Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start our proceedings, I would just like to introduce the Committee to you. We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni. He is an attorney from Pretoria.

On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the Court, the Hight Court there.

I would at this stage ask the legal representatives to please place themselves on record.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee. My name is John Wills, an attorney from Pietermaritzburg. I am representing Min Radebe, Dr Phillips and Mr Sithole in the proceedings today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabele Thabete for the TRC, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The proceedings will be simultaneously interpreted and in order to benefit from the interpretation, you must be in possession of one of these devices.

The proceedings will be translated into English and Zulu. English is on channel 2 and Zulu is on channel 3. These devices are available from the front here, from the Sound Technician in the front.

We will then be commencing with the application of Mr Radebe. Thank you Mr Radebe.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, just for the convenience of the Committee, all three applicants seated here this morning, will be testifying in English.

CHAIRPERSON: We will actually be dealing with the applications simultaneously then, as one hearing really?

MR WILLS: I would suggest that that would be the correct procedure in the circumstances, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we will be dealing with the applications of Messrs Radebe, Phillips and Sithole. Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, could Mr Radebe be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I just see that we have some legal representatives who have arrived. Perhaps we could just delay that for a while.

We have Mr Wills and Ms Thabete on record. Mr Hewitt would you kindly place yourself on record.

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, I appear for the record, the name is Hewitt, initials J.E. I am senior counsel from the Durban Bar and I am instructed by Mr Falconer of the firm Larson, (indistinct) and Falconer. We have been instructed to represent the Inkatha Freedom Party as an interested party and also a Mrs Abbie Mchunu and our instructions are to oppose the applications for amnesty of two of the applicants, that is Mr Radebe and Mr Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HEWITT: If I may further assist the Committee, with regard to the application of Mr Sithole, it is envisaged that apart from cross-examining Mr Sithole, it is envisaged that we will also be leading evidence of the person who we have mentioned that we represent and we may too, this is unfortunate, we may too be asking, depending on what fruit our cross-examination reveals, we may well after calling Mrs Mchunu, be asking for an adjournment to lead further evidence.

The reason we find ourselves in this situation is because Mrs Mchunu for the first time heard yesterday that this amnesty application was taking place, and as it will be apparent to the members of the Committee, a perusal of the amnesty application by Mr Sithole will indicate that there are no names of any victims mentioned whatsoever, so it is clearly not a fault of the Amnesty Committee or those investigating on their behalf or any employees of the Committee, not notifying any victims, because no victims' names were furnished to them.

On the instructions we have, Mrs Mchunu and possibly others were also victims and for that reason, they were not notified because there was nothing in the papers to indicate any victims should have been notified, but we simply place this on record to explain the situation that we find ourselves in is that at the eleventh hour, Mrs Mchunu finds out that the hearing is taking place today, matters are set in motion where we are then instructed and obviously we have consulted extensively with Mrs Mchunu, but during those consultations it emerged that there may well be other witnesses available who can shed some light on the evidence or the application by Mr Sithole and in order that the full picture be presented to this Committee, it may well be in the interest of the application to be dealt with properly, that an opportunity be afforded to us or we may ask the Committee itself to assist us in this regard, by ensuring that other persons whose names will emerge, be subpoenaed to give evidence at this hearing.

Unfortunately because of the time available to us, this couldn't be arranged today. All we were able to arrange is Mrs Mchunu's presence.

It may well be that the evidence that is available will occupy the time of the Committee for the entire day in any way, so no prejudice as such will be suffered if there is a continuation of the hearing after today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt. Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I call Mr Radebe.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills?

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee. Mr Radebe, you attested to an affidavit in application for amnesty on the 10-05-1997 and attached to that was an appendix, do you confirm the contents of those documents?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I do confirm the contents.

MR WILLS: Can you briefly explain to the Committee why you are applying for amnesty?

MR RADEBE: Well, I think as we are building a new democracy in South Africa, our people and our country need to know the truth. Not to open the old wounds during those difficult, terrible and turbulent times of the early 1990's, so therefore I believe that my testimony here will help our people, especially in kwaZulu Natal in this enormous task of building a new society within the context of a united democratic South Africa.

MR WILLS: Thank you. You were born in Cato Manor in 1953 and you joined the ANC and the associated organisations of the Communist Party and MK during 1976?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us briefly what your involvement in those organisations were after 1976, before your arrest in I believe, 1986?

MR RADEBE: Well, I started working for particularly the underground organisation of the ANC here in Durban and around 1977, I left the country to Tanzania via Swaziland and Mozambique and during that period, before my arrest, I was serving the ANC, the SACP in many capacities.

Amongst others, I was the Deputy Chief Representative of the ANC in Dar-Es-Salaam and I also worked in the International Relations Department of the ANC and later, I worked as one of the operatives based in Lesotho, heading the underground structures of the ANC, but more particularly of the SACP.

During that period, I also underwent military training under the auspices of Umkhonto weSizwe .

MR WILLS: Whereabout did you undergo military training?

MR RADEBE: I underwent military training in Angola.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: It was in 1985.

MR WILLS: You also hold some legal qualifications. I believe you have a B.(indistinct) and a Masters in Law from a German university, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct. I did my B.(indistinct) at the University of Zululand and my Masters degree at Leipzich University in Germany.

MR WILLS: You returned to South Africa from, you returned in 1986, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Indeed, yes.

MR WILLS: What was the purpose of your return?

MR RADEBE: Well, at the time when I was arrested, I was charged in Johannesburg for being a member or a banned organisation, the ANC, and for undergoing military training under Umkhonto weSizwe .

I was charged under the Internal Security Act.

MR WILLS: And you in fact received a prison sentence of 10 years, which was later reduced on appeal, to six years?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And you served that six year?

MR RADEBE: On Robben Island.

MR WILLS: On Robben Island, yes.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, your question to the witness was what was the purpose of his coming back to South Africa. I am afraid, he didn't quite answer that, maybe he just didn't hear the question properly.

MR RADEBE: Well, at that time, as I have indicated in my earlier input, when I was based in Lesotho, I was heading the ANC underground and SACP, so it was one of my functions to link up with underground structures of the SACP in particular.

MR WILLS: Now, in your amnesty application, the actual printed form, which I believe you have a copy of, in front of you - under Section 9(a)(i) when it indicates, you indicate that you are applying for amnesty firstly in respect of all actions I undertook as a member of MK and the ANC and that is under the section where you say 1976 - 1990.

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: My understanding is that the only thing that you are applying for amnesty for in regard to this period, is the conviction under the Internal Security Act for being a member of a banned organisation and for military training, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Precisely.

MR WILLS: So prior to 1990, there are no other events that you are making application for amnesty for?

MR RADEBE: None at all.

MR WILLS: Can you, you went into prison in 1986 and served the time in Robben Island, when were you released?

MR RADEBE: I was released in June 1990 after President Mandela was released in February of 1990 as a process of the release of many political prisoners who were till languishing in South African jails.

MR WILLS: And then, what did you do immediately after your release?

MR RADEBE: After my release I worked as a Projects' Coordinator for the National Association of Democratic Lawyers. In that capacity I was monitoring violence in kwaZulu Natal and also acting to promote peace in all those areas that were ravaged by violence in kwaZulu Natal.

At the same time, I was elected as the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC in Southern Natal. Those were the things that I was doing immediately after me release in 1990.

MR WILLS: It is through your capacity as the Deputy Chairperson of the Southern Natal region of the ANC that you eventually became involved in the establishment of the Self Defence Units, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct. At the time, as the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC, I was responsible for security matters in Southern Natal. Because particularly of my involvement as Projects' Coordinator for the National Association of Democratic Lawyers and witnessing first hand the violence that was (indistinct) here in Southern Natal, that is why I was made responsible for this task of seeing the political establishment of Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, could you just briefly describe the area of Southern Natal in which you were involved, what was your jurisdiction there? Was it down at Port Shepstone, where did it start and where did it go to?

MR RADEBE: The Southern Natal region, in fact if I can describe as it was then called Natal, in terms of the ANC demarcations, we had three regions, Southern Natal, Natal Midlands and Northern Natal.

Southern Natal under whose jurisdiction I was in, stretches from the Tugela down into Port Shepstone and until around Hammarsdale, Inchanga area. That is the area of Southern Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee, Mr Radebe, why it was necessary that SDU's be established?

MR RADEBE: The main reason why Self Defence Units were established, was to counter the violence that was being perpetrated by the Security organs of the State at that time, more particularly the South African Police, the South African Defence Force and all its surrogates who were operating in Southern Natal.

The authority to establish these Self Defence Units, emanated from the policy positions of the ANC and its allies, and if one can just mention a few, that even before 1990, the unbanning of the ANC, there was violence in many parts of Natal as it was then called. So the ANC Headquarters in Lusaka had always took resolutions for the defence of our people, but during this period, we had a National Consultative Conference that took place in 1990 in Johannesburg and a National Conference that took place in Durban.

All these resolutions, empowered the structures of the ANC to establish the people's Self Defence Units.

MR WILLS: And it is your contention that your role was strictly in accordance with these structures and organisational prerogatives?

MR RADEBE: Yes, at all material times, I was acting under the specific instructions and directives of the policy decisions of the ANC as a whole.

MR WILLS: We will get onto the specifics of those at a later stage, but very briefly, what - can you explain to the Committee the role of the communities in the establishment of the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: In fact the communities played a central role in the Self Defence Units, in fact the Self Defence Units were a creation of all those communities who were undergoing severe attacks from the forces and powers that be. So in essence the Self Defence Units were as a result of the communities themselves, deciding that they needed the Self Defence Units.

As an ANC, we were playing a supportive, secondary role in ensuring that those community structures of Self Defence Units are indeed properly empowered, to pursue these defensive capacity.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee what was the role of Umkhonto weSizwe in regard to the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: In terms of the ANC policy resolutions, the role of Umkhonto weSizwe cadres was to ensure that they support these community structures. In more particularly, in training them and also in providing weapons that were going to be used in defence of communities who were under attack.

MR WILLS: Just to get clarity on the point, from the evidence you have given, it seems clear that the SDU's were not established by Umkhonto weSizwe , is that correct?

They were not creations of Umkhonto weSizwe ?

MR RADEBE: That is correct yes. The role that Umkhonto weSizwe played was a supportive role in those areas where communities felt that they needed to defend themselves, in view of the fact that the police and the Defence Force were turning a blind eye whenever communities were attacked and in fact, in many instances it was the Security Forces themselves that were guilty of these attacks against communities.

MR WILLS: Now, I know Mr Sithole is going to give further evidence on this point, but how - can you, are you aware of how in practical terms, an MK cadre on the ground, would get involved with a particular SDU?

MR RADEBE: Precisely, because as I have indicated, even though the Self Defence Units were not the creation of Umkhonto weSizwe per se, but Umkhonto weSizwe played a vital role in supporting these community structures.

As I have indicated here, even from the top leadership of Umkhonto weSizwe , this support was evident.

MR WILLS: You wore a number of caps in the anti-apartheid organisations. You also were directly connected to Umkhonto weSizwe , is that correct?

What was your role in Umkhonto weSizwe in the post-1990 period?

MR RADEBE: My role was that of being a Chairman of the ANC in Southern Natal, and working directly with military headquarters in furtherance of ANC policy positions, particularly in the implementation of supporting capacity to the Self Defence Unit.

MR WILLS: Can you explain in as much detail as you can, what your supportive role was personally?

MR RADEBE: Well, the role that I played personally, started as I have indicated with the positions of the ANC to support the Self Defence Unit.

I was then instructed by the then Chief of Staff of Umkhonto weSizwe, Deputy Commander Chris Hani, to be involved in supporting the establishment of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: What did you do?

MR RADEBE: Exactly what I did, after meeting with Chris Hani, he provided us mainly with weapons that were to be distributed to all those communities where the communities have decided to set up Self Defence Units.

MR WILLS: Right, and you refer to weapons, what type of weapons are you referring to?

MR RADEBE: I am referring to weapons such as AK47's, hand grenades, pistols like Macarov, Tokarev, Stechin.

MR WILLS: Can you explain what your personal involvement was in regard to those weapons?

MR RADEBE: My personal involvement was in the initial setting up of these Self Defence Units, particularly in the arming of the Self Defence Unit. I was involved in the initial stages of procuring these weapons which were delivered to Southern Natal.

Just to describe what exactly happened, these weapons used to come to Southern Natal with cars, we had three vehicles that were used for the distribution of these weapons.

It was a bakkie, it was a Rover and a VW kombi. These cars had secret compartments where these weapons were hidden. What happened is that I got duplicate keys of these cars and plans were made that when a car for example is going to be delivered maybe five o'clock in the afternoon, and then later on, that car would be taken, off load those weapons and then returned later, so there was no direct contact between the person who brought those cars and those weapons and the person who would fetch the vehicle.

That was my initial particular role of getting the keys, duplicate keys and giving them to the person who are instructed to be involved in the operational aspects of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: Where would these weapons come from?

MR RADEBE: Well, I wouldn't know precisely where they came from, but came, they did come.

MR WILLS: From an organisational point of view, where did they come from?

MR RADEBE: Well, it is obvious that originally the ought to have come from somewhere outside the country, but on those specific trips I wouldn't know precisely, but I would assume that they would have been taken from some DLB for us to have access here in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: A DLB referred to as being a Dead Letter Box?

MR RADEBE: Dead Letter Box, yes.

MR WILLS: But what I am trying to extract from you Mr Radebe is that you said that a truck would arrive with weapons and be parked in a particular place. Where would that truck travel from in order to come to I believe you were in Durban at the time?

MR RADEBE: I was in Durban.

MR WILLS: Where would that truck come from, which part of South Africa, or part of the subcontinent?

MR RADEBE: Well, as I have said, I would assume that it would be somewhere in Johannesburg, because the people I was dealing with, were at that time based in Johannesburg.

MR WILLS: At the time you were dealing with this issue, did you make direct contact, or how did you make contact with the people in order that the weapons would be delivered?

MR RADEBE: As I have stated that my first meeting was with Chris Hani, who set this machinery up and later on, I met with Ronnie Kasrils who was also part of the military Headquarters, responsible for this task.

The actual operation, I would assume that that is how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wills is asking Mr Radebe is, this truck comes with a load of firearms and you make the arrangements with the keys, to get it transferred. Once you received the firearms in Durban, how did you dispose of them, or were you involved personally in the disposal of those firearms, to various SDU's in your region?

MR RADEBE: Yes, what happened, as I have said, I had duplicate keys of these cars and those duplicate keys, I handed over to the person who was in charge, which was Mr Sithole here.

CHAIRPERSON: That would go to the local, the person who is going to ultimately use it in his particular SDU?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: If I could just follow up there. How did you know when the vehicles would be coming, or did you just give the keys to Mr Sithole and then the rest of the detail, he had to deal with? That is what I am trying to understand.

MR RADEBE: Initially there had to be physical contact to establish this properly. This is why I had this meeting with Chris Hani and later with Ronnie Kasrils, where I was given these keys which I handed over.

The initial delivery, I knew when it was going to come and then I informed Sithole accordingly. From that time onwards, when the machinery became smoother, I never was involved in subsequent deliveries.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you.

MR WILLS: And subsequently, I believe it was Dr Phillips who became involved in the day to day organisation of the procurement of those arms, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Now I do know.

MR WILLS: Yes, getting on to that point. There is a policy which I believe exists within Umkhonto weSizwe , and that is the policy of need to know. Can you just explain that policy in relation to your operations with the procurement of those arms?

MR RADEBE: There was a special training that many people who were in Umkhonto weSizwe used to undergo, which we used to call MCW, Military Combat Work.

It was basically training in secrecy, how to set up underground structures, how to communicate such that you make sure that the people that are involved in that operation, one section of the operation, does not know what the other is doing, so that we protect the identity of people who are involved in that operation.

There has to be cut off in terms of contact with other people. If one has to take this type of operation, even though I was the political leader responsible and accountable for these Self Defence Units, but I would not know precisely what the person in charge, will be doing in terms of the fulfilment of those tasks.

It was what one may call, you were to know on a need to know basis and there was a principle that we used to say that ask no questions, and you will be told no lies, which is a reflection of this elaborate system of cut off.

MR WILLS: So, do I gather from your evidence that apart from the persons that you dealt with directly, either further up the line or further down the line, you would have no knowledge of those individuals?

MR RADEBE: Indeed.

MR WILLS: So you have indicated that you would contact Mr Sithole in regard to an arrival of a truck containing weapons and how would you communicate with him?

MR RADEBE: I need to explain that Mr Sithole at that time, was the Political Commissar of an MK structure in Southern Natal, so he was identified as a person who need to be the one who is responsible for the operational aspect of the creation of Self Defence Units.

I instructed him to set up the structure, that is how his involvement comes in.

MR WILLS: Just on a practical level, I am just trying to convey through your evidence, Mr Radebe, to the Committee on how this procurement of arms and how the arms got to Southern Natal.

This truck would arrive, you would have duplicate keys. How would you get those keys?

MR RADEBE: How would I get the keys?

MR WILLS: Yes, how did you get the keys?

MR RADEBE: I said that I got the keys earlier on, so I had them in my possession and I handed them over, so he permanently had those keys.

MR WILLS: How would the person who was going to collect the vehicle, how would he know where the vehicle was?

MR RADEBE: Well, I said that initially there had to be that physical contact, so for example, I still remember very well that I was told that that first vehicle was going to be parked at what do you call this next to the old Durban station?

MR WILLS: The Workshop?

MR RADEBE: The Workshop yes.

MR WILLS: Was it the case that a similar parking place would be used on most occasions? Can you tell us what the arrangement was in that regard?

MR RADEBE: Well, I assume that they will not use the same location, I am sure it used to rotate, maybe Workshop, the Wheel, whatever, that the police would not in fact have been suspicious of.

MR WILLS: Do you know how Mr Sithole would know where the weapons or the truck was, the vehicle?

MR RADEBE: Yes, because initially I did tell him, but subsequently he made his own communication with those people, so I am sure when his time comes, he will be able to explain how it happened.

MR WILLS: And then, I take it he would return the duplicate keys to you at a later stage?

MR RADEBE: In fact, I am sure one of those cars, they were impounded by the Security Forces, one of the cars. I have never seen those keys again.

MR WILLS: As regards the training of SDU's, it has become apparent through evidence that has been given to the Committee that certain people were trained in the Transkei, other people got training in the areas where they operated. Do you know anything about that?

MR RADEBE: Well, as a person who was living here in Southern Natal and as Chairman of the ANC, I need to correct maybe the perception that only the Self Defence Unit that the ANC was involved in, were involved in the protection of communities.

In many instances Self Defence Units were a spontaneous creation of the masses of people where violence was. So, I was aware for an example that people on their own accord used to find their own weapons, used to find where to train.

I am generally aware that some of the people used to go to the Transkei. As far as you are concerned, our main priority was to make sure that where our cadres of MK were involved, limited training within the constraints of security had to be undertaken because we were always emphasising the question of discipline on the question of the Self Defence Units where our members were involved.

Yes, indeed I am aware that in some areas MK used to provide some form of training to the people, otherwise it would have been irresponsible for us to allow the distribution of weapons to people who would not know how to operate an AK47 or hand grenade, etc.

MR WILLS: Were you personally involved in that training at all?

MR RADEBE: I was not personally involved in that, but periodically I would get reports that things were happening.

MR WILLS: Just a bit more detail on possibly volumes of firearms, are you aware of the approximate number of firearms that were conveyed into the Southern Natal region during your involvement in this operation.

MR RADEBE: I won't know precisely how many weapons were delivered in Southern Natal, but my guess would be probably plus minus 120 AK's or something like that.

MR WILLS: My understanding from your evidence is that you never physically saw these firearms?

MR RADEBE: No, I never physically saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just while we are on the question of the firearms Mr Radebe, we have heard various applications concerning Self Defence Units and from time to time we hear that communities actually coughed in money to assist in the acquiring of arms.

The arms that you are talking about now, that came in the truck and that were distributed in the manner that you have described, were they sold at all or were they just distributed to SDU's?

MR RADEBE: No, not at all. We never sold those weapons. The point, the Honourable Judge is mentioning is very valid that communities on their own, would find weapons outside what I am describing here.

In fact in some instances they even manufactured their own weapons which they used to call "uxashuno, which were very effective as I was made to believe. But not at all, we never sold any arms, but we are able to account for most of the arms that we distributed.

MR LAX: Just before you go on Mr Wills, Mr Radebe you spoke about approximately 120 AK's. How many hand guns may have come in in the same process, do you have any idea? If you don't that is fine, but if you know?

MR RADEBE: I wouldn't know precisely how many. Why I do know the approximate number, is because there was a time, a time came when we had to retrieve some of those weapons.

I was later informed that quite a number of the weapons that we had received, that were not used, were actually returned back.

MR LAX: Are you able to say how many were returned back?

MR RADEBE: Well, I would just be guessing, I don't want to do that.

MR LAX: No idea of the percentage or whatever?

MR RADEBE: I am sure we must have recovered about 85% or 90% of all the weapons that we initially distributed.

MR LAX: Thank you. The rest having been actually taken by the Security Forces, because we also had some problems.

MR WILLS: Just getting to that aspect there, there came a time when it became, it got closer to the election in 1994 where in the transitional process, MK was being integrated into the South African National Defence Force, together with other armies.

At that stage, I believe that the weapons were recovered in order to go into the arsenal of the South African National Defence Force, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Correct.

MR WILLS: And can you explain how that process occurred in your region?

MR RADEBE: Well, what happened around 1993, especially after, in the process of negotiations within CODESA it became clear that South Africa was moving towards an election in 1994, so there was a process that started which indicated that Umkhonto weSizwe was going to be integrated with the South African Defence Force, to form the South African National Defence Force, so an instruction was received from military Headquarters that we need now to recover the weapons that were under our control, so that they must be taken back in this process of integration.

I duly conveyed that instruction to Sithole and those weapons were recovered and they were sent back.

MR WILLS: It is also I think quite common public knowledge that there were occasions when SDU members acted in circumstances which could not be described as politically motivated or where they committed what may be described as just common crimes, without a political motivation?

Were you ever aware of circumstances such as those, and if so, what did you do about those instances?

MR RADEBE: Well, I was aware that in some instances, some people involved in Self Defence Units, they overstepped their mark.

Where this was brought to our attention, we issued a directive that those people, whoever they may be, must be disarmed. I am aware of instances for example in Port Shepstone, in Umkababa and Chesterville, where some of those comrades who were involved in this, were actually disarmed. They never participated in those.

MR WILLS: Were you personally involved in the what I may loosely describe as the disciplinary processes?

MR RADEBE: No, I was not personally involved, but I was involved at a political level, being the Chairperson of the ANC, if you go to areas and people talk and they tell. So in a political sense, one motivates that people should do something about people who show no discipline in involving in matters like these, but it was an operational matter as I did receive reports, that those people who were directly involved, they were disarmed.

MR WILLS: Now, you have indicated just for detail, you have indicated in Section 10(a) of your statement of your amnesty application, what your political objective was. Can you just elaborate on that?

MR RADEBE: Well, the point I was making there was that at all material times where I was involved, one was acting with a political motive, detected by the circumstances of the time.

Rising to the occasion of our people who were constantly harassed by the police and many of whom were in fact killed during that time. There are many instances where one would go to areas like Umlazi, you will find people being killed, Umkababa, Port Shepstone. In fact around 1992 there was a time where we were burying comrades on a weekly basis.

It was the life that we were leading in the province. But despite all those difficulties, we always acted within the authority and the discipline of the ANC.

MR WILLS: You also say on page 5 of the statement that you attach, Appendix 1 to your affidavit, that you accepted the role of self defence without (indistinct), knowing it was a necessity of the times.

Would you like to elaborate further on that?

MR RADEBE: Well, the point we are making there is that this Self Defence Units in fact was imposed on us, by the inability of the Security Forces that were supposed to protect our people.

Instead of protecting our people, they were the ones that were guilty of atrocities against our people. As a result we had no choice, but to make sure that we assist our people in defending themselves.

I believe that it is a right of anybody in South Africa to defend himself or herself when attacked. That is the background against which we operated as the ANC.

MR WILLS: You also indicate in your supporting documentation, that the - and I am referring to paragraph 21 on page 7 - on page 15 of the bundle for the benefit of the Chairperson, that after the elections, MK was officially disbanded and what happened in relation to the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: Well, also they were disbanded in as much as I have indicated, most of those weapons were recovered, so there was no longer any necessity for the continued existence of Self Defence Units, because now we had a united South African National Defence Force that was more sympathetic to the new cause of our government of 1994.

MR WILLS: Essentially the period that you are referring to the Amnesty Committee, is the period from 1992 up until the point of the election in 1994?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Just before we finalise, what was your dealings with Dr Phillips in regard to the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: Well, as he will be able to testify before this Commission, he also played a communication role, as I now understand but he was working closely with the person in charge here, and the people at Headquarters.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Ms Hewitt, do you have any questions to ask Mr Radebe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, I want to go to page 4 of your application and paragraph 10(a), which my learned friend, Mr Wills, referred you to not so long ago where you state all the operations detailed above, were carried out in accordance with the aims and objectives of the African National Congress.

As a member of Umkhonto weSizwe , my objective was the furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid State with the intention of overthrowing the State and replacing it with a democratic one.

Was that the objective in arming the SDU's, the Self Defence Units?

MR RADEBE: Not at all. What I am referring to here is the pre-1990 period in particular, with my case under the Internal Security Act. This refers specifically to the pre-1990 period.

MR HEWITT: Was there any furtherance of an armed struggle during the period that you are referring to?

MR RADEBE: After, post-1990?

MR HEWITT: Yes?

MR RADEBE: No, you will remember that as the ANC, we took a political decision to suspend armed actions. In so far as your question is concerned, that does not apply.

MR HEWITT: That objective of furthering an armed struggle, played no role whatsoever with the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: And the weaponry was supplied to them for what purpose?

MR RADEBE: For self defence purposes.

MR HEWITT: At no stage was such weaponry intended for any offensive purpose, attack on existing structures or the regime that you were still obviously antagonistic towards?

MR RADEBE: Yes, we always emphasised that the Self Defence Units, have always to pursue or adopt a defensive posture.

MR HEWITT: Now, what was the date when that change in approach came about?

MR RADEBE: As long as Self Defence Units were decided upon by the ANC.

MR HEWITT: All right, when did the furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid State, with a view of overthrowing it, when was that policy no longer the policy?

MR RADEBE: It was no longer a policy when the ANC adopted a position of suspending armed actions.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but it is the date I am specifically interested in?

MR RADEBE: I wouldn't recall the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you know the year more or less Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: It should have been, I think it was a Pretoria Minute, 1990, somewhere there.

MR HEWITT: Was that no longer the intention in 1992?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Sorry, I don't know whether we are on the same wavelength here.

By 1992, had that policy of furthering the armed struggle against the apartheid State with a view to overthrowing it, had that stopped by 1992 and was it simply a Self Defence Protection policy?

MR RADEBE: I think I have answered your question, I did say that our policy on armed struggle was pursued by the ANC and MK until the ANC around 1990, suspended armed action in accordance, I believe, with the Pretoria Minute.

After that, we never pursued an armed struggle in South Africa.

MR HEWITT: All right, if we then revert to periods like 1992, 1993 and 1994, we are not dealing with armed struggle any more as ANC policy.

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: All right, I just want to try and understand where Mr Sithole fits into this whole picture.

You yourself, I gather from the tenner of your evidence Mr Radebe, that you yourself, did not arrange the importation into the country of weaponry?

MR RADEBE: No. I did not.

MR HEWITT: You were stationed in relation to this collection of weaponry for distribution to the SDU's, you would have been stationed in the Southern Natal, Durban area the whole time?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: You yourself, wouldn't go say to the Swaziland border or the Mozambique border, on the assumption that this is where these firearms came from? You yourself wouldn't actually be involved?

MR RADEBE: I told you that the instance where I was involved, was the delivery of weapons that were in a car, that was dropped at the Workshop and as far as I know, Workshop has not moved away from Durban.

MR HEWITT: I am just trying to see how well travelled you were during that period, that is all.

So you basically stayed in the Durban area?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right, and as I understand your role, others obviously brought in the vehicles that had these caches of arms, and you simply knew where the vehicles were going to be parked or arrived at the end stage in Durban, is that right?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Explain to me these keys that you said you had, I think you mentioned duplicate keys?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean explain, do you want a physical description?

MR HEWITT: Were you given keys by somebody?

MR RADEBE: Yes, three duplicate keys, for a bakkie, a van and a kombi.

MR HEWITT: All right, just for those three vehicles?

MR RADEBE: So that whenever they come, somebody must have duplicate keys to open, off load and bring the car back.

MR HEWITT: All right, did you acquire those vehicles yourself initially?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Who would have given you the duplicate keys?

MR RADEBE: As I said, I was given those duplicate keys by Ronnie Kasrils in Johannesburg.

MR HEWITT: Okay, for all three vehicles?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right. Who would notify you where a particular vehicle was?

MR RADEBE: As I said, that my involvement was in initially setting it up, so I only dealt with that, only one delivery.

MR HEWITT: You only ever dealt with one delivery of weapons for intended use by an SDU, once in this entire period?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Pardon?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: I am sorry, I don't quite understand your answer.

MR RADEBE: I am saying no, except that delivery I have mentioned, the first, initial delivery that was done at Workshop.

MR HEWITT: You had nothing to do with that?

MR RADEBE: I had something to do, because I knew that it was coming.

MR LAX: Sorry, it is a bit of a misunderstanding here. What I understand the witness to be saying is that apart from that first delivery, he wasn't involved in any other deliveries.

MR HEWITT: That is what I understood.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so, isn't it Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: Indeed.

MR HEWITT: So it is just the one Workshop delivery if we can call it that, that you were involved in?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: No others?

MR RADEBE: No other.

MR HEWITT: So the only time you ever used these duplicate keys to the vehicles, was on that one occasion?

MR RADEBE: Yes, to hand them over, the keys.

MR HEWITT: All right. Let's just deal with that one occasion. What would you do then in that first occasion, you have the duplicate keys which you got from Kasrils.

MR RADEBE: Yes and I gave it over to Sithole.

MR HEWITT: Who tells you the vehicle is at the Workshop?

MR RADEBE: Ronnie told me when the vehicle ...

MR HEWITT: Ronnie Kasrils tells you that? All right, then who do you go to after that?

MR RADEBE: So you will ask this gentleman, my comrade here.

MR HEWITT: Sitting on your right, Mr Sithole?

MR RADEBE: Not that he is on my right politically.

MR HEWITT: No obviously, we are talking about his physical position today in relation to you?

Mr Sithole sitting on your right hand side today?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: So you would then do what? You would give the keys to him?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I gave him the keys, yes.

MR HEWITT: This is just in this one incident?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And then he presumably would go to the Workshop and do what was necessary at that end?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right, did you ever have any other dealings with Mr Sithole apart from this particular incident, in relation to weaponry?

MR RADEBE: As I said, we instructed Mr Sithole to be the one responsible for the operational aspects of the Self Defence Unit in Southern Natal.

That was a decision that we took as the political leadership of Southern Natal.

MR HEWITT: What does that actually mean Mr Radebe, that he would distribute the weapons to the SDU's and train them or what, I don't understand what his job is or was?

MR RADEBE: His job simply put was to make sure that in accordance with the policies of the ANC, we as the ANC and MK, we need to play this supportive role in all those communities that were under fire.

MR HEWITT: Mr Sithole, as far as you know, he was not ever a person who would go and collect the firearms from one of our borders or did you understand that he did that?

MR RADEBE: I am unaware that Mr Sithole ever went to the borders to collect firearms. If you have information, you can tell us.

MR HEWITT: No, I am just asking you if it came to your attention that that was so?

MR RADEBE: It never came to my attention that Mr Sithole went to the borders.

MR HEWITT: After the Workshop incident, if we can refer to it as that, did you have any further dealings with Mr Sithole after that?

MR RADEBE: Well, as I said your question is repeated here, I instructed Sithole to form these structures, so at all material times, I was politically responsible for the actions that they were taking. He would report to me from time to time about the developments of the implementation of policy positions of the ANC.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but did that mean that he was now the person who had the duplicate keys all the time?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: That is what I am trying to find out.

MR RADEBE: Because I handed them over to him.

MR HEWITT: You dropped out of the picture as being the holder of the duplicate keys?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And Mr Sithole became the person who had the duplicate keys?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: So, did you then on your version totally drop out of the picture as being part of the chain whereby weapons coming from let's assume outside the country, were distributed to these SDU's?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I was not involved.

MR HEWITT: You dropped totally out of the chain?

MR RADEBE: Indeed.

MR HEWITT: But as far as you understood it, Mr Sithole remained an essential link in that chain for distribution of weapons?

MR RADEBE: Yes, because we appointed him to be in charge of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal, obviously he continued that role because he never resigned.

MR HEWITT: Okay, no I just want to know to what extent you continued to be involved or dropped out and what role Mr Sithole played thereafter.

Now, did you at no stage ever see the weapons that were arriving for use by the SDU's?

MR RADEBE: I never saw the weapons physically.

MR HEWITT: Were you told what weapons would be arriving?

MR RADEBE: I have already answered that question that in my knowledge the weapons were AK47, hand grenades, etc.

MR HEWITT: What about rocket launchers?

MR RADEBE: Well, I am unaware of the rocket launchers except when I heard that some comrades were arrested in Golela and there were some rocket launchers in that impounding of weapons.

Previous to that, I am unaware.

MR HEWITT: You, yourself, would you regard rocket launchers as the kind of weapon necessary for self defence or self protection by SDU's?

MR RADEBE: Well, it is debatable, it is possible, it could be defensive if one takes into account the might of the then South African Defence Force, they were having armoured vehicles that were roaming our townships and so on, so it could be defensive if looked against the superiority of the then Defence Force in South Africa.

MR HEWITT: All right, what I am trying to simply establish is that having regard to your fairly high position in the organisation at the time, rocket launchers according to you, would have been the kind of weapon that would have been given to the SDU's for self protection purposes? You didn't see anything inconsistent or incongruous or contradictory about a rocket launcher being for self defence purposes, that is what I am trying to establish?

MR RADEBE: I was never informed at any stage that there were any rocket launchers to be given to Self Defence Units.

MR HEWITT: No, but I am asking you what your view at the time would have been. Would you then have regarded a rocket launcher as being the kind of thing not necessary for self defence or the kind of weapon that would be necessary for self defence?

MR RADEBE: I said normally that would not be the case, but when you look at the type of weapons that the then Defence Force was having, like armoured vehicles, in those circumstances where the Defence Force was coming to terrorise the township with the type of weapon, then probably the rocket launcher could be a defensive weapon.

MR HEWITT: So, I know this is somewhat hypothetical but had you peeked into the boot of the Workshop delivery and seen rocket launchers there as well, would you have been surprised by that for Self Defence Unit purposes, or would you have thought no, this is a legitimate kind of thing for self defence purposes?

MR RADEBE: Well as you have correctly pointed out, it is a hypothetical question indeed, because at no stage did we ever distribute any rocket launchers for Self Defence Units.

MR HEWITT: You know that as a fact?

MR RADEBE: I know that as a fact, yes.

MR HEWITT: Can I take it from that answer that because rocket launchers and rockets obviously to go with the rocket launchers, were never distributed by the ANC to Self Defence Units, presumably that reflected an attitude by the ANC that these weren't the kind of weapons needed for self defence?

MR RADEBE: I am unaware of any Self Defence Units that were given rocket launchers.

MR HEWITT: No, that is not quite an answer to my question. Were the Self Defence Units as far as you are concerned, never given such weaponry because such weaponry was not regarded as the kind of weaponry necessary for self defence?

MR RADEBE: I think I have already answered your question that I am unaware of any Self Defence Units that were given rocket launchers.

MR HEWITT: All right, you mentioned Golela as it is pronounced by some people. What do you know about the arms cache at Golela?

MR RADEBE: What I know about that is what I read in the papers and that there was comrades who were arrested there at Golela.

MR HEWITT: Well, Mr Sithole sitting on your right hand side, was he arrested there?

MR RADEBE: Not at all.

MR HEWITT: Was he not arrested at Golela?

MR RADEBE: No, he was never arrested at Golela.

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look at page 33 of the papers Mr Hewitt, it says - Mr Sithole says in January I was arrested in Durban, the second paragraph from the top.

MR HEWITT: Yes, that is correct. I know that, but I am asking this witness about it.

He says he refers to the comrades being arrested at Golela and then he refers to his arrest in Durban further on. I am aware of that, but I am simply asking this particular applicant about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he wasn't. Then you asked him again.

MR HEWITT: You are saying yourself, that he was not arrested in Golela?

MR RADEBE: No, he was not.

MR HEWITT: All right. Do you know whether Mr Sithole was ever incarcerated in Middelburg?

MR RADEBE: I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in Middelburg?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that I know because I actually went there to see them.

MR HEWITT: Is it correct that at Middelburg, Sithole whom we referred to, the other applicant in the case, one Nkubezi and one Makoba were detained at Middelburg?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I saw all of them there, I went there with Krappies Engelbrecht.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

MR RADEBE: With the then General of the Defence, Krappies Engelbrecht.

MR HEWITT: Right, is it correct that in fact an ANC delegation went to visit the gentlemen that I have now referred to?

MR RADEBE: I was in that delegation.

MR HEWITT: It was?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: In that delegation was Matthew Phosa, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: It was Matthew Phosa, General Siphiwe Nyanda, Mo Shake, Bekha Shezi and myself.

MR HEWITT: That is Siphiwe Nyanda is it?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Siphiwe, forgive my pronunciation, Ngculu?

MR RADEBE: Come again?

MR HEWITT: Ngculu, being described as Deputy Chief of Staff, based Transkei Eastern Cape, does that name ring a bell?

MR RADEBE: Oh yes, yes.

MR HEWITT: Was he also - do you confirm he also was part of the delegation?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I think so.

MR HEWITT: Yourself and Mo Shake?

MR RADEBE: Mo Shake, yes.

MR HEWITT: All right. Was Mr Sithole in fact and those other people that we have mentioned, that is Makoba and Nkubezi, were they under arrest in connection with this arms cache at Golela?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Were they ever charged?

MR RADEBE: Yes, they were charged.

MR HEWITT: Were the charges pursued or were they dropped?

MR RADEBE: It was pursued, because I think they appeared in court, but the case I think, even though my facts are no longer as accurate, but my understanding is that the charges were dropped or whatever, but he is here, he will explain.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but the point is that your meeting with him, or the delegation that you were part of at Middelburg, was that a view to possibly getting the charges withdrawn?

MR RADEBE: No, our purpose was to find out what happened.

MR HEWITT: Okay. Did you establish that the arms cache in fact that was found at Golela consisted of the kind of weapons that I am talking about, rocket launchers, rockets, and fairly heavy armourment like the ones that we have been talking about?

MR RADEBE: That is common knowledge.

MR HEWITT: Do you confirm that?

MR RADEBE: I won't know the details, but I know that there were weapons that were found there, that is why they were arrested in the first place.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but the weapons that were found, were things like rocket launchers and rockets, that is what I am asking you to confirm?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I think I remember there were some rocket launchers, yes.

MR HEWITT: They were? Okay. Did you ever receive instructions from Siphiwe Nyanda yourself?

MR RADEBE: Come again.

MR HEWITT: Did you ever receive instruction about ANC operations from Siphiwe Nyanda, the present Chief of the Army?

MR RADEBE: No, I said my instructions came from Chris Hani.

MR HEWITT: I want to show you for your comment and unfortunately I don't have any copies at this stage, but during the adjournment we can have copies made so that this can be a document on record, if I could just show you this document at this stage, we will have copies made later on.

If I could just read the contents of this document into the record, it is on a African National Congress letterhead. It is addressed to S/Natal REC, what would that mean? Southern Natal presumably, REC, what would that be?

MR RADEBE: Regional Executive Committee, I suspect.

MR HEWITT: Attention Chairperson/Regional Secretary. Would that be you?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Let me give you the date, it might help. Date 4th of September 1992. Would that be your position on the 4th of September 1992?

MR RADEBE: I was Chairman of the ANC, Southern Natal.

MR HEWITT: Right. If it is sent by Siphiwe Nyanda, Chief of Staff and the message is MHQ would like to inform you that it has been approved that the following comrades in your area will be functioning on a full time basis for MK regional structure and salaried.

And then the names given are, I think it is an abbreviation for comrades, the comrades are Gaya Numalo, Sipho Sithole, Cheeky Truto and Mavivi Ngubezi.

Would you have a look at this document please?

MR RADEBE: It is not necessary, you have read it.

MR HEWITT: But would that have come to your, do you recall it?

MR RADEBE: I will hand it over to the MK, if he is referring to MK, it could have been handed over to the MK structure.

MR HEWITT: Attention Chairperson/Regional Secretary, would that not have come to you?

MR RADEBE: It would have come to me, but I would have referred it to the people you are saying it was directed to in the first instance.

MR HEWITT: What I am interested in, as I have indicated to you, it was sent by Siphiwe Nyanda. Did you receive documents addressed to you which you handed over?

MR RADEBE: Well, if it was addressed to me, I might have seen it. I don't know why you are making a mountain out of this moth (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: What are we getting at here Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Are you saying this wouldn't have been addressed to you?

MR RADEBE: No, I am saying if it was addressed to the Chair and Secretary, obviously I might have seen it and passed it over to the people concerned.

MR HEWITT: Thank you, all right. Just have a look at it Mr Radebe.

MR RADEBE: Okay. Well, yes, but what are you ...

MR HEWITT: I just want to know whether in the course of your position, you would have received directions or instructions, written or otherwise from Siphiwe Nyanda?

CHAIRPERSON: That sounds from the, the contents that you have read out, just sounds like a relaying of information, it is not an instruction or a directive.

MR HEWITT: All I am trying to establish is, did you receive information from the present Chief of the Army, Siphiwe or instructions or relaying of information?

MR RADEBE: For the purposes of Self Defence Units?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

MR RADEBE: No, I have never, I have said it. I can say it again, I never. I received instructions from Chris Hani as I have indicated.

MR HEWITT: So Nyanda didn't have anything to do with that at all?

MR RADEBE: Nothing, as far as I am aware.

MR HEWITT: All right. This particular direction or memo or whatever one calls it, would that have nothing to do with SDU's?

MR RADEBE: Nothing at all. The names of those comrades who are referred to, were members of MK Southern Natal command, which was a legal entity as Umkhonto weSizwe was unbanned on the 2nd of February 1990.

They had legal authority to operate like any other military structure, like the SADF at that time. There is nothing sinister about that.

MR HEWITT: I am not suggesting that, I am just trying to get clarity on that, so that we have a complete picture.

MR RADEBE: That talks about that it must be paid, that they are full time?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

MR RADEBE: That is how I understand that.

MR HEWITT: So Mr Sipho Sithole, the gentleman sitting next to you on your right, he was then functioning on a full time basis for MK and salaried at the time?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Just bear with me Mr Chairman. Just one further point Mr Radebe, the person Thami Mhlomi, did you ever come into contact with him during your various functions?

MR RADEBE: I know him very well, he was the Secretary of COSATU in Natal and now he is a member of the Provincial Legislature.

MR HEWITT: Was he involved in any way in picking up weaponry or in distributing it for SDU purposes or any other purposes?

MR RADEBE: I don't know, I think you should ask him.

MR HEWITT: No, I am asking you, in your position, whether in fact you ever had dealings with him, that is all.

MR RADEBE: No, I never. I dealt with my comrade here on my right.

MR HEWITT: Never Mr Thami Mhlomi?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: At no stage?

MR RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, how soon after your return were you arrested, in 1986?

MR RADEBE: I was arrested on the 6th of April 1986.

MS THABETE: When did you return?

MR RADEBE: I was on arrested on the same day.

MS THABETE: On the same day, okay. Immediately after your release in 1990, you have stated in front of us that you monitored violence and you tried to promote peace in KZN. How did you go about doing this?

MR RADEBE: What I did, I was employed by the National Association of Democratic Lawyers. It was the policy of the broad democratic movement at the time that they should pursue peace so that we can be able to have a peaceful political activity in kwaZulu Natal.

What I did was to promote peace wherever there was violence. We also interacted with communities, we even held various workshops, even on people's courts, so that we changed this whole paradigm of kangaroo courts, so that people must be able to gear towards this transition period.

I also during the time participated in many peace initiatives between the ANC and the IFP, starting in 1990 when I was here in Southern Natal, I was one of those people who were at the forefront of the signing of the Royal Peace Accord of January 1991 and also I was a representative of the ANC in the formation of the National Peace Accord that took place in Johannesburg. It was the 15th of September 1991.

All these initiatives were aimed at stabilising the region of Natal and also making sure that our people must, even if they differ politically, they must not resort to violence.

MS THABETE: Okay, you said you even held workshops on people's courts in communities. Can you mention a few communities that you actually went to?

MR RADEBE: Well, we had workshops in many areas. I can recall Umkababa, we had various workshops there in Port Shepstone, kwaMashu, Ndwedwe, we even had a very big workshop at the University of Natal, where we dealt extensively with the issue of people's courts.

MS THABETE: Okay. In the Self Defence Units in the communities, did you have MK cadres that were responsible for seeing that the whole defence unit situation was in place?

MR RADEBE: Yes, we actually made a political call to all those comrades who were members of Umkhonto weSizwe , wherever they are. If communities are under attack and the communities decide to form Self Defence Units, that they must support those initiatives and play a supportive role in training and also in arming those units.

But at all times, these structures as I have repeatedly pointed out, were community structures who were playing a supportive role to those initiatives.

MS THABETE: Okay, in the MK cadres carrying out the supportive role in the communities, did you specify what authority they must have and the boundaries as well of how far they could engage in that authority?

MR RADEBE: Well, MK cadres who found themselves in those communities, always acted within the political structure and guidance of those community structures, so they were not imposing themselves on those communities.

They were part and parcel of the members of those various communities. They did not give themselves authority of being a know all, but they were part of those communities.

MS THABETE: What I am actually asking as well is, maybe let me make an illustration of this point, we have had applicants coming to in front of the Committee saying that, MK cadres saying that well, the communities came to me, they would say they had information about somebody, that somebody was a police informer or they were told by the community that somebody was acting against the ANC in the community.

Would it be in order for such MK cadres to make a decision by themselves to assassinate such people in the community?

MR RADEBE: Well, as I have pointed out, MK had no other specific instructions other than to act within the ambit of those community structures where Self Defence Units took place.

If those were the instructions of the community, that means that MK cadre was acting within the authority of that community.

MS THABETE: Okay, so in a situation where let's say the community didn't say anything to the cadre, but that cadre saw fit that somebody had to be assassinated, wouldn't he have to consult maybe with your region before he made such a decision?

MR RADEBE: No, not at all.

MS THABETE: He had the right to just make such a decision and carry it out?

MR RADEBE: As part of that community, but there won't be any instruction from the leadership of the ANC or MK do this or do that.

MR LAX: I think just to clarify this, the question is really where the person didn't have the authority of the community, they hadn't consulted the community at all and we have heard one or two instances to that effect, across the political spectrum, but let's deal with MK cadres at this instance.

An MK cadre situates himself or get situated in a particular community, he may have been busy setting up an SDU structure in that community, he notices a problem in that area. Without consulting anybody, he simply goes and assassinates somebody. Would that have been appropriate conduct from an MK cadre in the circumstances?

MR RADEBE: Well, I think each case must be looked in accordance with its own merits, so if under these circumstances a reasonable community would have acted in the same way, I think the reasonable man test should apply.

I think if a similar person under these circumstances would have done the same within the circumstances, then it could be justified.

But the point I was trying to make, is that there were no specific instructions that were given exclusively to MK to do this or that. They always have to see themselves as part of that community structures.

MR LAX: The thrust of my question is really that it would have been extraordinary circumstances that would have entailed somebody acting without informing communities or seeking guidance from the community structures that they were part of?

MR RADEBE: In a practical situation I would guess because I don't know where you come from, but living in Natal of the time, this place was in flames.

As I have indicated, almost every Saturday I used to bury comrades, so if people are under severe attack, they will do things that normally would not have been done. I would think that there are many things that happened in Natal which many of us would like to forget, but it was the reality of the time that people were forced with. Extraordinary circumstances were imposed upon them, so they did things that were not that normal.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETE: When you established the SDU's, did you foresee the intervention of a criminal element in the communities?

MR RADEBE: I never foresaw that, but as it transpired, some people who were claiming to be SDU's, were sheer criminals. Where we were involved as ANC an MK, whenever those excesses took place, we immediately took steps to discipline those comrades and more particularly to disarm them.

It is possible that others, as we can see that in many instances, communities used to buy the arms. Where they bought them from, I wouldn't know. Others were trafficking in arms we were made to believe in this region.

MS THABETE: Actually that was my next question to you. In your evidence earlier on you had said that if you did discover that there were people who were criminals but using the SDU's, you would disarm them. Were there any other disciplinary measures taken against such people besides disarming them?

MR RADEBE: That was the most appropriate disciplinary form. If you disarm a person, I think it was adequate for our purposes, because neither would we report that to the police. The police being the very same people who were the cause of our troubles in kwaZulu Natal.

MS THABETE: So in essence you are saying there were no other disciplinary measures you adopted, besides disarming them?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that was the main form of discipline.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?

MS THABETE: Yes, if you would bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be an opportune time to take the tea adjournment?

MS THABETE: I've just got three more questions, then that is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MS THABETE: On page 14 of the bundle, of your application ...

MR RADEBE: I don't have page 14.

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 6 of your attachment to the application, the appendix, page 6.

MR RADEBE: Okay.

MS THABETE: You talk about a decision that was taken to retrieve as many weapons as possible. Who took that decision?

MR RADEBE: That decision was taken by military Headquarters when the process of reconciliation and the merger with the Defence Force was taken, so that we don't leave a lot of arms in the hands of the people who now had a Defence Force who was now going to look after the interest of our people.

That decision we received from military Headquarters and it was carried out successfully in my opinion.

MS THABETE: And then my last question, on page 7 of your application, paragraph 20, you talk about the introduction of better forms of policing that were introduced in the province to try and curtail violence and deal with violence. Can you give us a few examples?

MR RADEBE: Well, I must say despite the fact that the police and the army were horrible against our people, but there were individuals within those forces who were very sympathetic to our cause.

I can mention for an example Colonel Lawrence who was ever ready to assist us whenever violence broke out, so there was a section within the police and the army that were prepared to assist our people, but the majority unfortunately were on the other side of destruction and harassment of our people.

MS THABETE: Okay, my last question, you say you received reports on events that were happening in the communities. Can you just mention a few maybe where people were injured or people died?

MR RADEBE: Can you repeat the question, I am sorry.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you say that you would get reports from the communities of what was happening with the

SDU's, so my question to you is would you give like specific examples of reports that you would get where people were injured, like specific examples?

MR RADEBE: I wouldn't have specific examples, but I do know for example that in Port Shepstone there was a time when there were problems there and we had to address a meeting there with John Kadimeng and Harry Gwala where some people who were claiming to be Self Defence Units, were not doing proper things.

I can recall that particular incident.

MS THABETE: Actually I was asking about reports of incidents that had occurred, where people maybe were killed or injured?

MR RADEBE: Oh, from the Self Defence Units?

MS THABETE: Yes.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I am sure Sithole will indicate this in his submission. There were instances where Self Defence Units were involved in combat clashes with the Security Police, places like Umlazi, kwaMashu, etc.

MS THABETE: You don't remember any specific incidents?

MR RADEBE: No, I can't remember, because I was not involved in the operational aspects, you see.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will take a short tea

adjournment now.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Radebe, the evidence you have given so far, in relation to the role that Mr Sithole had, was that Mr Sithole was responsible for the practical implication of things on the ground, as regards the operations of the SDU's, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: In your position, did you have personal knowledge of what exactly Mr Sithole was doing?

MR RADEBE: I did not have personal information of what he was doing, based on the understanding that he is a highly trained person, that I knew personally and also we trusted that his judgement, whatever he did, would be in accordance with his own training as a person, but above all understanding the policy of the ANC and the implications of the involvement of MK.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, you briefly indicated in answer to a question by my colleague, Ms Thabete, that things were quite bad in Natal.

I think it is quite important to just emphasise that. Can you give us more detail about what the conditions were like in Southern Natal at the time you were put in this position where there was a necessity of Self Defence Units to be established?

MR RADEBE: I think I lack the words of a poet to describe the difficult circumstances under which our people used to live here.

In short our people were victims of a ruthless war of attrition against them. As I indicated almost on a daily basis, I used to bury comrades, I used to get phones of attacks by the police. Places like Umkababa, Port Shepstone, massacres of people at Umlazi.

At one point I remember very well in 1992, there were about 13 of our people who were killed at Umlazi. They were killed when they wanted, we wanted to bury those people. The local authority of Umlazi refused permission for us to bury our people.

We even went to the Supreme Court for a mandamus application which was rejected by the Supreme Court. We had to make a demonstration with 13 dummy coffins in the street of Durban, in West Street. You will go to areas like Inanda, you will find bodies of comrades laying down, you will communicate with the police, the Defence Force. They totally had no interest, except as I indicated in my evidence, one Colonel Lawrence who was willing to go the extra mile in trying to resolve the situation.

It was really a horrible situation to live in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, there is no further re-examination.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask Mr Radebe?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, just a few questions Mr Chairperson. Mr Radebe, these SDU's were established to protect specific communities aligned to any specific political party or was it just generally communities which were under attack?

MR RADEBE: In general these Self Defence Units were established in all those areas which were under attack.

Unfortunately all those areas that were constantly under attack, were areas which were generally supportive of the ANC and the democratic movement in general. So in a sense, almost all those areas were areas which were sympathetic to the ANC. In fact, it is a result that we even gained an impression that the Security Forces were not keen to assist us when (indistinct), in as much as in many of those instances, the police were in the forefront of atrocities against our people.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it possible to say how many SDU's were established in the region where you were the Chairperson of the ANC?

MR RADEBE: As I indicated, SDU's were a spontaneous

creation of the masses of people whenever there was violence in those areas, so I am unable to say with certainty how many of those SDU's were formed.

But in almost all the areas that were inflicted by violence, you will find SDU's mushrooming there.

CHAIRPERSON: It is also correct, sometimes you've got more than one SDU in a particular area?

MR RADEBE: Yes, it is possible.

MR SIBANYONI: Even those SDU's which were not established by the ANC, let's say it was spontaneous response from the community, your structures were responsible, in other words, they were responsible to either give training to them or any supportive, to give any support?

MR RADEBE: Yes, whenever our especially MK comrades who were in those communities, then they would play that supportive role, but at all times these SDU's were community structures, whether MK was there or not, those communities would find ways of defending themselves.

I indicated for example that they even manufactured their own weapons which they used to call "uxashu", which is a reflection of this community involvement in the establishment of SDU's.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, the SDU's were sanctioned by the ANC, in other words they were established as a result of resolutions taken by the ANC. Why do you deem it necessary to deem it necessary for establishing SDU's?

MR RADEBE: The first point, it is true, it is the ANC as a political leader of the majority of South Africans took it upon itself, a responsibility that we cannot remain unmoved in the face of a total onslaught against ANC supporting communities, so as a national liberation movement, I believe it was a correct decision by the ANC to support the creation of the Self Defence Unit.

As in all conflicts, people get injured, people get killed, in as much as in retrospect we never intended that by our actions, those consequences will ensue.

That is why it is a matter of record that as an ANC we regret in terms of all the things that has happened, but the point however, also is to also pay special tribute to all those comrades and people who stood up in the face of this total onslaught in defence of our people, in defence of our country.

I believe that they created an embryo of the formation of the new democratic society.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Just to pick up on an aspect that Mr Sibanyoni raised with you and that was existing or spontaneous SDU's. It is a pretty well known fact that the political violence in this province, preceded 1990 by many years and that in many, many communities there were existing defence structures already by the time the ANC was unbanned and by the time it then endorsed the need for defence.

What steps did you say as a political leader of that time, a person carrying political accountability if you like, take to ensure that those existing structures came under the ambit of the general policy directions and so on?

MR RADEBE: Firstly it is true that prior to 1990, already there were embryo's of people Self Defence Units in many areas, especially here in kwaZulu Natal, so what the ANC did, it took advantage of the conditions of legality to form this open structure that were openly accountable to the communities to which they belonged.

But as an organisation we took political responsibility of ensuring that whenever our people of the ANC or Umkhonto weSizwe were involved, we need to ensure that we do these things in a politically responsible manner, taking moral responsibility for our own actions.

That is why whenever we participated in the Self Defence Unit, we always emphasise the question of discipline and accountability to the structures to which they belong. In that sense, we did as a political leadership of the ANC, within the constraints of the difficulty of the times, to assist in ensuring that those Defence Units that our people are involved, are as disciplined and as accountable as it is possible.

MR LAX: Just one last question, you had been asked this question before. It relates to, you spoke about disarming people who stepped out of line, and you said that in the main, that was the main form of discipline that you applied. What I am really interested in is what other forms of discipline as far as you are aware, if you are not aware of them, then that is fine, they may have happened beyond your ken, so to speak, but if there are other forms of discipline that you are aware of, we are just interested to know how was that applied, besides disarming people?

MR RADEBE: Well, that was the main form of discipline that I am aware of that they were disarmed and in many instances where they were members of MK, there was a distance that was adopted by MK vis-à-vis those comrades or former comrades were involved in such activities.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Radebe, you said that in 1985 you underwent military training in Angola. Was that a comprehensive military training that you underwent, could you give us just some details as to the duration of your training and as well as what you were trained in, I presume it was the use of firearms, guerilla warfare tactics, that sort of thing?

MR RADEBE: I underwent special training for a period of about four months, military tactics, military engineering, military combat work, the use of firearms, political education obviously, physical training sometimes six hours a day, sometimes it sounds ridiculous, but we used to train for almost six hours a day.

Those were the types of focus training that I underwent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Committee?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Just one brief question, thank you Mr Chairman. Committee member, Mr Lax, asked you about discipline.

The people who were responsible of serious breaches of the policies when acting as SDU members, were those people ever expelled from the organisation?

MR RADEBE: Yes, there are many who found themselves outside the organisation because of their conduct.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions arising?

MR HEWITT: I have no questions arising, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabete, any questions arising?

MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Radebe, that concludes your testimony.

MR RADEBE: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, I did indicate to the Committee members in chambers, that I would require a short adjournment before we go onto the next applicant.

I would request that at this stage, I don't think that I would need longer than 15 minutes. Mr Chairperson, in addition I would like to request that because of Mr Radebe's schedule, if he could actually be excused at this stage, I don't think it is necessary for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there any objection to Mr Radebe being excused?

MR HEWITT: No, my learned friend and I have already discussed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Radebe, we understand that you have a tight schedule and you are excused from further attendance, but you are quite free to stay as long as you like and listen to the proceedings. You are an applicant after all and you are entitled to be here, in fact you should be here, but you have given your evidence, so in the circumstances, you may leave whenever you wish.

We will take a short adjournment to enable Mr Wills to have a brief consultation with his next witness.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?