ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: ... the lunch adjournment, we have just concluded with the testimony of Mr Msani. Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I call Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho please.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 57, I think? Mr Mbutho, can you put on your earphones please.
MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, I made an error here, in fact, it is supposed to be Hlongwa who is the next applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Hlongwa sitting next to you?
PALELA BEKHISENZO HLONGWA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwa, you are also the applicant here, and you are applying for amnesty, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Were you born in Umkomaas on the 7th of July 1972?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: And you grew up there until the time of your arrest, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Did you attend school?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: What level of education did you attend?
MR HLONGWA: Standard 4.
MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when that was?
MR HLONGWA: That was in 1990.
MR NGUBANE: The year when you attained standard 4, I don't mean the date of your arrest, can you recall or can't you recall?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, 1990.
MR NGUBANE: What school did you attend?
MR HLONGWA: I last attended school at Macubeni school, but I went to two different schools.
MR NGUBANE: Yes, the first school that you attended, can you recall what year that was?
MR HLONGWA: I last attended that school in 1989.
MR NGUBANE: What school was that?
MR HLONGWA: Opakheni.
MR NGUBANE: Were you at any stage involved with any political organisation or party?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when it was approximately?
MR HLONGWA: In 1985.
MR NGUBANE: What political organisation did you participate in in 1985?
MR HLONGWA: The United Democratic Front, UDF.
MR NGUBANE: Did you hold any position in the organisation at that stage or at a subsequent stage?
MR HLONGWA: No.
MR NGUBANE: You were just an ordinary member, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: In 1985, we have heard that there was a fight between the UDF and the Inkatha Freedom Party, do you confirm that?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: And Mr Sixtus Fana Mkhize was a member of Inkatha and he was a prominent member, the organiser and he participated with the police in the attack on the UDF, do you confirm that?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: You have heard the evidence of Nicholas Msani, regarding the activities of Mr Mkhize during the period 1985 to 1990. Do you consider Mr Msani's evidence as being true and correct in all respects?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, it is the truth.
MR NGUBANE: Do you specifically confirm that Mr Fana Mkhize, the deceased, participated in the killing of the people and the destruction of property, the people that belonged to the UDF?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: In 1990 you heard that there were SDU's formed, Self Defence Units formed. Are you aware of the formation of the SDU's?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Were you at any stage a member of the SDU's?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Was it in 1990 that you became a member?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: We have heard that the purpose of the SDU was to protect the society because the UDF people could not protect, could not be protected by the police, the police participated with the attack, with the IFP, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Mr Msani has given evidence that at some stage there was a decision taken to eliminate the deceased, Mr Mkhize. Are you aware of that decision?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: And he also gave evidence that attempts were made on Mr Mkhize's life on several occasions, were you part of those attempts to eliminate Mr Mkhize?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: In 1990, the 7th of November, we have heard that Mr Mkhize was attacked and you were part of the group that attacked Mr Mkhize. Was that evidence correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, it is the truth.
MR NGUBANE: We have heard that you and the other applicants attacked him. What was your role, you specifically when Mr Mkhize was attacked?
MR HLONGWA: I shot at him.
MR NGUBANE: With what did you shoot him?
MR HLONGWA: A gun.
MR NGUBANE: A factory made firearm or was it a home made firearm?
MR HLONGWA: A home made gun.
MR NGUBANE: Where did you get that gun from?
MR HLONGWA: I got it from Fanie, Mr Mbutho.
MR NGUBANE: That is the gentleman that is the third applicant, the one that is going to testify after you, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: When you shot at the deceased, can you recall how many shots you fired at him?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.
MR NGUBANE: How many?
MR HLONGWA: Once.
MR NGUBANE: Where about on his body if you can recall?
MR HLONGWA: It was on the back although I cannot point out specifically where, because he was already injured when I shot at him.
MR NGUBANE: But when you shot at him, is it correct that he was still alive?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, he was still alive.
MR NGUBANE: Did you inflict any further injuries on the deceased on that very same day?
MR HLONGWA: No, that was the first instance.
MR NGUBANE: Yes, after you had shot him, did you assault him further in any manner?
MR HLONGWA: No.
MR NGUBANE: After you had shot him and after he had been hacked, what happened?
MR HLONGWA: We fled the area because police approached and IFP members as well, so we fled and we hid in the forest.
MR NGUBANE: I see. When you did that, Mr Msani has given evidence that he believed that he was acting within the realm of the call of the ANC, do you also confirm that?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Did you hope that once Mr Mkhize had been eliminated, there would be, the violence that was perpetrated against the UDF, would subside?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, I thought so because he was one of the people who troubled us a lot in the area. Therefore I thought that if he could be removed, we would be able to work progressively, because he was one of the people who actually wanted to prevent us from conducting our political work.
MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that as you are sitting here, you have been convicted to undergo a period of imprisonment of 20 years?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: And you were convicted by the Supreme Court of South Africa in 1992?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Did you hear when a portion of what the Judge said in the High Court, was read out to Mr Msani that there was hostility between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party and that that led to hostility created in you against the deceased and inter alia that that hostility might have influenced you to commit this crime, did you hear that?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Do you confirm that the position sketched out by the Honourable Judge is more or less the true position of what happened?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: You realise that what you did was wrong, against the family and the community of South Africa as such?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Do you wish to say something about your actions and do you have a message to the family of the deceased?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Can you say what you wish to say?
MR HLONGWA: What I wish to say, I wish the Mkhize family was present so that they could hear what I am saying.
What I did to them, was wrong and I wish to apologise for that.
MR NGUBANE: Are you prepared to meet them on a man to man basis and apologise to them?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, very much. I would appreciate that.
MR NGUBANE: Have you made any attempts to meet them at any stage?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us what attempts you have made and what the result was of those attempts?
MR HLONGWA: At Westville prison, I attempted to get into contact with the Mkhize family. It was not easy but I contacted the Welfare section in the prison and they were able to telephone the family.
I had once telephoned them myself, but I also asked the Social Worker to telephone the family. The Social Worker did this, and they discussed with the family, although I don't know how I can take our discussions further, but I have made that contact.
MR NGUBANE: When you made that contact, were you doing that on your behalf and on behalf of the other two applicants?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Do you feel sorry about what you have done, killing the deceased?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: If you were not involved in politics, would you have killed the deceased?
MR HLONGWA: No.
MR NGUBANE: We have heard evidence that when you killed the deceased, the members of his family were also present and did you attempt to kill them at any stage?
MR HLONGWA: No.
MR NGUBANE: Okay. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Just a few Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, can you briefly tell the Committee members, how did you join the SDU and what procedure did you go through when you joined the SDU?
MR HLONGWA: There were discussions between ANC leaders. It transpired that there were no people who protected the community, because the police could not protect the community, especially people who were ANC aligned.
There was an agreement then that people should be chosen to protect the community. We therefore met with those people who had been to that meeting, and we were elected to form this branch or to form this unit.
MS THABETE: Can you go back a little bit, who elected you?
MR HLONGWA: Bukela Luthuli, he was the person responsible for that.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what you mean, you were selected rather than elected. You were chosen or appointed rather than elected?
MS THABETE: You say Mr Mkhize, the deceased, was responsible for attacking the ANC. Did he used to attack the ANC by himself or were there other people who he usually attacked the ANC with?
MR HLONGWA: He would be in the company of other people.
MS THABETE: So following that question, was Mr Mkhize the only person you targeted out of all the people that attacked you?
MR HLONGWA: No. He is not the only person who was targeted, but he was one of the people whom we had targeted to remove.
MS THABETE: Just as a matter of interest and for the record, you say you have tried to contact the deceased's next of kin, who did you speak to?
CHAIRPERSON: You said that you managed yourself to telephone the family. When you yourself telephoned the family, do you know who you spoke to?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?
MR HLONGWA: At the first instance, I requested to speak to that family's elder boy. I tried a second time, because I wanted to speak to him specifically and I spoke to his mother, and she told me that he no longer resided at home.
Therefore I went to the Social Worker and asked them to speak to the mother because I didn't think that she would appreciate talking to me.
MS THABETE: You say you phoned to speak to the son of the deceased, is that correct?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MR LAX: Sorry, I understood you to be saying that you spoke to not the son of the deceased, but the son of the family, the oldest son of the family. Can you clarify that please?
MR HLONGWA: It was Nana, the family's eldest boy.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the, who was the eldest boy's father, was that the deceased or the deceased's father?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, the father is the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: The deceased that you killed?
MR HLONGWA: Yes.
MS THABETE: Do you know his name?
MR HLONGWA: Yes, I do.
MS THABETE: What is his name?
MR HLONGWA: Fanana Sixtus Mkhize.
MS THABETE: No, I am referring to the son of Fanana Sixtus Mkhize, the one you wanted to speak to?
MR HLONGWA: Nanana Mkhize.
MS THABETE: What did you want to say to him, if I may ask?
MR HLONGWA: I wanted to request him that if he could maybe come see me in the prison, so that I could talk to him, because I deeply regretted what I had done to their family.
I wanted them to meet me so that they could realise that I was indeed very sorry and remorseful about what I had done.
MS THABETE: Approximately how old would he be, the son of Sixtus, Nanana?
MR HLONGWA: Although I cannot be certain, he may be about 24, 26.
MS THABETE: No more questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
MR SIBANYONI: Just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwa, by the killing of the deceased, Mr Mkhize, what did you people intend to achieve?
MR HLONGWA: We would not have benefitted much, but we wanted to be able to work freely or progressively in our organisation, because he was one of the people who attacked our organisation, who wished to remove our organisation's members.
MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
MR LAX: No questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hlongwa, that concludes - sorry, Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising out of questions put by Mr Sibanyoni?
MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED: .
