CHAIRPERSON: I think just for purposes of record, it is already on record, the Committee is the same as it was introduced earlier this morning, namely Messrs Sibanyoni and Lax and myself, Judge Miller and the legal representative is Mr Ngubane, appearing for the applicant, and Ms Thabete is the Evidence Leader. Mr Ngubane, you are going to be calling the applicant?
TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ngubane?
EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Cele, can you please try to raise your voice a little bit, you don't have to fear anything, just relax.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, if you could just sit a little bit closer to the microphone, not very close, but a little bit closer.
MR LAX: Just speak now so we can hear. Mr Cele, just say a few words, can you hear us?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR LAX: That is better, thank you.
MR CELE: Am I going to be led or ...
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane is going to be asking you some questions.
MR CELE: Okay.
MR NGUBANE: Mr Cele, is it correct that you were born on the 29th of July 1971?
MR CELE: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Were you born in the Ixopo area in the Province of kwaZulu Natal?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: And did you grow up in Ixopo until round about June 1993, you were still a man of Ixopo?
MR CELE: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Do you still reside in that area to the present moment?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that at some stage you were a member of the African National Congress?
MR CELE: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Can you indicate to us at approximately what stage did you become a member of the African National Congress?
MR CELE: From 1990.
MR NGUBANE: Are you still a member of the African National Congress?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: During the period 1990 - 1993, did you at any stage become a member of the Self Defence Unit in your area?
MR CELE: Yes, I became one in 1992.
MR NGUBANE: Yes, how did you become a member? Did you complete a formal application form or did you just join without there being an application form?
MR CELE: Mr Ntela who is now deceased as well as Mr Reggie Radebe who is also late, arrived in the area and we joined the SDU. Sometimes we would also travel to the ANC office in Pietermaritzburg.
MR NGUBANE: When Mr Ntela and Mr Radebe arrived, did they make you complete certain documents so as to be members of the SDU?
MR CELE: There were something that we did fill in, although I don't remember whether those were application forms or not.
MR NGUBANE: Mr Richard Reggie Radebe, did you know him as holding a certain portfolio in the African National Congress?
MR CELE: Yes. He was the Deputy Chairperson of the Midlands branch of the ANC.
MR NGUBANE: Right, they came to you in 1992, did you say so?
MR CELE: It was in 1992, that is what I remember.
MR NGUBANE: Right. When you were made to complete certain forms and you joined the Self Defence Unit, was the Self Defence Unit structure already in existence in your place, or you were amongst the first groups that joined the Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: We were the first people to join the SDU.
MR NGUBANE: Was it explained to you, the purpose of the Self Defence Unit, of the formation of the Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: Yes, it was explained. The purpose of forming that SDU was to protect the community against our enemies, and at that time or enemy was the IFP.
MR NGUBANE: Right, can you explain why you say that Inkatha were enemies of the community at that time?
MR CELE: Yes, I can explain. The area was predominantly ANC and there were no ANC members in the area, they would just come to attack in the area.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think there was a mistake in the translation, it was said that the area was predominantly ANC but there weren't many ANC people in the area, I think the last one was meant to be IFP, is that correct?
INTERPRETER: Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you. You said there were no Inkatha people in the area and they used to come to the area to attack, is that right?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct. Can I continue?
MR NGUBANE: Yes.
MR CELE: They would come to attack because they wanted the area to become an IFP stronghold.
MR NGUBANE: Had you experienced a number of attacks in the area?
MR CELE: Yes, for a number of times. Sometimes they would attack just fire shots and return to wherever they came from.
MR NGUBANE: During the attacks, were there any people killed or any properties destroyed?
MR CELE: Yes. It sometimes happened, there was one Mbele boy who was killed. A boy of about five years old. Can I continue?
MR NGUBANE: Right.
MR CELE: That was not the end of it. Previously there had been an attack and Sandile Biyase had been killed.
MR NGUBANE: When you joined the SDU's, did you receive any form of training?
MR CELE: Yes. There was some form of training that we received. It was something basic, just on how to identify the enemy or on how to protect yourself from the enemy.
MR NGUBANE: Were you trained in any way in methods of physical contact with the enemy?
MR CELE: With regards to fighting with the enemy, we received something of a crash course.
MR NGUBANE: Was it explained to you what was meant by defending the community, would you wait to be attacked, or would you perhaps attack in order to avert an impending attack?
MR CELE: We would wait for an attack, but it would largely depend on what the situation was at the time.
MR NGUBANE: Right. Let's come to June 1993, in your application you said that you are applying for amnesty in relation to a murder matter that occurred in June 1993, is that correct?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
MR NGUBANE: That took place in Noqwega area. Is that area in Ixopo?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Was the deceased there Lindela Zulu?
MR CELE: That is the truth.
MR NGUBANE: Before he could be killed, did you know him?
MR CELE: Yes, I knew him well.
MR NGUBANE: Was he a member, before he could be killed, was he a member of Inkatha or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: As a person who was from that area, as I mentioned before, the area was predominantly ANC. He was therefore one of our members.
When Sandile died, he left the area and went to reside in town and it later transpired that he had defected to the IFP.
MR NGUBANE: Did he, when he was still residing in the area, attend camps which you held as the Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: Yes. He would sometimes attend camps, but not regularly because he was employed.
One time when he attended the camp, he had along a dog.
MR NGUBANE: What is the significance of the dog, can you explain?
MR CELE: I cannot say because he just had this dog with him, which was something which was not allowed at the camp.
MR NGUBANE: Was his behaviour on that evening or during that night, consistent with the discipline of the Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: No, I do not think it was in line because if we were attacked or if there was an attack, the dog would probably bark and that would alert our enemies.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, besides the dog, the deceased behaviour, Lindela Zulu, was it disruptive in any manner during that night?
MR CELE: He was very restless on that night. We tried to calm him down, to make him sit down.
MR NGUBANE: Right. You said he left the area and he lived somewhere. Did you at some stage discover that he had defected and was an Inkatha member?
MR CELE: Yes, we did.
MR NGUBANE: Right. How did you get to know that?
MR CELE: We learnt of it after the death of our comrade, Sandile from one person, I think it was his wife.
MR NGUBANE: Yes, when you learnt that he was an Inkatha member, did you discover that he had participate in the attacks of the ANC people or any person of the ANC?
MR CELE: When he left to stay in town, we did not have a problem with him. We did not even know that he had defected to the IFP.
Even that strange behaviour at the camp, was not taken into consideration at the time. When Sandile died, he sent his wife to dig up cartridges from the bullets that had been used to kill Sandile.
MR NGUBANE: Right. As a result of that, you realised that although he pretended to be a member of the Self Defence Unit, he was an Inkatha member?
MR CELE: Yes. That is when we realised that he was an IFP member.
MR NGUBANE: Did you take any steps after that?
MR CELE: What sort of steps?
MR NGUBANE: To approach him?
MR CELE: Yes. We went to him and we discussed it with him, and we asked him about it and he admitted to us.
MR NGUBANE: Where did you approach him and where did you discuss with him?
MR CELE: We were at Ixopo.
MR NGUBANE: At Ixopo, the new area wherein he was residing now, is that correct?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: How many were you that approached him in Ixopo?
MR CELE: It was myself, Mzwandile, Msupa.
MR NGUBANE: Is that all?
MR CELE: There was somebody else called Mgunezi Mkhize.
MR LAX: Sorry just repeat that last name, I didn't hear it properly, Mkhize, somebody Mkhize?
MR CELE: Mgunezi.
MR LAX: Thank you very much.
MR NGUBANE: When you approached him, was your purpose to interrogate him about what you have heard?
MR CELE: Yes, we would question him.
MR NGUBANE: Right. And did you enquire about his membership of Inkatha?
MR CELE: Yes, we asked him if he was an IFP member and he said yes.
MR NGUBANE: Did you enquire about the attacks of Inkatha, whether he knew about him or whether he participated in them?
MR CELE: Yes, we did ask him. He said he had not as yet received a card, but he was present when the attacks happened.
MR NGUBANE: Did he indicate to you whether there were any further attacks which he and Inkatha had planned to wage against you?
MR CELE: Yes, he did explain that the attacks would have been ongoing.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, where were you when you asked him about these?
MR CELE: We were near my home, at Noqwega.
MR NGUBANE: You can tell us how, if you can tell us, how did it come about that he was eventually murdered?
MR CELE: We assaulted him. At that time Mgunezi had already left. It was myself and the others that I have mentioned. He tried to fight back, he fled, running to his grandmother's house.
We went in there.
MR NGUBANE: Let's take it step by step. You assaulted him and then Mgunezi ...
MR CELE: And he fought back. Then he fled and we chased after him. He went into the house and we went into the house. My shoe had come off, so I remained in the house, whilst the other two went outside with him.
MR NGUBANE: When you assaulted him, were you armed?
MR CELE: Yes, we were armed.
MR NGUBANE: What sort of arm were you personally, carrying?
MR CELE: I had a knife.
MR NGUBANE: The other members that were there, that is Mzwandile, Sandi, what were they carrying?
MR CELE: One had a firearm, I cannot remember who. Initially it was with Mzwandile, but I don't know just who had the firearm at that time.
MR NGUBANE: You were left behind because your shoe was off. You had temporarily lost your shoe and the other gentlemen got out of the house with him, is that your evidence?
MR CELE: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Did they continue assaulting him as they were moving out of the house and when they were outside the house?
MR CELE: They dragged him out of the house. When I got outside, he was laying down. I enquired from them what had happened.
I said is he dead, and they said yes, he is already dead. I also went close to him and I stabbed him with my knife.
MR NGUBANE: Whereabout did you stab him? Whereabout did you stab him?
MR CELE: I don't remember but it was around the chest.
MR NGUBANE: How many times did you stab him?
MR CELE: Just once.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you stab him? You said when you got out he was already laying down, and they said he was dead. Why did you stab him?
MR CELE: I wanted to ensure that he was dead, because he would have been a danger to us in the community.
MR NGUBANE: Are you saying that when you killed this man, your intention was to eliminate a danger because this man was working for Inkatha and he was involved in further plans to attack the SDU's, is that correct?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Now, you stabbed him. What happened then after you had stabbed him?
MR CELE: I would not know, because thereafter we left.
MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you were not arrested for this incident?
MR CELE: Yes, I was not arrested.
MR NGUBANE: As you are sitting here, are you feeling any remorse about what you did?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: Have you tried to contact the family members to express your remorse?
MR CELE: No. It was not easy for me to approach them, although I felt that I wanted to do that. Even though I wished that I could, I could not just go straight to them. That is why I decided to actually apply for amnesty.
MR NGUBANE: Were you scared to approach them as an individual, is that what you are saying?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR NGUBANE: But if you were to be guaranteed police protection to approach them and express your feelings about the incident, would you do that?
MR CELE: Yes, very much so.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Cele, can you explain again, maybe let me start here, you say you were with Mr Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi when you went to the deceased, is that true?
MR CELE: That is correct.
MS THABETE: Before you actually went there, did you sit down and discuss the fact that you want to go to him?
MR CELE: Yes, we discussed it.
MS THABETE: When you were discussing, what was your intention, what intention did you have of going there?
MR CELE: It was to discover or to learn the truth from the deceased.
MS THABETE: What information did you have before you went to ask him what it was you wanted to ascertain from him?
MR CELE: The information we had regarded the death of Sandile, that he was involved in that incident.
MS THABETE: Would it be correct for me to say your intentions of going there was to ask him whether he was also involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETE: And there were no other intentions?
MR CELE: No, the situation actually became tenser when we actually came and approached him, and he admitted the truth to us.
MS THABETE: Okay, I am coming there. When you were still discussing, I am sure you must have discussed the fact that either he would say yes, I was there when Sandile Biyase was killed, or no I wasn't there? When you were discussing it, did you make decisions what you were going to do if he denied or admitted? What you were going to do to him?
MR CELE: The decision came at the end when he had admitted, we had not actually discussed other questions.
MS THABETE: No, I don't understand you. What I am saying is, you were discussing with your friends, right, that you were going to go to Mr Zulu and asked him whether he was involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase.
Surely when you were discussing it, you would have considered what would happen if he admits, what you would do to him if he admits, or what you would do to him if he doesn't admit? Surely you must have discussed that?
MR CELE: We did discuss that.
MS THABETE: So you did discuss that?
MR CELE: Yes, we did. I thought I had mentioned it before.
CHAIRPERSON: What was your resolution when you discussed it earlier, in the event of him admitting that he was an IFP member, what did you decide at that meeting?
MR CELE: We discussed that if he admitted that he was involved in the incident of killing our comrade, we would also do the same thing that he did to our comrade.
MS THABETE: So what you are telling me is that you decided that if he does admit, you will kill him?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
MS THABETE: So would it be correct for me to say that your intention was not only to question him, but it was to question him and then if he admits, to kill him?
MR CELE: Yes, we would first question him. If he denied it, we would not have done anything to him. But if he admitted, we would kill him.
MS THABETE: Did you go to Mr Zulu's place in Noqwega village?
MR CELE: Yes, we did.
MS THABETE: What was he doing there?
MR NGUBANE: Sorry, maybe just to put the - as far as I understood the applicant, he was in Ixopo now. They went to Ixopo.
CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Ngubane, if you could just clear up exactly where he was, because at one stage I got the impression that he was in his new place, that he went to, in Ixopo town, but then later he said that when they spoke to them, they were in Noqwega and he ran into his granny's house. If you could perhaps ask him precisely where did they confront the deceased.
MS THABETE: Precisely where did you confront the deceased?
MR CELE: We left Ixopo with him, and we went to Noqwega.
CHAIRPERSON: So you met him in Ixopo, that is the town, and then you took him back to your place at Noqwega?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And his old place?
MR CELE: Yes.
MS THABETE: If I may ask right there, how did you meet him at Ixopo and what did you tell him?
MR CELE: The person who could talk to him was Mgunezi, who managed to get him into the car. They actually bought liquor.
MS THABETE: Okay, and then you went to Noqwega, where? At his place, at your place, at whose place?
MR CELE: We were on the road, but it was near his home. Near his grandmother's home.
MS THABETE: So where did you question him?
MR CELE: We questioned him there, near his grandmother's house.
MS THABETE: In the car?
MR CELE: No.
MS THABETE: You say he admitted to the fact that he was there when Sandile Biyase was killed, is that correct?
MR CELE: Yes.
MS THABETE: Was he armed?
MR CELE: When?
MS THABETE: When you were questioning him?
MR CELE: No, he was not armed.
MS THABETE: So you decided to kill him because he admitted?
MR CELE: Yes.
MS THABETE: What did you want to achieve by killing him, what was your objective?
MR CELE: As a person who grew up in the area, who knew it inside and out, when he defected to an organisation that was an enemy to the community, he would have been a danger to us as he had already admitted that there were other planned attacks against our area.
Moreover he knew us as people he had grown up with. He knew that we were organisers and activists in the area.
MS THABETE: Mr Cele, isn't it strange though that the applicant, sorry the deceased was once an ANC member, you fetch him, you question him whether he attacked Sandile Biyase together with other IFP members, and you also question him whether he was an IFP member, isn't it strange for him to admit that to you, being ANC members?
MR CELE: When you ask questions, you should ask them in a manner that he is satisfied and that he is free to answer them as honestly as possible. That is how we approached him. We did not enquire from him when he had left our organisation, but we just asked him those questions and he admitted to us.
CHAIRPERSON: When he admitted to you, had you started the assault upon him, the physical assault upon him, before he admitted to you or only after he admitted to you?
MR CELE: At that time, we had not yet started assaulting him, we were just talking to him.
MR LAX: One thing is puzzling me. You said you managed to get him into the car by buying liquor. Just explain that to us. Did you carry on drinking liquor with him and then question him, or what was the story? I am just a bit puzzled by that.
MR CELE: We met him in town, I don't know whether he had been drinking, but Mgunezi is the one who bought liquor and he is the one that they were drinking with.
MR LAX: Are you saying that the deceased had been drinking liquor with Mgunezi?
MR CELE: Yes.
MR LAX: And so, did he appear to be intoxicated?
MR CELE: Although he did look like he was drinking, but he was not drunk.
MR LAX: Carry on Ms Thabete, thank you, sorry. I just wanted to clear that up.
MS THABETE: Maybe you can clarify this for me, I don't quite understand.
You say you picked him up in town whilst he was drinking with his friends.
MR CELE: No. He was not with anyone, he was alone. Mgunezi called him and asked him to get into the car. We did not physically carry him to the car.
MS THABETE: So all you said to him was, come, we want to speak to you? What did you say to him to influence him to come with you to Noqwega?
MR CELE: Mgunezi called him and when he got into the car, we said the car should just go because we wanted to go and question him.
It was not easy to question him in town, because there were many IFP people in town. If they had met us, or if they had found us there, they would have shot at us.
The town was divided into two, the bottom part belonged to the ANC and the top part belonged to the IFP. IFP members were free to carry their weapons freely whilst we were not.
Therefore we could not remain in town for quite a long time with the deceased because people could come upon us and kill us.
MS THABETE: My last question to you. If the deceased had admitted that he was IFP or he has changed to join the IFP, but was not involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase, would you still have killed him?
MR CELE: There would have been no reason to kill him then, because that would have meant that he was not involved in the attacks in the area.
MS THABETE: Last, last question. So there is nothing wrong, is that what you are saying, there was nothing wrong as such with him changing from being an ANC member to being an IFP member?
MR CELE: No. He could have become an IFP member and stay in the area, but what was wrong was for him to be involved in these attacks.
There were other people who had been Inkatha members, but who were not active in the Inkatha activities, and who are still around today.
In addition, those people were just a few.
MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete. Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman. Mgunezi, was he a friend of the deceased?
MR CELE: I am not sure, but from the way that they were talking, it seemed like they were friendly. We all grew up in the same area, so we knew each other well.
MR NGUBANE: Did the fact that the deceased admitted in killing one of you, confirm his story that he would be involved in further killings of the people in the area?
MR CELE: Yes, it could have happened because he also mentioned that there were other planned attacks which made it obvious that he would have been involved too, in those attacks.
There was just one route in the area.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Cele, immediately the deceased got into the car, did the car speed away with him?
MR CELE: It did not speed away, it just left. He did not even enquire what was going on or where he was being taken. We just talked.
MR SIBANYONI: You said you asked him in a manner in which made him free to talk and admit. What manner is that?
MR CELE: We asked him that we had heard that he had joined Inkatha and he said yes, I had.
We asked him why and he said he liked Inkatha and when we enquired about the ANC, he also responded. We were just talking to him in a proper way, in a decent way although I cannot remember what other questions we put to him, but we were just talking.
MR SIBANYONI: If you say by merely joining the IFP, he would not be killed, the only problem was his participation or involvement in the killing of Sandile, will I be correct to say he was killed because he killed Sandile?
MR CELE: It is now twofold.
MR SIBANYONI: What is that two?
MR CELE: He was an IFP member and he was involved in killing someone, therefore it meant that he was an IFP member involved in killing people, and those were the people that we were opposed to.
We did not have a problem with somebody who was an IFP member, but if you were an IFP member and involved in killing people, you were an enemy.
MR SIBANYONI: The inference that I am drawing there is that if he didn't participate in the attack, in the killing, he would not have been killed, therefore the killing was a revenge killing. What would you say?
MR CELE: Yes, it was.
MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions?
MR LAX: Just one aspect Chairperson. There was something earlier on about, you were talking about his wife digging up cartridge cases from the killing of Sandile. What was that all about? Just explain to us, was that part of your information or where did that come in, you spoke about that earlier?
MR CELE: I explained before that a certain Sandile had died in the area, and it was later discovered that the deceased had been involved.
His wife and his mother came to us, or his mother came to us and told us that the deceased's wife had come to their home and had been sent by Sandile, to dig up cartridges from the bullets used to kill Sandile.
We told them that we would not discuss the matter on the road, but we would come to their home and discuss this matter with them, and therefore we went to their home and they told us the entire story.
When we confronted the deceased with this story, he also admitted that he was indeed involved in the killing of Sandile. Moreover, when we went to Sandile's home, about six o'clock, we could not find any cartridges on the ground, whereas gunshots had been fired several times.
MR LAX: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, just for my own record, these people that you were with, your two comrades, what were their names, I have heard them, but I just want to get their correct spelling, that you were with when you met the deceased and took part in the killing of the deceased with yourself?
MR CELE: It was Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Did you have a Commander of your Self Defence Unit?
MR CELE: Although it was not formal, a person who used to be in charge or who used to assist in most things, was Jili.
CHAIRPERSON: Jili?
MR CELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his first name?
MR CELE: Magre.
CHAIRPERSON: This decision that the three of you made, that is Msupa, Mzwandile and yourself, when you discussed it before you met the deceased and you said if he admits that he took part in the killing of Sandile, we will then kill him - was that decision just confined to the three of you or did you approach Jili and say this is what we plan to do?
MR CELE: (No recording) ... but after the incident, we approached the Chairperson, who was Magubani at the time, and we told him.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you repeat his name?
MR CELE: Magubani.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he the Chairperson of the local ANC branch?
MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his first name?
MR CELE: Immanuel.
CHAIRPERSON: What was his reaction when you told him?
MR CELE: I cannot remember correctly what his response was.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he upset, did he chastise you or did he compliment you on your actions, or was he completely neutral in his reaction?
MR CELE: He did not reprimand us, nor did he commend us. He just listened to what we had to say.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you remember the precise date of the murder? You say it is about June 1993, can you get any closer than that?
MR LAX: I think it is 15 July?
MR CELE: I cannot remember the date correctly?
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got 15 July?
MR LAX: Our investigation report gives the date as the 15th of July 1993. Would you argue with that?
MR CELE: It could be around that same time.
MR LAX: You see, our investigators went and found the docket relating to the death of Mr Zulu and the docket number was 62-7-93. You wouldn't deny that, would you?
MR CELE: As I mentioned before, if that is what is said, then I wouldn't disagree with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, just finally, you said that the deceased ran into his grandmother's house. Was anybody present at the grandmother's house, besides the four of you, that is the deceased and you and your two comrades.
In other words, would there have been any witnesses to this slaying that took place there?
MR CELE: I don't know if there were witnesses who witnessed this murder, but there were people in the house, although the light was out.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever arrested for this, or any of your two comrades who assisted you, were any of the three of you arrested for this crime?
MR CELE: No, I was not arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you flee the area after that, or do you know any reason why you were not arrested?
MR CELE: No, I have never fled the area.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any questions arising Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: No, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, that is the case for the applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: No further evidence Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to make submissions Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE IN ARGUMENT: Yes Mr Chairman, briefly Mr Chairman. The decision whether to grant amnesty or not, will at the end of the day be decided on the facts as presented to the Committee, but I would respectfully submit that the applicant was a very honest man. He was very forthright, unlike the litany of application that have been before the Committee.
He is very impressive.
CHAIRPERSON: As to who the perpetrators were, is that so or was he about to be arrested? Did that prompt him to come, or was it just on his own volition that he has come and made this known and exposed publicly that he was a perpetrator, on his own volition?
MR NGUBANE: It was his own volition, and he has not tried to hide the co-perpetrators, that is the aspect which I ask the members of the Committee to take into account.
Unless there are certain issues which I am required to address, I do not intend repeating what is before the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: You submit that he has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts, and that the killing of Mr Zulu was an act in furtherance of a political objective, arising out of the conflicts of the past?
MR NGUBANE: That is correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: I don't have any argument prepared, except maybe to put it on record that the victims have requested me to inform the Committee members that the deceased was a breadwinner and due to his death, they lost their house and also they don't have a house to stay in right now. I reassured them that they will be referred to the R&R Committee.
I thought I should put it on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have details of the next of kin of the victims, who would qualify for reparation in terms of the Statute?
MS THABETE: Yes, I do Mr Chairman. I do not know whether you would like me to ...
CHAIRPERSON: I think so because if we could get that, because in the event of amnesty being granted, there will be a reference made to the Reparations Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, for consideration for the payment of reparation to the next of kin.
It is our duty in so far as possible, to refer the names of victims and their next of kin, when we hear them in these proceedings, to the Reparations Committee to facilitate them in their work.
MS THABETE: Would you like me to read the names?
CHAIRPERSON: Are there many there?
MS THABETE: No Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so, if I can just get a note of them.
MS THABETE: It is Mr and Mrs Zulu, JM.
CHAIRPERSON: An address?
MS THABETE: I understand right now they have been given a home.
CHAIRPERSON: No, only if you've got a fixed, firm address that we need it.
MR LAX: Just before we finish with you, you have given us the deceased's parents. Was he married, he had children? Did he have children?
Perhaps those matters could be addressed later administratively.
CHAIRPERSON: If you could, Ms Thabete, if you could - in my view I think that we need to refer to the Reparations Committee, would be the next of kin. By that we mean the parents if they are alive, the spouse or spouses if she or they are alive, and the children.
We don't go to cousins and second aunties and grannies. It is just in the first degree and if there were any other persons who were dependent on him, it is not the whole, every relative that there is.
MS THABETE: Can I furnish you with the whole list after I have spoken?
CHAIRPERSON: You can furnish me with a list and also as far as possible, with contact addresses or details, how they could be contacted. Thank you.
MS THABETE: I will do so Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: That then brings us to the end of this hearing.
I would like to thank both Mr Ngubane and Ms Thabete for their assistance that they have given us, not only in this hearing, but the previous one.
It is also the end of the roll for this week in fact, I believe Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: That is so Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: We will then be continuing on Monday?
MS THABETE: Certainly.
CHAIRPERSON: Should we make it for half past nine?
MS THABETE: Half past nine is fine.
CHAIRPERSON: We will now, because we have come to the end of today's proceedings, be adjourning. There hasn't been a matter set down for tomorrow. I believe the reason for that was that initially it was expected that that would be registration day and people would require that day for registration for voting, but in fact, as we all know that had recently been changed, and it wasn't possible to at the short notice, to bring other matters forward.
We will now be adjourning for the continuation of these hearings, there is a number of hearings set down for next week. We will adjourn until next Monday, at the same venue and we will hope to start on that day at half past nine in the morning. Thank you.
MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
