Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, we are in your hands.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson, I would now like to call Roy Cele, the next applicant. Roy Cele seeks amnesty for public violence, the assault on Dudu Ngcobo and the murder of Mzibeni Amos Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Roy Cele, are you prepared to take the oath?

ROY BONGUMUSA CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated, you have been sworn in. Mr Molohlanye, I see that we have again an Exhibit which is the supplementary affidavit of Mr Roy Cele. Do you wish to hand this up as an Exhibit and it will be Exhibit B?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Correctly so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, do you have a copy of your affidavit that has been handed up to us as Exhibit B? Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No Your Honour, I still have to give him one. We are not short, I am now perplexed by the situation because I tried to make enough copies, but now I don't know what happened to it. I apologise for that waste of time.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) Mr Cele, is that the affidavit that you have attested on the 16th of - when was this attested to, you don't have a date here?

MR MOLOHLANYE: It was attested to today, I am sorry to have not put the date, today.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) I see here you have it as an affidavit, this is in fact a statement?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I would like to apologise on that point, I met the other members of the Committee and then I alluded to them that they have not been commissioned and we will just call them statements, not affidavits as they appear.

CHAIRPERSON: You should have proceeded I think, to simply scratch out affidavit, just indicate a statement and I hope the record will also indicate in respect of Exhibit A, that Exhibit is not an affidavit, but a statement. Mr Cele, this is the statement that you have signed this morning?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are familiar with the contents contained in the statement?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I am.

CHAIRPERSON: You have read and you understand what is contained therein?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just make sure, having read and understand, do you confirm all the contents of that statement, is the statement correct?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOHLANYE: For the record Mr Cele, can you please give us your full names?

MR R.B. CELE: Roy Bongumusa Cele.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You were a member of the ANC, weren't you Mr Cele?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please briefly give us the history of your area, how was it like?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, it would appear that we are dealing with incidents that are quite related to the ones already testified to be Mr Thulani Percival Cele. With regard to the history of Manyaseni, we are now quite familiar with that, he doesn't need to lead that kind of evidence. You may proceed directly to the incident concerned.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee wishes. The day of the incident is contained in paragraph 9 of the statement, Exhibit B. Mr Cele, can you tell the Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989?

MR MALAN: Aren't you jumping it now? Didn't you say he is also applying for the public violence and for the assault on Dudu Ngcobo which is dealt with in paragraph, at least the preceding paragraphs? I don't think it is necessary for him to lead all the evidence again, if you want to refer him to the first applicant's evidence and ask whether he is in agreement with that, you can then deal with it on that basis.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Honourable Member. Roy, were you present at the meeting where a decision was taken to go and fetch the people at Mr Amos Cele?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was present at that meeting.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Is it correct that you went from Mr Muandla's house to Cele's house?

MR R.B. CELE: That is correct.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What role did you play when you arrived at Amos Cele's house?

MR R.B. CELE: When we arrived at Mr Cele, we took everybody who had been present in the house and proceeded to the "People's Court" in Gangala.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you take the women people too?

MR R.B. CELE: In fact the women requested ourselves that they should also go, but we had gone there with the intention of removing the people from Umlazi.

MR MALAN: Do you know why they requested to come along, to be taken along?

MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot be certain, I think they wanted to know or find out what was going to happen to these people.

MR MALAN: Did they agree that these people were to be taken away or did they resist? Did they advise you not to take the people?

MR R.B. CELE: They tried to resist, but because of a large number of people who were present, they did not succeed.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. We understand that questions were asked from these people at Gangala. Did you ask any questions?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did ask a question.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please inform the Committee?

MR R.B. CELE: I asked them if they were aware of what channels they were supposed to follow as people who had come from one area, entering another area. I discovered that they did not have any information with regards thereto.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened after these people were questioned?

MR MALAN: Sorry, won't you just follow that up and make it clear to us, what channels are we talking about?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Honourable Member. To repeat the question, your response was that the people, those from Umlazi, you asked them what channels or how they came to your area and then you discovered that they did not have any channels in the area, is that so?

MR MALAN: No, the question was did you ask questions, he said yes, you said please inform the Committee and he said I asked them whether they were aware of the channels when entering one area from another and discovered that they did not have any information. Maybe I should follow this up. What channels are you referring to Mr Cele?

MR R.B. CELE: As they were coming from a different area, Umlazi, they were supposed to communicate with the people who were leaders in the area.

MR MALAN: Which people are you talking about?

MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to these people from Umlazi.

MR MALAN: Who were the leaders that they should communicate with and how should they do it? Tell us about these channels of communication that you talk about.

MR R.B. CELE: I am trying to explain that as people who had come for a specific reason, they were supposed to contact the leaders in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: How would they have known what channels to follow, were these channels public knowledge? How did you expect them to know that there were certain channels that had to be followed in your area?

MR R.B. CELE: If they were ANC people, they would have known because everybody in the ANC knew that if you move from an area to another, that is how you communicate through those channels.

CHAIRPERSON: If they were there for their own personal problems and not for ANC related activities, would they still have been expected to have known about those channels? Suppose they were not even affiliated to the ANC at all?

MR R.B. CELE: What problems are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: In this case it was a death related incident, a member of one of the groups had passed away, Mr Martin Ngcobo, did you still expect them to follow certain channels in order to pursue the issue relating to the death of a relative?

MR R.B. CELE: As people who were searching for body parts, relative's body parts, they were supposed to communicate that with the people in the area so that it will be known that that is what they had come for, they did not come there to attack.

ADV DE JAGER: But didn't they stand across the previous witness' house and shouted at him that they wanted the parts, the hand or the body parts of Martin?

MR R.B. CELE: I say this because when we questioned them, that is what they told us that they had come to fetch the body parts.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that. These questions are emanating from the evidence you have just led that you expected them to follow certain channels.

ADV DE JAGER: The previous witness was the leader, so the people stood there, outside, calling on him, listen, we have come to fetch, or we want the hand of Martin and they should have asked it from him, because he is the leader in that area. You said he should communicate with the leadership, the channels?

MR R.B. CELE: That act of shouting was not really communicating with him, because they could have done it properly. What they did, they insulted him, they also shouted. What they should have done was to come to his home, approach him in a proper manner and discussed the matter with him. That was not how they were supposed to do it.

ADV DE JAGER: But weren't they prevented by the community from coming to his home, they were on their way to his home and then they were prevented from coming to him?

MR R.B. CELE: It was their attitude, the utterances that they had made, they had specifically said that they had come to fetch these from Thulani. If they had come in a proper way and said that they wanted to communicate with Thulani, they would have done so, but the community's reaction was because of their attitude.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence therefore, I know we actually are taking Mr Molohlanye's action here, he should be presenting his evidence in chief, but are you suggesting that because they did not follow your expected line of communication, the community became angry and reacted in the manner they did, simply because they did not follow a particular procedure that you expected them to have followed?

MR R.B. CELE: No, that was not the reason why the community became annoyed. I was just explaining this with regards to the question that I asked them. I asked them if they had tried to communicate with the community through the correct channels and they said no, they had not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, the ball is in your court, sir.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. You asked the questions and other members of your community asked these people. What happened after that questioning?

MR R.B. CELE: We discovered that their intention of being in the area was to attack and then a decision was taken that they should be lashed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Who took the decision, were you part of the decision makers?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was present. The entire community was present. The structure stepped aside and they decided on how many lashes should be administered.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you administer any lashes after the structure had met and come up with the sentence?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After punishing these people, what happened?

MR R.B. CELE: After they had been lashed, they were informed that they should leave the area. They then requested to go via Mr Amos Cele's home to collect their belongings. After they had left to go to Mr Cele's house, comrades from Amadiqwe arrived in a kombi. They found that at that spot where the tribunal had been held, some people had left the spot, but there were some still remaining.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can I interrupt, according to the last witness, these people were sjamboked and thereafter Dudu was fetched. Do you have any knowledge of that or was she part of the people, the group when they were punished?

MR R.B. CELE: Dudu was not present when the first group was fetched.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Molohlanye? Won't you canvass exactly, he is applying for amnesty for public violence, what is it that he personally did? You seem to be moving away now from that act and we are getting on to another act without having canvassed the fact fully in respect of that.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Dudu was fetched, did you administer any punishment on Dudu?

CHAIRPERSON: Before Dudu was fetched, what did he do? What did he do to the people that were questioned prior to Dudu being fetched?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I think I have already asked him the question and then he mentioned, he made it clear that he also administered the slashing and the lashing, the beating of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to who, how many? We need details in respect there of.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. You are saying you were also part of the people who administered the lashing on the group, how many people did you assault yourself?

MR R.B. CELE: I do not remember exactly, I just remember Bonny as well as another dark guy from Umlazi, who had been wearing jeans.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You don't remember how many strokes you gave to Bonny or the other guy?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I cannot remember because a lot of people partook in the lashing of those people. There were about 600 people present. You would give them a lash and give the sjambok to another person until they had received their number that had been decided upon.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did this lashing last in terms of seconds or minutes, can you estimate?

MR R.B. CELE: I cannot recall how long it took. I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were lashed by this large group of 600 people?

MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think there were seven males and another two females, Zodwa and Nana.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you administer any lashes to Zodwa and Nana?

MR R.B. CELE: I did not take part in lashing them.

CHAIRPERSON: You were part of a group were you not?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And a decision had been taken to administer lashes on all those people who were at the hill, is it not so?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on what basis did you decide to administer lashes on the two women who had voluntarily accompanied the other persons, the seven males you have alluded to?

MR R.B. CELE: The reason why they were lashed was their behaviour , they showed disrespect for the meeting. They were disrespectful, disturbing the proceedings as well as trying to defend their brother and these other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason a decision was taken to administer lashes as far as they are concerned?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, indeed, that was the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. After Dudu was fetched, did you administer any lashes on her?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So, after Dudu was punished, as you said earlier, a kombi from Amadiqwe arrived.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may we just get back to the Dudu - what was your involvement, why do you apply for the amnesty for the assault on Dudu, what was your role, only participating in the decision? I don't think you have led that evidence?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Honourable Member, I think we are applying for that participation because he was acting in concert, he was part of the decision making to the beating and assaulting of Dudu.

MR MALAN: Exactly, but what was his role? Can you canvass his role in that act, acting in concert to the full please.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We must highlight that we haven't as yet heard any facts with regard to the decision, that he was party to the decision that said Dudu must be assaulted. I don't have any such evidence before me. It is actually the other way, the decision was to kill her, so you haven't led evidence with regard to him having participated in any decision that said Dudu must be assaulted, even if he didn't physically participate in the assault itself.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Can you please, Mr Cele, Roy, just tell the Committee what made the people or part of the group to go and fetch Dudu?

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a decision taken in respect of Dudu after you had administered lashes on the members which were at the hills?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, a decision was taken to fetch her.

CHAIRPERSON: And what were you to do after fetching her?

MR R.B. CELE: Some questions were to be put to her as she allegedly was the person who was going to identify or point out the person who had Martin's body parts.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only decision that was taken in respect of Dudu, that you had to go down, collect her with a view to questioning her?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, as well as for the reason that she was also from that area, Umlazi, having come with these people who were in the area to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take any decision at that stage that she had to be assaulted in the same manner, or in a different manner as the other people had been assaulted by administration of some strokes as people like Zodwa and Nana?

MR R.B. CELE: A decision was taken that she should be given 200 lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that decision taken, by whom?

MR R.B. CELE: It was taken after she had been fetched from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you at that stage, were you in the group that took a decision to administer 200 lashes on her?

MR R.B. CELE: I was present at the "People's Court".

CHAIRPERSON: Was this decision taken after she had been fetched from her hiding place as Amos Cele's house?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And taken up to the hills where you usually held your "Courts", to a place that has been referred to as the "People's Court"?

MR R.B. CELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what role did you have in her assault?

MR R.B. CELE: I was one of the people who consented that she should be given those 200 lashes because of her role.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take part physically in the administration of those lashes on her?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not participate?

MR R.B. CELE: There were too many people who were standing in the queue to administer lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So by the time 200 lashes had been administered on her, you had not had your chance?

MR R.B. CELE: As I mentioned before, there were about 600 people there, I was too far away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cele, what happened after Dudu was assaulted? Can you please in detail tell the Committee?

MR R.B. CELE: They were ordered to go fetch their belongings and leave the area.

MR MALAN: No the question is not, the question is what happened after Dudu had been assaulted. In terms of your affidavit, the other group, the males plus the two females, Nana and Zodwa, they were earlier sjamboked and sent away, then only was the decision taken to go and fetch Dudu. You sent for her, she was found under the bed, she was brought to the Court and then there was a decision to give her 200 lashes, there was this long queue that you talked about and then Dudu was sjamboked. The question is what happened then, by then the other group had long left, they were long ordered to leave the area.

MR R.B. CELE: Dudu was told exactly the same thing that had been told to the people, that she should leave the area.

MR MALAN: Right, but this was now only Dudu that was told, and this was much later?

MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think yes, she was alone at the time.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting you, but this really becomes important to my understanding of the situation. Maybe - let me allow you to pursue first this what happened after Dudu's sjamboking.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Cele, you are saying that Dudu was told to leave the area. What happened in that process while she was leaving?

MR R.B. CELE: As she was leaving, on her way to Mr Cele's house, I think she was just about half way through there, a kombi approached and the people who were in the kombi enquired about what was happening with regards to the people who had come to attack the area. They were informed that they had been punished and instructed to leave the area, but were still around, they hadn't left the area already.

MR MALAN: I missed that last part of the translation. They were told what, this is to the Interpreter? They were told that the people had left the area already or not left?

INTERPRETER: Not left the area already. They were informed that the people had been punished and ordered to leave the area, but that they had not as yet left.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please proceed Mr Cele.

MR R.B. CELE: The comrades from Amadiqwe disapproved of that punishment, that they should just be let loose. They regarded them as a serious threat, they said that they could return later to attack.

MR MALAN: May I just take you back to why were the comrades told that the group that were originally sjamboked, had not yet left? Why did you tell them that they had not yet left, how did you know that?

MR R.B. CELE: From the spot where we were standing, it is possible to see a person leaving the area, you are able to see the bus stop, so you would have been able to see a person boarding a bus.

MR MALAN: You were at the trial and you recall, and I am simply referring to the judgement, that Ernest said that he had left boarding the bus, he was not chased away, he left on the bus?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.

MR MALAN: In your trial, Ernest gave evidence that he boarded a bus and left on the bus after having been ordered to leave the area?

MR R.B. CELE: What I can explain or comment on that is that the evidence that was presented in court, was incorrect. They were just trying to make sure that we received a harsh sentence, but the evidence was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely Mr Cele, you are a very large group of 600 persons, you wouldn't be in a position to see who is coming and who is going out in the Cele family? It is just probable that Ernest might have been the only person to have boarded the bus whilst the others were still preparing their way to leave and that you did not see him leaving? It is possible that some of these events might have escaped you because I am sure much was happening around you for you to have been able to watch the movement of each and every person that you had punished as to whether he had left the Cele home or not at the time when the kombi arrived?

MR R.B. CELE: From the spot where we were standing, it was possible to see a person going to the bus stop, boarding a bus. Before they left that house, the comrades of Amadiqwe arrived and told us that we have made a mistake to let them go and then from there, a group of people went to that house and that is when these people fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. What happened after this Amadiqwe comrades have mentioned that they did not agree with your decision?

MR R.B. CELE: A decision was taken that this people should be killed. That was when the last group of people rushed to Amos Cele's house and these people then fled.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Sorry to interrupt, you said a decision was taken to kill them. Where you part of that decision?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was part. I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom in particular was that decision taken?

MR R.B. CELE: I can say that every member of the structure consented to the killing of those people.

CHAIRPERSON: By every member, who are you referring to, can you give us the names?

MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to myself, Thulani Cele, Bongani Khumalo, Thami Mthembu, Nhlanhleni Makhaya.

CHAIRPERSON: Nhlanhla Makhaya?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Nhlanhla Makhaya in your structure, I thought he was not in your structure, from the evidence led by Mr Thulani Cele, I thought Nhlanhla Makhaya was in fact the leader of the ANC at Gangala?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, he was. I am referring to that structure, a special structure that had been set up specifically for this reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Which structure are you referring to? What ad hoc structure are you referring to, was there another structure established other than the structure that we know to have existed at Manyaseni?

MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to the same structure that Mr Thulani Cele spoke about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the evidence, if I recall the evidence of Thulani Cele, Nhlanhla was the leader of the ANC at Gangala and did not belong to your structure?

MR R.B. CELE: Nhlanhla was part of the structure because we co-operated, we had actually amalgamated because criminal activities were carried out at both Gangala as well as our areas.

CHAIRPERSON: When did your structure and his, amalgamate?

MR R.B. CELE: It happened long before this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I want to know when, a month, a week, a day before this incident?

MR R.B. CELE: It was set up before the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it immediately before in terms of weeks, in terms of months, we need an approximation?

MR R.B. CELE: If I am not mistaken, it could have been two months, but I am not certain.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. The structure took a decision to kill these people of which you were part and what happened after the decision?

MR R.B. CELE: This large group of people then rushed to that house to kill the people. When they saw this, they fled the house and dispersed, running in different directions.

CHAIRPERSON: There is one aspect that is a little troubling that you may be able to clear without any further delay. In your statement, you have referred to a decision having been taken and that decision was to the effect that Amos Cele's house should be attacked and your statement does not allude to a decision having been taken to kill the people that you had administered lashes upon. Can you explain why that important aspect of your evidence was left out in your statement and only this decision was alluded to in your statement? I draw your attention to paragraph 8 of your own statement. You say

"... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked."

You did not state that the decision taken was to kill the persons concerned, but you only referred to the attack on the house of Amos Cele.

MR R.B. CELE: As I have explained, the decision to kill those people came later and it had not been decided in that meeting. It came from this other people. It was ...

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you, I am sorry to do that because I don't think we are on the same page, I understand that. What I want to know is why in your statement you did not refer to that decision, you only referred to a decision having been taken with regard to attacking Amos Cele's house. Your statement did not refer to the decision to kill the persons concerned.

MR R.B. CELE: There might have been a mistake that was committed, this incident took place a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the statement made, Mr Cele, was this statement not made today?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not make it today.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the statement made?

MR R.B. CELE: I think it was last week.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were not recollecting the events better last week? Yes?

MR R.B. CELE: I did explain that what I am explaining here, is what I remember. As I am explaining, that decision was taken that they should be killed because they posed a threat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, I just wanted to know why you omitted to include that decision in this statement, which would be a far much more important decision to include in the statement?

MR R.B. CELE: I thought it had been included that we scattered, chasing after this people.

CHAIRPERSON: That has been included, but what has not been included is the fact that you took a decision to kill the people concerned, that is not included in your statement and that is an important decision to have been omitted. Instead you only included a decision which was to attack Mr Amos Cele's house, you see there is a difference between a decision to attack a house and a decision to kill people, if you read the statement.

MR R.B. CELE: We were going to attack people who were in Amos Cele's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that include Mr Cele himself?

MR R.B. CELE: No, Mr Cele was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: When you took the decision to kill whoever would be in Mr Cele's house, did you include Mr Cele in your decision?

MR R.B. CELE: We intended to kill the people from Umlazi as well as Bonny Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your intention also to include Amos Cele as the owner of the kraal where these people had been harboured?

MR R.B. CELE: He would have not suffered because of that action of harbouring these dangerous people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that your decision extended also to killing Mr Amos Cele, yes or no?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. So these people, group of people from Mr Cele's house, ran away in different directions, did you try to pursue any of them or did you according to the earlier evidence, some of you were left behind to burn the house. Were you part of those who were at the house or did you pursue any of the people who were running out of the house?

MR R.B. CELE: I chased after the people who had been fleeing because they ran in different directions, so I was part of that group who chased after this people.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Who did you chase?

MR R.B. CELE: I and my group chased after Bonny Cele.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you find him or did you catch up with him?

MR R.B. CELE: No, he outran us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So what did you do after that?

MR R.B. CELE: We then returned back.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Proceed.

MR R.B. CELE: We then came upon Dudu, she was laying at the bus stop, Manyaseni bus stop, she was already dead. We were then informed that one group, some people from our group, had been responsible for killing her, that those had been the people who had been chasing after her.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Are you telling this Committee that you were not part of the people who physically assaulted Dudu and ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not his evidence Mr Molohlanye. He definitely participated in assaulting Dudu, that is his evidence. What he is saying is that he was not present, he didn't witness anything that led to Dudu being killed. By the time he came back, he discovered that the other group had killed Dudu. At least that is what he was told when he came back. When he came back and found her laying at Manyaseni bus stop.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Then what happened after you found Dudu laying at the bus stop, Mr Cele?

MR R.B. CELE: We then dispersed, went to our respective homes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please tell us what happened on the 28th of December, the same year, that is 1989?

MR MALAN: Just before you move on to the next incident. You, the group, after you went back to Amos Cele's house, can you just say to us, did you stop over there when you got to the house?

MR R.B. CELE: No.

MR MALAN: Can I take you to your paragraph 8 on the statement that you made. I take you to this part which begins, it is the fourth line from the end of paragraph 8 - "... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked."

Can you see that?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: "... all the people in the house ran away into different directions and the house was burnt."

Is that correct?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, the house was burnt.

MR MALAN: "... so we were divided into groups, trying to pursue these people."

Is that correct?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, we did divide ourselves into different groups.

MR MALAN: Okay, so the house was burnt?

MR R.B. CELE: The house was already burning at the time.

MR MALAN: Yes, that is right, the house was burning, then you divided into different groups, you decided you would go looking for the people?

MR R.B. CELE: I would explain it this way. When we arrived to Mr Cele's home, they came out of the house, fleeing. Some people from our group, remained and burnt the house whilst others chased after the people who had been running away.

MR MALAN: Okay, did you remain behind or did you chase at that stage?

MR R.B. CELE: I was amongst the people who had been chasing the group.

MR MALAN: Was the house already burning then when you made chase?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, the house was burning at the time.

MR MALAN: So clearly you stopped at the house and the house was set alight, you were there when the house was set alight?

MR R.B. CELE: There was no time to stop. Everything happened quickly, there would have been no time to stop. When we reached the yard, others started burning the house, others chasing after these people.

MR MALAN: Yes, but please Mr Cele, I am asking you about your movements, did you stop at the house or did you run passed the house?

MR R.B. CELE: I ran passed the house.

MR MALAN: So you weren't divided into groups, you just ran, you followed somebody that was running away, nobody divided you into a group?

MR R.B. CELE: No, we were not divided into groups, but people just ran after those individuals, there was no person who was dividing us into groups.

MR MALAN: Yes, and if I hear you correctly, you were pursuing Bonny?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you see him?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did. I knew what clothing he had on.

MR MALAN: And he outran you?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was anybody else with you pursuing him, or were you on your own?

MR R.B. CELE: There were many people.

MR MALAN: And he outran all of you?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, he did.

MR MALAN: Okay. Then you were pursuing Bonny and Thulani gave us evidence that he was pursuing Dudu.

MR R.B. CELE: He must have been amongst that group who were chasing after Dudu.

MR MALAN: Yes, now I want to know who pursued the other members, did you see any of the other members of this group that were sjamboked, that you ordered out of the area?

MR R.B. CELE: They ran in different directions, I did not see what was going on with regards to the others. I was just chasing after this person.

MR MALAN: You saw a lot of people running in different directions, my question is did you see any of those specific members? Those individuals that you had just ordered out of the area? I am telling you why I am asking this, I find it very difficult to understand that these seven individuals plus two women, are being sjamboked, they are being ordered out of the area, then they leave, they ask for permission to just pick up their belongings at Amos Cele's house, which they are granted, from where they are to leave the area. Nobody escorts them, they just leave. At that stage, a decision is taken to fetch Dudu, people go down to Dudu's place, back up the hill, there is again a tribunal, a decision that she be lashed 200 cuts, there is a long queue, then Dudu goes back and she is ordered out of the area, then the kombi arrives. Now really some time must have lapsed by now and you are telling me that all the people are still in Amos Cele's house? I find it very difficult to understand, especially also because those pursued were only Dudu and Bonny, that we have direct evidence of, people involved in the pursuit. Also in terms of the criminal trial, we have the evidence on record of Ernest that he had earlier left by bus, having been ordered out of the area. I am asking you again, did you see Ernest running from Amos Cele's house with Dudu and Bonny?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did see him.

MR MALAN: Who else did you see, did you see all of them running out of the house?

MR R.B. CELE: There were many of them who came out of the house and they scattered in different directions. They had not as yet gone to board the bus, I am not certain whether they had been waiting for Dudu or not and as I explained before, it was just after Dudu had been sjamboked that these comrades arrived from Amadiqwe.

MR MALAN: Okay, I don't think I am going to get more clarity, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cele, as I did earlier, can you please tell this Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989?

MR R.B. CELE: On the 28th of December, because there had been survivals of the incident of the 25th, no one felt safe. We did not sleep at our homes. My family had left, I was the only person remaining. On that evening, it was already dark, I heard people approaching my home. I assumed that they must be comrades because we were at that time patrolling the area because of the situation. Before I could communicate or contact these people, I heard gunshots. I was standing, leaning against a big tree. When I heard these gunshots I returned fire, because I had a firearm in my possession. Immediately thereafter comrades from the area came, wanting to know what was going on. When they enquired I informed them that there were people who had just fired shots at me and they were chased. As explained before, it was dark, we chased after these people and managed to get hold of just one of them. Myself and Bongani then shot this person and thereafter we dispersed. On the following day, it was discovered that Amos Cele had been amongst that group of people. In fact it was Amos Cele who had been shot.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After that incident, what happened? Sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that you pursued these people and one of them tried to hide himself. What did you do to this person, you said we shot him. Did you take any part in the actual shooting of the person?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did shoot at that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It was a singular not a plural, that he shot at the person?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson. Can you please tell us what happened after that incident?

MR R.B. CELE: After the incident on the 28th?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes?

MR R.B. CELE: After that person had been shot, the Police had been looking for me and I was arrested in January, I think it was on the 16th of January.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Mr Cele, I have no further questions as far as your statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You must thank us, not thank your witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

ADV DE JAGER: Just enquire, Mr Amos Cele, how old was he?

MR R.B. CELE: I cannot be certain.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he a family of yours?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Your grandfather?

MR R.B. CELE: My father.

ADV DE JAGER: Your father?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you have no idea how old he was, was he a man in the 70's already or what age roundabout?

MR R.B. CELE: He might have been around 65 or 50 something, I am not sure.

ADV DE JAGER: So you in fact killed your own father?

MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you realise it at any time before the next day, while chasing the people, did you realise that you were chasing your father?

MR R.B. CELE: No, it was too dark, because it was in the evening. We were just chasing the people who were attacking me at home, therefore I didn't see as to who they were.

ADV DE JAGER: Those people attacking you at your home, you didn't know who it was, whether it was criminals or whether they were politically related?

MR R.B. CELE: I knew that there were political violence or conflict in the nearby areas, therefore we stayed knowing very well that we were going to be attacked any time, we just didn't know when. Therefore we stayed, knowing very well or armed that in case it happened that we are being attacked, we defend ourselves.

ADV DE JAGER: The first gunshots, you thought it was in fact comrades shooting? You didn't expect it would be IFP people shooting at you? You gave evidence and said you thought it was the comrades shooting?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I didn't say so. I wouldn't think that they were comrades shooting at me because comrades knew that they were not supposed to shoot at me.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I don't say shooting at you, but when you heard the shots, your evidence was that you thought it may be comrades shooting, unless I have it completely wrong?

MR R.B. CELE: No, I didn't say so. I didn't say that I thought that it was comrades shooting. I said I thought they were comrades and I started speaking to them, that is when they started shooting.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is five o'clock and I want to assume that you have a few questions to put to Mr Roy Cele, which will be longer than five minutes. However, if your questions are going to be shorter than that, I will suggest that you proceed to put whatever questions you have for Mr Cele, if you contemplate your questions being longer than five minutes, I would direct that we adjourn today's proceedings to enable Mr Cele to retire and to be taken into Correctional Services protective custody. I have actually ran foul of not observing and respecting the difficulties under which Correctional Services are working, by keeping these hearings until too late. I am mindful of the fact that they need to go back for various and other logistical reasons. Do you think you will be longer than five minutes?

MS THABETHE: I will Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case, we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that be convenient, I am now directing this at members of Correctional Services, will nine o'clock be a convenient time for you to be here? We would expect you to be here before nine o'clock, thank you. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee pleases.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS