Amnesty Hearings

JUDGE MALL: Are we ready to begin?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin.

Mr Chairman, the matters for today are the Botswana

operation Kahn House, Vereeniging incident and Komatipoort

Four, on page 1, Mr Chairman. I will hand over to my

learned friend, that is the application of Mentz, the Mentz

application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I didn't hear, what volume, what page?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, page 68 is the first matter

that is Kahn House.

JUDGE WILSON: And whose....

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mentz's application, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I beg leave to call Capt Mentz?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.

ADV DU PLESSIS CALLS

WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (Duly sworn, states).

EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, on page 68 the

application starts. You say the period was between 1989 and

1992, is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you give a closer date for us, could

you remember?

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CAPT MENTZ: Unfortunately not.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 69 you started with the explanation

of this incident, and could you please start with the first

paragraph.

CAPT MENTZ: Instructions were given that an operation in

Botswana had to be carried out. The purpose of the

operation was to eliminate a business just across the border

in Botswana and a shop as well. There was also a house. It

was used as a shelter for terrorists. It was used as a

shelter for terrorists crossing the border, and it was used

as a contact point where information and messages were

passed on and help and assistance given to terrorists on

their way to the Republic of South Africa or were returning

from the Republic. We expected to find at this house some

terrorists there who would be overnighting there. The

target would be eliminated due to the fact that it was

necessary to prevent the passage of terrorists across the

border. These terrorists, were at that stage, responsible

for handgrenade explosions, landmine explosions, death of

innocent civilians and also other acts of terror. I was

not told anything else and it must be remembered that I

acted on the instructions of my commanding officers.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the persons using this

particular house, the terrorists, do you know where they

crossed the border normally?

CAPT MENTZ: Across the border-line not through any official

border post where you have to show their passport, they just

jumped the fence, as we called it. There wasn't a very high

or electrified fence, it was simply a farm fence and there

was a river and on the RSA side there was just an ordinary

fence. And they used secret routes there.

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ADV DU PLESSIS 76 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: You say it was used as shelter and

accommodation for terrorists crossing the border, this

particular contact house. Is your information that

terrorists were often to be found in that house before they

crossed the border?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you continue, please, the third

paragraph.

CAPT MENTZ: The persons involved in the operation were Col

Eugene de Kock who was in command. He was the senior

officer there. The other officers were Lieut Marthinus Ras

Jnr - Gen Ras' son. He obtained the information and liaised

with the local security branch in Zeerust, as well as the

rest of the Western Transvaal area. We also had with us

Willie Nortjé, Chappies Klopper, Marthinus Ras, as I have

mentioned, Warrant Officer Louw van Niekerk, Charlie Chait

and I later remembered other names: Douw Willemse, Dragon

Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen,

John Taite.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you please repeat those names,

slowly, because these people have not been notified. It is

only brought to our attention now and you perhaps have their

addresses or know where they could be found. Could you

please tell the Committee that, so that they can be

notified.

CAPT MENTZ: Certainly, Chairperson. I will repeat the

names. Douw Willemse, Dragon Andronowitz, Dawid Brits,

Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, John Taite. These persons

are all witnesses for the Attorney-General, except for, as

far as I am concerned, John Taite. John Taite lives in the

area of Knysna or George, I don't have a specific address.

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ADV DU PLESSIS 77 CAPT MENTZ

The rest, as far as I know, are all witnesses for the

Attorney-General. And then there were other people who were

involved, but I can't remember their names specifically and

I don't want to mention a name if I am not sure of his

involvement, but there were two or three other people

involved as well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, before we turn to the next

page, were you involved in the planning of this operation?

CAPT MENTZ: At no stage, Chairperson. I was at Vlakplaas.

I was a junior there. And as I have said earlier, I

received instructions - when I received instructions I did

not doubt these instructions and the way in which Eugene de

Kock had contact with the police and security head offices,

I had no doubt that these instructions came right from the

top, via him. When I say from the top I mean senior

generals and officers in the security police. And I didn't

call them into question, the instructions.

ADV DU PLESSIS: How did you see your involvement in this

operation relating to the political situation in the country

at the time?

CAPT MENTZ: The way I saw it, was that we were fighting the

ANC, PAC and other liberation organisations with every means

at our disposal. We wanted to eliminate these people and it

was important for us that the operation should be

successful, seeing that this particular complex was quite

close to the border in Botswana, and terrorists had easy

routes, easy access to and from the Republic of South Africa

and they also received further instructions, help and

weapons there.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, whom did you expect to find in the

house? You yourself, I am not talking about the planning of

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the operation, but that night when you went out, what or who

did you expect to find in the house?

CAPT MENTZ: The person whose business and home it was, as

well as terrorists.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Please continue, page 70.

CAPT MENTZ: I just want to add something here. I earlier

testified that I was at no stage involved in the planning of

the operation or the identifying of this place, but if I

remember correctly, I and Willie Nortjé went to the

technical branch, Pretoria, just before the operation and he

there obtained Scorpion weapons with silencers. These were

prepared for us there and I waited in the car. He brought

the weapons out in boxes, cardboard boxes. I helped him to

transport these to Vlakplaas. It was only at a later stage

that I found these weapons at a particular farm. So I was

involved in the transporting of the weapons from security

technical to Vlakplaas.

We left from Vlakplaas with quite a few vehicles in a

convoy to a farm near the Botswana border. The farmhouse

was deserted. I don't know whom it belonged to. So we went

to this farm near the Botswana border and slept in an empty

house that night. The next day we all obtained weapons,

these specific weapons. Some of these weapons issued to us,

were inter alia, Scorpions fitted with silencers. I am

saying inter alia Scorpions, if I remember correctly, we

only had Scorpion weapons. On that same day the weapons

were tested at that deserted farmhouse just to check that

they were in good working order.

The same night, the same evening we went to the

Botswana border, where we drove along various dirt roads. I

am not exactly sure of where the place was, and we walked

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through the veld. And we waited at a particular place until

about one o'clock in the morning. We were all dressed in

dark clothes. It wasn't camouflage type of uniform or

clothes, it was just dark denim clothes and sweaters.

I then heard that the person whose house and business

it was, was one Mr Kahn. Later that night we crossed the

river. There is a specific place where a type of a wall had

been built and we crossed there. I had heard that there

were crocodiles in the river. I was part of the so-called

back-up team, Andre Andronowitz and myself. We walked right

at the back. But at that particular place where we crossed

the river, Eugene de Kock first waited for us all to cross

and then he crossed, and then he passed us again.

I was at the back the whole time to make sure that

nobody was following us or pursuing us or that nobody saw

us. Near the business premises and home, which was fenced

around completely, and there was a type of an incline there,

I couldn't see exactly what happened, but Col De Kock - I

can't remember which leg it was, but he tore the ligament in

his knee, near the shop, and after that he had to be

carried. If I remember correctly, Louw van Niekerk and Douw

Willemse stayed with him.

I entered a gate and I think on the left-hand side

there was a black shack, asbestos shack, but they told me

that the night watchman was there. I went past this place

and after having passed the shack I heard the night watchman

coming out. He must have heard something. He was shot

there several times. He shouted - I can't remember who shot

him, it was very dark and I had already passed that point.

I was inside the premises to perform security and

defence functions there and I went to the shop to see if

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ADV DU PLESSIS 80 CAPT MENTZ

there were any people there. The shop is on the left-hand

side. I went around it and I was between the outside fence

and the shop on the premises. The direction which I was

facing was back towards the border of South Africa.

From the members went into the house next to the shop

and people were shot. The people, I think Marthinus Ras

Jnr, he was in the house, he went into the house. I think

Willie Nortje as well and others. I can't remember exactly

who, but I am virtually certain of these two.

I later heard that an Indian man, his wife and two

children had been killed in this operation or died in the

operation. They were sleeping. They were shot, explosives

were placed in the house.

Yes, Willie Nortje now works for National Intelligence.

He is also a State witness and he was one of the people who

went into the house.

Whilst after we had moved away from the house for some

distance the house exploded, was blown-up. The explosion

took place whilst we were already moving back towards the

border. Nobody knew - when I say nobody I mean Lieut Ras,

Marthinus Ras Jnr, he knew who was inside the house. It was

his information and the security branch Zeerust. It was

information I didn't know.

Specifically who were in the house - the instructions

were that the residents had to be eliminated because there

might be terrorists in the house. There was no information

available beforehand that there would be children in the

house and nobody expected any children in the house. If I

had known that children would be shot dead I would probably

have had a problem to continue with the operation. But I

would like to add here that I would still have gone along

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ADV DU PLESSIS 81 CAPT MENTZ

with the operation, I wouldn't have taken place in cross-

border operations after being told that children could

possibly be killed. I would have had a problem with that,

but I wouldn't have told De Kock and them no, I am not going

with.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What effect would that have had if you had

told them no, you weren't going to go with them, that you

refuse?

CAPT MENTZ: Well, in the first place I already knew of a

cross-border operation which was to take place. I don't

know what they would have done with me, but they could have

eliminated me, because perhaps I had become a risk through

knowing too much or they could have transferred me. But I

would have been worked out of Vlakplaas.

If I can describe it like this: such as a platoon

which had to march, and if you take out the marker or a

specific person then the platoon is no longer functional, it

doesn't have sufficient people. So I just went along with

the stream.

I personally would not have shot an innocent child

there, but as I have already testified, I didn't go into the

dwelling house. I was just securing the area around the

house. I would have gone along in a group context, as I

have already said.

I still have a problem with this operation, I think

about the children who were shot, and I don't live

comfortably with this fact.

If I could put it this way; it won't comfort me in any

way, but at that time I tried to deal with this, and I told

myself that the Defence Force did aerial raids across the

borders, also on foot, and there were other operations as

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ADV DU PLESSIS 82 CAPT MENTZ

well where innocent civilians were killed.

Furthermore, the terrorists planted bombs in the

Republic, landmines as well, and children and innocent

civilians were also killed in those incidents, and that is

the way in which I tried to deal with this incident.

As I have already testified, Vlakplaas was the military

wing of the security police, of the South African Police for

the government of the day, the National Party.

JUDGE WILSON: And Vlakplaas was called in to perform

precisely these sort of operations? Is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct. When we left the premises, I

was once again part of the back-up team. I can remember that

we struggled to carry De Kock because he was a big man. So

we progressed quite slowly. Andronovitch I once again

walked quite fast or slow jog and we kept looking back

towards the Kahn house. I can remember that there were other

lights close to this particular place, and I thought that

this must be a little village or something. We had to check

that we weren't being followed or that somebody close to the

premises had seen or heard us. That is what I meant when I

said I was part of the back-up team on our way back.

We once again crossed the river to the vehicles. We

had already reached the vehicles when the place was blown

up. As I said we were already in the Republic at that

stage.

We then went back to the farmhouse, from which we were

operating. After which we packed our stuff and early the

next morning - I remember we didn't sleep. Early the next

morning we drove to Richards Bay to constitute an alibi for

us. Col De Kock was lying on the back seat because his leg

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ADV DU PLESSIS 83 CAPT MENTZ

was injured. I drove the vehicle. I think we bandaged his

leg but he didn't get any medical treatment for his leg. We

just drove to Richards Bay with him in that condition. In

Richards Bay there were other members that had already

booked places and made arrangements and preparations for our

accommodation. This was under the command of Warrant

Officer Piet Botha. He is now Capt Piet Botha.

They rented rooms for us and they would have done

things to our beds to make the cleaners believe that we had

actually slept in the bed. As I have said, that was to have

an alibi.

As I saw the operation it was essential to eliminate

this passage used by terrorists. I gave no orders and I only

acted on instructions and orders.

The persons who were killed, four persons, including

the two children. The names of the persons are unknown to

me. As far as I can remember it was the Kahn family and

their house had been blown up. It was only the home which

had been blown up, not the shop.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, general motivation on page 74

to page - top of page 81, do you confirm the correctness of

that? On page 81, the second paragraph, you explain the

political motivation. Can you just read that for us,

please, the motive.

CAPT MENTZ: The motive in which I acted was in the

execution of my orders. It was also for the protection of

innocent people and elimination of activists. This was

necessary in the light of the war that was raging then.

This incident happened during the political unrest during

that period. The whole land was burning. There were all

sorts of problems, arson and other crimes that were

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committed in the name of the liberation movements against

the State and the destabilisation of the State.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The next page, page 82 at the top.

CAPT MENTZ: The aim was as explained above, because

liberation movements acted against the State and to resist

their actions of overthrowing the State. It was also

against activists. It would frighten them to act actively.

I also at all times acted under the command of De Kock. As

I have already said, Capt Ras Jnr, it was his information

and his co-ordination. He will also come and testify to

that extent.

The elimination of the activists and the safe house was

necessary in the light of the fact that the activists were

involved in serious acts of terror. It was necessary to

eliminate these activists to stabilise society.

It was furthermore necessary to protect the lives of

innocent people, black and white. It was impossible at that

stage to neutralise activists completely by ways of the

Security Act or normal police action. It was imperative to

act preventatively in foreign countries.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 83, you are asked an explanation or

your explanation regarding financial gain.

CAPT MENTZ: Quite a while after the operation, I will say

approximately three or four weeks afterwards, Willie Nortje

came to me and handed me an envelope, all the other people

involved also received such an envelope. If I can remember

correctly, there was R6 000,00 in that envelope. He said

that it was for that operation and that the main branch

congratulated us on it.

I regarded that as a reward for that specific operation

and for the reason that at that stage the National Party,

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85 CAPT MENTZ

the Government of the day would not officially have been

able to give us medals for bravery for over border

operations and so on. We saw that we were not receiving

medals for it but they gave us monetary rewards. That was

the first and the last time.

JUDGE WILSON: What bravery was there in shooting four

civilians who were asleep, that you thought you deserved a

medal?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I did not expect a medal, it was an

over-border operation, in a different country, which was the

enemy of the National Party, the Government of the day. If

we were caught there by the Army of Botswana or the police

or terrorists, they would have shot us.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Botswana the enemy of South Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: You've just said so, you said a foreign

country that was an enemy of the government of the day?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, then I would like to correct

that. They supported the enemies of the South African

Government in housing these terrorists. They allowed these

people to use their country for operations against the South

African Government.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, were you told anything

beforehand with regards to extra remuneration?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was the payment at all a motive for your

involvement in the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not at all.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. What did you think about this

when you were paid for the operation, with regards to the

higher officers and the main office, what did you think they

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accomplished by this?

CAPT MENTZ: It was their way of, in the first place,

showing us that it had been an approved main office

operation, and that they wanted to thank us in this way for

destroying this house and for the fact that this route would

not have been used again.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, under whose command did you

act?

CAPT MENTZ: Under Eugene de Kock and the other officers

there, who were present there.

JUDGE WILSON: How was the payment made?

ADV DU PLESSIS: It was at Vlakplaas ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No you misunderstand was it by cheque, was it

in cash?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, it was cash in a sealed brown

envelope.

JUDGE WILSON: Given to you by one of the people who had

participated in the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, Willie Nortjé. For

example, we never stood in a long queue to receive our

envelopes. We were called to the side one by one. I, for

example, had to go to Nortjé's office. He closed the door

and then he gave the envelope to me, but I know that other

people also received money.

JUDGE MALL: Are you finished?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe, have the relations of the victims

been notified in this case?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, no. Mr Chairman, attempts were

made to trace the relations, Mr Chairman, and the only thing

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that I could lay my hands on was the Sowetan newspaper

report, wherein this Kahn family was reported about by a

person who was a - by a Black woman who was working for

them, and at that time she made a report when she was in

Botswana. I could not make any traces as to families in

Botswana. It was only a report in the newspaper.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you enquire from the Government and other

such things? If they owned a shop, a large shop, we are

told, somebody presumably wound up the estate?

ADV MPSHE: I did not make enquiries in the Botswana

Government, but I am making enquiries with the ANC desk and

they did not have any particulars about the Kahn family,

save they also referred me to the World newspaper report.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I am not asking that. Surely when

somebody dies like this, who owns property, the estate would

have been wound up and there would be a record kept in the

relevant department as to what had been done with the

assets; had that been paid to members of the family, you

would have got the names of them.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so, but I did not make any

enquiries with the Botswana Government.

JUDGE MALL: Are there any questions you would like to put,

Mr Mpshe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Yes, sir. Was it necessary

for the night watchman to be killed? In other words was it

not possible for him just to be caught and bound and put

back into his shack and go on with the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was not involved in that. I don't

even know who shot the man, but I can remember that he

screamed and that he was then shot. They wanted to silence

him to prevent him from warning other terrorists who might

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have been in the house. The persons who shot him had to act

quickly to silence him. I don't even know if he possibly

helped ANC freedom fighters or terrorists. I don't know.

ADV MPSHE: You said in your application that you wouldn't

have killed the children yourself. Am I understanding you

to be saying that the death of these two children was

uncalled for?

CAPT MENTZ: If De Kock or Marthinus Ras had told me

beforehand that there were going to be children in the house

and that we were going to shoot them, and if he told me I

had to do it, I would have told them I won't. But as I have

testified I would still have gone with. I am sorry about

these children who were shot. I don't know, I don't even

know how old they were. I also don't know whether or not

they gave the terrorists staying over there that night, if

they gave them food. I didn't know anything beforehand, but

as I have already said if they had told me that I was to

shoot those children I would not have done it.

ADV MPSHE: Are you telling us that the killing of these

children was uncalled for, according to you?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that is possible.

ADV MPSHE: Are you also asking for amnesty as far as the

death of the two children is concerned, not so?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct. Because after I had heard

that there were children in the house, and that was after we

had crossed the border again, after we were back at our

vehicles in the Republic, we were talking about who did

what. I just heard that the children were sleeping. Up to

today I do not know how old they were. I do have a problem

with that but I apply for amnesty for them. Because

afterwards we all know the law. I associated myself with

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their death and therefore I am as guilty as the person who

shot them.

ADV MPSHE: Now if you are asking for amnesty in respect of

the death of these two children, what political motivation

do you attach to the death of the two children?

CAPT MENTZ: As I have said, they could have favoured

liberation movements, they could have helped these people,

given them food.

JUDGE WILSON: They might three and four years old, as far

as you knew, how can you make speculations like that?

JUDGE MALL: I honestly think that you should avoid

speculating to that extent. You have no idea as to whether

they were infants or what. I think the answer should really

be just exactly what you know and not what your conjecture

is, please.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, were you advised at any stage of the

ages of the children concerned when you discussed the

incident? On your way back you were told that the children

had been killed. Were their ages indicated to you?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you bother to ask to see whether they

might have participated?

CAPT MENTZ: I never asked.

ADV MPSHE: May I continue, Mr Chairman? Thank you. I

haven't heard the answer to my question. What political

motivation do you attach to the death of the two children,

if you were "vereenselwig" yourself with what the people

did?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this home belonged to their father,

Mr Kahn. This house was used for terrorists. The children,

I can't speculate, but they were under the influence of

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their parents. It doesn't matter how old they were, they

were part of the operation. Their house was blown up. The

aim was to destroy this place, as I have said, to eliminate

terrorists and to prevent them from using this as an

entrance route, and that is why they were killed.

ADV MPSHE: I won't pursue that because you are again

speculating as to what you think was the position. Let us

go back to the Kahn family, the husband and the wife. Were

they labelled or were they investigated and proved as being

activists in Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: As I have already said, they were - it was the

security branch of Western Transvaal and specifically

Zeerust, Capt Marthinus Ras Jnr was working in that area at

that stage. They would have made sure by means of source

reports that the people who were doing business on those

premises, favoured liberation movements and helped them

financially, that they received food, they received

information. I accepted this and I accepted that this place

was used for that specific purpose.

ADV MPSHE: I don't want to believe that you were told or

instructed by Eugene de Kock, and others, Willie Nortjé,

that come with us, we are going to do an operation in

Botswana and you were not told as to the specifics and as to

what has been investigated and found before you could go

with them. Is that what happened?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, as I have already testified, we

were told that the place was an entrance route at places

where terrorists could overnight, where terrorists were

helped. They received information there, information was

transferred there, and it was an operation. At Vlakplaas I

never worked with files. I was a foot soldier. I was in a

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war against liberation movements for the Government of the

day. I accepted that since these orders came from the head

office, that they would have made sure that this information

was correct. It was not just simply decided we are bored

and therefore we have to go over the border and destroy the

house. It came from the top. I believed that they knew what

they were doing. I never doubted the orders that came from

the top.

ADV MPSHE: Let me confine it because whenever I ask a

question and then you go very wide on my question. I will

confine you to what I want you to tell me, to tell this

Committee. Was the Kahn family eliminated because they were

activists or terrorists in Botswana or because they were

housing terrorists in Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: They were aiding, helping terrorists. I do not

know to which party they belonged, but according to me, if

you helped a terrorist, you do conform yourself to the

struggle, to the liberation movement. They were activists

against the South African Government.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so but helping a terrorist or

an activist doesn't necessarily mean that you are also a

terrorist or an activist. Is that not the position?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I see it differently. If you

helped a terrorist movement at that stage you were in my

books, also part of the struggle and a terrorist.

ADV MPSHE: Let me take you back to the Ribeiro matter, I

think the same facts in the Ribeiro matter would also come

in here. Yes, I am told you were not involved in the

Ribeiro matter, but you were present when the evidence was

given and cross-examination was done on this Ribeiro matter.

That day, it was established that Dr Ribeiro himself was

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an activist but assisted activists and terrorists medically.

How do you respond to that one?

MR DU PLESSIS OBJECTS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't

want to inhibit my learned friend, but I don't understand

the relevance of that question. I don't understand why the

Ribeiro matter is raised here and I don't understand the

reason for the questioning. I object against the question.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it is very easy to understand. The

witness has just testified that if you assist an activist or

a terrorist, it means you associate yourself with that and

you may be an activist yourself. Now I am sketching out the

Ribeiro incident in that it was found the opposite in the

Ribeiro matter, not by this Committee, but the evidence

...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Mpshe, then perhaps you should put the

whole story. There was also evidence that they assisted

them financially to go out of the country and assisted them

financially after their return.

ADV MPSHE: That is correct, that was the evidence given.

But the point I am trying to make here, is that the fact

that he was assisting them financially and medically, did

not make him an activist. As the witness says if you do

assist, then you are one.

JUDGE MALL: I think Mr Mpshe, on that point you can

address us on when the time comes, in the Ribeiro case.

ADV MPSHE: As it pleases the Committee.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will

sum up my questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: One of the problems I have with the evidence

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here, and in other instances, is you continually say you

were a foot soldier. You merely carried out the

instructions of the generals.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you took part in the killings of numbers

of people. You can't even remember what year this was in.

This was somewhere between 1989 and 1992.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the impact it had on you. Why did

you people never take the trouble to do a little

reconnaissance?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, as I have already testified, Capt

Marthinus Ras who worked in that area, close to the border,

together with the other security branches, would have made

sure beforehand what was going on. They would have checked

where we were going through, they would have verified with

the informants, that this Kahn business cum house was used

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: These are lovely excuses. They were not

checking what was happening that night, Ras was with you, he

wasn't checking, was he?

CAPT MENTZ: We were not waiting and sent him over to find

out what was going on. All of us went together.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but why did you Vlakplaas hit squad who

was brought in from Vlakplaas to the Western Cape, the

Eastern Cape, Eastern Transvaal, all over the country to

kill, why didn't you check first? You did not know who was

sleeping in that house that night. You made no effort.

CAPT MENTZ: I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your unit made no effort to find

out. There might have been a doctor who was treating

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someone who had been brought in urgently ill, or a nurse or

a priest. You didn't know. You went in and killed the

people you found in the houses. Why did you not bother to

check up to make sure there were not innocent people, and in

this case you would have found there were two children?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, Marthinus Ras would, together with

the local security branch, have verified this information,

but we didn't go over first to make sure. We expected

terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you, you were all together that

afternoon, you all went there together. Nobody, it is quite

obvious, nobody was checking up and nobody did in the other

cases. Why not? I am not asking for a motive for the

attack, I am asking for the actual mechanism. You are going

to attack a house. You are going to shoot the people in it

and blow it up. Why did you never take the trouble to find

out who precisely was in that house, which you could have

done in most instances, by just watching the house for the

afternoon.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was in a different country.

Marthinus Ras' amnesty application is already before you. I

will request the Committee to ask him these questions,

because he was in control of this operation, together with

the security branch. There might also be other applications

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: You were the Vlakplaas hit squad brought in

to do the killings.

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did the Vlakplaas hit squad not check up

on what they were attacking? Why do you always try to put

the blame on somebody else.

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CAPT MENTZ: I refer here to Marthinus Ras who was with me

in the Vlakplaas hit squad, it was his operation. I

accepted that he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought he was in the Western Transvaal

Special Branch?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, he was also at Vlakplaas, but he

worked in the Western Transvaal/Botswana district, from

Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: So you agree, you made no effort to check up

who was in the houses before you attacked them?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your Vlakplaas unit, not just

you individually.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, Marthinus Ras would - he was not

all the time with me, he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you that afternoon and evening,

he wasn't checking up.

CAPT MENTZ: From the time we came to the farm, yes. But I

did not go there with him. We weren't driving there in -

together, so I don't know if he checked beforehand.

JUDGE WILSON: But he was with you at the farm, he wasn't

watching the place. The other cases we heard, you didn't

check on beforehand, did you? It was not your practice.

CAPT MENTZ: No, we acted on a source information from other

branches.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On page 71, the third paragraph or the last

paragraph there, that sentence reads "that nobody knew who

were in the house before the house was entered." what does

that mean?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, when I read this sentence I added to

that, I said nobody knew who was in the house, but I believe

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that Marthinus Ras would have known. We weren't told. When

I testified in main I extended on that, expanded on that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On what basis do you believe that Ras would

he have known?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, because I spoke to Marthinus Ras

during this week and he told that his application - I don't

know if it is here yet, but he says he explains it in his

application who knew and who didn't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Further on you say,

"There was no information that there had been

children in the house, and nobody expected

children in the house".

what time did the attack take place?

CAPT MENTZ: It was after one in the morning.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Surely you would have expected that children

would be there in the house at that time?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair now that I think back, yes, but I

didn't know that there were going to be children in the

house. I knew that Kahn and the terrorists in the house

would have been eliminated and that the place would then be

blown up to destroy the buildings.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If the Kahn had children where would you

expect their children to be at that time of the day?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, in the house?

JUDGE MGOEPE: You see this sentence of yours that there was

no evidence that there were children in the house, is

puzzling. The real question should have been, was there

information that there were no children in the house, isn't

it so?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, that is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because one would have expected that time of

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the night that children should be in the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, I admit that, that's true, but I

thought there was going to be Mr Kahn and the terrorists.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there any real concerns about the safety

of children in the house, was there any serious concern on

the part of your team?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, there was never any talk of

children being in the house. It was never discussed. I

don't know if specifically the people who were in the house

who shot the people there, then discussed it amongst

themselves, but it was never mentioned before we reached the

farm house. I was the back-up, I was never told that. It

was never discussed, but I don't know if, whether or not

they discussed it beforehand, those people who went in the

house, if they knew this, but I am sure that Marthinus Ras

will come and explain this.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And what you do know, you say here is that

there were instructions that the occupants of the house be

eliminated?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And nothing further was said about the

children, as far as you can remember?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, terrorists were expected in the

house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Where in Botswana was this?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I am not exactly sure, but Col Roelf

Venter testified, I think they - he spoke about Derdepoort.

This rings a bell somewhere that it could have been in this

area, the Derdepoort border post. I have never been there.

I am not one hundred per cent sure, but it could have been

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JUDGE WILSON 98 CAPT MENTZ

in that area.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you give us a little more indication

where Derdepoort is? I don't know if any of the

Commissioners know.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it from Rustenburg on the road to

Nietverdiend where Herman Charles Bosman lived?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, I think it is, if you drive to

Zeerust you pass through Zeerust, and there somewhere to the

right. If you turn to the right outside of Zeerust, there is

a border post, but it is not that one, it is on a dirt road

before you get Zeerust, in the Botswana direction. I think

there somewhere, there is a border post somewhere there as

well.

ADV DE JAGER: How far is this from Vlakplaas approximately?

CAPT MENTZ: To Zeerust?

ADV DE JAGER: Is it in the vicinity of 2 to 300

kilometres?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever serve in that area?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: You were never stationed thereabouts?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DE JAGER: You never investigated any routes there?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I only once accompanied De Kock

to Mmabato, Mafekeng.

ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct - not translated).

CAPT MENTZ: He went to pay an informant from Botswana

there.

ADV DE JAGER: When were you transferred to Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: It was the 1st of August 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: That was after you met De Kock when you

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ADV DE JAGER 99 CAPT MENTZ

arrested one of his Vlakplaas unit members for murder in

South Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, it was Almond Nofemela.

ADV MPSHE: Perhaps to help the Committee Mr Chairman

Derdepoort, as the witness has correctly stated, before you

can reach Zeerust, there is a turn-off at the Groot Marico,

just over the bridge, you turn right into Groot Marico and

then it takes you through to the Swartruggens area,

Derdepoort is just around there. It was the border of

Botswana.

JUDGE WILSON: A very long way from Richards Bay.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, Richards Bay, we went there

afterwards to create an alibi.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you probably throw more light why you

chose Richards Bay all the way from North West?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was to make sure that nobody could

have seen us in the vicinity or in the area, because then

they could have concluded that we were in the vicinity and

there was an attack at the house.

ADV DE JAGER: It is approximately the farthest place you

can come or you can go in South Africa from Derdepoort.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair. The morning when we

drove away we were told for the first time that we were

going to Richards Bay. That's why I say we never had all

the details of the operation, but the people in command,

like De Kock and Basson, they knew.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you realise or were told for the

first time that children were shot dead?

CAPT MENTZ: It was the evening when we went over the river

and when we got in the vehicle, when the place blew up, it

was said that children were also shot. I don't know who shot

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ADV DE JAGER 100 CAPT MENTZ

them, but we were told they were shot.

ADV DE JAGER: You heard after they had been shot?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.

MS KHAMPEPE: The purpose for which this operation was

executed, was to close the gateway for the terrorists into

and out of the borders of the Republic of South Africa. I

would be correct in summarising the purpose in that way?

CAPT MENTZ: That is right. Also to kill terrorists that we

might have found there, but there weren't any.

MS KHAMPEPE: And this Mr Kahn was aiding and abetting the

terrorists. Now when did you become aware that the person

who was aiding and abetting the terrorists was this certain

Mr Khan? Was that before you were on your way to Gaberone,

whilst things were being prepared, or were you told this

information as you were travelling and crossing all the

rivers full of crocodiles into Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, we were told this while we were

at Vlakplaas. We were told that there was a house in

Botswana - for the purposes as I have already explained -

which had to be blown up and eliminated. But I didn't have

any source files from Zeerust or the Western Transvaal.

MS KHAMPEPE: Who told you, was it Marthinus Ras Jnr?

CAPT MENTZ: It might have been either Ras or De Kock, but I

think it would rather have been De Kock. He was our

commander and he would have told this to us. He would have

told us that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you think it relevant at that stage to ask

for more details about Mr Kahn to find out more about his

marital status, to find out more about who the occupants of

the house were?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I never received orders from De

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MS KHAMPEPE 101 CAPT MENTZ

Kock with regards to covert offensive or defensive

operations. Because he had been the commanding officer and

liaised with us, as well as with security head office, I

never questioned this. I believed that it would have been

proved by head office and police and that those people would

have made sure that the information is correct. I never

asked questions.

JUDGE WILSON: You felt no responsibility to do that?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, my seniors - I believed my

seniors would have done that.

JUDGE MALL: I just want to clear up a point which worries

me too. When the decision to attack this house and property

was made known to you, were you told specifically that there

were going to be terrorists in that house at the time you

were going to attack, or was that a matter of no concern?

You knew that there was a house, you knew that there was an

owner and according to you, it was known that that owner

provided succour to terrorists and so on, and so it didn't

matter whether there were terrorists or not, you were going

to blow up this house, irrespective of - even though there

were no terrorists there? Was that the plan?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was brought under the impression

that there might have been terrorists there. But the house

had to be blown up.

JUDGE MALL: There might have been terrorists and even if

there were no terrorists the house had to be blown up.

That's the point.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, the place had to be destroyed so

that it could not be used again in the future.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, so even if there were no terrorists, that

house and the family that occupied this house, had to be

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JUDGE MALL 102 CAPT MENTZ

eliminated, had to be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Captain on page 69, you say that - I might

have missed something here - the purpose of the operation

had been to eliminate a shop and a large business. Is this

what happened eventually?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it must read the house. The people

weren't sleeping in the shop, the house had to be blown up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am told that in your evidence, you added

"and the house". In other words it would have said that the

aim of the operation was to eliminate "a house, a shop and a

large business".

CAPT MENTZ: What I meant to say was that it was a business

complex, there was a shop, but the house at the business

complex, I mean, the house had to be eliminated.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But there must be a shop and then a business

premises in which people would not be sleeping, people would

be sleeping in the house.

CAPT MENTZ: That is what I meant. Let's say it was a

smallholding with a shop and a house next to it on one

premises, the house was next to the shop.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What troubles me is whether you did stick to

the mandate? Were you told to eliminate the shop and the

business, which is something quite distinct from the house?

CAPT MENTZ: No, this is a mistake. The order was to

destroy the house. There was no attempt to burn down the

house - ag, pardon, the business.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It is not just one word that we are dealing

with here, we are dealing with quite a number of points. A

shop and a large business, you in fact even described the

business, shop and business, described as a big business or

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JUDGE MGOEPE 103 CAPT MENTZ

something.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, there was only one business on the

premises. There was only a shop. There was no garage or

whatever else.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you see when you initially compiled your

application you knew that the people were killed in the

house, isn't it? You knew that the people were killed in

the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now how could you have by accident have

omitted also to say that the house was also to be attacked,

and instead only mentioned the shop and the business?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, but just at the end of this paragraph

it is mentioned that it was used for a liaising house. It

might have been the case, but we never attempted to destroy

the shop.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am trying to understand the basis on which

you could possibly have made this kind of mistake when you

compiled your application. How could you have forgotten to

mention the house, when in fact you knew then already that

the people were killed in the house. How could you have

forgotten also to mention that the house was also to be

attacked?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, we sat late at night in drawing up

these affidavits. We had to take it to the police the next

morning. It could have slipped in there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well let's see what you mean, are you

saying that you were also, you were instructed also to

eliminate the shop and the business?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, what I mean here ...

(intervention).

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ADV DU PLESSIS 104 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, can I please come in here.

You will see on page 71, specifically - specifically in page

71 there is a clear distinction between the house and the

shop; explosives were put in the house and the inhabitants

were shot in the house, nobody knew who was in the house. I

was inside the premises and I looked into the shop to see if

there were not people there. So he draws the distinction

there later on. I just want to point that out in all

fairness Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I know that, I know that they attacked the

house, isn't it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the line of

questioning, with respect, was that he never mentioned in

his application the house. I just wanted to clear that up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No. No, that is not the line of my

questioning.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Initially I did so, but my attention was

drawn to the fact that he did mention the house.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood it. Thank you Mr

Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes. Now I am going back to page 69. You

said that the shop and business were to be eliminated. Or

do you want to delete that or that whole portion?

CAPT MENTZ: If the Committee would allow me, I just want to

reiterate, what I meant was this is a business premises,

with one shop on it. It was only one shop where food and

other things were sold. There were no other businesses.

The shop and the premises with the shop on it, is business

premises and next to that was a house. I expressed myself

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JUDGE MGOEPE 105 CAPT MENTZ

wrongly.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, well that will leave us with a shop,

that there was a shop, isn't it. Now I am asking you

whether your instructions were to attack that shop or

whether we should also cancel, delete the shop as well, and

leave only the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, we only had to attack the home or

the house where the people ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: And the shop and the business are all a

mistake.

CAPT MENTZ: .... where the terrorists might have

been....(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: They should not have been here.

CAPT MENTZ: We weren't ordered to burn down the house,

there was no explosives - there was only explosives for the

house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you sure that this is a mistake, wasn't

this actually the order that you go and blow up a shop and

instead of blowing the shop you people deviated and then

attacked the house?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, the order was Kahn, the house and

terrorists. The people there had to be eliminated, the

house had to be blown up. It was never said that while you

people are going to attack the house, others had to burn

down the shop. That was never said.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I've noted your point, you are you

saying that all this was a mistake and we could just as well

delete that, but I must tell you that I cannot understand

how you could have made this kind of mistake.

JUDGE MALL: Can you recall who conveyed to you precisely

what you were supposed to do, what you were supposed to

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JUDGE MALL 106 CAPT MENTZ

destroy? Who told you precisely, was it De Kock, was it

Ras?

CAPT MENTZ: No, it was De Kock.

JUDGE MALL: Was he conveying his remarks to you personally

or to the group as a whole?

CAPT MENTZ: At the farmhouse there was a quick meeting and

it was told to me, if I remember correctly, you and

Andronowitz must stay behind all the time, to make sure that

we are not being pursued or attacked from behind. I was on

my way there and I stayed behind all the time and the same

on our way back, I stayed right at the back.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. No, I am concerned about the instructions

as to what was to be destroyed, when that was being told,

was that told to you personally or was that told to the

group that you are going there to destroy this, that or the

other?

CAPT MENTZ: No, it was given to the group that the house

had to be attacked, terrorists and Kahn had to be

eliminated, we had to set explosives. If I remember

correctly the explosives were set in the main bedroom and

then we left the area. But we were never told you, you and

you must shoot the children. That was never said.

JUDGE MALL: No, I wasn't thinking about that. I know what

you were told that you and Andronowitz were to stay behind

or follow from the rear.

CAPT MENTZ: No, there was a group meeting beforehand.

JUDGE MALL: Yes I heard they had a group meeting, their

instructions were that you were going to destroy certain

things.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MALL: When you left Vlakplaas you didn't know what

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JUDGE MALL 107 CAPT MENTZ

you were going to do. Is that it?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson. At Vlakplaas we were told

that we were going to jump the fence into Botswana and that

there was a house which the terrorists were using. So we

knew we were going to operate in Botswana. That we knew.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you told that after the operation you

were going to go and establish an alibi?

CAPT MENTZ: No, as I said, that morning after we finished

and we came to the farmhouse, we decided we would go to

Richards Bay to constitute an alibi. That was told to us

then.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the clothing to go and

create your alibi in Richards Bay? Here you were all

dressed in dark denim clothing, which would have stood out

like a sore thumb in Richards Bay, wouldn't it?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, but as I testified earlier, at

Vlakplaas if you left to go and do a job you sometimes were

absent for two or three weeks. So we always carried clothes

with us, other, a change of clothes. We only put on the dark

clothes there on the farm. For the rest we had normal, we

wore normal clothes, we never wore uniforms.

JUDGE WILSON: So all of you had enough clothing to last for

some time?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you have given evidence that you

cannot sleep even up to this day because of your

participation in the killing of the children, which is still

weighing heavily on your shoulders.

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was involved in several things

which affected me, and at times I have to use sleeping

tablets to be able to sleep. These things affected me. I

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MS KHAMPEPE 108 CAPT MENTZ

can't say it was only this case or another case. Each and

every time when you talk about these things it all comes

back to you and then the whole thing starts afresh.

MS KHAMPEPE: How did you feel when you received the payment

of R6 000,00 from Mr Nortjé, knowing that it was payment

related to the killing of such children?

CAPT MENTZ: All of us received that, we all used it and I

thought well, that's the way it worked and I used it, but I

feel bad and I have remorse about the children. As I said,

at the start of my evidence, the way I tried to deal with

this and to make it easier for me, I use the example of the

Defence Force with cross-border operations and aerial

attacks and in the course of which innocent children are

also killed. That's the way I try to explain it to myself

or to justify it to myself, I don't know.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman,

please. Capt Mentz, could we please go to page 23 of your

application. Could you please read the last paragraph.

CAPT MENTZ: I tried to make this application as detailed as

possible. Any further elaboration on the facts will be done

during my testifying before the Commission. Aspects such

as, for instance, my motives and the objectives with which I

pursued these acts will be more fully motivated during

evidence. Due to constraints of time I stand by the

contents of this application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Capt Mentz, since these applications

were drafted, you have also talked about this with Marthinus

Ras. Is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 109 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Have you spoken to any other people who

were involved in this incident?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the evidence which you have

given about this incident here today, is that the truth?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any reason why you would lie to

this Committee about the blowing up of the house or the

blowing up of the shop or business complex? Is there any

reason why you would want to tell a lie?

CAPT MENTZ: Not at all, Chairperson, that is why we are

here.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any benefit which you would derive

from not telling the truth on that aspect?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, if I don't tell the truth, I

simply prejudice myself.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Are you satisfied that if the written

portion of your application, if that does not set out the

situation hundred per cent correctly, that you have now

clarified the position before the Committee and that they

have now heard the truth?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the questions put to me by the Committee

have clarified this.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, there are some questions about

previous applications and also this application. Questions

have been asked to yourself and other persons who were in

subordinate positions and I would like to go into this in

some detail to sketch the situation in the military context.

The South African police at that stage, especially in

Vlakplaas, which operated like a military unit, I would like

the Committee to understand the customs and the practices.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 110 CAPT MENTZ

If a higher officer gives you an instruction during this

period that we are now referring to, and I am specifically

referring to this incident, would you have accepted that the

instruction was given on the basis of information at the

disposal of a senior officer?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And as I have already said, if De Kock gave

you an instruction then I believed that it came from the

general staff security police.

CAPT MENTZ: I never doubted De Kock's instructions. I

believed it came from head office.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is that how the system worked, Capt Mentz?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes. I never opposed De Kock or anything like

that at that stage.

ADV DU PLESSIS: For instance, let us sketch the situation,

I would like the Committee to understand this. Could there

have been a situation where you would meet and where the

instructions were given and then the matter was discussed

and then you would ask questions, you cross-examine the

commanding officer to make sure that his information was

correct. Would that have been a possible scenario?

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know, nobody ever questioned De Kock in

my presence. We accepted that it came from head office. I

never cross-questioned him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And during your training, was that what you

were taught, that instructions work in this way?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And during your training as a policeman were

you not told to obey the law?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, but these were different circumstances.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you knew that this was not legal

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 111 CAPT MENTZ

actions done by policemen during the course of their duties,

didn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Capt Mentz, if,

for instance, you were to launch your own enquiry as a

result of this information or your own investigation, would

it firstly have been possible for you in your position to

get information from the informers in the Western Transvaal,

acting on your own?

CAPT MENTZ: No, because then I would have had to say to

them no, you wait, just wait, don't do anything, I am now

going to get into my car, drive to Western Transvaal and I

want to get insight into all these things. It never

happened and I couldn't do it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What would your commanding officer's

reactions have been if you had tried to do something like

that?

CAPT MENTZ: That I didn't trust them or the security branch

or the police. They would have worked me out. I would

then have constituted a security risk for them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, at that stage did you know

about operations abroad done by the South African forces,

Defence Force and Police?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you at that stage aware of the fact

that South African Defence Force operated in South West

Africa and in Angola?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know about the police unit Koevoet

in South West Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 112 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know how they operated?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, everything.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you accept that that was part of the

Government's policy, do you think the Government knew about

this?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you accept that the Government

approved of this?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson, we were never called in and

told stop your activities or anything like that, so I

believed that that was proved under the policy of the

National Party to combat terrorism.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And in that light, in that context, the

instruction which you received about this incident, did you

consider this to be part of that context?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as justified in the

circumstances?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as an instruction from

head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, as I have said earlier, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, your own subjective view

about this matter, what were your views about the people in

commanding positions at head office, who would have given

these instructions and their knowledge of the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: I believed that the instructions came from

them, they approved them and that was why it was carried

out, and that it was done with the approval of the National

Party.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you never whether there was a report

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 113 CAPT MENTZ

sent back on this incident, back to head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did anybody in your group involved in this

operation, were they ever repudiated at any stage?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of us.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And that was the case, despite the fact

that children had been killed?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, and that's why they sent us

money.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now about the issue of the children, I want

to ask you one or two questions. Did you know, you

yourself, did you know beforehand that the Kahn family had

children?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know whether any of the other people

involved in the operation knew that the Kahn family had

children?

CAPT MENTZ: At that stage I didn't know, but now I do know.

As a result of my conversation with Marthinus Ras, I now

know that he knew.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That he knew that there were children?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and that is what he will testify.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Where you were present, were there any

discussions about children ever?

CAPT MENTZ: No, except when we crossed the river back into

the Republic when the house was blown up, it was said that

there were children.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, you were also asked about the

possibility of reconnaissance operations beforehand to check

out the scene there. Now in the circumstances reigning on

that evening and the way in which the operation was carried

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 114 CAPT MENTZ

out, and the area, would it have been possible, could it

have been done easily?

CAPT MENTZ: No, as I testified earlier, we were not to be

seen in that area. That's why we created the alibi, the

Richards Bay alibi. If we had tried to go there earlier

that day and drive around there and we had been seen, that

would have blown the whole operation. That's why we stayed

on the farm, we were not allowed to leave there. We only

left there that night to go to that place.

JUDGE WILSON: If one person, presumably a black person had

wandered around outside the shop, can you seriously say that

would have blown the whole operation? I am not talking about

the whole mob of you driving in your cars, waving your

silenced guns. It was perfectly easy for you, from

Vlakplaas, we have heard of all the askaris you have, to

taken one and sent him quietly to just see who went in and

out of the house. Wouldn't it have?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so, Chairperson, but perhaps it was

done and perhaps I was not aware of it by the local security

branch sources. I don't know about that though.

JUDGE WILSON: So if it was done, they went in knowing there

were children in that house and determined to kill them. Is

that what you are saying?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether it was

done, I can only testify about what I know, I can't testify

on anybody's else's behalf.

JUDGE WILSON: If it was done, it means they went in knowing

it?

CAPT MENTZ: It is possible, but I didn't know it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What did you expect there, whom did you

expect to find there? Could you answer?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 115 CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Kahn and terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mrs Kahn?

CAPT MENTZ: Possibly, yes, I foresaw the possibility that

she could be there.

JUDGE WILSON: You talk about the Kahn family. When you

talk about a family you would normally think of children as

well, don't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so. I didn't know that there were

children. But, I have already said, that if at Vlakplaas I

was told that there could possibly be children involved,

then I would have had a problem with it, but I would still

have gone along with the operation.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know how old the children could have

been or are you not at all aware?

CAPT MENTZ: No, until today I don't know.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: You said a moment ago that no one in your

group was ever repudiated, but you took steps, we have heard

from time to time, to avoid or to frustrate police

investigation into some of the killings, didn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so.

JUDGE MALL: Very well, thank you. We move onto some other

aspect of the matter now, Mr Du Plessis.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, the next matter we wish

to deal with is page 104, the happening at Penge Mine. Capt

Mentz, please start on page 105, read that for us.

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I would just like to say that, if

I remember correctly, this happened before the Brian

Ngqulunga case, but I can't remember specific dates.

Ngqulunga was July 1990, I think. If I remember correctly,

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 116 CAPT MENTZ

this happened before that, and in my application I didn't

know who the victim was in this case. The Attorney

General's office, during our first session in Johannesburg,

they asked and told me it was Johannes Maboti.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, I think this mine spelling is

P-E-N-G-E, Penge Mine.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chairperson.

JUDGE MALL: Proceed.

CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock, I cannot remember the date,

but it was after two in the afternoon, Eugene de Kock, Col

Eugene de Kock gave the instructions to take him to

Vereeniging in his vehicle, it was a Toyota Cressida. At

that stage I didn't know exactly what it was all about. We

went to a police station near Vereeniging. As far as I can

remember, it was the De Deur police station.

When we arrived there we met Warrant Officer Duiwel

Brits. He was there in a brown Land Cruiser. Sgt Louw van

Niekerk, Sgt Leon Floris. We were outside the police

station and then another security branch policeman - I know

he is a security branch in Vereeniging, but I don't know

him. He came walking out of the police station with a Black

askari. It was the first time that I had seen that

particular askari. Col De Kock told him to come with and

the security policeman from Vereeniging was then no longer

with us. The askari got into the vehicle by himself, into

Brits' vehicle, he was not forced to get into the vehicle.

Col De Kock and I followed the Land Cruiser. I asked

De Kock where we were going and he said we were going to

Penge Mine to find out what the askari had to say. We then

went from Vereeniging on the freeway as far as Pretoria and

then on the Witbank freeway. On the other side of Boschkop

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 117 CAPT MENTZ

we took a turn-off to the left and then it becomes a gravel

road. Here I want to make a correction. Where it says the

askari was tied up, that's wrong. I will point that out

now. When we stopped on the dirt road and I got out of the

car and I went to the vehicle I then saw that the askari was

tied up. I then inferred that they had tied him up whilst we

were driving. I mean his hands were cuffed or something.

At that stage I wasn't quite certain of the purpose of

this operation, what was to happen to him, but my conclusion

was that the askari had been detained at the police station

in De Deur and I believed that he would probably be killed

because he was an ANC or PAC freedom fighter who had been

caught by the security police. He then became an askari and

that he had gone back to the ANC and given information to

them. I then suspected that he probably would be killed,

because otherwise we would have gone back to Vlakplaas with

him, and De Kock would then have spoken to him there.

I can't remember exactly why we stopped at Boschkop.

As far as I can remember now, I think De Kock wanted to make

sure that he was tied up. I say here, and he also

handcuffed him. I don't think he physically cuffed him, I

think he just checked to see that the cuffs were secure.

We then drove off to Penge Mine, the mine situated on

the other side of Burgersfort, in the Eastern Transvaal and

it was the first time that I ever went there. We arrived at

the mine. It was - there was a small village community and

then outside the place there were several mines and this

Penge Mine was one of these mines. We arrived there that

night at the mine and then met Warrant Officer Snor

Vermeulen and Warrant Officer Lionel Snyman. They are also

witnesses for the Attorney General.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 118 CAPT MENTZ

Penge Mine was at that stage used for a training base

and askaris were there trained by Vermeulen and Snyman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you - Penge Mine is also about 300

kilometres from Pretoria?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: In the north-easterly direction of the old

Province of the Transvaal. It is now the Northern Province,

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct. The askari was then cuffed to

a pole and we drank further there. Later that night De Kock

gave an instruction that we should take the man with us to

the mine dumps. It is not on top of a mine dump, I would

say it was sort of a hole that had been dug, excavated area.

When we got there a chair had already been placed there and

an explosive had already been attached to the underside of

the chair. The askari was then placed on the chair and tied

to the chair.

On the way there I walked right at the back. Whilst I

was walking at the back I saw how Floris, that is Leon

Floris, gave De Kock a revolver. I say here in my

application it could have been a pistol, but afterwards I

thought about it again and I am almost certain that it was a

revolver, the .38 type.

As I said the explosives had already been tied to the

underside of a chair before we arrived there. De Kock

meanwhile had now received the weapon from Floris and he

shot him twice or three times. When I saw that he was about

to shoot him I looked away, but he shot him three times. I

therefore didn't see how the bullets hit the man directly.

Nobody told me, yes, he had gone over to the other

side, but that is what my belief was, that the man had

returned to the ANC and had given them information.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 119 CAPT MENTZ

We then walked back and whilst we were doing so Lionel

Snyman had an LMG machine-gun and it was mounted some

distance away and he then shot off a couple of shots in the

mine dumps, to make it sound as if we were busy with

training at night, et cetera.

I then continue. Whilst we were walking back I became

very nauseous. If I say nauseous, I don't mean that I

stopped and vomited. My nerves were very, very tense, I was

very nervous and I had a nervous feeling at the pit of my

stomach. I say here that it was totally unacceptable for

me. I knew the man was to be killed and I associated myself

with that, but the way in which it was done, I found

unacceptable. If they wanted to kill him they should have

shot him from behind or they should have blindfolded him or

something, but don't shoot him where he is tied to a chair

and actually looks at you. I didn't feel good about that.

When we were nearly at the base camp, the explosion took

place and the askari was blow into the air.

I was never told what the real reason was but my

inference was, and I stand by that, that that is the reason

why he was killed. My inference was that he was an askari

who had returned to the ANC and then gave them information

that he was arrested and that there probably hadn't been

enough evidence against him. If I say information which he

could possibly have given was that he could have given

information about SAP members and he could have been

subjected to intimidation, especially the black members,

their homes were attacked, petrol-bombs were thrown at their

houses. In some cases some of them were killed. And the

information which he could have passed on, for instance, he

could have revealed the identity of any

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 120 CAPT MENTZ

informers. We all ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you don't know of anything, you are

now speculating. Do you know what the reason was or not?

CAPT MENTZ: Nobody told me, but that is the inference that

I drew, that he was passing on information.

ADV DE JAGER: But the nature of the information and exactly

what it was about, that is something that you are

speculating on.

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know. I continue. The middle of the

last paragraph. It must, however, be remembered that I was

a non-commissioned officer and my senior officer did never

completely confide in me about everything, and in this case

De Kock did not take me into his confidence by telling me

exactly why the Askari was eliminated, as I have already

said, that is an inference which I drew.

I, in my earlier evidence also said how I regarded

instructions from De Kock, that he was in liaison with head

office and that the generals would have approved it. I

regarded it as part of the struggle against the ANC at that

stage, and regarded it as the elimination of an ANC activist

and terrorist who had returned to the ANC.

JUDGE WILSON: You keep calling people terrorists, when you

have no basis for doing it whatsoever. You don't know what

this person had done, you don't know why he was killed.

CAPT MENTZ: I will correct that, Chairperson. I will call

them - I will call him the particular askari, or the askari

involved.

I have already said here that I found out that it was

Johannes Maboti.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, let us just stop there for a

moment with the actions of Vlakplaas at that stage. The

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 121 CAPT MENTZ

conduct and actions of the Vlakplaas people, against whom

was it directed?

CAPT MENTZ: Against the liberation movements and fighters,

organisations such as the ANC, PAC, the enemies of the

Government of the day, who was the National Party.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In all cases?

CAPT MENTZ: In all cases.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the way you saw it at the time, were

the operations launched by the people at Vlakplaas,

undertaken by them, was it approved by the commanding

officers in head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's how I saw it and I still believe

that today.

ADV DU PLESSIS: As you saw it at the time, and today as

well, relating to that particular time, were the Vlakplaas

members involved in the elimination of ordinary criminals?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were they involved in the elimination of

any other persons that you know of?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not as far as I am aware.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now bearing that in mind, Capt Mentz, I

want to ask you what is the possibility, and I don't want

you to speculate, I am asking you in the light of your

evidence, what is the possibility that the operation against

this particular person could have been something other than

an operation against the ANC or liberation movements or a

person who was an enemy of the State?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, it was specifically aimed

at the ANC/PAC.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Please just listen to my question. Please

just listen carefully to my question. I want to ask you,

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 122 CAPT MENTZ

arising from what you have just testified about, the

background, the way in which Vlakplaas operated, the fact

that you said that Vlakplaas only operated against ANC

activists and terrorists and people who belonged to

liberation movements, the fact that you said that they did

not act against criminals, did not eliminate criminals and

did not eliminate other people, what is the possibility that

this askari could have been a common criminal or just a

normal person who was eliminated?

CAPT MENTZ: According to me there was no such possibility.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the political motive, the

general justification you will find on page 110 to page

... (intervention).

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry Mr du Plessis before you get there

because you made a whole lot of assumptions, summed up in

one word, askari. You said what other possibilities, what

other reasons could have existed for the elimination of an

askari. Once you use the word askari, you have made a lot

of assumptions. You have assumed that this person, as we

have come to understand what the word askari means, you

already assume that this person must have at some stage have

been a so-called terrorist, in the ranks of the ANC. He

came back, kept at Vlakplaas, Vlakplaas, all these things

you are assuming at once, once you use the word askari. I

think what Mr Mentz should tell us is why do you think this

man was an askari, on what basis?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, could I put it this way, the

askaris were not only at Vlakplaas. In some cases some of

them were placed out to other security branches such as in

Natal, Durban. There were people there who worked with

askaris, in the Cape as well, and in other cities as well.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 123 CAPT MENTZ

They also had their own askaris who came from Vlakplaas.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man have been arrested for

stocktheft?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man just have been captured?

Maybe he was, as you say, he was a terrorist, he had just

been captured, he was not as yet an askari, he was not as

yet converted into an askari.

CAPT MENTZ: No, right at the outset of my application I

said that De Kock had told me that he wanted to find out

what the askari could tell him, what he wanted to say.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh I see you got it from him, from de Kock.

Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you do make reference that way on

page 105, and that is the last paragraph of your

application.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, perhaps we should just follow

through the questions they have asked you to their logical

conclusion, in the light of what Judge Mgoepe has just said.

Bearing in mind the way in which Vlakplaas operated as I

have asked you just now, operated against enemies of the

State, terrorists, members of liberation movements, this was

an askari. So is it possible that this was an action by

Vlakplaas members against one of their own people, without

him being in any way involved in liberation movements or

being a supporter or a sympathiser of the liberation

movements?

CAPT MENTZ: No, no, they wouldn't have.

ADV DU PLESSIS: According to your view?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 124 CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could we then turn to the political

motivation. You confirm that in general, from page 110 to

page 115. And then on page 115 the third paragraph, the

second line after the word "duties", is that sentence

correct? "Although I was not a member of the security

branch"?

CAPT MENTZ: No, that should be scrapped. From the third

paragraph, "although I was not a member of the security

branch". That is a mistake on our side. This came out when

I was stationed at Murder and Robbery. Then I was not a

member of the security branch, so this is incorrect in this

application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, do you confirm the rest of the

political motivation?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 115?

ADV DU PLESSIS: 115 Mr Chairman, yes.

JUDGE MALL: What sentence is that?

ADV DU PLESSIS: The sentence in the third paragraph, after

the comma in the second line, is the word "pligte" (duties)

and it must come out from the word "alhoewel" (although)

until the end of that sentence - "although I was not a

member of the security branch".

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That was just included by mistake.

Capt Mentz, do you confirm page 115 to 116?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On whose instructions were you operating?

CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE 125 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

Captain, page 115, the second paragraph,

"The political objective was to combat terrorism

to combat the destabilisation of the country and

also to try and combat the enemies of the State,

who tried to topple the State, including the ANC

and the PAC,

how applicable is this to the askari who was eliminated?

JUDGE MALL: What is the question?

ADV MPSHE: How applicable is this paragraph to the

eliminated askari? In other words, does he fall within the

categories mentioned here?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, if he had passed on information, as I

believed he had, he had been an askari in the police, that's

what I believed he passed on information back to the ANC and

that would have, it would have helped the ANC/PAC in their

struggle to topple the government.

ADV MPSHE: But that's just an assumption you are making.

CAPT MENTZ: That's what I believed at the time.

ADV MPSHE: With reference to this man, that is an

assumption you are making now?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, this askari.

ADV MPSHE: Now if we use the word askari and we accept as

you say that he was an askari, that would tell us that he

was on your side, on the National party's side, not so?

CAPT MENTZ: At first, the way I saw it, an askari, was that

he was first a freedom fighter, and he had then been

arrested by the security police and they had then turned him

or got him so far as to assist us, became an askari with us,

received a police salary and notwithstanding that, whilst he

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE 126 CAPT MENTZ

was doing his duties, he then fed information, which he

obtained, back to the ANC or PAC, whatever the case may be.

That is as far as I see an askari.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, let's be specific. Is my understanding

correct, that if you label, if you say this person is an

askari, that means that he is now working for the security

forces?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes. Yes, in other words he was a double

agent. He made as if he was working for the security forces

...(intervention)

ADV MPSHE: That may be so Colonel I just want to know

whether this is the position about an askari, that's all.

CAPT MENTZ: That's how I saw it.

ADV MPSHE: If he was an askari and as you have agreed with

me, he was working for the security forces, what political

motivation did exist for him to be eliminated if he was

working for the security forces?

CAPT MENTZ: But I told you - pardon. I said that this man

was apparently working for the security police, but then

that would have been a front. He pretended to work for us

whilst at the same time leaking sensitive information back

to the ANC/PAC. That's what I believed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Isn't is so that in fact the askaris who

would normally be killed, would be those who were regarded

as being a risk to the security forces?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Those who were not regarded as a risk, those

who were in the eyes of the security branch were reliable

wouldn't be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It's only those who would be regarded as

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE 127 CAPT MENTZ

being a risk in the sense of being double agent, that will

be killed?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you are saying that in your view, rightly

or wrongly, the deceased in this case fell into that

category for those who were a risk?

CAPT MENTZ: According to the way I saw it, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it not correct that they would also be

killed if they were a danger to the unit in that if they

were going to expose the unit? In the operations of the

unit they would be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members. You must

have covered my area.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

ADV DE JAGER: Just to get some clarification here. The two

of you never drove in the same vehicle from Vereeniging to

Penge Mine?

CAPT MENTZ: No. So I don't know what happened or what was

said in that vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say that when you arrived there the

chair had already been prepared, it was at a mine at some

kind of excavation there.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in command there at Penge Mine?

CAPT MENTZ: Warrant Officer Snor Vermeulen and Warrant

Officer Lionel Snyman.

ADV DE JAGER: They did not accompany you from Vereeniging,

they didn't drive with you from Vereeniging, you just found

them there?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I found them there.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER 128 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DE JAGER: So could we then assume from the fact that

preparations had already been made, that they must have

received instructions where you were not present?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 107, Captain, the second, first and

second lines, you talked about when you arrived at Penge

Mine,

"The askari was handcuffed to a pole. We then

continued drinking."

where did you start drinking on this day?

CAPT MENTZ: If I remember correctly, Chairperson, De Kock

and I stopped somewhere beforehand and we bought beer or

something.

JUDGE WILSON: Where?

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember specifically.

JUDGE WILSON: And who provided the drink now?

CAPT MENTZ: We had bought this liquor.

JUDGE WILSON: You bought some beer which you drank and then

you bought some more you brought along for a party. Is that

the position when you were going to kill the man?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, we bought a lot of alcohol, of drink.

JUDGE WILSON: And of what sort?

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember, I think it was beer, but I

can't remember. It might have been, there might have been

strong drink as well.

JUDGE WILSON: And you all drank there before you killed

this man?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MALL: Was this man questioned at all in your

presence?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, no, not where I was present, but

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL 129 CAPT MENTZ

I can remember when we were drinking there, it was a whole

crowd of us. I think that De Kock and one or two others

spoke to the man. He was tied up quite a distance away from

us. If I can sketch the scene, if you enter the mine then

there is a building and lean-to's on the left-hand side and

I - that was Snyman and Vermeulen's base where they slept.

Because they arrived there a couple of days before us. We

sat under the lean-to there and we made a fire and the

askari was tied up quite some distance away from us, tied up

to this pole. And not within earshot, and I think De Kock

and one or two of the others spoke to the man at some stage,

but I was not present during any conversation.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have a braai there?

CAPT MENTZ: No, sir.

JUDGE MALL: The man was not questioned in your presence?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: The second point I want to ask you about, is

you told us in your evidence that you found this incident

"totally unacceptable".

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you ask for a transfer from Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: At a later stage I ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: After this incident that you found totally

unacceptable?

CAPT MENTZ: Not directly afterwards, but at a later stage I

was transferred to another unit.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but why didn't you, if it was totally

unacceptable, this sort of behaviour, why didn't you ask for

a transfer?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was part of an elite unit. It

was at that stage seen as an elite unit in the security

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON 130 CAPT MENTZ

police. I associated myself with the fact that the man was

being killed or was killed, but as I testified already, they

could have done it differently. They could have, for

instance, blindfolded the man or shot him from behind, and

it worried me that he was actually looking straight at them

when they killed him.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it more important to you be part of this

so-called elite unit than to do what you regarded as morally

right?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I believed that somebody had to do

this dirty work to prop-up the Government of the day and to

combat ANC and PAC terrorists. Somebody had to do it. If

everybody had asked for transfers who was to do this work,

and that's why I thought I would stay there.

JUDGE WILSON: So although it was totally unacceptable to

you, you would have us believe that, you nevertheless

thought you would stay there to do this sort of work. Is

that what you are telling us?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But would it have been safe for you to ask

for a transfer immediately after this incident?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir, I have testified about that as well,

because then the chances were that I could just one night be

shot through a window in my home. The issue here was not

the colour of your skin, but if you were a threat for such a

unit in the security police, the chances were that you could

also be eliminated, anybody could be eliminated. I was

scared, I was afraid of De Kock.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, I know you have already testified

that it was very difficult to question orders of your

superiors. In this case you had taken quite a major leap by

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

MS KHAMPEPE 131 CAPT MENTZ

asking De Kock where you were going to on arrival at De Deur

police station, and after seeing there the askari getting

into Mr Brits' car, did you not ask for more details about

what the askari was going to be questioned about?

CAPT MENTZ: I did ask De Kock where we were going, because

I was driving the car and I had to know where to drive to. I

can't specifically remember what De Kock and I discussed, it

is a long time ago, but that's why I say I believe that this

askari was a double agent. I can't say specifically what I

asked him and what he said, because I can't remember.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But was the askari already tied at that time?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So it was not yet apparent that he was going

to be killed?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I only saw that as Boschkop. That is where

I made the conclusion.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you earlier testified that you were

not one of De Kock's confidantes.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, during the first time I testified I

explained that I had initially been taking De Kock around.

No not today, but earlier on. Later on I worked away from

him.

ADV DE JAGER: I do not think it is very clear whether or

not you are expressing yourself correctly or whether it is

the interpretation, I just want to put something to you, as

I understand your evidence. You associated yourself with

the fact that people had to be killed during the struggle in

which you were involved between the liberation movements and

the police?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You, however, did not associate yourself with

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER 132 CAPT MENTZ

the method used to kill this person?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: What aspect of the method was unacceptable to

you?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this askari had to know that he was

going to be killed. Now he is walking with us, in front of

us, he is cuffed, he sees this chair. He was a trained

terrorist, he knows what explosives look like. He was tied

to the chair and they shoot him. I cannot remember

specifically his face or where they shot him. If they

wanted to execute him, I would say shoot him from the back

or blindfold him so that he couldn't see it. I never - I

felt that this wasn't right. It bothered me.

JUDGE MALL: So is the position that up to now we will never

know why this man was killed, is that it? What the precise

reason was.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, except for what I believe, we won't

be able to ascertain that, that it was my impression.

JUDGE MALL: Yes no apart from impressions, you never learnt

from De Kock or your superiors precisely why he was killed

and nor did you ask?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it might be that they told me, but I

can't remember specifically.

JUDGE MALL: So we are left in the dark as far as this

Committee is concerned, we won't know why?

CAPT MENTZ: Except, Mr Chair, for the fact that all the

persons I have mentioned have applied to this Committee and

they will testify about that.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether De Kock was accused of

this murder?

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

133 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: We will take an adjournment at this stage.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, re-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Yes, we move onto the next matter.

EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the next matter

you will find on page 128. Capt Mentz, this incident took

place in April 1989 - in 1992, pardon. Page 129, before you

start with your evidence, Capt Mentz. What was the position

regarding the bringing in of weapons into the Republic after

negotiations have started with the ANC and the PAC, let's

say from 1990?

CAPT MENTZ: There was an increased number of smugglings

from neighbouring states.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What was the purpose of this smuggling of

weapons, in general?

CAPT MENTZ: The weapons were smuggled after the banning of

the liberation movements have been lifted. The weapons we

concentrated on were weapons that were brought in for in

case the negotiations between the ANC, PAC and the National

Party would have been abandoned, so that the weapons could

possibly have been used if the liberation movements wanted

to return to the liberation struggle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you continue on page 129, can you just

please read to the Committee.

CAPT MENTZ: From 1991 at Vlakplaas, weapon smuggling was

investigated, amongst others, on the Mozambique border. The

weapons were suspected to be brought through the Komatipoort

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 134 CAPT MENTZ

as well as over the border fence. Lieut Chappies Klopper

was in command of this operation. He is now a State witness

and worked for National Intelligence with Willie Nortjé.

There were various members of units, C10 as well as from

the special task force there at this specific operation.

If I can mention some of the task force members. Sarel

Jansen van Rensburg, Ashley Crookes, Floors De Jonge and

Andre Laas. The last three were all under officers. There

were furthermore Ovambo Koevoet members. These were members

who fought in the Koevoet war in Ovamboland, and they were

under the command of the South African Police in South

Africa now. These were Lucas Khimelo and a certain Simon

Higinbamgwasa - (I don't know how to spell it), as well as

other Black members, whose names I can't remember.

Information was received that weapons were being

smuggled or would be smuggled for giving them to the ANC and

the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina vehicle.

I cannot remember who told me that the weapons would be

given to the ANC, but I suspected that it was Willie Nortjé.

The Koevoet members had an appointment with the

activists in order to ambush them. When I speak here of an

ambush, I don't mean an ambush to kill them. The purpose

was to meet them in a police ambush and to arrest them. We,

together with the task force members took position next to

the road in the veld. I can perhaps just explain that our

purpose was that when Lucas Khimelo met them on the dirt

road and when they saw the weapons and were paid with cash,

if they gave this cash money to those people, that would

have been the sign and we would have jumped out of the

bushes from the side of the road and arrested them. In the

past we already had already had such operations where they

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 135 CAPT MENTZ

were prosecuted in a normal court.

Lucas Khimelo and the other members of Koevoet waited

in this dirt road. They had their own vehicle there. They

would then meet the weapon smugglers there. Approximately

seven o'clock that evening, this vehicle had not arrived.

The command was given by Willie Nortjé that we must retreat

and we went to Schoemaas, that was the police base close-by

where we stayed and we went there to rest. We started

drinking at the canteen and we used a lot of alcohol. I was

under the influence of alcohol during the further events.

Later that evening Lucas Khimelo and his members came

back to Schoemaas. They then first called Lucas Nortjé and

somebody else to the side and the others of us were later on

called and we had a meeting. There were quite many of us,

of Koevoet members from C10, from Vlakplaas as well as task

force members and also the local security branch members.

Later that evening we were told by Lucas Khimelo that him

and the Koevoet members drove into the smugglers. When they

drove into them the smugglers told them to go into a double

track road because they didn't want to be in the main dirt

road there, because it was carrying heavy traffic. Khimelo

followed them and told us that the smugglers had weapons in

their car and that they were afraid that they would be

robbed by these people. They then decided to eliminate

these people by shooting them. Because the police action

during that stage was sensitive and because C1 Vlakplaas

used ex-Koevoet members, this evoked a lot of criticism from

the National Party and it was a problem. After the

smugglers have been shot, Khimelo returned and told us what

had happened. First Cronje and Klopper and then us. It was

then discussed and we planned the operation.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 136 CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz can we stop there please. Were

you at all involved in the shootings?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I wasn't, I was only present, I wasn't

present there, I was only present afterwards.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words what you are saying happened

there, is based on what you heard.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please continue.

CAPT MENTZ: During this discussion it was decided that it

would create a problem if it was mentioned that the Ovambo

Koevoet members shot the smugglers, because at that stage

there were various rumours that the security police were

involved in so-called Third Force activities and

specifically Vlakplaas, by, amongst others, Dirk Coetzee and

Nofomela. In other words, the information that came from

this incident would of course place further pressure on the

South African Police and the Government.

At that stage negotiations were started and there were

negotiations between the ANC and the PAC and the National

Party and other such liberation movements. If it came to the

knowledge that the NP Government was compromised by the

police, it would make the negotiations difficult. There was

then decided that we had to restructure the operation to

make it seem as if the smugglers were shot by the task force

members. The reason for that was that they were not accused

of being involved in Third Force activities, but because it

was actually an operational division of the police. We

didn't want to embarrass the Government.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, if it had been known that this

- if this operation came to the fore, would it have been to

the - would it have been a good thing for the security

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 137 CAPT MENTZ

police?

CAPT MENTZ: Definitely. It would have helped the ANC or

the PAC, because it would have shown that while they were

negotiating with the Government of the day, that the police

were using ex-Koevoet Ovambo members to eliminate some of

their members. It would not have been good for the

Government of the day.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you go on on page 132, please.

CAPT MENTZ: I was then ordered by Lieut Chappies Klopper to

help with the reconstruction of the event, because I have

had experience at Murder and Robbery. I did this. Nobody

would have believed that weapon smugglers would have sold

weapons to five white men. Therefore, the car was taken

back to the main road.

These people were shot in a small double track road and

we decided that the story would have been that we were

waiting in the vehicle until the white Cortina came back.

The informant said this specifically that it would have been

a Cortina. We then would follow the white Cortina and we

would have approached the vehicle from the back. We would

also say that we were shot on from the vehicle and that we

shot, then shot back. It would then be said that the four

people in the vehicle were killed.

In the boot we found various illegal weapons, amongst

others, AK47 weapons, an RPG7 and also RPK and Makorov

pistols. The four bodies were taken out and put in our

mini-bus. We had a combi mini-bus so the four bodies were

put upon, on top of each other in the back and a blanket was

thrown over them. The cartridges were picked up and we then

left them. We took the empty cartridges to the road and

left them there.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 138 CAPT MENTZ

We then went to Schoemaas with the four bodies. We

didn't go into Schoemaas, but we only hooted at the gate and

they came. They knew that we would find them, see them in a

house at the back of Schoemaas. We waited for Willie Nortjé

and Chappies Klopper to join us there.

While we were waiting somebody, I can't remember who,

made the remark in a joke that one is still living. These

bodies were put one upon the other. There was a blanket

over them. It was very dark. We stopped next to the house.

I took out my pistol and shot at one of the bodies. It must

have been the top body. It was dark and I could not see. I

could not see who I shot or where I shot that person,

although I hit the body. I don't know exactly where. At

that stage I was certain that all of them were dead.

My actions there I can describe as very tense and

drunk, irrational, something I would not normally have done.

I was so frustrated and angry at these people who brought in

the weapons, still while we were negotiating - while there

were negotiations going on. I was very drunk and angry and

frustrated. I did this.

The shot I fired did not cause any injury or death. I

was under the influence of liquor. I would not have done

this under normal circumstances. The bodies were then taken

to the mortuary in Komatipoort. The bodies were taken to

the mortuary. A dossier was opened. I then made an

affidavit on this, which was not a true and correct

explanation of the event. It was done for the reasons

above.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The specific reasons you mention here, are

these the reasons you also testified about just now? The

reasons about the fixing of the scene?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 139 CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were these the reasons relating to the

problems of the information being made known?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please page to 135. Are these

the names of two persons involved?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's right. The other two we you could

not identify.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The political motivation and general

motivation from page 136 up to 140 and on 141, the second

paragraph, you want to change something. What do you want

to remedy there?

CAPT MENTZ: In the third line. The original operation was

- I want to take the word "moontlik" (possibly) out, weapons

and in the "in" must be "to".

ADV DU PLESSIS: And on the next page 142, at the bottom,

you say in whose, on whose orders you acted?

CAPT MENTZ: I acted on the orders of Chappies Klopper and

Willie Nortjé. They gave me the orders and therefore I

believed that Eugene de Kock would have approved these

orders, because I knew that Willie Nortjé called De Kock

before we went out to go and remedy the scene.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on the next page you said that the

prosecution took place in the Supreme Court. You also have

a copy of the - the case is still hanging, in any case. Oh,

sorry, of the charge sheet. A copy of the charge sheet has

been attached.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I see the charge sheet was

never attached. It is in my possession if the Committee

would want a copy thereof.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 140 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Does the charge sheet give the names of all

four people who had been killed?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, perhaps I will have a look, I

have it in my possession. If the cross-examination can go

on, I will look for it and I will give you an indication. I

don't think so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you would

like to put to this witness?

ADV MPSHE: I don't have questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MALL: You have referred to these persons who are

bringing the arms in as smugglers, is that right?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, Mr Chair, smugglers of the

liberation movements.

JUDGE MALL: I want to know why you say they were smugglers

of the liberation movements, what proof is there that they

were smuggling for the liberation movement and were not

people who were merely selling arms to the highest bidder?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I know that some of these people we

questioned in the past, said that these weapons were going

to Natal for attacks on Inkatha, and people were arrested on

the East Rand who had of these weapons in their possession.

They, during questioning, said that they give it to the

liberation movements. I did not speak to these specific

four, but I believe it was concerning this matter.

JUDGE MALL: They may be lying of course, they may be

running a business, selling arms to people who want to buy

them, to ordinary criminals?

CAPT MENTZ: That is possible, Mr Chairman, some of these

people were also found guilty in different cases, but it is

possible.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON 141 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE WILSON: Found guilty of what?

CAPT MENTZ: Possession of weapons and selling weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: The questions asked mean that if that - would

that person not possibly have supplied me with those weapons

if I offered them a higher price?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, they would definitely or

certainly not have sold weapons to anybody. We got onto

them because of informants, who - Nortjé handled them

through Khimelo. They would not have sold to strange people.

They would have had to contact informants. But if we did

this, it would have been possible.

JUDGE MALL: If a warlord or leader of a gang was interested

in getting arms, and made contact, he would be supplied arms

by these smugglers wouldn't he?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is possible, sir.

JUDGE MALL: And is there nothing to say that on this

occasion the arms that were being smuggled were for the ANC

on this occasion or the PAC?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I could not say specifically for whom

these weapons were intended. They might just as well have

gone to Inkatha. Furthermore, in my application before the

Commission I also apply for a certain event where we

received weapons from Inkatha, but from a specific person. I

believe that these weapons were going for a militant freedom

organisation. The political parties murdered each other on

the trains and everywhere.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the evidence, your evidence,

your agents were going to buy these guns from these people.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and then arrest them.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were not bringing the guns in to give

to known ANC or other activists whom they knew, they were

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON 142 CAPT MENTZ

prepared to sell them and they were going to sell them to

your agents.

CAPT MENTZ: Our people pretended to be members of a

political party. I was not there when they spoke with them.

JUDGE MALL: That opens up all kinds of possibilities. If

your agents could have easily bought guns from them, the

suppliers don't seem to be particularly concerned about who

they were going to sell to. They weren't going to ask proof

from your agents whether they were members of the ANC or

PAC? They were quite happy to sell them.

CAPT MENTZ: That might be the case, but I believe that the

weapons were going to the ANC, the PAC or Inkatha.

JUDGE MALL: No, I don't understand it when you say you

believe it, we are now trying to test the reasonableness of

your belief.

JUDGE WILSON: You can't have believed they were going to

them. Haven't you told us that you set up an ambush, a trap

but when they bought the weapons the money was handed over,

you are going to jump out and arrest them?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, and we could have

interrogated further to find out to whom these weapons were

really going.

JUDGE WILSON: No the weapons were going to be sold there,

in front of your eyes.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, we would have arrested them and

we could have questioned them further.

JUDGE WILSON: Instead of which you went off and had a party

again?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, the operation was then cancelled. It

would not have continued. We then went, we had a braai and

we drank. That was all that we could do at Komatipoort.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL 143 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Who gave instructions to the leader of the

Koevoet from your group, or under whose orders were Koevoet

acting?

CAPT MENTZ: They were divided at Vlakplaas into certain

units. They were under the command of Gen De Kock at C10.

There were also other ex-Koevoet members who were used as

trackers at other branches. All of them weren't with us.

JUDGE MALL: I'm talking about this particular occasion.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just point out and I

should have done that perhaps at the beginning. Amnesty is

not sought for murder in this matter. Amnesty is simply

sought for being an accessory after the fact for - for

perjury and obstruction of justice. I am just making that

point Mr Chairman because of the fact that we are not asking

for amnesty for murder.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, they were under the command of Lieut

Klopper and Nortjé.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it therefore reasonable to conclude that

when these people were killed by the Koevoet, they were

acting under instructions from Klopper or Nortjé?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it is difficult to tell, because

Nortjé was with me and some of the other task force members

before they were shot, we were together. We then withdrew.

I do not know what orders Nortjé gave them further on, but

I think they acted on their own, on the spur of the moment.

JUDGE MALL: What about Klopper?

CAPT MENTZ: To my knowledge, I can't remember whether

Klopper later spoke with them before these people were shot.

It might be the case but I have no knowledge.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I understand you to say that you helped in

covering up this incident because you were worried that the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE 144 CAPT MENTZ

disclosure thereof would have embarrassed or weakened the

Government, or being to the advantage of the ANC or PAC

during negotiations?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What I don't understand is, why would that be

so? The people killed would have been simply arms

smugglers. How can that - I am trying to wonder whether

everybody in the country would not have been happy that arms

smugglers were killed?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, if I remember correctly, it was

in the news and in the newspapers that the Government

allowed that ex-Koevoet members, Ovambos, operated with the

security branch and specifically Vlakplaas and Vlakplaas'

reputation how they could go and shoot these people. They

didn't want - they didn't want the police to employ these

ex-Ovambo members, but it was still done.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In fact I think the feelings were very strong

against these Koevoet members?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So basically when you discovered the

Vlakplaas people had killed them, it was a cover-up now for

the security police and Vlakplaas - the Koevoet people who

killed them, sorry. When the Koevoet people came back and

said they had killed them, you covered up to save the name

of the security police and Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you please explain to us, members of

Koevoet were members who - were they South African citizens?

CAPT MENTZ: Some of them, but not all of them. The South

African white policemen who served in Ovamboland, like in my

case, I went for three months at a time, and we were a

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER 145 CAPT MENTZ

normal counter-insurgence unit, some of these members then

applied for staying there for very long, for a year or two

years, and they were then members of the Koevoet team.

When I say Ovambo members, they were members from South West

- now Namibia. They then also worked with the tin units,

the counter-insurgence units. They could - they were very

good at warfare. There were also Ovambo members, together

with Koevoet.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there in South Africa feelings against

Koevoet?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they regarded as members of a Third

Force?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And now if you covered this event up, was it

for the protection of Koevoet or for the protection of the

Government, in whose service they were?

CAPT MENTZ: The security police, the police and the

Government in whose service they were.

JUDGE MALL: Did I understand your answer to be that your

action was taken in the interest of the South African

Government and the South African Police? Is that what you

are saying?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the security police, the police as a whole

and the police who pursued the objectives of the Government

of the day, which was the National Party Government.

JUDGE MALL: But if you were directly implicating and

holding out to the world that this action was performed by

the police, by the South African Police or a Vlakplaas unit,

if that is what you were going to hold out to the world how

was that protecting the police?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL 146 CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: The false plan which we had was to say that it

was the task force, the special operational unit which had

shot these people. Then no questions would have been asked.

But the moment you mention that it was Koevoet members or

Vlakplaas members, then it was a problem.

RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

At that stage were the actions of specially the Vlakplaas

unit,was it still directed against the liberation movements?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the Vlakplaas involvement in this

event, if that was disclosed, would that have a prejudicial

effect on the Vlakplaas operation?

CAPT MENTZ: I believe so, because if I remember correctly,

just after this it was insisted that people such as De Kock

and other persons who were known to the ANC, that they had

to leave the police. I think it was one of the ANC's

requirements for further negotiations, and that in fact

happened, they packages and our unit was disbanded just

after that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz on page 129, the bottom

paragraph, you said that information was received that

weapons were smuggled for making available to the ANC and

the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina.

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember who told me that the weapons

would be made available to the ANC.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But you think that it was Willie Nortjé?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now you have conceded that there is a

possibility that these people could have sold weapons to

other people. Now I want to ask you, what do you, in the

light of what you can remember, what was told to you, what

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 147 CAPT MENTZ

was more probable, would they have sold weapons to private

people or was it more probable that they would have sold

weapons to supporters of freedom fighters and movements?

CAPT MENTZ: No, they would rather - if they didn't sell it

to trained terrorists, they would have sold it to street

committees, the self-defence units and those kinds of bodies

and people.

JUDGE MALL: We are talking about this particular

consignment, not generally?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, this particular consignment.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, this particular one. We are speaking

of this specific consignment of weapons.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I believed that the weapons were going to

these people.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can I take you to page 132, the last two

sentences of the first paragraph, the middle of the page, it

starts with "the reason for that". The last two sentences

of the first paragraph. It is on page 132, it starts with

the words "the reason for that".

CAPT MENTZ: The reason for that was that they were not

accused of Third Force activities and they were actually the

operational section. There was already a kind of a stigma

attached to Vlakplaas at the time that they were involved in

Third Force activities.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Thank you, you are excused.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, before the witness is excused.

In respect of the matter of Brian Ngqulunga, we did some

research and we got hold of parts of the record of the

evidence in the Eugene de Kock trial, and we also are going

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 148 CAPT MENTZ

to be placed in possession this evening of the excerpts of

Ngqulunga's evidence before the Harms Commission, which we

deem important for this Committee. Now I have in my

possession bundles of the evidence in the De Kock trial,

especially, well, actually the evidence of Warrant Officer

Nortjé. I intend to hand that in to the Committee, but what

I want to do, Mr Chairman, and it is going to be very short,

is refer you to one or two pages in the evidence and ask

Capt Mentz's commentary on that, if you will allow me to.

JUDGE MALL: Is Nortjé going to come to give evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Pardon, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Will Nortjé be coming to give evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: He is a State witness, Mr Chairman, I am

not sure - not in this application. Not in this

application. He is a State witness, I am not sure if he is

applying for amnesty.

JUDGE MALL: Don't know whether he has.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Or whether he has, I don't know. But as

far as I know all State witnesses did apply for amnesty, so

we can accept that he probably did.

JUDGE MALL: You would like to put portions of the evidence

given by Nortjé in that case to this witness?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want his comments.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I want his comments on that.

JUDGE MALL: Does it affect him or implicate him?

ADV DU PLESSIS: There is mention of him in the evidence, Mr

Chairman. I may mention - perhaps I can give you an idea of

the purpose thereof, and if the Committee doesn't deem it

important or necessary, then we can dispense with it.

There are two aspects which become clear from the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 149 ADDRESS

evidence. The first one is that there was a plan to

eliminate Ngqulunga, apparently and that was the - what Capt

Mentz testified about that he heard later, apparently

because there was a worry that he would become scared

because of the false evidence that he gave in front of the

Harms Commission.

Nortjé also secondly, confirms the fact that there was

a second reason for killing Ngqulunga, and that is that he

was a person who was giving information to the ANC. He does

refer in his evidence to that fact. I can point that out to

you.

Then thirdly, the evidence indicates that people high

up in the security headquarters knew exactly what happened

in this incident, with Ngqulunga.

Fourthly, Mr Chairman - pardon, I lost the point now.

If you could just bear with me. If you could just bear with

me, Mr Chairman. Oh, the last point was that there is also

evidence in this record pertaining to the fact that De Kock

wanted the people who were involved in this matter, that is

Bellingham, Botha, Baker and Mentz, and especially Baker and

Bellingham, to be tied up with an incident such as this, so

as to have a hold over them. That is the gist of what I

wanted his comments on. I can, however, just hand it in and

deal with that in argument, if the Committee doesn't deem it

necessary to hear any evidence on this.

JUDGE MALL: I think you may proceed by putting that to your

witness.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I beg leave to

hand up sets of the copies of the record of Nortjé's

evidence. It is thick but I am going to refer you to just

the relevant pages. That would be, I think EXHIBIT AA, Mr

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 150 CAPT MENTZ

Chairman.

EXHIBIT AA HANDED IN

Mr Chairman, I want to place on record that I haven't

provided Mr Mpshe with a copy of this, which I perhaps

should have done earlier in this week and it is my mistake

that I didn't do that. If he needs to ask any questions

about that, he has got a problem with that, then that's my

fault. May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, sure.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, am I correct that this is

Exhibit AA?

JUDGE MALL: Annexure AA, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Exhibit AA.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, could we turn to page 7 of this

volume. I would like you to read the second last paragraph

of Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence. He says he would like

to also tie up Bellingham and Baker to certain incidents, on

the next page, because they are not yet directly involved.

They haven't as yet been contaminated, as we called it, and

he decided that the two of them - he would use the two of

them. Actually he went for Baker. And then he says

further, and he then gave them instruction, after we rented

the combis, or they knew that they were going with. He then

called in Wouter Mentz and Piet Botha. Mentz had just been

transferred from Murder and Robbery at that stage. He

hadn't been there for very long.

Now could you comment on this for the Committee, about

the whole issue of the contamination and the purpose and the

whole modus operandi?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I don't know why De Kock gave

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 151 CAPT MENTZ

Baker and Bellingham these instructions and that he wanted

to contaminate them. I don't have any knowledge of that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could I ask you, were you aware of the fact

that that was the way in which De Kock operated, to involve

people in certain events, to contaminate them as such?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I misunderstood, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now in your case, if you were involved in

certain events, would it have created a problem for you, if

you wanted to leave Vlakplaas or to talk about what happened

there?

CAPT MENTZ: It would, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Good I then take you to page 25. In the

middle of that page the question was asked do you know

whether people higher up knew of that? I believe they

would have been informed there, must have been informed. Is

that in line with your evidence?

JUDGE WILSON: My page 25 is blank for the top half of the

page.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes, that is the page I am on, Mr

Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So where are you starting from?

ADV DU PLESSIS: In the middle of the typed part?

JUDGE WILSON: In the middle of the typed portion?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it says - let me read the second

paragraph, "vanwaar af" - from Brig Van Rensburg's side who

was then the commanding officer, and do you know where the

people higher than him knew of this? I believe that they

would have been so informed, they must have been informed.

ADV DE JAGER: If you read the previous one it reads as an

instruction and the question was where did the instruction

come from?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 152 CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I would have rectified that now.

ADV DU PLESSIS: This deals with the instruction and where

it came from. Is that in line with how you remember it?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then the next question was, what,

according to you, was the reason why Brian Ngqulunga had to

be eliminated and the answer, because he wanted to talk

about Mxenge from Durban. That is one of the reasons. You

have already testified about that, that you were not aware

of that.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I didn't know anything about that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then he says Mxenge and on the next page he

says yes, let us assume that, let us accept that. He has

already testified to that before the Harms Commission? That

is correct. And on which occasion he also denied his

involvement of that. The answer was that is correct. And

then Capt Mentz you said that information came from

elsewhere, not from C1, but from elsewhere, that this man

had possibly changed tactics and went to talk to the ANC and

Nortjé said that is correct, that's how I understood it. Is

that in line with the information which you had received

relating to the reason for Brian Ngqulunga's elimination?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then it said, and from the top the

decision was taken that he must be eliminated.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Just bear with me, please, Mr Chairman.

Capt Mentz, just to complete the picture here, on page 45

from 21, lines 21 to the next page 22, there is once again

evidence about the contamination. Mr Chairman, I am just

drawing your attention to this, I have already asked the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 153 CAPT MENTZ

witness about this.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then on page 45 ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Page 45 which lines?

ADV DU PLESSIS: From line 20 onwards.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on page 48 from line 12, there

Nortje is testifying about the question of whether you had

been contaminated. The question was: did it justify the

choice of Mentz, motivate? No, but Mentz had just arrived

from Murder and Robbery at that stage and he had not yet

been contaminated. Yes, well, I suppose he was, but I don't

know whether he knew that he had done something wrong.

Did you know anything about this motivation to

contaminate you?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But is there a possibility that that is the

reason why you went on this operation?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have no further places but

Capt Mentz indicates he wants to say something about a

specific page. Could you please continue, Captain?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, on page 45, the second last

paragraph. Could I continue?

" It was the choice of the people who were

involved, who were to be involved in the

operation".

Chairperson, I don't agree with that. You were never given a

choice, you were never asked do you want to go with tonight

or not, you were just told, you never had a choice? ADV DE

JAGER: But does it here refer to your choice or

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 154 CAPT MENTZ

does it refer to the fact that he chooses you to go along on

the operation and once you were involved you were actually

caught up in the web and you were contaminated. Isn't that

the choice that he is referring to?

CAPT MENTZ: That's possible Chairperson, then maybe I

misunderstood it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, any other aspects which you would

like to comment on? I am not going into detail on all of

this. So please just page through and see whether there are

any other aspects you would like to comment on.

Captain Mentz, one last question. Insofar - I am not

going to refer you to each and every place here, but insofar

as Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence differs from what you

have testified, do you stand by what you have testified?

CAPT MENTZ: I stand by what I have testified.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions in this regard.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, in respect of this matter we

have also obtained affidavits from the other people who were

involved in this specific matter of Ngqulunga. Firstly,

there is an affidavit by Col Baker and then there is also an

affidavit by Col Bellingham or Capt Bellingham, I beg your

pardon. I beg leave to hand up copies of these affidavits.

The affidavit of Baker would then be EXHIBIT BB and the

affidavit of Bellingham EXHIBIT CC.

EXHIBITS BB AND CC HANDED IN

Mr Chairman, you will note that both these affidavits

say that they have perused the written amnesty application

of Capt Mentz, that they confirm the correctness of the

contents of the amnesty application of Capt Mentz,

pertaining to the nature and particulars, the date, the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 155 CAPT MENTZ

place, the name of the victim, the political objectives and

the particulars pertaining to the order given.

Then each of them say that,

"I wish to state that I will apply for amnesty for

this act myself, and that my amnesty application

will substantially contain the same evidence that

was contained in Capt Wouter Mentz's application,

as well as his testimony. I therefore support Capt

Mentz's amnesty application. I am of the view that

he has made full disclosure of all relevant facts

pertaining to this incident".

JUDGE WILSON: Does anything tie up this affidavit with the

incident that we are talking about?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it doesn't appear from the

affidavits themselves, but I was involved specifically with

drawing these affidavits, although I did not draw the final

version. That's why I see it now for the first time. It

does relate specifically to this fact. Capt Mentz can also

testify to that because he was present when this was done.

So I can give you a confirmation that this, it relates to

this specific incident.

JUDGE WILSON: Have they been present when he gave evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, they were not present when

he gave evidence, but there was a tape-recording made which

they listened to, of the evidence which Capt Mentz made

himself, Mr Chairman. But Mr Chairman, I am presenting this

affidavit mainly to confirm the correctness of the

application as it stands in the application papers.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you again, please, give us the

reference of Brian Ngqulunga's application, what was it?

Schedule ...?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 156 CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE WILSON: 53, page 53.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, it was on page 53,

Schedule 4. I beg your pardon for the oversight. I won't

say who was responsible for the final draft, Mr Chairman It

is my attorney sitting next to me, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you

wish to put this witness?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no questions to put to this

witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to respond quickly before the

Chair and the Committee members are perplexed by the

envelope that I have just sent up.

JUDGE MALL: Yes?

ADV MPSHE: The Chair and the Committee will recall that in

Pretoria I was requested to obtain Annexure A to the post-

mortem report of Brian Ngqulunga. Mr Chairman, I did take

some means of obtaining the Annexure A. I went to the

Garankua police station on the 4th of March 1997 and I was

referred to a Constable Chelo Lusaba who is dealing with

this type of matters. She together with another policeman

entered the store room and they looked for the docket, which

they could not find. Unfortunately I said to her that I

need a statement from her that the docket got lost in their

possession and she promised to fax it down to me, but she

has not done so.

Mr Chairman, in the meantime, I got hold of the

contents of the envelope before you. Now these are the

photos of Brian Ngqulunga where he was found, how he was

found and the wounds and everything that was done by the

police. I think this will or may substitute the absence of

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE 157 ADDRESS

Annexure A. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: This is in lieu of what we were expecting, that

was Annexure A to the post-mortem report?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: And Mr Du Plessis, have you had sight of this

document, these photographs and documents?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have had sight of the

documents.

JUDGE MALL: Well, these documents, including the

photographs will go in as Exhibit CC.

ADV MPSHE: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, is it not DD, Mr

Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: I'm sorry, EXHIBIT DD, you are right. Yes,

thank you.

EXHIBIT DD HANDED IN

JUDGE MALL: I have before me a memorandum which has just

been handed to us now. It is addressed to the Amnesty

Committee, from Mr Pik Botha. Do you have a copy, has that

been served on you?

ADV MPSHE: Yes, I have, thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, do you have a copy of that?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I do have a copy, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: We haven't had time to read this and I am

wondering whether we should take a short adjournment, to

enable you to read it as well, and to consider what you

should do about it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I have only received it now, Mr

Chairman. I would like to take it up with Brig Cronjé and

perhaps convey to the Committee just his view on this and

his reaction on this.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 158 ADDRESS

ADV DU PLESSIS: I cannot recall his evidence in any event

as having been to the effect that he factually knows or knew

that Minister Pik Botha knew about it. I will take it up.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, whether the Press may have reported it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it may have been reported differently.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. Before we take this

adjournment, apart from that, is there any other matter that

has to be dealt with?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, at this point in time, in

respect of evidence, there are no other matters. In respect

of the matter of Brig Cronjé relating to the Swapo incident,

we have decided to withdraw that matter.

JUDGE MALL: Alright, just let me get that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: With reservation of all our rights, Mr

Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Which number is it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that is page 39 of Brig

Cronjés application.

JUDGE WILSON: Schedule 2?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Schedule as, as it pleases you.

ADV DE JAGER: What do you exactly mean, withdraw with

reservation of all your rights?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, what I mean and I intended to

explain that now, is that we wish to consider our position

regarding this application. The cut-off date for the final

applications is in May and we want a little bit more time to

consider our position in this regard. If we make a decision

to launch an application in regard to this matter again, we

will do so. But at this point in time we have decided not

to go ahead at this point in time with that application, Mr

Chairman.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 159 ADDRESS

JUDGE MGOEPE: So are you just asking to have it removed

from our roll?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Or are you in fact withdrawing the

application?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, the effect is that I am asking for it

to be removed. What we will do is to, if we decide to go

ahead with the application, we will lodge a formal

application, again in the same fashion with the same

contents, just to make hundred per cent sure that there is

no problem. We, however, want some time to consider that

application and to decide if we really want to go ahead with

that application. So I am asking the Committee to strike it

from the roll of the hearings.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. You are granted leave to

remove this matter from the roll.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then

the only matter that - actually two matters that are left,

would be the record of the Harms Commission proceedings

which we will obtain this evening, and then Prof Robertse's

report. Now as I have pointed out to you in chambers, and I

can say that now here as well, I have had to have

discussions with some of my clients, the applicants, about

the question of the publication of the contents of that

report. I also had to convey that problem to Dr Robertse and

I am trying to reconcile everybody concerned in this matter

so that these reports can be made available to the

Committee, as public documents. I am in the process of

nearly finalising that and it will be finalised hopefully

later this afternoon. I cannot give you an indication

hundred per cent when. Dr Robertse, I spoke to him this

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 160 ADDRESS

morning, before the hearing started and he gave me an

indication that he would be able to finalise it throughout

the morning, but that he would - and he discussed it with

me, that he would have, would like to have one final short

discussion with Capt Hechter, and that is the position I

find myself in, Mr Chairman. I have done my utmost to have

it ready. I promised Monday, but there have been problems

with this.

....Page 156, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Page 39?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, that was in respect of the Swapo

incident. Are you asking me about the Swapo incident?

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That is at page 39.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I beg your pardon. I thought you

referred to the Gaberone bomb.

JUDGE MALL: We will adjourn at this stage to enable you to

consider this memorandum and for us to read it as well, and

we will resume at two o'clock.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, you asked no questions about the

Nortjé evidence. I am going to tell you that, if in the

interim you feel that you might want to consider the matter

and put questions, you will be allowed to do so. Alright,

we will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 161 CAPT MENTZ

ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE MALL: Mr du Plessis, the memorandum which has been

handed to me, is addressed to the Amnesty Committee and it

bears the date 12th of March 1997. In it Mr Botha records

the following, or rather what Mr Botha said was recorded as

follows: That he objects most strongly to the

unsubstantiated comments made by Mr Nortjé yesterday before

the CommittEe which apparently were not challenged by any

members of the Committee.

"According to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé

alleged that there was no doubt that I knew of a

security force plot to eliminate one of the master

minds of the 1983 Church Street bomb blasts in

Pretoria. According to the Press reports, Mr

Cronjé alleged that I publicly claimed that a

certain MacKenzie was an ANC member and that he

had blown up his own vehicle. Mr Cronjé then

stated that there was no doubt in his mind that I

knew what the true situation was. Mr Cronjé did

not indicate any source for this allegation.

The facts are that the Botswana Government

complained to the South African Government. The

Department of Foreign Affairs, as is the normal

practice, sent the Botswana Government's comment

to the South African Security Forces. The South

African Police responded that they had

incontrovertible evidence that MacKenzie was being

used by the ANC to transport weapons into South

Africa from Botswana. The SAP also said that they

had evidence that MacKenzie was in regular contact

with certain members of the ANC in Zambia and

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL 162

Botswana. The SAP assured the Department of

Foreign Affairs that the SAP was prepared to

provide access to evidence which supported the

facts which the SAP conveyed to the Department of

Foreign Affairs. The `incontrovertible evidence'

of the SAP was forwarded to the Botswana

Government in June 1987 in a formal note which was

released to the Press. It is obvious that Mr

Cronjé and his colleagues have supplied false

information to the Department of Foreign Affairs.

It is also obvious that after Mr De Klerk's

evidence that the Cabinet was often deceived by

certain members of the SAP dealing with these

matters. I consider Mr Cronjé's unsubstantiated

allegations as a disgraceful attempt to draw

attention away from his irresponsible activities.

I will be grateful if the Committee could ask Mr

Cronjé on what basis of fact he made these

allegations. Due to lack of time I have no other

means, but to convey the statement telephonically

to the Committee."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I firstly just want to place

on record, according to Mr Mpshe, the reference to Mr De

Klerk should be De Kock. I presume that's Eugene de Kock in

his evidence.

JUDGE MALL: You are right.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And that should be rectified.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Chairman, may I respond to this?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why do you say De Kock, Mr Du Plessis?

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 163 ADDRESS

ADV DU PLESSIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, I was asked by

Mr Mpshe. Perhaps he should address you on this.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was informed last by the person

who took the message, Mr John Allen, who spoke with Mr Botha

this morning. He says he has made a mistake, he didn't say

De Klerk but De Kock.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: He conveyed this to me.

JUDGE MALL: After Mr De Kock's evidence?

ADV MPSHE: That is correct.

JUDGE MALL: Well, on the assumption that this ought to

reflect Mr De Kock rather than Mr De Klerk, can we proceed

further with this matter?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I can respond to this, and I

would like Brig Cronjé to tell you exactly on what he based

his allegation, and I will call him as a witness in that

regard.

I firstly want to state that from Brig Cronjés point of

view I was asked to place on record, in respect of the

second last sentence, where Minister Botha said that it is

obvious that Mr Cronje and his colleagues have supplied

false information to the Department of Foreign Affairs, that

we reserve our rights in that regard. Mr Cronjé will give

evidence about that now, he will deny it, but that we also

reserve our rights pertaining to deal or specifically with

the purpose to deal with this allegation in a different

forum in this regard. We regard this as defamatory.

Now Mr Chairman, is it possible that I could call Brig

Cronjé to explain to the Committee exactly on what he bases

his evidence? Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Please do call him.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 164 BRIG CRONJE

MR DU PLESSIS CALLS

BRIG CRONJÉ: (sworn states).

EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you don't have

your application before you. I am going to read it to you,

the relevant part. You will find it on page 159 to 160.

You there testified, Brigadier - can you just read it to us

again, please, on the last paragraph of page 159:

BRIG CRONJE: "I remember when the bomb exploded, it may

the headlines in the papers. Botswana

complained to the South African Government.

It was alleged that MacKenzie was a member of

the ANC and that he blew up his own vehicle."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then the first paragraph on page 160 -

BRIG CRONJE: "I have no doubt in my mind that Minister

Botha had to know what the true situation

was."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please explain to the Committee

why you say that there could not have been any doubt in your

mind?

BRIG CRONJË: After the incident, I, myself, and Brig Loots,

were called to van der Merwe's office after the incident.

He wanted to find out exactly what had happened, how the

operation went wrong and everything about that operation,

because he said he would have to inform Minister Pik Botha.

To my mind, to inform means that you tell him the truth.

You do not want the true facts in order to inform him

falsely. I know Gen van der Merwe so well that I know that

he would not have lied to a Minister.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is it on those grounds that you said that

there was no doubt in your mind that Minister Botha knew?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, and furthermore, even MacKenzie had blown

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 165 BRIG CRONJE

up his own vehicle he would have been dead, he would not

have been living any more.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Do I understand you to mean that the

information that you gave to Gen van der Merwe, was in

accordance with the evidence that you are giving here now?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: That that is the information that you conveyed

to him?

BRIG CRONJË: I conveyed this information to Gen van der

Merwe, I never lied to my generals.

JUDGE MALL: And you don't know how that was conveyed to Mr

Pik Botha?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know.

JUDGE MALL: The report was made to Gen Van der Merwe by you

personally?

BRIG CRONJË: It was actually Brig Loots who informed him

about the operation, because it was not my operation, it was

Brig Loots'.

JUDGE MALL: And were you present throughout?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Any questions?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know anything about the formal note

which was released to the Press?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I read that in the papers.

JUDGE WILSON: And was that note correct, did it correctly

reflect what had happened?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the incorrect version?

BRIG CRONJË: That's correct.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON 166 BRIG CRONJE

JUDGE WILSON: Was that a note formally released to the

Press by the Department of Foreign Affairs?

BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you don't know where they got their

information from?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Chairman, I accept that it would have been

from Gen Van der Merwe.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier, I don't know whether you have the

memo in front of you, the affidavit. I would like you to

have one in front of you. The first or rather the second

paragraph Mr Botha is talking about reports he saw in the

Press now. He also says that according to the reports in

the Press, he now sees in the Press, he says Mr Cronjé, that

"an allegation was made that a certain MacKenzie was a

member of the ANC, was an ANC member and that he had blown

up his own vehicle. ".

BRIG CRONJË: That is what was in the paper, in today's

newspaper.

ADV DE JAGER: I am talking about the first article in the

first paper right after the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: I can't understand this memo. The way I read

it according to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé alleged.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, then I agree with you.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was the recent Press reports after you

have given evidence.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: You must please help me now because I do not

remember, I do not recall you saying that MacKenzie had been

an ANC member who blew up his own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I never said that. I said that MacKenzie

had been an informant and that his vehicle had been blown up

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER 167 BRIG CRONJE

by somebody else.

ADV DE JAGER: Therefore this quotation Mr Botha here

quotes, was read somewhere in a paper that gave the facts of

your evidence wrongly. And in the second paragraph, he

discusses what he then did. And there he nowhere says that

anybody told him that MacKenzie had blown up his own

vehicle. BRIG CRONJË: That's right.

ADV DE JAGER: He only says there that MacKenzie had been an

ANC agent who brought weapons to South Africa. Was that

not in accordance what you informed them at that stage, that

MacKenzie had transported weapons in the vehicle?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, that was what happened and what was in

the papers at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle had been registered in

MacKenzie's name.

BRIG CRONJË: I said that the number plates of the vehicle

were registered in MacKenzie's name.

ADV DE JAGER: But it was not said in this report that

MacKenzie had died in the incident or that he blew up his

own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJË: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he one of the masterminds of the 1983

Church Street bomb blast?

BRIG CRONJË: Mnisi was, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to

the brigadier?

ADV MPSHE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, before I excuse him, are there

any other questions you would like to put to him?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to clear up one

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 168 BRIG CRONJE

thing if you would give me one second, please.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, I just want to hear, was Mr Botha

advised that he has been implicated in this application?

ADV MPSHE: Not yet, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, he's been implicated in the application

itself, he wasn't implicated during the evidence.

ADV MPSHE: He was implicated during the evidence, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: No, on page 156 of the application he has

been implicated.

ADV MPSHE: Of the applicant's ...

ADV DE JAGER: Of the applicant's application.

ADV MPSHE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Or 159, I don't know, I haven't got the ...

ADV MPSHE: 160, no, no, I wasn't aware of it, he was not

involved.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Du Plessis?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Brigadier, these Press reports of Mr Botha where he makes

these allegations, did you see these Press articles

personally?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I did.

JUDGE MALL: Is that all?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that

the witness understood me.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, the Press releases I am talking

about, I am talking about this week's Press items.

BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

169 BRIG CRONJE

JUDGE MALL: Thank you very much, Brigadier.

BRIG CRONJË: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE MALL: This memorandum will be numbered as an EXHIBIT

EE.

EXHIBIT EE HANDED IN

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE MALL: Yes?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, then that concludes our work for

the day. What remains are the matters that are of non-

gross violations which as agreed upon earlier on, will be

dealt with in chambers. Mr Chairman, I am informed by my

learned friend about the psychiatrist's report, that it will

be available tomorrow, which would mean that the Committee

adjourns and indicate a time when we are to resume for the

purposes of that report.

JUDGE MALL: What is the earliest that the report will be

available, Mr Du Plessis?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, we are going directly to

Stellenbosch to see Prof Robertse. I could have it available

tonight. I want to try and make arrangements to fax it to Mr

Currin and it would be available early tomorrow morning. We

can deal with it at eight o'clock or earlier.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, if I turn up here at six

o'clock tomorrow and you haven't got that report here and

you ask for the matter to stand down ...

ADV DU PLESSIS: I won't Mr Chair.

JUDGE MALL: Very well, Gentlemen, the Committee will

adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, in the hope

that we will finalise this as soon as possible thereafter.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I will give you my undertaking

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

170

that tomorrow morning we will finalise it.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE MALL: Yes, Gentlemen?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we

have had an opportunity yesterday afternoon to visit Prof

Robertse in Stellenbosch. He did have another consultation

with Capt Hechter and we were able to sort out any problems

- all the problems regarding the report. It is possible for

me to hand in a report in respect of each of the five

applicants.

The report is accompanied by Prof Robertse's curriculum

vitae, as well as a letter in which he explains the fact

that he had to consult again with Capt Hechter, and that he

could not do that in Cape Town yesterday. I requested him

yesterday afternoon when we adjourned, if he could come to

Cape Town so that we could finalise it here and it might

have been possible to deal with this perhaps late yesterday

afternoon, but it wasn't possible. I beg leave to hand up

copies of the report to you.

Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with the contents

of the report at this point in time. I believe that would

be ANNEXURE FF, if my memory serves me correct.

Mr Chairman, the report is an extensive report. If I

can just give you a little bit of background about the

report. It is an extensive report, dealing with firstly,

post-traumatic stress, with specific emphasis on memory

loss, but not only that, as a general background. Then it

gives an evaluation of each of the applicants. It discusses

the problems that they currently have, as a result of the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 171 ADDRESS

actions they were involved in, and it specifically then also

deals with the question of memory loss. It does not only

deal with that question. It deals with a further variety of

issues which we deem important for purposes of argument in

this regard. Specifically with reference to the general

background in respect of which the applicants operated. I

will refer to the report in my argument, unless you want me

to address you on something specific out of the report.

JUDGE MALL: I understood yesterday that you were going to

find out from Mr Currin whether he has any views on this

matter. Has that been done?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, obviously because of the

logistical problem, we had a problem. My attorney, Mr Britz

did speak to Mr Currin. He said - to his personnel. He

couldn't get hold of him personally. They indicated that

there wasn't a problem, that the report could go in, but

they said that we should place on record that they reserve

all their rights pertaining to this report and that they

will let the Committee have their view on this in due

course.

I may mention that I had a discussion with Mr Currin

before, last week, about this report and the possibility

that oral evidence would be required. He gave me an

indication that he does not think that that would be

necessary and only if the circumstances really warrant it,

he would ask for such an opportunity. We obviously, if he

wants to do that, we obviously will have discussions with

him, see if we can't sort whatever he wants to deal with,

sort that out between ourselves, so that we perhaps could

present the Committee then with a joint separate report or a

memorandum, pertaining to his problems and the answers

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 172 ADDRESS

thereto.

What I foresee, Mr Chairman, is that if he has certain

questions, they could perhaps be put by him to Dr Robertse

telephonically. It could be taped and it could be

transcribed or it could be dealt with in any other way that

would make the Committee's task much easier, instead of

calling him as a witness. Obviously if the members of the

Committee wish to ask Dr Robertse questions the same

procedure can be followed or he can be called to give

evidence. He is prepared to give evidence.

I don't know if there are any further aspects

pertaining to this, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: The way I understand it, a copy of this

particular document has not yet reached Mr Currin. Is that

it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: It hasn't, Mr Chairman. We will, we are

going to try to do that today.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: We will let him have that.

JUDGE MALL: Well, on the understanding that you have

conveyed to us that you will endeavour to discuss this

matter with Mr Currin, it may be that after you have

discussed it, you will submit jointly a memorandum. If it

transpires that Mr Currin requires the witness to be called

to give evidence or for himself to call a consultant to give

evidence, we will deal with that matter when that problem

arises.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is my suggestion, Mr Chairman. I

don't want to belabour the Committee with that, I think Mr

Currin and ourselves can deal with that very easily, as we

have dealt with other issues during these hearings, and I

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 173 ADDRESS

think we can come to a very satisfactory conclusion without

a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I also add that I would suggest if that

does arise, arrangements should be made to hear the witness

elsewhere and not - we don't all have to come down to Cape

Town for that purpose.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, obviously an arrangement can be made

which suits the members of the Commission the best and we

will make arrangements to be available in that regard.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any comments to make in this

regard?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, thank you, I don't have any

comment, but just to confirm what my learned friend has told

the Committee about Mr Brian Currin. I also had a

discussion with him telephonically yesterday and he stated

to me exactly what my learned friend has just conveyed to

the Committee. Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. This document,

including the letter from Dr Robertse and all the annexures

thereto, will figure as EXHIBIT FF, in these proceedings.

EXHIBIT FF HANDED IN

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then

there is only one issue left, and that is, we gave the

Committee an undertaking that in respect of the matter of

Brian Ngqulunga, we would endeavour also to obtain the

record of the evidence that he gave at the Harms Commission.

We have been able to obtain that, Mr Chairman. I don't

have the usual confirmation that it is a correct transcript,

et cetera. This - one of our other clients, one of Mr

Britz' other clients obtained this for us. I don't have any

reason to believe that it is not correct, but I don't have

the

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 174 ADDRESS

normal confirmation thereof. But I, however, do have copies

for the Committee which I beg leave to hand up.

Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with that record at

all in evidence by Capt Mentz at all, and I will only use it

in argument, for argument purposes. Mr Chairman, that would

be Exhibit GG.

JUDGE MALL: This transcript of the evidence given by Mr

Brian Ngqulunga before the Harms Commission will be received

by the Committee as EXHIBIT GG.

EXHIBIT GG HANDED IN

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Is there any other matter, Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I don't know whether to

raise that here, Mr Chairman, but it pertains to the

discussion between the Chair and members with the lady, Ms

Pumla. I don't think it can be raised here.

JUDGE MALL: Ja.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Then there is nothing

more to say.

JUDGE MALL: You will make available a copy of the report?

ADV MPSHE: I have made it available to her.

JUDGE MALL: Thanks.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, there is just one

issue that I would like to raise and that is the question of

the heads of argument and the question of judgment. It is

something that we could discuss it with chambers with you or

we could raise it here. I just want an indication from you.

JUDGE MALL: We should talk about heads of argument, so that

all of us have some idea as to when we would be able to

attend to this matter, in the absence of calling any further

evidence.

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 175 BRIG CRONJE

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, there are a few issues

that have to be cleared up in that regard.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Well, now are we not in a position to fix

a time by which heads of argument is to come in?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, yes, that wouldn't be a

problem. I would need, I would say approximately three to

four weeks inbetween, inbetween other matters that I have to

deal with, to be able to finalise the heads of argument.

JUDGE WILSON: Would you base your argument on the typed

transcript to the evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and that would also cause

a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, our experience in the past, I think, to

say three to four weeks might be a little ambitious.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am a bit apprehensive in committing

myself to that. That was obviously on the basis that I have

the record available on Monday, that I can start, which I

don't think would be the case. We have the record of the

first part of the hearing.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any objection to the

arrangement that counsel be allowed four weeks within which

to submit his heads of argument?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I would have no problem with that,

Mr Chairman, but I just want to indicate that the record is

not yet available, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: I understand that, yes. The heads of argument

can be commenced with, in respect of that portion of the

hearing where the record is completed, so regular work can

be done in the meanwhile.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from the Chair

if it would be possible for me to approach the Committee

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 176 ADDRESS

perhaps, or yourself, if there is a problem with the

availability of the last part of the record, and I see that

there isn't enough time. The reason why I am prepared to

commit myself to a period soon after the hearings, is the

fact that we deem it important to have the heads of argument

in and we want to deal with this while everything is fresh

in our minds.

JUDGE MALL: Of course.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I approach you then when a problem

arises pertaining to the record, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, there is no hard and fast rule, but we

were hoping that if we discussed the matter here publicly,

it is clear to all interested parties, that this matter is

not just going to drag on and on, you know, and the public

knows nothing about when we are going to be turning our mind

to this application. So I think it is important for the

public to know that the next step in these proceedings is

going to be heads of argument, which at present are to be

four weeks from now, and if there are difficulties in the

way of obtaining a transcript of the evidence, that is a

factor which the Committee will take into account.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me

for one moment.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon. Mr

Chairman, there is one aspect which I want to raise with the

Committee and that is the question, if the heads of argument

is presented to the Committee, can we accept that the

applications have been finalised and the applications will

CAPE TOWN HEARING AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS 177 ADDRESS

then be adjudged on the basis of the evidence presented to

the Committee coupled with the heads of argument?

Obviously, if that is not the case, I would like an

indication from the Committee exactly how possibly other

amnesty applications might have an influence on that,

because it might be important for me to present you with

supplementary heads of argument, pertaining to other

applications if the Committee is going to take the contents

of other applications into account.

JUDGE MALL: I think you must assume that when the time

comes for the Committee to consider this massive volume of

evidence, and its far-reaching implications, that if at some

stage in the near future, other applicants give evidence,

whose evidence may impact on your client's case, your

attention will be drawn to that. You will be afforded an

opportunity to react to it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to clear this

out that I would then have the right to present you with

supplementary - if you haven't given judgment yet, to

present you with supplementary heads of argument pertaining

to that evidence in the other application that is going to

be led by somebody else.

JUDGE MALL: Well, the whole purpose of drawing it to your

attention is to enable you to deal with the matter.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just wanted to

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: As I recollect, one of your clients yesterday

asked us to have regard to the evidence of someone else who

had made an application. Could I add something to what the

Chairman has said about notification. It seems to me that

it might well be in your interest if you are notified of

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178

hearings. Rather than merely the evidence that was later -

because obviously you would be - your clients should be

interested parties at such hearings.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, we would appreciate that

if the Commission could let us know of all hearings that are

scheduled so that we can decide exactly where we have to ...

JUDGE WILSON: Well, all hearings relating to incidents that

your clients have been involved in or may be.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And clearly you don't want to be told about

hearings that have nothing whatsoever to do with them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, but Mr Chairman, what I do foresee is

that we also act for about 20 other applicants. So I do

foresee that we might be here in respect of other

applications as well. So we would like to have a schedule

of all hearings that are scheduled so that we can decide.

We will take it up with the Commission.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Alright. This brings to a conclusion the

proceedings this morning, Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, is the position that the

Committee's next public hearing is going to be in East

London on Monday morning?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Very well. The Committee now adjourns and if

there are any further developments that impact on this

particular application, notice to all interested parties

will be given. You will make a copy of your heads of

argument insofar as they are relevant to Mr Currin's client

as well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, MR Chairman, I will make available a

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ADV DU PLESSIS 179 ADDRESS

copy of my heads of argument to Mr Currin, and I will also

endeavour to make it available to Mr Visser, if he should be

interested and Mrs Kruger and anybody else who appeared

during the hearings.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. The Committee

adjourns.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS