CHAIRPERSON: ... Wednesday, the 21st of October. We are now gathered to hear the amnesty application of Bulengesi Justice Majosi.
The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson and Judges Potgieter and Khampepe.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. For the record, the Evidence Leader is Paddy Prior.
MR MNOWABE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. For the applicant, it is M A Mnowabe.
CHAIRPERSON: Is the matter ready for hearing, Mr Prior?
ADV PRIOR: The matter is ready for hearing, Mr Chairman. The applicant is present. My learned friend and myself have agreed that the bundle that was presented to the Committee be admitted in evidence as Exhibit A and that the statements of the documents contained therein are admitted as correct insofar as they reflect the facts.
MR MNOWABE: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Are you now going to call the applicant?
MR MNOWABE: I'm now going to call the applicant.
ADV POTGIETER: Mr Majosi, would you please rise?
MR MAGADE: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, if I might just at this stage before the applicants proceeds, inform the Committee that my name is Shelwyn Magade. I appear on behalf of certain implicated persons. We were served with the notices in terms of Section 19(4), to be here for the amnesty application of Mr Cyril Bongani Tusi(?).
At this stage I would just like to place on record that we were advised to be here today and for this week for this application but we were advised when we got here that the application was in fact withdrawn. And my instructions from my counsel are to just place on record that whatever allegations are made in that amnesty application, we will be addressing correspondence to the TRC setting out our clients' version of the facts.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you. Does that finish your job for the day? You are excused.
MR MAGADE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR MAGADE EXCUSED
ADV POTGIETER: Thank you. Mr Majozi, are your full names Mlungesi Justice Majozi?
CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated now.
MR MAJOSI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, he hasn't been sworn in.
MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: (sworn states)
MR MNOWABE: Mr Chairman, if I can proceed.
Mr Majosi, you apply for amnesty in regard to the shoot-out that ensued on 1st July 1991 near Port Shepstone.
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: Can you actually state what was your political affiliation at that time?
MR MAJOSI: I was a member of the ANC.
MR MNOWABE: Yes. Now you made a statement in substantiation of your application, which is reflected at pages 5 and 6 of the bundle of documents. Do you confirm the contents of that statement?
MR MAJOSI: Yes, I do.
MR MNOWABE: I see. Now insofar as the incident is concerned, you said you are a member of the ANC, can you briefly relate to the Committee how it came about that you were involved in this incident? What was the purpose when you actually were intercepted by the police, what were you up to?
MR MAJOSI: We left Pietermaritzburg for Durban where we had to meet other MK members and that is where it was decided or where it would be decided that we would have to get arms which we could use to train other comrades in Maritzburg but the problem was that the weapons were not there and we had to go to Port Shepstone to fetch them.
We drove in a car which picked us up at Ultra City. We went to pick up the arms at Port Shepstone, at Gamalakhe Township. We met other comrades there who stayed or resided there at a particular house belonging to comrade Bam.
We spent some time there trying to gather the weapons and we explained certain things or discussed certain things with other people. After that our car came to pick us up to take us back home where we had to take the weapons to.
We got into the car with these weapons and we kept these weapons inside the vehicle where we were seated ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on, can I just clarify something? As I understand the position, the weapons had been brought up from the Transkei by the ANC and you were supplied with the weapons by the ANC or by Umkhonto weSizwe in Port Shepstone, to take them elsewhere, to take them back to Maritzburg?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. You've told us now that you kept the weapons in the car. The weapons I think were AK47 assault rifles and Stechkin machine gun and ammunition in sealed containers?
MR MAJOSI: We had AK47s, the handgrenades as well, Stechkins as well as ammunition for all the weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
MR MAJOSI: ...[no English translation] Comrade Madoda who was a member of the MK suggested that we stand guard. We saw a white police vehicle in the area and after that we got into our car and we drove towards Pietermaritzburg.
Along the way we saw this vehicle following us and they stopped us. On stopping us they wanted the licence for the vehicle, there were four of us in the vehicle. He found the licence for the vehicle, verified this with other officers using his radio and one policeman drew his firearm. He pointed it at me as I was sitting on the left side at the back of the vehicle.
I had already drawn my pistol and gave it to Madoda who was sitting in front of me. He is then the one who made use of this pistol to shoot the police. That's when the problem started. If you still remember very well, the police indicated that there were several roadblocks that we drove through where the exchange of gunfire took place.
MR MNOWABE: If I can just come onto this. The policeman, Groenewald who was shot at the scene, was that to avoid being arrested?
MR MAJOSI: We were fleeing with the firearms and making sure yes, that we are not arrested. Our people were being killed at the place where we were headed.
MS KHAMPEPE: The question is, why did you shoot the policeman, Groenewald?
MR MAJOSI: He was also a member ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who Groenewald is?
MR MAJOSI: No, I don't remember him.
CHAIRPERSON: This is the Sergeant who came up to your car when the car had been stopped, the first policeman who was shot. Why was he shot?
MR MAJOSI: He had already drawn his pistol when the driver got into the vehicle. He then drew his firearm, pointed it at us and stopped us. We realised that something was wrong. Already the police were following us when we had left where we had come from.
MR MNOWABE: You then indicated that you went through roadblocks and it's actually, the facts are common cause that - yes, that's all common cause. What I just want to know is will you confirm, are you saying that these firearms were actually obtained in furtherance of a political objective?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: And that the shooting of the police and ensuing shoot-out that followed was in furtherance of this purpose, you had to hold onto the weapons?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: What happened to your firearm, this Stechkin that you had been carrying?
MR MAJOSI: We exchanged gunfire with the police as we were fleeing and when our car was somewhere along the road it was shot at. I now had another gun. I took this firearm, got out of the car and exchanged or returned fire. I was covering them because they were already shot.
MR MNOWABE: Was it ultimately recovered by the police, the Stechkin?
MR MAJOSI: I think yes, they did find the firearms.
MR MNOWABE: Yes. And you were then arrested along with Madoda Mkhize?
MR MAJOSI: What I can say here is that I saw them last when we got out of the vehicle, crossing the river. I was coming from behind, following them from behind trying to make sure that the police do not continue shooting at us.
MR MNOWABE: After your arrest you were duly tried and convicted of attempted murder and possession of firearms and ammunition, is that so?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: You had pleaded not guilty then?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct, because I would not have pleaded guilty at the time when we were living under a repressive system, therefore I did not want to plead guilty.
MR MNOWABE: Are you saying it would not have been politically correct at the time to have admitted having possessed the firearms and so forth?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: Are you presently at Westville Prison serving a sentence which was imposed upon you by the Magistrate of Port Shepstone?
MR MAJOSI: That is correct.
MR MNOWABE: Now the policeman who was actually shot at point blank, how do you feel about him?
MR MAJOSI: We are now talking peace and reconciliation. I know that I am one of the people who had done wrong things. They too know that they were involved in wronging us. We want to make peace. Some of our people with whom we were working know that we had agreed to be engaged in this. We need peace now.
MR MNOWABE: Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MNOWABE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?
ADV PRIOR: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR
CHAIRPERSON: No questions by the Members of the Committee.
MR MNOWABE: I close the applicant's case, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you do, will you just tell us what is the applicant's case?
MR MNOWABE: Yes. The applicant's case is that he had been acting under instructions ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: I want the specific details.
MR MNOWABE: Oh yes.
CHAIRPERSON: All he has said in his amnesty application is
"Possession of machine gun, ammunition, possession of grenades and attempted murder."
Now if you look at page 13, it appears that he was convicted there of the two AK47 rifles but that was set aside on appeal. He was convicted of possession of ammunition, three handgrenades and a 9mm Stechkin pistol. Is it in respect of that weapon not just the machine gun in the abstract, but possession of the Stechkin pistol that you're asking for amnesty?
MR MNOWABE: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is the Stechkin and ammunition.
CHAIRPERSON: And another problem I have is when did this happen?
MR MNOWABE: On the 5th of July 1991, the 1st of July 1991.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
MR MNOWABE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: In the vicinity of Port Shepstone?
MR MNOWABE: Yes, it was - ...[indistinct] in Port Shepstone.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, it's quite clear that this was part of what is being referred to as the struggle of the past. There's no suggestion is there, anywhere in the information before us, that there was any personal objective or that the firearms were to be used for any purpose other than those of Umkhonto weSizwe?
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, that is quite correct. There was no suggestion that the weapons were to be used, for example in a robbery or whatever.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I place on record that the policeman involved, Mr Groenewald, at this stage cannot be located. I spoke to Mr Larreman yesterday, one of the traffic officers who was also a complainant in the matter.
May I firstly just put on record that Mr Larreman does not oppose the application and asked me to convey that to the Committee. He informed me that he was very close to Mr Groenewald. Mr Groenewald was severely traumatised as a result of the shooting incident, had left the police force and had left Natal to go up to the Transvaal somewhere, and although he was very close to him, he has also lost track of him and hasn't been contacted by Mr Groenewald in a number of years. Be that as it may, I would ask the Committee in due course to refer Mr Groenewald to the R & R Committee and obviously they will endeavour to track him down. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I take it that the other people who were interested were notified and none of them have shown any indication of wishing to oppose or appear?
ADV PRIOR: That is quite correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need hear you, Mr Mnowabe.
MR MNOWABE: Yes.
F I N D I N G: 21.10.1998
CHAIRPERSON: The applicant in this matter asks for amnesty in respect of the possession of a machine gun, ammunition and possession of grenades and attempted murder.
On the evidence before us and on the information contained in the bundle put before us, Exhibit A, it is clear that on the day in question, that is on the 1st of July 1991, the applicant and his companions had travelled down from Pietermaritzburg through Durban to Port Shepstone. They did so in the course of their duties as members of Umkhonto weSizwe, and the purpose of the visit was to enable firearms to be obtained which could then be used on behalf of Umkhonto weSizwe in the Pietermaritzburg district.
The firearms were obtained from the Transkei from ANC sources, and that morning they left Port Shepstone. Shortly after they had commenced their journey they noticed a police vehicle following them. It later caused them to stop.
Policemen got out and first asked for the licence of the vehicle and then indicated, I think it is quite clear, an intention to search the vehicle. The weapons were inside the vehicle, they were not in the boot of the car which was found to be empty. When the police approached the vehicle itself, we are told that Sergeant Groenewald drew his pistol whereupon one of the applicants companions drew his gun and opened fire on Sergeant Groenewald.
They drove away and were pursued by the police. They came upon other police vehicles and roadblocks and there was firing between them and the policeman and ultimately their car came to a halt. They fled into the bush, where the applicant was arrested. He was subsequently charged and convicted of attempted murder and various contraventions of the Arms and Ammunition Act.
We are satisfied that the applicant was acting on behalf of Umkhonto weSizwe, as part of what was then contemplated was the struggle for the liberation of the country and that there was no personal motive involved, nor were the firearms to be used for anything other than the objects of Umkhonto weSizwe.
We are satisfied that he has complied with the requirements of the Amnesty Act, and that the acts for which he seeks amnesty were acts committed with a political objective in terms of the Act.
The information before us is to the effect that he was in possession of a Stechkin pistol which is a form of automatic pistol, and a great deal of ammunition as well as the handgrenades but on appeal his conviction for possession of the two AK47 rifles was set aside and there is no application before us, and this has been confirmed by his counsel, in respect of the AK47s.
We accordingly GRANT THE APPLICANT AMNESTY IN RESPECT OF THE ACT OR ACTS OF ATTEMPTED MURDER COMMITTED ON THE 1ST OF JULY 1991 on the road between Hibberdene and Port Shepstone and in respect of THE CONTRAVENTIONS OF THE ARMS AND AMMUNITION ACT, relating to the possession of a 9mm Stechkin pistol and 466 rounds of 9mm ammunition and 537 rounds of AK47 machine rifle ammunition and three handgrenades at the same time and place.
We are informed that it has not been possible to make contact with SERGEANT GROENEWALD who was severely wounded in the incident. He has retired from the police force and has lost contact with those who knew him in the past. We are nevertheless satisfied that HE IS A VICTIM and we direct that his name be referred to the R & R Committee with a request that they do what they can to enquire as to his whereabouts and to loss or damage he may have suffered.
That concludes our decision in this matter.
MR MNOWABE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we take a short adjournment. I see Mr Wills has arrived, just to discuss what is to happen. Please all rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
