Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Right are we all ready? Well if you would just put yourself on record please.

MR HARKOO: I'm R Harkoo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter, Mr Gwala.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee remains the same. The Leader of Evidence remains the same. Nobody appearing for the victims?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson Mr Panday is appearing for the victims in this matter and he's still not back from the meeting that he was attending.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know when he's likely to be here. He came back from the short adjournment at 20 to 12. Do you think there's any point in waiting now, or shall we start and he can then be told what has happened, if there is anything that he ought to know of?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be given an opportunity to at least phone him and just find out where he is? I'm prepared to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine.

MS MTANGA: ... outside parking.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I think we might as well commence to swear the applicant in and matters of that nature.

MR HARKOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ZOKELE BHEKI GWALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson before he commences with his evidence, can I place on record the matter that we're dealing with?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: It's the application of Zokele Bheki Gwala, reference number AM4267/96. Thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Panday, perhaps you should utilise some of the money you're earning now to buy a new watch.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I must apologise, I was rushing across from ...(indistinct) Street, as I explained, Advocate's Chambers to get across here. I do apologise for the slight delay. MR HARKOO: May I present the witness, Mr Chairman? Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR HARKOO: Mr Gwala, you're an applicant in this matter for amnesty relating to an incident whereby you were convicted on two counts of murder and four counts of attempted murder. The incident in question had taken place some time on the 7th of May 1991. Could you tell the members of the Committee briefly the circumstances that led to this incident?

MR GWALA: I will relate the incident that took place and the reasons that motivated me to commit that offence. The situation at the time was that of conflict between the IFP and the ANC in the eMlanjeni area, which I used to frequent. For the reason that I used to visit that area, I had a friend Tulani Cele and a girlfriend Lea Gasa staying there. Tulani's girlfriend, Tumbisa Mabasa ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, would you ask the applicant to speak a little bit slower so that the interpreter can interpret everything for us?

MR HARKOO: Mr Gwala, will you please go a little slower, or a lot slower so that we can take notes as well.

MR GWALA: Okay.

MR HARKOO: I think whilst you're there, I think that perhaps we should first mention that during this period, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR GWALA: Yes, I was an ANC member then and I remained a member of the ANC.

MR HARKOO: And how long were you an ANC member?

MR GWALA: I'm not absolutely certain of the days, but I joined in 1987 when the political conflict erupted in 1987.

MR HARKOO: Did you occupy any official position within the organisation?

MR GWALA: No, I did not hold a particular position, I was just an ordinary member.

MR HARKOO: Okay you may go ahead now with the incident that took place.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now perhaps you could assist ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: It would assist if you would lead him, then at least we could listen to the question and have time to write down the answer and that kind of thing. If it's difficult, okay let him proceed on his own, but it may assist us if you could ask him pertinent questions and he could answer to that.

MR HARKOO: As the Commission pleases. Mr Gwala, during or about May 1991, were you living in the area at ...

MR GWALA: I resided at ...(indistinct) and I was working in Hammarsdale.

MR HARKOO: Were you involved - you were involved in this incident whereby you were convicted of the murder of the Mabasa family, is that correct?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

MR HARKOO: What part did you play in this incident?

MR GWALA: I am the person who went out and called everyone who was going to take part in the incident and I also took part when this commission was carried out.

MR HARKOO: And what prompted you to go and get everybody to carry out this mission?

MR GWALA: Please repeat the question.

MR HARKOO: What were the reasons as to why you went out to get these people to assist you?

MR GWALA: The reason why I went to collect them was because they were my comrades who would always assist me when we went out to fight the IFP.

MR HARKOO: Could you name these people that you are referring to?

MR GWALA: It was myself, Zokele Gwala, Siabonga Difan Hlope, Zazi Mabasa and Bongani Mabasa, Doda Gwala and Nhlamdela Shozi.

MR HARKOO: So were there six of you in all?

MR GWALA: Yes, there were six of us in total, as well as the driver who provided transport for us.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Are those the six names that have been mentioned in paragraph 9 on page 11?

MR GWALA: Yes, all those names that I've written in the statement, the people were present.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you the Commander of Unit 4?

MR GWALA: No, I was not the Commander at Unit 4 prior to the incident, but I was the person who was in command of the team that went out.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now according to this statement, you convened this meeting. Did you do it on your own initiative, or did somebody order you to convene a meeting? Why did you convene this meeting?

MR GWALA: There was a person with whom I had had a prior discussion who was the Commander at that time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you complain about anything to this Commander, or what was the reason for calling this meeting?

MR GWALA: I had previously laid a complaint to that Commander who was also my uncle, Mr Hlengwa.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What was your complaint?

MR GWALA: There was an allegation that IFP members were out to kill a certain girl by the surname of Mabasa. I had interfered and tried to mediate in that conflict and by doing so, I was labelled a collaborator with the family of that girl and thereafter there was word out that I should also be killed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now this conflict about this girl, what was it about?

MR GWALA: It was for the reason that they could not find her boyfriend, Tulani Cele, who was a Commander in the Number 10 area. I interfered and mediated in that situation, but the following week they managed to abduct that woman and she was killed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you know who abducted her and who killed her?

MR GWALA: I am not certain who abducted and killed her, but on the occasion that I rescued her, she was in the company of people whom I knew by sight and I was also aware that the same persons were supporters of the IFP.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who are they? Tell their names, we don't know them. Tell us so that we can know what happened in this instance. Give us the names of the people who abducted her. You said you rescued her on an occasion, tell us about it.

MR GWALA: On that day, there was Jabo Mabasa, Sibongile Mabasa, I do not know the names of the other people who were present, but I can recognise them.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And what was the name of the girl who was abducted?

MR GWALA: Tumbisa Gasa.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well please continue.

MR HARKOO: Thank you Mr Chairman. And after you had rescued this girl who you mentioned was the girlfriend of you friend, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, I would classify him as a friend.

MR HARKOO: Were they any members of any organisation? MR GWALA: Yes, he was the Commander of the ANC in eMlanjeni area.

MR HARKOO: In your papers you go on to say that the Mabasa clan had conspired to kill you. Can you tell us why did you believe that?

MR GWALA: I believed so for the reason that after the incident, they came to my area in Unit 4, they also went to the eMlanjeni area in the company of the KwaZulu police. In fact they went to my girlfriend's place looking for me.

MR HARKOO: Now in the papers, you mention that your father-in-law was also killed. Would you tell us who did you suspect of having killed him?

MR GWALA: Mphiwa Gasa was attacked and killed. It was later discovered that the persons who were responsible for his death were the KwaZulu police in collusion with the Mabasa clan.

MR HARKOO: So at this stage, you feared that the Mabasa clan would also now come to you, is that correct?

MR GWALA: After learning that they were out looking for me, I decided to be pro-active and take the initiative to attack them instead of them getting me first.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You refer to the Mabasa people as the Mabasa clan and I see they're also referring to your followers as the Gwala clan. Why do you refer to the two parties as clans?

MR GWALA: It indicated that the majority of the people residing in a particular area belonged to one surname, for instance in my area there were many members of the Gwala family.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, Ms Interpreter your voice is coming through very soft, I don't know what's the problem, while the other voices are coming through very clear. You see, I've got this problem, why I'm asking this, you see, you're not referring to members of the ANC and members of the IFP, it seems as though we've got here to do with a fight between two clans, two families and not a political fight.

MR GWALA: These two parties, the Mabasa and Gwala clans, were under different organisations, namely the ANC and the IFP.

MR HARKOO: Now this conflict that you refer to between these two clans, was this just merely a conflict of families or clans as the Chairman puts it, or was it of a political nature?

MR GWALA: It was political conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: But they wanted to kill you and you weren't any office bearer in the ANC. It was you as an individual they wanted to kill, as I understood your evidence.

MR GWALA: It was not that they just wanted to kill me as an individual, but I would say it was political in the sense that the conflict started because of political differences. This girl that they wanted to kill and that they killed, was also a political activist.

MR HARKOO: Okay. So you've now procured these people to help you, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, we had a discussion with my uncle, who suggested that we get a few other people to assist, which we did.

MR HARKOO: And these people were they supporters of your organisation?

MR GWALA: That's correct, they were members of the ANC.

MR HARKOO: Where did you get your weapons from?

MR GWALA: My uncle Siyazi brought them to our area for the reason that he was aware of our problem. He promised to contact Harry Gwala, after which he reported to us that he had been successful in the sense that he had been given weapons, which he handed over to us.

CHAIRPERSON: So did these weapons come from Harry Gwala?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

MR HARKOO: Okay and then what did you do together with these people?

MR GWALA: After we had all assembled, we proceeded. Because of the distance involved, we approached someone to assist us with transport, which he then provided. He then dropped us at Unit 6, at which time we proceeded with the offence.

MR HARKOO: Now when you proceeded through to Unit 6, I presume that is where the Mabasa family lived, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, that is where they had fled to in the eKwendweni area. That is where we went and attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say the Mabasas had fled?

MR GWALA: They had fled from the Nalangeni area to Nondweni, that is in Unit 6.

CHAIRPERSON: So you followed them there.

MR GWALA: Yes, we did.

MR HARKOO: And when you went out to the Mabasa family, did you look for anybody in particular?

MR GWALA: We were looking for the entire family, except for young children, but when we got there, we asked for the father of the household and we were informed that he was not at home. That is when we started firing.

CHAIRPERSON: You looked for the father, you found he was not at home, so you then started firing. Is that what you mean?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who did you kill?

MR GWALA: The children were injured by accident, but I did not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR GWALA: Yes, it was per accident because we were not after the children, we were after the adults in the home. We also had information to the effect that the KwaZulu police also stayed there.

CHAIRPERSON: And the only people you killed were two five year old children, is that correct?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that was correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, we learned later that the people who died at the incident were small children.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When you went there, what was your purpose, who did you want to kill? Who were the targets?

MR GWALA: The intention was to kill the father and the son as well as the daughters who were seen to be in close cahoots with the KwaZulu police.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now could you name those people, those targets you intended to kill?

MR GWALA: Yes. It was Mr Mabasa, Fanyana, his son, his name was Maningi, as well as the girls in the family whose boyfriends were KZP members.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who were the girls?

MR GWALA: Jabo Mabasa, I forget the other names, although I can identify them.

CHAIRPERSON: Not Longili Mabasa, a girl aged 11?

MR GWALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Or Fakazili Mabasa?

MR GWALA: I do not know which one is Fakazili.

CHAIRPERSON: A woman aged 57.

MR GWALA: No. ...(indistinct) the girls who posed problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how is it that all these other people got shot? Didn't you care who you were shooting, did you just open fire on everybody who was in that house?

MR GWALA: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: How is it that the other people got shot, this girl Longili, this woman Fakazili Mabasa?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: This girl Longili, this woman Fakazili Mabasa, how did they get shot when they were not targets, you've told us. Did you just open fire on everybody in that hut?

MR GWALA: After learning that Mr Mabasa was not home, but the others were present, we started firing and that is how the others also got shot.

CHAIRPERSON: What motive did you have to open fire? You'd learnt that the man you were looking for was not present, why did you then open fire?

MR GWALA: There was a male person inside the hut. There was also a second person, a second male person in another hut, but that we could not attack because he turned out the light.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. I may have been wrong about the age of the woman I said was 57, that is on page 80 of the papers, it is hand-written by the doctor. I may have misread, apparent age 57, but on reconsideration it seems odd that you would estimate an age as being 57, it would be 50 or 60.

MR HARKOO: Now you mentioned that in this house there were other males, is that correct? Were you able to identify these other males?

MR GWALA: There was one male person inside the house in which the child was injured. The elder one was with Mabasa's daughter, but that one survived.

MR HARKOO: Now there was evidence that these person were shot and some of them were stabbed. Can you explain that?

MR GWALA: Yes, I can explain, for the reason that there were a number of us involved. Some people were armed with firearms as well as knives and of those who went inside the huts, perhaps there the people were stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: So they stabbed these women time and again?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just tell me, who was in command of this operation?

MR GWALA: I was in command.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you - what orders did you give? Who should they shoot?

MR GWALA: From our discussion, we decided that we would attack the males in the home, as well as the women who were responsible for causing the conflict.

ADV SIGODI: So tell me, one of your co-accused was Barney Mabasa, in the trial, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, he was one of the co-accused.

ADV SIGODI: Was he a relative of the Mabasas that you were attacking?

MR GWALA: I will say it was his family.

MR HARKOO: You mentioned in your papers that the operation was carried out under the command of your uncle Siyazi, was that correct and can you explain that?

MR GWALA: Yes, I can explain. After I had explained the problem to him, my uncle and I held a discussion on how to approach the problem. There was a suggestion made to meet with the Mabasa family, to try to resolve the issue. however, my uncle was of the opinion that those people may kill me first before we even have that discussion, therefore it will be better if I take the initiative to attack first and that is what happened.

MR HARKOO: What was - could you explain to the Committee, what was the political objective that you sought to achieve?

MR GWALA: The political objective to be achieved was that the eMlanjeni area would become an ANC stronghold and that is what happened because all those other people who were not ANC affiliated, left the area.

MR HARKOO: And did you achieve this objective?

MR GWALA: Yes, eventually it happened, because they left the Hammarsdale area.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did they go to?

MR GWALA: I am not certain but I heard that they moved to Nchanga.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was it that they had fled to where you killed them? You told us, didn't you, that they had fled from the area and that you followed them?

MR GWALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where had they fled to?

MR GWALA: They were in hiding at eKwendeni.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was out of the eMlanjeni district?

MR GWALA: Yes, it was outside the eMlanjeni district.

MR HARKOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Gwala, did you know the Mabasa family well?

MR GWALA: Yes, I knew them.

MR PANDAY: So how did you know them?

MR GWALA: We used to meet in the Hammarsdale area because they worked there. I also knew them from the eMlanjeni area.

MR PANDAY: Now, did you know how many adults were in that house, or in the Mabasa family, how many adults?

MR GWALA: Are you referring to the day of the incident?

MR PANDAY: No in general, the Mabasa family, do you know how many adults made up the Mabasa family?

MR GWALA: I am not certain of the number, but there were many.

MR PANDAY: Right. How many sons were in the Mabasa family?

MR GWALA: I think about two.

CHAIRPERSON: How many what?

MR PANDAY: Sons.

CHAIRPERSON: Two?

MR PANDAY: Two sons, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Two sons in the family.

MR GWALA: I think there were two.

MR PANDAY: Did you know how old they were?

MR GWALA: No I did not have any knowledge thereof?

MR PANDAY: Do you think they were more than 20 years old?

MR GWALA: One of them was older than 20.

MR PANDAY: And how many daughters were in the Mabasa family?

MR GWALA: I think there were about four that I knew.

MR PANDAY: How many daughters were going out with the ZP police, as you said?

MR GWALA: From what I learned, it was one daughter.

MR PANDAY: Now do you know the daughter's name?

MR GWALA: I do not know her name, but I know the face.

MR PANDAY: Can you identify them?

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now on the left-hand side of you is the Mabasa family, is the daughter present?

MR GWALA: Yes, she is. The one in the white hat.

MR PANDAY: The white hat, are you talking about Sibongile?

MR GWALA: I do not know whether she is Sibongile.

MR PANDAY: The one in the white had, her names is Sibongile Mabasa. Yes, are you talking about her? Right, we'll go on. Right now Mr Gwala, you say that you heard rumours that people were trying to kill you. Who did you hear these rumours from?

MR GWALA: I heard that when I went to the eMlanjeni district. I was informed by Tulani Cele that there were people who were out to kill me. ...(indistinct) also told me the same thing. When I was imprisoned Sipo ...(indistinct) who was a KwaZulu Police in the area also gave me the full details.

MR PANDAY: When he gave you the full details, did he tell you the names of the people that wanted to kill you?

MR GWALA: Yes, he did.

MR PANDAY: Who were the people that were trying to kill you?

MR GWALA: He mentioned Bongani Sithole, Mr Mnkone and Mr Hlengwa. I'm not sure of their first names.

MR PANDAY: Now all these people you talk about, they do not have the Mabasa surname.

MR GWALA: No, but they worked closely with the Mabasa family because they were in the KwaZulu police.

MR PANDAY: Now would it surprise you to note that the Mabasa family are actually ANC members?

CHAIRPERSON: What number did you say? Sorry, I thought you said a number.

MR PANDAY: Would it surprise you to note that the Mabasa family are ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh ANC, sorry.

MR GWALA: Please repeat that.

MR PANDAY: Would it surprise you if I told you that the Mabasa family are ANC members?

MR GWALA: It would surprise me, because from what I know, they left the eMlanjeni area because of their IFP membership.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Gwala, you did not live in the area where the Mabasa family first lived, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, I used to go there just to visit.

MR PANDAY: So how far was the place you lived from there?

MR GWALA: It was not that far, because it was a walkable distance.

MR PANDAY: Is that the Njokobokazi area?

MR GWALA: It was the Njokobokazi area.

MR PANDAY: And the area they lived in, did that have its own ANC following?

MR GWALA: Yes, there were members of the ANC residing there.

MR PANDAY: Now if the Mabasa family were, as you put it, IFP supporters, wouldn't they have been killing the ANC members in their area?

MR GWALA: Please repeat the question.

MR PANDAY: The Mabasa family lived in which area?

MR GWALA: At Kwandengeni where we lost the attack.

MR PANDAY: Now in Kwandengeni, were there ANC members in Kwandengeni?

MR GWALA: At the time of the incident, those people who were ANC members were not public about that.

MR PANDAY: You see the Mabasa family will say that you're lying, they were all ANC members in that area because they are from the area. Now when you went to attack them, in which area were they living in?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could we perhaps hear his response on the statement you've made?

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What do you say, the counsel put it to you that the Mabasa family would tell us that you are lying, they were all ANC members, or the majority are ANC members in that area, the Kwandengeni area, what do you say about that?

MR GWALA: I dispute that for the - I dispute that the Kwandengeni area was an ANC stronghold.

MR PANDAY: Now what region did that area fall under.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR PANDAY: The Kwandengeni area, what region did it fall under?

MR GWALA: Its under the ...(indistinct)

MR PANDAY: Is it also under Hammarsdale?

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: I'm going to turn you to page 43, if you ask your attorney to show you page 43. Right on the top of page 43, do you see the name Fakazili Mabasa?

MR GWALA: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Do you see the region, ANC?

MR GWALA: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Now you see it says Membership Fee?

MR GWALA: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Now you said you were a member in the area of the ANC. Did you have one of these cards?

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Where is that card?

MR GWALA: It's at home. I do not have it on my person, but I do have a card.

CHAIRPERSON: This card indicates the age was correct.

MR PANDAY: 1934. Now, you see the second card over there, Tumzile? That also shows she was also an ANC member and she is from the Mabasa family. What I'm trying to show you, over here we have some proof to indicate and to back up the story of the Mabasa family that they are ANC members. Would you like to comment on that?

MR GWALA: Yes, I can comment. As I mentioned earlier, the Mabasa family used to reside at eMlanjeni, which was an ANC stronghold. It is possible that they may have taken up ANC membership for that reason, because at a later stage, they were responsible for killing Tumbisa who was Tulani Cele's girlfriend and she was killed for the reason that they could not get hold of Tulani who was a Commander of the ANC, that was why I say it is possible that they took out the membership for the reason that they resided in an ANC stronghold.

MR PANDAY: Now let's talk about Tumbisa. Did Tumbisa live in the same area the Mabasa family lived?

MR GWALA: Yes, they resided in the same area.

MR PANDAY: Did Tulani live in the same area that the Mabasa family lived?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Wasn't Tulani the leader in that area of the ANC, as you say?

MR GWALA: Tulani Cele was the ANC Youth League Chairperson in the area. After the political conflict erupted, the Mabasa family then killed his girlfriend.

MR PANDAY: Why did they kill his girlfriend?

MR GWALA: I can state briefly on the occasion when I came across them when they had captured the girl, on inquiring they informed me that they had captured her because she was a comrade's girlfriend. I mediated in that and I rescued that girl and took her home.

ADV SIGODI: You say it's the Mabasa family that killed Tulani's girlfriend?

MR GWALA: I will say it was the Mabasa family, because on the day that I rescued that girl, the people who were present were the Mabasa girls in the company of some IFP boys, whose names I cannot recall.

ADV SIGODI: So you are not in a position to give us the names of the Mabasa girls who were there?

MR GWALA: I do not know their names, but I can identify them because I spoke to them directly.

ADV SIGODI: That is on the day when you rescued her?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I want to find out, coming back to the day of rescue, on the day that she was killed, who killed her, Tulani's girlfriend?

MR GWALA: I was not present on the day because she was killed a week after I had rescued her, I just learned about it the following morning. What I heard was that she had been abducted by the Mabasa people from town and later on she was killed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Gwala, at the time you rescued Tumbisa, tell me, were people trying to kill you at that time as well?

MR GWALA: At that time there wasn't any plan to kill me because the conflict was still just general conflict in the area. I became a target after I had rescued her.

MR PANDAY: After you rescued her you became a target? Now wouldn't they have had the chance to kill you same time when you went to rescue her? The IFP boys were there and the Mabasa family.

MR GWALA: When I approached them, some of them fled, I only spoke to one boy and two or three other girls that remained who explained the reason why they wanted to kill her, which was that she was involved with a comrade. I asked them why they did not look for that comrade. I then took the girl, took her to the taxi rank.

MR PANDAY: So if Tumbisa was not involved with a comrade, they wouldn't have killed her?

MR GWALA: I cannot say it with certainty. Nevertheless she resided in the eMlanjeni area and was also a comrade in her own right.

MR PANDAY: Now if I recall your evidence earlier on, you said that the reason they killed Tumbisa was because they were looking for Tulani and they could not find you.

MR GWALA: Tulani Cele?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Tulani Cele.

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: But now you say they killed her because she was a comrade, now which is the reason they killed her?

MR GWALA: I was responding to your question whether they would not have killed her, were it not for the reason that she was Tulani's girlfriend. However on the occasion that I spoke to them, they explained that they wanted to kill her for the reason that she was a comrade's girlfriend.

MR PANDAY: Now on the day you went to attack the Mabasa family, is it correct that you knew who you had to attack?

MR GWALA: Please repeat the question.

MR PANDAY: On the night that you went to attack the Mabasa clan, is it correct that you knew who you were going to attack? Which people you needed to attack?

MR GWALA: Yes, we did have such information.

MR PANDAY: Were you going to make sure that whoever you attacked was going to die on that night?

MR GWALA: As we were looking for Mr Mabasa and the other people who were responsible for perpetrating the violence, yes we were out to attack them.

MR PANDAY: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you had definite targets. You were looking for Mr Mabasa and the other people who were causing the trouble, is that right?

MR GWALA: That's correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now who were they? Could you point them out? Who did you want to kill that night? Are they present here so that we won't have any mistake in who you considered to be targets?

MR GWALA: Attackers besides Mr Mabasa were the people who were responsible for perpetrating the violence in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were they? You've been asked to name them, or whether you can point them out.

MR GWALA: It was Mr Mabasa, his sons and his daughters. I can point them out, because I do not know their names.

MR PANDAY: Okay Mr Gwala, once again on the left-hand side is all the Mabasa family that were there, now which ones of them you wanted to attack and kill? Let's start with the four people sitting in the front.

CHAIRPERSON: The three women and the child, there are seven people sitting in the front.

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Chairman, I assumed that he'll exclude the other three. Right do you want to point them out? Which one are you talking about?

MR GWALA: The lady in a white hat, as well as the lady behind in a green dress.

MR PANDAY: Mr Gwala, just one second. The lady in the white hat is Sibongile Mabasa, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Who is the second person you point out?

MR GWALA: The one with the bandage on her arm.

MR PANDAY: With the bandage on her arm, just let me see who you are pointing out.

MR GWALA: And the person next to her.

MR PANDAY: If she could stand, the one with the bandage on her arm, is that the one? Right. I think that is, is that Tumzile? Thabazile Mabasa. Right, that's Thabazile. Who's the third one, the next person?

MR GWALA: The one sitting next to her.

MR PANDAY: Right is that - your name is not Pumzile, no? Pumzile. Right Pumzile Mabasa. Right, the next person?

MR GWALA: The one in the black hat at the back.

MR PANDAY: In the black hat. Your name Ma'am. That's not Jabo? Yes, that's Jabo Nkomo, at that time she was not married. Right that's Jabo Mabasa.

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Right. Next?

MR GWALA: It was also the father and the son.

MR PANDAY: Right, which is the father? Point the father out. Is that the man?

MR GWALA: I am not certain, he is now grey, I'm not sure whether it's him.

MR PANDAY: That man's name is Fanyana Mabasa, Fanyana Paulus Mabasa.

MR MABASA: Fanyana Mabasa.

MR PANDAY: Now this incident took place, what, nine years back. Right, which are the sons?

MR GWALA: It was his sons, Maningi.

MR PANDAY: Which one is Maningi? You point him out.

MR GWALA: I am not able to point him out now.

MR PANDAY: Right you can't point Mangini - can you point him out? Can you point to the son you're talking about? Can you point the son, Mr Mabasa's son who you're talking about?

MR GWALA: I know the son who is present here, but I am not sure of his name.

MR PANDAY: You're not sure of his name. Was that the person you were going to kill?

MR GWALA: Yes, he was one of our targets.

MR PANDAY: And who was the other person?

JUDGE DE JAGER: You said he is present. Could he stand up, could you point him out so that he can stand up and we can get his name.

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, is that the son you were going to kill?

MR GWALA: I'm not sure, but I know this other one.

MR PANDAY: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is it? Tell us where he's sitting. You say you know he's here, you're not sure of his name. Which one? Where is he sitting?

MR GWALA: The one with the collar.

MR PANDAY: Okay, just have him stand up. What is your name?

MR PANDAY: Ntutula Mabasa. And how old were you then? Is that all the people you had to kill Mr Gwala?

MR GWALA: Yes, those were the people we targeted to kill at the Mabasa household.

MR PANDAY: And they were a threat to your life, is that correct? Were these people a threat to your life?

MR GWALA: Yes, they were a threat.

MR PANDAY: You see, in consultation with Sibongile Mabasa, she says and it's also in her affidavit on page 37, when you attacked the house, and when you saw her father coming, you all disappeared. Now, that's ...(indistinct - mike not on) Now you had a chance to attack and kill Mr Mabasa, but you ran away, now that doesn't make sense. Why did you run away?

MR GWALA: I would dispute that because I do not believe a person would approach a place where there are gun shots going off, besides it was dark, it would not have been easy for him to approach the scene, he would have waited for the gun fire to subside.

MR PANDAY: But wouldn't it have been easier for you to kill him if it was dark? You went there to kill him, but you all ran away when you saw him coming, that doesn't make sense.

MR GWALA: We did not see him on that day, it was dark and it was also misty because there was rainfall.

MR PANDAY: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If one reads the previous paragraph of Sibongile's affidavit, she said

"Several shots were fired at us and this took a long time. After the shooting one of the attackers stabbed me on my back, shoulder and right hand and my mother all over her body. That's when I had a chance to see and identify and it was someone I knew, it was Barney Mabasa. The other attackers fled. They were disturbed by the arrival of my father."

Now it seems from what she says there, that this was some time after the shooting had stopped.

MR GWALA: Mr Chairman are your requiring - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any comment to make? Did you leave some time after the shooting stopped?

MR GWALA: Firstly, we left immediately after shooting. Secondly, with regards to Sibongile identifying Barney Mabasa, I would dispute that because he was not present.

MR PANDAY: Now do you know that Barney Mabasa and the Mabasa family are related?

MR GWALA: Yes, I'm aware of that.

MR PANDAY: Do you think that they would make a mistake with their relative?

MR GWALA: They made a serious mistake.

MR PANDAY: Why do you say they make a serious mistake? Were you there when they identified Barney Mabasa, were you present, or you had fled?

MR GWALA: I stated as a mistake because I know everyone who was with me on that occasion. I know Barney Mabasa since my childhood days. I would not make a mistake about him, he was not even anywhere near that scene.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ; This Barney Mabasa, was he a member of the IFP, or was he a member of the ANC?

MR GWALA: At that time when the offence was committed, Barney was a member of the ANC. Later on there was a division within the ANC and they left for Woodyglen area.

MR PANDAY: Wasn't Barney an IFP supporter?

MR GWALA: At that time he was not an IFP member, he was still an ANC supporter. He became an IFP supporter after the incident.

ADV SIGODI: Why did he change?

MR GWALA: There was conflict between the ANC and IFP in the ...(indistinct) are, after which some people fled for the Woodyglen area. However, there developed conflict within the ANC and those members fled to that Woodyglen area. When I was arrested, Mr Mabasa had become a political opponent. We were by that time afraid of each other because of the conflict that had developed because of the two factions and the ANC.

ADV SIGODI: So you knew him before this incident, this Barney Mabasa?

MR GWALA: I knew him since my childhood days. We grew up together in the same district.

ADV SIGODI: What I find puzzling is the fact that he denies that he was present at the killing. Barney Mabasa denies any knowledge and any involvement in the killing. Now why would the killing have any reason for him to change from being ANC to being IFP? How would it affect him?

MR GWALA: It was not that incident that changed his political affiliation. He changed because of what happened within his district, people were divided into two. This took place after the crime had been committed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Gwala, you say that Barney because IFP after the Mabasa family was attacked?

MR GWALA: Yes, if I'm not mistaken, he became an IFP member after that incident.

MR PANDAY: Now on page 27, paragraph 3, this is the typed version of Barney's affidavit, he says the following

"The victims are my blood relatives. They were staying at eMlanjeni area, but I did not know their political affiliation. I was an IFP member..."

So his membership with the IFP was before you attacked the victims, so you in fact are lying to us here today, or would you say Barney is lying in his affidavit?

MR GWALA: He may be making a mistake because I can dispute it. After my arrest, or after the commission of the offence, they were still residing in our area. After my arrest and after I had obtained bail, they left the area for Woodyglen, that was after they had become IFP members.

MR PANDAY: Who had become IFP members?

MR GWALA: I'm referring to the people who lived in Barney Mabasa's district, the ...(indistinct) districts were now divided.

MR PANDAY: Now your father-in-law, that is Mr Gasa, is that the same uncle of Barney's?

MR GWALA: He is his father's younger brother.

MR PANDAY: Now he was also killed, your father-in-law, your girlfriend's father. Was he also killed?

MR GWALA: Yes, he was killed.

MR PANDAY: And who did you suspect of killing him?

MR GWALA: After his death, the police went to his home and they inquired after me. However, I was at work and they then asked for ...(indistinct) who was at home. They demanded firearms which they did not get and then they started assaulting him. After a day or two, people went to his home and shot him dead. It was suspected that it was the Mabasa people who had shot him.

MR PANDAY: How did that suspicion come about?

MR GWALA: It was for the reason that when the police went looking for firearms, they were in the company of the Mabasa boys, who were also in police uniform.

MR PANDAY: Which Mabasa boy was in police uniform? Are you talking about the one you pointed out, are you talking about that Mabasa boy?

MR GWALA: From the information we received, it was mentioned that it was Maningi Mabasa who was in the company of the KwaZulu police.

MR PANDAY: Maningi, right, now on the day you went to kill the Mabasa family, you were looking for the one in the corner there, that's ..., I can't pronounce his name, but that's the one who stood up, so you won't even know who you were looking to kill on the day.

MR GWALA: Please repeat that.

MR PANDAY: On the day you went to kill the Mabasa family, you knew who you were looking for to kill.

MR GWALA: Yes, I can say we knew who were our targets at the Mabasa household.

MR PANDAY: So did you know the face of Maningi Mabasa?

MR GWALA: He was pointed out to me at some occasion. I had only spoken to the father of the household.

MR PANDAY: No, but my question is that when you went to kill him, you knew his face, because you had made up your mind to go and kill the people that were a threat.

MR GWALA: Yes, at the time I knew his face.

MR PANDAY: But you can't identify his face today?

MR GWALA: It's because of the length of time that has lapsed.

MR PANDAY: Now what I'm confused about is that you mention that you took the decision to kill the Mabasa family, but yet in your papers you say your uncle gave the orders.

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now that would mean that you were following orders and not making decisions to kill. That won't fall in line with your reasoning for killing the Mabasa family. Now which was it, were you following orders or were you making the orders?

MR GWALA: I presented my case to my uncle and he is the one who suggested that we should not wait until they attack me, instead we should be pro-active and attack first. when we carried out the mission, my uncle was however not present.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry. Tell me, who was your girlfriend at that time?

MR GWALA: It was Lea Gasa or Mabasa.

ADV SIGODI: So she was related to the Mabasa family, wasn't she?

MR GWALA: I would say they were related for the reason that they had the same surname.

ADV SIGODI: And her father was also related to the Mabasa family as well, that is your father-in-law.

MR GWALA: Yes, I think they were.

ADV SIGODI: Now you say in your affidavit

"Before this particular attack, the Mabasa clan had killed a girlfriend of my friend Tumbisa and my girlfriend's father, ...(indistinct) Gasa, from the eMlanjeni area."

Now was the death of your father-in-law a motivating factor when you went to attack the Mabasa family?

MR GWALA: I would say it was not for the reason that they had killed my girlfriend's father.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly go slow. She's trying to tell us what you're saying and now both of you are speaking at the same time, so we can't hear what you're saying and it's important for us to hear what you're saying and she's the one who should tell us. Yes, Ms Interpreter, could you interpret what he said?

INTERPRETER: ; He was still explaining that it was not for the reason that his girlfriend's father, or his friend's girlfriend were killed, that he attacked the Mabasa household.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, could you continue?

MR GWALA: Okay. I was explaining that I did not attack the Mabasa household for the reason that they had been responsible for the death of my girlfriend's father. I was not paying revenge.

MR PANDAY: Now you heard rumours of them wanting to kill you. Were there any previous attacks on your life?

MR GWALA: It once happened in the Jovokazi area and even then it was at night.

MR PANDAY: And did you see anyone in particular who attacked you?

MR GWALA: I could not identify the person because it was at night.

MR PANDAY: Now besides that one attack, were there any other attacks?

MR GWALA: There were people who came to my place of residence looking for me, however I was not at home.

MR PANDAY: Now when you were applying for amnesty, why did you not include these incidents that you talk about, they wanted to attack you? You give the impression in your affidavit that the killing of Tumbisa and your father-in-law was the motivation for the attack, you don't talk about the attacks on you.

MR GWALA: I was of the opinion that I was supposed to explain about what I did, not those instances where I was a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: He does talk of conspiracy to kill him.

MR PANDAY: Very very briefly Mr Chairman, but hinges more on the attacks and murders of the two persons. Now, Mr Gwala, the Mabasa family is convinced that the attack on them, was in no way politically motivated and the only reason they can think of is that there was more revenge for this attack and also that you merely had a criminal element in your mind, or you were a person that was merely a criminal.

MR GWALA: I dispute those claims. I dispute that I was not politically motivated or that I was a criminal, for the reason that I became a target for the assistance I had given to Tulani Cele's girlfriend. Moreover they were aware of my political affiliation because I used to visit Tulani Cele who resided at the same place as they did. It was politically motivated, therefore I dispute that I was paying any revenge, because the people who had been killed at that point, were not even related to me. I was forced into a situation where I had to fight, that is after consulting my uncle.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you fight? Did you fight because you were forced in a situation to protect your own life? Was that the reason why you fought?

MR GWALA: I took the decision to fight for the reason that I was a target and also for the reason that they belonged to a certain organisation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And that organisation was what you called the Mabasa clan?

MR GWALA: It was a political organisation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But when you went to your uncle you told him: "Listen, there are rumours going around that these people want to kill me" and you suggested that you should go and talk to them, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, when I approached my uncle, I explained the problem to him and after hearing me out, he was of the opinion that since they had killed these other people, it was obvious that I was next in line, that is why he made the suggestion that I attack them. Moreover on a previous occasion, I had approached Mr Mabasa in town, trying to discuss this matter. However, I was insulted by one of his daughters who was with him on that occasion.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And what did she say to you? How did she insult you? What did she say?

MR GWALA: I am not sure whether I should just state verbatim what she said. She just said that: "This son of a bitch is crazy, let's leave him".

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you had a personal vendetta with this woman who insulted you, you were very cross with her because she insulted you?

MR GWALA: No, I did not hold a grudge against here. After that incident I made another attempt to talk to her when we met in an area called 1 South. At that time, it appeared as if we were resolving the issue.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What issue did you want to resolve? What was the trouble between you and this woman?

MR GWALA: I was talking to them about allegations that they were responsible for assaulting people in ...(indistinct) area. After a couple of days, Tumzile was then abducted. That was on the occasion when I managed to rescue her.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you didn't resolve this dispute. It went on and then they kidnapped Tumzile, is that correct?

MR GWALA: Yes, it continued until Tumbisa was kidnapped.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And afterwards she was killed in fact?

MR GWALA: Indeed, after about a week, she was killed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And then you decided that you should do something against these people whom you suspected of killing her.

MR GWALA: Please repeat that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you suspect that she'd been killed by the Mabasa family, or Mabasa clan?

MR GWALA: Her boyfriend learned that she had been killed by the Mabasa family. He even went to the police to inquire from him, but no steps were taken.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And was that a motivating factor for you to attack the Mabasa family, or was the only motivating factor that you heard the rumour that they now want to kill you, or was there any other factor?

MR GWALA: I took the reason to attack the Mabasa household, was the fact that these were IFP people who were out to kill me. After discussing the matter with my seniors, I came to the decision that they should be attacked.

ADV SIGODI: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not on.

ADV SIGODI: ; Who was the leader of the IFP in the area where the Mabasas lived?

MR GWALA: I am not in a position to say who was the IFP leader at eMlanjeni where they resided.

ADV SIGODI: But what position did Mr Mabasa himself have in the IFP?

MR GWALA: I do not know which position he held. I knew him to be a member of the IFP.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How did you come to think that he was a member of the IFP, because they're denying, they say they were members of the ANC. What created the impression that they were members of the IFP?

MR GWALA: What I can state is I dispute that they were ANC members. If they were indeed ANC members, what prompted them to leave eMlanjeni which was an ANC stronghold? Moreover, if they were ANC members, why were they out to kill Tulani Cele who was a Youth Leader in that area of Ekwendeni?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't they flee the area because two children were killed and they themselves were wounded?

MR GWALA: No. I attacked them when they resided at Ekwendeni. Previously they had resided at eMalangeni, which they left.

CHAIRPERSON: You'll be some time with this applicant, won't you?

MR PANDAY: Not too long Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it's four o'clock now.

MR PANDAY: I can't see myself going on. Just one question to clarify, to finish off with him.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR PANDAY: Mr Gwala, besides Tumbisa and Tulani Cele, there were other ANC members in the area, isn't that correct?

MR GWALA: Are you referring to the eMlanjeni area?

MR PANDAY: You said the Mabasa family was attacking ANC members. there were other ANC members in the area?

MR GWALA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now isn't it odd that the only people you say they attacked was your friend's girlfriend and your father-in-law?

MR GWALA: Please repeat that question.

MR PANDAY: This one family seems to have been a threat to the entire ANC in the area but yet they only attack your father-in-law and your best friend's girlfriend, isn't that strange?

MR GWALA: I was only relating those events that I am aware of, but there are other instances or incidents that took place, for instance Tulani Cele's brother was killed.

MR PANDAY: No but you just said there were incidents that you were aware of, now you're talking about incidents that you were not aware of. You said you related the incident that you were aware of. Now how can you talk about something you're not aware of?

MR GWALA: I do not know about it personally, I heard about it. The incident relating to Tumbisa and Mr Gasa, are those that I was aware of.

MR PANDAY: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not sure how long I'm going to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the adjournment now. What time do you want us to commence tomorrow, 9.30?

MS MTANGA: Half past nine, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Half past nine. Very well, we'll adjourn till half past nine tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS