DONALD SPENCER GOLD: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee.
Mr Gold, you made an application for amnesty which appears at pages 1 to 6 of the bundle and attached to that you made an affidavit which appears at pages 7 to 20 of the bundle, is that correct?
MR GOLD: That is correct, Sir.
MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of those two documents?
MR GOLD: I do, Mr Chairman.
MR WILLS: Mr Gold, you confirm further that you are withdrawing your applications in respect of those items which appear at 4.3 and 4.4 of the bundle, i.e. the kidnapping of an ANC operation, or the attempted kidnapping of an ANC operative in Swaziland and the crossing from Swaziland into South Africa without going through a border post.
MR GOLD: I do, Mr Chairman.
MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Gold, you've had a fairly long career in the Security Branch of the SAPS, up to the point of this incident that you are applying for amnesty, i.e. in 1980, is that correct?
MR GOLD: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR WILLS: Can you briefly explain or briefly tell the Committee what your career was involved in. I know it's quite well documented, but just briefly run through it for the benefit of the victims.
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, after being recruited into the Security Branch, end of January 1972, I went on course -sorry, November 1972, I went on a course, basic Security Branch course. I was then transferred to Pietermaritzburg Security Branch.
My duties here included, my first duties included undercover intelligence gathering to do with academics and students on the campus of the University of Pietermaritzburg.
Towards the middle of 1973 I was transferred to do field work among white suspects, including students, as well as assisting in intelligence gathering operations along the Swaziland and Mozambique borders with Natal.
In 1974 I was assigned to the Howick/Bulwer, basically the southern Drakensburg area and the Natal Midlands area, where I continued with tasks related to intelligence gathering and keeping eyes on suspects and other security matters. These duties included stints along our eastern border with Lesotho.
MR WILLS: Mr Gold, to cut a long story short, this appears in your affidavit, but I want you to concentrate on paragraph 21 on page 12, and you confirm that during that period of involvement with the Security Police, you were a loyal and dedicated member trying to do the job to the best of your abilities.
MR GOLD: Yes, Sir.
MR WILLS: Your motivation in what you did was that you were operating against the ANC and its communist influence and you felt that that was the right thing to do.
MR GOLD: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR WILLS: Now I want to turn specifically to the incident in respect of which you're applying for amnesty, and that appears at page 15 of the bundle. This is the murder, your involvement in the murder and defeating the ends of justice in respect of the demise of Mr Madondo, the deceased in this matter. Do you know exactly, or did you know at that time the identity of the person whose body you destroyed?
MR GOLD: Not at all, Mr Chairman. The only time I heard a name mentioned was a week or two ago when I saw this bundle for the first time. Up until that time I had no idea.
MR WILLS: Now you have been shown the photographs that appear on the bundle, at the end of the bundle from pages 140, can you recognise this person from those photographs?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can neither confirm nor deny the identity of this person. I wish I could.
MR WILLS: Yes. You also are adamant that to the best of your recollection the incident occurred during April 1980. Can you indicate to the Committee why you are sure that this was the date the incident occurred?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can't recollect why exactly, but the 1st of April sticks in my mind. I remember thinking at the time the irony of it all.
MR WILLS: Mr Gold, you indicated that you indicated to Mr van Zyl that you were available to do work, this combating and elimination of ANC guerrillas, that you were prepared to get involved in this type of work.
MR GOLD: Well, Mr Chairman, one must just remember that that was the nature of the work of the Security Branch per se. We worked according to strict compartmentation, one hand didn't really know what the other one was doing. I mean that's in accordance with the strict rules of intelligence. And from time to time you happened to pick up things, you happened to hear innuendoes or whatever and through the grapevine and through the odd little slip, whether it be at teatime or at social gatherings or sometimes in meetings, you would glean or gather that there was something extra going on and I did let it be known, through innuendo as well, that I would be available for such things, not knowing what they were, I would be available.
MR WILLS: Now your relationship with Apt van Zyl, his indicated in his evidence that it was a good relationship and you trusted him implicitly.
MR GOLD: Oh yes.
MR WILLS: Now when he called you to perform this operation, what was your attitude and how did you view this communication between him and yourself?
MR GOLD: Well I realised that he was in need of help related to the type of innuendo message that I sent him and I realised that this was something of this nature that was about to happen. And him being as highly respected an officer as he was at the time, I had no hesitation in assisting him or agreeing to help him.
MR WILLS: And what did you think the purpose of this operation was in terms of the sort of bigger picture as regards the position of the Security Police and the politics in the country generally at that time?
MR GOLD: Well I had no doubt that this was involving what we used to term terrorists and that here was a chance to get into action against the same terrorists, as we knew them at that time, and that obviously there was going to be some kind of ambush or other. That's how I saw it. Or some kind of operation where people would be arrested.
MR WILLS: Now your involvement in this commenced with a telephone call which it's common cause, that Mr van Zyl called you and asked for your assistance. Can you relate to the Committee what you recall about the contents or what was discussed on the telephone at that particular point in time.
MR GOLD: No, Mr Chairman, I don't think we should be restricted to one telephone call, it might have been more, but all I remember was that I was asked to report - I thought it was in Mbazwaan, I still think it was, but I was asked to report to Mbazwaan, with some explosives and that there was a job that required my expertise as a bomb disposal specialist, or as an explosives man.
MR WILLS: You say you cannot recall, and I'm referring to paragraph 34 on page 16, you cannot recall as to whether or not you were told at that stage that your expertise were going to be used for the purposes of blowing up a body, is that correct?
MR GOLD: No, I cannot recall that exactly, but I may have surmised it, yes.
MR WILLS: Now before I forget, there is an issue regarding who brought the main charge of the explosives. You've said in your affidavit that you didn't bring all of the explosives to the scene, can you ...(intervention)
MR GOLD: You see Mr Chairman, when I started - after my training, when I started working with explosives I had a very strict code of rules because you only make one mistake with explosives and I made very sure that I would never keep explosives, any amount of explosives that could harm a human person or life, at the police station.
Although I was responsible for inspecting the contents of commercial explosives magazines throughout my area, and although I could have kept explosives at any one of these magazines, I decided not to because it just was not a safe thing to do. So because of my strict rule, I find it difficult to believe that I actually brought the explosives. But because it's become an issue here since reading all the statements, I've thought about it. It is possible that I fetched these explosives from Ladysmith Security Branch, it is possible. It is possible.
MR WILLS: In other words, you can't specifically recall this.
MR GOLD: I can't, I cannot, I wish I could.
MR WILLS: You say you arrived at the Mbazwaan Police Station and you were introduced to Col Visser at that stage.
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can't remember if it was at that stage, but I deed meet, during the day I did meet Col Visser. I think it was there at that police station. I'm sure it was in Mbazwaan. But I definitely met Apt van Zyl there, I'm sure I also met Sgt or W/O Carr there and I also saw that the deceased person was in the car.
MR WILLS: Yes. Now ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, what was the last thing you said? The deceased person was ...? I just didn't catch it.
MR GOLD: ... in the car.
MR LAX: In the car, okay.
MR GOLD: In the car that Apt van Zyl was in. So it must have been, Col or Brig Visser must have been there at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: How far is this police station, Mbazwaan, from the spot actually where the killing took place?
MR GOLD: Sir, I've been there so many times, but to try and remember, it's not very far, that's all I know. Mbazwaan is about half-an-hour drive.
CHAIRPERSON: Past this place, coming from Pongola for instance?
MR GOLD: No, Sir, I couldn't answer that. It's not really my area, but Mbazwaan was about half-an-hour's drive from the Josini dam, I think about half-an-hour's drive from the Josini dam area where this incident took place. I'd be lying if I told you exactly.
MR LAX: Sorry, just for the record, it's a lot further than that.
MR GOLD: Is it.
MR LAX: Yes, it's further south firstly, in that area.
MR GOLD: Okay.
MR LAX: Well almost due east actually I suppose and it's at least an hour, depending on the road at the time, an hour and hour and fifteen minutes probably by vehicle.
MR GOLD: What I do recall, Mr Chairman, is that when we left it was still reasonably dark, it was dark, the sun - it was first light, by the time we reached the destination it was bright light you know. That's what I remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know whether you'll be able to help me, perhaps Mr Lax could help us, but how far from Pongola is this place? The Josini dam, actually the spot at the Josini dam.
MR GOLD: Oh no, not very far. From Pongola it's not far, Sir, although I wouldn't be able to tell you how far. All I know is that it's pretty closed. I'm sorry, I'm being very vague.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
MR WILLS: You say that some time during that morning, Mr van Zyl informed you about this particular deceased person, that he'd been a security agent, and I'm referring to page 16 and 17 paragraph 36, that this person had been a Security Branch agent and operating under Visser and he'd sold out and become an ANC member.
MR GOLD: Yes, that is what I recall of the conversation, something along the lines that this was an agent who had turned and was now a double-agent working for the ANC, and that this turning had compromised an operation. And I seem to recall that there had already been deaths as a result of this in Swaziland, but I can't be absolutely sure about that.
MR WILLS: Now you also knew - or when did you become alive to the fact that this person was going to be killed and you were going to be blowing up his body?
MR GOLD: On the way to the lake, on the way to Josini dam I was informed. I think we stopped somewhere for the call of nature along the road somewhere and I was informed then that this in fact is what was going to happen.
MR WILLS: Yes. Now why didn't you question this instruction, or why did you remain involved in this operation?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, first of all I was dealing with an officer that I knew extremely well and who I respected, that was Apt Sakkie van Zyl. He'd proved himself to me on many occasions that he was an honest person who could be trusted and that he took his work and his tasks extremely seriously, as I did, and for him to ask me to involve myself in something like that, I realised that he needed my help. To reinforce everything, Brig Visser, being a much higher ranking officer, was also on the scene and I had no hesitation in carrying on, Sir, although at the time it did shock me and I wish I'd been somewhere else at the time, frankly. But it was something that I was asked to do and I carried on.
MR WILLS: You also are pretty clear in paragraph 36 that you refer to this person as he appeared to you to be sedated. Why do you say that?
MR GOLD: Sir, I can't recall seeing this person when he wasn't sleeping. But remember I arrived there early in the morning, it was still dark, he was snoozing in the car then and the only time I saw him basically awake was when we got to the disused farmhouse at Josini dam. So he appeared to me to have been sedated.
I know this is a contentious issue here, but I seem to recall that, I thought somebody had told me that he was sedated, but I obviously was wrong, but he did appear to be sedated to me, I suppose because he'd been sleeping and was sleeping most of the time that I saw him.
MR WILLS: You go on further, you say that later you found out that this black male had been drugged.
MR GOLD: Ja, Mr Chairman, that's what I - I can't recall who told me or why I got that impression, but that is the impression that is left with me and I can't recall why I had that impression, apart from the fact that he was sleeping all the time.
MR WILLS: You can't remember ...(intervention)
MR GOLD: I can remember nobody - I can't remember who told me or if in fact anyone did tell me, maybe it's just a perception that I gathered at the time.
MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee what your recollection is from the time you left the police station to the time when this operation was completed.
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I was actually - as I said, I wished I'd been somewhere else because I realised I'd got myself into something that I really wished I could extract myself from. My thoughts were racing all the way there.
When we arrived at the spot, I remember we got out of the vehicle, the deceased person was lying down, I can't recall it as a tree, but there was a pole or something there and a fence, a wooden picket fence, he was lying there on the grass. I realised then the enormity of what I was expected to do and I realised then that this living person was about to be eliminated and that worried me somewhat, in fact it worried me considerably.
MR WILLS: Ja, carry on, what happened? You arrived there as you say, in your vehicle, you travelled alone in your own vehicle.
MR GOLD: Yes.
MR WILLS: To the scene.
MR GOLD: Yes.
MR WILLS: And then there was a Landrover used.
MR GOLD: Yes, there was a Landrover, I think that was Mr Carr's Landrover and I travelled behind that Landrover to the scene. As I recollect then the deceased was in my vehicle, together with Apt van Zyl and myself in my vehicle and when we arrived there we all got out of the vehicle, the deceased then lay down on the grass, sleeping. I then saw - this business of the submachine gun is not very, very clear, but I then saw the submachine gun come out and it was given to W/O Carr ...(intervention)
MR WILLS: Just on that point, can you remember at any stage having been specifically requested to bring this weapon and you specifically refer to a machine gun with a silencer?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can't specifically remember being asked to bring it, however it is quite possible that I was asked to bring it because at the time I was working with all the firearms at Natal Security Branch Headquarters in Pietermaritzburg. I had many weapons under my control. I was doing a lot of public relations exercises, talks, going around to police stations, familiarising the uniform members of the police what to look for. I had all kinds of Warsaw pact material, from weapons to bits and pieces of landmines and things like that, so I had a lot of weapons at my disposal. When any weapons needed maintenance or servicing or needed clearing, I was normally the person who got given the job to do it, because I was doing much investigating at that time, I was the inspector of explosives.
I do recall that there was at that time in the safe in Pietermaritzburg, whether it was at that time or not, I did see a Walter(?) submachine fitted with a silencer and the bag that goes with it to pick up the cartridge cases. I remember that. It is possible that I was asked to bring it, but I cannot recollected that.
CHAIRPERSON: You've stated in paragraph 35 that you had at least your pistol and some form of assault ...(intervention)
MR GOLD: Yes, Sir, I always travelled, if I travelled any distance out from my base, I always had my pistol with me, that's for sure, but I always carried some form of assault rifle with me. It might have been - it could have been an R1 rifle, but it could also have been one of the many Warsaw pact weapons that I carried.
CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been this weapon that's been used?
MR GOLD: No, I doubt that very much, and the reason for that, Sir, is that the - I'm a bit of a firearm specialist, and to silence a weapon you have to reduce the speed of the bullet to below the speed of sound, which means it's hitting power is not all that good. So I would not have been too happy carrying something like that in my boot. If I was going to carry an assault weapon of any type, it would have been something that had the necessary hitting power.
CHAIRPERSON: But if you were aware that there would be an elimination of somebody?
MR GOLD: Then again, I wouldn't have carried it either unless I was asked to bring it. So it's possible that it could have happened, Sir, but I cannot recollect it.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR WILLS: As I understand the tenor of your evidence, you're saying that you carried your pistol, an assault rifle, and it is possible that in addition to that you carried this submachine gun.
MR GOLD: It's possible.
MR WILLS: ... with a silencer.
MR GOLD: It's possible, Sir.
MR WILLS: Now turning to paragraph 37 of your affidavit, you indicate that to the best of your knowledge, that - and I'm quoting
"A black male who I think was called Robert Rupert or Robin ..."
Those are the names that you actually recall this person being referred to.
MR GOLD: Those are the names, or that is what sticks in my mind. The name was either Robert or Rupert or something like that, one of the "Rs", or Robin. That sticks in my minds but I couldn't tell you why. Maybe one of my colleagues who was with me used that name, if so I can't remember who it was.
MR WILLS: But you clearly don't remember the name Scorpion being used.
MR GOLD: No, never. The first time I heard that name was two weeks ago when I saw the bundle for the first time.
MR WILLS: Now I want you to tell us what happened when you arrived at the farmhouse. And you can take us through from paragraph 39 in your affidavit.
MR GOLD: Well when we arrived there everybody seemed to have their allotted duties worked out, everybody, well not everybody, but people knew what they were supposed to be doing and I must say that Mr Schoon was not present, he had gone, I later found out he had gone to get the boat ready.
So at this stage it was Apt van Zyl, W/O Carr and myself, and I was then told what was going to happen, this person was going to be killed and that the body was going to be taken to the dam shore and then we were going to load the body onto a boat, take it to an island and destroy it. That's what I was told.
MR WILLS: Yes.
MR GOLD: We weren't at the house very long and I noticed that the deceased was lying down, as I told you, and I realised then that he was going to be killed. This didn't sit very well with me I can tell you. So I actually moved away from the scene as I couldn't face this murder, it's something I didn't want to see. I then went back to my car which was around the corner from where the hostage was lying and I rummaged in my boot.
As I was moving away I saw Mr Carr moving towards the deceased, with the submachine gun, but that's the last I saw, when he disappeared from my view and I walked towards my vehicle. And while I was rummaging in the boot I heard the shots, in the boot I heard the shots.
MR WILLS: Now you say you heard the shots. Obviously there's a different sound between a silenced submachine gun and a pistol. Can you tell us with a little bit more accuracy what you actually heard or what you can remember hearing.
MR GOLD: Absolutely, Mr Chairman. I did hear the silenced weapon fire first, followed by two, perhaps three, unsilenced pistol shots, rapid, rapid succession.
MR WILLS: You also say that whilst Carr and ...(indistinct) were at the body at the body at the time you didn't see exactly who shot.
MR GOLD: I did not see.
MR WILLS: Now referring to paragraph 41, page 18, you say you were in a total shock, why is this?
MR GOLD: Sir, I'm not in the practice of seeing people killed like that, Mr Chairman. I was in shock. In fact that incident has shaped my life since that day, about 20 years ago.
MR WILLS: It was obviously a very traumatic experience for you.
MR GOLD: I'm afraid it was very traumatic for me.
MR WILLS: Tell us what happened thereafter, after you had heard the shots.
MR GOLD: I went back to the scene and saw the deceased lying on the ground, he'd been shot in the head. I just saw a head wound. We then wrapped the corpse up in a tarpaulin and I was totally numb at the time. I remember seeing traces of blood on the ground and all I could think of was just covering it with sand to hide this thing.
We loaded the corpse wrapped in the tarpaulin on the back of the Landrover and transported it to the edge of the dam. I drove behind the Landrover. I can remember being very worried at the time that the rear door of the Landrover would spring open and the corpse would fall out onto the road, but that didn't happen, thank goodness.
We drove to the edge of the dam and we found a, there was a large boat there, moored there, that's where we found Brig Visser and W/O Schoon waiting in the boat. The corpse was transferred into the boat and I cannot remember, because time to me was total oblivion at that stage, but we did travel for a while on the lake until we got to an island. It was quite some distance.
The explosives were also loaded onto the boat. As I say, I can't recall who brought them, but it could possibly have been me. Everybody was on the boat, the whole party was on the boat. At the island we unloaded the corpse and took it into the middle of the island, more-or-less and the explosives were then packed on the body.
Now in my training I'd been taught how to blow bridges, I'd been taught how to blow railway lines, I'd been taught how to do all kinds of things, but I'd never been taught how to destroy a corpse with explosives. So what we did is we made quite a few flat charges of the explosive, which was a PE4 military explosive, white plastic explosive, and ran a detonating cord through it, commonly known as cortex.
We then took cover and with a controlled detonation, well of course it's a controlled detonation, I detonated the charges. There was nothing left of the body, nothing at all.
MR WILLS: Now this is an area where Mr van Zyl seems to differ with you to a certain extent, that he indicates that there were possibly two explosions and that the pieces of the body were picked up and then a second explosion, or they were detonated or exploded to destroy them. As I understand your evidence you are absolutely sure that there was just one explosion.
MR GOLD: I realise the contention there, Mr Chairman, but I'm absolutely sure. I had to make sure that this thing worked the first time and I was very careful that I had no misfires and the corpse was totally destroyed with the first, with one detonation.
CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't have made sure because you had no experience of what would be needed.
MR GOLD: Well exactly, Sir, I just thought that if - I just actually used more explosive than I think was necessary, but I wanted to make sure.
MR LAX: Is it not possible that there was a second explosion but you've just blocked it out of your mind because of the trauma and the stress and everything else that went with it?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, if I can just digress. Since this incident I have studied extensively what happens to the human body during a fight(sic) or flight(sic) response, it's been part of my life, part of what I teach people to do, and there's definitely a period after such a shock where you have no comprehension of time, you have no comprehension of what you've done and it is possible, but no I doubt it.
MR WILLS: The fact of the matter is, Mr Gold, is that you admit like the other applicants that you were involved in the destruction of this body and that you certainly did.
MR GOLD: There's no doubt about it, Mr Chairman.
MR WILLS: And it was you who detonated the charges and destroyed this body.
MR GOLD: I detonated the charges, I destroyed that body.
MR WILLS: Can you tell us what happened thereafter.
MR GOLD: Well as is customary after any controlled detonation we did a, under my instruction we did a 360 degree check to see if there were any un-detonated explosives lying around and if there were any remains of the corpse, but we were satisfied that we had left no trace of our deed. So we all went back to the boat and travelled back to shore where our vehicles were still parked. I still to this day cannot remember the boat trip back to the shore, I was totally numbed by this experience. I think we all were.
We then got into our vehicles and left the scene. I remember waiting with Brig Visser at a picnic site below the bridge where the main road crosses the Pongola river. I can't remember exactly what we were waiting for, but I think Apt van Zyl just wanted to make sure that there were no bad reports about the explosion in the area and that everything had gone off well. He then returned and he reported that all was clear and then we split up.
I can remember then the shot exploder I used for this job was not the conventional commercial shot exploder that I'd been issued with, I used a military shock exploder that was used for detonating Claymore directional mines and to me at that time it was a symbolic gesture, I handed over that shot exploder, I think it was to Mr Schoon, in a manner of saying never again and we all left the scene. I remember it was getting quite late at that stage and I drove and stopped overnight at Qwambenambe Police Station, where I knew there were single quarters. I can recall it being a very, very hot night and it was a very sleepless one for me, I can assure you.
Through that same process of innuendo I mentioned right at the beginning and ambiguities, I indicated there was no way that I would ever get involved in anything like that again and I was never asked again.
MR WILLS: And you've never been involved in anything like this again.
MR GOLD: Never, Sir.
MR WILLS: Now Mr Gold, there's possibly members of the deceased's family here, do you have anything to say to them?
MR GOLD: Yes, I do. I must say that I don't want to bore you with long speeches about why we did what we did or why I was doing the work I was doing, but over a long time we were conditioned to the stage where we could actually do things like this, perhaps.
You must remember that from a very, very early age I was exposed to the violence that was happening in the country. I can remember at that age of eight, looking out of my bedroom window in Scottsville, Pietermaritzburg and seeing the community hall of Sebantu village burning during unrest and that was the first indication to me that we had a problem here.
And then throughout the years for instance, the propaganda that we were exposed to, but no propaganda could ever teach me that black people were bad, or no propaganda could teach me not to respect and love the nursemaid I had who first taught me Zulu or uBuntu or whatever you'd like to call it. I realised there was something seriously wrong, but the savage nature of the symptoms of the Nationalist Government, the savage nature of the symptoms, there were so many of them. I can recall things like the Bashe Bridge murders, I can recall things like the Langa riots, I can recall the Cato Manor riots, I can recall the nun, Dr Mary Quinlan who was killed during township unrests and the mob eating her body which they cooked on her burning car. Stuff like that left a lasting impression on me and I wanted to fight this. I realised that black people weren't being treated right, but nothing, but nothing could condone the savagery of those symptoms.
Anyway, to cut it short, if the deceased is who we think he is, then we were fighting on opposing sides, we were fighting a war that was caused by ideologies and fanned by politicians. I think I was about four months old when the Nationalist Government came to power, I had nothing to do with the formulation of their policies, but I had a lot to do with the symptoms of that rule and as I say, we fought on different sides. And it has occurred to me that I've been indicated that it's the sister of the deceased who is facing me now and it's just occurred to me that it could be my mother, my sister, my children sitting there now, because what happened to the deceased could quite easily have happened to me. I was involved in a lot of covert operations both inside and outside. Nothing, nothing like this I can tell you, but was often in the company of people, being all alone by myself, often in the company of people who thought I was one of them and had they discovered that I was not one of them, it would be my mother sitting there now, Sisi, you must understand that.
So I empathise with the family of the deceased, I would be very heartless if I did not do so. And for the pain that you have had to suffer, I apologise ...(Zulu), Sisi, I apologise.
MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we could take the adjournment now and would it be inconvenient if we could resume at 2 o'clock? Would that be okay?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
DONALD SPENCER GOLD: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: You are free to take off your coats if you find it necessary. Mr Booyens?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Gold, April 1980, Mr van Zyl says his recollection is, although he's not nearly as accurate as you as far as a specific date is concerned, is the second of the years, in other words after June. Could that also possibly be the case?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, it's possible, that's also possible.
MR BOOYENS: Fine. The communications addressed to you by Mr van Zyl prior to this incident, are you - I didn't quite understand you, are you saying there could have been one phone call or more than phone call, or are you saying there was actually more than one phone call?
MR GOLD: Well I don't know how many there were. There might have been only one, but I doubt it because you know there would have been maybe one to warn me that something is going down, another one to ask me if I'd got this or whether I'd got the car and to confirm that I'd be there. There was probably more than one, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: No, I can see that, but would you agree that the phone calls about this incident were all on the previous day?
MR GOLD: Oh yes, no doubt. Definitely, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: So if there were two, irrespective, two or three phone calls it doesn't really matter, but they were all on the day before the incident.
MR GOLD: I agree with that, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, would that really be relevant? They assembled there and they killed this man.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, no, the reason why I asked that question, I think it was Commissioner Lax that dealt with the previous knowledge that explosives will be necessary, so all I want to established is that there wasn't a week long planning beforehand and that is why I submit it is relevant.
As far as your relationship in the Security Police is concerned, would it be correct to say that in those days you were a very close-knit community and there was a great amount of trust between you as Security policemen?
MR GOLD: Definitely, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And you also accepted when Mr van Zyl approached you, that this would not be something that would be decided upon lightly and although you didn't, I don't recall you mentioning it, but do you recall that it was mentioned perhaps, that you perhaps just left it out, that head office okayed this operation?
MR GOLD: No, that wasn't told to me at all.
MR BOOYENS: You were not told about that.
MR GOLD: Not on - not, no. In fact, I always secretly hoped while we were waiting for this hearing, I secretly hoped that somewhere that would be the case, and I saw it in the bundle for the first time.
MR BOOYENS: Oh I see. But you didn't know it at the time.
MR GOLD: No.
MR BOOYENS: But when you saw a senior officer there you realised that this decision was taken much higher.
MR GOLD: Then I realised this was a heavy decision or something that was serious.
MR BOOYENS: I see. Insofar as your recollection of Mbazwaan is concerned, Mbazwaan is on the coast.
MR GOLD: It is although not in sight of the coast.
MR BOOYENS: Ja, ja, no. The conditions of the roads in those days, were they not merely - I'm specifically talking about 1980, were they not just basically sand roads?
MR GOLD: They were sands roads but they were pretty good.
MR BOOYENS: I see. You see because - and that's not really an important issue, but bearing in mind that these people came from the Johannesburg side, from the Transvaal side, they would have basically to drive past Josini and then turn back.
MR GOLD: That is true. I can see that I may mistaken, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: I see. I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Gold, the distance between Mbazwaan and Josini to the spot is approximately 70 kilometres, would you agree to that?
MR GOLD: Sir, if you told me that's what it is, I would have to agree with you.
MR PRINSLOO: And Pongola to the spot is approximately 50 kilometres, will you agree to that?
MR GOLD: I would have thought a little shorter than that, but if you tell me that I'll have to agree with you there as well.
MR PRINSLOO: Yes, it's approximately.
MR GOLD: Yes, Sir.
MR PRINSLOO: No further, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS SAMUEL: Mr Gold, you mentioned just before the adjournment that you had been involved in some sort of covert operations as well, what sort of operations were these?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, just being in the Security Branch was a covert operation, I mean everything you did was covert you know. For instance we might have got an instruction to go and keep surveillance at somebody's house, now you didn't want everybody in the neighbourhood to know you're doing this, so it was covert. The nature of our job was covert work.
MS SAMUEL: When did you come to realise that your job of that nature, covert? Was it after this incident?
MR GOLD: No, not at all, Mr Chairman, I realised that the moment that I applied to join the Security Branch from the Police College. I knew that was the nature of the work.
MS SAMUEL: So you were prepared to become involved in this sort of thing.
MR GOLD: Covert operations? Oh yes, as an Intelligence Officer, it's what I wanted to be ever since I was a little boy, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: And will it be correct then that later on you were prepared to get involved in bigger things, because you decided to become involved, as you mention on page 16, in the elimination of ANC guerrillas?
MR GOLD: Well let's put it to you this way, Mr Chairman, that was nothing really - the elimination of guerrillas, was nothing really new to anybody who worked in intelligence in this part of the world. I mean, like all of my colleagues, most of my colleagues, I'd been seconded to Special Branch in Rhodesia, like all of my colleagues I'd served in the then South West Africa, in anti-Swapo operations, and they were all covert operations. This was the nature of our work.
MS SAMUEL: Now this person you mentioned in your papers who was being called by the name Rupert, Robert, Robin, is it possible that he could have also been called by the names Rue, because the names are very similar?
MR GOLD: It's possible, yes, Mr Chairman. I mean I can't deny that, it is possible. I can't recollect hearing that one syllable, no.
MS SAMUEL: Could it have been Ronald?
MR GOLD: It could have been.
MS SAMUEL: Can you tell us exactly who was actually having a discussion with him whilst you were in the car?
MR GOLD: If we talk discussions ...(intervention)
MS SAMUEL: Did anybody speak to him?
MR GOLD: Yes, I think people did speak to him and it would have been, Apt van Zyl would have said one or two things to him. I might have said one or two things to him, although I wouldn't have had any business to say anything to him, but I might have. I might have heard -I don't know who spoke to him. But it's possible I spoke to him, it's possible Apt van Zyl spoke to him.
MS SAMUEL: Did Col Visser speak to him as well?
MR GOLD: That I cannot say, that I cannot say.
MS SAMUEL: You mentioned that this person appeared to have been drugged, is that correct?
MR GOLD: That was my perception at the time, which could be mistaken because when I first saw him he was sleeping. He slept all the way from where we met till when we got to the disused farmhouse and then he lay down again when we were at the farmhouse, on the grass in front of the old farmhouse. So, that's probably where I got the perception from.
MS SAMUEL: You see because you go on on page 16, after say that
"Visser and van Zyl were together ..."
... it's paragraph 36.
"Visser and van Zyl were together in a car and also in the same vehicle was an unknown black male who appeared to be sedated. I later found out that this black male had been drugged."
So it couldn't have been something that you perceived or assumed, somebody must have told you.
MR GOLD: Something has stuck in my mind, definitely, otherwise I would not have mentioned it, but I can't tell you exactly how or what or who told me or how it happened that I made that statement.
MS SAMUEL: So then this could not be a perception, somebody told you he was drugged and to you he appeared to be drugged, isn't that so?
MR GOLD: Maybe, maybe it was just a - maybe it was a mistake on my part, but I mean as far as I was concerned, when I made this statement - it always stuck in my mind that he was sedated. You must remember that I made this statement about 18 years after the incident, it's now almost 20 years after the incident.
MS SAMUEL: Yes, but you would not have stated that you later found out that the black male had been drugged, if this was merely something that you assumed.
MR GOLD: Yes. No, I can see whether the contention comes in, but I still say that it was a perception.
MS SAMUEL: Are you saying now that this was an error on your part, in stating that you had found out that this man ...(intervention)
MR GOLD: It's possible, it's possible it was an error, Ma'am.
MS SAMUEL: Now you went on to say that van Zyl had told you sometime during the morning that this black male had been an SAP Security Branch agent operating under Visser and he had sold out and become an ANC member.
MR GOLD: Yes.
MS SAMUEL: That is in paragraph 36 on page 16.
MR GOLD: Yes.
MS SAMUEL: Would it be correct to say then that this person, that Visser was the handler of this person or did you assume that he was handling him?
MR GOLD: I assumed that maybe he did have something to do with handling the man yes, but I couldn't say for sure.
MS SAMUEL: You see because van Zyl's statement today is different, he says when he was with this person in the car and with Visser, he doesn't say there was a handler, that Visser was a handler, he says there appeared to be a handler/informant relationship.
MR GOLD: Right.
MS SAMUEL: And when it was put to him, although in error, that he had stated that he was a handler, he corrected it immediately and said "No".
MR GOLD: Okay. Mr Chairman, one must remember that I didn't have any information of what went on between Apt van Zyl and Brig Visser, all I had was what Apt van Zyl told me and in the communicating of that information to me, somewhere along the line I must have assumed that Brig Visser may have been a handler. It's an innocent mistake.
MS SAMUEL: You see this is the second occasion you are saying that you assumed things. If something was told to you, you would now say it was told to you, but you keep assuming things. As soon as these discrepancies are being put to you, you are just assuming it.
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can't think of what else to tell you, that is exactly what happened, what I'm telling you.
MS SAMUEL: So can you tell us whether this was in fact told to you by Mr van Zyl, or are you assuming it now?
MR GOLD: It's possible that he told me that.
MS SAMUEL: Now did you know Visser?
MR GOLD: No, I met him for the first time on that day.
MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I don't see any contradiction between this and the evidence that has gone past so far. I think it's common cause to my mind, unless I'm misunderstanding something, that this informer was actually operating under Visser. That's exactly what the witness says. Unless I'm missing the point of this cross-examination, I see that as being Mr van Zyl's evidence.
MS SAMUEL: No, the point I wish to make, Mr Chairman, is that when that question was put through it was immediately corrected to say there was, there appeared to be a relationship, but he didn't say specifically - that is van Zyl, that Visser was the handler of this person. But Mr Gold says that he was told by van Zyl that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: On the evidence we have, Gold was stationed at Pietermaritzburg, van Zyl was stationed at Ladysmith, Visser in Soweto, the person that's been involved, who has been killed, in the Rand area he operated or he came from there. So clearly, Mr Gold saw this man for about an hour or two hours while he was still alive, van Zyl drove with him from Johannesburg, they didn't know him, on all the evidence we've got so far, and unless you've got evidence that they in fact knew him and they knew who the handler was, we're speculating about it and the witness who has to tell us more about it is Visser. Obviously they say "we don't know".
MS SAMUEL: Mr Gold, you mentioned that this incident has shocked you and numbed you and made you extremely upset, is that correct?
MR GOLD: That's quite correct.
MS SAMUEL: In fact it has had an impact on your life.
MR GOLD: It's been a cathartic experience for me, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: But you, Mr Gold, on your own on page 16, that's at paragraph 33, you yourself mentioned that you in fact had indicated on your own to Apt van Zyl that you were available to do this sort of work that is eliminating people.
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, that does not specify this kind of work, it specifies operations against terrorists. Now there's one this about hot blood and there's another thing about cold blood, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: So what you are in fact saying is that you were prepared to become involved in the elimination of ANC terrorists.
MR GOLD: I was prepared to become more involved in the fight against the ANC, because that's what I firmly believed at the time, that that was what was necessary for the country.
MS SAMUEL: And in the elimination of terrorists?
MR GOLD: The elimination of terrorists could be, could even mean putting them in jail you know, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: What about shooting them, killing them?
MR GOLD: If there was a gunfight yes, it would have to be done. During the attempt to arrest these people one might have to use that as a force option to effect the arrest of those people.
MS SAMUEL: So what you are saying now is this act was committed in cold blood then.
MR GOLD: There's no doubt about it.
MS SAMUEL: There was no reason to do it.
MR GOLD: I don't - no, that I didn't say, that I did not say. If I think back now, what I told you before about the build-up since I was a child and the propaganda that we were all subjected to and the kind of experience that I had in Rhodesia, the kind of experience I had in South West Africa, this was the build-up to that thing. I can't say - although personally I was shocked and I found it abhorrent, I have agonised for 20 years to try and make some sense out of it. I've agonised for 20 years to try and find some justification.
MS SAMUEL: But you yourself went ahead and even became satisfied at the end, satisfied yourself that in fact the body was completely destroyed or eliminated.
MR GOLD: Because that is what I was required to do as my job in that particular case, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: You mentioned earlier on that you cannot remember whether you were asked to in fact bring any particular weapon, is that correct?
MR GOLD: That's true, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: But you said it's possible that you could have been asked.
MR GOLD: It's possible, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: Did you not then realise at that stage that you were going to actually become involved in the elimination of the body and that some act would have had to be committed, or some murder would have had to be committed before that body was eliminated?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, the use of a silenced weapon does not mean necessarily that you're going to assassinate somebody, there are many reasons why you would use a silent weapon. For instance, if you had to do a house penetration where you had to arrest people in that house and there was a group of you penetrating that house and there'll be different people in different rooms, it might be necessary when you enter this room, instead of using a gun that is going to make a lot of noise to warn the other people in the other rooms, giving them cause to escape and maybe perhaps a reason to escape, you would use a silent weapon on the actual penetration. That is accepted practise. The British SAS use it, I mean it's all over the world, Russian Spes ...(indistinct), everybody uses that tactic.
MS SAMUEL: At which stage did you hand over this firearm to van Zyl?
MR GOLD: Now you see I'm not sure whether I did bring it or not, so I can't say exactly. I'm not sure whether I brought it or not, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: You also stated at page 18 of your application, paragraph 42, that explosives were packed on the body
"Van Zyl showed me how this was to be done as I had never blown up a body before."
MR GOLD: Well that is true, I had never blown up a body before and I have not done it since.
MS SAMUEL: Did van Zyl tell you or did you ask him to show you how to do this?
MR GOLD: No, we all did this together basically, but because I'd never done it before I was - actually as I said, I was quite numb about it, so he assisted in this operation.
MS SAMUEL: Was he the person who assisted you the most, in showing you how to place these explosives ...(intervention)
MR GOLD: I think in retrospect it was just the two of us. I can't recall if Mr Schoon was involved in that part of the operation or not, I cannot remember, but it was definitely the two of us.
MS SAMUEL: When van Zyl asked you to become involved in this operation, did you not ask him or did you not ask him exactly what was going to be done?
MR GOLD: Mr Chairman, I must say I was curious, but you know we had extremely strict rules about talking on the telephone, you never ever spoke in detail on the telephone at all, never. We had extremely strict rules about that. So no, I would not have asked him.
MS SAMUEL: What did you think he was going to ask you to do?
MR GOLD: Well from time to time, and this was often, this was a routine part of our job being in the Security Branch, we would intercept information at a certain time on a certain date, there would be a crossing through Mac's Pass or Makanya's Drift or something like, we would then go and lay ambush positions and we would wait for the people and they would be arrested. I thought it was another one of those.
MS SAMUEL: But when he asked you to bring explosives, did you not think that there was something more than just the mere arresting of the person involved?
MR GOLD: Well it was unusual, but the fact that he asked for them made me certain that I would bring them, or that they would be used if he did ask me.
MS SAMUEL: You accept then that the request to become involved in this did not come from any higher authority, it was a request made by van Zyl?
MR GOLD: Well not anymore, at the time he was high enough as far as I was concerned.
MS SAMUEL: You didn't take any steps to find out whether this came from headquarters?
MR GOLD: There again, Mr Chairman, our system of strict compartmentation would have prohibited that. If I'd have started asking questions it would have jeopardised my job, you just don't ask questions.
CHAIRPERSON: And was the position of the Colonel being present?
MR GOLD: Oh at that stage, then I realised, by then I realised that there was something going down when he was there. That confirmed for me that this thing was really important, as Mr van Zyl had told me.
MS SAMUEL: You have told us also about how sorry you feel about this whole thing and how remorseful you are about it.
MR GOLD: Oh yes.
MS SAMUEL: And you also told us that this is something that you, it's very painful to you, but this was part of a whole - that this was an ongoing thing that was going on during that time. Did you not realise that on the other side there was also a family that was now being torn apart as a result of these actions?
MR GOLD: Definitely, definitely, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: According to the family, as a result of what happened to this person two of his sons today are in fact in prison because of lack of fatherly care and nobody to bring them up.
MR GOLD: That is quite possible, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: Did that not come into your mind at that stage, did that not occur to you?
MR GOLD: Over the last 20 years I've agonised about such things.
MS SAMUEL: After this incident, did you continue to remain in the Security Forces, or did you in fact leave?
MR GOLD: I stayed for another year, two years.
MS SAMUEL: What made you then come back thereafter? Because you indicated some time in your papers that in 1984 you were recruited once again.
MR GOLD: Absolutely, Mr Chairman.
MS SAMUEL: In the light of the fact that you agonised over this whole thing, why did you decide to join the Security Forces once again?
MR GOLD: Well you see the job that I was offered the second time, was a job that was pure intelligence, it was just intelligence gathering. I wouldn't be put in a situation where I would have to do any shooting or firing, in fact I didn't even have a firearm. So it was pure intelligence work. And because of the enormity of the things that were happening, because of the savagery of some of the incidents that were happening, I could not stand on the side anymore and watch. I tried very hard, but I couldn't and I accepted the offer and I came back into the Security Branch, into the Intelligence Section, where I worked undercover.
MS SAMUEL: But as a result of becoming involved in this intelligence work, would that not have led to the same sort of situation where persons would have been eliminated?
MR GOLD: Not necessarily.
MS SAMUEL: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS SAMUEL
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Ms Samuel, the Scorpion name, is that known to your clients, the name that says Scorpion?
MS SAMUEL: Could I just take instructions?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MS SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, the name Scorpion is known to client. On his return from Angola he had taken on the name of Scorpion.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
Mr Gold, during the time when there was a conversation with the deceased, when you captured this name being called to him, what was the nature of conversation? Was it interrogatory or not?
MR GOLD: No, maybe "We've arrived, will you get into this car, get out of that car and get into this car, please get out of the car", that kind of thing.
MR MAPOMA: Was he, the deceased, in your presence interrogated or confronted at all about the allegations of double-agents?
MR GOLD: No, Mr Chairman.
MR MAPOMA: I would like to get your comment here. The deceased's family dispute that the deceased was a double-agent at all. Do you have any comment on that?
MR GOLD: I wouldn't have any comment about that, Mr Chairman, I would not have any comment. I was just told what I was told, further than that I had no knowledge of this person before that morning, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. What did they say in fact, was he an active member of the ANC? We've heard he took on this name coming back from Angola, was he an active MK member, what was his position?
MEMBER OF VICTIM'S FAMILY: A recruit.
MR MAPOMA: Their version is that he was an active MK operative.
ADV SANDI: I was going to say, Mr Mapoma, I hear you saying that the family of the deceased deny that the deceased was a double-agent, but is it not in the nature of being a double-agent - I'm not suggesting for a moment that the deceased was such a double-agent, but isn't that something normally people would keep in secrecy?
MR MAPOMA: Yes, that ...(intervention)
ADV SANDI: They would not even tell their spouses about it.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, it does happen, Chair, but I wanted to put this version because if the victim's relatives testify they may delve further on why they come with that version. I mean in substance than just putting the version now as I do.
I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR WILLS: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS
MR LAX: Just one thing, Chair.
Mr Gold, I'm just puzzled by this aspect in the papers at page 18, that was alluded to by Ms Samuel and that is the question of van Zyl showing you how this was to be done and you said you might be mistaken about that. Why would you have said it in the first place? I mean you didn't know how to do it yourself and so the inference is that somebody showed you what to do because you were the expert in explosives but you hadn't done this sort of thing before.
MR GOLD: I think I can explain this, Mr Chairman. I think Mr van Zyl could see that I was shocked and numbed by this whole thing and I think his assistance there was due to what he saw. I think that's what happened there.
MR LAX: So are you saying rather than showing you what to do he just took the lead and took over?
MR GOLD: He didn't take the lead, he just helped me with what I was doing I would say.
MR LAX: So it doesn't clearly express what you intended to say, is that what you're saying?
MR GOLD: Not really.
MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR GOLD: Thank you, Sir.
MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, is Mr Gold excused at this point in time?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could he be excused? Any objections? On the condition that if we need him we'll let you know and he kindly shouldn't go as far as an air flight from Durban if possible.
MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I call Mr Visser.
