MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, this is a similar application by Mr Wasserman. Unfortunately you would have to refer to two bundles in order to find the complete part of his application, relevant to the present application.
That is the Zandile bundle 1 at page 112 to, well it runs on to page 125. Thank you Mr Chairman, I appreciate that. No, it is further than that, it starts at page 112 Mr Chairman and it runs on.
The second - oh, I am sorry, 135, I heard 125, sorry Mr Chairman my Attorney says 125, I misheard. I heard 135. Mr Chairman, the other bundle is the Bhila bundle, at page 28. Sorry page 44, it is the typed page 28. It has been a long day Mr Chairman, page 44 and following. The witness is ready to take the oath Mr Chairman
CHAIRPERSON: In English or Afrikaans?
MR VISSER: English.
LAWRIE WASSERMAN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Are you ready Mr Wasserman?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes.
MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you are applying for amnesty for the abduction, detention and the elimination of Mr Bhila and for all acts, omissions or offences associated with that incident, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You request the Amnesty Committee to also incorporate into your evidence also, the written submissions by the Foundation for Equality before the Law, the submission by Gen Johan van der Merwe to the TRC and the written statements by the Generals to which Mr Rosslee has already referred the Committee to, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: It is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: The same applies to some of the evidence, to the evidence which Mr Vlok and Mr Van der Merwe, Gen Van der Merwe presented to the Amnesty Committee in the COSATU House and Khotso House and Cry Freedom incidents, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Would you please Mr Wasserman, inform the, or fill in the Committee about your personal particulars?
MR WASSERMAN: I was born in Northern Rhodesia, later Zambia in October 1955. At the age of 12, I moved to the then Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe.
MR VISSER: To Bulawayo, not so?
MR WASSERMAN: To Bulawayo in Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe. I completed my schooling there in 1974. We were all politically conservative and supporters of the Rhodesian Front, the Ian Smith political party.
I grew up in a conservative environment.
MR VISSER: Your political background, you stated in the Zandile bundle at page 113, very briefly. Would you care to elaborate to the Committee on your ranks? Perhaps first of all I must ask you this, is it correct that you joined the BSA, the British South African Police, in Zimbabwe?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And you went through the ranks there until you reached the rank of Warrant Officer if I remember correctly?
MR WASSERMAN: The equivalent thereof.
MR VISSER: And thereafter you came to South Africa?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct.
MR VISSER: When was that?
MR WASSERMAN: In March 1981.
MR VISSER: March 1981. And did you then join the South African Police?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: With what rank?
MR WASSERMAN: Detective Sergeant.
MR VISSER: And you are still today employed, I am sorry, are you still today employed in the service of the South African Police Service?
MR WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I left officially on the 31st of May of 1998.
MR VISSER: 1998, this year? With what rank?
MR WASSERMAN: Detective Warrant Officer, Inspector.
MR VISSER: Inspector, Detective Warrant Officer, all right. What were your experiences after leaving school against this police background and starting with the time that you served in the SAP for those six years before you came to South Africa?
Can you just sketch to the Committee the background to give them an understanding of what you were exposed to?
MR WASSERMAN: I did basic training in the then Salisbury Police Depot. I started off Uniform Branch enquiries, based in the districts.
After a period of two years, I applied to the Criminal Investigation Department of the SAP. Shortly after that, there was a massive increase in war effort from the then ZANA and ZIPPER Forces of the Patriotic Front.
From then I was pretty well relieved of routine police duties, and went into counter-insurgency pretty well full time.
MR VISSER: Full time in counter-insurgency operations?
MR WASSERMAN: In counter-insurgency operations, that is right.
MR VISSER: All right, yes, continue.
MR WASSERMAN: I attained the rank of Detective Section Officer, which is the equivalent of the Warrant Officer rank.
MR VISSER: And during that period of police service in Rhodesia, what type of experiences did you have in a period where you suggested that you, or that you stated that you dealt with counter-insurgency operations?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I was involved in many armed contacts. I hit a good couple of landmines myself and my Unit, ran sources and agents within those two liberation movements that I mentioned, ZIPPER and ZANA.
MR VISSER: Did these experiences make any impression on your own mind?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, it made an impression Mr Chairman, obviously there was a lot of fighting, a lot of blood, a lot of killing, and one hardened somewhat.
MR VISSER: Yes. On the 6th of March 1981, you emigrated to South Africa, and you joined the South African Police with the rank of Sergeant, you have already told us?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: In 1982, in February, were you then transferred to the Security Branch in Durban until your retirement on the 31st of May 1998?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: At which state you were declared medically unfit, due to post traumatic stress syndrome, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman, yes.
MR VISSER: Are you, yourself, receiving treatment for your condition?
MR WASSERMAN: No.
MR VISSER: During your service in Durban, you served under Colonel, the late Colonel Andy Taylor as I understand it, for most of the time?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What Section was he the Head of?
MR WASSERMAN: He was Head of the Terrorist Section.
MR VISSER: And how many divisions were there in that Terrorist Section?
MR WASSERMAN: It was basically divided into two Sections.
MR VISSER: Two Sections?
MR WASSERMAN: At a later stage, yes.
MR VISSER: Which were they?
MR WASSERMAN: Terrorist Investigation and MK Terrorist Intelligence.
MR VISSER: Intelligence? So you had an Investigation side and an Intelligence side?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct.
MR VISSER: Is it my understanding that Colonel Taylor, Major Taylor at the time, was the Head of both of those legs of the Terrorist Section?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Who was the Head of the Investigation leg?
MR WASSERMAN: It was also Colonel Taylor.
MR VISSER: Also Colonel Taylor? Who was the Head of the other leg, the Intelligence leg?
MR WASSERMAN: Colonel Botha.
MR VISSER: Colonel Botha, who will also give evidence in the present proceedings?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Who was your Divisional Commander of the Security Branch during 1987?
MR WASSERMAN: 1987?
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN: Colonel Steyn.
MR VISSER: Yes, that would be one of the applicants, I am sorry, I think it is J.S. Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: J.A.
MR VISSER: J.A. J.A. Steyn. You sketched briefly through your Attorney the time when you filed your application for amnesty, your political background. Just before I come to that, perhaps we should go on with this, in your application form, that would be the Zandile bundle, at page 121 to page 124, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And do you confirm that those were the basic political, that was the basic political background against which you require the Amnesty Committee to look at your amnesty application?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Would you like to extend a little on that, go a bit further and tell the Committee of how your mindframe was after you had come to the Republic of South Africa and how your political views were forged.
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, after arriving in South Africa, I realised that the revolutionary onslaught was on at this side of the Limpopo.
It was very similar, or it was about to gain in similarities to that which I had experienced in Rhodesia.
I also came to realise that there was not that much difference between the ideologies of the three liberation movements including the South African one, and the ANC. On joining the South African Security Branch, I had reason to study the ideologies and the groupings relevant to the South African struggle and familiarise myself with it and particularly familiarise myself with the increase in Umkhonto weSizwe activities, military activities of that organisation and its recruiting increased of its military activities inside and outside South Africa and the increase of its underground activities.
I also studied many of the events which built up the terror campaign and familiarised myself with threats of a communist invasion, which was, which I anticipated would start happening inside South Africa.
MR VISSER: Did you find yourself in sympathy with those learnings, with the theories and did you take those seriously to heart, yourself?
MR WASSERMAN: I did indeed.
MR VISSER: Yes. Just continue. We are talking about matters which had an effect upon you. Yes, continue.
MR WASSERMAN: The amount of MK activities in Natal and the expose of MK's activities in Natal in the form of bomb attacks, assassinations on SAP members and personnel and people that were not sympathetic to the ANC, and members of the SAP had a profound effect on me.
Some colleagues were killed and injured and their homes destroyed, whilst they were performing duties. They were targeted as legitimate targets by the liberation forces and that effected me merely because they represented or was seen to be upholding what was the government of the day.
MR VISSER: Which was in fact so, not so?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Yes, continue.
MR WASSERMAN: Myself and my colleagues in the Durban Branch, we were also aware that we were targets ourselves and these factors did ensure that we had to do anything we could to contain and normalise the situation in this province.
MR VISSER: Did you visit scenes of maiming, scenes after explosions where people had been murdered, or injured yourself?
MR WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Give us some experiences which you had.
MR WASSERMAN: Well, I attended all the major bombs in Durban, in the Durban central area. I had gunfights myself in which there were killings and woundings.
I attended houses of members and councillors who had been bombed.
MR VISSER: What did such experiences have on you personally?
MR WASSERMAN: It made me determined to oppose these attackers and stop them.
MR VISSER: Yes. Please continue.
MR WASSERMAN: I realised that as policemen the major primary role is to protect the public from destruction, devastation and killing and the situation here was particularly difficult to do that.
Many people in this province discriminated against us because we were not always able to achieve and to keep things normal.
MR VISSER: What was the situation with investigating crime and taking people to court in regard to politically orientated violence?
MR WASSERMAN: If that was principally almost the first intention, however, if we succeeded and one could get prosecution through the court, that would be a great sense of accomplishment. However, the situation did get out of hand, and this became the exception rather than the rule Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What were the problems in taking matters to court if there were any?
MR WASSERMAN: The major problem was that due to the amount of intimidation, violent reaction witnesses and intimidation of the public, they would not assist and lack of witnesses was the principle problem.
MR VISSER: Yes. As far as you were concerned, would you agree with the proposition that has been made by many members of the Security Branch, that what you were expected to do was really to fight an undeclared war?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Did you consider the circumstances in and around the Durban area to be a war situation?
MR WASSERMAN: It definitely was Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What do you ascribed that to?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the amount of military activity which is now a matter of record I believe before this Commission, indicate in itself the amount of military activity conducted by the MK forces.
MR VISSER: Yes. Mr Wasserman, with leave of the Committee and in order not to fall into repetition, we will not go into the detail of it now, but we will deal with it when Mr Botha gives his evidence, you know what his evidence is going to be, it has been discussed with you.
Can you now say that you agree with his references to the violence which took place within this area during the period that you were here?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Is that a legitimate question Mr Visser, I mean he doesn't know yet what will be said? There may be an intention, but it has not been said, but we get the drift of what you want to achieve.
MR VISSER: I did that with a tongue in my cheek.
MR MALAN: Then you may proceed.
MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, in fact I shouldn't even have put the question, because it just occurred to me just now that at the end of this witness' evidence, I am going to suggest that he does not give evidence about the other incidents and that we deal only with the Bhila incident.
He is going to be back any way, and he can then confirm it.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR VISSER: Perhaps that question can just be struck off the record. You were faced with a faceless enemy we heard the evidence of Mr Rosslee, about workers at day and combatants by night? I think the Committee has heard so often about the problems which the Security Branch members had, that I don't think it is necessary to drive these points into the ground and perhaps we can continue, going on to something else.
But the fact of the matter is this, is it not, that instead of just merely exercising pure police duties, you were called upon as members of the Security Branch, to uphold political party's views and policies?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And as such, became more and more embroiled in a political struggle, rather than taking people to court and investigating cases as normal policemen would be expected to do?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Was it your experience also that your colleagues as well as yourself, were called upon to do duty as we know it, border duty?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And that there were problems with adapting as Mr Rosslee put it when you returned to Civvy Street, to the country?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you, yourself, find a difficulty in that adaption?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I did.
MR VISSER: Through all of this, Mr Wasserman, and I am leading a little bit Mr Chairman, for the sake of going a bit quicker, is it true that you experienced certain pressures?
MR WASSERMAN: I did.
MR VISSER: Where did those pressures come from?
MR WASSERMAN: The pressures came from the government, from - we were expected to get hold of the problem and normalise the situation. We were placed under increasing pressure to get results and normalise the situation.
MR VISSER: Yes. There were also security systems in place, were there pressures exerted from that direction as well?
MR WASSERMAN: There were.
MR MALAN: Mr Visser, will you not allow us just to pursue these last two questions, three questions.
The response of prejudice firstly was that you experienced on yourself, pressures from government. In which way, who in government put pressure on you?
MR WASSERMAN: Perhaps that is not the correct words, but from within my Branch.
MR MALAN: Well, exactly, could we really stick to your really, not jargon or rhetoric, but your personal experience. Within the Branch there was pressure?
MR WASSERMAN: There was.
MR MALAN: Your senior officers expected performance from you?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Then secondly you responded also to the call upon, you were called upon as Security Branch to uphold a political party's views and policies. That was the question, and you confirmed it? Will you explain to me what do you have in mind there, which political party or were you simply expected to implement the law as expected by the government of the time, and do that under a command structure? Or is it really, are you referring to a political party?
MR WASSERMAN: When was that question put forward?
MR MALAN: Just before the one that I raised first. You were called upon as Security Branch to uphold a political party's views and policies, that was the question, and you confirmed it.
I am putting that question again. Was there ever expected of you to uphold a political party's views and policies?
MR WASSERMAN: No.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you, you may proceed Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Who was the government of the day in 1987 Mr Wasserman?
MR WASSERMAN: The National Party, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: The National Party, was that a political party within this country?
MR WASSERMAN: Indeed it was Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Did it have its own policies?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, it did.
MR VISSER: Including the policy of apartheid?
MR WASSERMAN: It did.
MR VISSER: Were you - was it expected from you to uphold the laws as promulgated by that government?
MR WASSERMAN: It was Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Let's go on to the assassination of Mr Bhila. Can you just tell the Committee exactly what you remember about this incident? Perhaps before I get there, perhaps before I get there, looking at your application form, at page 44 of the Bhila volume, bundle 1, no particulars had been given to you, by you in that application form, except that you referred to the incident under paragraph 9(a)(i) as being the elimination of ANC/MK member, Sipho Stanley Bika, which you rectified at page 45 as under the heading name of victim, Sipho Stanley Bhila.
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And what you said under (iv) was the nature and particulars of this incident are not immediately recalled to mind. I would do the necessary research, etc, in an attempt to provide a full and detailed statement which will be provided at a later stage.
What I want to ask you to tell the Committee is this, was there such an occasion where you had the occasion of making a full and detailed statement?
MR WASSERMAN: At the time of completing this particular one that we are talking about here, there was no time at my Attorneys.
MR VISSER: All right, if you want to deal with that first, when you signed this affidavit, your application form, did you have a one on one consultation with your Attorney at the time, in December 1996?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And at that time, how long before the cut off date was it that you consulted with your Attorney?
MR WASSERMAN: I believe it was two days.
MR VISSER: Two days? And Mr Wasserman, it is no secret, you apply for some 15 incidents? How many?
MR WASSERMAN: I think it is 15.
MR VISSER: 15 incidents, and at the time when you couldn't remember this, the idea was to get in the application form at all costs.
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And then later, to fill in?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Yes. Now, what I am referring to now is were you later - did you later receive a notification from the Investigation, apparently my Attorney doesn't agree with me Mr Chairman, just bear with me. Oh yes, no that is correct, it wasn't a subpoena, it was an informal request made to you and others of Durban, who served in the Security Branch at the time, to meet with the Investigation Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct yes.
MR VISSER: And you spent some two days dealing with all the issues which were raised by them and you allowed yourself to be questioned by them?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Inter alia, did you also deal with the Bhila incident?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: So, having said that Mr Wasserman, and you having now had opportunity of recalling the events of the 22nd of February 1987, will you please tell the Committee what you remember about the incident concerning Mr Bhila?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman. On the day in question, I was instructed by Colonel Taylor, to follow him in my vehicle to the Railway Police range.
MR VISSER: How did this instruction reach you, can you remember?
MR WASSERMAN: Via my radio.
MR VISSER: On your radio?
MR WASSERMAN: On my police radio, yes Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: I am sorry, but let's just take this step by step. Colonel Taylor or the then Major Taylor then asked you to meet him where?
CHAIRPERSON: Follow?
MR VISSER: To follow him where?
MR WASSERMAN: To the Railway shooting range at Winkelspruit.
MR VISSER: All right, and did anything happen along the road?
MR WASSERMAN: We pulled off before the range and I, and we spoke together and he informed me that the Vlakplaas contingent had picked up Mr Bhila.
He was at the range.
MR VISSER: The pistol shooting range?
MR WASSERMAN: That is the pistol shooting range, that is correct Mr Chairman. He further informed me that Mr Bhila was going to be eliminated.
MR VISSER: Did you say to him, well, why tell me?
MR WASSERMAN: No, the reason for that was clear to me as I also regarded Mr Bhila as a very dangerous Umkhonto weSizwe trained person.
MR VISSER: On that point, Mr Wasserman, we have received from my learned friend Mr Prior, Exhibit D, I believe it is D Mr Chairman, may I just check, the extract from the charge sheet, D, an extract from the charge sheet. In the Ramlakan case, which is just a cross-reference to Exhibit A and I am afraid Mr Chairman, I know you haven't received yours yet, we will really make serious attempts at making sure that you have yours tomorrow, at page 13 to an incident at the Port Natal Administration Board Offices at Lamontville relating to an SPM limpet mine, is that correct?
I beg your pardon, my Exhibit D seems to have disappeared, I must have mislaid it here somewhere. Be that as it may, it speaks for itself Mr Chairman. Is that part of the reason that, yes, I have just found it Mr Chairman, did you - what did you know about Mr Bhila, his background? Did you know that he had received training for example?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman, I knew he had been trained, he had been military trained internally.
MR VISSER: Yes, and the charge sheet suggested in paragraph 4 of Exhibit D that he suggested the bomb to be planted at Lamontville township offices on the 16th of June 1985?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: That is an important day, June the 16th, for the African National Congress, is that not so?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct yes.
MR VISSER: It is a day in which an important event is being remembered?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct sir.
MR VISSER: What about DLB's and Mr Bhila, can you fill the Committee in?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Bhila was responsible for the maintenance and distribution of weapon DLB's.
MR VISSER: Yes, we will hear more about that when Mr Botha gives his evidence.
Were those issues you believed to be relevant to Mr Bhila?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: As far as Mr Bhila is concerned, and as far as your information was concerned at the time, did he act in concert with others, in a unit or a cell?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, he did.
MR VISSER: Can you tell us who the other member or members of that unit might have been?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there were many amongst whom was Pumeso Nxiweni and Rosondo.
MR VISSER: And Rosondo, yes?
MR WASSERMAN: And many of the arrested people which has been referred to here, as the Ramlakaners, (indistinct) personnel.
MR VISSER: Least one gets the impression from your evidence so far that there were one or two or three MK activists who were planting bombs and limpet mines and explosives, etc, in the Durban area in 1987, can you just in a sentence tell us what the situation was? How prolific the membership was of people who had caused that kind of violent incidents?
MR WASSERMAN: Well, the people that we are referring to here, were part of the first internal APMC establishment by Umkhonto weSizwe inside South Africa.
MR VISSER: And they conducted their operations under a code name?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What was that?
MR WASSERMAN: The code name was Operation Butterfly.
MR VISSER: Operation Butterfly? And it was due to the penetration of this Security Branch into Operation Butterfly and that is part of history now, and we know, that led to the Ramlakan case?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman, yes.
MR VISSER: On the 24th and 25th of December 1986, approximately 30 of the cell members in Operation Butterfly were arrested?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And we know that those were the ones - that was the group from which the accused in the Ramlakan case came?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: When were they arrested?
MR VISSER: 24th and 25th of December 1986 Mr Chairman. There was a swoop and approximately 30 of them were arrested. Not to say that others of the same group weren't arrested later, but that was the big swoop.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were the accused in the Ramlakan case?
MR VISSER: From that group, not all of them were accused.
CHAIRPERSON: Judgement was given on the 18th of February 1987 with the State case closed on that day. I think there must be some mistake about dates.
MR VISSER: I am not mistaken about December, I might be mistaken about the year Mr Chairman.
MR WASSERMAN: If I may assist Mr Chairman, I think it was 1985.
MR VISSER: One year out Mr Chairman. I think it is on record now, that Mr Bhila and Pumeso Nxiweni were inter alia two of the accused in the Ramlakan case.
MR WASSERMAN: It is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: We will deal with the incidents which are laid at the door of Operation Butterfly and or its members, in the evidence of Mr Botha.
Coming back to your participation, you have just told us that you agreed with the viewpoint of Taylor that Bhila had to be eliminated, or did you say that he was a dangerous terrorist? I am not sure what you said. You agreed with Mr Taylor on what?
MR WASSERMAN: The reason was clear to me why Mr Taylor had said that.
MR VISSER: Did you agree with the thought that he had to be eliminated?
MR WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And you made common cause therewith?
MR WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What time of the day as best you can recollect, was it that you met Taylor on the way to Winkelspruit?
MR WASSERMAN: The best of my recollection is half past three, four o'clock, just after four in the afternoon.
MR VISSER: Yes. And would that be also more or less the time when you together with Taylor, each in your own vehicle, arrived at the pistol shooting range?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Yes. What did you find when you arrived there at the pistol shooting range?
MR WASSERMAN: I found the people from Vlakplaas there.
MR VISSER: Who were they?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr McCarter, Mr Rosslee, Mr Bosch, Mr Bhila.
MR VISSER: Did you know him well?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Bhila?
MR VISSER: Yes?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I did.
MR VISSER: All right, so he is there. Who else?
MR WASSERMAN: I believe that was all that was there.
MR VISSER: All right, black members?
MR WASSERMAN: We had Warrant Officer Lembede from Durban.
MR VISSER: Michael Lembede?
MR WASSERMAN: Michael Lembede, yes.
MR VISSER: Yes, anyone else?
MR WASSERMAN: No.
MR VISSER: While you were there, did you see any interrogation of Mr Bhila?
MR WASSERMAN: There was no interrogation going on on Mr Bhila.
MR VISSER: Did you not interrogate him at all?
MR WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Would there have been any reason for you to interrogate Mr Bhila?
MR WASSERMAN: There is no reason for me at all to have anything to say to Mr Bhila, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Would you have known at the time, or did you know at the time, the whereabouts of Mr Pumeso?
MR WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman, yes.
MR VISSER: It has been pointed out that this incident took place within three days after Mr Bhila was discharged from the Ramlakan case. Is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: I am sorry Mr Visser, could you just tell us you say that at that stage you were aware of the whereabouts of Mr Nxiweni?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Where was he at that time?
MR WASSERMAN: Allan Taylor Resident, Medical School.
MR MALAN: He was at the Res?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR VISSER: It was suggested that the police and that would include you, killed Mr Bhila in order to exert the police's own special justice, because it might have been thought that the Court was wrong in releasing him. What do you say to that proposition and that there was no other reason really why he was killed?
MR WASSERMAN: No, that is an incorrect reason Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What perspective would you place thereon?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mr Bhila had already shown his readiness and preparedness to use limpet mines and distribute weaponry to other personalities. I had little doubt that he would continue with such actions.
MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just ask was he not charged for exactly those type of offences?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, he was Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: If the question was do you think the Court made a mistake to release him?
MR WASSERMAN: Are you asking my personal opinion?
MR MALAN: Or to acquit him? Yes, the question was that there was a suggestion that it was the police's own justice because the Court acquitted him on such counts and then you come back and you say, no, but he had already proved that he had the mines, that he was distributing weapons, wasn't that part of the charge sheet? That is really the question, or do you know what he was charged for?
MR WASSERMAN: Not one hundred percent, I don't recall exactly what he was charged for, I wasn't the docket carrier.
MR MALAN: You knew everything about him, but you weren't involved in the preparation of the case?
MR WASSERMAN: No, I was aware he was to be charged for a bombing of Lamontville offices and for handling weaponry and distribution thereof, but the fact that he was acquitted by the Court, I accepted that.
MR MALAN: Why do you accept that he had to be killed?
MR WASSERMAN: Because the Court was the one forum that he would have continued with his actions, he was a committed combatant.
CHAIRPERSON: You thought he was, but you had not been able to prove it, had you?
MR WASSERMAN: No, I personally had not been able to.
CHAIRPERSON: The police had not been able to prove it?
MR WASSERMAN: Not during the court case, no Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: The only point Mr Chairman, least there is any confusion, is that I was really trying to clarify that there is no suggestion of criticism on the Court for having found, discharged him. If there was evidence, of court the Court was correct in doing so. This is the only point I am trying to make, but the reason why Bhila had to be killed in the estimation of this witness, that is another matter. That is the next question.
I am trying to deal with that issue now, and he has answered Mr Chairman, and that is that he considered that Bhila, they knew that he had done these things, whatever the Court found, they knew he had done this from their information and he was, they knew also that he would continue with his activities, so that answer has also been given Mr Chairman.
You, I think we have reached the point where you are at the pistol shooting range, you are there. As far as you can recall, he wasn't interrogated by anyone else, certainly not by you because you wouldn't have anything to interrogate Bhila about, and did you then later on that evening, accompany the Husky kombi which was referred to in evidence here, away from the pistol shooting range?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Were you in that car or did you follow with your own car?
MR WASSERMAN: I was in that vehicle Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Well, just take us from there and take us through the facts.
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the following personnel got into that vehicle, it was myself, McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch, Mr Bhila and Lembede.
MR VISSER: Lembede, and where were you on your way to?
MR WASSERMAN: We were headed off to a spot that Mr Lembede was familiar with, which is in the Umbumbulu area somewhere, at a place that I am not able to get back to.
MR VISSER: Sorry, I didn't hear the last, you dropped your voice and I couldn't hear you?
MR WASSERMAN: It is a place in the Umbumbulu area, it is a spot that I am not able to get back to Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Yes, while you are on that point, we discussed last evening, did we not, the request that came through Mr Ngubane acting for the family of Mr Bhila, as to the possibility of discovering where that spot is?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Perhaps you could just tell the Committee what you told me on the probabilities of you finding it again?
MR WASSERMAN: The probabilities of finding it, are not good Mr Chairman. It was my first time to go there.
MR VISSER: Have you been there since?
MR WASSERMAN: I have not Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: You travelled there in the dark, that is common cause?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you travel with a straight road until you got to this particular cliff?
MR WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What was the position?
MR WASSERMAN: We left the tarred road, turned - I am not sure if we turned after Umbumbulu area or somewhere else, we turned to the right and thereafter, we turned many times, and I am unable to state where we were.
MR VISSER: Yes, but if there is any assistance that you can give at all, you are quite happy and willing to give such assistance?
MR WASSERMAN: I will, indeed.
MR VISSER: Yes. All right, you are on your way to the spot which you say you probably won't be able to find again, and what, did anything occur along the road, along the way?
MR WASSERMAN: We had a puncture along the way.
MR VISSER: Yes, and then eventually, did you come to this particular spot?
MR WASSERMAN: Eventually, the vehicle was stopped at that particular spot, yes.
MR VISSER: Tell us what you can remember about what transpired there.
MR WASSERMAN: At that spot, Mr Bhila was taken out of the vehicle and taken a walk to the edge. He was seated down. He was blindfolded.
MR VISSER: When was this blindfold placed in position?
MR WASSERMAN: The blindfold was placed I think, at the rifle range.
MR VISSER: At the rifle range already?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes.
MR VISSER: Right. Was he also cuffed?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: By his feet or by his hands?
MR WASSERMAN: Wristcuffs.
MR VISSER: Wristcuffs. All right, and what happened then?
MR WASSERMAN: He was then sitting down and Mr McCarter had one shot, shot him once.
MR VISSER: Shot him once, where on his body did he shoot him?
MR WASSERMAN: In the head.
MR VISSER: In the head. What happened to Mr Bhila after the shot had been fired?
MR WASSERMAN: He lay down, was straightened out.
MR VISSER: All right.
MR WASSERMAN: Flattened out.
MR VISSER: And what happened then?
MR WASSERMAN: Then Mr Rosslee shot him in the head.
MR VISSER: Can you recall today clearly how many times?
MR WASSERMAN: No, not specifically, but I recall another two shots, I think, Mr Chair.
MR VISSER: Another two shots?
MR WASSERMAN: Two shots went off.
MR VISSER: In total?
MR WASSERMAN: In total.
MR VISSER: One and perhaps another one?
MR WASSERMAN: One, and perhaps another, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So, two by Rosslee?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes sir.
MR VISSER: Two by Rosslee? Do you remember anything else that might have occurred while Mr Rosslee fired his shot?
MR WASSERMAN: Definitely Mr Chairman, he had problems with the feeding of the firearm he was making use of. He was cocking it, obviously to clear the stoppage that had happened.
MR VISSER: You know, when you and Mr Rosslee refer to cocking it, one gets the impression of cocking it with your thumb, bringing back the firing arm, is that what you mean?
MR WASSERMAN: No, that is incorrect, that is not the impression.
MR VISSER: What are you talking about when you say cocking it?
MR WASSERMAN: Pulling the slide right back.
MR VISSER: Wracking it in other words?
MR WASSERMAN: Wracking, it depends what shooting club you (indistinct).
MR VISSER: Yes, I suppose so, all right. You remember observing that?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I did, I did Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: If Rosslee had fired seven shots, would you have remembered that?
MR WASSERMAN: I very definitely would have remembered that, yes.
MR VISSER: Yes, all right. There was a suggestion made particularly by Bosch and reference thereto also made by Rosslee in his Exhibit B and in his amnesty application, to a certain Spyker Mhieza also having been present.
First of all, or perhaps I should roll the two into one, did you see Spyker Mhieza there, either at the pistol shooting range or at the scene of the assassination on that particular day in question?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mhieza was not there on that day.
MR VISSER: He wasn't, you can state that positively?
MR WASSERMAN: I can state that (indistinct).
MR VISSER: After Mr Bhila had been shot, what happened then, I mean to Mr Bhila?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Lembede and Mr McCarter then bent over the body, I presume they were taking off the handcuffs and he was then pushed over the side of the cliff Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Yes. Was it quite dark?
MR WASSERMAN: It was very dark Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Were you however able to make out outlines, silhouettes of bodies?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.
MR VISSER: How far from the scene were you at the time?
MR WASSERMAN: I was standing from here to perhaps Mr Wilson.
MR VISSER: Justice Wilson, about five, six paces?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct.
MR VISSER: And were you able to observe what was going on?
MR WASSERMAN: To a very large extend, I could.
MR VISSER: Yes, all right. Mr Wasserman, we know that thereafter you left. Did you go back to Durban?
MR WASSERMAN: I went back to the rifle range first and then on to Durban, yes.
MR VISSER: What happened, well, you say the rifle range, do you mean the pistol shooting range?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What happened there?
MR WASSERMAN: I then reported to Mr Taylor.
MR VISSER: Was he still there?
MR WASSERMAN: He was there, he was waiting there.
MR VISSER: Yes, and you told him what had happened?
MR WASSERMAN: I told him.
CHAIRPERSON: And you left your car there?
MR WASSERMAN: I had indeed, yes sir.
MR MALAN: Were there any other people waiting with Major Taylor at the range at that time when you returned?
MR WASSERMAN: There was another vehicle there Mr Chairman, I think that was Warrant Officer Lembede's vehicle. I don't recall anyone else, there might have been another personality with him, but I couldn't name such a person.
MR MALAN: Why would Taylor have stayed behind and wait for you there, all by himself?
MR WASSERMAN: I can't answer that. I think he would have waited to check on that vehicle that was also left at the range. My vehicle as well as Mr Lembede's.
MR MALAN: Can you tell me why all of you had to go along for the execution, I think you said yourself McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch and Lembede went with for the execution of Bhila, why all of you?
MR WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Taylor informed me that I must accompany Lembede, he would take us to a place where the job could be done. My exact role, I presume was just to accompany Lembede as another Durban person, on this operation.
MR MALAN: And to your recollection, only Mr Taylor stayed behind at the range, at that stage?
MR WASSERMAN: That is my recollection, yes sir.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am hoping you are going to tell me that you have had enough of this day.
CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
