CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning. We want to start the proceedings. For the record it is Monday the 15th of November 1999. It's a hearing of the Amnesty Committee being held at the Durban Christian Centre. The Panel is presided over by myself, Denzil Potgieter, I am assisted by Advocates Bosman and Sandi. We will be starting off with the amnesty application of Zanzile Terrence Dlamini, amnesty reference AM6629/96. We ask the legal representatives just to put themselves on record. Mr Panday.
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I appear for Zanzile Terrence Dlamini, initial S, surname Panday, P-A-N-D-A-Y.
CHAIRPERSON: And Leader of Evidence.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Panday is there anything else you want to put on record or are you ready to present the evidence of your client?
MR PANDAY: Ready to present the evidence.
ZANZILE TERRENCE DLAMINI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday.
MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. Before the evidence gets led, I would just like to place on record Chair that in this matter the investigative unit have managed to trace a victim W/O Liebenberg who was a policeman. He is now based in Graaf-Reinet, he is no longer in the police service. He was duly served with a notice and a communication has been had between him and the investigative unit and as well as our logistics officer. He was well-advised of his rights to be present here and as well as the facilities that the TRC is prepared to make available for him to be transported to this venue, but he has indicated that he is not interested in the matter, so he won't be coming. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Are you happy in those circumstances that we proceed with the application?
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. In the circumstances I ask that the Committee proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll do that, we'll proceed with the application and we note what you have placed on record.
Yes, Mr Panday, you can proceed.
MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, could you please state to the Commission where you are currently residing?
MR DLAMINI: At present I am reside at Rapal No 2, which is in 48 Prince Street, Durban.
MR PANDAY: And what is your current employment status, Mr Dlamini?
MR DLAMINI: I am employed by the South African Police.
MR PANDAY: And when did you resume employment with the South African Police, Mr Dlamini?
MR DLAMINI: On the 1st of April 1995.
MR PANDAY: And where are you currently based, Mr Dlamini?
MR DLAMINI: At the North Beach at the Tourist Support Unit.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it correct that during the year of 1986 you were convicted of having contravened the Terrorism Act?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: And that you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 10 years?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini during the period of 1986, were you a member of any political organisation?
CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer that, in which court were you convicted and sentenced?
MR PANDAY: Pietermaritzburg Supreme Court.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Thank you Mr Panday.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini during the period of 1986, were you a member of any political organisation?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.
MR PANDAY: What is the name of that political organisation?
MR DLAMINI: The African National Congress.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when did you join the African National Congress?
MR DLAMINI: I joined that in 1982.
MR PANDAY: And what position did you hold in the African National Congress?
MR DLAMINI: I was an ordinary member.
MR PANDAY: And was there any specific division of the African National Congress that you were assigned to?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.
MR PANDAY: Was there any specific division of the African National Congress that you were assigned to?
MR DLAMINI: No.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it correct that during 86 you had attacked a mobile police station as well as a school, for which you apply for amnesty today?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: The attack that you launched against the school and the mobile police station, who did you receive the orders from?
MR DLAMINI: We received our instructions from Ravi, who was the Commander at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the name? Just repeat the name please, Interpreter.
INTERPRETER: Ralph. I beg your pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Mr Panday. Carry on.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, does Ralph have a surname as well?
MR DLAMINI: No I do not remember his surname.
MR PANDAY: What was Ralph's position in the organisation?
MR DLAMINI: He was our Commander.
MR PANDAY: And I take it that Ralph also belonged to the ANC?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
MR PANDAY: Now, at the time when you received the orders from Ralph, where were you based?
MR DLAMINI: In Swaziland.
MR PANDAY: And ...
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I missed it, who was based in Swaziland? The witness or Ralph.
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the witness.
CHAIRPERSON: The witness, the applicant?
MR PANDAY: Yes. Mr Dlamini, you were based in Swaziland and where was Ralph based?
MR DLAMINI: He was also in Swaziland at the time.
MR PANDAY: Now, do you know who gave Ralph the instructions to attack the two places?
MR DLAMINI: No, I do not have knowledge thereof.
MR PANDAY: You mentioned that you were based in Swaziland. How did you come into South Africa from Swaziland?
MR DLAMINI: Through Ingwavuma.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you linked to Umkhonto weSizwe, were you part of the military machinery?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive military training.
MR DLAMINI: That is also correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were operating within MK when you got the orders in Swaziland to come and execute here in KwaZulu Natal, here in Durban?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.
MR PANDAY: Do you know of any persons that assisted you in coming into the country?
MR DLAMINI: There were people who assisted.
MR PANDAY: What are their names?
MR DLAMINI: It was Charles Ndaba.
MR PANDAY: And where is Charles Ndaba now?
MR DLAMINI: As far as I know, he was murdered by the boers, they threw him into a river somewhere in KwaZulu.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, this attack that was launched against the two places, where did you the bombs from, or the grenades that were specifically used?
MR DLAMINI: I crossed the border from Swaziland and they were in my possession.
MR PANDAY: And who had given these grenades to you?
MR DLAMINI: They were given to me by Ralph.
MR PANDAY: Would you happen to know how Ralph was able to obtain such items?
MR DLAMINI: No, I do not.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, after you, or before we go to that question - were you assisted in the province by any other persons to attack the two places?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, there were.
MR PANDAY: And what are the names of the persons?
MR DLAMINI: Baba Majola and Mdudusi Kala.
MR PANDAY: And do you know the whereabouts of the two persons who assisted you?
MR DLAMINI: Unfortunately they are both deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: What were their positions? How do they fit into this whole operation?
MR DLAMINI: I operated with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they also part of MK, or where did they fit in?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, they were MK members whom I had recruited and trained.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Thank you. Mr Panday.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, did these two people enter South Africa with you from Swaziland or did you meet them in South Africa?
MR DLAMINI: I met them inside the country.
MR PANDAY: And where were they based inside the country?
MR DLAMINI: At Sobanto, Pietermaritzburg.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall what positions they held?
MR DLAMINI: We did not have positions.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, the police station that was bombed, do you recall the day that it was bombed?
MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot be certain, but I think it was on a Wednesday or Thursday.
MR PANDAY: If I had to put it to you that it was more specifically on the 13th of August, 1986, would I be correct in that assumption?
MR DLAMINI: I would not dispute that because I'm also not very certain.
MR PANDAY: The Sobanto School that was used as a military base, was that bombed on the same day as well?
MR DLAMINI: No.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall the day or month that it was bombed?
MR DLAMINI: I cannot recall it because it happened 10 years ago.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, the decision that was taken to bomb the school was obviously by Ralph as you have testified, now more importantly, by bombing the school and the mobile police station, what was to be achieved?
MR DLAMINI: Let me start by saying that at that time there was a struggle to end the apartheid system in South Africa, so police and soldiers were protecting that system of government. That is why some of the operations were directed at the police because they stood in the way of getting to our objective which was toppling the apartheid government.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, the Sobanto area, or the area where the police station and mobile, the school and the mobile police station was, do you recall what political area it was? Which party was dominant in that area?
MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot be certain but there was a political organisation that existed at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Which one? Which political party was dominant in the Sobanto area at that stage?
MR DLAMINI: It was the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when, you say you can't remember the specific date of the incident at the Sobanto School, in which year was it? Was it in the same year, was it also in 1986, the same year as you attacked the mobile police station?
MR DLAMINI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't have a better idea as to when in the year that happened? You can't remember the month?
MR DLAMINI: As I mentioned before, a long time has elapsed, so I do not remember.
CHAIRPERSON: You can only remember it was in that year during 1986?
MR DLAMINI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Mr Panday, sorry.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, just to assist Mr Chairman a bit further, could you recall if the attack was after the bombing of the mobile police station or before the bombing of the mobile station, the attack on Sobanto High School?
MR DLAMINI: The first attack was on the police station and then the military base school was the second.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, do you know of any particular reason why the military base was established in the Sobanto area?
MR DLAMINI: As I mentioned before the police and soldiers were the protectors of the apartheid system. At that time the country seemed ungovernable and so they were put there to watch the situation and be able to curb whatever activities are directed towards the government.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, after the attack on the school and the military base, did you become aware of any persons that were injured?
MR DLAMINI: Yes.
MR PANDAY: Do you know any of the names of the victims?
MR DLAMINI: I do not know their names except for the fact that I heard from the evidence leader today that some white person was injured.
MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, you indicated that in your application, that you received a report later about the injuries to persons. Who forwarded this report to you?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat that question.
MR PANDAY: The report that you received about persons who were injured after the attack on the police station and the high school, do you know the name of the person who gave you this report?
MR DLAMINI: There is no specific person who gave me the report but the attack was mentioned in the media so I think I learned of it that way.
MR PANDAY: And Mr Dlamini, after the attack on the school and the mobile police station, were you arrested soon thereafter?
MR DLAMINI: No, it was a long while before I was arrested.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall roughly how long later?
MR DLAMINI: I think two or three months elapsed before my arrest.
MR PANDAY: And during the period of the two or three months prior to your arrest, where were you in that period?
MR DLAMINI: I was at Sobanto.
MR PANDAY: And while in Sobanto, were you hiding from the police?
MR DLAMINI: I resided in a house that the police did not know about because at the time our organisations were banned so if you were found out or discovered you would be arrested, so I can say yes, I was hiding.
CHAIRPERSON: You were operating underground, your operations?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you were convicted, the terrorism charge was it in respect of both these two incidents, the mobile police station as well as the school, both those attacks?
MR DLAMINI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And what sentence were you given?
MR DLAMINI: Ten years.
CHAIRPERSON: Ten years. And you spent some time at Robben Island?
MR DLAMINI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were released, you were admitted to Robben Island on the 25th of August 1987, is that right?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct. I cannot remember the month quite well.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were released on the 27th of April 1991?
MR DLAMINI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Panday, is there anything else?
MR PANDAY: Just one further question, Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, when you were underground in the house that you mentioned, was anyone assisting from remaining underground?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, there were persons who assisted me.
MR PANDAY: Do you recall any of the person's names?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.
MR PANDAY: What are they?
MR DLAMINI: Zanele Ngubane and Moses Jabulane Mkhize, Baba Majola and Mdudusi Kala.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned the two persons Baba Majola and Zanele, the deceased, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Baba is the one who is deceased. Zanele is still alive.
MR PANDAY: Okay and the other persons that assisted you, do you know what has become of them?
MR DLAMINI: Yes ...(mike turned off)
MR PANDAY: And where are they residing?
MR DLAMINI: At Pietermaritzburg.
MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, just one further question. Did you benefit financially from your attack on the mobile police station and Sobanto School?
MR DLAMINI: No. There were no financial benefits that we received for carrying out our operations. It was just on a volunteer basis to topple the apartheid government.
MR PANDAY: In so far as your application is concerned, besides what you've already mentioned to the Commission, is there anything further you would like to put to the Commission or inform the Commission of?
MR DLAMINI: No.
MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday. Mr Mapoma, any questions?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Dlamini, Zanele Ngubane and Moses Mkhize were your co-accused, is that correct, when you were convicted?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.
MR MAPOMA: Were they involved in these particular operations, that is the attack on the school and the police station?
MR DLAMINI: No.
MR MAPOMA: Are those the offences for which they were convicted as well, or were they convicted of different acts?
MR DLAMINI: Different cases.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson, I got no further questions
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: No Mr Chairman.
ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, any re-examination?
MR PANDAY: No Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other evidence you are tendering?
MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant's case?
MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma are you tendering any evidence?
MR MAPOMA: No further evidence Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, have you got any submissions, Mr Panday?
MR PANDAY: I shall not burden the Commission too long.
MR PANDAY IN ARGUMENT: It is quite clear from the evidence led by the applicant that the purpose of the attack on the mobile police station as well as the Sobanto High School that was used as a temporary military base, was obviously for the furtherance of a political objective, a political cause of that of the ANC which at the time was, as it is common knowledge, a liberation movement and these attacks were solely for the purpose of uplifting that liberation organisation and furthering the cause of the organisation.
From the evidence it may be inferred, or it is clear that the existence of the military base as well as the police station would have suppressed this organisation and the attacks were purely for that purpose and as such the applicant was acting for the promotion of the liberation organisation and accordingly we submit that he should be entitled to the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday. Any submissions Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you don't have anything further?
MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, that concludes the formal aspect of this application. The Panel will endeavour to formulate a decision in this matter as soon as circumstances permit when we will notify the parties. So under those circumstances, the decision in this matter is reserved.
MR PANDAY: As Mr Chairman pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, we thank you in anticipation. We know you've got some further business here, but thank you for your assistance.
MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may I be temporarily excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.
MR PANDAY: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just switch off that microphone as well while you are at it? Thank you very much. Mr Mapoma, what is the next matter?
MR MAPOMA: The next matter Chairperson will be that of Osmond Nkwanyana and Mpilo Khuzwayo. They are both legally represented but I do not see their legal representatives here now. Perhaps ...
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps somebody will just have a, will just see where they are. Both the applicants are here, are they?
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Messrs Nkwanyana and Khuzwayo.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, they are here, in fact the legal representatives are here as well. I wonder Chairperson ...
CHAIRPERSON: Were they possibly still consulting with them?
MR MAPOMA: Yes when we are dealing with this matter, I wonder Chairperson, if it's not a convenient time to break perhaps? I see it's 11 o'clock.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I wonder, can somebody just ascertain whether they are able to proceed? Oh, okay. You don't have your list of ...(microphone turned off)
