Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: You will recall that yesterday we postponed this application of Mr Gwamanda until today because of the withdrawal of his legal representative and Mr Mchunu came and introduced himself to us this morning.

Mr Mchunu, I'd just like to thank you for assisting us and standing in on short notice in this matter, thank you very much.

Mr Mpshe, we've got another matter set down for today, that is the application of M R Ndlovu(?). Is anybody here to represent him or any people here?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I arranged yesterday with the legal rep that we will do his matter in the afternoon at 2 o'clock. He will be here at 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, and then we can take it, we can see what the status of this matter is and if necessary make an arrangement regarding that matter, thank you.

Yes, well we can now start with this application. Is there anything else, no startling surprises? Mr Mchunu?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I before Mr Mchunu commences, by agreement with him just to bring some amendments? I don't know whether you call them amendments or ...[inaudible]

MR LAX: Sorry, you're microphone has gone off again.

ADV MPSHE: Some corrections to the application. This has been confirmed by both the applicant and Mr Mchunu so that it does not cause confusion as we proceed.

Mr Chairman, I will start on page 18 of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: 18 of the bundle?

ADV MPSHE: 18 of the bundle, paginated 18, paragraph 26. That is the incident of the killing of the taxi owner. The name of the taxi owner, Mr Gumede. I just want to place it on record that it has been established that Mr Gumede did not die because of the applicant's act. He was shot but he survived and he died later on of an illness unrelated to the shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: So he died of natural causes?

ADV MPSHE: Natural causes. And then still the same paragraph, line 7 of that paragraph, the sentence starting with

"The taxi owner stopped the vehicle next to the one I was driving"

Then he says:

"Mfeka alighted from the kombi"

It is actually not Mfeka there, it should read:

"Mtini Ndokweni"

CHAIRPERSON: I see on my copy there's - you can see that somebody has written it in. It's not very clear.

ADV MPSHE: The Chair had the privilege of using my copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Is it Mtini Ndokweni?

N-D-O-K-W-E-N-I?

ADV MPSHE: Correct, Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee.

And if the Members are ready we move to page 24, paragraph 38. In this incident no mention is made of the victim but it has been established, and the applicant has confirmed that, that the name of the victim is: Million, as in the actual million, Meyiwa: M-E-Y-I-W-A. Those are the only corrections I wanted to put on record, thank you Mr Chairman. My learned friend can confirm that.

MR MCHUNU: I do confirm that, Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mchunu.

MR MCHUNU: Without any further ado, Mr Chairman, I will start straight away leading the applicant in this application. I would call him and ask that he be sworn in.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mchunu?

EXAMINATION BY MR MCHUNU: Mr Gwamanda, is it correct that you are in custody at Durban Westville Medium, a prison in Westville?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Before you were arrested and actually convicted of the incident, that is of the robbery of which you were finally convicted of, where did you reside?

MR GWAMANDA: I was residing in - are you referring to the first ones, the first incident or the first arrest?

CHAIRPERSON: You are presently serving a prison term, before your arrest in respect of the offence for which you are presently serving a term, where did you reside?

MR GWAMANDA: At Ndwedwe, Mzumkulwayo.

MR MCHUNU: I understand that at some stage you were in prison round about the year 1983.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: For a robbery at Matubatuba.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: And after that I also understand that you served your sentence at various places. Would you tell the Chairman and the Members of the Committee in which places did you serve your sentence?

MR GWAMANDA: I was first arrested at Matubatuba and I was taking to Empangeni Prison, after which I was transferred to Point Prison. After spending one year at that particular prison, after a year I was taken in 1985 and I was taken to Barberton.

MR MCHUNU: Would you then lead us through your stay in Barberton Prison?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Particularly in relation to your application today.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Go ahead.

MR GWAMANDA: In 1983 I was arrested in December, November 11. I was arrested by the Mbunande police. I was charged for robbery ...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: Just to interrupt you, Mr Gwamanda, can you stick at your stay, particularly to your stay at Barberton Prison and relating to your application brought today?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm going there, please listen. I am continuing now.

MR LAX: What your lawyer is trying to suggest to you is we don't waste time with the build-up as to how you got to Barberton but that you start with Barberton so we can move a little bit quickly.

MR GWAMANDA

"Yes, I'm headed there. I was transferred to Point in 1985 in March and I was then transferred to Barberton Maximum. There are different prisons in Barberton, yet in one premises. I was taken from Maximum to Medium B according to my classification. I left Medium B and I was taken to Open Kem(?) I was transferred from Open Kem to town. That was in 1990. That is where I submitted my amnesty application.

As I was in town prison I met Elijah Mhlaba. That is where Elijah Mhlaba became my friend and we could converse as friends. At that time in town prison, that's when Elijah Mhlaba told me that he was a member of Inanda(?) under Enoch Mabuza in Low Veld. That's where Elijah Mhlaba told me that he works hand-in-hand with AWB".

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what did you say he was, a member of what, Nyanda?

MR GWAMANDA: Inanda. There was an organisation called Inanda. I don't know much about that organisation but the last time I saw him he was a member of Inanda under Enoch Mabuza.

MR LAX: Sorry Interpreters, the word is N-Y-A-N-D-A, not Inanda.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, Nyanda, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gwamanda, the interpreters have to interpret simultaneously with you and it's very difficult for the to keep up with you when you're speaking fast. If you could speak just a little bit slower so it will make it a bit easier for the interpreters, thank you.

MR GWAMANDA: Okay, alright.

MR MCHUNU: You can go ahead.

MR GWAMANDA

"That's when Elijah Mhlaba told me he was working hand-in-hand with the AWB and he pleaded with me and said I should agree that I'm an IFP member so that we can be colleagues or work hand-in-hand in prison. I agreed to that as he was pleading with me.

He pleaded for a long time with me and I did not know then as to what to do because I was elected as a chairman in prison, elected by other inmates. I was leading the entertainment part. He told me that there were leaders in prison or authorities in prison who were also AWB members and who were working with AWB. He said he will take me with and introduce me to them.

Indeed he took me to them and showed me Sergeant Venter. There he is, Lieutenant Venter, there he is. Sergeant Venter took me and told me that we should go and identify targets outside the prison at the shooting range to plug those papers in preparation of practising in the shooting range".

MR MCHUNU: Sorry to interrupt you. Apart from Lieutenant Venter, who else did you meet at Barberton Prison?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm still coming there with regards to other prisoners, Mhlongo Makoma and Elijah Mhlaba and myself. We were four.

MR MCHUNU: I'm more concerned with the other warders or other prison authorities that you mentioned. From Lieutenant Venter, who else can you still recall, if you can?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm still coming there. I'm going to explain about other officials like Warrant Geldenhuys. I'm still coming there.

After we plugged these plugs with Elijah Mhlaba at the shooting range, he said we should go to the kitchen. There was a kitchen in the prison premises and we used flour. There would be a sack and you would plug the target, then you would spread your hands with this flour and plug this target.

After we did that he told us that we will go with him to "skietbaan". He used to refer to this place as "skietbaan", the shooting range that is. I saw Rutsi Koronega and Lieutenant Joubert and Warrant Officer Geldenhuys and they were driving a private car.

At that time we took the shooting range and we loaded them in the truck and we got inside the truck as well and we drove off the prison and off the Barberton Town and we approached the mountains and we were driving around the mountains until we got to the place where there was a camp, military camp, military base. We got inside there.

As you enter the camp there was a key one should get and then you go over to where the shooting range was. That's when we arrived there with the others I was with plus the AWB who were using the private cars. We parked just nearby to the shooting range.

We off-loaded those targets and there were iron bars that will be used and we will lift up those targets bars and that we used to use for shooting range so that wherever you shot we would, there will be a hole that one could binoculars to identify it.

The sergeant left us there and gave us red scarves. You see the "skietbaan" is so wide, it's so big and there were red scarves that we were plugging around".

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gwamanda, I realise you want to tell your whole story but you start getting into detail how wide the targets were etc., we will be here for a very very long time. If you could please confine your narration to matters that are relevant to your application, and also just to speak slower for the interpreter.

"After that we were trained and we were taught how to shoot. We were trained by those guys I mentioned. We were using various or assortments of rifles. We used AK, we used Run(?), we used shotguns as well as hand-grenades.

After that training we were sent back to prison. After we were done with training we were kept in prison. We were improved or better inmates than others. After that Sergeant Venter came to me with Elijah Mhlaba and he told us that we should go to the office of Lieutenant Venter and indeed we got there. That is where Venter told us that we have some duty or some mission to undertake, to shoot Matthew Phosa that is.

After we have done that we would be rewarded by something or we will be given something. After that we agreed and we left, the four of us, myself Elijah Mhlaba, Makoma and Mhlongo and we formed that organisation.

The following day we left and Sergeant Venter was using the company car, Monza. The Monza was filled with rifles. There was an R1 and there were AK's as well and 675. At that time he took us and we left with me. Lieutenant Joubert and Colonel Roots were using a private car.

We left and we went to Nelspruit. That is when I first saw Nelspruit. I used to read about Nelspruit but never was there in person. After we arrived in Nelspruit, Sergeant Venter parked next to a post office and there were other cars, 4X4's which were parked there and there were AWB members in AWB uniforms.

After that he alighted from the car and talked to them for quite some time, discussing with them. After that he came back to us, that is Sergeant Venter, and told us that we cannot continue with the plan or execute this action because things are not going as well and we went back to prison.

We knew very well that we were better inmates than others. We could visiting locations and visiting our girlfriends as well and we were never using prison uniforms. That's when I met Sophie and I fell in love with her and she fell pregnant, Sophie. We would go to Aubrey's farm for a braai. I used to meet Sophie quite a lot when we go to Aubrey's farm for entertaining ourselves. We would go to another butchery in the location as well."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, whose farm did you go to?

MR GWAMANDA: Mr Aubrey. I know him as Mr Aubrey, even during the time of the investigation they saw that the farm was written "Aubrey Farm".

"After we were relaxed and we had privileges of doing all such things. In 1993 I was discharged, March 15.

I told Sophie and Sophie was the one who came for me at the prison and we went to the location after Lieutenant Venter discharged me. I went to Sophie's house. Sophie came from Witbank but was a lodger where we went to.

I spent three days and from there I came back here in kwaZulu Natal. I came with Sophie. They know Sophie, my family, that is my aunts and my uncles have met Sophie. Sophie explained so much about our affair and my activities in prison. Sophie was playing a special role in my life as I was in prison.

I got to Mtembisweni where my family was residing. When I got there I realised and found out that my family had moved from there. I met Themba Nyoga. Themba Nyoga was my childhood friend, a bit older than I was or than I am. That's when I discovered that Themba Nyoga was a leader of IFP, when I got there and he called for me. He sent his boy to call me at my in-law's.

I went to Nyoga's house. There was a tea-room nearby my in-law's there. That's where I found Themba Nyoga and he had in his possession a shotgun and Mdugi's son as well had a gun. There was another boy who had a 38 in his possession and there was Dumisani and other boys who knew me quite well because I was residing there.

That's when Themba Nyoga explain in detail with regard to my family and told me that they moved to Ndwedwe. He told that there in Thembisweni was a dominant area of IFP. And told me that the ANC members had moved. He does not even want to see them because they want to confiscate the land and they are working hand-in-hand with the Xhosa, Mandela.

I explained to him, Nygo, that I was arrested before all these things, before the struggle. I fought and I was an active member in the struggle around 1976. That's when I was expelled from school as well.

As to what was happening currently, I'm not updated. As for all these activities about IFP and ANC, I did not have or I bore no knowledge inasfar as that was concerned. All I knew was that all the people that were residing there were under a certain King but I appreciate your explanation in as far as all this political feud is concerned.

I said there was no problem, I would go and think about what you've just told me. When I looked around the houses that I was used to and knew very well, I realised that all the houses were burnt. I took a walk to some other place and I realised that most of the boys who were there actively were shot and they showed me that they were being shot by Themba Noyga's followers.

I had no money to live in Mtembisweni for Ndwedwe and he gave me some money. That is the person who gave me R1 500-00 to go and locate my family. That's when I left and I met a certain boy who left with my mother from Mtembisweni and who knew very well as to where my mum was.

I arrived at Ndwedwe. When I got there I discovered that my sisters were there, although one of my sisters was in Johannesburg. My family was there and the little ones were there as well. They took me to my brother-in-law. That's when I discovered that my other sister was in Johannesburg. I found my wife was there at home. My brother-in-law called Johannesburg because he had the numbers and got me connected with my sister Gabsile and my sister told me to relax at home, she's be coming back.

That was the time when I discovered that Ndwedwe was predominantly IFP. I waited for my sister until she got there. That's when my sister related so much to me and told me that I should stop all these immoral acts and collect myself. I agreed to that and she gave me some money that I should change my lifestyle and go get or buy some new clothes and explained to me how my mum passed away. My mum was shot, shot by Ngubane. She was attacked. My mum was harassed and tortured until she had high blood pressure and until she also got sugar-diabetes and subsequently passed away. I was residing there at the time, knowing very well that the IFP was dominant.

One day I saw my house was set alight and was burning and I identified the boys who set my house alight and I saw them running away. I went to the police station at Ndwedwe. It was that time when the police took my statement and told me to go back to the community. My brother-in-law told me to go and report this matter to Mfageni Gumede, that here I'm being burnt and I don't know why. Gumede took me to Zondi."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was Gumede?

MR GWAMANDA: He was one of the councillors Mfageni Gumede who were looking after the community and a school.

"That was the time when he took me to Zone D IFP Chairman and explained to him that I'm Gwamanda and the chairman said to me he understood perfectly well what I was saying but he had a problem as to which group I was a member and I told him that I have just got discharged from prison and I don't have any knowledge inasfar as members and political groups are concerned.

Zonti told me and put it explicitly clear that I should be an IFP member because if I'm one I won't targeted ...[end of tape] pretty well in the community if I'm not an IFP member. So for me to be comfortable in the area I should be an IFP member.

Even at home my sisters fled to Newcastle. So many of my family members fled because of the situation that prevailed at the time. I explained to him that I met AWB members in prison and they also pleaded with me to work hand in hand with them and I was trained as well. That was the time I met Mfayela, the one who is in Parliament here in kwaZulu Natal, and he said it is fine and he understands quite well what I'm explaining and I am an IFP member now officially. He wanted me to be his bodyguard. I agreed to that.

He told me that he would organise that I should go to Ulundi and meet General Mati and also be give a police card so that I may not be arrested by the SAP. I was taken to Ulundi. We arrived there at night. I was taken to the office where I met General Mati. There were pictures around of Buthelezi."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was General Mati's position, was he in the police?

MR GWAMANDA: He was the head of the kwaZulu Police. He was a Commissioner in other words.

"He asked me a few questions and I answered them and he told me that I would be granted a certificate and he asked me as to whether I knew my job description and I said yes.

We left and a picture was taken of me in my private clothing. Mfayela took me to the car and we drove back to Ndwedwe. That's when I arrived to Ndwedwe and I stayed there and I was told that I should go to the police station at Ndwedwe. That is where I met GP and he had a brown envelope, Gipa Gumede."

MR MCHUNU: Who is Gipa Gumede?

MR GWAMANDA: He was a policeman at Ndwedwe Police Station.

"That's when Gipa opened this brown envelope and gave me the appointment card and asked me if I know everything and I said yes, I have everything and I know.

I met with Mfayela and he told me that somebody was looking for me. He took me in his car and we drove to his house in Ndwedwe where I met somebody who was a station commander and he gave me a 9mm pistol so that I could guard Mr Mfayela.

I took the gun. I would travel around with him in the Ndwedwe area. Sometimes he would leave me behind and he would be alone."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that gun that you received from the Station Commander, the 9mm, was it a police gun, was it a police issue?

MR GWAMANDA: It had a ZP registration on the back. I would carry that gun around Ndwedwe ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, there's stuff he mentioned there that you haven't translated for us, about takes 15 rounds and it has a long barrel and it was a parrabellum. Please you must try and interpret all of that otherwise we’re going to miss out on that.

INTERPRETER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.

MR GWAMANDA: It was a 9mm parrabellum like the one carried by the policeman near him and it was a long one. I do not refer to a 9 shot but a 9 long.

MR MCHUNU: You can go ahead, proceed.

MR GWAMANDA

"One day he told me that we should go to the Ndwedwe Police Station and that's where I discovered that Ndwedwe policemen were killers. They would hold meetings at the police station. Some of those meetings are recorded in this statement, some of them are not. The policemen that I will mention who were involved: Mr Gipa Gumede, Vuzmate, Nzama, Sabata ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are these the names that appear on page 16 in the bundle?

MR GWAMANDA: Page 21.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in paragraph 21 of your affidavit?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GWAMANDA

"There was Mfayela who was a member of the then kwaZulu Government, Dingele who was also an MP at the then kwaZulu Government, Sergeant Gipa Gumede, Detective Nzama, Nduduzi Gumede, Wiseman Gumede, Sabata, I knew him as Sabata, and Kekingiba, Simon Mfayela, Veva and Vuzmati. There was also Stolz. There would be meetings in this police station. Some of them were Special Constables, that is reserve policemen. The people from Ndwedwe know whom I'm referring to when I talk of Special Constables, they know how they were at the time. Mfayela was telling them that ANC members should be killed because at that time the election was being proposed. He was telling them that everyone should vote for the IFP and he mentioned people's names, including a taxi owner who was supposedly transporting people at Somkomo. This person was supposed to be an ANC member and was supposed to be killed. He would mention also people like Mahiywa. The people at Somkomo know Mahiywa. He had been imprisoned for ANC activities. I did not know him. He said that such people should be killed. This was discussed in the meeting. He also explained that no-one had the right to oppose what he was proposing because he wanted everyone to be under the leadership of the IFP. There were numerous meetings held at the station ..."

...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, please could you slow down a little bit. Really, just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Gwamanda, at that time what was Mr Mfayela's position in the community?

MR GWAMANDA: He was the leader at Ndwedwe as he still is today. He is in Parliament today, representing the community of Ndwedwe. He is also the leader of the IFP in the Ndwedwe area. He used to force people to become Inkatha members.

"After that there was a meeting at Mzukulyo. Just before that I would like to take one step back. There was a teacher by the name of Cele who came to me because I knew everything about Mfayela, what he did, about the weapons that were transported from Ulundi which would be used to kill ANC members. I knew everything about these weapons and how the violence was being orchestrated. He would have discussions with people being transported from Lindilani, Mpumalanga, to help in ...[indistinct] the violence. Boys from the Ndwedwe area would be forced to go areas like Mpumalanga to fight the ANC. Those people would be hidden in the house ..."

...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Gwamanda, please can you try and talk slowly. It's impossible for the interpreters to keep up with you and important bits of your story that you'd like everyone to hear are going to get lost because they can't be translated. So for your own benefit and ours, if you wouldn't mind trying to talk a little bit slower.

MR GWAMANDA: I would like to mention that this is the way I talk, I am naturally fast but I will try to slow down.

MR LAX: We'd be very grateful.

MR GWAMANDA

"It was at that time when these groups of boys were being called into the area. I had some other weapons in my possession, like the 38 and 7.65. As I was sitting at home Cele came to me and he requested that I should give him the 38 and the 7.65 on the instruction of Mr Mfayela. These guns he would take to Olsdindesweni to protect the IFP. I was surprised because Cele did not know about these guns. I therefore believed that he had indeed been sent by Mfayela, and I gave him the guns and he left.

One day when I was at Mr Mfayela's house, the community of Ndwedwe knows that I would be picked up by Mr Mfayela himself of his son Simo. He would pick me up in a white van. The taxi owners in Ndwedwe know about this van. The people of Somkomo also know about this van because it used to terrorise them a lot.

I gave him the guns and I was surprised when Mr Mfayela asked me about these guns later and I told him what had happened and he said he doesn't remember having sent him. There was a meeting at Mzukulyo in November ..."

...[intervention]

Please excuse me, I just want to check the dates.

"It was on the 27th of November 1993. That's when there was an IFP meeting at Mzululyo. I was also present at that meeting. There was somebody called Zulaki Mbambo who was an ANC member who had fled the Tembisweni area because of the violence and he hidden or he was hiding at my house. I was his uncle. I told him that he shouldn't let it be known that he is an ANC member.

He stayed at my house. Right now he resides at an informal settlement at Pietermaritzburg. I was with Zulaki at that meeting. I had an AK47 with which I had removed from Mr Mfayela's house ..."

...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: Sorry, the meeting you are referring to of the 27th of November 1993, what was the purpose of that meeting?

MR GWAMANDA: It was to commemorate the people who had died in the violence. That was common practice within the IFP. They would do that to pretend as if IFP members had been killed, when in fact it was ANC members who had been killed. And they would use these forums to campaign for votes. They said they are commemorating the deaths of the IFP members.

"At that meeting I had that AK47 with me. I left the AK with Zwelaki Mbambo. I used to carry this AK47 around at Ndwedwe and all the people from the Ndwedwe area knew that I carried this weapon and I would use it to shoot around the area. I did not hide these guns.

At that meeting Mr Mfayela was given a red blanket and this blanket was indicative or was a symbol of the commemoration of the deaths of IFP members.

At that time when the meeting ended, when there was dinner thereafter because everybody had contributed R20,00 for the meeting. If you did not pay this money your house would be burnt down because that meant you were against the IFP. I had also paid this money as the head of the Gwamanda family.

After the meeting he went into a certain classroom. I had left him sitting with Zondi Gumede and I wanted to go and have something to eat. I left him there to have my supper. I was called shortly into the classroom. Apparently there was a squabble between Mr Mfayela and Zondi ..."

...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: Sorry once again, this Cele you are talking about, you said he was a school teacher, at which school?

MR GWAMANDA: He taught at Georgie School at Osindisweni.

MR MCHUNU: At the same school where the service was held?

MR GWAMANDA: No, the service was held at Mzukulayo School.

"As I sat in front of Mr Mfayela, he was holding onto the bench and he was asking Mr Cele where the guns were. As I entered the room I heard him asking about the guns and then started assaulting Mr Cele and I also hit Mr Cele and kicked him. I wanted to set them apart and Mr Mfayela left the room and went into his car. I followed him. He took off his watch and returned. As he entered the school yard he assaulted Mr Cele again. I removed my gun and I asked him: "What will you do"? And he said: 'Yes, no, he deserves to be shot but we cannot do it now because there were people all around.'

There was an IFP Chairlady from Montabela who was with the person and she was standing beside the car. We all got into the car. He just went into the car, we did not have to open the door for him. As I tried to get into the car he reversed and I could not get into the car. He sped off heading towards the Ndwedwe Police Station.

He returned whilst I was still standing there. Mr Cele was bleeding and I was looking at him. The car returned shortly and picked me up and he said I should come with this boy. I went into the car with Zwelaki Mbambo. It was myself, Zwelaki, Mr Mfayela and this Chairlady of the IFP, who resided near the Montabela Hospital.

The car went around the Ndwedwe area, past the Nkomo's shop ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gwamanda, do you recall the name of the Chairlady from Montabela?

MR GWAMANDA: I did explain that I did not know her name, I only know that she is an IFP Chairlady. I know where her house is and I can identify her because she's a nurse at the hospital but I do not know her name.

"We were all in the car and Mr Mfayela was playing a tape in the car and we drove to Montabela. On our way this Chairlady was talking about comrades and also referring to the Montabela area"

MR MCHUNU: Sorry Mr Gwamanda, if I may take you back just a little bit.

MR GWAMANDA: Okay.

MR MCHUNU: What eventually happened to Mr Cele? Was he left standing there after having been assaulted or was he killed, what happened?

MR GWAMANDA: We assaulted him and left him there. Mr Cele's house is not very far from my own. I will mention him in some incidents later. He had sold me a car. There was once a plot to kill him and I was actually hired by some people from the Mhlongo family to kill him. I went to his house and I told him and I also called this person who had hired me to kill him and brought them together. Mr Cele herself knows that I had no grudge against Mr Cele but I was working on the instructions of Mr Mfayela. When there was a plot to kill him I did tell him about it and I brought the person to him.

MR MCHUNU: Mr Gwamanda, you can go ahead with your trip whilst conveying the Chairlady of Montabela ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You said that when you were in the car the Chairlady was talking about comrades.

MR GWAMANDA

"As we were in the car she was talking about comrades, saying that there were some comrades in the Montabela area. She did not know that I had a girlfriend at Montabela and I knew that these comrades hid at the hospital. She said she had information about them and Mr Mfayela should send people to kill them. Mr Mfayela agreed and said: "Yes, Gwamanda and them will indeed come and help to attack those people". Because we were not even going to go to the election. The purpose was to stop people from voting in the elections ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, am I correct, Mr Gwamanda, when you refer to comrades in this context, you are referring to people who at the time were supporters of the UDF, the ANC and the UDF?

MR GWAMANDA: When I speak of comrades I refer to the ANC. I do not know about the UDF. Everybody was called comrade. When I refer to a comrade I refer to a person who is an ANC supporter. That is the IFP language when they refer to the ANC youth, they call them comrades.

MR MCHUNU: Proceed.

MR GWAMANDA

"We dropped the IFP Chairlady and we discussed that we should indeed have this operation. We returned home, the three of us. As we were at Nklasagazi before we crossed the bridge, people from Montabela should know this area, we met some women who were standing along the road.

The one woman approached Mr Mfayela and said there was this one boy who was involved in something and Mr Mfayela said the boy should come to his house. I did not quite understand what this boy had done because this boy apparently had been to training at Mlaba Camp.

We then left that area and we drove towards Mr Nkomo's shop. On arrival or on passing the shop we met a group of small boys. As I saw these boys, Mr Mfayela stopped the car and he said: "Shoot these comrades". I got off the car, opened the door and they fled. And he said: "Shoot", and then I shot at the boys and they ran down a slope and I was shooting at them.

We got into the car and we drove on ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Gwamanda, you described them as boys and small boys, could you give some indication as to the age of these boys? Were they young men or were they young children, 7/8 year olds, 15 year olds, 20 year olds? Do you have any idea?

MR GWAMANDA: I will request that boy to stand up. They were about that size or slightly older than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the boy who is standing up is a young boy. I don't know how old he is but I think he could be about 10 years old. ...[intervention]

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, they were young boys, small boys. They were young boys although I cannot quite tell because at that time it was just about dusk but I could see that they were small boys.

"He said: 'These are the ANC comrades, you should shoot them'. After ..."

...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: Sorry, do you know whether any of them were injured during this attack on them?

MR GWAMANDA: I do not know. I have asked for amnesty here for this. I don't know what happened to them. I didn't have any personal grudge against these boys and I was very sorry for shooting at them.

"From there, Mr Mfayela removed the back number plates of the car and then we drove on. We drove past Mona Lisa and as we approached there we met a group of people and he stopped the car and said I should shoot again. I did shoot and from there ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - when you say he said you should shoot at the group of people and you shot, can you just be a little bit more descriptive? How big was the group of people, how many people approximately, how far away were you when you shot, how many shots did you fire, do you know whether you injured anybody as a result of that?

MR GWAMANDA: The car was stopped just near the people and as I got off the car the people would flee and I would shoot at them, just shooting at them at random as they are running away. They would not be far away from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it on automatic mode when you shot? Did you shoot a number of shots or was it just one or two shots that you fired?

MR GWAMANDA: You only set it once, the 9mm and you just keep on shooting. It's not an automatic that you lock and you can differentiate between automatic and manual. The 9mm pistol is not automatic.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hit any of them?

MR GWAMANDA: In these incidents I did shoot but I am not sure whether somebody was actually hit because I could not return and check if I had indeed hit someone. This happened at night ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, sorry to keep interrupting but I think we must just clear up a few points otherwise we might forget them. This group that you shot at and also the group of young boys that you saw near the shop that you shot at, was there anything distinctive about the groups to identify them as being comrades? Were they wearing T-shirts or headgear or were they singing songs or doing anything to indicate that they were comrades and not just a group of people who weren't affiliated to any particular political organisation?

MR GWAMANDA: What I can say is that this Chairlady had explained that the people in that area were ANC supporters. These boys did not wear any sort of uniform or T-shirt, they were not doing anything. As far as I could tell they looked like people who were just standing around or they could have been playing soccer. There was nothing wrong that they were doing. They had not done anything wrong, like throwing a stone at his car.

MR MCHUNU: Is it your assumption perhaps that because in the area there were no IFP members, most probably those boys were ANC boys?

MR GWAMANDA: I cannot say that with certainty because in tribal areas a person builds his house wherever he likes or if he has the permission of the Nkosi, not necessarily because you belong to a certain political organisation. You build your house and you get your land from the Nkosi. You do not build your house in an area just because you are affiliated to a political organisation. So I would not know whether they belonged to ANC, PAC or IFP. You normally would not know how or to which organisation people were affiliated to.

MR MCHUNU: My question is, on that particular day at that particular time, was it perhaps your assumption or Mr Mfayela's assumption that those people who were standing there were ANC members precisely because the area was an ANC area or dominated area of the ANC?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, that is what we assumed.

MR MCHUNU: You can proceed.

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you do. You were asked by the Chair earlier to try and give us some idea of how many people were in these different groups and you didn't answer that aspect of it, both the small boys and this second group, can you do that?

MR GWAMANDA: ....[no English translation]

MR MCHUNU: Could you start with the small boys, the first group?

MR GWAMANDA: I will try and explain it this way. When I got off the car it did not occur to me to count how many there were but they were maybe more than four. There couldn't have been more than 10. I think there were about four or five because when I started shooting two of them were rolling down the slope. They were not many.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second group?

MR GWAMANDA: They were also not many, they were about five or six. There could not have been more than 10 but because it was dark I could not be able to count just how many there were.

MR MCHUNU: Would you also be in a position to give an idea as you did as for the young boys, the ages of the second group?

MR GWAMANDA: They were slightly older because one of them was the same age as the journalist there. Because when I started shooting one of them said I'm an IFP member and Mr Mfayela said: "IFP members do not stand along the road at this time", and I got back into the car. The area I'm referring to is the Mona Lisa area. I'm sure that what I'm saying today is the truth and the person whom I shot will remember this if he is listening.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, why did you shoot at those groups of boys? Why did you obey Mfayela's orders to shoot at boys who as far as you were concerned were doing nothing wrong and were just standing there?

MR GWAMANDA: I had no other alternative because when Mr Mfayela has taken a decision you cannot oppose it. He is a different person from the one who sits in Parliament.

When he is with his colleagues and they have decided on something, you cannot do otherwise. He's a different person when he talks about killing comrades. He also is capable of killing people personally. Even when he killed these children in 1990, people know that he indeed is capable of doing anything with regards to the comrades. The people from Ndwedwe know him. He is a killer.

If you did something wrong at Ndwedwe you would indeed have to deal with Mfayela and his group and it was known that those people would kill.

MR MCHUNU: Can we go ahead? What finally happened with those men you shot?

MR GWAMANDA: I would not know because when I shot it was dark. Ndwedwe is an area that I did not grow up in, I only came there after being released from prison. I was there from March to December 1993, therefore I was not used to the area. I only knew the area when I got close to Mfayela and his police colleagues on our missions killing people. I do not know a lot of people from the Ndwedwe area and the Somkomo area.

Mr Mfayela showed me these areas as I was going with him and he would show me where to kill. People like Mdu, Tini and Zwelake, Gipa as well, all know about Mfayela. I am not telling a lie when I say that he is a killer, I know him very well. He has killed a lot of ANC people and he will turn around and say these people

were IFP victims, but let me return to my application.

"After shooting these boys, Mfayela left me and Zwelake at Mr Zondi's house and he left for the evening. I don't remember quite well, I'm sure whether it was on a Monday the 29th, Mfayela came to my house and he was with Mzimbi Sishi. He took me from home. That is where there should be a correction, it was not Mfega who shot the taxi owner."

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 18 of the document?

MR GWAMANDA: Ja. You should also remember that this statement was taken in a hurry for the Goldstone Commission and it was supposed to be transferred or carried over to the ITU, so there may be mistakes in the statement. I'm just trying to correct that it was not Mfega, he was not present at this incident. I think you should take what I say today.

"Mr Mfayela came to pick us up on the 29th. It was myself, Ntini Tongweni, Zwelaki as well as Mdu Sithole and Msimbi Sishe."

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just repeat those names?

MR GWAMANDA: Zwelaki Mbambo, Mdu Sithole, Ntini Tongweni, Msimbi Sishe - I'm not sure whether that's

his real name or a nickname, and myself as well as Mr Mfayela.

"There were six of us in the Cressida. Msimbi was sitting in the passenger's seat in front ..."

...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, what was Ntini's ...

MR GWAMANDA: Tongweni.

MR LAX: Mtongweni?

MR GWAMANDA: Tongweni.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you. Please proceed.

MR GWAMANDA

"He removed us, he picked us from my home. He waited a bit and he told me that he had come to pick me up and the boys. I got dressed. My children know that he did arrive at my home, even my wife was present and I told her not to make tea because we were in a hurry. It was in the afternoon. We got into the car and left. I had this 9mm pistol and the AK47, the same one that I had carried to the meeting. We drove off.

As we drove past Majlebe we met Terrace Mhlongo in his red van and parked near us and he told us about a sugar-cane that was supposed to be harvested. When he left we also drove off and we went up towards Somkomo.

As we approached it that's when Mr Mfayela pointed out a house, a nice house, a beautiful white house and he said: 'There is that dog who transports comrades. He should be killed and he doesn't listen and today, Gwamanda, you should attack this dog'. And I said: 'I hear you'. I realised that I had been fetched to kill this person. I realised that if I opposed what he was saying I would also be killed but of course he was working in collaboration with the police.

We went up Somkomo. There is an area, a steep area up from the taxi owner's house and there is also a shop nearby. He stopped there and he said: 'After killing this dog you should attack all the area around here and you should use his kombi because the people of Somkomo knew the kombi so they would not suspect anything'. He said we should attack the Somkomo area because there was this bad spirit amongst them, the people in the area, because they were ANC supporters.

We then went back to his house. On arrival there he sprinkled us with the Ntelezi traditional medicine ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who sprinkled you with that medicine?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm going to explain. We met Simo but the person who sprinkled us with the Ntelezi was his younger son, whose name I've forgotten. I can identify him.

"As we were returning to his house we met Simo going to Mr Mfayela's house and he said he should go to sleep. That was a common term used in the Ndwedwe area.

People from Ndwedwe know that if somebody comes to you and asks you why you are not asleep, those people are Mfayela's gang and they are out to kill. I know that the people from Ndwedwe are afraid of speaking out but the community knows that these people would ask you: 'Why are you not asleep'. The people who left the Somkomo are were shot at and they know about this.

We went into the house and Simo, Mr Mfayela's son had a plastic packet similar to that one and he was carrying it like that, it was full of ammunition and he put it on the coffee table. There was also an R1 and two AK47 guns and a 9mm, the one that I had with and another one.

I would like to explain about these boys. The 9mm that was used to kill the boys which I referred to is still in my possession. I did not return it, it is still with Mdu. The police will be able to find it. The 9mm that was used in shooting the boys. The one that was used to kill the taxi owner is with Mr Mfayela but I know that he will not produce it now because he is now a member of parliament and nothing will ever be done to him. ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a short tea adjournment for 20 minutes, I see it's 11 o'clock. We will resume in 20 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You were saying you had your own - you were talking about the 9mm guns and you said that a different one was used, Mr Mfayela's one, at the tea adjournment.

MR GWAMANDA: If I remember well I think I last said we were at Mfayela and coming back, after he had identified the house of, identified the taxi owner's house and I was explaining about the distance as to who should be hit and after that we should confiscate some cars and burn the people. We were talking about the ammunition in the house and about the Ntelezi. I think that is what I last said, I'm not sure.

"At the time when we were in the house we had two AK's, the one that I had in my possession and the one that was in Mfayela's son's possession and who brought it to the house. He left to go fetch the R1. You see they don't keep such guns in the house. These guns that we used to kill people were always hidden outside the house. The guns that were there at the time were two AK's, one R1 and one 9mm 9 shot, not a long one but 9 shot. The one that would have been used to kill the taxi driver and the 9 long that I had in my possession, the one that I said I got it from the station commander and that I did not know his name but now I know he is Hlengwa although he said to me in prison I must not divulge his name.

At the time as I'd already explained there was a plastic bag full of ammunition and we started loading this ammunition in the guns and Simo gave us socks to put on our hands and hand gloves so that our fingerprints won't remain on the cartridges. In case we shoot and the cartridges are lying around, it should not be associated with us in any way because police from Ndwedwe were not longer trusted, they were looked at as hit squad because they were killing around and terrorising around.

But one thing painful I knew was that the people of Mokomo depended on the stability and little did they know that this was the third force. They would pretend as if they were patrolling and yet they have hidden agendas that they would like to fulfil. People did not know about this. You see when you don't know you are as good as not seeing or blind.

At that time we loaded our guns and I had a 9 in my possession, the very one that I had and Mdu took AK and Zwelaki Mbambo took another AK as well and Tendi Dungweni took the 9 shot that I referred to and Simbishisi took the R1 that I referred to as well. This R1 was known very well by Ntindi and Dungweni and Mdu and Zwelaki.

As soon as you shoot using it, it was an automatic one, so that it will not discharge a cartridge. You have to change it and cock it and it will only be then that it will discharge, just like 303. That is how it operated.

Then I took my gun because Sishi had that one and I took my 9 one and gave it to him and I took, in other words we exchanged guns. They could not use that gun and I was the only one who was well conversant with the use of that particular gun. They were not given automatics. I think these whites did not trust themselves, although those Boers who were so filthy did not trust themselves. I know ANC wants so much information and I'm prepared to divulge that much. We left the house and Simo was already waiting for us with a bucket just outside the house.

You see right next to Mfayela's house there was a caravan that was parked there and there was an open space. There are just ordinary houses, one will not think that the owner is the parliament member. That open space that is where the Cressida was parked and he reversed the Cressida a bit, Mfayela himself and stood behind. In other words the car turned and was parked facing the opposite direction. This is how you go to Mfayela's house. On the left it was an open space and that's where he turned the car facing it to the opposite direction. There was a street going upwards, something like a T-junction. You see this is how I'm demonstrating it. There was no any other road ahead, it was a T-junction and you either turn left or right.

Simo was standing there with a bucket behind the car and we were sprinkled, we were told to stir this Ntelezi inside the bucket using firearms, the back of the firearms. In other words, dumping the guns in the Ntelezi and we were told to leave and not to look at the back, we should just go forward. I knew very well that Ntelezi sometimes is mixed with pieces of people's flesh or flesh and I had my own reservations inasfar as what we were doing. We therefore left the place. The Cressida left and charged forward instead of going backwards and it turned a bit and left to the right-hand road and went towards the left. And ...[indistinct] us we should lie down and kill the person there. Simbisishi knew the person very well, the taxi owner.

Simbisishi knew the taxi owner very much because his house was not too far away from where the taxi owner's house was and where the Lindilani people were harboured as well, he knew very well. That place was used as a place of cover for such people who would be in hiding.

As you approach the taxi owner's house you would have to walk upward and leave the other road which is turning, off-ramping from the main road and you go upward and you pass this off-ramp. We alighted from the car and now joined the other route which was leading us to the taxi owner's house.

Another thing that I may say which I believe I should say is: we were using camouflage uniform or clothing, camouflage clothing, yes and Simbi had that on.

We stopped there right on the road leading to the taxi owner's house. It was towards dusk. We saw another kombi approaching and Simbi said: 'Yes, this is the car, this is his very own car.' We emerged immediately and pointed the guns towards the kombi.

So there were two. The first one in front was an E20 and the guy surrendered and lifted up his hands and we approached the vehicle and opened the door and gave the gun to Simbi. I took my 9 and put it in my pocket and I said: 'Leave, we are in a rush, we want to go to Nduzuma. If he remembers very well, the taxi driver that is, he will recall my words.

There was another person, a passenger inside, he was resisting all this and the other boys wanted to assault him and I said no, they should wait a bit. I said to him: 'Stop resisting because you will be in danger in no time'. I told him that: 'We can leave you or drop you at your house'. And Simbi said: 'This is the one that - this is not the one that we are looking for'. This is why we did not even shoot because he was not there. Simbi realised that this is not the person we are looking for because he knew the person very well.

Then we discovered that this is not the person we are after. I said to the person: 'Well shift, give us some room. If you wish we could drop you at that house'. And he said: 'How do you know that house'? I said: 'I know that house, we could drop you if you wish but if you want you can accompany us to Nduzuma and we will bring you back'.

I was winding away time because I knew very well that this is not the person we are looking for or after. He seemed a bit delirious or confused and he resisted, he said he did not want to come along with us.

The old man's house was not too far away from us. I drove the kombi myself, the one that was in front the first one, the E20 one. We got inside, we drove right into the premises and turned around a bit or made a u-turn and right next to the house which had ...[end of tape] said to the others they should get outside the car. He was not too sure why I was saying that because we already had a car. He seemed a bit confused as to why we were not leaving because we already had the car whilst we were whiling away time waiting for the taxi owner to arrive.

As the other one was knocking at the door, Ntini fired. I heard him screaming, the driver that is, the other one was just a boy and he said: 'Father open the door, please open the door', shouting, saying that. And he shot twice. I asked him: 'Why are you shooting because we are not shooting these people'? He answered back and said: 'This one is troublesome and resisting all the instructions'. I said to him: 'Please don't shoot because this will call for attention, people will be aware of what's happening, neighbours that is'.

We saw the next kombi approaching, the second one that is, and we went down, driving down and I parked on the side. The other kombi stopped. Then Simbi said: 'This is the target, this is the person we are looking for, this is the very one who is inside the other car'.

Dongweni was in front and alighted from the vehicle. I think the other one wanted to ask: 'Where are you going at this time'?, wanting to know what's happening because he saw the car approaching the gate and yet it was supposed to have been parked because it was after hours. He shot him here, right on the head using the 9mm. I was a bit terrified and I got outside of the vehicle and I saw a woman who was with the taxi owner and said something that I did not hear and said: 'I'm beginning to be powerless'. He almost shot the women and I said: 'No, don't shoot the woman'. I said to the woman: 'Get off the vehicle'.

We thought we should go back to the other car which was already facing the exit. As I tried to reverse the kombi overturned. Mdu was given me the directions as I was reversing the kombi. Before I knew it the kombi overturned. I kicked the windscreen and exited.

The other kombi had its lights on and I could see that I had a chance to reach the vehicle, the E20 and drive off with it but we left that alone and decided to walk away by foot.

I was not too sure if that was a whistle or a trumpet that was being blown in that house but there was some noise that we heard, sounding something like a trumpet and some gunshots as well we heard but we could not see as to who was being shot at. There was a person already who had gone to Mfayela to report that somebody had been shot already at close range and he rushed us to our houses and he got rid of us immediately from the vicinity. We went back to our house. He dropped us there and he went back.

The following day the white bakkie came again. When I got to Mfayela's house, - I think the kombi I want to talk about now was red, and there was another one, a white one. There were people from Mpumalanga and Mkukuza and Dosiana. There is a mistake there on the statement, they say Hosiana, it Mkukuza, people coming from Mkukuza not Hosiana. So that is an error that's being reflected in the statement.

When I got there I realised that there are already police and everything has been arranged and people should be hit or assaulted at night. The person I'm referring to I did make mention of in the statement although he does not appear in my application.

And even at the time Sister Sheila was investigating this I told her about it but I am so sure, dead sure that at Somkomo there was a person we shot in the street. He was just walking on the street and we shot the person. We were driving along the streets of Somkomo when we shot that particular person, that I'm dead sure of. The cartridges that might have been recovered from the person was the shotgun ..."

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR GWAMANDA: I don't know the person because I don't know people of Somkomo very well. We only went there because we had a purpose of attacking. When they were investigating the matter that did not surface as well but I did mention that I am sure about a person in Somkomo who was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot that person?

MR GWAMANDA: The boys who had the shotguns, coming from Mkukuza, who were at the back of the car. I am very sure, so certain about this. I mean even Zwelaki and Mdu know very well about this and even the police from Ndwedwe. I am definitely, definitely sure about this, that a person was killed or shot in Mkukuza. I am so sure, very sure ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] sure about it Mr Gwamanda, could you just continue please.

MR LAX: Sorry, before he does.

When exactly was this particular incident you're talking about?

MR GWAMANDA: In 1993.

MR LAX: ...[inaudible] after this kombi incident with the taxi driver or before that?

MR GWAMANDA: Before. What was happening at the taxi driver's premises people knew very well. This happened after, before I was arrested on the 6th of December when I took this information to or reported it to the police.

MR LAX: What we're trying to do Mr Gwamanda, is we are trying to put a chronological order into your story so that it can ...[intervention]

MR GWAMANDA: I hear that very well, but this happened after the taxi driver incident. When this incident of the taxi driver happened the police seemed not too sure about what was happening but I'm definitely sure.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] also be in a position to say how long after the incident of the taxi driver?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm trying to explain now about this operation of these boys and the Cele issue. It was not too long after that. I'm counting these things or I'm relating these things in the way they happened chronologically.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] days or hours or even months?

MR GWAMANDA: This is how I will explain this, let me go through my calendar of 1993 and give you accurate information. It may be the 1st or the 2nd, I'm not too sure for the taxi driver but I'm think the taxi driver issue was around 29 November. Then on the 30th, it may be on the 30th because these operations happened one after another.

I remember I was feeling sleepy at this particular incident because it's been some time that I had not had rest because of being so involved and busy. This must have happened around the time between the 30th and the 1st of December.

"It was at the time when I found people or a gang from Mkukuza and Mpumalanga. Now amongst that gang the person I remember very well, explicitly so was Mashunisa. That was a nickname because they will say before it's dusk there's got to be a person who should be killed, so the name Mashunisa stemmed from that understanding.

They were there at Sishi, that's where the police had gathered as well and there were various operations. Some left with Giba in a bakkie and we used an Indian bakkie of Tongaat. I think about 16 to 18, that was the number of the group I belonged to.

That is why I'm saying I am definitely sure that we killed a person or we shot a person because Giba came and joined us and it was said that he's bringing guns from Ulundi. Gipa was known. Whenever Gipa was being seen he would be driving this bakkie because he was transporting the guns from Ulundi, from Powen, the very guns that he referred to as the kwaZulu Natal guns. They were the guns that were used to terrorise people and he had AK's as well and the guns that were being used by the ZP's, G3's and shotguns. He brought them with as well. We were about 18 in that bakkie.

We also had other people like Stolz, Sabata as well as Keke and Nzama.

We were in the company of those police in our group and there was another policeman I did not know at the time. I did not know his surname. He was from Ndwedwe. He was the one organising people or a gang from Mkukuza. We left.

I may not know all the people who gathered there. You get there and you take your weapon and off you go on a mission, you don't have time to figure around as to who is who and the names as well. I told myself I will give a full report after everything has happened.

I took into consideration the police and the Boers who would arrive at Mfayela's house to give explanations or directions as to who should be killed. We left with that group. The one that was with Gipa reported that a woman and a man were killed. People who were affiliated to ANC I suppose. That's the report they gave back, that a man and a woman were killed. But our group killed a person who was walking along the streets.

And another house that was shot far away from where we were we did not get into the premises or the house but we shot from outside. This is what our group did. After we left to give the report to Father Mfayela. He was respected because of killing people.

I then decided to change my mind because there were other people of ANC that I had already leaked some information to. I also said: 'We are the ones who are killing people, given the mandate by the parliament to kill people around. We are the ones, it's not the Ndwedwe policemen as such who were the killers'.

You would think those were the Ndwedwe policemen who were killing, yet it was not true, it was us who were killing. Even the community of Ndwedwe did not trust that much the police but they did not know or rather they knew little about the activities of my group but I know very well that Mufumadi must not entertain these police in the police force because they are killers. Mfayela is a killer himself and his hands are full of blood and he is spoiling the whole parliament of kwaZulu Natal.

Inasfar, or with regard to the other incidents or issues I may explain thusfar. There are things that I was not directly involved in, like the third force activities of kwaZulu Natal. I'm not in a position to divulge such information to the Truth Commission with regard to those activities but what I've already given to the Commission must be taken further than this because I know very well the activities of kwaZulu Natal although I'm not in a position to divulge more ..."

MR LAX: ...[inaudible] in a whole lot of general terms, are there aspects of your application, any other incidents that you want to tell us about specifically? This is very general stuff that you're now saying, can you try and stick to the specifics of the application?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm done.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MCHUNU: I understand that in one of the operations, I think at the stage when groups of 18 ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat his question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MCHUNU: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

I understand that in one of the incidents, particularly when groups were divided, groups of 18 each, people, an attack was planned on Mr Meyiwa(?), is that right?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Do you know anything about that?

MR GWAMANDA: That's when - there were times when there would be plans about attacks but I would not have been in attendance so I may not have full information.

MR MCHUNU: Would you briefly tell this Commission what you know?

CHAIRPERSON: About Meyiwa's death?

MR GWAMANDA: I would say there was another meeting that was called at Mfayela's house. Mfayela was present, ...[indistinct] and the station commander was present. I did not know his name, and Captain Hlengwa and Pa(?) was in attendance as well and myself. We planned there properly that we should ...[indistinct], Million Meyiwa should be killed. He was a leader of ANC at Somkomo.

He should be arrested after he's been killed and be disposed of in some place that SAP is patrolling or known to be patrolling often. That's how he should be discovered. We shouldn't be suspected in any way to have done this. This would be protecting us if we executed the way we planned. This is what I know inasfar as that plan is concerned, that Meyiwa the ANC leader at Somkomo area there was a plan to kill him.

In November 6 I was arrested by Mabanga and I was kept in custody and they wanted the firearms that were in my possession as I was there in the cell whilst the matter was investigated. It was sometime in December that I heard that Meyiwa passed away. I was told by one of the police there at Ndwedwe. I'm trying to recall the name, the SAP. His name is Mgwane and he is the one who gave me this information or the report that the man has been killed already.

Mbanga assaulted me and other police as well, wanting the guns that were in my possession. I appeared in the Court of law and I was told that I had been arrested and my charge, I was charged for robbery. They lied so much at Court and that's what me to be convicted because I'd already noted that there were other police who were using the state's money.

When the secretary or the clerk was short, that was because of the police, because I was there and I was sent to go and fetch some money. The police who shot the clerk were arrested and I was arrested as well and I was asked to submit a statement. I was with my girlfriend who was coming from Ntombela's area. ...[intervention]

MR LAX: With regard to that matter that you were arrested for, you aren't applying for amnesty for that are you?

MR GWAMANDA: I'm just trying to explain. I have to explain that I have been involved in so many many things although I'm not asking for amnesty inasfar as that is concerned. It's a criminal matter of course, it's obvious but I'm trying to tell you how much I've gone through and you should know who is sitting in front of you.

MR LAX: If you can just hear us, that's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We have read your affidavit.

MR LAX: We know that's in the papers but we would like to try and save a bit of time and not necessarily traverse that thing if it's not directly relevant to our application.

MR MCHUNU: But perhaps, Mr Chairman, I think there are two incidences of robbery here, there's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This is the pension payout robbery he's referring to now, yes.

MR MCHUNU: That's correct. I thought he's directly referring to that now.

MR LAX: You see, Mr Mchunu, you can maybe address us if you think it's crucially relevant to his application but from our looking at it it doesn't appear to be so and we would much more profitably deal, use this time to deal with other things that are relevant to the application.

MR MCHUNU: Point taken.

Mr Gwamanda, if I may just take you back just a little bit to the attempt to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa, the first point around which your application is based. I understand that it did not go through. Were you at any stage informed as to why it could not go ahead?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I was not informed. I was not informed subsequently. As I look into that there is something that you need to understand here, especially Matthew Phosa's attorney. I will ask him to pay attention to this.

You see I am given limitations here by the judge, the judge keeps telling me I am out of order. You see

I have so many scratches or scars around my arms, people trying to kill me in prison whilst I'm asleep at night. I'm trying to say all these things to the Commission but the judge keeps reprimanding me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda please, we hear what you but we're here to listen to an application in respect of specific events. We don't want to restrict you unnecessarily but we can't hear your whole life history regarding matters that are not relevant to the application. All we ask is that you stick to matters relevant to the application.

Now Mr Mchunu has asked you about the assassination, the planned assassination attempt on Mr Phosa, now if you could just answer the question we would appreciate that.

MR GWAMANDA: I hear that very well, Chairman. I'm trying to explain now inasfar as Matthew Phosa's issue is concerned.

I cannot expatiate much here about other activities that were going on in Mpumalanga that were being planned by the AWB Boers. There were so many of them but I don't have time or an opportunity to lay this before the Commission, so this restricts me a great deal.

I'm trying to say to Matthew Phosa I am sorry, I was instructed to kill him. I was indeed going to instruct(?) him because the AWB was in my company. I won't sit here and lie and say I wasn't anyway going to shoot Matthew Phosa but I was. That I should accept but the Committee is restricting me in saying other things like my wife and girlfriends but see I cannot talk about such things because of time constraints.

MR MCHUNU: There are incidents here that I've been able to pick up from your evidence, there are seven points or sorry, six points. Sorry, Mr Chairman. There are six points in all around which your application is based. The first one is an aborted attempt to assassinate Matthew Phosa.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Number two is an assault on the school teacher, Mr Cele.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Number three, an attack on young men aged about 10 at Nompeto. Number four, an attack on plus minus seven males at Mona Lisa.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Which happened about the same day as the third incident. Number five, an attack on the taxi owner, Mr Gumede.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: And lastly, an attack on an unknown male at Somkomo.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Could you please tell this Commission if at any stage you were arrested or charged in respect of any of these incidents?

MR GWAMANDA: I was arrested for murder and robbery. On the 6th I was arrested but look at so many cases that I have and I was not arrested for any of those. I was only arrested for my car and I was stabbed and I don't even have a house now. Not even one of those. This is why I'm appearing here, to ask for amnesty for these deeds.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] or brought to Court in respect of all these incidents?

MR GWAMANDA: No, no-one was arrested for these, wherever they are they are so comfortable and happy with themselves.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MCHUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

Mr Mpshe, I notice the applicant mentioned the name of a person who I don't think the name appears in the affidavit, the station commander of the police station one, Hlengwa. It will be necessary to give him a notice as being an implicated person in terms of, is it Section 30 or 34? Yes, Section 30.

ADV MPSHE: Ja, that will be done, Mr Chairman, it will be Section 30.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Section 30, thank you.

Mr Mukadam, do you have any questions to ask to the witness?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, we've arranged ...[end of tape].

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Falconer, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR FALCONER: I do, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I commence questioning, there are further person who have been implicated in these proceedings who I have appeared before or on behalf of before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I don't have an instruction to appear on behalf of them today. They have been implicated and they have not been notified. I've given a list of those persons to Mr Mpshe and depending upon the outcome of the notification I might receive instructions to put further questions to this witness in due course, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Falconer.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, it would appear that you have had a very long and extensive career in crime, would you agree with me?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I was arrested for robbery and I left school.

MR FALCONER: How old were you when you were first arrested for robbery and you left school?

MR GWAMANDA: Look at your records, don't ask me, I don't have time.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, I'm asking you a question and you are obliged to answer it. How old were you when you were expelled from school for the robbery related incident?

MR GWAMANDA: I was not expelled for such deeds. I was expelled about the issues of "Black Power" in 1976, not related to what you are asking me.

MR FALCONER: How old were you in 1976?

MR GWAMANDA: Please count yourself because I was born in 1962.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, you must please answer the questions if you can. You say you were born in 1962?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes. You see what he is asking me is not legitimate at all because there are things I'm not given an opportunity to lay before the Commission. I'm restricted and why is he not restricted? I was politically active and I was not a criminal as such. Let him refer his questions to issues that are amnesty related, not anything outside that. If you think I'm afraid ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, we will determine whether it's relevant or not and if he asks or if anybody asks you questions that are not pertinent or relevant then they will be prevented from doing so.

MR GWAMANDA: He must not ask me this question because I was not afforded an opportunity as to how I got into criminal issues. So he must not ask me questions that has to do with my criminal involvement but he must ask me questions that has to do with amnesty. This Boer, I mean ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, Mr Gwamanda, you must not use this as a forum to insult people, and answer questions when asked. If the question is irrelevant we will stop it.

MR GWAMANDA: You see I'm not afraid of anything because I was arrested for my car and I'm prepared to serve my sentence in prison. I never killed - my mother never told me to kill, even in my records. Why is he asking me illegitimate questions? You see I worked, I have my ID with me. He must not ask me about my involvement, criminal involvement. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please Mr Gwamanda. We'll take an adjournment now please just so that matters can cool down. We can't have this going on at the hearing. We'll just take a five minute adjournment.

Mr Mchunu?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, it's apparent from your list of criminal convictions that we've been furnished with, page 6 of the bundle, that on that list you've been arrested and charged and convicted in respect of eight offences, do you agree with that?

MR GWAMANDA: Can I please have a look at the record because I don't have it with me?

CHAIRPERSON: It's on page 6 of the bundle.

MR GWAMANDA: Okay, okay, Mr Chairman, let me have a look at it. Did you say eight?

MR FALCONER: That is correct.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I do agree with that, I'm on my ninth crime.

MR FALCONER: So you'd agree with me that those offences include serious offences of armed robbery and firearm related offences?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR FALCONER: And Mr Gwamanda, as you've just pointed out now, this list is not complete in that you are presently serving a sentence for armed robbery, is that correct?

MR GWAMANDA: I was not armed. The Judge said he was sentencing me with regards to my car but I do agree with you on these other crimes.

MR FALCONER: Was the incident relating to the armed robbery on the Blue Ribbon Bakery in Tongaat?

MR GWAMANDA: I don't even know that bakery, I had nothing to do with that. I just heard about it when I was arrested and nobody has claimed that I robbed anybody anything. I was arrested for the car.

MR FALCONER: And in addition then, Mr Gwamanda, it would also seem apparent from your evidence that you were involved in a further armed robber, that relating to the pension moneys.

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct. I also stated this at the Regional Court. I was a state witness because I was involved in the planning but not in the actual robbery.

MR FALCONER: In regard to the pension robber where you correctly state you were a state witness, is it further correct that there were no convictions emanating from the charges and the evidence which you gave at that trial, all of the accused were acquitted?

MR GWAMANDA: What was said was that Judge MacNally did not charge them, that is the Attorney-General. With regards to that evidence, the evidence was covered up. I wrote a letter to the Attorney-General regarding the reasons for not prosecuting these people and even today I'm still waiting for the prosecutor's or the Attorney-General's decision on the prosecution on those people. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gwamanda, could I just you on this, you mentioned that you were a state witness. So it never got to trial? You didn't go into Court and take the oath and testify?

MR GWAMANDA: It did go to trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it did. And what happened at the trial? I'm a bit confused because you said that you testified at the trial but at the same time you say that MacNally didn't prosecute. So I'm just a bit confused as to how it came to be in the trial situation if there was a refusal to prosecute, could you just explain that please?

MR GWAMANDA: I think the Attorney-General conducted an inquest. I have the letter from the Attorney-General and that is the letter I had written to the Attorney-General. He advised that he had conducted an inquest. The case had already been withdrawn because the detectives had covered up the evidence and I was arrested because I had divulged the information regarding the crime.

I informed the Attorney-General about this and it was stated categorically that the Attorney-General had not prosecuted them. I did say that I had informed the Attorney-General about a crime that had happened on the 24th of November. I do not know up to this day why the Attorney-General did not prosecute or did not charge them. I was not given the reasons.

I even wrote to George Howard and he told me that the case was under the Attorney-General's discretion. I have the letters that I have written to both these persons. I made every attempt to explain or to give information about these crimes and these people were not charged.

Even in the Court tapes it did appear that they were not prosecuted. I am not sure why they were not charged because I was the prime witness, I witnessed this crime and I knew about it.

MR FALCONER: For the record, Mr Gwamanda, one of those persons whom I represent in these proceedings, Mr Vusi Mate was one of the accused in that matter relating to the pension robbery and he instructs me that he together with others stood trial whereat you testified as a state witness, and on the basis of the unreliability of your evidence they were all acquitted.

MR GWAMANDA: As I've explained before I do not know why Judge MacNally did not charge them. What Mate is saying I cannot agree to or oppose to, I just gave my evidence. I was told that I was implicated in the crime and if I did not tell the truth I will be prosecuted but if I told the truth the Court would accept my evidence. If my evidence was unreliable I should have been prosecuted as promised earlier.

It was explained to me that the people were not charged for that crime and because I'm not a prosecutor I cannot explain why. I do not even know up to this day why the Attorney-General did not prosecute these

people.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, whilst we're on this issue I put it to you that Mr Mate denies that he was involved in the pension offence as you allege he was.

MR GWAMANDA: I say Mr Mate was indeed involved. He even mentioned that he signs for the cheque from the bank and he mentioned the amount that the people carry to Nxeto(?) and even with regards to the issue at Sendisweni it was his instruction to go rob that place. He is directly involved in these scams.

There were two cars, he was in the second car but he did not shoot when these robbers started attacking. He is a criminal and he was involved in these incidents.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, to move onto another issue, would you please look at your affidavit and in particular I'd like to you to look at page 11.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can refer to the paragraph number. I don't think Mr Gwamanda has got the bundle numbers in his affidavit.

MR FALCONER: Yes, certainly, Mr Chairman. Paragraph 10. Now I'm going to read to you the relevant sentence. It's the last sentence that you will see on the one page which reads as follows

"Lieutenant Venter told us that if the attack of Matthew Phosa who is now a Premier, is successful, we would be given a reward for that work."

Do you remember this as being part of your statement which you deposed to under oath?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I did and I've mentioned it here when I spoke of Venter. He did say that after we'd carried out the job we would get a certain reward.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, what did you understand that reward to be? Would it be in the form of money?

MR GWAMANDA: There was nothing else except money. When I talk of a reward I'm just saying that he did not refer to a specific amount but he did say that we would get a reward of money.

MR FALCONER: And no doubt you were quite happy to learn that you would be rewarded for your efforts?

MR GWAMANDA: At the time there was no other alternative because I was working with him, I had to be happy.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, I would like to then refer you to an affidavit deposed to by Milton Begukwaki Gumede ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what page is this on, Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: 40.

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker repeat the page?

CHAIRPERSON: 40. Do you have a copy of that affidavit, Mr Gwmanda? It's an affidavit by one, Milton Begukwaki Gumede.

MR GWAMANDA: I have it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your one written or typed?

MR GWAMANDA: It is typed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Now you will recall, Mr Gwamanda, it would seem that what is contained in this affidavit refers to an offence which you have referred to pertaining to the attempted murder of a taxi owner in the Ndwedwe area, would you agree?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I do, that's correct.

MR FALCONER: You'll see at paragraph 3 of that same affidavit, Mr Gumede states

"There were - the culprits robbed us of cash, plus minus R300,00 and my brother's kombi, a blue Toyota Hi-Ace."

And then he gives the registration number. Would you agree with what's contained there?

MR GWAMANDA: With regards to the cash I cannot comment on that because I was behind the steering wheel. I don't know anything about the money but with regards to the kombi, the Toyota High-Ace with that registration number, I would say it must have been the one that overturned.

I was only trying to explain the objectives, the reasons for going there. I was not alone when that incident occurred. If he remembers correctly, I was behind the steering wheel and the people that I that I was with will also know that I'm telling the truth.

I am not denying that money have been lost or taken but I was just explaining the reasons as to why we went to that house. There is nothing that I can agree or deny. All I know is that the kombi overturned and I did not take any money from the scene. That is what I was trying to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, how did you manage to overturn a kombi while you're reversing it?

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I think I was in a state of shock because a gun had been fired, I heard gunfire. Throughout my life you'd notice that I had never killed somebody. I was shocked went off or when this person was shot. And he also said that he was dying and therefore I was in shock. I think it was because I was in shock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

As the Chairman has correctly pointed out, Mr Gwamanda, in your affidavit you state and I'll read from your affidavit:

"As I reversed this kombi it overturned and we got out and ran away."

Now from that, would it be correct to infer that it was your intention to depart with that kombi owned by Mr Gumede?

MR GWAMANDA: As I explained before we did not have transport. Mfayela had just dropped us there and he had instructed us to take the kombi and use it later on. Therefore we did have the intention of taking the kombi, using it and use it to shoot around the area and then we would burn it thereafter but then it happened that it overturned. I could have taken the other kombi in the yard but because I was in a state of shock I decided to run away.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, please help me then. Do I understand your evidence to be that you are not a position to deny that R300,00 might have been taken and do I understand further correctly, that it was your intention to remove that kombi to use at a later stage? If you could keep your answer to a brief yes or no please.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, it was my intention. It was the instruction of Mr Mfayela that we should take the kombi, so it was not just my intention.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, from your evidence it would seem that most of these offences, including this attack on Mr Gumede and that in regard to the pension robbery and it would seem the offence for which you were convicted and you are presently incarcerated, all took place within a relatively short space of time, would you agree with me?

MR GWAMANDA: I do not want to involve the ...[indistinct], it was not political. I do not know that area very well but whatever criminal activities took place there were under the instruction of Mr Mfayela.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, if you could please just try and answer my question. You've got to try and assist this Committee in your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked by Mr Falconer, Mr Gwamanda, is this incident that you refer to relating to the taxi owner and the offence for which you were charge and convicted, for which you are presently serving, although we know your attitude about that, but the allegations relating to that as well the pension scheme, did they all happen within a short period of time?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, I want to put to you a difficulty that I have then with your amnesty application. For a start you've got a comprehensive criminal record of at least nine previous convictions, all of which are unrelated to politics. On your own evidence you say that you expected monetary reward in respect of an attack to be carried out on Mr Phosa.

In respect of the alleged attack on Mr Gumede you cannot dispute that money might have been taken from the scene and you yourself were stealing the motor vehicle belonging to that taxi owner.

Now I put it to you that your primary motive in these offences was not of a political one but merely crime for your own benefit and reward.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I will try and explain it. It was not my intention or I did not have criminal intentions. It is true that I have the criminal record. I did not have any criminal intentions or objectives with regards to what happened at that area.

What you could say it may have been criminal activity that was directed or orchestrated by Mr Mfayela because this was done on his instructions and I was not alone when this happened. I did not take any cash from whatever person.

If it was something that is directly related to me or if I had intentions of committing criminal activities I would have mentioned this because I was looked after at my home but these matters related to political intentions, Mr Mfayela's intentions.

I should also direct you to paragraph 7 of the same affidavit which related to Mr Mfayela and the person concerned. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, did Mr Mfayela at any stage offer you a reward for performing acts ordered by him or did he in fact ever pay you any money for doing any acts instructed by him?

MR GWAMANDA: No, he never specified amounts for these activities, except of course when we would require money for whatever the reason, maybe for food or something but he would never pay me any specific amounts for these activities. If I remember correctly, he gave me money twice, about R300,00 or R400,00.

CHAIRPERSON: Those payments of R300,00 or R400,00 twice, was that because you had done work for him, as a reward or was it for you to buy food or what was it?

MR GWAMANDA: It would be something like pocket money. Maybe I would say I do not have any money and he would give me some money, maybe to buy cigarettes or something, not to say that it was a reward.

When I enquired about my salary, who was supposed to pay my salary, he told me that he was in contact with Mr Mzimela from Ulundi. There is a statement that was taken Stephan Meyer, a statement relating to what I'm explaining now but it does not appear amongst the bundle. That statement was deposed to by me in the prison. The statement is not in the bundle though ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, at that stage in November, round about November 1993 when you were acting as bodyguard for Mr Mfayela, you weren't getting a regular monthly salary for that work, being a bodyguard?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I did not receive a salary. That is why I started enquiring about my salary and I was told that Mr Mzimela was pursuing the matter, Mr Mzimela from Ulundi. I did explain this in a statement to the TRC Investigators. I did not receive a reward as such but I did receive pocket money.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, there's one last aspect that I need to deal with with this witness. I see that we're approaching the lunch adjournment time and I believe it may assist this Commission if I'm afforded an opportunity to get information from the records at the Westville Prison. I can obtain those hopefully during the lunch adjournment so it may be an appropriate opportunity if we were to take the adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd prefer it if we could have a shorter lunch adjournment, in the hope that we can proceed further with this matter today. I was thinking in terms of say half an hour or say at most a forty minute lunch adjournment. If you could try and keep to that then, Mr Falconer.

Yes, Mr Gwamanda?

MR GWAMANDA: Sorry, Mr Chairman. I would like to apologise for the incident that happened before. I was quite upset.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Gwamanda, we can understand you being distraught and upset and we don't hold it against you at all.

MR GWAMANDA: I do beg your pardon, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the lunch adjournment for half an hour, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FALCONER: (continued) Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Gwamanda, can I refer you to page 2 of the bundle of documents before you, which is the form you completed for amnesty. You'll see at paragraph 9(a) (ii), it's the second bottom paragraph there, they refer to dates and there you've recorded dates of the matters for which you seek amnesty as being the 28th, 29th and 30th November 1993, being the dates of the alleged incidents. Do you see that?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I see it.

MR FALCONER: What is confusing to me, Mr Gwamanda, is that I'm informed that you were arrested in respect of the pension robbery on or about the 23rd of November 1993, would you dispute that?

MR GWAMANDA: I dispute it. The pension crime happened on the 24th of November.

MR FALCONER: And on what date were you arrested in respect of the pension crime?

MR GWAMANDA: Just hold on a bit, I'd like to have a look at the calendar. It was the 24th of November. With regards to the pension issue I was not exactly arrested but I was helping the police in identifying the people who were involved. But because of the information that I had I had to sleep or spend my time at the police station, that is in the cells of the kwaMashu Police Station because I had been involved in the planning of this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, so are you saying that the pension robbery, that occurred on the 24th of November, was it one the same day that you then starting assisting the police or when did you have to stay with the police? As you say you weren't arrested exactly but you had to stay with the police as you were helping, when did that happen? Was it also on the 24th or was it later? If it was later, can you remember more or less when?

MR GWAMANDA: I remember quite clearly. I got into contact with a detective from Ndwedwe, Mr Mhlongo on the same day, the 24th, immediately after the incident occurred. That was when I started working with the policemen.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, how long did you remain with the police whilst you assisted them with their investigations in that matter?

MR GWAMANDA: It was the 24th, 25th and then on the 26th when they had rounded up the people who had been involved they released me in the afternoon of the 26th. They took me home because even the suspects in the pension crime were not denying the crime. I was released on the 26th in the afternoon and they left me at home.

MR FALCONER: The offence for which you are currently incarcerated, when did that take place?

MR GWAMANDA: I do not know when it occurred. I was arrested on the 6th of December and they wanted guns from me but with regards to the crime I have no idea when it did happen or what it was all about but I was arrested on the 6th of December.

MR FALCONER: You see the information I have at my disposal reflects that the case number for which, the case in which you were convicted, the case number is one which was opened in October 1993. In fact it's number 252/10/93, would you agree with that?

MR GWAMANDA: Let me just have a look.

MR GWAMANDA: My case number is 41505893.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think, Mr Gwamanda, there is a difference between a case number, a case number is a number issued by the Court. The police when they open a docket they have a, I don't know what they call it these days, a CR number or a CAS number and that will be different from the case number. I think the number that Mr Falconer has given you, 252/10/93 is the police docket number as opposed to the case number.

MR FALCONER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR GWAMANDA: I would not know what the CR number was, I was just referring to the case number.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you deny that the CR number was 252/10/93 or have you just got no comment on that?

MR GWAMANDA: The CR number that I see is 252/10/93.

CHAIRPERSON: Then that's the number, thank you.

MR FALCONER: What is that page you're reading from there, Mr Gwamanda, is that a charge-sheet?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, it is a charge-sheet where it is alleged that I robbed R90-thousand. They have written or they've made a report. That is the entire file with regards to that crime. I have written to the Minister of Justice about it and I've written to the Legal Aid Board as well and I have been granted legal aid for an appeal.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, it's going to save a lot of time if you'll confine yourself to my questions. Would it be correct to infer then that because the CR number is an October 1993 number, that the offence for which you are currently incarcerated took place in October 1993? You should be able to see it in the charge sheet.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can answer that, Mr Gwamanda. We understand your attitude towards that case. Have you got the charge sheet there, when is it alleged that that offence was committed, the one that you say you were wrongly convicted for?

MR GWAMANDA: It is alleged that it happened as reflected in the CR number.

CHAIRPERSON: In October 1993?

MR GWAMANDA: And you were only arrested for that offence on the 6th of December 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said, Mr Falconer.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, those persons whom I represent in these proceedings deny that they were involved in any way whatsoever in the unlawful and criminal activities which you have described and which you have implicated them in.

MR GWAMANDA: They are lying, they are involved and they are well aware of these incidents.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FALCONER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Falconer. Mr Nel, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, you did say earlier that you actively took part in the struggle, am I correct?

MR GWAMANDA: You mean before I was arrested for these incidents?

MR NEL: Let's investigate that. When and at what age did you start taking part in politics and in the struggle?

MR GWAMANDA: Please repeat your question.

MR NEL: What ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I think the interpreters have technical problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, I think if you can just repeat the question and let's see if Mr Gwamanda gets the interpretation.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

My question was, Mr Gwamanda, at what age did you start your political career and did you start taking part in the struggle as such?

MR GWAMANDA: Inasfar as the struggle is concerned, I started in 1976 when I joined the "Black Power", resisting against Africans or Afrikaans and I gathered that from Orlando East, 659 Orlando East, where I was taught the struggle.

MR NEL: Now you say that you were expelled from school during 1976, is that correct?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And after you left school or after you had been expelled, what did you then do with regards to the struggle?

MR GWAMANDA: There was nothing else I could do inasfar as the struggle was concerned because the whole thing was banned and I was still young. I was also told that Afrikaans(?) was not wanted but we could not do much or further because the political organisation was banned then. I was 14 years of age.

MR NEL: You didn't contemplate leaving the country in 1976 like many other people did?

MR GWAMANDA: That crossed my mind in 1980, to the extent that I even left and returned from Pongolo(?). I did not know then what to do when I get to Swaziland. I had all these questions coming in my mind that I'd even decided to return, to come back and not to cross because the person I could connect with had already lost connection with the person.

MR NEL: By that time, 1980, you had already been convicted of two criminal offences, would you agree with me?

MR GWAMANDA: 1998? What year?

CHAIRPERSON: 1980.

MR GWAMANDA: I agree with you because in 1977 I had a spray gun that I wanted to use in disturbing the teacher and I was arrested and I was given lashes, five lashes. I also had a case with a goat, related to a goat and I was also given lashes. We were just being naughty as boys. I was given a warning and I was questioned but discharged.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, at the age of 15 you'd already been branded a criminal, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he had a record, we know that.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Now Mr Gwamanda, maybe you would like to have a look at your calendar, if I may go onto the next issue. According to your statement you say that during 1990,

this is paragraph 3 on the top of the page:

"During 1990, whilst serving sentence in Barberton Town Prison."

Can you tell us, with reference to your calendar, when exactly you went to Barberton Town Prison?

MR GWAMANDA: With regards to my calendar, my calendar is a 1993, I have with me a 1993 calendar.

MR NEL: You'd obviously not find it in the 1993 calendar. You did say in your evidence exactly like you stated in your statement, that is was during 1993 whilst you were serving at Barberton Town Prison. My question, Mr Gwamanda is, can you recall perhaps when you went to Barberton ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, he said - this is according to my note, he said that he was arrested etc., he went to Empangeni then Point and he said

"A year later in 1985 I was taken to Barberton Prison Maximum. I was taken from Maximum to Medium B, then to Open Camp and then in 1990, to Town Prison."

MR NEL: That's correct, Mr Chairman, I have the notes like that as well. I just wanted to know if he could possibly recall when in 1990 he went to Barberton Town Prison.

MR LAX: Sorry, the mistake was that you said '93, that's why we were confused.

MR NEL: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, 1990.

You did say in your evidence that you went to Barberton Town Prison during 1990 and also that is reflected in your statement, can you recall when perhaps, early 1990, late 1990?

MR GWAMANDA: I may not be in a position to recollect all of that information because I had no diary. I will say it was in the middle of 1990 because 1990 had already started. Not unless I verify this information with Barberton Town Prison, to give you accurate response as far as dates are concerned, so I may not remember. In fact I don't remember to be quite honest.

MR NEL: But are you still adamant that it was in 1990 that you went to Barberton Town Prison and it's during this time that you met a person called Elijah Mhlaba?

MR GWAMANDA: This Elijah Mhlaba I met in Town Prison from '90 or 1991. I may not remember. In fact I don't remember the year. I do remember though that it was the '90's and Elijah was definitely there at Town Prison.

MR NEL: I have a record of a from called a G327 which I obtained from Barberton Town Prison and that reflects that you were admitted to Barberton Town Prison at 09h20 on the 8th of April 1991, would that be accurate or would you say that's incorrect?

MR GWAMANDA: I wouldn't know but what I know is it was in '90. With regards to that form I don't have any knowledge of what's contained there.

I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I did not explain about Town Prison. Town Prison has bullet marks around the walls where prisoners will shoot. In fact it's a filthy prison. Even if you can go to inspect it around you will realise that it's a dilapidated prison and one thing for sure I was sent there and I was there. That's all I will say.

CHAIRPERSON: So in response to what's being put to you by Mr Nel, he says he's got a form there that says you were admitted on the 8th of April 1991, are you denying that or are you saying that might be correct or are you insisting that you went into Town Prison during 1990?

MR GWAMANDA: Mr Chairman, let me agree to that, let me say yes to what is saying. I'm agreeing that in 1991 I went to Town Prison but I'm trying to point at is that I was indeed in Town Prison but as for the year he has just mentioned, well I will say yes to what he has read and agree to it.

MR NEL: Would you then agree with me that your statement must be a mistake and you also then made a mistake this morning when you gave your evidence in saying that you went to Barberton Town Prison in 1990, if you agree with the form that I have with me?

MR GWAMANDA: What I will say is that I did not make any mistake in my statement. My statement is only pointing or giving indications as to the facts that I went to Town Prison but as to the details, let's not pay attention to details inasfar as these deeds are concerned. I did mention that there are errors in my statement but let's concentrate on that, let's dwell on the fact that yes, I was in the Town Prison. As for the details and as far as days are concerned, can we put that to rest?

MR NEL: I would like to put it to rest Mr Gwamanda, but it's not so easy just to put something to rest. All I want to know is, do you agree that you could have possibly made a mistake by saying in your evidence in chief and also in your statement under oath, that you were transferred to Barberton Town Prison in 1990?

MR GWAMANDA: I will not agree that I made a mistake.

MR NEL: Very well. Elijah Mhlaba, you did say that you became friends with Elijah Mhlaba.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And you also stated that Elijah Mhlaba pleaded with you to become or to say that you are a member of the IFP.

MR GWAMANDA: Very well.

MR NEL: Why did he plead with you?

MR GWAMANDA: I would not know but one thing I think he pleaded with me for was that he knew that he was getting paid much better because he was superior inmate or a superior prisoner and he was very well known. He was a superior prisoner and so myself and the other two, the four were superior prisoners in the prison.

MR NEL: How did you become a superior prisoner in Barberton Town Prison?

MR GWAMANDA: That's stemmed from the day I agreed to work with him hand-in-hand because he had already become a member of the AWB a long time ago or working with the AWB member a long time ago. So when I joined we became therefore or we assumed a better position and we were therefore superior. We could also have girlfriends there.

It's a privilege you cannot enjoy when you're not a superior prisoner in prison. So we were different from other inmates because we could do other things that other prisoners could not do. We would do things like entertaining ourselves, living so comfortably, enjoying some privileges or being superior to others and other prisoners were complaining, not to forget to mention that, about our status in prison.

MR NEL: Are you saying that you started to enjoy more privileges once you joined the IFP and were introduced to the AWB members?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, that marked the beginning of my comfort and of my being superior as a prisoner.

MR NEL: Who and when did you meet of the AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: The person I met, the first time I had a conversation with was Sergeant Venter, Lieutenant Venter and the people were so close to us because Venter was an assistant of the Town Prison authority. The head of the prison was Augusteyn(?). We used to call him Chuck Norris because this is how would demonstrate about his shoulders, just like Chuck Norris. When you speak to him you'll to kneel down a distance from him. Medium B is known very well ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was his name?

MR GWAMANDA: We used to call him Chuck Norris.

CHAIRPERSON: But what was his name?

MR GWAMANDA: He had a name-tag, it was written Kristen(?).

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not quite clear about he is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Grissel?

MR GWAMANDA: Around there.

CHAIRPERSON: G-R-I-E-S-S-E-L or something like that?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, just around there. I'm not too sure about the spelling but it's pronounced the way I did, somewhere there.

MR NEL: When you met Sergeant Venter as a person belonging to the AWB, what did he tell you with regards to the AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: I thank you for that question, that's a wonderful question. He told me that AWB is the owner of this country. This Matthew Phosa and others are a bad influence in this country, they're disturbing the leadership of the Boers and Inkatha Freedom Party is working hand-in-hand and collaborating with the AWB and this Inkatha, amaZulu is so much co-operative with the AWB and there is not any other tribe here in South Africa that has a King as Goodwil is a King. They are comfortable with him and Inkatha is the head of kwaZulu Natal and the AWB is totally opposed to communists.

MR NEL: When was the first time that he started speaking to you about Mr Phosa?

MR GWAMANDA: The very first time he spoke to me, I may not have a clear recollection of the date and I'm not in a position to even state the day, as to which day it was but talking about Matthew Phosa, that started or he started talking about him during the Codesa days. He started about Matthew Phosa around that time, that he has to be killed because in the low-veld he's so much of great disturbance to the Boers.

MR NEL: This meeting you had, was it only with Sergeant Venter or was it also Lieutenant Venter?

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you for that question. With regards to this plan of assassinating Matthew Phosa we were there, the four of us and Sergeant Venter was there and Lieutenant Venter and Lieutenant Joubert was in Town Prison. He was transferred to Medium to Open Camp where he is stationed.

Colonel Roets was in a farm, Maximum. There were offices there where some Brigadiers were stationed, so he was there. We will meet Roets during the training and at Aubrey's place when we would have entertainments or braais.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what were those other names you mentioned, Mr Gwamanda? You mentioned Joubert, and what was the other name, Colonel Roets?

MR GWAMANDA: Sergeant Venter was in charge of the sports and the recreational services, in fact activities and I was the chairman of that department, recreational activities. Lieutenant Venter was an assistant of the Town Prison authority or head. Lieutenant Joubert was across at the farm, that's where he was stationed. He was at first in Town Prison but then he was transferred to Open Camp at the farm.

When you go towards the Maximum it was referred, that place was referred to as "the farm". That's where he was. Colonel Roets was working in the commanding office. The structure of this office was structured in a way that there was an area manager. He was working there, he was stationed there, although I don't know what his position was.

Warrant Officer Geldenhuys was working at the Town Prison ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, what was that last name, Warrant Officer who?

MR GWAMANDA: Geldenhuys.

CHAIRPERSON: Geldenhuys?

MR GWAMANDA: Geldenhuys. That one was working at Town Prison but his portfolio was in "menasie" and in the kitchen. There would be a head of the kitchen, the one who will run the catering in the kitchen. There would be - there was a kitchen, a canteen and we referred to it as menasie where the food for the members was prepared. It was a kitchen for the members but it was referred to as menasie.

It was outside Town Prison where we would have our parties and when we have visitors from Pretoria such as inspectors coming to inspect the prison, that's where they will be catered for and that's where they will convene. That is the place we referred to as "menasie".

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, thank you for that answer. The original question was, at the first meeting when you were introduced to the AWB members, was it only Sergeant Venter or Sergeant Venter and Lieutenant Venter?

MR GWAMANDA: When I said I was introduced to AWB, I was connected or I was introduced to Sergeant Venter but to be introduced to the rest of these other members that happened at Aubrey's farm when we had our braais. I even showed some where we used to conduct our braais and enjoy ourselves.

When we gathered at that place during entertainments they would point at us and say: "These are our boys". That's how and when I was introduced officially to the AWB at large. I did not know all of them because it was a big group of AWB members.

MR NEL: Had you at this stage also been introduced to Colonel Roets as a member of the AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: That's a wonderful question. Colonel Roets used to come to Town Prison. I don't want to waste Mr Chairman's time, I'm quite aware of his restrictions inasfar as time is concerned.

Roets would come and frequent the prison and spend time at the office of Lieutenant Venter and we would be called in and out. We will always be in and out of this office. You see the offices were situated outside the prison, not inside. They were outside the prison premises. We would walk there in and out as their boys and we would meet them.

They would play around with us you know, like little "apies" and we would be like: "thank you, baas, thank you baas" and those things. But then we enjoyed ourselves by knowing that they knew us very well and we belonged and we could associate with them. It was wonderful to refer to them as "baas" and they would look at us as their boys, little boys.

You see I would like to dwell on this but I'm quite aware of Mr Chairman's time constraints.

MR NEL: Yes, thank you. Mr Gwamanda, the question was, when and how did you meet Colonel Roets as a member of the AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: But I thought I explained this, that as far as time is concerned, you see all those details I don't have any recollection of.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think Mr Gwamanda, you've told us how you got to meet and to know Colonel Roets and the others you mentioned, I think the thrust of Mr Nel's question is, when did you know or how did you know that he was AWB as opposed to a senior officer in the prison? Were you introduced to him as being an AWB member as opposed to a prison authority because not all prison authorities are AWB members.

MR GWAMANDA: That's very true, Judge. You see as I'm telling you here, there are some who are wise who were members of AWB. I will not make that mistake to point at somebody and say he was an AWB member. There are many Colonels, like Stanwyk(?), quite a number of them and the commanders as well. I even know their houses but as for these ones I know even from their language, the language they use and the uniforms they always wore, like khaki, I knew very well that those were AWB members and I knew.

I will never pick on them and say they were AWB members. I know very well that they were AWB members and there were some many other whites who were working at the prison and I will never say they were AWB members but as for these ones ...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: But Mr Gwamanda, when did you realise that Mr Roets is a member of the AWB?

MR LAX: And maybe just to add, what made you realise that he was an AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: That I picked and understood during the time of training because he uttered that himself. They would utter that themselves and tell us that they were the members and they would ask us as to whether we liked AWB and they would always say all those wonderful things about AWB, that AWB never clash or differ with the Zulu structure and practices. So they would utter that themselves and say it to the effect that they are AWB members.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, my instructions are that Mr Roets, today Mr, he's left the Correctional Services, Colonel Roets then, was in fact Chairman of the Barberton Branch of the Nationalist Party. Can you comment on that?

MR GWAMANDA: I wouldn't know that he has left. As to whether he was a commander or what, I don't have any knowledge of that but what I know is that he was somewhere up there in the top management in the prison. I knew he was superior in the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Nel's putting to you, you've said that you believed or understood or learnt that Colonel Roets was AWB, now Mr Nel is putting to you that according to his instructions at that time, Colonel Roets was the Branch Chairman of the Nationalist Party and the Nationalist Party is not the same as the AWB, they're different political organisations. That's what he's putting to you. What Mr Nel is putting to you is that he was in the National Party.

MR GWAMANDA: I am talking about what I know but what he has just said, I bear no knowledge of that but I'm telling you about what I know and fully saw because what led to our training, we were being trained by the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, I think on that you've said that your instructions were that he was the Chairman of the Barberton Branch of the Nationalist Party but does that necessarily exclude the possibility of a person belonging to two political organisations at the same time?

MR NEL: No, it obviously does not, Mr Chairman. I accept your point of view.

Mr Gwamanda, you cannot however dispute that Mr Roets was the Chairman of the Nationalist Party at the time in Barberton?

MR GWAMANDA: I will not agree to that because I don't know that much. I know this much that he was an AWB. National Party never took part, never appeared or featured in any way but the AWB.

MR NEL: You did earlier state, and I assume from what you have said that you had a good ...[indistinct] with Lieutenant Venter, Sergeant Venter, Colonel Roets and Lieutenant Joubert, because of the jokes that they made and you had a wonderful time, correct?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: Do you remember the occasion where you were convicted by Lieutenant Venter for possession of dagga?

MR GWAMANDA: Convicted by?

MR NEL: Lieutenant Venter.

MR GWAMANDA: I was never convicted by that person. This is how we would carry dagga as peanuts in our bags and the prisoners who are listening, they will know very well I am telling the truth. I was never caught with dagga. Sergeant Venter took the dagga I had one time. We were in cell number 4, no, number 6. We were watching TV in a certain hall and one person had this dagga and I went to Venter and I told him that: "You'll never arrest a prisoner for dagga", and he laughed about that. He took that dagga and put it in a drain outside and it was flushed with water. It was flushed in water and I was never convicted for that.

MR NEL: I have a form with me which is a charge sheet, Mr Gwamanda, dated the 20th of February 1992 and the presiding officer was Lieutenant D Venter. And during those proceedings according to this official form, you pleaded guilty in front of Lieutenant Venter to possession of dagga and in fact you were sentenced to 25 days in solitary confinement together with the regular shortage of meals. Do you deny this?

MR GWAMANDA: Venter must just admit and say that he wrote that form so that he can present it to the Commission and defend himself. That dagga was flushed in water and that was the end of the story. What you are talking about now I have no knowledge of, this is just a way of escaping for him. I would love or I would appreciate that you should ask me about this "skietbaan".

Outside, far away from Barberton Prison, why was I found there or why was I taken there? Maybe that's the question I will suggest for you to ask me.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, the question I'm asking you is, do you deny that Mr Venter was the presiding officer and convicted you for possession of dagga on the 20th of February 1992 and also sentenced you for that offence and do you with that denial, if you so do, say that the form is a fabrication by Mr Venter?

MR GWAMANDA: This is an absolute fabrication.

MR NEL: And the prosecutor who was involved in that trial, I have difficulty in pronouncing his name, it looks like Kansas, are you then saying that he also fraudulently filled in this form as being the prosecutor in this matter?

MR GWAMANDA: Let me give you this scenario. I was sentenced in Open Camp and working outside the prison where I worked five days without being given any food during that time when I was working. I was kept there at the Open Camp and I would work without any food. When I assaulted that person it was because he was harassing sexually a small boy.

But as for what you are saying about Venter, I don't see any correlation between that and my application for amnesty. I don't see any reason why you should insist about this form and questions. That line of questioning I don't think I agree with. There is not correlation between what you are saying and what I'm asking for amnesty for.

Even at the Maximum I ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Mr Gwamanda, sorry to interrupt you. The reason why Mr Nel's putting this to you is pretty clear. You said you were on good terms with Lieutenant Venter, he's saying to you you weren't on good terms with the man because he convicted you. That's really why he's putting it to you. We can beat around the bush for hours about this but do you deny that form, is that what your evidence is? Do you say that didn't happen?

MR GWAMANDA: I dispute that, I was never sentenced or convicted in Town Prison. There was never a time when I was convicted. This I'm hearing for the first time. The dagga, anything about the dagga ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, just to clarify, you were never convicted you say of dagga, never mind which part of the prison, it was in 1992, February 1992.

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was never convicted in Town Prison for dagga.

MR NEL: Do you remember any of the other offences that you were convicted of whilst being in Barberton?

MR GWAMANDA: Let me recall. I made so much noise in Maximum where they keep dangerous inmates. I shouted for another guy and said: "Please give me a cigarette" and I was told that I should go aside and I will not be fed three times. In other words I will miss three meals and indeed I missed three meals. In other words I did not eat for the whole day, just for saying: "Please give me a cigarette".

After that I never encountered any problems. I went to Medium B and I have no knowledge of any conviction there. It was at Open Camp when I had another offence. I was not even aware that I had committed an offence. I was with the Captain, a white Captain by the name of Stolz, Stols or Stolz, somewhere there, a white guy, I said: "Captain yes, I've committed an offence and I know and he said: "Because you agree or you do accept this, you will not eat, you will have to be drinking water." I don't remember if it was for five days. I would drink water, samp water.

And again I committed an offence at work and he said: "You see my boy, you are stubborn, I will not give you food so that you stop these offences". Those are tiny offences that I committed and I have a clear recollection of. That's when I said to him: "You have cost me to starve so much, please transfer me from here". And indeed he transferred me to Town Prison. These are the offences I have clear recollection of.

One time Tabete had an argument with a certain boy - often times or not at prison I would be regarded as a very straight man or a moral man as it is the case even here at Westville because I'm a chairman of peace and I'm regarded as a very disciplined inmate.

This is the book that will display all what I'm talking about and it shows so much of me as a very disciplined inmate. So I will not dispute what I know. I think Venter is highly mistaken in what he has just made mention of.

MR NEL: The petty offence you referred to, was that the 30th of October 1990 when you were sentenced to 15 days solitary confinement for assault, when you kicked a man in his face whilst he was lying on the floor, do you recall that Mr Gwamanda?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I agree with that, that happened at Open Camp. They called it Medium A because there was another one, Medium B and then it will be Maximum in Prison Farm and you'll find another one in Town Prison. In other words, in Barberton you will find four

prisons.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, on the 20th of February 1991 you will also, do you recall being convicted and sentenced to 20 days solitary confinement for theft of two sheets?

MR GWAMANDA: Theft of two sheets, sheets as in paper?

CHAIRPERSON: The two sheets, is that bedding sheets?

MR NEL: Bedding sheets, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR GWAMANDA: I thought I had already explained that Captain made that explicitly clear, that I had already committed an offence because of that cigarette issue and I was sentenced at Open Camp. He said I'm so stubborn and so silly and I said to him: "I'm an orphan, I have nobody who cares for me outside the prison". I don't dispute that, I agree.

MR NEL: What I'm trying to say, Mr Gwamanda, that we know of your record outside of prison but it seems like inside of prison you also are very au fait with criminal activities.

MR GWAMANDA: But I have said that so clearly, that I was arrested for criminal acts. Why was I arrested? I was arrested for criminal acts. Have you ever heard me say those were not criminal acts? Yes, those were criminal acts because I suffered so much and I'm explaining and I've even explained, furnished you with so much explanation as to why I did those acts and that's different from what you are reading for me now. Those are the records I agree with but what you've read for me it's strange.

I don't dispute what I know. Whenever I dispute something it is because of a genuine reason, that I don't know it. I will go to the Judge and plead and do say that I have done this and qualify why I did what I would have done, I will not dispute. This is why you find I have those offences going around the clock because I would at the same time concede to that and say I have committed and offence and agree.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, if we may move on. What exactly were your instructions with regards to your part in the assassination of Mr Phosa?

MR GWAMANDA: My involvement was that I would get instructions from my superiors and they wanted to see me shooting, shooting the person, not the targets as it would be the case at the shooting range. So that would have been the part.

MR NEL: I want to elaborate a little bit more if you may, Mr Gwamanda. What exactly were your instructions as to how was the assassination of Mr Phosa going to take place.

MR GWAMANDA: I would have waited for the instructions. There is not a time where, or there was never a time where I gave an instruction but I would receive instructions and be told as to what is next and what will be done from all these superiors. I would not give any instructions or ask anything, like for instance wanting to go to be trained at the shooting range but Elijah came to me and pleaded with me that I should work hand-in-hand with them and it came as a shock to me when I discovered that these were not moral police. All this time I kept thinking that they were ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, the question was, how was the assassination to take place? I think, am I correct in saying that you answer is that you weren't given any specific plan as to how the assassination was to take place but you expected that you were called upon to shoot, you didn't know where exactly, where you'd be positioned or did you and if you did what were the plans if any, relating to the actual assassination?

MR GWAMANDA: What I had knowledge about, although I'm not too sure, I think Matthew Phosa was going to deliver a speech in Legazi. There would have been a gathering of the community and we were only told that we should go there. I was awaiting instructions that this is where Matthew Phosa will be and this is where the action will take place. You see if you give an instruction you will furnish each and every detail that is necessary for the or to execute the action. So I would have waited for them and I was going to wait for further instructions so I could execute the instruction. And there is something that I left behind. Please do remember that Legazi place, I know it very well and I was a prisoner. Maybe your next question will be, how do I know Legazi. I know Godeni, it's one part of Legazi. I know Malelani is one part of Mpumalanga. I know Godeni. I know Legazi. I will tell you that this is Legazi, this is Legwatini. Those areas are in Mpumalanga, I know them very well. But then again I will not count all these places because those were important places and the superior knew them very well and I will hear them say and talk otherwise in the farms.

There was another farmer who had livestock and they used to like going to see him but all I'm trying to explain is that we were taken to Nelspruit and the mission was to hit or to assassinate Matthew Phosa but then all that was aborted and we had to go back to Barberton.

MR NEL: Are you saying that you're travelling towards Nelspruit, in fact to the Post Office with a car full of ammunition and weapons, the mission is going to be that you are going to assassinate Mr Phosa and you have received no instructions to that effect?

MR GWAMANDA: That's very true. We were using the Monza which belonged to the Town Prison. The Town Prison ...[end to tape] was private and belonged to Lieutenant Venter but that was one other car. The Monza had or bore the state's registration so that when we meet or come across other state vehicles no questions should be raised to them because we will be so clear that we are using a state car and therefore we are up to a state mission.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, the question once again. When you arrived at Nelspruit you had no planning in the planned assassination of Mr Phosa?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Nel, his answer was "yes".

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's quite clear, he said that they didn't have any specific plans other than that he knew that he was going to go and shoot Mr Phosa and most likely at Legazi where he was to attend a public meeting.

MR NEL: And according to your statement, Mr Gwamanda, you say that in Nelspruit - I refer you to paragraph 10, you met Colonel Roets, Lieutenant Joubert, Lieutenant Venter, you parked the cars near the Post Office and there many AWB members driving 4X4 vans and wearing AWB uniforms, is that correct?

MR GWAMANDA: Not to say there were so many. What I was referring to was that there were at least more than eight, not - you are exaggerating when you're saying there were so many you know, numerous, no it was not like that. There were just a bit over eight or nine and they were parked there. You could tell from their stomach that these are men amongst men.

MR NEL: Mr Gwmanda, I'm actually referring to your statement when you said many. On this particular day when you parked the cars near the Post Office, was during the day or at night?

MR GWAMANDA: It was during the day because it was mid-morning, around half, because we left at half past seven for eight because we had just had breakfast in prison. You see the prison opens at six, the prison master opens at six then we will have breakfast then we took off around eight, therefore we would have arrived in Nelspruit in the mid-morning.

MR NEL: I just found it a bit strange, find it a bit strange that a gathering of AWB members in full uniform in broad daylight planning an assassination on Mr Phosa, don't you think that's a bit farfetched, Mr Gwamanda?

MR GWAMANDA: Listen very carefully, I will give an explanation to you. You see they wore these shorts, the khaki shorts. The AWB uniform is khaki and those were the clothing they had on, khaki shorts and khaki shirts ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, did they have any insignia on the arms or shoulders, like a military uniform, police uniform or was it just plain khaki?

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you very much. I'm trying to explain that it was just a plain khaki shirt and khaki shorts. What made me to say it's a uniform is because they would have khaki, the AWB is renowned by having those khaki uniforms, so this is why I take it that was khaki uniform for AWB.

MR NEL: What I'm trying to establish Mr Gwamanda, is if anybody would want to assassinate any person, one would find it strange that there's a gathering of people with 4X4's and AWB members in uniform concentrating on this plan, wouldn't one expect that a plan like this would have been executed clandestinely perhaps? This sounds a bit far fetched don't you agree with me?

MR GWAMANDA: The plan was indeed secret and the people behind this assassination plan were indeed sitting in a car, in the state vehicle and people talking around would not necessarily show or you wouldn't know what they are talking about. Therefore they held short discussions with the other AWB members and they returned to the car. That was not the beginning of the assassination plot but it was a continuation, they were still discussing how they were going to carry it out, using us as their boys.

MR NEL: You were not in that vehicle listening to the discussion were you?

MR GWAMANDA: I was in the car and they were discussing outside the car.

MR NEL: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Gwamanda, you say that these discussions were in secret, people were sitting in a state vehicle, the question is, were you with these people discussing the execution of this plan?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Nel, there's a bit of a misunderstanding. They were in the state vehicle, the four prisoners had been taken there in the state vehicle according to his evidence, the person who was driving the vehicle got out the vehicle, went and spoke to somebody else. Those are the discussions he's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: I think those other people were at the 4X4s.

MR LAX: That's the gist of his evidence so far.

MR NEL: You did not know or you do no know what discussions took place, wherever it took place, because you were in the vehicle?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I do not know.

MR NEL: Before all these discussions, before the actual day of the execution of this plan, you say that you were fully trained in the use of R1 rifle, 9mm pistol, AK47, 765 revolver etc?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct, as well as hand-grenades.

MR NEL: As well as hand-grenades?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And did this take place on the shooting range?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, it did.

MR NEL: You have a record of using firearms during the commission of various offences.

MR GWAMANDA: What are you referring to? I would like to explain. With regards to that record, the case went on appeal because the gun did not belong to me. That is with reference to the record. I was wrongly convicted and I did win the case on appeal. At that time I was not trained or thoroughly trained, not before I went to the prison and was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, what is the point of this cross-examination? The fact that he may have used firearms in an offence doesn't preclude later training does it?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, where I'm heading is that I would find it very strange that a person with his type of record would be left alone and trained by members of the Correctional Services with an AK, who knows what he could do with it whilst doing that training. That was the line of thought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GWAMANDA: Is there any criminal or inmate who has a right to be trained or to be trained in the handling of firearms regardless of whether they have a record or not? Is there any prisoner indeed who has a right to be trained?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this whole thing is really a question of argument really. The answer is also one that can be used in argument.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, in conclusion, my instructions are that the persons mentioned by you, Colonel Roets, Lieutenant Venter, Sergeant Venter and Joubert deny the allegations that they were ever involved in the plot or a plot, planning this assassination of Mr Phosa with you, at any stage.

MR GWAMANDA: They are telling blue lies. How did I ever get to "skietbaan" in the first place. Secondly, what grudge would I have against them? Why would I single out Matthew Phosa? This matter has been going on every since the Goldstone Commission. It's been investigated and I'd been asked to identify the different camps. How would I get there if I was just incarcerated in the Barberton Prison, how would I know about all of these things?

MR NEL: And they will further also deny that they ever took part in training you in the use of various firearms as stated by yourself.

MR GWAMANDA: They must be taking you for a ride, Sir, because they shouldn't deny what they know. They should maybe explain to you about Gwamanda and Elijah Mhlongo and explain what all these criminals and prisoners were doing at "skietbaan". We were trained and we would practice at the shooting range. My ear was damaged and I've had an operation on it because of that target practice.

If you do not believe me I would be prepared to demonstrate from a distance of 300 metres. I can demonstrate and then you can decide for yourself where I learnt or where I got this training ...[intervention]

MR NEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nel. Mr Mukadam?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MUKADAM: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, you testified that you were in prison the period up to November '93, I'm sorry, March '93.

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR MUKADAM: And for the current offence you were arrested again in December '93, were you released on bail pending your trial or were you in custody when you were arrested?

MR GWAMANDA: I was not released on bail because I heard a rumour that I was supposed to be murdered or killed. I was threatened with death on several occasions and also terrorised.

MR MUKADAM: By whom were these threats made?

MR GWAMANDA: Stanley Mabanga from the Murder and Robbery Unit. Even in the photographs that were taken at CR Swart, I was injured, I was assaulted because they assaulted me, Mabanga and others. He was saying I should stop what I was doing.

Even when the King was here in Durban he booked me out and he told me that I should stop reporting or giving information to the Goldstone Commission. And my wife could not even get in contact with me. I reported all of these matters to the Court but my evidence was not accepted. There is a lot that I have suffered through but I will not mention it here because it is contained in the records.

MR MUKADAM: So you were in prison in December '93 and then you were sentenced on the 29th of November 1994 and you are still in prison, is that correct?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR MUKADAM: Now whilst you were in - what is important for us to understand is that whilst you were in prison on Barberton, during that period you were allowed out of the prison as you say by the warders for training and a plot to assassinate Mr Phosa. Now were you ever left or taken out of prison at any other time?

MR GWAMANDA: Besides the training I did or I was allowed out of the prison. Sometimes we would go out to the township and drink beer and see our girlfriends, sometimes go to the butchery, sometimes I would go to the stadiums in Barberton to watch soccer.

There are businessmen in Barberton whom I know from the township. We would be in private clothing, like tracksuits. We would behave like free men and I was sleeping with my girlfriend who even got pregnant at that time.

All my relatives and neighbours in the township know that I had this girlfriend, Sophie.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know of any further plots to assassinate Mr Phosa?

MR GWAMANDA: I thank you for that question. There were many incidents where this matter was plotted. I did not even know that he was an attorney. When I wrote this statement he was not even a Premier yet. The only time I saw his face was just recently when he started appearing on TV.

There were many plots that were made to assassinate him and other ANC leaders. There were other operations in areas like Bethal, which were planned and executed. I think there was a person from Mozambique who came to discuss with the Boers and they would discuss or plot against ANC leaders. Therefore I know that they used to have serious discussions and many discussions around plotting such murders against ANC leaders.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know the name of that person from Mozambique?

MR GWAMANDA: Because we were incarcerated we did not have a lot of contact or opportunities. Sometimes we would be asked to go and cut down wood, what they would call "second bos" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The questions was, did you know the name of the man from Mozambique?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I did not.

MR MUKADAM: Now Mr Gwamanda, ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, have you ever been to visit Mr Phosa at his house at any stage?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I've never been to his house, I do not know it. It was never shown to me but sometimes we would go to Legazi and look around the area and maybe somewhere around Malelane These are the areas that I know but his house, that is Matthew's house, has never been shown to me. I know a few areas around and we would sometimes go to those areas but I do not know the house.

MR MUKADAM: The reason I ask that, Mr Gwamanda, is that my instructions are that you in fact arranged to see Mr Phosa as Premier because you had information to give to him regarding various different police persons that were involved in smuggling counterfeit money and mandrax tablets, amongst other things.

MR GWAMANDA: I have made many attempts to try and see Matthew Phosa. That is something I cannot discuss here at the Truth Commission, it is something that I have to discuss with Mr Phosa. I have made attempts to see him and I am still planning to see him and Mr Nklantla, Mr Joe Nklantla, something that I cannot discuss here because I have a lot information to give to the Intelligence.

MR MUKADAM: Now Mr Gwamanda, I ask these questions because soon after your visit to Mr Phosa which on my instruction was around July and August of 1994, there was an attempt made on his life on the 29th of September 1994 at the Sekunda Plaza.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that date, Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: On the 29th of September 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: At the?

MR MUKADAM: Sekunda Plaza.

MR LAX: Sorry is that a toll plaza?

MR MUKADAM: No, it's a shopping plaza.

MR LAX: Shopping centre.

MR GWAMANDA: I will try to explain it like this. In 1994 I was in prison, therefore there is no role that I played there. There is nothing that I can explain with regards to that because I was already in prison.

The knowledge that I have about the third force is something that I cannot divulge to the Truth Commission because it does not pertain to my amnesty application. It is information that I should present to the Intelligence and the Minister will then decide if prosecutions should follow.

All I am here for is to explain about my role in the incidents that took place here. But with regards to that which you are referring to, I was already in prison and with regards to the third force activities, I cannot divulge that information here. It is something I should present to Joe Nklantla of the Intelligence and it should go procedurally in that manner.

I tried to communicate to Sydney Mufumadi and told him that there was some information that I would like to discuss with him and that information does not pertain to these proceedings here.

I have also written to the President and he did respond to me and that is the letter that he wrote back to me. He responds to your letters. I have written another letter laying a complaint about something that I cannot discuss here. That is something that I will discuss with the ANC directly.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwmanda, what we're trying to establish is that the possibility of you being released from prison if you perhaps have been working with a third force element, I am suggesting to you that you were involved by your own admission in one attempt to try and assassinate Mr Phosa.

My instructions are that you indeed visited him at his home and soon after there was another attempt on his life. And I'm suggesting to you that it was part of your mission and I would like a full disclosure if you were involved in any of these things because subsequent to that, that mission had failed because there were just too many, this is the Sekunda attempt, that mission had failed because there were just too many people around.

There was a further attempt, Mr Gwamanda, on the 2nd of February 1995 at the Kriel Colliery. That attempt was also thwarted. Mr Gwamanda, there was a further attempt on the 8th of April 1995 at Watervalboven. Were you involved in any of these attempts?

MR GWAMANDA: I was not involved in all those other attempts. I have been in Westville and I've always been in prison. I was never released from the Westville Prison. I am in Medium A and I went there because of my involvement in the Goldstone Commission.

With regards to all those other attempts I was not involved because I've always been at Westville Prison. I am still under the witness protection programme. I am guarded by the police because I am under threat. I have never ever been released from Westville Prison. I am under obligation and rules of the prison all the time.

It was at Barberton when I used to be released. But with regards to the third force, I have knowledge of its activities in Mpumalanga but I cannot divulge that information. I do not see any reason why I should divulge that information here. But I have never been released from Westville Prison, never ever.

MR LAX: Just to clarify something because there was a very long series of statements put to you and I'm not sure that you ever answered what I would regard as the most important one directly. Mr Mukadam suggested to you that you met with Mr Matthew Phosa in July/August 1994, did you actually meet with him in July/August 1994 as he has suggested?

MR GWAMANDA: I've never met Matthew Phosa as I've just explained. I've never met him.

MR MUKADAM: My instructions are also that after that meeting you had gone to an informal settlement, you were taken to that informal settlement by Mr Phosa's driver and you were told that the information that you had given him would be attended to, what do you say to that?

MR GWAMANDA: I have never met Mr Phosa's driver. I am also sure that he has never met me. And I don't know anything about that informal settlement area. I was in prison in 1994 and I was being hidden in the prison and I've never had any discussions with Mr Phosa. He should know this. I have been in prison all along.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, that is what we're trying to establish, whether in fact you were part of a group that would be released from prison to perhaps be involved in perpetrating some act or the other.

MR GWAMANDA: I do admit that I was part of a group of prisoners who were released to go and shoot outside or practice and I was also trained to fight against the ANC, but the matter regarding Matthew Phosa was the one incident that I have explained before.

There has never been any other attempt that I've been involved in. I only started seeing Matthew Phosa's face on the TV. I have never had a discussion with him. I do wish to meet his but I have never had discussions with him.

I do admit that I was trained in prison and I do admit that I was one of those prisoners who were part of the group that attempted to assassinate Matthew Phosa but the mission was aborted. I don't think I would deny if I had indeed been involved in other attempts or hide my involvement. I do not have any reason to do so. I could have applied for amnesty in that regard. There is nothing else whatsoever except for what I've explained here with regards to Matthew Phosa. ...[end of tape] - [side A of tape 5 is blank]

MR MUKADAM: ...[inaudible] you were let out of that prison purely for training and to go near the butcher where you say you go to and on that situation when you went to Nelspruit with the warders?

MR GWAMANDA: As I've explained before, I was told that I should not talk of irrelevant points, I should only concentrate on those points that are relevant to the application.

I got to know of those places when we travelled with these white bosses, the Boers, I would enquire from them what these areas were because they would travel along, around these areas.

MR GWAMANDA: Mr Gwamanda, my instructions are further that on the following day a certain Captain Frank Dutton arrived at Nelspruit and arrested you at that informal settlement, is that true?

MR GWAMANDA: That is a mistake. I first knew Colonel Dutton at the ITU in Isipingo when I went to make my statement to the Goldstone Commission. I went to them and told them about the information that I had. When they tried to investigate about the matters that I was divulging, Gyane and them started making a lot of noise, they said the ITU was an ANC mouthpiece and they tried to stop that investigation.

Colonel Dutton never arrested me, he knows that. He knows that I went to him and I was committed to the process. I went to my house to fetch those guns. When we were asked to return guns I went with them to my home and I retrieved that AK47 from my home. I was with the ITU, I took them to all these places, such that Mr Hlengwa came to prison and asked me not to work with the ITU and they promised me rewards. I reported the matter to the prison authorities and I took Mr Hlengwa to the prison authorities and the prison authorities as aware of this. He was banned from visiting me.

What happened thereafter was that I was attacked in my cell and I was stabbed. Colonel Dutton is one of the first people to whom I gave information. He even said that he was going to go looking for those dockets. He came back to me and told me that he couldn't find those dockets and I couldn't even give my information to the independent monitors in KZN.

I do not know how many departments I have been to, even Judge MacNally I have written to and I have given information to all these departments I've mentioned but Colonel Dutton never arrested me.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, do you know a person by the name of Jerry Lukele?

MR GWAMANDA: Pardon?

MR MUKADAM: Jerry Lukele?

CHAIRPERSON: Is the L-U-K-E-L-A?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I do not know him.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know a person by the name of Paulus Makgale?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I don't know him.

MR MUKADAM: Were you ever taken out of prison by the ITU to assist them?

MR GWAMANDA: The ITU would fetch me from prison and they would ask me questions and they would take me to all these places that I mentioned. They would ask me to go and identify all these places.

I went to Barberton with them and I identified these areas and they were convinced that I was telling the truth and they could see that they did allow those prison authorities to come into the army base. I returned and the ITU took me to Ndwedwe and we discovered that Mr Mfayela had come and picked up the AK47. Some of the information I cannot divulge because the matter is still with the ITU.

I signed some papers to say that, and because I had already submitted an application I was asked and I deposed to that letter, that the Truth Commission should collaborate with the police on this matter such that if ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, the question was whether the ITU ever took you out of prison and you've answered that by saying yes, they took you to places where you showed them, in Barberton and in Ndwedwe.

MR MUKADAM: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Did they take you out of prison at any stage from Westville?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, they did remove me from Westville.

MR MUKADAM: Did they ever take you out of prison from Barberton Prison?

MR GWAMANDA: The ITU never came to Barberton. I only met them when I was serving this present sentence. I met them during 1994 and even my files reflects this. When they came to fetch me it would reported in the prison, it is recorded. I have been to the Barberton Matubatuba Police Station as well as at the Chatsworth Police Station. I've been in a lot of areas and this information is all recorded in my file.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, when I had asked you earlier whether you were taken out of prison and I had indicated to you from any prison other than the incident of the training by the warders, you had initially said no and now you are telling us in fact you were taken out. Are you telling us everything?

MR GWAMANDA: I was referring to the attack or the attempt on Matthew Phosa. With regards to the ITU, the ITU refers specifically to what I'm talking about today. I had taken my statement to the ITU for information purposes. Such information has nothing to do with the Barberton issue.

I was just denying that I had been taken out of prison for a second or third attempt on Mr Phosa's life.

The ITU had come to fetch me about the information that I had given to them.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUKADAM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mukadam. Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'll be

very short on behalf of the victims.

Mr Gwamanda, you'll recall in the taxi owner incident, just to remind you, you mentioned the following people: Zwelaki Mbambo, Mdu Sithole, Ntini Ndokweni and Simibi Sishi and you said they were with you, do you remember that?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: What has happened to these people?

MR GWAMANDA: I gather that Simibi Sishi is deceased. With regards to Ndokweni, he made a statement to the ITU. I took the people from the ITU to identify Ndokweni. And Mdu has also been investigated as well. Zwelaki Mbambo is also known. He's out on parole. He has visited me and I told him that I had submitted an amnesty application and he did not have a problem with it.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm going to ask permission that a certain lady should stand up for the applicant to see her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, Mr Mpshe.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Gwamanda, I'm going to ask the lady sitting behind just to stand up. I want you to have a loot at her. Do you see that lady?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I see her.

ADV MPSHE: Do you know here?

ADV MPSHE: No, I don't.

ADV MPSHE: This lady ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say you don't know her, have you ever seen her before?

MR GWAMANDA: No, I have not.

ADV MPSHE: You will recall ....[intervention]

MR GWAMANDA: But I do recall that there was a certain lady with regards to Mr Gumede's incident but I could not see, identify her face.

ADV MPSHE: Just for clarity to your good self, that lady's name is Nosipho Gumede, the wife of the deceased, the alleged taxi owner. Just to clarify for you. Do you remember you testified on this incident to the effect that when you arrived on the scene you told Milton and others who were in the kombi that you were hurrying to Ngwelesane, to Ndusuma, do you remember that?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I do.

ADV MPSHE: Were you told by anybody that when you arrive there you must make mention of the name Ndusuma, the place called Ndusuma?

MR GWAMANDA: No, nobody had told me because Msimbi had already indicated that this was not the person we were looking for. I was just whiling away time because I did not wish for this person to be injured. I even asked the older boy to ask the younger one to be quiet because I did not want them to be injured. I was just waiting for that time when the person would arrive.

ADV MPSHE: To be more direct with you, there has been allegations to the effect that Nosipho, the lady you have just seen, comes from Ndusuma and the allegations are that she was colluding with you, what would you say to that? She knew about this incident.

MR GWAMANDA: That is not true, she did not know anything about it. I don't even know her. If I knew her I would have admitted that I do.

ADV MPSHE: Now you testified that your target was the taxi owner, the deceased, but you testified to the effect that Milton the brother to the deceased was shot on the leg as well as on the hand, do you remember that, or the arm? Milton is sitting right at the back there.

MR GWAMANDA: I hear for the first time just where exactly he was shot. He got off the car with somebody else and as he was knocking on the door and somebody was trying to open, this person saw that there was a lot of people and they closed the door and then Tini started shooting. If he remembers correctly he would know that I am speaking the truth.

ADV MPSHE: Would I be correct, Mr Gwamanda, if I put it to you that this young man, Milton, was shot by mistake?

MR GWAMANDA: The brother to the taxi owner?

ADV MPSHE: Yes.

MR GWAMANDA: It was Ntini Ndongweni's mistake because Milton was not the target. If he remembers correctly I was standing next to him, next to the wall and I turned around and that is the person who was driving the car but he was not our target, our target was the taxi owner because I did not even know the taxi owner and I did not even know the person who was shot.

ADV MPSHE: Finally, I'm asked by the victims in this matter, the Gumede family in the taxi incident, to put it to you or to inform you that the manner in which you've related this incident is exactly as it was and to tell you that you are telling the truth.

That is all, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

MR GWAMANDA: I appreciate that because what I've said here is the truth as I know it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe. Mr Mchunu, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCHUNU: Just two questions, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gwamanda, during cross-examination by Mr Falconer, he put it to you that what you were doing was for a reward, that is the planned assassination on Matthew Phosa. Were you doing it or were you going to do it for the purposes of getting that rewards or was it only for the purposes, or was it only to fulfil a mission which was already set up in that association which you had with the AWB?

MR GWAMANDA: I would have done it because of the instructions that we had received. Had I not, or had I opposed those instructions it would have been easy for them to kill me.

Even if I had shot Mr Phosa I would have still submitted an application for amnesty with regards to it. It is something I would not have concealed. I would have submitted that application for amnesty because I did not have a personal grudge against Mr Phosa. But because I had agreed and had started working with these people I had to and that is why I had to do that.

MR MCHUNU: I understand that you were still going to obtain instructions to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa, did you at the time when you were still approaching the area or the place where you were going to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa have any other instructions apart from those which you were still to obtain at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the thrust of the question was, while you were on your way to Nelspruit, did you have any other instructions other than that you were going there to shoot Mr Phosa, any detail?

Is that the thrust of your question, Mr Mchunu?

MR MCHUNU: Yes, that's correct.

MR GWAMANDA: As I explained before there was no further details on how I was supposed to carry out the mission. I was still awaiting instructions from their discussion as to how we were going to proceed.

At that time we had just received instructions that we were going to kill Matthew Phosa and after that we would receive something.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MCHUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mchunu. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Gwamanda, you told us about the R300 and the R400 which you were given by Mfayela. Did it in any way motivate you to participate in these activities he was instructing you to participate in?

MR GWAMANDA: It was supposed to motivate me to work with him or to work for him because then he would be helping me. I think it was his way of showing me that he appreciated what I did for him and he was trying to draw me closer to him.

MR SIBANYONI: What I want to establish is, if he didn't give you this money would you still have participated in these activities?

MR GWAMANDA: I wanted to divulge Mr Mfayela's activities. Whether he did give me money or not was not an issue. He even promised me R150 000,00 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I think the question, you've misunderstood the question. The question Mr Sibanyoni is asking you is if Mr Mfayela didn't give you that R300 twice, would you have still continued working for him?

MR GWAMANDA: I would have been working for him until the time came that I divulged that information because I always had that secret wish that he should indeed be prosecuted but I would have continued working with him.

MR SIBANYONI: Let me rephrase the question. Were you paid to take part in these incidents?

MR GWAMANDA: As I've explained before I was not paid specifically for these incidents, except for the amounts that I mentioned before and he would give you this money maybe for cigarettes, as pocket money. It's about R300,00 or R400,00. He gave me that money as pocket money just to buy myself a few minor things like cigarettes, cool drinks. He used to feed me and took car of me when I was at his house but he didn't give me anything else.

MR SIBANYONI: Also in the issue of Mr Matthew Phosa, I understood you to say even if you were never promised the reward you would still have continued to participate in that aborted plot to assassinate him.

MR GWAMANDA: I would not lie and say that I would not have continued. I would not have disobeyed the orders coming from these people because I was already involved with them. Whether they gave me money or not I would still have continued and carried out their instructions.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay. I heard you keep harping on the issues to say that for the offence for which you are serving imprisonment now you were arrested for your car. In other words, did I understand you correctly to say for this offence you were framed in order to influence you not to expose people you were working with at Ndwedwe?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct. I had already started to give information to the police about what was happening at Ndwedwe. I could ask for amnesty with regards to criminal activities I would have but I do not want to mix issues. I was arrested and convicted, I was framed for that offence because I had started telling on the people who had been involved in the crime.

MR SIBANYONI: But what do you specifically mean when you say: "I was arrested for my car", what does that mean?

MR GWAMANDA: I requested an ID parade in Court. There was no ID parade in Court. I was never given a warning statement, I was never given that opportunity. Normally I would have been given a chance to make a statement but I was not given a chance, I was just charged.

The prosecutor asked me if I had a car and he asked what type and I said a green Toyota Corolla and they said I was lying. They asked me where I had got it from and I said I bought it from Cele and they said I was lying. They said the car had been stolen and it was stolen from Mr Cele. It was originally a blue car. I was told, it was alleged that I had stolen that car from Mr Cele and repainted it.

I explained that the car is in Kranskop but they said I was lying. I was sentenced for 10 years for that.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Lax, do you have any questions to ask the applicant?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

Before I move on to a more general question I want you to look at page 18 of the papers. Well before you do, I can ask you the question without you looking at it, don't worry, Mr Gwamanda. Mr Gwamanda, are you listening?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I am listening.

MR LAX: Did I understand your evidence correctly that after you had stopped the first taxi at Gumede's place, that you kept the two people who were in the taxi, the driver and the other chap, in the kombi with you and you then drove into the premises. The one person wouldn't stop resisting, as you put it, he then left the kombi and shots were fired at him when he got to the door of the house, is that correct? That's what I understood your evidence to be, is that right?

MR GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Okay. I'll read to from page 18, paragraph 26 of your statement and your affidavit. You say

"We kept the driver and the conductor in the kombi and waited for the other taxi which was driven by the owner according to these two persons."

You then carry talking about waiting there for the 30 minutes and what happened and then the other vehicle arrived. In the way you've told it in this affidavit it's only after the shots are fired and the taxi owner falls out of the vehicle that you then, and I'll read:

"We instructed the lady to get out from the kombi, which she did. The driver and conductor of the other kombi were ordered to get out and shots were fired at them."

Now what the question I want to put to you is that there are two quite different versions of the same event here, one in your affidavit and one you've told us in your evidence today. Please can you explain that for me?

MR GWAMANDA: I did explain before that the paragraph is not correct, this was not properly written. I did say that. The information contained here is incorrect. I did mention before that I was going to explain it. Even the TRC Investigators knew about it. I explained to all of them about this paragraph, that it was written in a hurry therefore it was incorrectly written. Maybe there was a mistake when they translated from isiZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that it is a mistake because Mr Mpshe has confirmed that the Gumede family say what you have said here today to be exactly what happened.

MR GWAMANDA: I made this statement in isiZulu and the person who took the statement translated it to English.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we understand, we accept that this statement is wrong, either because it was taken in a hurry or else because it wasn't properly interpreted.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Gwamanda, I just wanted that explanation.

The second aspect I want to move onto is, and I'll start first with the issue of Mr Phosa and your training. What was your personal political motivation for undergoing that training and for participating in an assassination attempt on Mr Phosa?

MR GWAMANDA: I would not have gained anything by killing Mr Phosa. That is the reason why I have come here before this Committee. I realised that my agreeing to work with those people was a mistake and my killing Mr Phosa would not have helped me in any way.

MR LAX: Yes, you may realise that now but I'm saying at this time when you were doing it, what was your political motivation?

MR GWAMANDA: I would explain it in this manner. I was convicted for a criminal offence and that is what I knew to be the reason for my being incarcerated in prison. This happened unexpectedly and therefore I did not have any reasons and objectives.

The reason for being in prison in the first place was to serve my sentence and get it over with and return to my community, try to find a job. I had been involved in criminal activities because of the hardships that I'd experienced. I was earning as little as R22,00 a month and that is what propelled me into crime.

Therefore, when I was in prison I did not know anything about it but I was very happy when Mr Mandela was released from prison. It was a joyful moment in the prison when we were arrested. I did not have any aim or an objective of killing Mr Phosa, what happened happened unexpectedly.

MR LAX: Okay. And then if I can move to the offences that you committed when you were in Ndwedwe. What was your political objective in participating in those offences?

MR GWAMANDA: I cannot mention one political objective because I grew up in Greytown(?). I am well-known in the community and my family is known in the community. My house was burnt down and I could not flee the area because a lot of people had fled the area. I stayed because I wanted to find out more about what was happening in the area and that is how I have all this information I have today.

Of all the people that were attacked at Ndwedwe, none of them can actually identify Mfayela because this happened in secret. I still maintain up to this day that I was not a member of Inkatha, I was just forced into these activities.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mchunu, do you have any questions arising out questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MCHUNU: None, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MCHUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FALCONER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: I'm in the same boat, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr Gwamanda, that brings to your testimony to a close, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mchunu?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, on the question of argument, Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mchunu, is that the case for the applicant?

MR MCHUNU: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Mr Chairman, I won't be calling any witnesses, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Likewise that is the case for the members that I represent, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, neither will I be calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now over to you, Mr Mpshe.

MR MCHUNU: Mr Chairman, even before Mr Mpshe, I think the applicant wants to say something to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like a five minute adjournment or a short adjournment?

MR MCHUNU: If I may just approach him now.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MCHUNU: I'm indebted to you Chairperson and Members of the Commission. The applicant would like to have an opportunity to apologise to the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Would he like to do it from he is now?

MR MCHUNU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gwamanda?

MR GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to apologise to the victims. What I did was not done in malice and therefore I ask for their forgiveness.

MR MCHUNU: Is that all?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, that is all. I just ask for their forgiveness, I did not mean them harm.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Gwamanda. Thank you, Mr Mchunu. Mr Mpshe?

WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was going to, on the question of argument, Mr Chairman, I'm not calling any victims. They are in here, I've consulted with them, they are satisfied with the version. On the question of the argument, Mr Chairman, I was going to test the legal waters but it would seem they are too hot for me to touch. I was going to suggest that we reserve this matter for argument on Thursday so that we start with the next matter that is waiting, but it would seem my other friends do have a problem. The lawyer for the applicant is available for Thursday morning at 08H30 to argue. Mr Patrick has got some commitments. I don't know about the other gentlemen, if the Chair could find that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not possible to argue today while things are still hot?

ADV MPSHE: If the Chair and Members of the Committee will still start with the matter that is awaiting us, the Ndlovu matter, he is still here. We've arranged with the prison and staff.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think we can fit in both argument and start with that one because I see it's already five to four and the argument I should imagine with, I don't know how many sets of argument but probably up to five will take more than just a few minutes.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you. If they are ready to do that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what is the attitude of Mr Mukadam, Mr Nel, Mr Falconer and Mr Mchunu, with regard to argument.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, my argument in this regard will not really be in-depth or anything or the sort, purely with regard to my client's interest in this matter and what has come out. So it's purely a question of whether they will be an opposing the application or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, are you in a position to ...

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, yes, I am totally in the Chair's hands if you would like us to argue this afternoon I would just ask for a short adjournment however it might be that I will ask for an extended on and maybe not argue this afternoon, I'll just have to take instructions Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Mr Chairman, I'm ready to dispose of the matter this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be preferable, Mr Mpshe, if we could dispose of it, it's always easier. It's even easier for the legal representatives in a sense to give argument immediately afterwards than to have to go and prepare and come and argue later.

It's unfortunate about the other matter but I think we'd prefer to finish this one, at least with the argument, then we'll reserve our decision with the view of giving a decision as soon as possible but rather than having it part-heard and then the legal representatives having difficulty and not all being here.

ADV MPSHE: I agree, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we then just take a short adjournment? If you could please let us know as soon as you're ready to proceed, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I'm told that the legal representatives would prefer to argue the matter on Friday, is that correct?

MR MUKADAM: That's the majority's view.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. And that it would be at 08H30 Friday morning?

MR MUKADAM: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will then postpone this matter until 08H30. The reason why I came to do it in the court here was that I thought there would be other members of the family etc., who would want to know, who might have an interest in coming to hear but I see they're coming in now, so if you could just wait for a few seconds.

For those persons who have just entered the premises, we've been informed that the legal representatives require some more time, would prefer to have some more time to prepare their submissions that they're going to make to this panel and that it had been agreed between them and we as a panel do not have any problems with that, that the matter be argued on Friday morning ad 08H30 in the morning at this same venue. The matter is then accordingly postponed to Friday morning at 08H30. The date on Friday will be the 23rd of October 1998, at 08H30 in the morning. It will just be for the reception of submissions at that period. I should imagine that the decision in the matter will be reserved so that we can digest the learned argument that we will be receiving and we won't just give an ex tempore decision. So the matter is then postponed to Friday, 23rd October at 08H30 for argument. Thank you very much.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS