Amnesty Hearings

 

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE:: 03 FEBRUARY 1998

HELD AT:: CAPE TOWN

NAME: W R BELLINGAN

CASE NO: AM5283/97

NAME: T J MBELO

CASE NO: AM3785/96

DAY:: 1

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON:: As I understood, we had stood this matter down till 11’o clock. It’s now eight minutes past eleven. What is the reason for this further delay?

INTERPRETER:: The speaker’s mike is not on.

ADV J MOSES:: I beg your pardon. I was told that the mike was not on. My Lord, members of the Committee, we have heard, as I have informed you in chambers of problems with regard to the conducting of proper consultations in this matter. Because of practical and logistical problems my client has only arrived yesterday and last night was the only time that we could really consult meaningfully in relation to this matter.

I know that I have requested an adjournment, or that the matter stand down for about an hour and that you have given me until 11 ‘o clock. It is now a few minutes past eleven and I can only but humbly apologise for causing that delay. I am really sorry and I undertake that that will not happen again, my Lords, members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you.

ADV J MOSES:: If I may proceed, Chairperson, my Lord, members of the Committee. As I have already indicated, myself and Ms P Berlin will be assisting Mr Mbane in reading his evidence to this Committee and before this Committee. The evidence, as you all know, relates and as we were made to understand, relates to the incident commonly referred to as the Guguletu 7.

Ms Berlin is a Masters student at the University of Lundt in Sweden and because of the fact that this is a Legal Aid instruction, I had had the benefit, together with Mr Mbane, of Ms Berlin’s voluntary assistance. It was discussed with Mr Mbane and he does not have any objection, subject to the Committee’s approval, that Ms Berlin indeed assist us, and especially given the short time that we had had to properly prepare for this matter, we are, Mr Mbane and myself, are indeed indebted to Ms Berlin’s assistance.

My Lords, Chairperson, we propose that Ms Berlin will lead the introductory evidence of Mr Mbane which I will refer to as the first section of his evidence, and I will thereafter, with your permission, take over to lead the read the rest of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON:: Mr Moses, I am told when you first introduced yourself, your microphone was not on. Will you please re-introduce yourself, for the sake of the record?

ADV J MOSES:: As it pleases the Committee. My name is Advocate Joey Moses and I am a member of the Cape Bar. I have been asked to appear on behalf of - assist Mr Mbane in leading and giving his testimony to this Committee in the application, or the amnesty application of Wilhelm Riaan Bellingan and Tapelo Johannes Mbelo.

If that suffice, my Lord, members of the Committee, and before my client would be asked to administer the oath, there is just one preliminary issue which I would like to deal with, with the permission of the Chairperson and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: Well, before you do that I have been told, for some reason it escapes me at the moment, that the other counsel also asked to put themselves on record, which they did at the commencement of the proceedings. I am not sure that Mr van der Merwe did so. His name doesn’t appear on the first couple of pages of the record, I don’t think, but for the sake of the thing, could you all please repeat the performance.

MR BOOYENS:: Kobus Booyens, instructed by Francois van der Merwe for the Applicant, Mr Bellingan, Mr Chairman.

MR P WILLIAMS:: Peter Williams of the firm E Moosa, Wagley & Petersen, acting on behalf of the second applicant in this matter.

MR S HUGO:: Schalk Hugo, of the firm Solomon, Nicholson, Rhyno & Verster, and I am acting on behalf of the witness, Eugene de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON:: Is there a second Mr Williams?

MR B WILLIAMS:: Thank you your Lordship. Brent Williams, Y. Ebrahim & Company, we act on behalf of the families of the Guguletu 7. Thank you.

MS R PATEL:: R. Patel, leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

ADV J MOSES:: If I may then proceed, Chairperson. As I have indicated there is a preliminary issue with which I would like to deal with your permission. I have taken the liberty of preparing a very brief summary of the main points which I would like to make before Mr Mbane is requested to take the oath, and with your leave, may I ask to hand this to the members of the Committee, as well as to my colleagues.

If I may, Chairperson, these submissions are, or were, prepared on the basis or on the premise that the members of the Committee as well as my learned colleagues are indeed in possession of a statement which was prepared and which was apparently taken from Mr Mbane by the investigating unit of the Commission, which statement I am informed and instructed is indeed in the possession of the members of the Committee and the various legal representatives.

The statement which I have been given and the original which has been signed is up to paragraph 59, Chairperson, and I mention that because we have also been furnished with, inter alia, volume two of the bundle of documents before you, where under the index, item number 9, which would be the first on the front page of volume 2, would be Frank Mbane’s affidavit. And you will see, Chairperson, that according to that copy, or that affidavit, it is neither signed and it runs up to paragraph 65. I am told and I have just been handed the original which, the signature had been confirmed by my client and that original only contains 59 paragraphs and I am mentioning that because that will be used as the basis for the evidence of Mr Mbane.

CHAIRPERSON:: I am a little confused on this volume two, Frank Mbane’s affidavit. Mine runs, paragraph 36 jumps to paragraph 64.

ADV J MOSES:: That is indeed so my Lord, members of the

Committee, and that is why, before we proceed, I needed to get clarity whether the Committee members as well as the legal representatives have indeed been furnished with a true copy of the actual affidavit of Mr Mbane, or the actual statement of Mr Mbane.

And I have to apologise for the confusion, but I was also confused when I was furnished with these different affidavits and that is why I need to correct that before we proceed with these proceedings.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Which one are you going to use then, Mr Moses?

ADV J MOSES:: The one which I have in my possession, it starts with "Statement sworn under oath" and starts with paragraph 1 up to and including paragraph 59.

JUDGE MILLER:: Mr Moses, it would seem if one takes a look at...let’s call the one that finishes at 59 the affidavit, and the other one the statement, that they are the same up until 36, if you turn to paragraph 36 in both, they seem to be exactly the same on the same - the page starts with the same word and ends with the same word, but then if you turn to the ending of the affidavit, the last page where the signature is on the affidavit, it is completely different to the ending where the signature ought to have been on the statement, so it looks like there has been some change from the start of paragraph 36 to the end, and that seems a bit of a mystery, doesn’t it...one doesn’t know what’s contained from 36 to 59, but it might or might not be the same. And it might not be the same if one takes a look at the ending where it’s not just an omission.

ADV J MOSES:: That is indeed so, my Lord, I have been instructed that the statement which we could refer to as the affidavit and which runs up to paragraph 59, that that affidavit is, that statement is indeed the statement which was signed by Mr Mbane, and that is why I have requested...

CHAIRPERSON:: There is something very wrong with the sound system.

JUDGE MILLER:: You see, Mr Moses, one might also be left with the feeling and one doesn’t know that if one takes a look at the affidavit, the deposition, the signature of the deponents and the Commissioner of oaths stand alone on a page of its own, so one doesn’t know whether there is anything else from paragraph 59 to 65 or 165, we don’t know, because the signatures are on their own page, so we don’t even know whether this is a complete affidavit.

ADV J MOSES:: That is...I can only confirm that and as I have indicated, the only...(microphone off). I still have a serious problem with my microphone. That’s better.

Chairperson, that is why we - I have raised certain preliminary issues for the sake, for the sake of clarity on the part of the Commission as well as for the other interested parties, because my instructions are that we will be using this statement leading up to and including paragraph 59 as the basis of the evidence which will be tendered.

I cannot really comment and advise the Committee on the status of that statement, that is why I refer with respect to it as a statement, but since it, as I have indicated, it would seem to have been gathered by the investigation unit in the course of their investigations and it pertains information which seemingly would be crucial to the just disposition of these applications. I would submit that it could serve as the basis of the tendering of Mr Mbane’s evidence, what ever the status of that statement might be.

If your Lordships and members of the Committee are prepared to proceed or let Mr Mbane proceed on that basis, then I would request just to briefly deal with one or two aspects of the preliminary issues which I have raised in the document, which I have just handed to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: Do you have anything further to say?

ADV J MOSES:: Chairperson, members of the Committee. If you would allow me just to briefly explain the purpose and the context of these submissions.

Chairperson as I have indicated previously, I was made to understand that the statement, even if it was in the form as contained in volume 2, was indeed distributed, not only to members of the Committee, but also to members of the other legal representatives. And the problem and the basis why I was instructed to raise this with the Committee is with specific reference firstly to the fact that Mr Mbane had been subpoenaed to give evidence and secondly, by the specific - or the aspects mentioned in paragraph 28, 29, 30 and 31 and including 32 of that statement, which...

MS KHAMPEPE:: May I interrupt Mr Moses. Are you referring to the statement as contained in volume 2, or are you referring to the affidavit which you intended to use today?

CHAIRPERSON:: There still seems to be something very wrong with the sound system....

ADV J MOSES:: If I may proceed Chairperson.

The gist of the submission my Lords, members of the Committee, is that from those paragraphs which I have referred to, it is clearly, or it is clear that that would constitute evidence or information which might be to the detriment of the witness and as such might incriminate him. Now it is clear as I understand the provisions of Section 31, my Lord, members of the Committee, that evidence tendered at a Committee in the course of their proceedings could be inadmissible, provided it does not fall within the proviso to sub-section 3 of Section 31.

The problem of Mr Mbane, my Lords, members of the Committee, is that there was no application for amnesty and there is...the act does not prohibit the Attorney General from indeed instituting prosecution against Mr Mbane and in the context of that...of that possibility, that real possibility, that it is submitted that an order might have to be made by the Committee with regard to the evidence which might be elicited either through examination in chief, or through cross examination. Because from the statement, whether it be in the form as contained in volume 2, or in the form as it is indicated and reflected in the original document, it is clearly, it is clear from that that those evidence or facts would conforms to what is referred to in Section 31, sub-section 2(c) of the Act, where it is, and it reads thus my Lords and members of the Commission:

"A person referred to in sub-section 1 shall only be compelled to answer a question or to produce an article which may incriminate him or her if the Commission has issued an order to that effect."

And then the objective jurisdictional requirement, as I understand it, my Lords members of the Commission, after the Commission firstly has consulted with the Attorney General who has jurisdiction, and has satisfied itself that to require such information from such a person is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality, and has satisfied itself that such a person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question or produce an article on the grounds that such an answer or article might incriminate him or her.

Now it seems to me with respect, my Lords and members of the Committee, and I might be wrong, that in order for Mr Mbane to invoke only the privilege of his evidence not being admissible against him in criminal proceedings should it follow, an order at least is required to be issued by this Committee. That in any event, it seems to me and it is submitted with respect, would not preclude the Attorney General to institute criminal proceedings. It would, however, preclude him or her to use his evidence which would be elicited here and which clearly indicates that it would be of incriminating nature to be used against Mr Mbane, should he be prosecuted.

JUDGE MILLER:: Mr Moses, so one of the aspects of which the Commission has to satisfy itself is that the person has refused or is likely to refuse to answer a question. As we are sitting here now at this stage, can the Committee, can it be said that the Committee has satisfied itself that as of present, your client is unwilling to answer any question that may be put to him now, even if it is incriminating at this stage?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, it is clear that we will have to invoke that privilege.

JUDGE MILLER:: So we can then safely put it up that we have satisfied ourselves in terms of 2(c).

ADV J MOSES:: Correctly so my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON:: I am afraid I am still a little confused. There is this statement that has been handed in for some purpose or another. But how relevant is it?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, Chairperson, members of the Committee, it seems that the relevance of the complete statement, it would be argued and submitted at a later stage, would include, would run up to only and including paragraph 35, would be submitted that with reference to the original document of the original statement which runs into paragraph up to and including paragraph 59, those would really be irrelevant to the subject matter of these proceedings and should that be canvassed by any of my colleagues, we will certainly have to ask the Committee to make a ruling on the relevancy thereof or otherwise.

The purpose of my preliminary submission would relate, as I have indicated, to the potential eliciting of incriminating answers from Mr Mbane, with reference to the paragraphs which I have referred to. Paragraphs 28 up to and including paragraph 32 of the statement, my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON:: Do I understand that it’s only those paragraphs that you object to? Paragraphs 28 to 32?

ADV J MOSES:: Because there are clear indications that Mr Mbane is incriminated.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Is it not really, Mr Moses, that it is only part of 32 which might actually give rise to such an incriminating situation insofar as Mr Mbane is concerned?

ADV J MOSES:: Could Madam just repeat that, I couldn’t hear...

(Question repeated)

CHAIRPERSON:: There are a number of other paragraphs that implicate him. So why have you chosen these?

ADV J MOSES:: These were referred to by way of example, my Lords and members of the Committee. The gist of my submission, with respect, would be that certainly there was already an indication by myself on behalf of Mr Mbane that there would be, by virtue of my instruction, there would be an objection should answers be elicited which might be on an incriminating nature, and if that is the case, would that then fall under the provisions of Section 31.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thirty one appears to say that he can be compelled to answer any question put to him with regard to the subject matter of the hearing, that is the application for amnesty that is before us. That is all he can be compelled to answer. Is that not so?

ADV J MOSES:: That is so, that is so my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON:: And who has subpoenaed him to give evidence?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, I have requested the original subpoena and I was given only a pro-forma example thereof, so I am not in a position to hand the original subpoena to the Committee, but it would seem that he was subpoenaed by members of the investigating unit, or members gathering information for the purpose of the amnesty Committee and their work. Perhaps the Counsel for the Committee could be of assistance there, my Lord. I apologise - inform you fully as to that aspect, but I have requested a copy of the subpoena. I wasn’t given one.

MS R PATEL:: If I may clarify the position, Honourable Chairperson. The witness was definitely subpoenaed by us. He was subpoenaed by us.

CHAIRPERSON:: And on what is it proposed to lead his evidence? In regard to what evidence are you going to lead him?

MS R PATEL:: The purpose of the subpoena was to elicit not only the information that was gathered from the statement that was included in the bundle, but also whatever other information he may have had that was relevant to the present enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON:: But I understand you to say that he was subpoenaed merely to give evidence as to what took place at the scene of the so-called Guguletu 7 incident.

MS R PATEL:: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: And is he also expected to give evidence about the infiltration of this group?

MS R PATEL:: That is correct. Not just the scene but the entire operation leading up to the killing of the deceased in this matter.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Ms Patel, on what basis was the statement contained in volume 2 included in the bundle that was given to us and the legal representatives of the applicants?

MS R PATEL:: Just a bit of background. At the time that the statement was included in the bundle, Mr Mbane was untraceable from my information. And at the pre-trial hearing, it was included in the bundle for what it was worth. The Committee could have taken whatever cognisance they felt - they felt was, I beg your pardon. They could have taken whatever cognisance they wanted of it at that stage, and also there was no indication then they we would ever have traced Mr Mbane.

JUDGE MILLER:: My recollection is that the last time this Committee sat and it was indicated that Mr Mbane - that the intention was to call Mr Mbane as a witness in this matter, it was the view of the Committee that the whole hearing should be postponed in order to allow him to obtain legal representation which he has now obtained for the very purpose, for the very reason that there was incriminating statements relating to this incident contained in his so-called affidavit, particularly just for example, paragraph 28 and 30.

So I now ask, has the Attorney General been consulted in this matter, as envisaged by 31(2)(a)? Section 31(2)(a) says that a person referred to in sub-section 1, that is -

a witness who may be required to answer incriminating questions, shall only be compelled to answer a question if

(a) the Commission has consulted the Attorney General who has jurisdiction.

That’s one of three requirements. Has that occurred or not?

MS R PATEL:: If I may. Firstly that point was never raised prior to today, and secondly my understanding of the said section is that it falls within the scope of the Commission and not the Committee or the evidence leader as such.

JUDGE MILLER:: I am just asking are you aware of whether they has been complied with?

MS R PATEL:: Not it hasn’t.

JUDGE MILLER:: By the Commission?

MS R PATEL:: To the best of my knowledge, not.

ADV J MOSES:: Perhaps for the benefit of my colleague, with your permission my Lords, members of the Committee, a Committee is also defined in Section 1 as reference and including or the Commission in chapter 6 refers to a Committee or the Commission as well. So the reference to Commission in Section 31 would include a Committee such as yourself, with respect.

MS KHAMPEPE:: I think that Ms Patel is aware of that. It’s just that there are certain departments dealing with various issues and we do have a legal advisor who deals specifically with such issues in the Commission, not necessarily in the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: Anybody else wish to say anything on this?

MR BOOYENS:: Just one aspect Mr Chairperson. It seems that if one looks at page 395 and 396 of the second volume and Mr Justice Miller referred thereto specifically, it’s apparent that this affidavit that we have been given going to paragraph 59 is not a complete one because there is a paragraph - 60 to 65 is missing from it and perhaps the evidence leader could just inform us what is going on here. I don’t know whether it’s relevant because I haven’t got it. Sixty four seems to refer to something to do with trains, or something like that, now that obviously wouldn’t be relevant but then there is a part of paragraph 63 which also refers to something else.

I don’t know whether there are perhaps some paragraphs missing from that affidavit. That is one thing that seems to be the cause of some concern here. Otherwise, I’ve got nothing further to add.

MS R PATEL:: I would imagine, Mr Chairperson, that the best person to answer that would be my investigating officer. If I can call him.

He seems to have stepped out - the logistics officer has just gone to look for him. Thanks.

MR B WILLIAMS:: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee. On behalf of the families, we would just like to say that we would consider Mr Mbane’s evidence to be of vital importance in elucidating the circumstances surrounding the killing of the Guguletu 7 and the planning and infiltration which occurred. However, we do believe and it appears as though my colleague on behalf of Mr Mbane has indicated that Mr Mbane will be invoking his right against self incrimination.

It is almost self evident that if he were to testify about the incident itself, he exposes himself to possible criminal prosecution. It looks therefore to us that the Committee really has no option but to actually fulfil those jurisdictional requirements before we actually proceed with Mr Mbane’s evidence.

CHAIRPERSON:: Anyone else wish to say anything?

MS KHAMPEPE:: Ms Patel? It would appear that there has been communication between yourselves and Mr Vally’s office in connection with this matter. Can we take it as a fact?

MS R PATEL:: That is correct. I would suggest then that...or request that the matter stand down for a short while in order for me to make those arrangements and call the office. Apparently it won’t take too long.

CHAIRPERSON:: If the office has not contacted the Attorney General, they will have to do so won’t they? And that may take a little longer. It’s now just about 12 ‘o clock. It seems to be more sensible to adjourn till 2 ‘o clock so you will have two hours in which to make arrangements because it does seem to us and I think that I’m speaking on behalf of all of us that in the circumstances existing, the potential witness, Mr Mbane, does fall within the provisions of Section 31 and I imagine that the Attorney General will want to know a little bit about the alleged offences before he gives his consent.

So I think we should adjourn till 2 ‘o clock.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON:: I am informed that the legal officer acting on our behalf has consulted with the Attorney General in terms of the provisions of Section 31 of the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and further we are satisfied that to require such information from the witness is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality and we are satisfied that from the Notice we were given that the person was not content to comply with the provisions of Section 2(c). Is that so?

ADV J MOSES:: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: We are now satisfied from the information before us that the provisions of Section 31 have been complied with and that the witness is required subject to provisions of sub-sections 2,3 and 5 to answer any questions put to him with regard to the subject matter of this hearing, notwithstanding that the answers might incriminate him. That is in terms of Section 31 (1).

ADV J MOSES:: As the Committee pleases.

Chairperson, members of the Committee, with your permission, we would the proceed with the evidence of Mr Mbane, and as I have indicated and requested before, Ms Berlin will lead the initial part of the evidence with your permission. As the Committee pleases.

I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I have also indicated that the witness himself will converse in Xhosa. The questions and evidence will be led by Ms Berlin in English. It has been arranged with the interpreters also.

JIMMY MBANE:: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS P BERLIN:: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee and legal representatives, I am now going to start leading Mr Mbane’s evidence and I am on paragraph 1 of page 387 in the second volume.

Mr Mbane, under paragraph 1, is the information, your particulars under paragraph 1, are they correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they are correct.

MS P BERLIN:: Is the microphone on? Yes, okay I don’t have a light here so I don’t know. Yes I am going to do a sort of summary of the first paragraphs here and the statement, just to get as conveniently as possible to the more relevant parts. I see here in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 that you come from Port Elizabeth and that you stayed in Port Elizabeth until 1969 where you also studied, and in 1969 you were 14 years old, and that is when your uncle arranged for you to visit your father in Rhodesia, more particularly in Bulawayo, and after you came back from that visit which lasted three weeks, you wished to return to Rhodesia and your mother did not want you to, but you went to Rhodesia anyway and met your father again and stayed there and furthered your studies in Rhodesia and that you came back to Port Elizabeth in 1975, and that was when you were approximately 20 years old. Is this correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it is correct.

MS P BERLIN:: Then you stayed on in Port Elizabeth and you worked at Ford Motor Company until 1981 when you took a conscious decision to go back to Zimbabwe to join the African National Congress. Is this correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN:: When you came to Zimbabwe you met a certain guy, it says under paragraph 6. This certain guy, who was this?

MR J MBANE:: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN:: I’m sorry, I asked you a question. You met a certain guy, who was this guy, what was his name?

MR J MBANE:: It was Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN:: And he was a member of the ANC. When exactly did you go to Zimbabwe?

MR J MBANE:: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN:: Your girlfriend contacted you later on and you then...you were then looking for an excuse of joining the ANC, in paragraph 7. Why did you need an excuse to join the ANC?

MR J MBANE:: I was working in my father’s company and I had no other choice. I had to have an excuse to leave.

MR P BERLIN:: You mean you had to have an excuse to leave your family and not telling them what you were going to do?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was forced to. They did not have to know what I was going to do.

MS P BERLIN:: When was this? Can you remember exactly when this was?

MR J MBANE:: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. So you then had to get an excuse. You decided to get drunk and you beat your girlfriend and smashed windows and you were arrested. Then you told the police you wanted to join the ANC. Why was it a good idea to tell the police that you were going to join the ANC?

MR J MBANE:: The police didn’t take me straight to the ANC, they had to interrogate me first, and then take me to the ANC.

MS P BERLIN:: So with the police do you mean the Central Intelligence Organisation in Zimbabwe?

MR J MBANE:: Yes.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay. So the CIO helped ANC to recruit people?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it was assisting it to recruit because they would interrogate you and thereafter they would call the ANC to come and collect you.

MS P BERLIN:: How long a time did you stand in Central Prison waiting for the ANC to collect you?

MR J MBANE:: It might be three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. Then in paragraph 8 you were released from prison and you met a guy named Flint Moore again. Was this the same guy that you met in paragraph 6?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it’s the very same person.

MS P BERLIN:: So, couldn’t he have taken you to the Indian guy in paragraph 8, immediately, in order for you to join the ANC without having to be arrested?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he is the one, Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN:: Yes, I believe I asked you if he could have...he was the one who recommended you to become arrested and tell the police that you wanted to join the ANC. Couldn’t he have helped you join the ANC before, without the arrest?

MR J MBANE:: There was another problem. Before taking me, they had to interrogate me, because the apartheid regime they used to assassinate people and thus they had to establish that I was genuine.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. You say in paragraph 8 that you were sent to Ashton Park. Could you please tell us where Ashton Park is?

MR J MBANE:: It is in Harare.

MS P BERLIN:: And you stayed there at Ashton Park for almost six months and then you started to panic. Can you please explain to us why you started panicking?

MR J MBANE:: What I realised there was that there was a shooting that once took place in that house and South Africans killed an ANC member there, and thus I panicked.

And another thing, my father was also publicising in the radio media about my whereabouts.

MS P BERLIN:: Could you not have contacted him and told him that you were okay?

MR J MBANE:: No, we were not allowed to make any calls or even go out in the streets.

MS P BERLIN:: And why was this?

MR J MBANE:: It was for the security reasons.

MS P BERLIN:: Alright, thank you.

Then you left in paragraph 9...is it working? Is it working now? Hello? Now? Paragraph 9, you were taken to Cheronto from Ashton Park...

CHAIRPERSON:: Your machine isn’t working.

MS P BERLIN:: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON:: Your loudspeaker isn’t working.

MS P BERLIN:: Is it working now? Thank you.

You were taken to Cheronto. When was this?

MR J MBANE:: It was after having stayed there for six months, they took me to Cheronto. That was in 1982.

MS J BERLIN:: I think it’s working now. Yes. Shall I just ask you again. That you stayed for six months in Ashton Park and then you were taken to Cheronto. And would this be in January of 1982. Cheronto being in Zambia.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it’s on the border line of Zambia and Zimbabwe.

MS J BERLIN:: Then you were taken to a recruitment centre in Lusaka, and you met some people you knew from Port Elizabeth. These were friends of yours?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it was friends from Port Elizabeth.

MS J BERLIN:: And how did they end up in Lusaka? Could you tell us that story please?

MR J MBANE:: They had completed their training and their office bearers there.

MS J BERLIN:: Yes, I am sorry. I just needed to think a little here.

Did you stay there for six months, that would take us to June/July 1982. And then in paragraph 10, you were taken to Tandera. Could you tell us where Tandera is?

MR J MBANE:: It is in Zambia, Lusaka. It is the base of new recruits.

MS P BERLIN:: And you spent almost nine months there, is this correct. I think you told me that it was six months, is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it’s correct.

MS P BERLIN:: So you spent six months there? And what did you exactly do there?

MR J MBANE:: We were undergoing political education as to how the ANC operated and we were waiting for the correct passports because we were using false documents then.

MS P BERLIN:: And where were you going to if you needed passports?

MR J MBANE:: I was to go to Angola for training.

MS P BERLIN:: And the Vienna Camp, is that a transit camp where you stayed first when you entered Angola and then you were transferred to the training camp, Kashid?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it is a transit camp in Angola where you undergo training.

MS P BERLIN:: Did you undergo training at Vienna Camp?

MR J MBANE:: No, I did not undergo any training in Vienna, only at Kashid Camp.

MS P BERLIN:: And what exactly were you trained for in Kashid Camp?

MR J MBANE:: It was military combat work that we trained for and military engineering, firearms training and artillery. And political education of the ANC as well.

MS P BERLIN:: So, this training at Kashid Camp in Angola lasted for six months, so you would, so we can assume that you graduated from this training and by June 1983...

MR J MBANE:: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN:: And then I understand it that you would like to go back to South Africa. Tell us what you wanted to do when you were ready with your training.

MR J MBANE:: I wanted to come on a mission in order to fight in the country.

MS P BERLIN:: And exactly why did Chris Hani refuse you to go back to South Africa and send you to the USSR instead?

MR J MBANE:: He said it was very early. Papers were sent from the Headquarters in Lusaka instructing me to go back to the Headquarters, but because of some confusion, I landed up in the Soviet Union, but I was not supposed to go there.

MS P BERLIN:: Why is this? Where were you supposed to have gone?

MR J MBANE:: I was supposed to go to Lusaka, not the Soviet Union. That’s why they recalled me from the Soviet Union to return to Lusaka.

MS P BERLIN:: And what did you do in Lusaka?

MR J MBANE:: From the Soviet Union I went to the transit camp in Vienna. There I didn’t stay for a long time and proceeded to Lusaka, where I got my instructions.

MS P BERLIN:: And are these instructions...let me see...are these the instructions in paragraph 14? Instructions to go to Port Elizabeth and then eliminate a Security Branch Police by the name of Van Rensburg and other two brothers?

MR J MBANE:: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN:: Can you please clarify for us who these two brothers were?

MR J MBANE:: It was Tungata, and his brother Macici. I don’t know his real name, I only know his nickname.

MS P BERLIN:: Were these blood brothers of Van Rensburg, or were they shall I call it "cultural" brothers, black brothers?

MR J MBANE:: They were working with Van Rensburg in the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth.

MS P BERLIN:: Yes, but I asked you about the two brothers. Who were they, were they brothers of Van Rensburg?

MR J MBANE:: No, they were not Van Rensburg’s brothers. Van Rensburg was a white person and the other two were Xhosa’s.

MS P BERLIN:: I see. Thank you.

Then in paragraph 15 you met Flint Moore again. He assisted you with your passport. Now you had got your instructions to go to Port Elizabeth on this mission and Flint Moore assisted you with your passport. Was that a South African passport you were issued with?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it was a South African passport, but it had already expired.

MS P BERLIN:: But did you have any problems in entering South Africa in spite of the fact that the passport was expired?

MR J MBANE:: I had to go the High Commissioner of South Africa to apply for a new passport, and I did exactly that.

MS P BERLIN:: And you got your new passport?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I did.

MS P BERLIN:: Then you had to wait in Bulawayo, and you stayed there for a very long time, or stayed very long in Bulawayo Hotel waiting for weapons to be delivered. How long a time did you stay in Bulawayo?

MR J MBANE:: It might have been three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN:: And then you are stating that you talked to Lennox, one of your commanders, and he recommended you to contact you father and ask him for money, since you had spent so much in Bulawayo. And then you met Sheriff, who was from Ordinance Department, and then you went to meet your father.

Can you explain what Ordinance Department is, please, shortly?

MR J MBANE:: I talked about Lennox - Lennox was my second in charge after Chris Hani. He gave me money to the value of R1500.00 because we were both from Port Elizabeth, and he gave me R800.00 to hand over to his brother and then proceed to Harare.

CHAIRPERSON:: But you told us Chris Hani, in your previous paragraph, you said Chris Hani gave you R1500.00, and Thozamile Botha gave you R500.00 to give his brother. Now do you say it’s Lennox?

MR J MBANE:: Chris Hani and Lennox gave me R1500.00. Thozamile Botha is from Port Elizabeth, he gave me R800.00 to give to his brother.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay, but you talked to Lennox about getting more money, didn’t you?

MR J MBANE:: No, I never spoke to Lennox. He was accompanied by Chris Hani. And they both gave me money.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay, thank you. I think I’ll leave that. It’s maybe not relevant.

We’ll skip to paragraph 16. You were...there was a person called (...indistinct) who brought you weapons for this mission in Port Elizabeth. What kind of weapons were brought to you?

MR J MBANE:: It was a Makarov and two boxes full of ammunition and three magazines full.

MS P BERLIN:: And you went to South Africa and you came to Kimberly and there you couldn’t proceed because you didn’t have any money. You left your bags at the station and took your weapon with you and took a walk about the place. In which way did you leave your bags at the station?

MR J MBANE;: I left them in the baggage cloakroom.

MS P BERLIN:: What was in the bags.

MR J MBANE:: It was my clothing. I took my firearms and ammunition with. It was only clothing inside the bag.

MS P BERLIN:: And why did you not leave your weapon in the bag?

MR J MBANE:: As a trained person you are not allowed to part with your ammunition, it’s like your wife. You must carry it with you all the time. Thus I could not possibly leave it at all, because there would be a risk of anybody else finding them.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. And paragraph 17, you say "I moved around in Kimberly". Do you mean you walked around in Kimberly, looking for the UDF’s offices, hoping that they would give you money?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I thought they were going to help me. They had to help me because UDF was working with the ANC.

MS P BERLIN:: Yes, and you walked around all the time?

MR J MBANE:: I went around asking because it was the first time I came to Kimberly and unfortunately the person I stopped and asked was a policeman.

MS P BERLIN:: Could you tell us what you asked him, or rather what did he answer and what did he do?

MR J MBANE:: I asked him where are the UDF offices, he showed me in a certain direction and after some time, whilst I was in the direction that he pointed me, some policemen came and they were already pointing their firearms at me. I tried to hit back, but my system jammed.

MS P BERLIN:: You took out your Makarov, and what...

MR J MBANE:: Yes.

MS P BERLIN:: And then you were arrested. You were taken where?

MR J MBANE:: I was first taken to Kimberly and stayed there for some time. From there on they took me to Barkly West in chains.

MS P BERLIN:: And where is Barkly West?

MR J MBANE:: It might be 22 km from Kimberly. It’s a police station.

MS P BERLIN:: And what happened at Barkly West? Can you please tell us your story.

MR J MBANE:: Whilst I was in Barkly West I was chained all the time, and they would only unchain me if I was washing, or otherwise I was chained all the time, and I was communicating through windows with the other prisoners, and then I noticed Pappie and George, who we met in exile and they were already arrested as well. So I was chatting with them through the windows all the time, these two gentlemen.

MS S BERLIN:: How do you say you got to know Pappie and George?

MR J MBANE:: We used to chat with them through the windows and they told me that they have been long arrested.

MS S BERLIN:: No, I mean how did you know them from before? Where in exile, how in which way did you meet them?

MR J MBANE:: I was with them in Vienna and Kashid Camp. Me and Pappie were in the same unit, and George was our instructor.

MS P BERLIN:: How long a time did you spend at Barkly West and Kimberly in total?

MR J MBANE:: It might have been seven months. I was travelling every day...to Kimberly where I was being interrogated.

MS P BERLIN:: Paragraph 19. The persons you mention on the first two lines, were those the people who interrogated you, or who did interrogate you?

MR J MBANE:: It was Mr van der Merwe and Tiny. I was with Pappie in the training. The only people who were interrogating me in Kimberly were Tiny and Van der Merwe and the others. There are a lot of them, but I can’t remember their names.

MS P BERLIN:: The visit you mention in paragraph 19, by all these people here. What purpose did that visit have?

MR J MBANE:: I know some of them from exile. I was seeing the others for the very first time. They intention was to recruit me, so that I can work with them.

MS P BERLIN:: They were returned, so to speak?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they were already working in the country?

MS P BERLIN:: And did they help identify you?

MR J MBANE:: Some of them knew me but some of them, I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me.

MS P BERLIN:: When you say that you went to Kimberly, you met De Kock, who gave you two options. Was this the first time you met De Kock?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was seeing him for the very first time.

MS P BERLIN:: In which way did he express that you had two options? To be killed or to co-operate with them...

MR J MBANE:: Chris talked to me but I refused and I told them that it’s not the right thing for me to do. But they told me that someone else is coming to visit me. That’s when I realised that it was De Kock. They told me that here on earth there are only two things. To live or die. So no one will ever know if I’m dead. Even my parents won’t know. So it’s when I started working with them.

MS P BERLIN:: So is the incident you mentioned in paragraph 19, is it the same incident as the first lines in paragraph 20, when De Kock and a certain white policeman known as Tiny took you to a certain farm and threatened you with the parabella gun?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN:: Was this farm Vlakplaas, of which farm was this?

MR J MBANE:: At that time, I didn’t know if it was Vlakplaas. Even now I can’t identify that farm, but I only know that it was in Barkly West.

MS P BERLIN:: So it was close to Barkly West. Were you blindfolded all the time?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was blindfolded.

MS P BERLIN:: Tell I why you agreed to work with these people.

MR J MBANE:: I have two options: either to die or to work. But I didn’t want to die, that’s why I ended up working with them.

MS P BERLIN:: But later here in paragraph 21, you were talking about Pappie and George again and as I understand it, they did not agree to work and they were tried and sentenced to prison. Couldn’t you have done the same?

MR J MBANE:: I decided not to go along with them because I had a lot of information by the time, and they needed that information from me.

MS P BERLIN:: Who needed that information, sorry?

MR J MBANE:: At the time I was being interrogated, I had already released some of the information: where did I get my training, and some photos had been shown to me and it was people who I know from exile. That was the reason why they wanted me to work with them.

TAPE 2

MS P BERLIN:: Why do you think that De Kock was so eager to recruit you? Did you have any particular knowledge?

MR J MBANE:: As I have already told you I had a lot of information. They were communicating with their Headquarters, but I don’t know how and I was still fresh from exile at the time and I used to know a lot of people. I used to know a lot of people so I had a lot of information and that’s the information that they needed. I used to know lots of people at the time and I had a lot of information.

MS P BERLIN:: Can you give us a date when you accepted to work with the Security Branch Police?

MR J MBANE:: I have a problem with remembering the dates, but I think it was after some time, after I said I would work with them, so I can’t remember the dates. I apologise for that.

MS P BERLIN:: So the date that you have given to me before, the 27th February 1984, are you saying now that you can’t remember this for sure?

MR J MBANE:: It was when I was released from prison.

MS P BERLIN:: So you were released from prison on 27th February 1984 and then a while later you started working with De Kock?

MR J MBANE:: I went to Vlakplaas after that from Section 31.

MS P BERLIN:: Alright you went from Section 31 in Kimberly to Vlakplaas. Yes?

MR J MBANE:: Venter and Bothma used to come and show me the photos, it was just a (...indistinct). From there I left with Van der Merwe to Vlakplaas in Pretoria.

MS P BERLIN:: How long a time did you spend at Section 31 at Kimberly and meet with Jack (...indistinct) and Venter and look at the photos?

MR J MBANE:: It was just a short period but what I can remember is that I spent 7 months both in Kimberly and Barkly.

MS P BERLIN:: Alright. You met Eric Maluleki at Section 31. How did you know him from before?

MR J MBANE:: Eric Maluleki used to be my instructor in firearms in Kashido Camps, that’s how I know him.

MS P BERLIN:: He later gave evidence in Court against Pappie and George. Why didn’t you do that, do you know?

MR J MBANE:: He wanted to be free.

MS P BERLIN:: And was he?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he did.

MS P BERLIN:: You mean Eric Maluleki wanted to be free and he was set free while he testified, or what are you saying?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he was freed. Yes, he got his freedom.

MS P BERLIN:: So when were you taken to Vlakplaas, I am now on paragraph 22.

MR J MBANE:: After the identification of photos, I left with Van der Merwe. He was with some other white men. They took us to Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN:: And this was some time after the 27th February, so it might have been, would you say sometime in March 1984?

MR J MBANE:: It might be the first few days of March.

MS P BERLIN:: The other persons that you met at Vlakplaas who you knew from exile, were they also turned?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they were from exile.

MS P BERLIN:: So, can you tell us a bit about Vlakplaas hierarchy in paragraph 23, I understand that you became an Askari, and under whom did you fit into the Vlakplaas hierarchy, who was your commander?

MR J MBANE:: Eugene De Kock used to be the commander. And then there was another white man, Mr Venter, Captain Venter, and others, but the people who were in command used to be Captain Venter and Mr Eugene de Kock.

MS P BERLIN:: So you were working directly under De Kock and took orders from De Kock?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN:: You say in paragraph 23 that De Kock took you to the bar, and this I understand is a bar at Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, there is a bar.

MS P BERLIN:: Then he told you that the purpose of being at Vlakplaas is to hunt and kill the terrorists. What did you think when you heard this.

MR J MBANE:: I had already given up that I would work with them, there was nothing else I could do at the time.

MS P BERLIN:: In paragraph 24 you say that you were given the first mission. Is this a direct statement, that this first mission should be the one to Cape Town?

MR J MBANE:: My first mission - I think there’s a mistake, there’s an error a typing error here, because the first mission was among Soweto and Krugersdorp. We were hunting people there. My first mission was in Cape Town in 1986, the serious mission.

MS P BERLIN:: You mean your first serious mission was in Cape Town in 1996?

MR J MBANE:: In 1986.

MS P BERLIN:: Of course, thank you - 1986. But you came to Vlakplaas in 1984 and what kind of missions what kind of operations were there in Vlakplaas then that you did?

MR J MBANE:: We were patrolling at the bus stops, at the Stations, Baragwanath Hospital, the taxi ranks. We wanted to see if we could identify people there. It’s where I met this gentleman called Metzing, the one that I killed - I beg your pardon, the one that I shot.

MS P BERLIN:: I am sorry but I don’t follow you here. Have you mentioned this name in this paragraph.

MR J MBANE:: We were patrolling all over the place. It’s also in my statement but I can’t remember which paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON:: Is this Metzing you’re talking about?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, Metzing.

CHAIRPERSON:: Paragraph 37.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay, I will not proceed on that one, since it doesn’t have to do with Guguletu 7 directly, this is about some missions before 1986.

Now, until when did you stay at Vlakplaas, just to get the full picture?

MR J MBANE:: I stayed there until mid 1990 when I was changed to work for the intelligence. After that I left, I went to work for National Intelligence.

MS P BERLIN:: Until when did you work there?

MR J MBANE:: Until 1992.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay thank you.

Now, in paragraph 24 where you’re talking about the mission to Cape Town. And by that we can say that we have come to the very relevant parts for this hearing. You said that in your unit there were Joe Kotze and several other persons. What is a unit, what was a unit at Vlakplaas, how permanent was it? Can you tell us a bit about that?

MR J MBANE:: I am not sure whether you want to know about the number of people or what type of operations were taking place there.

MS P BERLIN:: No, I would just like to know what a unit is and how many people approximately in one unit and if you always worked with the same people in a unit and what kind of persons were involved - Askaris, policeman, other staff...

MR J MBANE:: It’s policemen and Askaris and you don’t work with the same person every month.

MS P BERLIN:: So you changed unit every month, or you had a different commander every month?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Ma’am.

MS P BERLIN:: No, I asked you a question. Did you change commander every month, or did you change units every month?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, we were alternating units. This month we would work with another senior and the following month you would work with another group so we were rotating.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. Who was the commander in this particular unit, who was you commander on this mission at this point when you left for Cape Town?

MR J MBANE:: It was Belletjies and Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN:: Could you please say the full names of those persons?

MR J MBANE:: We used to call Bellingan Belletjies and there was Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN:: Bellingan and Coetzee they were from Vlakplaas, I understand?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, Ma’am they were from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you. So you drove the kombi to Cape Town and you stayed in a house in (...indistinct). I’m in paragraph 24 still.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MS P BERLIN:: Were you told why you were sent there?

MR J MBANE:: I want to tell you what’s happening there. If they tell you that you are going to some place, you don’t have to question that, you don’t have to ask why, you’ve got to take your bag and drive to that particular place. So I couldn’t ask why would I have to go to Cape Town and when you arrive in your destination, it is only then that you can get information.

MS P BERLIN:: So who did you meet when you came to Cape Town? Who gave you more information and what kind of information did you get? If you could explain all that to us please.

MR J MBANE:: Liebenberg came to us the following day after our arrival. He was with another white man. They talked to Mr Mbelo, I don’t know what they were talking about. And from there Mbelo disappeared and he came back the following day. Liebenberg came back again and he produced two photographs and he asked us if we know those people but we told him that we don’t know them. They call Shakes Maluleka, they gave us orders, they said you should go and infiltrate in Khayelitsha. That’s where we started.

MS P BERLIN:: Can you please describe who told you to infiltrate in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE:: It was Liebenberg and Belletjies. That’s Bellingan.

MS P BERLIN:: Were you explained why you should infiltrate the people? Did you know the purpose of the infiltration by this instruction you received?

MR J MBANE:: They told us that there were those people who were trained people for they were destabilising Cape Town. We were given instructions that if we see ourselves in danger, it’s either we eliminate them or we shoot them, that was the same thing, as long as we are protecting ourselves.

MS P BERLIN:: Yes, but - okay, so you were told to infiltrate these people because they were dangerous, but did you get any orders to arrest them, or to disarm them, or what were the orders, or didn’t you get any?

MR J MBANE:: We were working in this way. If you see that you are in danger, you don’t have to arrest anybody, you’ve got to eliminate that person, just shoot that person away.

MS P BERLIN:: So what are you saying? That you infiltrated to shoot them?

MR BOOYENS:: With respect that’s not what the witness

My Lord, if I understood the question correctly, the leading question correctly, that you infiltrate them to shoot them, that’s never what the witness said. I object to that question. It’s not a proper question, the witness never said it.

MS P BERLIN:: Okay, I withdraw that question, I am so sorry.

In paragraph 24, the last sentence, you were sent to infiltrate these people with Thabiso Sepamla, can you please explain to us who Thabiso Sepamla was?

MR J MBANE:: It was not Thabiso Sepamla, it’s Eric Shakes Maluleka, it’s not what is written here. I told the people who were writing here that Thabiso was just there in the unit but the person that I was - is Eric Shakes Maluleka.

MS P BERLIN:: So, is the same error made in paragraph 25, "myself and Thabiso Sepamla", it should be Eric Maluleka?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MS P BERLIN:: You infiltrated a squatter camp, you met a certain chief by the name of Nyengeni, in Khayelitsha and he was the leader of a squatter camp. And he organised for you to stay there. How...can you explain how you were accepted there? What was it that made them accept you and offer you a place to stay?

MR J MBANE:: When we arrived there, we told him that we are from exile and we were there on a mission and he must find a place for us to stay because he could see that we had ammunition, the AK47, the hand grenades. So he had to accept us because he had proof that we were from exile.

MR P BERLIN:: And these weapons that you had with you. Where did you get them from?

MR J MBANE:: They were given to us by Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg.

MS P BERLIN:: And did that happen at Vlakplaas or in Koeberg?

MR J MBANE:: The commander from Vlakplaas gave us when we were in Koeberg.

MS P BERLIN:: Can you tell us how many...no, I’m on paragraph 26. After having assisted the squatters to fight the (...indistinct) you are talking about Thabiso and Eric Sifadi and you have indicated to me that this is also an error. Can you explain to us what the real story is?

MR J MBANE:: Eric Maluleka, Eric Shakes Maluleka, not Eric Sifadi or Thabiso.

MS P BERLIN:: So how many weapons were issued to you? Can you remember this?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I can remember clearly. We got four AK47 rifles, eight magazines, four hand grenades and four detonators. A Makarov and a Tokorev.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Mbane, who in particular - you have previously stated that a commander from Vlakplaas gave you the weapons. Who is that commander who gave you the weapons?

MR J MBANE:: Chairperson, the person that accompanies you from Vlakplaas is your commander at that moment and that person was Mr Bellingan. He is the one I came with from Vlakplaas. Belletjies is my commander from Vlakplaas. We came together from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN:: How is it that you can remember exactly what, how many weapons and what kind of weapons were issued to you in paragraph 26?

MR J MBANE:: It is because they were under my control and use. I was in charge of this particular group, that’s why I recall the detail.

MS P BERLIN:: How many people were you going to train at this point...infiltrate at this point?

MR J MBANE:: Initially, I found four people. And a fifth one joined in by the name of Rasta. All in all we were seven in number. Including myself and Eric Maluleka. After sometime, a few joined in and there were nine excluding the two of us.

MS P BERLIN:: Where was it that you infiltrated? Was it in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it was in Khayelitsha.

MS P BERLIN:: In paragraph 27 you talk about a Comrade called Chris Rastaman, who appeared to be locally trained. How did you meet him and how was he accepted into the group?

MR J MBANE:: Yamile told us that there was a Comrade who was trained and is having problems with his AK rifle and he said that we should get in contact with him. I said he must bring him and he did. He came to me with this AK47, it could not fire, it was not firing automatically, it was only firing single shots, and thus I told Shakes that we must assist this gentleman. I inquired as to where did he get his training. He said he trained locally and whoever trained him gave him this AK47.

That is what I heard from him.

MS P BERLIN:: Thank you Mr Mbane. I don’t have any more questions right now for my part, Mr Chairperson, so I will give the word to my colleague, Advocate Moses. Thank you.

ADV J MOSES:: Just to summarise then, Mr Mbane. If we understand your evidence thus far correctly, is that initially when you infiltrated the group, it was a group of four people and thereafter another person joined by the name of Rastaman, and then the group consisted of five people excluding yourself and Eric Shakes Maluleki. Did I understand you correctly?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, you told the Committee that you were told by your commander that the reason why you had to infiltrate this group is because they were heavily trained and they were dangerous and they were destabilising the area in and around the - in Cape Town. Did I understand you correctly?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: Now when you - your first impressions when you first infiltrated the group of four, what was your impressions about their level of training? Taking into consideration that you yourself had been exposed to intensive training in weapons, armoury, explosives and so on, what was your perception of the level of training of those four people?

MR J MBANE:: What I noticed among these four people during our interrogation is the fact that they were untrained. They were not aware of training at all.

ADV J MOSES:: Can you tell the Committee whether you had conveyed those perceptions and that information to any one of your superiors? In other words the information that these people seemed to you not to be trained.

MR J MBANE:: I told them after having seen Rasta, and I told them that there is only one person who has been locally trained, and it’s Rasta and he is in possession of an AK rifle. But the other four are untrained, and they need to be trained because I had the necessary material to train them.

ADV J MOSES:: So, the initial four were not trained, and when Rasta joined the group, you learnt and you got the impression that he was indeed trained. Did I understand you correctly? Is that what you are telling the Committee?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Sir.

JUDGE MILLER:: Sorry, Mr Moses, sorry to interrupt, but on that, you say that Rasta joined the group. Did Rasta join the group or - because I thought you said that Rasta came to the group at your request because you had heard that someone was having trouble with his weapon and you invited that person to be brought to you so

that you could look at the weapon.

What is the position? Did he join the group or did he happen to join the group after being invited to come to have his weapon checked out by yourself?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he joined after I had said he must be brought to me.

ADV J MOSES:: May I proceed?

Look, perhaps just to get more clarity there Mr Mbane, it seems that you were in a position to give instructions and that those instructions would then be adhered to. It would be obeyed. Why would you be in that position, to be able to give instructions, which would be obeyed by other people? What gave you that authority?

MR J MBANE:: Normally, when you come from exile, you cannot be controlled by somebody who is locally trained. He’s got to listen to you and he must just tell you he is going to recruit how many people to be trained, not to tell you what to do, but to take instructions from you because I have extensive training, me and my other colleague, we trained outside the borders.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, when you...the information about the level of training of the initial four and the level of training of Chris Rastaman. That information which you had, did you share that information with anyone besides, obviously yourself and Eric Maluleka who was with you in this operation. Did you share that information with anyone else?

MR J MBANE:: When Rasta came I reported to Messrs Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people are not trained, but there is only one who is and he is in possession of an AK rifle. I was talking to them over the telephone. They were residing somewhere in Seapoint, and I explained to them as to what was happening.

ADV J MOSES:: After you had conveyed this information to the people whom you’ve just mentioned, Bellingan and Liebenberg, what was their reaction? Was there any further instructions? What should be done?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they gave me further instructions. They said that if there is one who is trained, we must train the remaining four as well.

ADV J MOSES:: And did you and Eric, did you adhere to that order? In other words, did you provide training to those other people also?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it is so Sir. We followed the instructions.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, if you were sent on a mission such as this, where you had to infiltrate a certain group of people Mr Mbane, would you be required to keep the person who is your superior, or who is your commander, would you be required to keep that person informed as to what is happening within the group? And if that is so, perhaps you could just enlighten the Committee as to how that works. What is required from you as the infiltrator into a group? What is required from you?

MR J MBANE:: In the event of infiltration and being known that you have been trained beyond the borders, I was given a contact number to use in the event of anything.

Because these ones were not trained, they wouldn’t ask me about my activities. Whatever I did was none of their business. Therefore, I used to contact them telephonically and make appointments and take a car and drive wherever in order to meet them - my commanders.

ADV J MOSES:: So they would...do I understand you correct that they would be....you would report to them periodically so that they would be kept informed as to the developments taking place within that group and within that community where you are operating at the specific point in time. Did I understand you correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes. I was not reporting on a daily basis, but after a day or two, because...I would skip a day or two or even a week before phoning. But some of our people with this operation, you would pass by in a patrol car.

ADV J MOSES:: You are saying that your commanders would be informed by yourselves as to what the developments are if there are any within the group which you have infiltrated?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they would get the information through me. I was the main person who was reporting because Shakes could not drive and that I was doing most of the reporting.

ADV J MOSES:: If you are referring to drive now...did you have access to a vehicle when you established your legend as it were, when you infiltrated this group. Were you given any vehicles or a vehicle?

MR J MBANE:: I was given a kombi that we came down with, from Pretoria with Mbelo.

ADV J MOSES:: Were you...able to use this kombi as part of your mission to infiltrate the group in Khayelitsha?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it is so. We kept it with us in Khayelitsha.

ADV J MOSES:: Did you keep this vehicle right until after the incident which the Committee is concerned with here? Namely, if one could refer to it as the Guguletu 7 incident, or did it appear...did you get rid of it before this incident referred to as the Guguletu 7?

MR J MBANE:: I got rid of it before the event...the police confiscated it.

ADV J MOSES:: Could you briefly tell the Committee how that happened?

MR J MBANE:: When the number had grown to nine and we were doing the training, and they were excited and hungry for action. We went out to shoot a casspir, the doors were closed and we couldn’t injure anybody. When we tried to escape, the kombi was stuck in the sand and thus we ran away and the police came and confiscated the kombi, that’s how I parted with it in Khayelitsha. That was before the mission.

ADV J MOSES:: Do you know what happened to that kombi after it was confiscated by the police?

MR J MBANE:: I contacted Belletjies again and told him about yesterday’s event. I told him about the casspir incident as well. He said I should not worry about that, but I told him that we needed transport. They said they would respray it so that I can re-use it again, but I refused because it would put me in a suspicious position. Therefore, I refused to use the kombi again. And that is how I finally parted with this kombi until I went back to Pretoria.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, in paragraph 28, the reference is made to a alleged person, or a person who is suspected to be an alleged informer. Because that person was found with a tape attached to his body. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes that is correct.

ADV J MOSES:: It is also made there that this person was killed and in paragraph 29, the day after this person was killed, a certain Lieutenant Liebenberg was contacted by yourself and a certain discussion took place between yourself and one Liebenberg. Is that so?

MR J MBANE:: That is so, Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: When this discussion took place, was it only with Liebenberg, or was there any other person also present, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: Whenever I met Bellingan, he was with Liebenberg, they were always together.

ADV J MOSES:: In paragraph 30 reference is made to the fact that the period - you provided these people with training. You gave them some training for a period of two months. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct.

ADV J MOSES:: In order words, would we then be correct to say that your group, the unit with which you came down to Cape Town, were here in Cape Town already for a period of two months or more by the time that the incident referred to as the Guguletu 7 incident happened?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, in paragraph 33, you...reference is made there that the people started demanding, or telling you that they want to fight - the people you are referring to here, who are they Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: These are the people I was training. I had finished training them and they were anxious to go on a mission. It is difficult to train somebody and after finishing, you just keep them idling.

ADV J MOSES:: You got the clear impression from them that they wanted to utilise the skills which they had gained through your training at that point.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: Perhaps you could inform the Committee what...did you decide on any plan of action? Or what was the discussions about and did you make any specific plans? That is now with reference to the group, Mr Mbane.

MR J MBANE:: Whilst we were sitting there, Rasta called me and Shakes aside because he was one of the seniors of the group, and he told me about the kombi, that comes from Montana to Guguletu Police Station and Mannenberg Police Station and is full of Senior Office Inspectors and it uses that route daily, and when he said that to me I said to him first thing in the morning, we must go and recognise that place, and see whether this kombi follows this routine daily and we did that exactly.

This kombi went past that route and it was full of officers as he said and I told Rasta that we must monitor this kombi alternately, and thereafter I called Belletjies and Liebenberg and told them about this problem. The problem was these people have been trained and they want to ambush this kombi that’s using this route.

The following day I sent Shakes and Rasta to check this kombi and they confirmed that it went past at the same time. Whilst they went away, I went to meet Belletjies at a hotel in Seapoint where they had booked in a room and I found them there and explained everything to them.

I told them that there was going to be a problem because these people were fully trained and they want action and wanted to hit this kombi. On the third day, I reported again and they took me with a kombi that has tinted windows and I showed them the spot that was intended to be the ambush spot.

ADV J MOSES:: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Mbane. Who are they who took you with the kombi to the spot?

MR J MBANE:: It was Belletjies and Liebenberg and other white men that I don’t know. It was a lot of us. I showed them the spot and the following day, I sent the other two to go and recognise the area again. And we took the decision that the following morning we are going to shoot the kombi. On the fifth day, that is when this happened, it might be the fourth day, if I’m not mistaken, we woke up in the morning and had breakfast and double checked everything and we had already stolen a bakery van. It was at about 7’o clock because that kombi goes past that place at about 7:25 every morning.

I tried to make sure that our kombi did not start, but unfortunately, we had a mechanic and he fixed that small problem and we managed to drive off. But the previous day, I took two AK47’s and hid them in a blanket so that the following day we would drop them in stages in different positions. In the morning I dropped Shakes and this other gentleman whose name I don’t remember. They had no firearms in their possession. At the second spot I dropped three and the third spot I dropped one, and then I made a u-turn over the bridge. And when I came back I heard a grenade and I hid in the car, and ran away.

When I attempted to run, somebody was firing. As I approached, Belletjies said you must not shoot that tall man, he is one of us. He said that in Afrikaans. Whilst I was still on the ground, I heard a bullet ringing. I was still in the car. They dragged this young man and threw him on the ground and shot him. He was still alive. And when I heard that the firing had stopped, I ran and I went into hiding and some people took me to get some dressing for my wounds and I was taken to Khayelitsha and I boarded a bus to Koeberg and that is where they found me after the whole incident.

That is what I can tell you about that mission. I trained these people and I drew them to their graves.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, perhaps just for the sake of clarity, Mr Mbane, we just need to break up your story a little bit into sections so that the Committee can have a clear understanding as to the sequence, how these events unfold. We know that you were there so you are familiar with what has happened, so bear with us if we just have to take you very slowly through that event.

If I understand you correctly, did you tell the Committee that after you have decided to...after you have made a final decision, the group now, to proceed with the attach on the police vehicle, with the police officers, did you then have a discussion or a meeting with Mr Bellingan and any other person who are connected to the Security establishment. In other words did you see Bellingan, did you tell him this is what is going to happen?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them, I even showed them the spot where everything was supposed to take place.

ADV J MOSES::: Can you remember when was that just in terms of...we know that this incident happened on the 3rd March 1986. Before, was it a day or two days before this incident? When was it that you took Mr Bellingan and company to the scene where the attack is supposed to take place?

MR J MBANE:: It was a day before the attack.

ADV J MOSES:: I also understood you...and you must tell me whether I understood you correctly, that when...before the attack was supposed to have taken place, you and certain people of the group actually went to the scene where the attack was going to take place, to survey the place and make final arrangements for the attack to take place. Did I understand you correctly? Perhaps you should just clarify to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: But wasn’t he quite clear about that. He went there and he looked at the scene himself, he saw this small bus, or whatever it was, and on other occasions he sent other people to check?

MR J MBANE:: Yes it is so.

ADV J MOSES:: Can you remember whether anything was put at the scene prior to the day when the attack was supposed to have taken place.

MR J MBANE:: We put two AK rifles and four magazines there.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, if you say we, Mr Mbane, who are you referring to?

MR J MBANE:: It was myself, Eric and one gentleman who was going to alight with Eric at the same time the next day.

ADV J MOSES:: Can you remember whether you had informed Mr Bellingan about those weapons which were placed there prior to the attack?

MR J MBANE:: No, I never told him.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, on the day of the incident, you have the kombi, you have gathered and you are now on your way to the scene, the place where you are supposed to attack this kombi. How many people were you in total at that stage? How many people were part of the group which was going to participate in the attack?

MR J MBANE:: We were nine in number.

ADV J MOSES:: And if I understand you correct...

MS KHAMPEPE:: May I interrupt? When you say you were nine, does that include you and Mr Maluleka?

MR J MBANE:: That includes myself and Maluleka.

ADV J MOSES:: Now when you approached the scene, from your earlier testimony, it seemed that you were the driver of that vehicle on the day of the incident. Am I correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct.

ADV J MOSES:: Now as you were approaching the place where the attack is going to, or was supposed to have taken place, did you notice anyone, or did you notice anything?

MR J MBANE:: I saw our minibus that we drove from Vlakplaas to Cape Town. I beg your pardon, from Barkly. And there were other people inside this kombi. Although it had tinted windows, I could see that there were people inside.

It was parked there.

ADV J MOSES:: So you identified that kombi as belonging to the police?

MR J MBANE:: It is the kombi that we used. We used two kombis - mini-buses. And the other one was taken by police. And this one was from Pretoria, from Vlakplaas, the one that I saw.

ADV J MOSES:: When you informed Mr Bellingan about the impending attack which would take place on the specific day and at the specific place, did you give him a description of the vehicle which you were going to use at the time?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I gave him a description of the car.

ADV J MOSES:: Is that the description of a car, or a kombi, because the interpreter has mentioned a car now, Mr Mbane.

MR J MBANE:: It was a description of a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON:: When did you steal it?

MR J MBANE:: When we took our decision about the mission. Two days thereafter we went to steal this kombi and we parked this kombi somewhere else two days after the decision was taken....

CHAIRPERSON:: How long was that before the day on which this incident took place?

MR J MBANE:: We were to attack, that took place two days just before the mission.

That was two days before the mission and the mission was going to take place on the third day, that’s when the kombi was stolen.

ADV J MOSES:: Now, you are approaching the scene, you have noticed the familiar kombi which you have identified as one from Vlakplaas, and you have testified then that you first dropped two persons. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

ADV J MOSES:: And those two, the first two, who were they again, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: It was Eric and one gentleman, although I cannot remember their names. It was two of them. I told them to go and fetch the AK47’s and they should go and attack thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON:: Had you seen this kombi parked there by that time?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I saw it.

ADV J MOSES:: So did Eric, besides the fact that you gave them the orders as you’ve just described, did they, did you drop them and did they have at that stage any other weapons or ammunition or firearms or explosives with them when you dropped them first at that first point?

MR J MBANE:: They didn’t have ammunition, they were still on their way to fetch the firearms.

ADV J MOSES:: And you said you drove, you continued driving and thereafter you dropped three persons. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: Would you be able to recall more or less what the distance was between the place where you first dropped the two and the place where you thereafter dropped the three other persons, more or less.

MR J MBANE:: It’s about 200 to 250 metres.

ADV J MOSES:: The second group of three people, whom you dropped, can you remember whether any one or all three of them had any firearms or explosives in their possession when they were dropped?

MR J MBANE:: The last three were armed with pistols and hand grenades. I gave them the pistols and the hand grenades. That was the last three.

ADV J MOSES:: After you had dropped those three persons, what did you, what was the next thing you have done, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE: I dropped one of them - he was also armed with a pistol. We were left, we were three in the kombi. It was me, Chris and one gentleman. We had three AK47’s. All of us were armed with AK47’s.

When I was crossing the bridge, I heard something like a grenade exploding and I jumped.

ADV J MOSES:: You said you went over the bridge and you made a U-turn and came back and the three of you, yourself, Chris and this other person, you were still in the kombi and amongst the three of you, you had three AK47’s in the kombi.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: And you were now as you were approaching the scene or the place where you had dropped your members of the group, you heard an explosion.

MR J MBANE:: It was on my way back after the U-turn, when I was approaching the spot where I had dropped them, I heard the explosion that sounded like a hand grenade and then I jumped.

JUDGE MILLER:: Sorry, what do you mean you jumped. Did you jump while you were in the vehicle, or did you jump out of the vehicle? What precisely did you mean you jumped...

MR J MBANE:: I hit the pavement and I jumped out of the car. I opened the door and I jumped out of the car, out of the kombi.

ADV J MOSES:: Can you recall after you had jumped out of the kombi that has now hit the kerb, what happened to the other two persons who were with you in the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I am not sure but I think Rasta was sitting next to the door. After jumping out of the car, I left my AK47 in the kombi. I jumped out of the car, I went behind the car. We were exchanging fire. I heard someone pulling this other gentleman out of the car.

I was not far from the car, when I saw the people pulling this gentleman out of the car. I heard a gunshot inside the kombi. Bellingan pulled this gentleman and the gentleman fell, fell down, and he shot him. Although he was saying, "Don’t shoot this person because he is working with us", that’s when I ran away.

ADV J MOSES:: I don’t know whether I did not follow the interpreter that clearly or whether that was a direct translation Mr Mbane. You were explaining that Mr Bellingan had a person in front of him on the ground, and you were explaining as I could gather here indicating a shooting movement, but at the same time you said that Bellingan said don’t shoot this person, in Afrikaans.

Do you know to whom Bellingan referred when he uttered those words? "Moenie die persoon skiet nie", don’t shoot that person.

MR J MBANE:: There were some people around. A lot of people. He was talking to some of them. After having given that instruction, there was a cease fire.

CHAIRPERSON:: But who was the person that he said should not be shot?

MR J MBANE:: It was myself. I was not supposed to be shot, according to him.

ADV J MOSES:: You were also referring to a person which was dragged out of this vehicle and...by Mr Bellingan. What exactly did you observe? What was happening there Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: He opened and then I heard a shot ringing in the car. As to whether he had already shot him when he pulled him out, that I did not see. But what I saw is when he shot him when he was on the ground, lying on his side.

But I heard a shot ringing in the car and he dragged this man out of the car.

ADV J MOSES:: And that "he" that you are referring to, as translated by the interpreter, that is Mr Bellingan that you are referring to?

MR J MBANE:: I am referring to him, Mr Bellingan.

ADV J MOSES:: Was that the only thing that you observed before you ran away, before you took flight Mr Mbane, or is there anything else which you observed there in that vicinity.

MR J MBANE:: No, that is the only thing I saw.

And that is the only thing that I saw, at close range.

ADV J MOSES:: And you said thereafter that you ran away and you were assisted by people who were living in that vicinity.

MR J MBANE:: That is so, Sir.

ADV J MOSES:: And after you caught a bus, you made contact with your other people, your commander again at Koeberg. Did I understand you correct?

MR J MBANE:: I started in Guguletu wherefrom I proceeded to Khayelitsha, and from thereon they dropped me off at the bus terminus, where I took a bus because I realised I had to go - everything was out of proportion.

ADV J MOSES:: Did you ascertain, just before I conclude my section of the examination in chief, did you...were you informed or do you know how many people were killed or died there as a result of that...the shooting that took place at that specific intersection or place in Guguletu, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was told.

ADV J MOSES:: And what were you told?

MR J MBANE:: I was told that the whole seven died.

ADV J MOSES:: Meaning except yourself and Eric, the group who was with you, everyone?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, the whole group.

ADV J MOSES:: It is also mentioned here in paragraph 35 that you and Eric received a reward after that incident had taken place.

Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes.

ADV J MOSES:: You were rewarded R7000.00 each?

MR J MBANE:: That is correct. Mbelo received R1000.00.

ADV J MOSES:: Is there anything that you would like to add for the benefit of the Committee? To your explanation of what has happened on that specific day of the incident, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: The only thing I can say is that I took other people’s children and I trained them and led them to their death.

That I am not happy about. Because thereafter, I divorced my wife because of this incident. I parted with my wife and children. This could have been avoided. They could not have been shot, because they knew where these people were staying. They had staged a fly-over and I was dressed in a white cap and they circled the place. And these boys wanted to shoot at them. They knew where these people were residing. They had enough chance to come and arrest us and avoid all this.

They flew over the area for quite a long time, many a time. Thus, I say that this could have been avoided. It is just that they had decided that they were going to kill them. They had just told themselves that these people had to be killed.

Thus I say that all this would have been avoided and these children would have been alive today.

ADV J MOSES:: Mr Chairman, I thank you and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:: We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning. I am sorry I didn’t ask Counsel this morning what time they would suggest would be a convenient time.

MR HUGO:: My Lord, as on previous occasions I have indicated to your Lordship that 9:30, 9 ‘o clock gives us a problem coming in from where we are staying, as well as Mr de Kock, the Cape traffic is not as easy to deal with as the traffic in Durban for example.

MR CHAIRPERSON:: The problems surrounding Mr de Kock being here on time are perhaps more important than for the rest of us, so we’ll make it 9:30. Does that suit? Nine thirty tomorrow morning.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION 04.02.98 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Are we ready to commence with cross-examination?

MR BOOYENS: I am Mr Chairman. Perhaps just one thing, I am not sure about the sequence it’s subject to what the Commission says, but it’s perhaps at this stage, seeing that he was in fact, my learned friend Ms Patel put quite a lot of, or she obviously had a long interview with the witness also before she cross-examined, I don’t know whether as a matter of sequence because otherwise I don’t want to end up in a situation where she now put certain things to him where I have then got to apply and things get even more disorganised. Perhaps it might be more appropriate if she starts.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your view Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Learned Chairperson I think it would be more convenient if the applicants went because a lot of what I had covered with the witness was indeed covered in his evidence-in-chief, so I would prefer that the applicants proceed.

MR BOOYENS: I don’t mind Mr Chairman.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, if we can first just briefly refer to your background. Would I be correct if I summarised it thus - that you were an enthusiastic and very loyal supporter of the ANC in the days when you went to Rhodesia and you went for training in various different countries. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: And in fact at the stage of your arrest in Kimberly you were as enthusiastic a supporter of the ANC. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, how long after your arrest in Kimberly did you start giving information to the Security Forces?

MR J MBANE:: It took me two to three days.

MR BOOYENS:: And then you started, without holding anything back, you started giving information to the Security Forces?

MR J MBANE:: I told them everything that I knew.

MR BOOYENS:: So after, let’s say give it the maximum, after three days, you opened up to the Security Forces and you changed...and you gave them all the information they needed. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: So after two to three days, there was no need for any duress, anything of that nature anymore. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s not correct. I was still a member of the ANC, although I did such things.

MR BOOYENS:: I think we’re at cross purposes. You said you opened up after two to three days and told them everything they wanted. So after two to three days, there was no need by the Security Forces to exercise any duress upon you anymore? You were voluntary speaking?

MR J MBANE:: They were torturing me, they were choking me, they were intimidating me. Each and every method that they were using was applied on me.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, but leaving aside those methods, I haven’t got any instructions on those, because I don’t know who the people were, but after two or three days of torture, you started speaking. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them everything.

CHAIRPERSON:: If you told them everything you knew, so they would have been sitting listening to you and not needing to torture you anymore because you were telling them all you knew. That’s what you’re being asked.

Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes they tortured me for two or three days, then I told them the truth. That’s what they wanted.

After that three days, they didn’t torture me again.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, yes, that’s what I am getting at. And so after that three days, it was not necessary to threaten you anymore, anything of that...you had basically made a clean breast of everything you knew and told them everything they wanted to know and even some things that you obviously volunteered to them, not so?

MR J MBANE:: I told them what they wanted only. I didn’t tell them about things that they didn’t ask.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, but the questions obviously would have been broad and couldn’t have know exactly who was in a camp with you, for example. They would ask who were in the camp with you and you would tell them, give them names or MK names, or identify photographs. You didn’t hold anything back?

MR J MBANE:: I only answered the questions that they were asking. I didn’t tell them anything that they didn’t ask.

MR BOOYENS:: So, did you hold certain things back?

MR J MBANE:: Yes there were some things that I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS:: And did you, throughout your career, never tell them about that information?

MR J MBANE:: Even now, they don’t know some of the things.

MR BOOYENS:: And those things that you held back are important things?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they are important.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, you had been a member of the, if I say a member of the South African Police, I use it in the broad sense of the word, I am talking about as an Askari or a collaborator of the police for how many years?

MR J MBANE:: I started in 1984 until 1992.

MR BOOYENS:: Eight years. And throughout those eight years you never told the South African Police that you were working for, everything and you withheld certain important information from them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t tell them everything.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not? You had important information, why didn’t you tell them about it?

MR J MBANE:: The reason was I was loyal to them, and our working relations were good and I told myself that I won’t have to tell them again, because they can change the situation totally.

MR BOOYENS:: Well you had information that you said would have been important to the police, not so? That would have improved the working relationship if you in fact opened up and told them everything you knew, volunteered it.

MR J MBANE:: I want to say Mr Chairperson, in that situation they were only torturing people, so I realised that if I can tell them, they are going to torture me again, because once before they have broken my jaw...

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, are you seriously suggesting that if after six years you went to Mr de Kock and you say, you know when I was trained in Russia XYZ or when I was in Zambia XYZ happened, that they would torture you then.

Is that what you are suggesting? I just want to make sure we understand each other.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s what I am saying Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, I see. So because you were afraid after six years of loyal service to the police, you pulled the trigger a number of times on their behalf, that you would still be tortured and treated badly by them if you came out with additional information which was important to the police?

MR J MBANE:: I would like to clarify this to the Commission. This is how we were working. If you can give me permission to clarify this.

MR BOOYENS:: As long as it’s an answer to my question, I think you can carry on. Subject to what the Chairman says.

MR J MBANE:: In that place we were working like prisoners of war. They were torturing us on a daily basis. They would take us to the shooting range and pretend that they were going to shoot us. That is the manner in which we were being treated. We were not working like an ordinary policeman.

So if I would reveal such things, I would be in trouble. They would say that it means that I am also working as a double agent for the ANC and the police. That is the reason why I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS:: Well perhaps I should ask you this: did you still have, notwithstanding the fact that you were a member of Vlakplaas, did you still feel a certain loyalty to the ANC?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I am still loyal to the ANC.

MR BOOYENS:: I am talking about not now. I am talking about the eight years you were at Vlakplaas. Were you still loyal to the ANC?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was still loyal to the ANC because I wasn’t the cause of that situation. They forced me to collaborate with them.

MR BOOYENS:: So, in fact you were an extremely involuntary member of Vlakplaas. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I can say I was also working for Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS:: No, I am talking about your loyalty. You were there under duress. You didn’t want to be there because you were really loyal to the ANC but because of duress, you were working at Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: And if it wasn’t for the duress, you would never have worked at Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE:: I wouldn’t work for Vlakplaas, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: In fact, would I be correct if I said you hated working at Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t like that kind of work.

MR BOOYENS:: And did you feel the things that you were forced to do at Vlakplaas were wrong? You were in fact fighting against the very people you were loyal to.

MR J MBANE:: I could see that all those things were not right.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, and you were in fact being forced to fight the people that you were loyal to?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: So you were really an ANC member forced into, figuratively speaking, the uniform of the enemy, and fighting for the enemy.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: During this eight years, did you supply any information to the ANC? Or to the UDF about the activities of Vlakplaas?

MR J MBANE:: No, there’s nothing that I told the ANC about.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you ever warn or attempt to warn when you learnt about operation where members of the ANC’s life would be endangered? Did you ever attempt to warn them about that, bearing in mind your loyalties?

MR J MBANE:: No I never did.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: If I would try such a thing, we were actually guarding each other against such things of leaking information. We would be eight in a kombi, each and every one of us assigned to keep an eye on a certain person, so if I would do such a thing, I would be in trouble.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, let’s just take the operation here at Guguletu. Here you were...you couldn’t have been in Eric Maluleka’s company all the time, because you told us that he didn’t have a driver’s licence. Right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you had opportunities to warn these people if you wanted to. Not so? You were alone with them.

MR J MBANE:: Most of the time I was with Eric Maluleka. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would...

CHAIRPERSON:: Are you seriously suggesting that you were in Eric Maluleka’s presence all the time, 24 hours a day?

MR J MBANE:: I was with Eric Maluleka 24 hours a day. We would only part when I was going to report to Bellingan and Liebenberg. I would leave Eric behind.

MR BOOYENS:: If you had an opportunity to warn these people that they were about to be led into an ambush, would you have done so?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I would warn them, knowing very well that I am also putting my life in danger.

MR BOOYENS:: Notwithstanding the fact that your own life was in danger, you would warn them, is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: I wouldn’t warn them because I would be in trouble, because the operation was already going on.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but unless I misunderstood you or there was something wrong with the interpretation, the question just before this that came through my...the answer that came was that you would have warned them. My Lord, that’s my recollection, I may be wrong but....

MR J MBANE:: If I had a chance to warn them, I would do so.

MR BOOYENS:: Because, obviously you were loyal to the ANC, you were disloyal to Vlakplaas because you didn’t like what Vlakplaas was doing and you felt that this operation was wrong - this ambush. That is why you would have warned them, right?

MR J MBANE:: I knew that all the things we were doing there at Vlakplaas were not right, because we were killing our brothers.

If I had an option, I would warn these people, if I had an opportunity to do so.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, I am going to suggest to you that on any of the occasions, if you really wanted to warn them, that you left Maluleka alone and left with the motor vehicle to go and report to your superiors in the police force, you could have warned these people. You could have sent Maluleka on an errand, you could have done a variety of things if you wanted to warn these people.

What you are telling this Commission now is simply not true.

MR J MBANE:: I would I dump Eric Maluleka if I wanted to warn these people? How would I do that?

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, you needed two or three minutes to say to one of them: "Don’t come tomorrow morning, the police know about this". Or you could have simply slipped out to them the information that the police were going to ambush them, that they must postpone the operation if you were really given...had one bit of concern for these people as you are now claiming to have had.

MR J MBANE:: If I had that type of an opportunity, I would do that.

Unfortunately I didn’t get the opportunity to warn them.

MR BOOYENS:: You could have called one of them aside and in less than thirty seconds, have warned him. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: What would happen to my life...what would happen to my safety if I would do such a thing?

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, but earlier on, your safety wasn’t such a serious concern, it was just the practical impossibility to warn them that worried you. So now the main reason is your own safety: you were prepared to let them die for your own safety. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: I would like to...if you could please give me permission to clarify this point again.

If you are given a mission, you’ve got to fulfil that mission, you’ve got to do as instructed. If it fails, you are in danger, if the mission fails I would be in danger. Isn’t that so?

MR BOOYENS:: No, you tell us. I was never a member of Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE:: I was there. That’s why I am telling you that my life would be in danger.

MR BOOYENS:: So to return to my question: the fact that you didn’t warn them was simply because you valued your own skin more than warning these people who were going to be killed. That is really the bottom line of your answer.

MR J MBANE:: It was just the same. Life is the same.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, you came down to Cape Town...in January. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Just dealing with your background slightly further before that, you are an experienced witness. Is that correct? You have testified in a number of cases?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: You testified against Mr Patrick Lekota in the Delmas trial. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That is so.

MR BOOYENS:: You testified in Natal in the trial of Tuso Tshika and four others, is that correct? As Mr X?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember, but I have attended a number of trials, but I won’t remember all the places.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes. But you have testified many times as Mr X. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That is so.

MR BOOYENS:: You have testified against your erstwhile Comrades, and gave testimony to the best of your ability to get them into jail for as long as possible. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That is so.

MR BOOYENS:: Tried never to make any mistakes.

MR J MBANE:: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Did it worry you to testify against your erstwhile Comrades?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it worried me but I didn’t have a choice.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, you have told us that. So, Mr Mbane, you knew the importance of telling the investigators when you made your statements, everything making full and comprehensive statements. Is that correct?

When you start preparing for a trial, right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And obviously you knew the importance thereof to make sure that your statement that would go the Prosecutor in those trials that you testified, would be comprehensive, full and free of mistakes to make sure that they lead your evidence the correct way. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: And there must have been occasions, that when the people were busy, the police were busy taking your statement, for example in Mr Lekota’s trial, or in any of the other many trials that you testified where they would write the statement, you would check it and you would find mistakes, and the mistakes would be rectified. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you were fully aware all along that it is very important what you say in your witness statement? That right?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: When in January did you come down to Cape Town?

MR J MBANE:: It was at the beginning of January.

MR BOOYENS:: Early January, in other words.

MR J MBANE:: Yes.

MR BOOYENS:: And is it correct that at first an effort was made to infiltrate one of the policemen with you, the second applicant in this matter, but that didn’t succeed.

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: When he came back, did he report anything of the nature of this group of people? Why he couldn’t succeed.

MR J MBANE:: The only thing that he told me is that the people had suspected him because he didn’t have any experience, he didn’t have any knowledge about the ANC.

MR BOOYENS:: Did he tell you they were dangerous, he was scared of them?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he told me that’s why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS:: He was scared for his life. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That is so. That is why he ran away.

MR BOOYENS:: And then you and Eric Maluleka were instructed to try and infiltrate. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Because you had a proper legend, you in fact were trained outside the country. The only thing that wasn’t true is that you were in fact working for the South African Police. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR BOOYENS:: Well, when you infiltrated, you were going to tell them that you had been trained outside the country, all those things were true. You were trained outside the country, the lie was that you were not now going in as a supporter of the organisation, but in fact to spy on them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that is true.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, as you went in, what exactly were your instructions. What were you going to do?

MR J MBANE:: The instruction that was given to me was that I was told that these people were destabilising here in Cape Town and they have trained. So we had to infiltrate them and see how much ammunition did they have.

MR BOOYENS:: So this...so was there a group in existence, according to your information?

MR J MBANE:: Can you please repeat the question?

MR BOOYENS:: What you were supposed to infiltrate, was there a group in existence, a certain group of people that were supposed to be destabilising and to have been trained and so on. Is that right?

MR BOOYENS:: A group, as the term was used in those days, a group of terrorists or subversives or whatever you were supposed to call them. Was that what you were supposed to infiltrate?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now what other information did you have about the group? How big was it?

MR J MBANE:: There were four people.

MR BOOYENS:: Was that information that you went in with - that there were four of them?

MR J MBANE:: That’s the information that I had.

MR BOOYENS:: Where did that information emanate from?

MR J MBANE:: I got that information in Koeberg.

MR BOOYENS:: From who?

MR J MBANE:: It was Liebenberg who was giving us instructions because he is originally from Cape Town, and Bellingan was also there.

MR BOOYENS:: So Mr Liebenberg said to you there’s a group of four people who have been trained, who are destabilising the situation. You must infiltrate that group and find out what you can about them. Right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: That was the sum total of your instructions?

MR J MBANE:: That was the instructions.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you have names?

MR J MBANE:: They had nicknames, I can’t remember their names. Others were called Mandela, their photos were shown to us.

MR BOOYENS:: Were they MK names...or if you say nicknames.

MR J MBANE:: Maybe it was their pseudonyms.

MR BOOYENS:: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON:: Were you shown photos of all four of these people?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, each and every photo had a name behind.

CHAIRPERSON:: Was this by Captain Liebenberg? He had photos of these people and he knew their names.

MR J MBANE:: We were given photos and we were instructed to identify them. These photos had their names at the back. Liebenberg gave us those photos.

CHAIRPERSON:: Was that Captain Liebenberg?

MR J MBANE:: He was still a Lieutenant at the time.

MR BOOYENS:: And did he give you addresses as well?

MR J MBANE:: He just gave us the name of the place where they were and he told us what to do.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, perhaps we can just get more clarity than just a place. Is that a place for example in a section, or they were gathering at a certain shop or at a certain house. What do you mean with the word place?

MR J MBANE:: They said to us that we must go and ask the chief in that area, because we must first consult the chief and ask permission. The chief would take us to those people.

MR BOOYENS:: That’s now Chief Nyangeni?

MR J MBANE:: That’s so.

MR BOOYENS:: So, you went to the Chief?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I went to him.

MR BOOYENS:: And you introduced yourself as a returned exile?

MR J MBANE:: That’s so.

MR BOOYENS:: And you said to the Chief that you had to make contact with these four people?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Giving their names?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And how was contact then established?

MR J MBANE:: He took us to another house where he said we would sleep there and the following day these people came and that’s where we introduced ourselves to them.

MR BOOYENS:: All four of them came?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, your primary task was to obtain information about these people, right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you started establishing as much about them as you could, as soon as possible?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, but it took me some time to exactly know what kind of people they were.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, no I accept that.

You found out pretty quickly that they were completely untrained.

MR J MBANE:: I said it took me some time to know that they were untrained. I might be two or three days or so.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, well that’s in the intelligence gathering community, that’s not a long time. Two or three days and you knew these people were completely untrained, right? So, these people certainly didn’t pose a threat? Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: And in fact, it appeared that the information about these four men was wrong. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Which people are you referring to? Who was saying these things about them?

MR BOOYENS:: Well, you told us that Liebenberg gave you information that they were trained, they were posing a threat, they were destabilising the situation and so on and you established within three or four days that that information was wrong. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: So you were really dealing with four completely innocent people? Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Untrained, not dangerous, what were they really? If anything, were they just ordinary youths from the township, you could have picked any four.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you could have picked any four youths from that township and they would have been the same as these four men. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct. That’s what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON:: About what age were they? You’ve been referring to them as youths...how old were they?

MR J MBANE:: At that time they might be in the age group of 18 or 20 - in their late teens.

MR BOOYENS:: I think at my age one is justified in referring to them as youths, my Lord.

So four basically random youths, completely innocent, not posing a threat to anybody, and you never established that they were involved in any illegal activities, threatening the security of the State. Is that correct? In those early days. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: They were harmless, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes. Completely harmless, they posed no threat whatsoever to anybody. Not even to the then government of the country. They posed no threat. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, Mr Mbane, they were so inexperienced, that it would have been no problem for you to...and it had never been a problem for you...to report back to your handlers, is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I would like to respond to your question properly.

On the second or third day whilst we were there, this Chief Yamile came to us and said to me some boy from exile has a problem with his AK47. And then I told him he must bring this man to me and when he got there he is on good terms with this group. He came with his AK47 rifle and we realised that it was not automatic, but only shooting single shots. We fixed this for him and when we asked him about his background, he said that he was locally trained and he was in good terms with these boys, and thereafter I went back to my commanders to report about this incident of this AK that we repaired, and the boy concerned, and this is where the whole thing started.

I hope you understand clearly what I am trying to say.

MR BOOYENS:: When you established that these people were completely innocent and no threat to anybody, did you report that to Liebenberg?

MR J MBANE:: As I said, I stayed two to three days with these people until Rasta came, bringing his rifle and only thereafter I reported back to say that there is somebody who brought an AK47 rifle.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you report that these other four boys were harmless youngsters from the township who had no training?

MR J MBANE:: I reported this after the arrival of the young man with the AK47 rifle.

MS KHAMPEPE:: But did you advise Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan that the youngsters were harmless and were not trained and did not have any weapons?

MR J MBANE:: I reported after the arrival of this gentleman with the AK47, that was my first report to my commanders your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON:: Will you answer the question !

MS KHAMPEPE:: What was the content of your report?

MR J MBANE:: I told them about the AK47 and the other four haven’t been trained, but this one with the AK47 has been locally trained and he is in possession of it.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you tell them that the other four had no weapons?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS:: And did you also tell them, look these other four people that you sent me in to make contact with are completely harmless, they are not a threat to anybody?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS:: You told them that the information that these people were destabilising the situation was, must be completely wrong.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS:: And that was told to Mr Bellingan as well?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told him because he was my commander.

MR BOOYENS:: When is the first time that you have mentioned that fact that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were completely harmless?

MR J MBANE:: I think I was already four days in that area, I reported after four days or so.

MR BOOYENS:: The question is: when did you tell anybody connected to this Commission for the first time that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were harmless, untrained and the information was completely wrong. Is this the first time that you are telling the Commission about this now, or have you told somebody before?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, there is somebody I told at an earlier day.

MR BOOYENS:: Who did you tell?

MR J MBANE:: I told John, Bule and Fani. I don’t know their surnames.

MR BOOYENS:: Are they people attached to the Truth Commission?

MR J MBANE:: No, not in this branch. They came to my house and they took me to Johannesburg.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, are you talking about the fact that you - are those the people who you made your statement to in Johannesburg?

MS KHAMPEPE:: Can I, Mr Booyens, for the sake of completeness, just find out from Mr Mbane. The report that you are referring to, that you made to Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan, was this the telephonic report that you refer to in your evidence-in-chief yesterday?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON:: But you said you reported to both of them. How did you do that telephonically? Didn’t you meet them?

MR J MBANE:: I phoned them firstly, and then they would arrange a meeting place and then I met them at Sea Point or here in the Parade Shopping Centre, and that’s when I reported to them.

That is when I met them face to face, then I would report to them.

ADV MOTATA:: Would it be the same day, say you make a telephone call, did you on the same day meet them wherever you met them? After you had made the telephone call?

MR J MBANE:: On the same day, we met on the same day.

MR BOOYENS:: And on that same day, in any event, that is when you told Liebenberg and Bellingan about the fact that they were completely on the wrong track with these four people, they were nobodies. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And the fact that you told Bellingan and Liebenberg that, you reported to the investigators from the Truth Commission in Johannesburg, the people who took your statement.

Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I did so.

MR BOOYENS:: Where does that appear in your statement?

MR J MBANE:: That’s what I realise, it’s been omitted.

MR BOOYENS:: But we did a little exercise a little earlier, about this experience with this Mr X, who knew the importance of witnesses’ statements. How did that happen?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know how this happened.

MR BOOYENS:: By the way, where in this statement do you mention Bellingan’s name? There’s is one mispelled version in connection with the operation in Lesotho. It’s the only one I can remember.

MR J MBANE:: Are you saying he’s not appearing anywhere in the Cape Town operation?

MR BOOYENS:: I am saying his mispelled name appears only in one paragraph in this whole 59 paragraphs that I have got. And I will tell you now where that is.

Bellingan’s name appears nowhere in connection with the Cape Town operation at any stage. You mention Liebenberg, you mention Coetzer, you mention a few other characters but you never mentioned Bellingan’s name once. Why not?

CHAIRPERSON:: I think when you say a few others - you mentioned De Kock as being there with Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS:: And the paragraph I am referring to my Lord, paragraph 46, third line. There’s a Bellinger, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that it must be Bellingan.

So Mr Mbane, tell us why is Mr Bellingan’s name never in your witness statement?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t have knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh please! You signed the statement, it was sworn. Right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: You are an experienced witness. Right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: You know the importance of witness statements. Right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: You confirmed the correctness of the statement before you took the oath.

MR J MBANE:: I showed them several mistakes that appear on it.

MR BOOYENS:: So, are you seriously suggesting that when you told these Truth Commission investigators that, look there are several mistakes I have mentioned Bellingan so many times and you haven’t put his name in once, they didn’t rectify it? Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them.

CHAIRPERSON:: Are you saying that you told them that you mentioned Bellingan’s name repeatedly and that they had not put it in the statement?

MR J MBANE:: Your Honour, these people took me to Johannesburg and I spent a day with them writing the statement and taking down. And we had a dispute about the statement and I came down to Cape Town and made another statement under oath.

I am surprised now when I am being presented with this statement that I gave in Johannesburg, because the statement that I made under oath was on the 17th September here in Cape Town and I have it here with me in my possession. I don’t know exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON:: So you have it with you?

MR J MBANE:: Yes I have it with me.

MR BOOYENS:: That’s news to me, my Lord. We have been specifically told that this is the only statement that’s available, and I would certainly like to see that statement. I want to know who it was made to, I want to know why it was deliberately kept from us, because if it was made by the Truth Commission, I would like to have somebody explain to the Commission why it was then deliberately kept away from us. Because there can be no other explanation.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Mbane is that a statement that was made by one of the statement takers in Johannesburg?

MR J MBANE:: The person who signed this statement...the Commissioner of Oaths is Jasmine America and it was taken by Mr Zenzile Khoisan. Thus I am surprised why this statement was not given in because I made it here in Cape Town and I still have it in my possession, the copy thereof.

MS KHAMPEPE:: When was that statement taken from you?

MR J MBANE:: It was on the 17th November 1997.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Here in Cape Town?

MR J MBANE:: Yes that’s correct.

MS KHAMPEPE:: It was after you had attested to the document we are using?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: With respect, Ms Khampepe, I think he said that statement was made on 17 September, I think there may be a misunderstanding. The statement to Mr Khoisan was apparently made on the 17th September, so that statement was made even before he testified and...

JUDGE MILLER:: Perhaps if we could get clarification on this. Mr Mbane, you say that you made a statement to Mr Khoisan. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

JUDGE MILLER:: When did you make that statement?

MR J MBANE:: I made it on the 17th November 1997 when I realised that there were some irregularities and mistakes on the previous statement.

JUDGE MILLER:: Was that statement that you made on 17th November reduced to writing and was it made in the form of an affidavit or not?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, it was reduced to writing.

JUDGE MILLER:: Was it sworn to as an affidavit or not?

MR J MBANE:: It was under oath.

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, members of the Committee, I must apologise. I have not received proper instructions with regard to this. I have been confronted while my client was already under oath with a statement which purported to be another, with a heading of Affidavit of Xola Frank Mbane. Now there seemed to be initials on the pages. There is no signature above the name on the last page thereof, there is no signature above the name of Xola Frank Mbane, and my problem was that I, since my client was already under oath and examination in chief had already, was already finished, I could not take any proper instructions because I was not aware whether this in fact, whether it amounts to an affidavit, what the statement is and where did it come from.

I was just briefly informed while he was still under oath that it has been received by Mr Zenzile Khoisan. I am in the precarious situation now that I haven’t received full instructions and my client is under cross examination and it would be difficult to have a consultation with him at this point in time, but I am also at pains to concede that that might facilitate, if a consultation would be allowed, it might facilitate the whole process of clearing up the existence and the status of the statement which has now surfaced.

CHAIRPERSON:: I just want to be quite clear about this. You consulted with your client about statements he had made. There were two, and are you telling us that he did not once mention to you that he had in his possession a statement that he had made on 17th November of last year, that he never told you about that?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, the only statements which I knew about was the incompleted statement. I was not aware of this.

CHAIRPERSON:: And he’s just produced it this morning.

ADV J MOSES:: He has produced it since he has received it from Mr Zenzile.

CHAIRPERSON:: Does he say that he received this morning?

ADV J MOSES:: That’s right.

CHAIRPERSON:: He got it from who?

MS KHAMPEPE:: Ms Patel, were you aware that Mr Mbane had made a statement to one of the investigating officers as late as November last year?

MS R PATEL:: If I may place on record, I know that before I had consulted with Mr Mbane, he had spoken to Mr Khoisan before then. But regarding the statement, I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did Mr Khoisan never tell you he had taken this statement, and that he had a copy of it?

MS R PATEL:: At some stage, he had said that there was a copy of a statement. I requested that and unfortunately it was never handed to me.

CHAIRPERSON:: But it was handed to the witness? Well, some time after yesterday.

MS R PATEL:: So it appears. I haven’t seen it.

JUDGE MILLER:: Would there be any objections from any of you if Mr Moses were given an opportunity to take instructions from his client on this aspect alone? On the aspect of this statement of the 17th at this stage. I know Mr Moses’ problem is that his client is under cross examination and it is not normally practice to communicate with your client when he is being cross examined, but this is a new issue that has risen and it doesn’t in any way affect the actual merits of the incident. Would you have any objection?

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, my Lord, and with that I want to make it clear: no reflection on my learned friend whatsoever. But it frequently happens during cross examination that new issues arise that people haven’t mentioned in statements. That is not a proper case to make an exception to the Bar rule that you are not supposed to consult with your client.

I would most certainly have an objection. Once again I want to place it on record that I am not suggesting my learned friend would do anything improper, or that my learned friend was involved in anything improper, but there is no personal reflection on him, but I think it will be improper for him at this stage to consult, and I would certainly have an objection.

CHAIRPERSON:: Mr Moses have you any objection to that statement being returned to Mr Khoisan and copies being made available for everybody?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, I can have no objection. My only problem and I must concede to the point made by my colleague on behalf of the first applicant.

The only problem with this, it is a statement, the status whereof is obviously questionable. It isn’t signed, and I have not had the opportunity to peruse it.

CHAIRPERSON:: I understood your client to have said he swore to it.

ADV J MOSES:: That is my predicament, my Lord, because I can tell you nothing.

CHAIRPERSON:: But do you have any objection to it being returned and copies made for everyone?

ADV J MOSES:: It has now come to the fore, my Lord. It will have to be produced.

CHAIRPERSON:: Right, we will adjourn to get the statement made available. I don’t think there’s any point in continuing to cross examine on a statement made a year earlier, if there is a later statement, and I think enquiries should be made as to just what happened here.

MR BOOYENS:: May we see your Lordship in chambers then as soon as we...

CHAIRPERSON:: Yes.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON:: Gentlemen, have you all now been given copies of this affidavit?

MR BOOYENS:: I have now been given a copy of the additional affidavit, my Lord. Obviously it has been given to me about five minutes back, but in order not to waste any further time, I would prefer to carry on with cross examination.

I will do the necessary comparisons with the other statement during the long adjournment, but I think it’s advisable. We have wasted enough time in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON:: If anyone wants to see it, I have the original signed.

MR BOOYENS:: I accept that I have been given a true copy of the original, my Lord.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: (cont)

Mr Mbane, this further statement that you say you made on 17th November, how did it happen that you made this statement? What happened? Tell us about that please.

MR J MBANE:: What made me to make this statement is because the person who was enquiring was interested solely on the Guguletu matter, thus I gave a statement.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, when you made your previous statement, you also referred fairly at length to the Guguletu matter, not so. I’m talking about the statement that you made in Johannesburg on the 21st August 1996.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And, it was your intention at that stage to give as full details as possible in that statement. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: The statement takers, if you look clearly on this statement you can see that there was a communication breakdown because they were talking in Tsetswana and I was Xhosa speaking and the treatment that they gave me was not appropriate, so there was disagreement all the time between us, myself and the statement takers.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, you speak fairly good English, because I have noticed a few times you have actually answered questions before they were translated for you. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I do, I try.

MR BOOYENS:: And when this statement was taken, did you read it? I am talking about the Johannesburg statement.

MR J MBANE:: I read it, but not all of it, because I had my own things to do. I was in a hurry.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, what did you read and what didn’t you read?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t read the whole statement.

But the second one, I read it thoroughly and I told them that there were some wrong things that appeared on it, and there was a confusion about people’s names as well.

MR BOOYENS:: I’m talking about the first one.

CHAIRPERSON:: What do you mean by the second one?

MR J MBANE:: In Gauteng, there were two statements that were taken down.

MR BOOYENS:: Just look at this statement...is this...where is that second Gauteng statement? Have you got that in your possession?

MR J MBANE:: No, I don’t have it with me.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, why didn’t you inform your Counsel, because they led you from a statement which we are now told is the wrong statement, why didn’t you tell your Counsel, or Ms Berlin that this statement is wrong, I cannot testify from it. There’s another statement.

MR J MBANE:: This statement I made it here in Cape Town and I thought about it only this morning and I enquired about and that is when it was handed to me. The copy thereof.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but I understood you to say in a question to the Honourable Chairman that you made two statements in Gauteng.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now that second statement is missing. Or is the second statement the one from which you have been giving evidence?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you have been giving evidence from the second statement, when Ms Berlin led your evidence from your statement, this is the second Gauteng statement, the correct one?

MR J MBANE:: She was reading from the second one.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, that’s the one I have in my possession and the one everyone else seems to have in their possession. That was the correct statement in other words. Because if it was the wrong statement, you would have informed your legal representatives that this is the incorrect statement, don’t lead my evidence on it. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, but I don’t know what’s incorrect in it, I am not sure.

MR BOOYENS:: Please Mr Mbane, I have been told by your Counsel that you people consulted till 2 ‘o clock at night and he even asked the Commission for extra time. Your Counsel is obviously a very responsible man and if you informed him - there were things wrong and those were pointed out, some names. You recall that? Such as there’s sometimes a wrong reference to Eric Maluleka etc., and the question of whether it was your first operation and you said it was your first big operation. Right?

MR J MBANE:: If you can notice on his statement there are some things that I scratched out, that I indicated were wrong.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, and you were led about that, we all heard about that. What I want to know from you is apart from those mistakes that were rectified in your evidence in chief, you did not deem it necessary to point out to them that there were other things, and additional information. Is that right?

Why not?

MR J MBANE:: That never came to my mind.

MR BOOYENS:: But you are an experienced witness, you gave evidence in security cases on a number of occasions where you were probably cross examined by some of the best Advocates in this country. Why didn’t it come to your mind. You are experienced, you’re not a rookie in the witness box.

MR J MBANE:: Well, it happened and I don’t know how I would rectify that. It happened, it can be undone...

MR BOOYENS:: No, you are trying to undo it. What I still want to know from you is why was Mr Bellingan’s name not mentioned with the one exception that I have pointed out to you, which has got nothing to do with Guguletu, why was Mr Bellingan’s name never mentioned in connection with Guguletu in your written statement made in Johannesburg?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know but the bottom line is that I was with Belletjies here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS:: That’s not the answer to my question. I can understand if you mentioned him on one occasion and they left the name out. That can happen, an error can happen, but it’s not mentioned once, and on what you tell us now every time you spoke to both him and Liebenberg. Have you got any explanation you can offer for that?

MR J MBANE:: There is no explanation to that, but the bottom line is that I was with Belletjies in the Cape Town operation.

MR BOOYENS:: And the very important aspect of your evidence, that you informed Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people were a bunch of, a group of innocent youths, is contained neither in your - well let’s call it the second Johannesburg statement, or in the Cape Town statement. Why not?

MR J MBANE:: That I don’t know. But it appears on the Cape Town statement.

MR BOOYENS:: It does not. Show it to me please. You’ve got it in front of you. Like I said, I read through it very quickly, I’m quite happy to accept that I may make a mistake.

MR J MBANE:: It appears on paragraph number 7.

MR BOOYENS:: No. Paragraph 7 says only one was trained, but I am talking about you told us that after you met with this group you specifically went back and reported that this four are completely innocent, they don’t pose a threat to anybody, you reported that specifically to Bellingan and Liebenberg. Where is that in this statement. It’s not here. Why not?

MR J MBANE:: I told them these people are not trained and there’s only one who has been trained. I spoke to Belletjies and Liebenberg about this.

MR BOOYENS:: Do you understand the question? Well then answer it.

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, I need to intervene here.

I don’t think that the question is totally fair. The witness has attempted an answer and obviously the witness cannot force Counsel to accept that answer, what I have only received the statement also now and if one takes that paragraph 7 which has been referred to in context, then it seems if that is read with paragraph 9, my Lord, then that is certainly what the witness is trying to explain. If Counsel is not happy with the answer, certainly it cannot be expected of the witness to answer what Counsel wants him to answer.

In paragraph 9 mention is made that:

"Throughout this whole process I was reporting to Liebenberg and Sgt Bellingan. Together we strategised about how to deal with these Comrades."

MR BOOYENS:: I’ll ask the question in another way - maybe we can cross that bridge then.

One of the most important aspects of this whole operation was that you reported to Bellingan and to Liebenberg that these...four of these people were innocent township youths that were not posing a threat to anybody. That was very, very important. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: In fact, because what you are really trying to say to us is that knowing full well they were dealing with innocents, these people deliberately set these innocent youths up with the purpose of killing them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s what I said.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, who assisted you in this Cape Town statement, this November statement?

MR J MBANE:: Nobody assisted me.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, did you make the statement to Mr Khoisan?

MR J MBANE:: He was writing down what ever I was saying. He was writing all that I said and nothing else.

MR BOOYENS:: And can I take it that Mr Khoisan was told that the whole...that these people actually plotted to murder innocents. You told him that they were no threat to anybody, that they were innocent youths, can I take it that you told him that?

MR J MBANE:: I told him that and he wrote that down.

MR BOOYENS:: He wrote it down. What did he write down? Let’s get that clear. What did he write down?

MR J MBANE:: He wrote whatever I told him. And it’s right here in front of me.

MR BOOYENS:: Then he would have wrote down also that these youths were innocent youngsters who posed no threat, and notwithstanding that fact, they decided that they wanted to murder them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I said to him in this group there was only one person who was locally trained. The rest were not trained. It was only Rasta. The others were trained by us.

And whatever I told him is right in front of me.

ADV C BOOYENS:: Okay, Mr Mbane. So did you not tell Mr Khoisan that apart from dealing with the training, did you not tell him that they were just innocent youths that really posed no threat - they could have been any four youths from the township.

You didn’t tell him that?

MR J MBANE:: I said to him in this group there is only one who is trained. If I said that to him, doesn’t that obviously mean that the others were not trained, and harmless?

MR BOOYENS:: So he had to make that deduction. You didn’t tell him that exactly. That you...you see what I am more interested in is not whether they were trained, even untrained people can still pose a threat, I presume. You don’t have to have military training to pose a threat. You didn’t tell him that?

MR J MBANE:: I told him that amongst all the deceased there is only one who was trained, Rasta. The rest were trained by me and Maluleka. He wrote what I told him and that’s it.

MR BOOYENS:: After you infiltrated in Cape Town, the group initially, did you return to Vlakplaas at the end of January?

MR J MBANE:: No, I didn’t go there. I stayed here for two months.

MR BOOYENS:: Isn’t the true position that Mr Bellingan was only...was on a course in January and only joined your group in February when you had done your infiltration already? Just think about it carefully. It’s a long time ago.

MR J MBANE:: That I do not recall, as to when did he come here. But what I know is that we were here in January.

MR BOOYENS:: The question, I accept that you were here. I’ve got not dispute that you were here. I dealing specifically with Mr Bellingan. Mr Bellingan went on a riot control course in January, which only finished at the end of January and he came down late January or early February. Last few days of January or end of February. Is that possible?

MR J MBANE:: That I don’t recall.

MR BOOYENS:: And I don’t understand that question. You say that you don’t recall. Is it possible that Mr Bellingan was not here when you were here?

MR J MBANE:: The one thing I know is that me and Belletjies came together from Vlakplaas accompanied by Joe Coetzer. Joe Coetzer disappeared for some time, that’s why he was not present during the operation. He left us there. But now if you say that Belletjies was not there, you are confusing me.

MR BOOYENS:: You see, Bellingan’s evidence was that he did join with Coetzer down here, but that was only at the end...towards the end of January.

MR J MBANE:: What I know is that we drove down with Belletjies and Coetzer to Cape Town. As to whether he once disappeared or not, that I am not aware of. But most of the time I was reporting back to him with Liebenberg. As to whether he once left, that I don’t know. Then who was the Belletjies I was reporting to?

MR BOOYENS:: The vehicle, the kombi you came down with, did that have false panels in which the arms were hidden?

MR J MBANE:: Most of the vehicles had false panels.

MR BOOYENS:: Did this one have false panels?

MR J MBANE:: That I cannot remember, but most of our cars used false registration numbers.

MR BOOYENS:: No, no, no. I am not talking about registration numbers. I am talking about false panels inside the vehicle that you can pull off, hide a firearm and put it back so that people don’t see it. That’s what I am talking about.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they were there. That’s why we called it ice-cream.

MR BOOYENS:: And is it correct that the AK47’s came down from Pretoria with you?

MR J MBANE:: We - I don’t know whether we came down with them from Pretoria, but they were handed over to me here in Cape Town. As to whether we drove down with them from Pretoria, but they were handed over to me in Cape Town. I had only my own pistol, P38 in my possession.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, if the court will just bear with me.

I want you to look at paragraph 26 of your statement, your Johannesburg statement. Read it.

MR J MBANE:: Please read it for me.

I told you that in this statement there are numerous things that are not right. So I don’t know what to do anymore. There are a lot of incorrect things in this statement. I agree that I did sign it.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes. And have you read paragraph 26? Do you understand what’s written there?

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Mbane, do you need assistance with what is in paragraph 26. Do you want it to be translated to you?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, please.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Will the translators please assist. I will read and can you please translate. Or if you don’t mind, Mr Booyens do you want to ....

MR BOOYENS:: I don’t mind. I can read it out and the interpreter can interpret it Mr Chairman.

"After having assisted the squatters to fight the Witdoeke, we phoned our Vlakplaas squad and were told to remain there for some time.

The following week, myself and Thabiso had to report to Vlakplaas to fetch materials and obtain instructions. I was then joined by Eric Sifadi (and you corrected that in your evidence in chief to Maluleka) and we were given weapons to train those people from Khayelitsha. The kombi we were using at that time was driven by Mbelo, one of the police from Vlakplaas."

Do you now understand what is written in this statement?

MR J MBANE:: The kombi it’s one of the kombi’s that were driven by (...indistinct). We came town with them from Pretoria. As to whether there was ammunition in the kombi or not, I did not go back to Pretoria. I spoke to the Vlakplaas commander, that was when I was given the ammunition in order to go and infiltrate this group.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, when Ms Berlin was leading your evidence, you were quick to correct Maluleka, why didn’t you correct that?

I am talking about the fact that you said that you reported to Vlakplaas again, after you had joined the fight against the Witdoeke.

MR J MBANE:: I think there was a mistake there. I overlooked it. I got the ammunition here in Cape Town, not in Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS:: Surely your legal team have gone with you through your statement before you testified yesterday? Because you were actually being led on it.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it is so.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, why didn’t you correct it during consultation? Why didn’t you correct it during evidence in chief?

MR J MBANE:: That never came to my mind. The only thing that I noticed was Eric’s name.

MR BOOYENS:: I suggest to you it didn’t come to your mind because it’s essentially true, what you said here, you did go back to Vlakplaas.

MR J MBANE:: I never went back to Vlakplaas.

I stayed here two months, and this happened in March, after having stayed here for two months. And thereafter I went back, after the completion of the mission. I arrived here in January and left only in March.

MR BOOYENS:: These three informers that you were involved with the death of. Did you tell Mr Bellingan that you had killed three police informers?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told him. I told him at the Parade, where we met.

MR BOOYENS:: How many times did you tell him that you had killed police informers?

MR J MBANE:: I told him first about Lizo, and the second one - the first time he was in the company of Liebenberg, and secondly I told him that I don’t have an alternative but to kill Liebenberg’s informers, because they are always found with tapes with them. Because whenever he sent an informer, we had to shoot him.

MR BOOYENS:: And notwithstanding that fact, they carried on sending informers to a group that was well infiltrated by two security policemen.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they continued sending informers.

MR BOOYENS:: Notwithstanding the fact that you and Maluleka were there on the ground directing operations and reporting to them regularly.

MR J MBANE:: They continued.

MR BOOYENS:: And were these informers specifically sent to infiltrate your group?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: All three of them?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, all three of them.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, how long before the actual operation did the first informer, Lizo, come in?

MR J MBANE:: We were still busy training them.

MR BOOYENS:: How long before the initial operation. I know you can’t be exact.

MR J MBANE:: It might have been a week or two or three.

MR BOOYENS:: After you infiltrated this group? Or before the operation?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

JUDGE MILLER:: Sorry, Mr Booyens. Was it one, two or three weeks after he infiltrated?

MR BOOYENS:: That’s what I am trying to figure out as well. I don’t understand that either Mr Chairman. Was it....

CHAIRPERSON:: Well, your question was fairly clear - that how much time before the operation.

MR BOOYENS:: Fine, I’ll accept that. And the second informer,how many weeks before the operation? If I talk about the operation, I talk about the ambush.

MR J MBANE:: It was not after a long time, but it was consecutive.

MR BOOYENS:: And the same goes for the third one?

MR J MBANE:: The third one as well.

MR BOOYENS:: But, what I don’t understand is you were the experienced people at that stage, you and Eric Maluleka, not so?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: You were actually in charge of this group by then. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, why...who dealt with the interrogation of these informers?

MR J MBANE:: It myself, Eric and Rastaman.

We were all in the group.

MR BOOYENS:: And who searched them?

MR J MBANE:: We would choose anyone to do the job. There was no specific person responsible for searching them.

MR BOOYENS:: But, did you suspect that these people were police informers?

MR J MBANE:: The people who knew them, the people from Cape Town, they suspected these people.

MR BOOYENS:: And can you explain why it was necessary to sent people to infiltrate your group, further informers, because the logic of it escapes me. They knew exactly what your group was doing. You were reporting regularly.

MR J MBANE:: That’s why I called a special meeting with Bellingan because I wanted to know what was happening because these people had tapes and I didn’t know what was happening.

Liebenberg denied sending the informers to the unit. That is why I demanded a special meeting because why were they sending informers, knowing very well that we are already infiltrated the group.

MR BOOYENS:: You say Liebenberg denied sending the informers. And what did Bellingan say about it?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember Bellingan’s response. But what I told them is that whenever, if ever they send an informer while I was still there, I would kill that informer.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, so you actually informed them that you were going to kill the informers if they sent further informers?

Is that right? Was that after you killed Lizo?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And what was their action when you told them that you had killed their informers?

MR J MBANE:: He didn’t admit that he sent an informer. There was nothing further for him to say.

MR BOOYENS:: And you say Bellingan’s response you can’t remember.

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember.

MR BOOYENS:: And the second and third informers, what was their reaction when you told them you had killed even more of their informers?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t remember, but I told them that I won’t put my life in danger by letting them send the informers, because these people had tape recorders. It means that if Liebenberg is still prepared to send more informers, I am going to kill all of them.

CHAIRPERSON:: Why was it putting your life in danger?

MR J MBANE:: The people in the unit would search these informers and they would get the tapes attached to their bodies and I was staying there with the people who depended solely on me. Especially if they found someone with a tape, they were depending on me on what to do with those people, therefore, I would tell them to kill those people.

MR BOOYENS:: How do you know that Liebenberg sent these informers?

MR J MBANE:: Because I was dealing directly with Liebenberg, that’s why I knew that it was Liebenberg because he was the person who knew exactly where we were.

MR BOOYENS:: No, the question is how did you know it was Liebenberg who sent the informers.

MR J MBANE:: I think you can hear me.

If we were here in Cape Town, we used to deal directly with Liebenberg. The only people who knew our whereabouts were Liebenberg and Bellingan. Those are the people that I was reporting to directly, Liebenberg and Bellingan.

CHAIRPERSON:: But then Liebenberg and Bellingan were also the people who knew they didn’t have to send informers, because you were reporting to them. Isn’t that so?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON:: Wouldn’t it make you think the informers were coming from some other section in the police force?

MR J MBANE:: I thought that the only people who knew about us was Liebenberg and Bellingan. There was no-one else.

MR BOOYENS:: The - you see I’ve spoken to Mr Liebenberg and he told me that at no stage did he send informers to the group and at no stage were any informers of his killed by you; or did you tell him that you had killed his informers. What do you say about that?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, is Counsel now leading evidence on behalf of a witness?

I believe Counsel’s instructions are to appear on behalf of Mr Bellingan who has testified. We have received transcripts of Mr Bellingan’s evidence. I don’t know on which basis is Counsel now proposing to lead Mr Liebenberg’s evidence and put that in the form of a question to the witness.

MR BOOYENS:: My Lord, I was always under the impression that if someone makes a statement in a document, I am entitled to speak to those witnesses. I have spoken to Mr Liebenberg and he has given me that information. The witness can deal with it any way he likes. I am not giving evidence, it’s not necessary to give evidence. There is nothing improper about it. The name is there. The Committee can call Mr Liebenberg, I fail to understand the objection. I’m sorry.

CHAIRPERSON:: If the witness denies it, you can’t rely on what you put and form the question.

MR BOOYENS:: I can’t rely on it all. It’s not the issue. But I’m entitled to put it.

What is your comment about the fact that Liebenberg says that he never sent anybody. He told me that.

MR J MBANE:: I would say the same thing. I would also deny it if I was in Liebenberg’s shoes.

MR BOOYENS:: What happened to the tape recorders?

MR J MBANE:: We destroyed them.

MR BOOYENS:: You said that Liebenberg and Bellingan were aware of your whereabouts. What was your whereabouts. Where were you? What was the address?

MR J MBANE:: There are no proper addresses in the squatter camps. We were just inside the shacks.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but you said they knew your whereabouts. How did they know your whereabouts? How did you tell them where you were if there are no addresses or if you were just inside the shacks? I seem to recall that this was an enormous squatter camp.

MR J MBANE:: It was a squatter camp. I made some contact with them. Even De Kock was also there. They requested me to wear a white cap and sit on top of the car and read a newspaper. They would come with a helicopter in that area, which they did when De Kock came down to Cape Town.

They saw me sitting right on top of the car, reading a newspaper. It means they knew my whereabouts.

MR BOOYENS:: This is the first time we hear this evidence. Why is it not in any of your statements?

MR J MBANE:: This incident happened a long time ago. So I’ve got a problem with remembering everything at the same time. And even the people who took my statements, I haven’t seen them for a long time. Some of them, I haven’t seen them at all.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, if I understood correctly, you must have seen Mr Khoisan yesterday, if I’m not mistaken? Or didn’t you?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I saw him yesterday.

MR BOOYENS:: And when did you see him before that, before yesterday?

MR J MBANE:: I was with him on Sunday, Sunday evening I was with him.

MR BOOYENS:: So you saw him on Sunday evening, you saw him yesterday. Did you see on Monday as well?

MR J MBANE:: Correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Why did you see Mr Khoisan? You had legal representatives appointed for you.

MR J MBANE:: It is because he is the only investigating officer that I know.

MR BOOYENS:: But what did you want to discuss with him to see him, Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning? What did you want to discuss with him? Did you see him this morning as well?

MR J MBANE:: I saw him today.

MR BOOYENS:: This morning, yes. So Sunday, Monday, yesterday, this morning. What did you want to discuss with Mr Khoisan? Why the necessity to speak to him all this time?

MR J MBANE:: He is the person who knows where I stay. He went to fetch me in the morning, and even from the airport. He is the one who fetched me.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, okay. When did you arrive in Cape Town?

MR J MBANE:: I arrived Sunday evening, late in the evening. I can’t remember the time.

MR BOOYENS:: Very well. Now for what purpose did you see him on Monday. I can understand that he fetched you at the airport. Why did you see him on Monday? What did you want to discuss with him?

MR J MBANE:: He knows my place. He normally takes me from this office to my place. Even in the morning, he fetches me from my place to the TRC offices.

MR C BOOYENS:: Did you discuss the case with him? The evidence?

MR J MBANE:: No, we didn’t talk about anything concerning the case.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: I talked to him today because of the affidavit. And I was actually asking him...I was requesting a copy of the affidavit that I made in November. So there is nothing else that we talk about.

MR BOOYENS:: You didn’t ask him for an affidavit on Sunday or on Monday?

MR J MBANE:: No, it’s only yesterday that I remembered, late yesterday.

So this morning I requested him to bring me the affidavit.

MR BOOYENS:: Where did you say in Cape Town? In a hotel?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t think it’s necessary for me to reveal that type of information.

MR BOOYENS:: I’m talking about - I’m not asking your address. Is it correct that you stayed in a hotel and correct that you stayed there with Mr Khoisan?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lord, does my learned friend mean on previous occasions or during...

MR BOOYENS:: Now. Now.

MR J MBANE:: I can’t respond to that question.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t reconcile this incident with what you are asking me now.

MR BOOYENS:: I’ll tell you why I think it’s relevant because I asked at the end when this matter was adjourned in November, I asked if there was a statement made. I was not given a statement, so I want to know what’s going on here. That’s why I want to know that.

Did you stay with Mr Khoisan in a hotel in Cape Town? Yes or no.

MR J MBANE:: I can’t respond to that question.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: It’s because I don’t see the connection of these things.

MR BOOYENS:: I haven’t been stopped from asking the question. I think you’re obliged to answer it. It’s not for you to decide what’s relevant. It’s for the Committee.

Do you refuse to answer this question? Do you refuse to answer this question?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know where Mr Khoisan stays.

MR BOOYENS:: That’s not the question.

Do you refuse to answer the question whether now in Cape Town, from the time you arrived here, you stayed in a hotel with Mr Khoisan?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know who told you that we’re staying in a hotel.

CHAIRPERSON:: Mr Mbane, you seem to be avoiding answering the question. It’s a simple question, you don’t have to ask Counsel who told him you were doing so. Did you or did you not stay in a hotel with Mr Khoisan?

MR J MBANE:: I am not staying with him in a hotel.

CHAIRPERSON:: Why didn’t you say that in the first place? Why did we have this evasive behaviour by you?

JUDGE MILLER:: I think your answer was you are not staying in a hotel with him. The question was did you stay in a hotel with Mr Khoisan at any stage? Since your arrival at the airport on Sunday evening.

MR J MBANE:: I am not staying with him in a hotel.

MR BOOYENS:: You are not answering the question.

Very well, let’s make it simpler. Let’s forget about hotels and technicalities. Did you stay together with Mr Khoisan anywhere in Cape Town since your arrival in Cape Town on Monday, on Sunday night? If you refuse to answer the question, just tell me so, and I’ll leave it.

MR J MBANE:: I am not staying with him.

MR BOOYENS:: You are still deliberately avoiding the question. You say you are not staying with him. The question is: did you at any time since your arrival in Cape Town stay together with Mr Khoisan anywhere? You can just tell me if you refuse to answer the question, then I’ll leave it at that. Otherwise, you can answer it if you don’t refuse to answer it.

MR J MBANE:: All I am telling you is I am not staying with him and I never did before.

MR BOOYENS:: Okay, at long last we got an answer.

Why were you so reluctant to answer that question?

MR J MBANE:: Because I didn’t get your question clearly. I thought you were saying I am staying with him right now.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, let’s deal with the development of the group. The group initially consisted of four innocents, and one locally trained man who had his own AK47. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: When you went in to infiltrate the group, did you have your four AK’s with you?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I had them with me.

MR BOOYENS:: As well as the Makarov and Tokarev, I think they were. And the hand grenades and the ammunition.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So, right from the inception in January, you were able to arm your group quite well? Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Once again, the paragraph that I read to you earlier on, once again that is not paragraph 26 of your Johannesburg statement

"I was then joined by Eric Maluleka nad we were given weapons to train those people for Khayelitsha."

You say that’s not the way it happened

MR J MBANE:: Can you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: Paragraph 26 of the Johannesburg statement that said, there’s a sentence in it that reads as follows - remember you don’t read English so don’t try and read it. I’ll have it interpreted for you.

MR J MBANE:: Can you please compose the question.

MR BOOYENS:: Is that statement incorrect, contained in paragraph 26? Remember the context of paragraph 26. This suggests, let me simplify it, this suggests that you were given the weapons at a later stage. After you infiltrated the group. You say that’s incorrect.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s what I said.

MR BOOYENS:: Very well. Now, when did you tell - did you at any stage tell these people that took your statement in Johannesburg that the statement they had taken from you was incorrect and it contained mistakes?

MR J MBANE:: These people who took my statement, after some time they came to me and asked me to sign. That was the last time I saw them, although I had already told them that the mistake with people’s names there. But I never saw them again. They promised to come back.

MR BOOYENS:: The question is very simple. Do I understand you correctly that you told the people from Johannesburg that there were mistakes in this statement? At some stage. When they brought it to you to sign. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I told them, I once told them. I didn’t read the whole statement but I noticed that there are mistakes, but they said to me: "Just sign the statement, we’ll come back to you."

CHAIRPERSON:: Was this the first or second statement?

MR J MBANE:: That was the first statement I didn’t sign. Even the second statement has some mistakes. I signed it and they said they were going to rectify those mistakes after I had already signed the statement.

MR BOOYENS:: Perhaps just to finish this aspect. You not only signed it, you also took the oath according to this, and confirmed that it was correct. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Experienced witness, made many statements. Why do you take the oath that the statement is correct, knowing full well that it’s not?

MR J MBANE:: I just wanted them to stay away from me. I just wanted them to leave me alone.

ADV C BOOYENS:: Why?

MR J MBANE:: They were just bothering me. They were irritating me.

MR BOOYENS:: How were they irritating you?

MR J MBANE:: They didn’t have any respect for me. They just took me for granted. They treated me like a murderer, they didn’t have any respect for me.

MR BOOYENS:: And in order to get rid of them, you were just prepared to swear to the correctness of anything. Is that what you are now saying?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I just wanted to get rid of them.

MR BOOYENS:: May this be an appropriate time, my Lord?

CHAIRPERSON:: One last question.

I am maybe confused about this. Did they take you up to Johannesburg to make a statement there?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they took me to Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON:: And did they have to bring you back?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they did that.

CHAIRPERSON:: So you weren’t just trying to get away from them? They were still going to have to bring you back.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS:: (cont)

Mr Mbane, who is Colonel Pieters?

MR J MBANE:: He is one of - he is somebody I saw once here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS:: In what role?

MR J MBANE:: There was a time when we stayed with them just after we had arrived here.

MR BOOYENS:: You stayed with them. Doing what?

Leave the statement, answer my questions.

MR J MBANE:: No, I stayed with them for a short while.

MR BOOYENS:: So Colonel Pieters is just somebody that you coincidentally got to know.

MR J MBANE:: We had just arrived at that time, when I met him.

MR BOOYENS:: Ja, but you had nothing else to do with him.

MR J MBANE:: There was nothing much between us.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, the something then that was between you, what was that?

MR J MBANE:: His rank was higher than Liebenberg’s, here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you have anything to do with Pieters, did Pieters have anything to do with you?

MR J MBANE:: On our arrival here in Cape Town at Koeberg, I don’t remember exactly what transpired between us. It’s quite a long time. I can’t remember all the details.

MR BOOYENS:: But the people who briefed you to infiltrate the Comrades were Bellingan and Liebenberg. Right?

MR J MBANE:: On our arrival in Cape Town, during our briefing, it seems that he was present as well.

MR BOOYENS:: What does that answer "it seems" mean? Seems from paragraph 4 of your statement, yes. What do you mean? Why do you answer the question like that? "It seems that he was present as well". What does that answer mean?

Leave the statement alone Mr Mbane, and answer my questions. I can see you are reading.

MR J MBANE:: I think it seems he was there - which means he was there.

MR BOOYENS:: Doing what?

MR J MBANE:: On our, whenever you arrive at a new workplace, the staff meet you, the Colonels and Captains to brief you.

MR BOOYENS:: Did Pieters brief you to involve, to infiltrate this group?

MR J MBANE:: The main speaker there was Liebenberg. He was the one who even produced the photos.

MR BOOYENS:: Answer my question. Did Pieters have anything to do with the briefing - yes or no?

MR J MBANE:: I have said that the person who was talking was Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS:: So Pieterse - is the answer that Pieterse had nothing to do with the briefing?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Why did you say different in your Cape Town statement, paragraph 4?

MR J MBANE:: As I have said the person who briefed us was Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS:: Why did you say in paragraph 4 of your Cape Town statement: "We were briefed and tasked by Lieutenant Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingan, Joe Coetzer and Colonel Pieters."

MR J MBANE:: Only one person spoke and it’s Liebenberg, and he is the one who produced the photos.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you understand my question?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I understood your question.

MR BOOYENS:: Do you want to attempt to answer it? Why did you say that in your statement? That Pieters briefed you?

MR J MBANE:: I think there’s an error there, because the person who briefed us was Liebenberg, and he showed us the photos.

MR BOOYENS:: So, even in the Cape Town statement, there are now errors. Because Liebenberg - now Joe Coetzer, did Joe Coetzer brief you?

MR J MBANE:: No, he never briefed me. The person who briefed us is the person who is based here in Cape Town and I’ve said that it’s Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS:: So, in fact - and Bellingan wasn’t in a position to brief you because he wasn’t in Cape Town either. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Bellingan was our Commander from Vlakplaas. On our arrival, he was just told of the suspects, and he will tell us who will be in command, and then we will report to the person concerned.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, this chief that you met is Mr Myengeni? Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: It’s Yamile.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you know Myangeni at all? Or Myengeni?

MR J MBANE:: I said I know Yamile.

MR BOOYENS:: The question is do you know Mr Myengeni. Mr Mbane, please listen to my questions and try to answer them.

MR J MBANE:: No, there is no such person.

MR BOOYENS:: But, not only does that appear in paragraph 25 of your Johannesburg statement, but I distinctly recall that I asked you whether you met Chief Myengeni during cross examination and you confirmed it. Now you say that you don’t know somebody like that. What is the position?

MR J MBANE:: I am talking about Chief Yamile, not Chief Myengeni. I told you once before that there are wrong names used in this statement. Instead of Yamile, they wrote Myengeni.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, I accept that. But I used the wrong name Myangeni during cross examination and I asked whether that was the Chief that you met, and you said yes.

MR J MBANE:: I know Yamile. I don’t know Myengeni. Those names are wrongly spelled and that’s one of the mistakes done.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, let us deal - what made you pick these four youngsters. Why them? You had their photographs and so on, but they were obviously not activists. Why did you carry on with them?

MR J MBANE:: I was following orders.

MR BOOYENS:: Very well. What was the purpose of training these people?

MR J MBANE:: For ammunition purposes, military purposes.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but...no, they received military training, but what were they supposed to do? Why were the police wanting to train people that knew nothing?

MR J MBANE:: They are the right persons to answer that question, I was just following orders. They would be the ones to tell you, the police.

MR BOOYENS:: Because, obviously if I understand you correctly, the intention to attack the police vehicle only came from within the group, after you had finished training them. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So, for no apparent reason the police wanted you to train a number of completely untrained people and make them far more dangerous than they were before. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: What I am saying is that I was following orders. Instructions. I was instructed to train these people and when I reported that these people are untrained and harmless and there’s only one who is locally trained.

But because this person is trained then you rather take over the training and assist him in training them, and that’s exactly what I did.

MR BOOYENS:: And you took over the complete training?

In fact you expanded the group to nine. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: On whose instructions did you enlarge the group?

MR J MBANE:: I started with four and the fifth one was Rasta, and Rasta brought his own people and these boys also had their own friends that they brought in to join. I didn’t have anything against that.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you inform your superiors that you were even training more people now that could attach the police? You were now having eight completely untrained ones that you were going to turn into fairly lethal enemies. You informed Bellingan and Liebenberg of that.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS:: And they were happy about that?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know whether that made them happy or not.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, they didn’t try to stop you, did they?

MR J MBANE:: They never did.

MR BOOYENS:: Now...you then did say in one of your statements that you eventually - Mr de Kock came down and you reported to him that you had nine trained people. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he knew.

MR BOOYENS:: And, did you tell Mr de Kock that you had trained these people, that they knew nothing from the beginning your trained a bunch of complete rookies?

MR J MBANE:: I told him that there are people that I have trained and that they are nine in numbers. And they smoke dagga, and therefore I must buy them food and he gave me a box of dagga and money to give to them.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, that strangely enough is correct in your statement in Johannesburg. That you made in Johannesburg. That statement that you made just now. They didn’t make a mistake there. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So is the information about the informers that you killed, is correct in your Johannesburg statement?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So is the information in your Johannesburg statement correct about the fact that you met the man who might have recognised you and that you killed him?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: The information contained in your statement about - I’m just very briefly dealing with it, without going into detail. You also give detail in your Johannesburg statement of you joining Paul van Wyk’s statement and of operations in Swaziland. Is that information contained in the Johannesburg statement therein correct?

MR J MBANE:: They sent me papers to come to the Cape Town seven, so I am not sure whether I will be able to answer your question.

MR BOOYENS:: Have you gone through your full statement that you made in Johannesburg before you came into this Commission?

MR J MBANE:: I saw this statement in Cape Town. They sent me papers regarding the Guguletu 7 issue, and I didn’t read the rest of the things, other things.

MR BOOYENS:: So to this moment, you don’t know whether these statements, the other stories in here are correct. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That I am not aware of yet. As I have already said, what I am here for is the Guguletu 7 issue, and the papers that I received in order to appear in front of this Commission was to address specifically the Guguletu 7 issue, not everything that appears on that statement.

MR BOOYENS:: When did you receive the papers in connection with the Guguletu 7 issue?

MR J MBANE:: I received them somewhere in 1997.

MR BOOYENS:: Before last time when you came down to Cape Town? That was in November.

MR J MBANE:: I cannot recall, but sometime last year, because I had just come back from Zimbabwe and I found them at home.

MR BOOYENS:: Well did you have the Guguletu papers with you when you came down to Cape Town last year, for the hearing that was postponed.

MR J MBANE:: I don’t remember whether I had them or not.

MR BOOYENS:: Who was the first person that you mentioned to that the Johannesburg statement about the Guguletu 7 was incorrect?

MR J MBANE:: If it was not Fanie, it was Pule, but I just cannot recall all of them.

MR BOOYENS:: Fanie and Pule are Johannesburg people.

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know whether they are from Gauteng, but they are the ones who picked me up from my house and took me to Gauteng.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes. Who in Cape Town was the first person that you mentioned to that your Johannesburg statement was incorrect?

MR J MBANE:: The first person I told about this statement. It was Khoisan.

MR BOOYENS:: I see. And was that after you read your statement and realised there was something wrong with it?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you read it yourself?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I read it.

MR BOOYENS:: So you had no problems reading English?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t have a problem with English.

MR BOOYENS:: And why did you go to Mr Khoisan? Why not to my learned colleague, Ms Patel? She was the evidence leader.

MR J MBANE:: Khoisan is the one who came where I am staying and delivered the papers that were instructing me to appear here. I did not know Ms Patel. The person who delivered the papers was Khoisan. Nothing stated that I should contact Ms Patel.

MR BOOYENS:: But how did you know it was Mr Khoisan. I thought you were in Zimbabwe.

MR J MBANE:: It was written at the back, because I got papers from my daughter and the note said that I must go and meet Mr Khoisan. Ms Patel’s name did not appear on those papers, only Mr Khoisan.

MR BOOYENS:: You then proceeded - let’s return to the operation in Cape Town.

When was the idea mooted for the first time about attacking this police kombi. We know this incident took place on a Monday. When was the idea mooted that you should attack this police kombi?

MR J MBANE:: It might have been four to five days before.

MR BOOYENS:: About Wednesday/Thursday, Tuesday / Wednesday or Thursday. The previous week.

MR J MBANE:: It’s possible that it might have been four to five days before. As to precisely which day, I don’t know but you can do the counting and come up with the right day.

MR BOOYENS:: And once this idea was raised, did you immediately report to your superiors.

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I told them the following day, but I did that after we had done our recognising.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, and what was the reaction of the Vlakplaas people when you told them they were going to attack a police vehicle?

MR J MBANE:: They told me I must try and stop them. They told me in that same week that they had to go and attack those police. I tried to stop them.

But when I realised that I could not stop them, I suggested that we must recognise the area and I went there first with Chris and we reported back to the crowd again.

The following day, I instructed Chris to go and do the recognising, him and Maluleki, and in the meantime I went to report to my seniors to say the aim of this group.

MR BOOYENS:: So that must have been two days before the actual...one day...

MR J MBANE:: I do not recall these days, as this happened ten to eleven years ago. I cannot recall exactly the days. Please get me clearly on that matter.

If you can ask me exactly about the days, I cannot help you because I don’t remember clearly, but I can just tell you more or less how many days it was.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, that’s what I am asking you to do. It was about five days beforehand when they planned the operation. You reported the next day. You were told to try and stop them. That makes it the day before or maximum two days before the planned attack that you informed Vlakplaas that the attack was proceeding. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Please repeat your question.

MR BOOYENS:: If the plan was mooted about five or six days before the attack, four to five days before the attack and two days went by while you were, they were still doing reconnaissance, then it seems to me that it was one or two days before the actual attack when you told Vlakplaas that they were proceeding with the attack. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: We discussed this at night, and the following day we went to do the reconnaissance, me and Rasta. Therefrom we rested, but the following day I asked Maluleka and Rasta to go and do the reconnaissance and whilst they were away I went to check contact and they sent me to Seapoint where I got a room and in that room I found Belletjies and Liebenberg and explained to them what was happening.

MR BOOYENS:: What steps did you take to try and stop this attack?

MR J MBANE:: I suggested to them that we should start doing reconnaissance because we are not amateurs. So as to not land in a clumsy situation. And in that way, I was trying to stop them.

MR BOOYENS:: You were trying to stop them by planning the operation better. Is that what you are saying?

Because you went to do a recon - said to them, you are not amateurs, is that how you tried to stop the attack on the police kombi?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that is the means I used.

MR BOOYENS:: Now how does one stop an attack by actually getting yourself involved in the planning?

MR J MBANE:: Let me tell the Commission, I want to be given the opportunity by this Commission to explain exactly what happened, because you are asking me questions randomly. But I would like to tell you step by step the events as they happened.

I am kindly requesting this Commission to give me that opportunity.

MR BOOYENS:: I think you must just answer my questions and you can make your speeches afterwards.

How does it, by in going to do a recon, how do you actually try and stop an attack, because that is what you said you wanted to do?

MR J MBANE:: If I should not have done this reconnaissance, this would have not stopped the attack the following day, because our intention was to do the shooting the following day immediately after taking the decision. We discussed this thing overnight and their intentions to go and shoot the following day.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, I see. Are you now talking about the group. Your group discussed it the previous night and they said they were going to attack the police the following day? And you stopped it in that way. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I stopped it that way.

MR BOOYENS:: Is the following what happened then.

You stopped it that day, by saying to them we must first go and do a recon. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s how I stopped them on that day.

MR BOOYENS:: And then the next day you went to do the recon and the day afterwards you sent Maluleka and the other man and you made contact with Vlakplaas in Seapoint. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And you then reported to Vlakplaas that you had stopped the attack, the planned attack?

MR J MBANE:: I told Liebenberg and Belletjies.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, you told them that these people planned to attack the police vehicle and you had stopped them by suggesting you must first do a recon. Is that what you are trying to tell us?

MR J MBANE:: After Shakes and Rasta left, I went to make the telephone call and we arranged a meeting place at the hotel, and that’s where I told them that I attempted to stop this, but this won’t last for a long time.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes. And then, what was their reaction?

MR J MBANE:: They said I should just attempt to stop it, because they needed a chance to go and see the place as well.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, what attempts subsequent to that did you take to stop the attack?

MR J MBANE:: On the third day, I sent two more boys to go and do the reconnaissance.

MR BOOYENS:: That’s not stopping the attack, that’s delaying the attack. What steps did you take to stop the attack? If any.

MR J MBANE:: Then it means I was delaying the attack.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, this helicopter that you also told us about all of a sudden in your evidence in chief, and this sitting on the roof with a white cap and a newspapers and so on. When did that flight take place?

MR J MBANE:: It happened long before the planning of this operation.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, so they didn’t - this was a long time ago. While you were still busy training the people?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I was still training them.

MR BOOYENS:: Where was this place when you were sitting on the roof. In which township or squatter camp or wherever?

MR J MBANE:: I used to call it Khayelitsha, but it’s in the squatter camp areas.

MR BOOYENS:: But after Khayelitsha, you moved your place to Guguletu. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And your group was then based in Guguletu. Correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And did you again sit on the roof with a white cap reading a newspaper so that they could recognise the place from a helicopter once you were in Guguletu?

MR J MBANE:: No, I never did that again.

MR BOOYENS:: You were not requested to do that either?

MR J MBANE:: No, I was never instructed to do that.

MR BOOYENS:: So in fact the knowledge that they had earlier on about where this group might be would have served no purpose whatsoever in them trying to trace the group once the group had decided to attack the police. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Please repeat your question.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, you gave this evidence obviously with the intention of suggesting to the court that the police, that now specifically Bellingan and Liebenberg, knew where the group was based. It was right at the end of your evidence in chief. Do you remember that?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they knew.

MR BOOYENS:: But by the time the group had to attack the police station, you had moved from Khayelitsha to Guguletu. That information that had was outdated and not worth anything.

The group wouldn’t have been there where you were sitting on the roof anymore. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: If they had intentions of arresting us, and not killing these innocent people. On the very same evening, or the day when they came with the helicopter, they would have done so, but they were aware that I was training them and I gave them AK’s.

Their intention was not to arrest us on that particular day when I was sitting on top of the car reading a newspaper with a cap on because on that particular day we were armed and they could see exactly where we were so they had enough chance to arrest them. They just wanted to do this evil thing that they did.

MR BOOYENS:: Oh, so are you really saying that on the day of the helicopter flight, not only were you sitting on the roof with a white cap, but the group were armed and they could see that the group was armed from the helicopter? Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: Your honour, I am not sure whether you understand me.

What I am saying is that the time this helicopter was flying around, they knew that I was training these people and there were AK47 rifles and grenades.

And they were quite fully aware of the situation. They should have just arrested them in the same night, because they flew over the area during the day, so they should have come in at night and arrested them. I am not sure whether you understand me on that.

MR BOOYENS:: No, I think there was a misunderstanding. I understand what you’re saying now.

Now, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:: Where did you live in Guguletu?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember the addresses, but there was a shack that we used to stay in.

CHAIRPERSON:: It was a shack settlement again.

MR J MBANE:: There was a house inside the yard, there was also a shack.

CHAIRPERSON:: But Guguletu had addresses. It wasn’t a shack settlement was it? You say they had street numbers and street names.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you give Bellingan and Liebenberg the address? Where the Comrades were staying?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t give them the addresses.

MR BOOYENS:: But you knew the addresses of everybody. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: Can I please explain this to you Sir.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, let’s hear it.

MR J MBANE:: What happened there - when I was recruiting those people, I had all their names, all their information. Belletjies...I told Shakes, I instructed Shakes to get all the information of these people. I only took their biographies and gave them to Bellingan and Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS:: I am, well the group moved from - moved to Guguletu where there were addresses. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: So you knew because you were the leader of this band of men, you knew where they were staying. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: The biographies were still in Bellingan’s possession. They also knew where those people lived.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did they not also move and live with you at Guguletu. Did they remain in their homes?

MR J MBANE:: We left, both of us, we occupied two places in Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS:: I heard both of us, in my interpretation. Let me just make clear. All of you, you Eric and the whole group moved, or who moved to Guguletu?

MR J MBANE:: All the people who were in the group moved to Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS:: Now you had two addresses in Guguletu.

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know the addresses because we never had a chance to go out during the day. I didn’t thing about checking the addresses because the people who stayed in Guguletu at the time knew the addresses.

MR BOOYENS:: Please, are you seriously suggesting - well did you want to find out the addresses where you were staying. Obviously not so - that you can give that information to the police?

MR J MBANE:: As I have already told you, Bellingan and Liebenberg had the addresses, therefore I assumed that they knew. I gave them the addresses and the information concerning those young gentlemen and there were addresses included in that information.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but just now you said that you couldn’t give, I understood you to say that you couldn’t, you didn’t know the Guguletu addresses because you couldn’t go, you only had to go out at night. So how could you have given Bellingan and Liebenberg those addresses?

MR J MBANE:: Your honour maybe you don’t understand me.

MR BOOYENS:: Maybe I don’t.

MR J MBANE:: Let me try and explain to you.

Just before I could train these people I asked for their personal information. I took them myself to Bellingan and Liebenberg, therefore they had the addresses. Even another group that came after that, I did the same thing. I took all their personal information, after that I assumed that they had the addresses, so for me it was not necessary to go on looking for the addresses.

CHAIRPERSON:: You have just told us the whole group moved to Guguletu.

That would have been different addresses, wouldn’t it?

MR J MBANE:: Your honour, these people’s personal details are from Guguletu and some of them were staying in Guguletu. In one of the houses that we were occupying used to be a home of one of them. It used to be a home to one of them.

CHAIRPERSON:: So you moved in to the home of one of them, whose address you had already given to Bellingan. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON:: So, as far as that house was concerned, it’s not true to say that you don’t know the address because you never had a chance to go out in the day. You knew that address, you gave it to Bellingan.

MR J MBANE:: It’s not that address that I knew the address. After writing down their personal details, I took those details to Mr Bellingan. When we moved to one of the houses, I just assumed that they knew the address. I just told them that we have moved to Guguletu.

CHAIRPERSON:: When did you go and reconnoitre the scene? Where the attack was to take place? What time of day.

MR J MBANE:: It was early in the morning because the bus would go at a quarter past seven.

CHAIRPERSON:: So that was in the day time. So it’s not true to say that you never had a chance to go out in the day when you wanted to recon you went.

MR J MBANE:: I managed to go out with this other person to do the recon. It’s only the first day when I left the house, and the second day I ordered them to go and do the recon and the third day I went to report. They didn’t ask me about my address and whatever.

I just assumed that since I have given them the personal details of the people, they knew the addresses.

MR BOOYENS:: Thank you my Lord.

And the other address in Guguletu. What was the problem with that? Is that because it was too dark or you could only go out at night that you couldn’t give them the address where the other address used by your group.

MR J MBANE:: That never crossed my mind. I am the person who actually failed to think about that.

MR BOOYENS:: And it never crossed the mind of Bellingan and Liebenberg either. To say to you where are these people based. Ask you for an address. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I think they didn’t think about it also, because they didn’t ask me.

MR BOOYENS:: And I take it you also didn’t, it didn’t cross your mind to inform them that the whole group has now moved into one of the addresses in Guguletu that belonged to one of them. You didn’t tell them that either.

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t think about it also.

MR BOOYENS:: And I presume you also failed to tell them that the whole group had moved to Guguletu.

MR J MBANE:: I told them that we have moved and we were in Guguletu at that time.

MR BOOYENS:: And these two experienced policemen didn’t ask you where in Guguletu?

MR J MBANE:: They didn’t ask me.

MR BOOYENS:: The previous time they went to the expense of actually getting you with a white hat on a roof so that they could fly over with a helicopter. But this time they were so stupid that they didn’t even ask you the address. Is that what you are suggesting. You said Guguletu and they left it at that.

MR J MBANE:: I told them that one of the houses is the home for one of the boys. I think the address was already in his possession. They didn’t ask me, I assumed that they knew the address.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you tell them which of the boys?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS:: You tell them, one of them, there were several of them staying in Guguletu, not so? Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember how many of them were originally from Guguletu. But most of them were staying in Guguletu.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, exactly. So you tell them, Oh we are staying at one of the addresses of the people in Guguletu. And they didn’t ask you which one. Is that your evidence, Mr Mbane?

MR J MBANE:: That’s my evidence. They didn’t ask me.

MR BOOYENS:: And you didn’t tell them say, we are staying at Rastaman’s address, or whoever’s address it was. Or Chris Piet’s address, or whoever’s address it was. You didn’t bother to tell them that either.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct. I didn’t tell them.

MR BOOYENS:: In fact, I may be mistaken but I think when I asked you the question just a while back whether you informed them that you have moved to the address of somebody, you said no you didn’t, you didn’t think about it. Now you say you did. I may be wrong there, my Lord, but that’s my recollection.

ADV J MOSES:: My recollection is, my Lord, that he said that I just told them that we had moved to Guguletu. I think my learned colleague must just be careful not to put words in my client’s mouth.

CHAIRPERSON:: You see, he first of all started off saying he didn’t know the addresses, then he changed that to say it was the address of one of the boys, do you recollect that, Mr Moses?

MR BOOYENS:: Now, at that stage, your group consisted of nine, call them recruits, and you two, that is you and Maluleka. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: When they started there were nine and the others were informers. They were shot and killed. The eighth one was a Mozambican guy who came to join us.

MR BOOYENS:: Shortly before the attack, your group consisted of nine people, and you and Eric Maluleka. That was your evidence in chief. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: We were nine, including myslef and Eric Maluleka.

MR BOOYENS:: Your evidence was that there were five of you and subsequently another four joined you.

MS KHAMPEPE:: I don’t think so Mr Booyens. There were seven and there were nine if you included him and Mr Maluleka. Those are my notes.

ADV J MOSES:: That was also the evidence in chief.

MS KHAMPEPE:: That’s why I am saying Mr Moses. His evidence in chief.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that there were four. Rasta joined and then another four joined them, but in any case that is not too serious because I can get the number nine somewhere else.

MS KHAMPEPE:: I can read if you want to.

MR BOOYENS:: No, I accept that that is the Commissioner’s note, Mr Chairman.

So the group, was the group never bigger than seven recruits and you and Eric Maluleka?

ADV J MOSES:: With all due respect, that was never his evidence.

His evidence, his evidence in chief was clearly that the group started out with nine and thereafter certain people were killed. And if my learned friend can recall, that at - when my client testified about the incident itself certain people were dropped, and he was requested to tell the Committee how many at which intervals or stages. His evidence was clear that at the time of the attack there were seven people and him and Eric included amounted to nine people in total.

MR BOOYENS:: If my learned friend listened to my questions, he wouldn’t make unnecessary objections.

I was talking shortly before the attack, how big the group was then. I knew he said that seven people took part in the attack, Mr Chairman. I am not talking about the time of the attack.

ADV J MOSES:: With all due respect, then my learned friend should be clearer, because if it’s shortly, then it’s also vague. If he could given an indication as to what is meant by shortly.

MR BOOYENS:: Twenty four hours. Twenty four hours before the attack, how many members were in your group?

MR J MBANE:: We were nine.

MR BOOYENS:: Twelve hours before the attack, how many members were in your group?

MR J MBANE:: We were nine.

MR BOOYENS:: Does that include you and Maluleka?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you, did this group, excluding you and Maluleka, at any stage consist of nine members?

MR J MBANE:: Yes there were nine before including the informers who wanted to join the group.

MR BOOYENS:: So that’s why the group was reduced to seven: the informers were killed?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, what was the purpose of burying the two AK47’s? Or hiding them shortly before the attack, in the blankets.

MR J MBANE:: I was trying to reduce the number of arms in the kombi. So that others can go out and get other arms. I was not aware that those people were going to be shot. That was the reason.

ADV C BOOYENS:: Okay, you were unaware that the people were going to be shot.

MR J MBANE:: Anything can happen in that kind of operation.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, but why did you want to reduce the number of arms? You already had enormous fire power in that kombi. Three AK47’s and a few hand guns. Plus hand grenades.

MR J MBANE:: I wanted that the other people should go to the bush and go and fetch the other weapons, those that were already buried there. The only people who went away unarmed were those people who were supposed to fetch the arms in the bush.

MR BOOYENS:: I don’t understand why the arms had to be hidden in the bush.

You were travelling with three AK47 rifles, and hand guns, in fact there were then at a least a total of seven firearms and hand grenades in that kombi. Why did the two AK’s have to be buried? You said buried in the bush now, so let’s assume they were buried in the bush.

MR J MBANE:: Those were the people to alight first from the vehicle. They were going to fetch the arms. We were using different points. They were alighting from the vehicle at different points so then we wanted to reduce the number of arms in the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS:: Why?

MR J MBANE:: That was our plan.

MR BOOYENS:: Why was the plan made like that? That’s what I want to know. I hear what you say, I want to know why.

MR J MBANE:: I was not the only one who was making that decision, we discussed together with the commanders and we reached a decision. We agreed that we are not going to the same point.

MR BOOYENS:: Which commanders did you discuss it with? I thought you were in command.

MR J MBANE:: The three people in charge. I was the first in charge and another one second in charge and Rasta was the third in charge.

MR BOOYENS:: So you were quite enthusiastic about this plan. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That was our decision. All of us took this decision.

MR BOOYENS:: Were you enthusiastic about this plan of ambushing this police kombi?

MR J MBANE:: Can you please repeat the question? What do you mean about being enthusiastic?

MR BOOYENS:: You wanted to do it.

MR J MBANE:: First of all I didn’t know that those people were going to be shot because when I went there to show Bellingan that point where we were going to alight, they didn’t tell me that they were going to shoot them. They didn’t tell me that.

CHAIRPERSON:: What did you think they were going to do when people came out of your kombi with AK47’s, pistols, hand grenades. How did you think the police were going to react?

MR J MBANE:: I thought they were going to ambush the kombi and arrest these people. Not to kill them.

MR BOOYENS:: Sorry, is your Lordship finished?

Why did you think that?

MR J MBANE:: That’s what came to my mind.

MR BOOYENS:: It was just your own idea.

But now let’s return to the question that you still haven’t answered. Were you as a member of the group enthusiastic about this or did you like the idea of this attack of the police kombi. That’s the answer I have been trying to get out of you. You haven’t been answering that question.

MR J MBANE:: I was happy because I thought they were going to arrest these people and I had been in Cape Town for quite a long time. I was happy that it was time for me to go back home.

MR BOOYENS:: So, did you and Bellingan and the others plan the operation or did only you and Maluleka and Rasta plan the operation. Or did some of the ideas that you put in, did that come from Bellingan? Or was it only Rasta and Maluleka?

MR J MBANE:: I last saw Bellingan when I was showing him the place where the whole thing would take place. It was the last time I saw Bellingan.

MR BOOYENS:: Now when was that?

MR J MBANE:: The day before the incident.

MR BOOYENS:: Sunday.

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember the day. But we went there using another kombi that I don’t know and I went there to show them the place.

MR BOOYENS:: By then your plans had been made: how the attack was going to take place. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: With whom. Can you please repeat the question.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, were your plans...the group’s plans how to attack the police kombi by then made and finalised?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, that’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And did you inform Bellingan exactly what you were going to do?

MR J MBANE:: I told him.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you tell him you were going to bury some firearms in the bush?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t tell him that.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: Because I only saw Bellingan the day before the incident. By that time, we hadn’t buried the firearms in the bush, because the other people refused to alight from the vehicle carrying arms. They decided that we should go and bury the firearms in the bush, and Bellingan didn’t know anything about that.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but you planned to bury the firearms, although they were not buried, your plans were made. Your plans were finalised. You told me that. So why didn’t you tell Bellingan you are going to bury some of the firearms in the bush. And say we’ll bury it there, and then he can put up some people to ambush them there.

MR J MBANE:: During our plan, the idea of burying these guns was not decided upon.

MR BOOYENS:: So that was a last minute change of plan?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: But now, did you make any effort to contact Bellingan on the telephone and tell him listen, they’ve changed the plan and we are now going to bury some guns, that they can ambush them there?

MR J MBANE:: No, I never tried to do that.

MR BOOYENS:: Why not?

MR J MBANE:: There was minimum time.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, you said you never tried to do it. You didn’t even try.

MR J MBANE:: We decided this at night to put these firearms there and I was with Belletjies that morning.

MR BOOYENS:: But I think you told us in your evidence in chief that you could travel as you like. So why didn’t you do that.

MR J MBANE:: Maybe you are not aware. When an operation has already been planned, you don’t go in and out in the last minute of the operation. According to my knowledge, that is not done. You stay stable.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, let us once again return to the question that I still haven’t had an answer from.

Your group planned to attack the police kombi. That police kombi was going to come through there. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: As far as you knew that kombi was still going to be there the next morning. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: And if your plan came off, your group were going to fire and shoot at policemen. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct. There was going to be cross firing.

MR BOOYENS:: And your group might kill those policemen. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct. That was possible.

MR BOOYENS:: You did nothing at all to try and safeguard those other policemen by dropping the people off at the wrong points or something.

As far as you were concerned, you were setting them up for a real ambush where they could kill the policemen. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That is why I went to tell Liebenberg and Belletjies well before time.

MR BOOYENS:: And apart from the hiding of the firearms, did you give them your full plan how you were going to ambush the people?

MR J MBANE:: As I have already said, your honour we planned this all of us and during the last minutes, that’s when we took the decision to go and bury the other stuff at night and we rode off after doing that.

MR BOOYENS:: So when was the final plan how your group was going to ambush the police kombi made?

Was that only made on the Sunday night?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: Was it then decided that you would drop people at various points. They would get up at various points, etc.

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, did you drop some of the...the police kombi that you were supposed to ambush was coming across the bridge over the N2. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, did you drop off some of your men there? Because you travelled in the direction of the bridge I think...

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I dropped them there.

MR BOOYENS:: Those were the ones with the pistols. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Was this also something that you decided upon on Sunday night?

MR J MBANE:: Everything was finalised on Sunday night.

MR BOOYENS:: So your earlier statement that the plans for the ambush were finalised before you spoke to Bellingan the previous days was incorrect.

MR J MBANE:: I met Bellingan on Sunday, but the final arrangements were made on Sunday night and that is when we decided on a few changes and I didn’t have sufficient time to go and notify Bellingan.

MR BOOYENS:: So Bellingan didn’t know at all what your plan was. Nobody in the police knew what your plan was. They knew there was going to be an attack, but they had not details of it. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I told you honour that I told Bellingan and Belletjies and I showed them the spot where everything was supposed to take place. So obviously they were aware of the attack.

MR BOOYENS:: Now the three of you in the vehicle with the AK47’s. What were you going to do?

MR J MBANE:: Everybody was going to get off and occupy their specified positions.

MR BOOYENS:: Including you and Maluleka?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, including us. But we knew that we were to be arrested.

MR BOOYENS:: But, if the arrest didn’t come off were you going to attack that police kombi?

MR J MBANE:: That I don’t know. The only thing I knew was that these people were around because when we approached I saw a white kombi and I identified it. I knew it.

MR BOOYENS:: You see my problem with your statement here is simply the following.

That you knew you were going to be arrested. But people were dropped in various points. How were the police to know who to arrest?

MR J MBANE:: They have been lying in a wait a long time. They knew the time that it was going to happen between 7:00 and a quarter past. They were deployed well on time because when I went past I saw the kombi parked there.

And that’s when I suspected that they must be all over the place.

MR BOOYENS:: So, you saw a kombi parked there.

Was that the only indication you saw of police presence?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right. Because I know that kombi. It’s ours.

MR BOOYENS:: You didn’t know whether there were any policemen at the point, higher up near the bridge over the N2 where you dropped the men with the handguns.

Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: The only thing I knew is that they might be deployed all over the area. I expect that.

MR BOOYENS:: You expected that. You weren’t told that they would be deployed all over the area.

MR J MBANE:: I knew that it was going to be like that.

I saw our kombi there and I just told myself that they must be all over the place.

MR BOOYENS:: Were you not told to try and keep these people in the kombi and ride into the crossing and that they would overwhelm you there and the rest of the people?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, they told me that. But when decisions were taken at the last minute, what was I expected to do?

MR BOOYENS:: So Bellingan’s instructions to you were keep the whole group in the kombi, we want to arrest them there while everybody is in the kombi before a fire fight starts. That’s what he wanted. You couldn’t control it because the situation got out of hand. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: The last minute arrangements of hiding the firearms were done by the whole group and they knew the area more than me and they decided on the dropping points as well.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, just listen to my question.

Bellingan instructed you that you must try and keep all these people in the kombi into the intersection so that they can be arrested there. That’s what he wanted you to do. Is that right? Let’s take it bit by bit.

MR J MBANE:: He never mentioned any arrests. I don’t remember that. He just said...did he say that I must keep them in the kombi so that he can arrest them?

MR BOOYENS:: Well, did he tell you to try and keep them all in the kombi until you were in the intersection?

ADV J MOSES:: I must say I don’t know how the interpretation is, but at first I thought my learned colleague was making a statement, was putting it as a statement of fact to the witness. Those were Bellingan’s instructions.

Now it seems that it was thereafter transformed into a question. I have heard now out of the translation that the witness has now even picked that up also and asked him whether that was in fact a statement or a question.

Perhaps he could just be clear as to whether those were his instructions, and whether those instructions were given as a fact. For clarity’s sake.

MR BOOYENS;: Perhaps my learned friend shouldn’t try and take over my cross examination my Lord.

ADV J MOSES:: If the cross examination is clear, my Lord. If it’s not clear, it’s my legal duty to try to protect the witness.

MR BOOYENS:: Did Bellingan tell you that you must try to keep the people in the kombi. All of them.?

MR J MBANE:: He said so. He said you must try. He did not instruct me. He said I must try. There’s a difference between saying "try". He did not instruct me. I don’t know whether that will fulfil your answer.

MR BOOYENS:: No, that’s fine. Because that’s exactly what Bellingan said. He said that he said you must try and keep the people together.

But you couldn’t do it. You had a practical problem with that. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, at the scene, you off loaded Maluleka and who first? The two that were supposed to go and pick up the AK’s.

MR J MBANE:: And one other boy, I don’t remember his name.

MR BOOYENS:: How far from the spot where the AK’s were kept did you drop them off?

MR J MBANE:: It might have been 250 metres away.

MR BOOYENS:: Why drop them so far from the weapons?

MR J MBANE:: That was according to the plan.

MR BOOYENS:: But that’s illogical. You were one of the commanders of this operation. Why drop them so far?

MR J MBANE:: It is because you were not there during our planning session. I am telling you that’s the decision that we took there. I hope that suffices.

MR BOOYENS:: It doesn’t. It’s illogical. Why was it planned that way?

MR J MBANE:: We decided on that as a group.

MR BOOYENS:: That you are going to let them walk 250 paces to go and pick up their arms when they were going to ambush the police kombi.

MR J MBANE:: That was our decision.

CHAIRPERSON:: It’s by no means clear, Mr Booyens, whether this 250 yards was 250 yards along the road or 250 yards into the bush.

MR BOOYENS:: Point taken my Lord. I’ll clear that up.

The place where the firearms were buried, was it next to the road?

MR J MBANE:: It was in the bush. And they were going to walk into the bush and the spot we were going to attack was 250 metres away from that point.

If you say that I dropped them far, where would you suggest I drop them?

MR BOOYENS:: How far was the point where the arms were buried from the road?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t remember clearly. Maybe if I can see the area, I can remember. I know now that it’s built up.

MR BOOYENS:: Was it close to the road, that’s all I want to know.

MR J MBANE:: It was right inside the bush and they had to use the shortest route, because they knew that area. That is the first group, they knew where to find them.

MR BOOYENS:: Okay. You thereafter proceeded and dropped the next group of people in the direction of the bridge and you made a u-turn at the bridge. Is that correct.

MR J MBANE:: I dropped the other three. When you say on the bridge, I am pretty confused. I say I dropped the first lot and then I dropped the other three 100 metres away and then I dropped another one and the remaining three went to make a u-turn and when we came around there was already firing.

MR BOOYENS:: Okay. The first sound you heard was the sound like the explosion of a hand grenade. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it sounded like a grenade explosion.

MR BOOYENS:: Thereafter did you hear firing?

MR J MBANE:: Thereafter there was other firing.

MR BOOYENS:: Gun fire?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you then proceed into the intersection?

MR J MBANE:: No, I went on the pavement and I jumped out the car and when I attempted to run I heard some shots and laid flat on my tummy.

MR BOOYENS:: No, but did you hit the pavement in the intersection, in the crossing or close to the crossing?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, very near to it.

MR BOOYENS:: And you then heard gun fire?

MR J MBANE:: That’s what I said.

MR BOOYENS:: You took cover. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right, I took cover.

MR BOOYENS:: Inside the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I said to you I hit the pavement and jumped out the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS:: Okay, how far from the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: It was hardly 10 metres from the kombi, 7 to 10 metres away from the kombi it might have been.

MR BOOYENS:: No right. At that stage there were still two people inside the kombi. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I jumped off first, then Rasta followed because I was driving and the one who was inside because he was sitting in the middle and didn’t have enough chance to jump off because there was too much firing.

MR BOOYENS:: And you say this man was shot by Bellingan. Or you heard a shot in the kombi.

MR J MBANE:: As I was taking cover because I was near the car and I know a fire ringing. I heard this fire, the shot ringing in the car. As I was trying to run I heard some shots ringing and I took cover, but I heard Belletjies saying: "Don’t shoot the tall man. He is one of us". I am not sure whether you understand Afrikaans. This is what he said.

And then I heard a fire ringing in the car, and I saw Belletjies grabbing this man and then he hit him with a shot. I was watching it when I ran away.

MR BOOYENS:: Let’s just deal first with the shooting inside the kombi.

Who fired the shot that you heard inside the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: It was Belletjies. Because he had just called out don’t shoot the tall man. He is the one who shot inside the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS:: So he first shouted don’t shoot the tall man and then he fired a shot into the kombi.

MR J MBANE:: He shouted first don’t shoot the tall man and then I heard a fire, a shot ringing in the car. Whether he shot the man or not, I am not sure but the shot went off in the car. And then he dragged him out of the vehicle and he landed on the ground. He landed on his side.

MR BOOYENS:: And then he fired a shot again? Bellingan?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, he fired again. This person was lying on the ground. I could see 7 to 10 metres away.

MR BOOYENS:: How many shots did he fire while this person was on the ground?

MR J MBANE:: I heard one shot in the vehicle, I don’t know whether he hit him or not. He dragged him outside and threw him on the ground, but outside I heard about 2 shots, because I was very near.

MR BOOYENS:: So there must have been three AK47’s left in the kombi. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: Did all three of you get out without your AK’s?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t have mine.

MR BOOYENS:: Rasta?

MR J MBANE:: I am not sure. There was quite a confusion. Whether he had his AK rifle, I am not sure. But the other gentleman didn’t have his rifle with. My AK they found inside the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, for you information they didn’t find it inside the vehicle. There wasn’t, according to the police report....there was a total of only 3 AK47’s were found there and not five, and on your description there should have been five.

MR J MBANE:: There were supposed to be five. Belletjies and them know exactly where they are. There are supposed to be five. They know where the rest are.

MR BOOYENS:: The two AK’s in the blanket were found and one was found with Chris Piet and he was not in the immediate vicinity of the kombi. There is no...on what this Committee has been told and on what the inquest has been told there is a total of three AK’s found.

You don’t know where the other two are. You say there must have been five. There must have been two in the kombi, not so? You didn’t take yours. The man that you say was shot by Bellingan didn’t take his, so there must have been two AK’s in the kombi.

MR J MBANE:: All I know is that we had five AK rifles. Four of them, I took them inside the kombi. One AK we got from Rasta, the Makarov, Tokarev and two hand grenades. Then if that didn’t appear during the inquest, that’s not my business. If they have done their cover-ups, I don’t know anything about that and that is not my business.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you say there were four AK’s in the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: Your honour, we had three AK’s in the kombi, and then we had...all of them made up five AK’s.

ADV J MOSES:: I must add, my Lord, that I have heard that the interpreter said two when he testified in Xhosa. She translated it as two. But when he himself testified in English he referred to three in the kombi. That is how I understood it, just to clear that up.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you have a hand gun with you?

MR J MBANE:: I had a Makarov.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you keep that with you?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I kept it with me.

MR BOOYENS:: Even when you ran away you kept it with you. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s right.

MR BOOYENS:: And how did you get to Koeberg?

MR J MBANE:: I ran to one of the houses, they gave me some clothes to change so that I could disguise. They took me to Yamile’s place. From there they took me to the bus. From there I took a bus to Koeberg.

MR BOOYENS:: Were there buses running right to Koeberg at that stage?

MR J MBANE:: There were buses to Koeberg at the time.

MR BOOYENS:: The - now apart from the man close to the kombi that you say was shot by Mr Bellingan, did you see anybody else being shot?

MR J MBANE:: When I was running away, just a distance from the kombi, there were firing just across the road. I saw Rastaman falling, and I didn’t see they were shooting, I just saw him falling and he stood up again. Then I ran away because I was also afraid of the gunshots.

MR BOOYENS:: When Rasta was running, did he have his AK with him?

MR J MBANE:: He had his AK rifle. Because I saw him falling and he stood up again and he fell again and he stood up again with his rifle. He was not far from my direction. There was just a tar road in between.

MR BOOYENS:: Was he shooting?

MR J MBANE:: As he was falling, I’m not sure, I can’t say he was shooting, because he fell and stood up again and fell again and stood up. I am not sure if he was actually firing.

MR BOOYENS:: Were you subsequently asked to identify the bodies?

MR J MBANE:: I did not identify the bodies. All I saw was the video the following day.

MR BOOYENS:: Didn’t you go to the morgue? The mortuary.

MR J MBANE:: No, I didn’t go there.

MR BOOYENS:: Do you know whether Eric went to the mortuary?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t have any knowledge.

MR BOOYENS:: Were you shown the video and asked to ID the people?

MR J MBANE:: Some of them were badly injured, their bodies were bullet riddled, although I could identify some of them.

MR BOOYENS:: So, are you saying that you yourself never identified the bodies, nor all of them on the video. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: I couldn’t identify all of them on the video.

MR BOOYENS:: All seven of the people that were killed were members of your group. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: I recently saw a television interview with a man who claimed he was also there, and if necessary we are endeavouring to get that video, but he actually got away from that attack. Were there only seven of them or were there more?

MR J MBANE:: Who managed to run away?

MR BOOYENS:: A man, he wasn’t identified, who claimed that he was also there, but he escaped the trap, he wasn’t killed.

MR J MBANE:: All I know is that there were nine of us. I don’t know of anybody who escaped.

MR BOOYENS:: Can you perhaps insofar as it may be necessary to put to you what the police evidence is. You are not in a position to dispute that members of group attacked the police first. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Those who were with me in the kombi, no one attacked the police. I won’t know whether when they were outside if somebody shot at the police or not.

MR BOOYENS:: The police evidence was that the first thing that happened is that one of the people threw a hand grenade at a police car. You are not in a position to dispute that. You actually heard a hand grenade. Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: All I am saying is that who threw the grenade, I don’t know. Even the police have hand grenades.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Mbane, you have obviously completely changed sides again politically. Is that correct? Are you now a loyal and good supporter of the ANC again? You don’t support the erstwhile forces that you were associated with? Is that correct?

ADV J MOSES:: My Lords, are the political convictions at this point..does it bear any relevance?

CHAIRPERSON:: It may affect his credibility, mighten it?

MR BOOYENS:: Answer the question.

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t understand your question.

MR BOOYENS:: You were an ex-ANC member, you stayed loyal to them. Are you now again a full and loyal member and supporter of the ANC? Is that right?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t belong to any political organisation. I lead my life now.

MR BOOYENS:: Very well. Just to sum up the police evidence will be that someone threw a hand grenade, people shot at a police car, the police shot back and in the fire fight people were killed.

MR J MBANE:: I don’t have any knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS:: Furthermore, nobody shot at anybody inside the vehicle. Bellingan specifically didn’t shoot at anybody inside the vehicle. He shot at a person who was outside the vehicle.

MR J MBANE:: I deny that because I was just 7 to 10 metres from Bellingan. It’s not what I heard people saying. I was there.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you see Bellingan shoot inside the vehicle?

MR J MBANE:: I told you before, I am not sure whether you want me to repeat that?

MR BOOYENS:: Tell me again. Did you see him shoot. Yes or no.

MR J MBANE:: I saw him shooting, I told you before.

MR BOOYENS:: Where was he standing at that stage, when he fired the shot into the vehicle?

MR J MBANE:: I heard a gunshot inside the kombi. He pulled this person out of the kombi. I am not sure whether he was actually shooting at this person while he was lying flat, but he shot this person and I saw him shooting this person because I was just 7 to 10 metres away from him.

MR BOOYENS:: The question is where was Bellingan when you fired the shot into the kombi.

JUDGE MILLER:: Are you saying in relation to the kombi, Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, your Lordship. I am just trying to find out was Bellingan inside the kombi when he fired the shot. Or was he standing outside the kombi shooting into the kombi, that’s what I am trying to find out from the witness. Answer the question please.

MR J MBANE:: I told you that Bellingan, there was a person in the kombi, I heard a gunshot and he dragged this person out of the kombi and the person fell down. I didn’t see any blood. When I was closer to him, I saw him shooting this person outside the kombi. He stood there and I heard a gunshot and he dragged this person out of the car. It’s when this person fell down and that’s when I saw Bellingan shooting. I am not sure whether you are satisfied by that.

MR BOOYENS:: No I am not. Because you told us that he fired inside the kombi, in fact repeated that statement I don’t know how many times.

Now I want to know how do you know he fired inside the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I didn’t say that. I said I heard a gunshot inside the kombi. From there I saw Bellingan dragging a person out of the kombi and this person fell and he shot this person. Yes, I heard a gunfire inside the kombi, but I didn’t see him shooting the person. I only saw him pulling this person out of the car and the person fell and he shot that person. I am not sure if you are satisfied.

MR BOOYENS:: How do you know if this shot was fired inside the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: As I am telling you Sir, I was just 7 to 10 metres from the car. I know a gunshot, I know how it sounds.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, but why couldn’t it have been right next to the kombi? On the outside.

MR J MBANE:: I heard the gunshot inside the kombi, not outside the kombi.

MR BOOYENS:: Are you seriously suggesting that you could hear whether the gun was being fired inside the kombi, or whether it was being fired next to the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I was closer to the kombi and I could hear the gunshot inside the kombi and this person was dragged out of the kombi and I saw when he was shot at close range. I don’t know what is it that you want me to say.

MR BOOYENS:: What I want to know is how you can say that the shot was fired inside the kombi. Did it sound differently, or why do you say it. Why could the shot not have been fired right next to the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: The gunshot was right inside the kombi. I don’t know how to explain this. Because I was just next to this kombi and I saw him dragging the person, I didn’t even know who was being shot inside the kombi.

MR BOOYENS:: So there must have been a bullet hole at least in the kombi. Unless he was firing blanks?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t have any knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS:: Well you are adamant that he was shooting inside the kombi. Then one would expect at least a bullet hole inside the kombi. Not so?

MR J MBANE:: It depends. There could be a bullet, but if the bullet shot a person, there wouldn’t be any bullet in the kombi.

MR BOOYENS:: Yes, then there would be blood in the kombi. Not so? Do you know where Bellingan was when he fired this shot, or don’t you?

MR J MBANE:: I know.

MR BOOYENS:: Where was he?

MR J MBANE:: He was next to the passenger seat.

MR BOOYENS:: On your side of the kombi. Were you also on that side of the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I was on the other side. I was-when I tried to run away, I saw this guy who was trying to get out of the kombi. Then I took cover.

MR BOOYENS:: So he was standing next to the kombi. In which direction did he point the gun when he fired it into the kombi?

MR J MBANE:: I heard the gunshot. I only saw him clearly while he was shooting this gentleman. Outside the kombi. But inside, I only heard a gunshot. The outside that’s where I could see, outside the kombi, when he was shooting the gentleman.

MR BOOYENS:: Now, where...you say you heard two shots. In what position was the man when he fired these to shots that you claim you saw.

MR J MBANE:: He was shooting him in the head.

MR BOOYENS:: In what position was the man when Bellingan shot him, that’s the question? Was he standing, was he kneeling, was he lying down. If he was lying down, how was he lying down. That’s what I want to know.

MR J MBANE:: He was laying on his side.

MR BOOYENS:: Did he move at all, before he was shot?

MR J MBANE:: You won’t move if you are being shot in the head, because the bullet will kill you.

MR BOOYENS:: Listen to my questions please and don’t try to be facetious.

The question was did he move at all before he was shot?

MR J MBANE:: He tried to move before....

MR BOOYENS:: What did he do? What movements did he make?

MR J MBANE:: As he was laying on his side, you could see that this person was still alive and moving, although at the same time he was trying to cover - I am not sure whether he was trying to surrender or what, when he was being shot, he just moved once and after that he became still.

MR BOOYENS:: Was Bellingan holding him down when he fired the shots?

MR J MBANE:: No, he was not holding him down. I can’t remember seeing him doing that.

MR BOOYENS:: So he was standing upright, shooting at the man lying on his side. Is that what you are saying?

MR J MBANE:: That’s correct.

MR BOOYENS:: By then, had Rasta been shot?

MR J MBANE:: When I was running towards this particular house, Rasta was just a distance from me, just a tar road in between. He fell and stood up, fell and stood up again and I went on with my way. He was approaching a fence, there was a fence somewhere. I am not sure if he was shooting.

MR BOOYENS:: On which side of the kombi was Rasta. Passengers or drivers when you saw him falling?

MR J MBANE:: Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road.

Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road.

MR BOOYENS:: The question is on which side of the kombi was the fence. On the drivers side or passenger side. Was Rasta running.

MR J MBANE:: I am saying to you that Rasta was running, approaching the fence. He moved from the passengers seat and then he approached the fence. I was on the other side of the road. He was on the left hand side and I was on the right-hand side.

MR BOOYENS:: So in other words, Rasta was running towards the fence which was on the passenger side of the vehicle. Is that what you are trying to say? Because he was on the left hand side. All I am trying - if the kombi is stationary, there is the passengers side, there is the drivers side, now the fence, was it on the driver’s side that he was running on the passengers side?

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know how to explain this. Maybe you want me to take you there?

MR BOOYENS:: I don’t want to go there. Once was enough.

MR J MBANE:: It’s going to be difficult to explain this to you.

MR BOOYENS:: If the Commission will just bear with me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:: Will you look at photograph B4 please.

Does that show the scene of the shooting?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, it’s very clear.

CHAIRPERSON:: Can you see the kombi on that photograph?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON:: Is that the vehicle with its nose on the corner of the intersection. The white vehicle.

MR J MBANE:: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:: Now, can you show us where Rasta was running from that vehicle.

MR J MBANE:: I cannot make out much on this photo, but it seems that he was going in this direction.

CHAIRPERSON:: Diagonally across the road, on the driver’s side of the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS:: Sorry, my Lord. Driver’s side that is as I understand it would be to the direction of the red roofed buildings more or less. Perhaps with your Lordship’s permission we can ask the witness just to draw an arrow in the direction in which Rasta was running. I would like to get that as well.

MR J MBANE:: I don’t know this photo. I am not sure, but I’ll try my best to tell you from which direction. I am not sure I don’t know this photo.

CHAIRPERSON:: Have you drawn it there? May I have the photograph back please?

It’s on the corner opposite the red roofed building, where originally there were letters IM there. I think it was.

MR BOOYENS:: May I just borrow that to see it my Lord, We haven’t got a large photograph. We have only got smaller ones.

Yes, I am indebted to the Commission, Mr Chairman.

Are you under any witness protection programme, or were you under a witness protection programme?

MR J MBANE:: I want to know the relevance of that to the case.

MR BOOYENS:: Just answer the questions please. Are you under a witness protection programme? If so, whose witness protection programme. Or were you under a witness protection programme? It’s not for you decide what is relevant, it’s for the Commission to decide.

MR J MBANE:: I am not under any witness protection. I am protecting myself.

MR BOOYENS:: The question was two-fold. My mistake. Were you at any stage under a witness protection programme? At a earlier stage or not? Goldstone Department of Justice, anything of that nature.

MR J MBANE:: No, I was never under any witness protection programme.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you also make a statement in connection inter alia this matter to the Johannesburg Attorney General, De Oliviera’s team?

MR J MBANE:: No, I never made any statement, or I can’t remember if I did so or not. But concerning this incident, I don’t remember.

MR BOOYENS:: Did Ms Patel, I take it Ms Patel, my learned colleague on the other side there consulted you in November when you were down here. Is that correct?

MR J MBANE:: Yes, she did talk to me.

MR BOOYENS:: Did you tell her that your Johannesburg statement was wrong?

MR J MBANE:: I can’t remember. All I know is that I made another statement here.

MR BOOYENS:: Well, I think my colleague is quite a conscientious lawyer, she would have consulted with you about using this statement, in all probability. You can’t remember whether you discussed the correctness or otherwise of your statement with her?

MR J MBANE:: I remember taking the statement with Khoisan, telling him what happened about my statement that was wrong. That’s the only person that I can remember talking to about the statement.

MR BOOYENS:: Mr Chairman, I see it is virtually 4 ‘o clock. I think I am finished with cross examination of this witness. But obviously there may be some things that I have left out.

CHAIRPERSON:: Reserve your right until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

Very well, we will adjourn.

HEARING ADJOURNS