole of Springbok Street.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I'm talking about the fact that the car could have been standing on the sidewalk or pavement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but it depends where the car was, whether it's on the left-hand side or the right-hand side. Did you go and look in the street?

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I did not go into the street, I went to go and look when I saw Mr Pietie. If there were cars, there were cars, I'm not going to dispute that there were not cars or that there were cars.

MR LAX: You see that's why earlier I asked you which way did you walk round the building, in anticipation of this kind of question.

MR HARDIEN: It's when I went to go and see Mr Williams?

MR LAX: You walked from the back of the building round to the front, through the front entrance, that's why I asked you which way did you walk, because in my own mind I was thinking well, depending on which way you walked, you'd either see if there were cars there or not.

MR HARDIEN: If I come from either side I can see if there were cars or not. Through Joseph's yard past Block 2, I would have seen them.

MR LAX: Yes. If your attention was focused on that.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, then I would have.

MR LAX: But your attention at that stage was on whether there were people in the hall. You were going to check the hall.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You weren't even going to check the building, you were only going to check the hall, that's been your evidence so far.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Alexander also states the following

"A few weeks after the explosion, myself, Glen Joseph and Bruce Malgas met Gakkie Hardien at a party. He told me that he missed us, but that we had to watch his next move. We understood that he referred to the bomb explosion."

Do you understand what he's saying?

MR HARDIEN: I never said that to him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I want to put it to you quite clearly that he says that you in effect admitted to him after the explosion that you were aware that the bomb was intended to kill them, but that you had missed and that they should therefore watch out for your next move.

MR HARDIEN: I never said that to him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I also want to put it to you that there's one thing that you and Mr Williams most definitely agree on, that you came into the hall, or the door next to the hall, whichever, you came into the building and that you were seen by Mr Williams shortly before the blast occurred, correct?

MR HARDIEN: Before the ...(intervention)?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can that, he's said it, that's what the evidence is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You agree with me that's been the evidence?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right. And therefore Mr Williams would be able to tell the police that you had been there on the night of the explosion, correct?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And some other people in the Kewtown Youth had also seen you that night in the building, correct?

MR HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay, just Mr Williams. Okay, let's leave it at Mr Williams. I want to put it to you that the only reason that you weren't worried about the fact that Mr Williams had seen you was because on your understanding, Mr Williams was going to be dead after the bomb had exploded and therefore you didn't need to worry about him giving evidence against you.

MR HARDIEN: Is that what you are saying? I'm not saying that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm also going to put it to you that the reason why your evidence is so full of inconsistencies and lies is because you refuse to tell the truth about what your true intentions were on that night and you refuse to reveal that you were paid the sum of R18 000 by the CCB, to plant a bomb that was intended to kill the members of the Kewtown youth. Your comment?

MR HARDIEN: You are saying it, not I.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz. Mr Hockey, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR HOCKEY: No, thank you Mr Chairman, my questions were asked.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coleridge, do you have any re-examination?

MS COLERIDGE: No, I don't Chairperson. I just want to place a few facts on record, Chairperson, from the side of the Commission, that at no stage did any one of our Investigative Unit, Mr Zenzile Khoisan or Mr Petersen, make any promises to Mr Isgak Hardien, and if need be we could lead evidence to that effect.

And then secondly, Chairperson, just in relation to the legal representation, it is correct that Mr Williams did contact me in relation to legal representation, because that was the gist, knowing that we were going to subpoena Mr Isgak Hardien. We then appointed Adv Mark Sher, who then withdrew as counsel of record, Chairperson. We thereafter approached De Klerk and Van Gend and then Mr Bennie Rheede was appointed. I just want to place that on record.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Coleridge. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: No, Mr Chairperson, I don't have a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, just a few small ones.

You parked the vehicle at the back on the corner.

MR HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Which direction was it facing in?

MR HARDIEN: Facing the building.

MR LAX: So you could look through the front windscreen at the building?

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You see, Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha said the opposite, they said it was pointing in the other direction.

MR HARDIEN: Towards the shop?

MR LAX: Exactly, exactly. Any comment on that?

MR HARDIEN: No, I drove and we parked so that we could see what was going on.

MR LAX: Now they also both say that the vehicle was moving around the front of the building at the time the bomb went off, not stationary at the back, as you've said.

MR HARDIEN: We drove round the block and we went to go and park at the back. This is what I can recall.

MR LAX: Their is evidence is consistent, when the bomb exploded they were driving round the front of the building.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, I don't think that's correct, because we had the inspection in loco and Chairperson, you asked Mr van Zyl where the car was parked and if you remember, Mr Lax when I questioned I said well, 10 metres, Mr Lax joked and said well, it's a long car, where they said the car went back a bit, then it exploded. That's how I recall the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say I'll have to refer to my notes, there's been so much evidence that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: If I'm mistaken, obviously I apologise. The record will speak for itself, but my understanding of their evidence was that the vehicle was moving at the time that the bomb exploded. You say it was stationary?

MR HARDIEN: This is how I can remember it, we were stationary.

MR LAX: Now just to clarify this, you said that you didn't know that Mr van Zyl was detained with you, or at the same time as you were detained.

MR HARDIEN: What I said is that it was not at the same time, but I knew that he was also detained. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's talking about when you were arrested and detained in terms of Section 29, that's what he's talking about, did you know that Mr van Zyl was also detained?

MR HARDIEN: Under Section 29?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HARDIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that when you were yourself in detention, or did you learn about that later?

MR HARDIEN: At a later stage I heard about it. Peaches shouted from the other side that he was ...

MR LAX: You see in your Section 29 statement on page 159, and that was made on the 21st of February 1990, the last paragraph says the following

"Theunissen de Wet is currently detained at the SAP, Secunda. I saw him for the first time last week in Secunda, in an office."

And then it goes on to talk about something else and then it says:

"I immediately recognised him as the person who I knew as Theunissen de Wet."

MR HARDIEN: Yes, I recognised him.

MR LAX: The point is, your statements says he saw him and you identified him as De Wet, while you were in detention a week before you made this statement, which was literally a week after you'd been, or about two weeks after you'd been detained.

MR HARDIEN: That is correct, the police brought him to me. I do not know when he was picked up.

MR LAX: But then you must have known he was detained under the same terms as you and you couldn't have found that out afterwards, you must have found it out at the same time. You understand?

MR HARDIEN: I understand.

MR LAX: You've just told us that you only found it out after your release, that isn't correct.

MR HARDIEN: Then I misunderstood you, because they brought him to me to ask me if this is Theunissen de Wet. And I do not even know when he was released.

MR LAX: Now you said something that I was interested in earlier, about the caretaker locking the gate at the time you were going back to the car. You in fact told Van Zyl the caretaker's locking the gate, they must all be gone. Did you actually see the caretaker locking the gate?

MR HARDIEN: When I finished with Mr Williams, the caretaker came out. I do not know if he was standing round the corner, but he was the one who locks the gates. I saw him. So I just thought that everybody's now leaving.

MR LAX: Well which gates was he locking?

MR HARDIEN: The front gates.

MR LAX: The front gate? Well is that at all even remotely probable, given the fact that we now know that there were people inside the building and that they were injured and that they were there when the bomb exploded? Why would he have locked the gate knowing there were people in the building?

MR HARDIEN: Well for me, or I thought that when he's locking the gate there is nobody left in the building.

MR LAX: And then the last aspect, this vehicle that you drove in was someone else's vehicle that you borrowed, we gathered that at the beginning of your evidence, is that right?

MR HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: But it was a vehicle known in the community.

MR HARDIEN: Yes, everybody knew the car.

MR LAX: And all the people who came out of the building, even on your own version, would have recognised that car as being there.

MR HARDIEN: Sir, I said I left my car at home and I walked across. When I went to the scene.

MR LAX: No, you're misunderstanding me. At the time that you and Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha were in the car waiting for the place to empty out, all the people who were leaving the building, on your version, must have seen that car there and a few of them would have known that car.

MR HARDIEN: Yes but there's not only one blue Datsun, there are a lot of Datsuns.

MR LAX: Well you didn't change the number plates.

MR HARDIEN: Nothing was changed. If you walk past there you're not going to say oh, it's a blue Stanza, you're not going to worry about the registration numbers.

MR LAX: Yes. Weren't you running the risk of further identification?

MR HARDIEN: It never crossed my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Members of the Panel?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARTINI: Chairperson, I just have one question arising out of what Mr Kahanovitz' cross-examination, in particular relating to the evidence of Mr Oesman.

Mr Hardien, after the bombing of the Early Learning Centre, were you ever called in by the Athlone Police Station or a police officer to question you on the issue of this bombing?

MR HARDIEN: Never.

MR MARTINI: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Hardien, that concludes your evidence, thank you. You may stand down.

MR HARDIEN: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your assistance, Mr Rheede.

MR RHEEDE: It's a pleasure Mr Chairperson, are we excused totally from the proceedings?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, Mr Rheede, thank you.

MR WESSELS: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I just place on record in regard to the cross-examination of Mr Barnard, that having regard to time constraints and the magnitude of the research that will have to go into pursuing the line of cross-examination that I had in mind, and comparing that with the relevance of the evidence for the purposes of these proceedings, I've decided not to pursue that line and there won't be any further questions to Mr Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wessels. I know it's very difficult, Mr Kahanovitz, but the witnesses tomorrow, should we start early ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we have a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: There's been an appeal made to me that if we are prepared to sit late, we might complete him. I'm completely in the Committee's and my learned friends' hands. I will take approximately half an hour to lead him. I don't know what cross-examination there is going to be, but I don't want the situation of our sitting late and having to come back tomorrow anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it might ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) adjournment until tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because if we do start now there's also the question of people who work here who've got to get home, etcetera, and we haven't given any forewarning of it, it could be extremely inconvenient for them. Should we start at half-past nine, is there any need to start earlier?

MR BIZOS: No, half-past nine ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we'll adjourn until tomorrow at half-past nine in the morning. And then also if I could just mention to the legal representatives, I think Ms Coleridge has mentioned to me that we're trying to get dates for argument in this matter and what is contemplated is that we have written Heads, but follow that up with about two days in which we can argue in which perhaps Members of the Panel can ask any questions they wish of anybody and also in which legal representatives might wish to stress certain points. So I'd appreciate if by tomorrow there can be some arrangement made as to that, how long you need for preparation of the Heads, in other words, a month or so, whatever, and then a range of particular dates.

MR BIZOS: I suggest with respect, that we follow the procedure that we have done in other cases, that the applicants applying for amnesty serve their ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I omitted, I should have mentioned that, that ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: ...(inaudible) in order to respond to that and ...(no microphone).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Bizos, I should have mentioned that. But before we start tomorrow, if it can be decided upon, the timeframes, when the applicants should submit their Heads, when the representatives of the victims should file their Heads and also the day on which we can meet for the argument.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, I agree with that. I just would like to know, that will obviously be dependant when we can get the record of all the evidence that will ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I believe that it shouldn't be too much of a delay, but if you can work in - I think we'll push them to get it out by next week.

MR MARTINI: ; Chairperson, we have the first week's, it's just the last week.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure we'll be able to have it next week. Work on the basis that we'll get it some time next week. And then also, if there is a day of argument, where it will be most convenient to have it. Yes, that's what I'm saying, I don't know if the victims want to be present at the argument or what, but whatever the situation, if you can just discuss all aspects relating to it.

MS COLERIDGE: We will, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll adjourn till half past nine tomorrow.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS