CHAIRPERSON: ... the legal representatives to identify themselves on record for the purposes of that record.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Ms Mohamed from the firm Dehal Incorporated, on record for the applicant Mr Nyathikazi.
MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman. I represent the victims of the Nyathikazi application, namely the Ntuni family and my name is S Panday.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday while you represent the victims, how many are there that you represent?
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman it's the Ntuni family, that's the mother and the brother who are present. I'm given to understand that at the time of the incident the deceased was not married.
MR LAX: Did he have any children?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he may still have children.
MR PANDAY: No, from what I understand there are no children.
CHAIRPERSON: For what it's worth, I think only the mother then becomes the victim in terms of the definition of the Act, while his brother may very well be an interested party.
MR PANDAY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Are they opposing this application?
MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman, they are opposing.
CHAIRPERSON: On what basis?
MR PANDAY: On the basis that they believe that the act was not politically motivated and the basis for the non political motivation, that the family recognises the applicant to have more criminal agendas behind the incident as opposed to political agenda.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyathikazi, what language would you prefer to use?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Zulu.
DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, before you have a bundle of documents. I'm going to refer you to that bundle of documents, okay. Now isn't it correct that a copy of this bundle was handed to you at prison last week?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Have you read the bundle and familiarised yourself with the contents?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you. Now I'm going to take you to the bundle itself. Isn't it correct that you've made two applications for amnesty, you filled in two forms for application for amnesty?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Okay. Now look at pages 1 to 3 of the bundle. Is it correct that this is the first application that you filled in and it's dated the 22nd of ...(intervention)
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: It was signed on the 3rd of May?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Look at the signature on page 3, is that your signature?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, it is.
MS MOHAMED: Okay. I'm going to refer you to the next application from pages 4 to 6 and is that your signature on page 6?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you. Now on pages 14 to 18 of this bundle, there's a hand-written affidavit. It was drawn on the instructions that you gave to Ms Mkhize when she called at ...(indistinct) prison, isn't that correct?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Now Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that you are applying for amnesty for the murder of Zwelibanzi Ntuni which occurred on the 14th of April 1994?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: Isn't it also correct that you were convicted for this offence?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: What - sorry, what sentence did you receive?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the date of the murder?
MS MOHAMED: 14th of April 1994. Now Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that in the early 1980's you were a member of the ANC?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MS MOHAMED: What was your role within the ANC?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was a member of the Street Committee.
MS MOHAMED: Did you occupy this position throughout your involvement with the ANC, or did your membership at any stage change?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, I was a member of the Street Committee.
MS MOHAMED: Did your membership of the ANC change at any stage?
MR LAX: Sorry, what do you mean, did his membership change?
MS MOHAMED: Sorry Mr Lax, I'm trying to ascertain whether he remained a member of the Street Committee throughout his membership of the ANC.
MR LAX: When did you join the ANC?
MR NYATHIKAZI: During the 80's.
MR LAX: And you remained a member until this incident?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MR LAX: When did you join the Street Committee?
MR NYATHIKAZI: In 1984.
MR LAX: 1984?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MR LAX: And you were part of that structure until this incident?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes. I was also involved in other activities for example marshalling during ANC activities.
MS MOHAMED: Mr Nyathikazi, you say in your affidavit on page 11 that you joined MK.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
MS MOHAMED: When did you join MK?
MR NYATHIKAZI: In 1989.
MS MOHAMED: Where did you receive your training?
MR NYATHIKAZI: In Tanzania.
MS MOHAMED: And when did you return to South Africa?
MR NYATHIKAZI: In April 1991.
MS MOHAMED: Now Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you to the day in question of this incident, that is the 14th of April 1994. Now on the day in question, were you in the vicinity of Road 8 in Chesterville?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was at Road 8.
MS MOHAMED: Who was with you?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was with Jabulani Mzweli.
MS MOHAMED: What were you doing there?
MR NYATHIKAZI: We were distributing pamphlets about the upcoming elections.
MS MOHAMED: Okay and then what happened?
MR NYATHIKAZI: We were on a motor bike in Road 8 when two men approached. One was Zwelibanzi Ntuni and the other was Wiseman. They came closer to us and asked are we continuing with distributing these pamphlets. They then started shooting at us at which time we fled.
MR LAX: Sorry. Was the Wiseman, Wiseman Ntuni? What's his surname?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I forget his surname.
MS MOHAMED: And then what happened?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Jabulani was hit on the leg. but we managed to flee although we parted ways as we were running away.
MS MOHAMED: Okay now isn't it correct that at some stage you later returned to the scene of this shooting?
MR NYATHIKAZI: That is correct.
MS MOHAMED: Okay. How did you proceed to the scene, in other words?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I then went back to the scene. On my way I met Sitembiso Msimanga and Robert Ngobane walking down the road. They accompanied me are inquired what had been happening because they had heard gun shots. I told them what had happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Who were the two people, Robert Ngobane and who else?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Sitembiso Msimanga.
CHAIRPERSON: Tembo?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Sitembiso.
MS MOHAMED: Okay and then what happened?
MR NYATHIKAZI: We later met Mondo Mkhize and they all accompanied me to go look for the motor bike and the pamphlets. When we arrived at the scene, we could not find that motor bike, so we turned back along Road 13.
MS MOHAMED: Okay. Then what happened?
MR NYATHIKAZI: As we were walking along the road we met Mondo Mkhize's girlfriend.
MS MOHAMED: What's her name?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I have forgotten her name.
MS MOHAMED: Okay, then what happened when you met her?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Mondo and his girlfriend stopped and chatted for some time. As they were parting, the girlfriend indicated using her eyes, pointing towards the side. When I followed her eyes, I noticed some people standing around there. The people were standing next to a tree in a certain house. Mondo then went towards that house and went inside the premises.
MS MOHAMED: And then what happened?
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, why did you go back to Road 8?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I went to look for the pamphlets that were left there, as well as the motor bike.
CHAIRPERSON: Now if you had found it what would you have done with it?
MS MOHAMED: I would have taken them back to my home.
CHAIRPERSON: Which is where, of which was where?
MR NYATHIKAZI: It was in Road 15.
CHAIRPERSON: Now Road 8 and Road 15, are they parallel to each other, or do they run off each other, or what? How do you - okay, carry on, answer.
MR NYATHIKAZI: They are a distance away from one another.
CHAIRPERSON: Parallel with each other, or do they run at right angles or any angle to each other?
MR NYATHIKAZI: They are not parallel, they are far from each other and they are not in a straight line.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the shortest distance one has to use to get from Road 8 to Road 15?
MR NYATHIKAZI: You go along Road 13 and then that takes you to Road 14 and then you would get to Road 15.
CHAIRPERSON: Now is Road 13 at right angles to Road 8, or is there another way you could use ...
MR NYATHIKAZI: They are at right angles.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there another route you could use to get to Road 15 from Road 8?
MR NYATHIKAZI: You could also go along Road 1, but that will take you longer.
CHAIRPERSON: Now these people who had objections to your distributing pamphlets and so forth, were they known to you?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, I knew Zwelibanzi well, but the other one was just a resident who was not close to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Now were they known political opponents to...
MR NYATHIKAZI: One that I was aware of as being a political opponent was Zweli who to me was similar to an askari.
CHAIRPERSON: Now did you know where he was staying?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, he resided at Road 18.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. And in Road 13 were there any known political opponents there?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, prior to this incident, there were some people who resided at Road 13 who had been our political opponents, but that was no longer the case. The war was over.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, tell me, when you went back to Road 8, you say that you went there to recover the pamphlets and the motor cycle.
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No I was not armed.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have intention of fighting with anybody at that time?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not have any intention at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, when you went up Road 13, did you have any intention of fighting with anybody?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, there was no intention.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I see in your affidavit, you say that you did not - well, Ms Mohamed, this affidavit that I have is not signed.
MS MOHAMED: Sorry, Mr Chairman, the statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Well whatever, it's not signed. Have you got one that's signed?
MS MOHAMED: I'm sorry ...(indistinct), but the contents have been read to him and he understood and confirmed that.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, can I rely on the contents in order to ask him certain questions?
MS MOHAMED: Yes, Judge.
CHAIRPERSON: I see in this statement that you intend signing, you say you associated yourself with the ultimate action of killing the deceased on the basis that it was political. Now I need you to deal with the following issue. If you had no intention while being in Road 13 of even fighting with anybody, how could you associate yourself with the killing, on whatever basis?
MR NYATHIKAZI: At the time that he was killed, I was also present.
CHAIRPERSON: But you had no intention to kill him, isn't it?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't even have any intention of fighting with him?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I had no intention of fighting with him.
CHAIRPERSON: And actually you don't know why he was killed?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I learned about it later during that day.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but at the time when he was killed, you didn't know why he was killed?
MR NYATHIKAZI: At that time I did not know the reason.
CHAIRPERSON: And you did not contribute to his death, is that not so, in any way?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not contribute anything.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mohamed.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you back to a point earlier in your evidence when you said that, this is the point at which Mondo's girlfriend made some eye signs and you followed her gaze to a point where you noticed people standing next to a tree and there was a certain house alongside this and Mondo then went inside that house.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, that's what happened.
MS MOHAMED: Okay, now where were you when this was happening?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was standing on the road with Robert Sitembiso.
MS MOHAMED: Do you know why Mondo went into that house?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, Mondo went in there to shoot at the deceased.
MS MOHAMED: Do you know whose house that was?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I only knew the son by the name of Hewa who resided at that home, who was a taxi driver.
MS MOHAMED: Okay now when Mondo went into that house, what did you do?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I remained standing on the road. When the gun shots went off, we all scattered in different directions.
MS MOHAMED: Could you see who was firing the gun shots?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
MS MOHAMED: And who was that?
MR NYATHIKAZI: It was Mondo Mkhize.
MS MOHAMED: Now when you said that you heard the gunshots going off, you all scattered. Where did you go to?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I ran towards Road 14.
MR LAX: Sorry, can I just interpose. Why did you run away?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I could not tell who was shooting who because I began to hear gun shots from the direction of the tree.
MR LAX: But you've just said that you saw Mondo shooting.
MR NYATHIKAZI: That's correct.
MR LAX: So who else was shooting?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not see anybody else shooting.
MR LAX: So again, why did you run away?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was trying to save myself, because the bullets were flying all over.
MR LAX: Was that because Mondo was shooting randomly?
MR NYATHIKAZI: He was shooting towards the deceased.
MR LAX: Well then how could bullets be flying all over, if he was shooting at the deceased and not in your direction?
MR NYATHIKAZI: There were shots that were coming from the direction of the tree and I was not sure if the people at that house were also returning fire, but I did not see anyone.
MR LAX: You didn't see anyone shooting at you.
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not see anyone shooting at us.
MR LAX: Did you see any flashes of gunfire coming from that house?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not see any gunfire because there was a fence.
MR LAX: Please continue.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you.
MR NYATHIKAZI: I fled and later met Robert Sitembiso and Mondo Mkhize. I inquired if no one amongst them was injured and they confirmed that no one had been injured.
CHAIRPERSON: What is Robert's surname?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Ngobane.
MS MOHAMED: What else did they tell you?
MR NYATHIKAZI: It's only Mondo who told me that he has shot at the deceased and he was not sure whether he had died.
MS MOHAMED: So when did you hear that the deceased had died?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I heard when I was informed that police had been at my home.
MS MOHAMED: Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you to an affidavit in this bundle ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on there, when you were in Road 13 and Mkhize's girlfriend indicated the presence of these people, as I understand you, you say this group of people were standing near a tree.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And at some stage during your testimony, you said you could not see who was actually shooting, because they were at this tree, did I understand you correctly?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Will you please repeat?
CHAIRPERSON: For some reason you could not see who was shooting there in Road 13, correct?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I said Mondo was shooting but I did not see anybody from amongst those people who was shooting.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you know who these people were?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I just knew the girls from the township as well as the deceased and Wiseman.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you identify them when you were there standing in Road 13 when Mkhize's girlfriend indicated or pointed to this group of people?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I could clearly identify the men from the clothes that they were wearing on the previous occasion when they shot at us.
CHAIRPERSON: So you knew at that stage that they were possibly armed, correct?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you run away at that stage already, because last time you had met them, they were shooting at you?
MR NYATHIKAZI: As I have mentioned before, there was a tree that blocked my view and they were also in the company of women, so I did not know whether they were armed.
MR LAX: But these were the people who had given you trouble before.
CHAIRPERSON: Shortly before.
MR LAX: According to you, at any rate.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you run away from your attackers, people who were not your friends, they were trying to kill you.
MR NYATHIKAZI: As I have already mentioned there were women, but I was worried because I realised that Zwelibanzi was amongst them. This also happened very quickly, because when Mondo went inside the house, went inside the yard, he just started shooting and that was when I ran away.
MR LAX: How far were you standing from this house where the tree was in the garden?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was on the road, perhaps on that opposite wall to where I'm sitting.
MR LAX: About four, five metres, just the width of an ordinary road?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, it was a tarred road.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Mkhize was going to go there and shoot the deceased?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not know that he was going to go in there.
MR LAX: Did you not know that that was the deceased's girlfriend's house?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not know that.
MR LAX: But you knew the deceased.
MR NYATHIKAZI: yes, I knew him.
MR LAX: Well, didn't you know who his girlfriend was, if you knew him?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not know his girlfriend, I only learned about it at the trial.
MS MOHAMED: Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you now to the bundle of documents. Isn't it correct that you are aware that Mondo Mkhize has put up an affidavit which is included in this bundle?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, I'm aware of it.
MS MOHAMED: Now in that affidavit on page 20 in paragraph 11 Mr Mkhize sets out the reason for killing the deceased. Now do you care to comment on that paragraph?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I would say that I was not aware that Mondo was going to do anything to the deceased, because as we had been together, he had not shown any signs of wanting to harm anyone.
MR LAX: Yes, you were asked to comment on the reason he gives here and the reason he gives here is that there was a grudge between them. He says he killed him out of a grudge, as mentioned earlier on, which I do not consider as political from my point of view. That's what you were asked to comment on.
MR NYATHIKAZI: As I've already mentioned, I met Mondo on the way. He did mention afterwards that he had killed the deceased because of a certain grudge, because the deceased had killed his friend. I think what he wrote here was advancing his reasons that he had a grudge against the deceased and for him it was not politically motivated.
MS MOHAMED: Isn't it correct that you associated yourself with the death of the deceased in this matter?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, I did associate myself with his death because when he was killed, I was also present, that is why I have applied for amnesty, for the reason that I was present when Mondo shot Zwelibanzi.
CHAIRPERSON: I've never known a "deader" horse to rise.
MS MOHAMED: Sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, there's also an affidavit in this bundle which has been put up by Wiseman Ntuni.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
MS MOHAMED: Now in his affidavit he says that Zwelibanzi was still a member of MK as at the date of his death.
MR NYATHIKAZI: I believe he has written so because the deceased was his brother and also for the reason that he had been to exile.
MR LAX: Could I ask a question? If you had a problem with this deceased, why didn't you just call him before the Comrades Committee of MK as existed in most places, and arrange for him to be disciplined according to your code? If he was a comrade who was behaving badly, why didn't you just call him before the Street Committee or before the MK Committee?
MR NYATHIKAZI: His behaviour indicated that he was no longer part of MK. He behaved like an askari, so it was not easy to call him to a meeting where there would be people who would not necessarily be his comrades.
MR LAX: Well, did you at least report him to your committee?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes.
MR LAX: And what did you do ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) Please continue.
MR NYATHIKAZI: Ms Mohamed we're waiting for you.
MS MOHAMED: Oh I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you any questions?
MR PANDAY: In the light of the evidence produced, not too many questions at all.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised that you have one.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that when the incident at Road 8 had completed, or when you were attacked in Road 8, that incident was completed and you had no intention of seeking any form of retribution?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not have any intention of retribution.
MR PANDAY: And isn't it also correct that you came across Mondo Mkhize by chance on the day in question?
MR NYATHIKAZI: Yes, it was not pre-planned.
MR PANDAY: And you would have no idea of what sort of plan Mondo Mkhize had against Zweli Ntuni?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not.
MR PANDAY: So finally isn't it correct that based on your evidence there is no way that you can be associated with the killing of Zweli Ntuni?
MR NYATHIKAZI: What associates me with his death is the fact that I was present when he was shot.
MR PANDAY: Isn't it also correct then that the killing of Zweli Ntuni by Mondo Mkhize was not political?
MR NYATHIKAZI: As far as Mondo is concerned, it was not politically motivated, but that does not apply to me.
MR PANDAY: Why do you say it does not apply to you? You had no idea that Zweli was going to be killed on that day.
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not know.
MR PANDAY: So if you did not know Zweli was going to be killed on that day, you cannot know about his intentions.
MR NYATHIKAZI: I did not know what he had intended.
MR PANDAY: Now the family of Zwe Ntuni maintains that Zwe was an ANC member and supporter right up until the day he was murdered. Why do you suggest differently?
MR NYATHIKAZI: I believe that Zwelibanzi in whatever he did, he may not have told them what his activities were at the time. I may understand that they are heartbroken because they lost their son.
MR PANDAY: When did you learn that he is no longer an ANC member? In what year did you learn this?
MR NYATHIKAZI: It was after a while.
MR PANDAY: In what year? Can you recall the year that you learned that he was no longer ANC according to you?
MR NYATHIKAZI: In 1993.
MR PANDAY: And did you report this to anybody?
JUDGE POTGIETER: It's hearsay, why must we - what is the value of this, he heard somebody say something?
MR PANDAY: I accept, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE POTGIETER: How does it help us?
MR PANDAY: I accept the point Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Nyathikazi, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY
MS THABETHE: Just a few questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Nyathikazi, according to a statement written by Lindiwe, the girlfriend to the deceased on page 29, she says she saw you, amongst others, and she took note of you because she knew you to be their enemies - to be enemies with and you were harassing the deceased, Nkosinati Ntuni. Do you want to respond to that?
MR NYATHIKAZI: As a girlfriend, she had lost her loved one so she could very well say anything.
MS THABETHE: And you were not enemies?
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, we were not enemies.
MS THABETHE: ...(indistinct)
MR NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not.
MS THABETHE: Also I just want to clarify one more factor. According to Noma Langa in her statement on page 33 of the bundle and Mantombi Ngobane on page 36, they both say that they saw you together with a group, you were all carrying guns, hand guns, yet in your evidence you've stated that you did not carry a gun. What ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)
MR NYATHIKAZI: I was not carrying a firearm. She may have seen us on the street, but it is not true that I was carrying a firearm.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
MS MOHAMED: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, are there any other witnesses you're going to call?
MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses to call.
MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, it's just the brother of the victim. I'll just be very brief with him and that's merely to confirm his continued existence with the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Whatever, I mean you can call him.
MR PANDAY: Wiseman Ntuni.
WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Wiseman Ntuni, what is your relationship to the deceased Zwe Ntuni?
MR NTUNI: He was my brother.
MR PANDAY: Is it correct that you had deposed to an affidavit for the purposes of the application of Dannyboy Nyathikazi, opposing the application?
MR NTUNI: That's correct.
MR PANDAY: I'm just showing you pages 26, from page 26 to 27, is that the affidavit that you've deposed to?
MR NTUNI: Yes, it is.
MR PANDAY: And do you confirm the contents of that to be true and correct?
MR NTUNI: Yes, I do.
MR PANDAY: Now in the evidence given by the applicant, he alleges that your brother Zwe Ntuni had defected from the ANC. Can you comment on that evidence?
MR NYATHIKAZI: He had not defected, he was still a member of the ANC.
MR PANDAY: And more particularly on the day that he was murdered, was he still a member of the ANC?
MR NTUNI: Yes, he was.
MR PANDAY: Now in your affidavit in paragraph 4 you mention of there being gangs, Mondo and his gang, now do you know what effect this gang had on your brother, or were there any problems between this gang and your brother?
MR NTUNI: They were a group of gangsters who used to shoot at one another in the township.
MR PANDAY: When you say: "They were a group of gangsters), who are you referring to?
MR NTUNI: I would say all of them belonged to different gangs, because Dannyboy belonged to one group and my brother to another, but this had nothing to do with the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of gangs were they, tsotsies?
MR NTUNI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Interfered with the community and to fight against each other?
MR NTUNI: They were fighting amongst one another.
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing to do with politics?
MR NTUNI: No, it had nothing to do with politics.
MR PANDAY: So at the time your brother, although he was member of the ANC, he was very much involved in a gang, is that correct?
MR NTUNI: Yes, he was a member of a gang, although he also belonged to the ANC.
MR PANDAY: And the gang that he belonged to was in conflict with other gangs in the area?
MR NTUNI: No, they were not in conflict.
MR PANDAY: Do you know of any problem that existed between Mondo's gang and his gang?
MR NTUNI: I do not know what was the problem between them.
MR PANDAY: Now is it correct that you are opposing the application being brought by Dannyboy Nyathikazi?
MR NTUNI: Yes, I am opposing the application.
MR PANDAY: Can you state the reason for you opposing the application?
MR NTUNI: Firstly, I would say Mr Nyathikazi has told lies before the Committee.
MR PANDAY: What sort of lies has he told?
MR NTUNI: That my brother had defected, had become an askari. What is an askari?
MR PANDAY: What other lies has he spoken?
MR NTUNI: This re-opens old wounds.
MR PANDAY: We need you to help us, Wiseman. Can you think of any other lies that's he's given in his evidence?
MR NTUNI: The lie that my brother was an askari. Also that he was standing on Road 13. How could he have seen him? It is also a lie that my brother was preventing people from canvassing for the elections.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that that didn't happen?
MR NTUNI: How could he do that? Because he was young, I would have known about it.
MR PANDAY: Now tell me, the area that your brother lived in and the area that the applicant says they were canvassing, what political party dominated the areas?
MR NTUNI: It was the ANC.
MR PANDAY: Now do you believe that the murder of your brother was politically motivated?
MR NTUNI: No.
MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Ntuni, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr
Chairman. Thank you Mr Ntuni. Mr Ntuni it has been your evidence that the applicant was part of a criminal gang. Now it's Mr Nyathikazi's instructions to me that he was never part of any criminal gang, can you comment on that?
MR NTUNI: He is lying.
MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.
MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination Mr ...
MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Ntuni. You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more witnesses Mr ...
MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman, we call Mondo Mkhize.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?
MR PANDAY: That is the first accused in the matter, Mr Chairman. But before we call him, Mr Chairman, could we have a short recess just to confirm with him certain issues?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of calling him?
MR PANDAY: Well Mr Chairman, he was the accused ...
MR LAX: We know who he was. You can rest assured we know who he was. The Chairperson's question stands.
MR PANDAY: He'll merely verify the sequence of events that took place on the day in question.
CHAIRPERSON: Well has the been put in dispute?
MR PANDAY: It might not be so, it serves no purpose to call him as such.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?
MR PANDAY: No Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, have you got any witnesses?
MS THABETHE: None at all, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the end of the evidence? Looks like it. Ms Mohamed, have you got any submissions to make?
MS MOHAMED IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, apart from saying the evidence has been led and the applicant still seeks amnesty, I can't take it any further. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, we don't need to hear you, nor do we need to hear you.
MR PANDAY: No, I will keep quiet Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll reserve Judgment in this matter and we'll hand a decision down in due course.
MS MOHAMED: As the Committee pleases.
