Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Yesterday we concluded the proceedings with Mr Khumalo putting questions to the witness and there was an indication earlier that a member from the Mabika family would be wanting to put questions. Is there somebody to present to that?

MR NGUBANE: That's Mr Mabika.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Mabika could you please give your full names?

MR MABIKA: Linda Mabika (sworn states)

MR MKHIZE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabika what is your relationship to the deceased Mr Mabika?

MR MABIKA: He was my older brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may put questions to the witness.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if I may come in here, I had a short consultation with the current witness and we have agreed that I will lead him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe, I appreciate that.

MR MPSHE: And further on Mr Chairman, what I want to put to request from this Committee is that he is a bit on the emotional side, there may be a stage where he breaks, I'll ask the Committee and the other parties to be sensitive to his position. Thank you sir.

MR MPSHE: Mr Mabika on the day of the incident in November 1993, were you present? Were you in the company of the deceased you brother?

MR MABIKA: Yes that is so.

MR MPSHE: ...[inaudible] the deceased and yourself was present?

MR MABIKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just repeat the question Mr Mpshe.

MR MPSHE: Now my last question to you was besides yourself, the deceased - your brother, Mr Mabika and the deceased Sergeant Khumalo, who else was present on the scene?

MR MABIKA: It was myself, my brother and my child.

MR MPSHE: Now in what position in relation to the motor vehicle driven by Sergeant Dlamini were you standing?

MR MABIKA: We were standing at the gate next to the car, because we were waiting for the gate to be opened.

MR MPSHE: Were you both at the gate?

MR MABIKA: Yes I had just parked a government car nearby.

MR MPSHE: And what did you see there?

MR MABIKA: When I parked the car, there approached one car and it stopped and one person got off and went into Msemela's house but I didn't take much notice of this person and we parked the car and then we went to the gate and spoke to my brother who was at that time parked in front of the gate.

MR MPSHE: Were you both - were both and I'm referring to yourself and your brother the deceased, were you both standing on the same side talking to Sergeant Dlamini.

MR MABIKA: Yes we were standing on the same side and I was holding onto a mirror.

MR MPSHE: And whilst they're talking what happened?

MR MABIKA: I heard a shot and we fell on the ground I think the shots rang out for about five times. After that I got up - when I tried to wake my brother up then I discovered there was blood on him and I also when approaching Sergeant Khumalo and tried to wake him and I also discovered that he was also dead. After that I tried to wake up my, eventually she did wake up. I rushed into the house and told my wife and my brother's wife and then I went to the Khumalos and woke them up and told them about the incident.

MR MPSHE: Did your child get injured in the process?

MR MABIKA: No the child was not injured.

MR MPSHE: And yourself?

MR MABIKA: No I wasn't injured myself.

MR MPSHE: Will it be correct to say then the police were called and they were on the scene?

MR MABIKA: Yes the police were called and after a while they arrived.

MR MPSHE: And did what they normally do on such occasions?

MR MABIKA: Yes, what I asked from them is how come they knew about this because Khumalo usually arrived early and on this particular day when he had arrived late, something like this happened. Then they did not respond when I alleged that they knew about this incident.

MR MPSHE: Was your brother, the deceased, involved in political activities?

MR MABIKA: No, he was from Gezini and he had just come by my house, passing to see me.

MR MPSHE: Was a member of any particular party there?

MR MABIKA: No, he was a member at Gezini but not in this particular area. He was on his way to Kosasabanta.

MR MPSHE: Are you a member of any political party yourself?

MR MABIKA: No I am not.

MR MPSHE: Was your brother active in politics?

MR MABIKA: No he was not.

MR MPSHE: Now I want you to tell this Honourable Committee as to how you feel about the incident particularly wherein your brother was killed.

MR MABIKA: I am very worried and concerned about my brother's death. This has disintegrated the family - nobody trusts me within the family because my brother, on that day, had come to see me so I am not trustworthy, even my wife has left me. What I would like to know from the perpetrators is why they committed this act because we are at this very moment confused, we don't know what happened about my brother.

MR MPSHE: Is there any other thing you want this Committee to take note of?

MR MABIKA: What I would like to ask is if the Truth Commission can help me in the perpetrators and the families making contact so that there can be peace within the family.

MR MPSHE: Is there any way or do you have information as to how perhaps your brother's wife and the child may be traced?

MR MABIKA: It is difficult to trace my brother's wife but the child is at school at Richards Bay but there isn't much as I can say about her because at the time she was just six.

MR MPSHE: And who is taking care of the child?

MR MABIKA: I think the mother takes care of my brother's child.

MR MPSHE: You have indicated that you have questions that you want to put to the applicant. I going to request the Committee to give you that chance and you put the questions directly to the applicant. Do you still want to put the questions to him?

MR MABIKA: Yes that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes proceed and put any questions to the witness.

MR MABIKA: What I would like to know from Mr Mkhize is why did they shoot because they had also seen that we were also in the vicinity?

MR MKHIZE: Firstly I would like to express my pain and the hurt that I feel what I did to your family.

I will answer your question by - I don't know whether you were present here yesterday when I explained about how your brother was murdered. I explained that when we left Umhlane Pumatenja with the gun, the AK47 which he carried, we left the scene. At that time Sergeant Khumalo had not really approached his gate, we had overtaken him on the way and dropped Umhlane Pumatenja ahead. I am trying to show that when Khumalo actually arrived at his gate, myself and Romeo were not at that scene, we had already left the scene. We then hurried to a dusty road to park our car near the dressmaking school that I mentioned yesterday. Therefore, when Khumalo arrived at the gate, we were not physically there where he was going to be shot but there was only Umhlane Pumatenja whom we had left at the scene.

Therefore, Umhlane was that had shot him - when I as a commander did not really have control over him, I could not tell him anything at the time because I was not at the particular spot that he was in, I was in the opposite direction. I mentioned yesterday that we later realised that we were also in Umhlane's line of fire because we were opposite him and therefore the decision to shoot Sergeant Khumalo regardless of the fact that he was speaking to other people who were no longer our targets was made by Umhlane. By this I'm not trying to shrug off my responsibility, I'm not saying that I was not involved in the death of your brother, I in fact killed him. His death is amongst the many I am responsible for but what I'm trying to say is that I could not have given any instruction to Umhlane Pumatenja maybe to stop because the opportunity was not right but I had already given him the instruction to shoot Sergeant Khumalo therefore the crime of the murder of your brother rests upon my shoulders.

I understand perfectly well the situation that I have put your family in and I am very sad about it. I explained that God has at last returned by conscience to me. I want to say that in whatever way that you can put me in contact with your family, I will give you all my particulars in prison. You can even come to the prison with the family and I will tell all and say everything to the family. I can even make statements to the effect that you had nothing to do with the death of your brother so that the family can trust you again. You did not know anything about it and your brother was not involved with the political activities nor the objectives that we were carrying out at the time. We didn't even know your brother, he was just unfortunate to be present at a time when a person who was targeted was being shot but I am willing to meet your family to explain that I don't know you and I didn't know your brother but it happened. What happened, happened as I've explained it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any other questions, Mr Mabika?

MR MABIKA: No, I think the applicant has covered what I also wanted to say because I would like him to meet with the family because my situation at home has deteriorated. If there were means or there are means of him and the family to meet I will be very pleased so that he can tell the family what really happened.

Even at work there were a lot of people who were implicated about this. I would be pleased if arrangements could be made for him to speak to those people as well so that the situation could be cleared.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabika, I'm certain that any assistance that you may require will be provided by the Commission to arrange a meeting between you and the applicant or you and members of your family and the applicant. Yes, thank you Mr Mabika.

MR MABIKA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions you wish to ask the witness?

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, we elect not to put any questions to this applicant at this hearing. Our failure to put questions to this applicant at this hearing must not be construed as an admission or an acceptance by those persons whose interests we represent as an admission or an acceptance that his evidence in so far as it implicates them is correct and we place on record that those persons whose interests we represent and those persons whose names we've placed on record already, deny vehemently that they were involved in any of the conspiracies or offenses to which this witness testified. That is all we wish to state Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt.

Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination arising out of questions that have been put to your client by the various legal representatives and other persons?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr Mkhize, I want to go back to the incident of Nati Gumede. I want you to tell the Committee whether or not you believed if Romeo was involved in the theft that he was charged with, the theft of the motor vehicle.

MR MKHIZE: I believe wholeheartedly that Romeo had not been involved in the theft of that car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills. Mr Mpshe, I was going to give you an opportunity afterwards when the panel gives, but I don't know if you want to do it now, it might be more convenient if you want to ask questions at this stage prior to re-examination or at that stage because after the re-examination I'm going to allow the members of the panel to put any questions and at that stage if you want to and then they can have questions arising out of that I think.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Wills, you can continue.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Can you answer that question that's what was the, your belief or your knowledge regarding the theft charges against Mbambo?

MR MKHIZE: I was just saying that the allegation that Romeo had stolen the car was something that confused us especially within the syndicate. We thought of many possibilities. If I can just explain where Romeo stayed in J2, he resided with another policeman known as Mogikosi Dube who was also stationed at eSikhawini. This Mogikose owned a cream BMW. Romeo himself eventually bought a BMW car which is also cream white in colour. There are references, details of where and how or where the car was bought. One was bought by cash, that is Mogikosi's car, but Romeo had paid a R20 000 deposit on his car and he used to pay of the rest in monthly instalments. They were almost similar.

I am trying to explain to the Commission that such an incident gave us an impression that maybe there was a car that went missing somewhere as it had emerged that Zuma's car was missing and those who suspected that Romeo had stolen a car, since Romeo had previously been seen driving Bonkosi's car. But the car that was missing, that is Zungu's car, was charcoal in Bonkosi Dube's car was cream white.

I am trying to explain that there were a lot of possibilities that we looked at to try to explain why there were these allegations that Romeo had stolen a car. Our main concern was to find a motive behind this allegation.

MR WILLS: Mr Mkhize, sorry, just to sum up your evidence, basically what you're saying is you were convinced that Mbambo hadn't stolen the car and it was as a result of that, that you looked to try and find why somebody else had put these charges, trumped up charges against Romeo is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not also correct as the record reflects that you were, or Romeo was acquitted, Mr Mbambo was acquitted for that charge and that you and Mr Hlungwane were also acquitted for any involvement in that robbery charge. Is that correct? I'm referring to count 2 in the indictment.

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is correct. Myself and Hlungwane. I really don't know why we're being charged. I think it was bungling on the part of the investigating officer who thought that maybe we are friends we could also be involved in this incident but it was clear that, in court that, we were not involved and we were all acquitted.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that during the trial of this matter these charges i.e. charges 1 and 2 - the charges involving the robbery were the only charges that you did indeed put up a defence against in the trial?

MR MKHIZE: I didn't even try to refute the evidence, I just kept quiet and the court took the decision to acquit us on it's own, I did not refute the evidence.

MR WILLS: Is it also not true that the evidence in relation to this part of the charges against out of the four weeks of evidence on the merits in this trial, this evidence took approximately two weeks, the evidence concerning the car? Can you remember if that's the case?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I remember, it is so.

MR WILLS: In other words the court, the trial court, went very thoroughly into this theft issue?

MR MKHIZE: A lot of witnesses were called and all evidence was thoroughly questioned.

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Mkhize it wasn't clear in your answers to Mr Ngubane, to my mind, I want to know why were you so worried about Romeo being arrested in relation to this charge?

MR MKHIZE: Firstly Romeo's arrest was very dangerous. Romeo was one of the people that I trusted in the syndicate therefore he's arrest, when we were so busy involved in such a tense war with African National Congress, if you break or if one of the members of the syndicate was arrested that fact alone would mean that our side would be defeated because there would be someone who was no longer there. I would use Romeo in intelligence activities as well as well physical activities therefore the IFP would have really lost out if Romeo was no longer involved in our activities.

Secondly, there was people involved in a political battle knowing very well that his arrest was on political grounds. If I can just explain this, yesterday I said that both these organisations used whatever means to fight off their enemy. If I can just make an example, one day Umbiasi's house was shot at and this was an IFP house but because we knew that this was done for political reasons, we had to sit down with the local leadership that I mentioned yesterday and devised a way that we're going to use since the ANC had attacked, a way for us to retaliate so that they would be sorry for their actions.

At that meeting we decided that Mr Zazi Sibande should be a witness in the trial of Umbiasi's shooting. Zazi Sibande was supposed to testify that he had seen Bongani Nsomi shooting and he had also seen him giving orders to his followers or to his colleagues to shoot. In actual fact, Bongani Nsomi had never even been there at the scene. Even Sibande whom we made into a witness was not at the scene of Umbiasi's shooting but because there was a political struggle, we said Zazi Sibande should testify that he had seen Mr Nsomi shooting at Umbiasi's house.

You should see how intense the war was, we were using all means because we realised that Bongani was strong and was attacking us and we couldn't get hold of him, we couldn't track him down and therefore it was easier to have him arrested and in jail therefore to get rid of him he would have to be arrested or be killed. The only thing we hadn't as yet done was to use traditional medicine against him, bewitch him. That case is known by Mr Nsomi and Sibande was indeed a witness. Bongani knows very well that he was not there but Sibande did in fact give the evidence that he was there. So he knew that this allegation that Romeo has stolen a car could be the same strategy that was being used against us because there was this political struggle and each side wanted to defeat the other.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Mkhize. The last area that I want to cover also related to some of the questions that Mr Ngubane was asking you yesterday and that concerned his questions where there were the attacks on areas and generally ANC areas or ANC buses and he indicated, he was asking you about the risks involved about innocent people getting killed and he was using the phrase "toddlers". What was your feeling about these issues?

MR MKHIZE: Although it is difficult to explain this question, I will explain it according to my party's beliefs or policy.

I would also like to remind you, Mr Wills, that the war between the ANC and the IFP happened in this province of KwaZulu Natal. It mainly happened between Zulu people. If you are aware of the history of the Zulus they are the kind of people who are used to having faction fights. These faction fights involved struggles between Indunas, Chiefs and so on.

Even though this faction fighting stopped, but this spirit of being Zulus remained so when this political struggle started, that was resurrected therefore we should expect that the political war between the Zulus in this province, although it was political, there were other factors that would have influenced it - those factors being cultural.

Traditionally when there's a war, there is no differentiation, you do not target specific persons. Traditionally speaking your enemies are just there to be shot. After you've killed the men you will take the women and make them yours. The war between the ANC and IFP in this province cannot really be separated or differentiated from faction fighting. In faction fights children are killed, everything is killed, even cats. If the war begins traditionally, no one is spared. What happens is that an area that had been declared as an enemy area is annulated therefore we cannot avoid that the war between the ANC and IFP took a similar vein. You cannot really control a war situation.

Even though I admit that when you sit down and think retrospectively, you realise that you were wrong to kill women and children but when it actually happens it's really a situation that you cannot control. Such things do happen. Even in our case it did happen. Our sisters were killed, people like Mathilda and a lot of other people who may not really be known to this Committee. Even within the IFP side there were a lot of women who were killed. I am not by this trying to justify anything but I'm just explaining the situation as it was, as it happened in this province. Therefore we cannot run away, we do not deny that we have killed innocent people.

You can look at the Gommakuta where thirteen people were killed by the Caprivians in collusion with the Boers. You will remember that women and children were killed there. I don't care how much IFP denies this but the truth is that the people who were killed there were killed by us for the reason that we were wanting to murder Mr Ndula. Therefore there is the reason why the IFP slaughtered a goat because they had

killed women and children unintentially. Therefore such things did happen, we should not hide them now that we are here before this Commission. We are well aware of them and we shoulder that responsibility.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Moloi do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman just a few, one aspect actually.

Mr Mkhize I would like you to take me through this one aspect of your evidence. You stated that the establishment of the hit squad was aimed at gathering support for the IFP by eliminating firstly the leadership of your enemy who stood in the way of the IFP gaining membership, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Initially that was their objective yes, some certain leaders within the ANC were identified as problematic but as the war went on we changed and adopted other strategies which we were not discussed before.

MR MOLOI: Ja, I'm quite aware of that. You said you then had to intimidate, so to say, the public in order to join the IFP because people in the circumstances you described would necessarily lend support to the winning side between the two warring sides, ANC and IFP, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: You're also aware from the evidence of Mr Luthuli and you were present when he stated that the IFP had in fact a two pronged strategy namely that publicly they would denounce violence and vehemently so, but in secret they would commit acts of violence?

MR MKHIZE: I was present when Mr Luthuli gave evidence in Durban. Chairperson, it is difficult to state that as policy but what I can say is that is exactly what happened.

In public one thing was said but at night or behind closed doors another was said because of political reasons. I therefore support Mr Luthuli in his evidence.

MR MOLOI: Then the one question that arises in my mind is how would the people know then which is the winners side if the IFP would not publicly claim to have committed those atrocities that would move them towards, let's say, the winning side as you call it?

MR MKHIZE: We should not undermine the intelligence of the public, Chairperson. The community is able to look at a situation and assess although they may not have the power to publicly state or discuss these matters but they do see how things happen.

If you look at a situation - if the IFP did not use violent means, will there have been a reason for them to take 206 members to train them at Caprivi and train them outside the country and in illegal weapons and moreover hide this fact that they are such persons who had been trained in this way. Those are the kind of questions that you should question or ask yourself if they really were employing non-violent means, why would they have engaged in such activities given the fact that there were KwaZulu police who could have protected the Chiefs, Indunas, the property and the IFP members. That could have been done by the KwaZulu police.

You should ask yourself the question why did they have to train people covertly and train them in such a manner.

MR MOLOI: Thank you. Just the last aspect actually on the subject you touched. It is also evidence of Mr Luthuli last week in Durban that there are still members of the Caprivi Group that are moving around in public.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: How dangerous do you personally consider those people to be to the peace in the country especially in KwaZulu Natal?

MR MKHIZE: I think that the present government should do something about this. If they are indeed concerned about the safety of the public. They should be known and we should know where they are and what they are doing. I say this because wherever they are, they have skills, we don't know when they'd also be manipulated into using their skills and given our economic situation in the country, where there are no jobs and in the face of the taxi violence where hitmen in need or are required. I think the government should do something about this because I personally perceive it to be something very important.

MR MOLOI: Are you then individually and you collectively as applicants, that know these people, prepared to expose them?

MR MKHIZE: I have said it many times that even at another forum I am prepared to give evidence about these activities if only that evidence will help the community, it would be my contribution for the wrongs that I have committed against the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi. Mr Motata do you have any questions?

ADV. MOTATA: Just a few, Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Mkhize this peaceful attitude which was preached during the day and now coming to you that you were deployed in the South Coast for instance to mobilise people, in other words, winning them towards Inkatha, you were successful in doing that because you even visited schools where you were recruiting the youth. Is that not correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: And you did that as a trained Caprivian? Would I be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is so.

ADV. MOTATA: You were then subsequently deployed at eSikhawini which is a very big area, isn't it?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is so.

ADV. MOTATA: Your brief, was it different from the South Coast brief because here you were targeting certain people to eliminate them?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: You, personally, when you reflect, don't you think probably you could have done a better job by mobilising people because you were successful in the South Coast?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, I could not have done what was contrary to instructions that I had been given. My training enables me to be capable of mobilising, of convincing and also capable of killing. Therefore my instructions or the instruction that I received, I'm capable of falling into either of these categories.

From time to time I will receive instructions from authorities and do as they requested. If I was asked to mobilise and recruit that is what I would do but if I was told to kill I would also do that because I was also capable of doing it.

The instruction that I was given when I was working at South Coast is different from the instruction I received when I was at eSikhawini.

ADV. MOTATA: Are you suggesting to us that when you had these various meetings with the top hierarchy, the discussions merely centred around who to be eliminated and not even strategy - how you could strategise by probably winning people over to join Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MKHIZE: Let me put it this way. The situation that we were facing at the time had nothing to do with mobilising, you could not have been able to mobilise because of the political situation at the time. There was war. The situation forced us that mobilisation could take place later but prior or the priority was the physical fighting - that was what the political situation looked like.

ADV. MOTATA: Let's just be at eSikhawini. Let's look at H2, it's a big area as well or would I be right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: The objective was that by elimination of the ANC you would wholly have the area as Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MKHIZE: In politics you don't just kill people sir, you kill them on one hand, for instance there will be other strategies that you use as here in eSikhawini we would name roads with such names such as Bambata. Those would be strategies that would be used in certain areas. We would attack and then indicate that this road was now ours and changed it's name. The people knew about this, they saw it happening. You don't just attack and kill them, you attack them and maybe distribute pamphlets that will turn them against the other or indicate that the war is going on. We would distribute these bus stops, at public areas so that when they see these pamphlets, after having hearing gunshots, they will recognise that there is indeed trouble and therefore they will join the winning side, they will realise that one side was losing, that is a political strategy. Political analysts themselves can explain this strategy as I have put it, it is a strategy that is being used or that is used in politics. I am trying to explain that attacks were not just the end, what we wanted was support and destroy those people who we perceived as strong in the enemy camp and thereafter the politicians would mobilise and call meetings and gatherings. A person who did now attend meetings will realise that he or she would also be attacked. He wouldn't do this voluntarily but because he knew that if he didn't attend he would also be the next - what I'm trying to say is that the strategy of mobilising would have followed later, the politicians would have done this and the people would have been told.

ADV. MOTATA: It would appear from the evidence you have given us this far that when you were deployed in eSikhawini you appeared to be a trustworthy who would be placed in command wouldn't that be so?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: And when you got to eSikhawini you realised that there were other Caprivians who were trained specifically to eliminate your opponents, isn't that so?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: And you elected not to use these Caprivians at all but hand picked people you wanted?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: And such people you even, I suppose, advised the higher hierarchy about them?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: Wouldn't you say with the position you had and the trustworthiness you had from the higher hierarchy, you could make suggestions of other strategies of mobilisation for instance not bloodshed, for instance?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, I've already indicated that the situation was such that we could not have started with political strategies because if we did that we would not have succeeded. But I too, as a person who could do my own calculations, realised that the situation wanted bloodshed first and later divert people to the correct direction.

Secondly, I would like to refer to the point that I opted to recruit other people and leave Caprivians behind or out.

You see, for example, if I were fighting you and your wife would be suspected of being in love with me and who would you trust if you trusted your wife before but you would never again divulge your secrets to your wife because you now have suspicions that she is in love with me while I'm your enemy and for example if your wife was drinking alcohol and you would realise that your secrets are no longer safe because people could now easily know because your wife had now become weak and therefore I am trying to say, look at this whole thing from the point of reality.

Let us look at it dramatically as to how it exactly happened. Let us not theorise about this. I explained before the Commission here that these boys were now drinking with girls and they were drinking and had become troublesome at work. We would for example take Umpanza, a drive with him in a van so that he could sober up after having been drinking. That is another Caprivian - I don't know how I could have used such a person in the kind of sensitivities and operations that we were engaged in. I am therefore trying to say, look at this from the point of view of how it exactly happened, do not theorise about it.

ADV. MOTATA: If we look at reality that we even have the background furnished by yourself about the training you received in Caprivi. Part of it was even propaganda.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: When they tell you and you know in yourself that South Africa was occupied not only by the whites and when they said the ANC wanted to take over the country, didn't it in your mind say to you "but how can I be an executionist of my own people?" and more so if we look at the composition of KwaZulu Natal where it is predominantly Zulu. It would be your own people. Didn't you have trust in your own people in other words?

MR MKHIZE: You know politics can force a person to kill his own brother. The kind of politics under which we lived was such that you are a comrade and your brother is an Inkatha. You are the one who should take the lead in killing your brother and I can even quote here at Hammersdale they killed their fathers, their biological fathers, that is a known fact and for example I'm referring to Hammersdale people, they killed their own biological fathers because they were proving to their comrades how loyal they were and how convicted they are.

IFP people did the same thing. They were trying to prove their loyalty, they killed their fathers and therefore the question of patriotism and nationalism is far fetched when you're looking at this whole situation.

For example, if you look at the faction fights I can tell you that this is how the Amazulu operated. A person would for example go and kill another person of his own tribe on the other side of the street knowing that there is a relative on the other side but a person would move there to kill.

ADV. MOTATA: In other words Mr Mkhize you firstly listened to the evidence given by Mr Dalukolu Luthuli in Durban that the IFP from inception was leaning towards the African National Congress - you recall him saying that because you were present?

MR MKHIZE: Please you repeat the question?

ADV. MOTATA: That when Inkatha Freedom Party was formed it was regarded as an ANC wing internally, you recall him giving that evidence?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I still recall that.

ADV. MOTATA: And he said during the meetings which they had with the SADF, he became suspicious that now "this was entirely for the Boers" to quote him, that Inkatha was no longer furthering for instance some of the aims of the African National Congress, do you recall that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

ADV. MOTATA: Now when you were saying we can even throw a party, kill your own brother, the propaganda which you were given at Caprivi during your training, was it saying now - "we want these Boers to continue to rule us and ANC out" which meant ANC are your brothers, their blood brothers, that they shouldn't rule this country but the Boers should continue to do so?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not the case. I did not understand it that way. What I know is that the ANC - for example we as the IFP were declared as a stumbling block. They regarded us as an obstacle in achieving our goal by reaching the Boer or getting at the Boers. For example - looking at the Bantustans and the system, this I did speak about yesterday and the fact that we allowed our children to continue with Bantu education whereas they were saying, people should not go to schools, schools should be banned until liberation was acquired.

We differed in so many things, but, if I were to state here before this Commission, I can see the divide and rule strategy that was being used by the Boers so that we can kill one another because the Boers succeeded in setting the IFP against the ANC so that they could be free. They kept us at a arms length distance so that we could fight among ourselves without getting any nearer to them. They succeeded in doing that especially here in KwaZulu Natal because the IFP here was strong with their leader. I do understand that very well but we can also say that there was nothing the IFP could have done if the ANC had declared us as enemies that had to be attacked. We also heard here before this Commission certain truthful revelations were made that the ANC did plan that Inkosuthelezi should be attacked, that is no secret it is a known fact. It is also a fact that the IFP also lost about four hundred of their leaders not knowing who killed them without referring actually to the followers, just ask yourself who killed these people and therefore all of these suspicions that the ANC declared the IFP as a stumbling block is actually confirmed. They wanted to get rid of the IFP first so that they could move on to their enemy and therefore nobody could just sit back whilst being attacked because life is the first priority.

Inkatha was therefore forced to do something to defend themselves and the situation worsened. I do not want to believe that Inkatha's initial aim was to fight in the manner in which they did with the ANC but the situation worsened and they attacked each other. That is not what they had initially planned but they were forced by the circumstances and the plots that were being carried out, ANC plots to obliterate Inkatha completely.

ADV. MOTATA: Would you say now, Mr Mkhize, that was the propaganda fed to you or that is a situation you realised yourself, taking your advice that we should not theorise, I want to at this instance not to theorise the tenor of your answer to me is that you said you sort of realised the situation - is that what you saw yourself was obtaining

or was that what you were fed?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot deny that that is part of the indoctrination because I don't know how much propaganda was used by the Boers. Remember that the SADF was the one that was also equally involved. The Nats were behind this and I cannot disown the kind of propaganda that was fed to me by the Boers and as I was growing in politics I started seeing things differently but I can say the Boers succeeded because that was now being added to by what was happening on the ground. I did see schools burned down by the UDF and I saw people being necklaced, people were petrolled and necklaced and thus the propaganda for the Boers succeeded because of the things that were happening at the time.

Councillors for example were regarded as IFP members because they belonged to the KwaZulu Government. I did see them being burned in front of me. I did see people made to drink the soaps that they had bought from shops. I did them made to drink those sunlight liquid soaps and the UDF was responsible for this. What I am saying here is that the Boers propaganda was exacerbated by what was exactly happening in the community at the time and that made us to believe, thus the propaganda of the Boers succeeded.

ADV. MOTATA: Let's come back home to eSikhawini. You told us that within that district there were five police stations for instance, did I hear you correctly?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: Did each and every police station have it's own Station Commander?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. That is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: In other words where you were stationed you were independent of the other police stations?

MR MKHIZE: I was stationed at D.C.- District Commandant - in other words I had the privilege and the right to move around all the five police stations. I was not stationed at the eSikhawini Police Station. I would move round to all these different police stations at Umbumalanga and eSikhawini as well.

ADV. MOTATA: Now why would you for instance say to Brigadier Msemela I need legal and financial assistance until we are given assurance that where you are you wouldn't be arrested because you and in this area, occupied a certain hierarchy which you could not be arrested. Why did you want that from Brigadier Msemela?

MR MKHIZE: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV. MOTATA: Why did you want the assurance, I'll rephrase it the other way, why did you want some assurance from Brigadier Msemela where he said for instance "don't worry" when you wanted legal and financial support, you recall you saying that? That is on the 15th?

MR MKHIZE: I did not say to Msemela that I wanted financial assistance and assurance that I would not be arrested, I did not say that to Brigadier Msemela.

ADV. MOTATA: To whom did you want that assurance for, let's get it from you.

MR MKHIZE: What I said was that Romeo is the one who wanted what you have just explained and I then arranged to take Romeo to make those arrangements and I then explained how it happened. I did not say that I went to Msemela for assurance and assistance.

ADV. MOTATA: Let's leave it for a second. Are you saying that Romeo, when you wanted this type of assistance it's when he was now being pressed with the robbery charge?

MR MKHIZE: No nothing had happened at the time. I was still busy persuading him to be part of the syndicate that we were starting. That was not connected to his arrest.

ADV. MOTATA: Let's look at your visiting the shebeen where there was an unpleasant scuffle, do you recall when you had a fight at the shebeen?

MR MKHIZE: Yes I do.

ADV. MOTATA: You went to that shebeen knowing fully well that was an ANC territory or shebeen?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is correct.

ADV. MOTATA: Because you were now doing covert operations for the IFP under the guise of being a policeman, did you think people knew that that was just a facade?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain yesterday what I was doing placed my life in a dangerous position.

ADV. MOTATA: And when you went there when you knew the shebeen was patronised as you said by the UDF or ANC allied people didn't you regard your visitation there as provocation to the ANC or UDF?

MR MKHIZE: If I were to explain here I have friends within the ANC, several of them, I met some of them at such places. Firstly I had confidence in myself and I knew that I could defend myself should anything happen and that helped me to gather certain information which we would use as an organisation and I also indicated that the owner of the shebeen was my cousin and he came from Ingandla originally. These are the reasons that prompted me to go there. There are several people whom I actually built up and recruited knowing fully well that they were ANC members. I knew that they were only ANC members in so far as support is concerned. There were no activities which could make it difficult for me to make friends with them. I was also a human being just like anybody else, I also needed time to cool off and take a few drinks with friends, especially the kind of work that we were doing was quite traumatising. One could not cope if there was no escape for which one could forget. Those are the reasons which drove me to patronise the shebeen or to go to the shebeen and we enjoyed at that place.

Inkatha used to work as a small group at J2. Only they could not be found at any other place. There was no longer any good living experience at the time, no one could sit down and relax and enjoy himself because the ANC was active in the area and therefore it was not easy for a person to do like I did, patronise an ANC shebeen. I did what I did because I trusted myself, I knew I could defend myself.

ADV. MOTATA: Wouldn't you regard then that it is an unfair judgement on the other Caprivians that they were drunkards when you were also at times getting under the weather?

MR MKHIZE: The people had been taught discipline, a military person has discipline. If they could not stick to the disciplinary principal, I therefore am not one who isolated them but their deeds, their actions isolated them and that is discipline.

ADV. MOTATA: Lastly Mr Mkhize, these Caprivians who were undisciplined, who lived here at eSikhawini. To your knowledge did they perpetrate or were they were executing people without your knowledge? Did you know of something of that nature?

MR MKHIZE: No. No there is nothing to my knowledge regarding that. At the time that I had brought together this unit there were others who also came to join us and I took up the opportunity to rehabilitate them and I ended up engaging them in several operations. I had already started my operations facing the ANC and when they came back people like Romeo were already senior within in the syndicate even though Romeo was not a Caprivian. I started afresh rehabilitating some of them because of their heavy drinking.

ADV. MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mkhize. Thank you Mr Chairman. I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motata. Ms Khampepe do you have any questions?

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mkhize, I will not subject you to any extensive questioning since my colleagues have questioned you quite extensively. A few questions that I'm going to pose to you will only be restricted to the formation of your hit squad, it's structure and it's chain of command because I have problems with some of your evidence. But before I do that, my colleague Advocate Motata ...[inaudible] to choose to mobilise people in order to win ANC areas over to the IFP instead of going through an extensive atrocity of killing them as you did and if I understand your evidence, it is to the effect that it was not within your mandate to have exercised that election because you were ordered specifically at the Ulundi meeting only to execute instructions as they were communicated to you either by the local leadership or that IFP hierarchy as you have referred to it in your evidence and in your affidavit. Do I understand your evidence correctly in that regard?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now the IFP hierarchy that you've referred to that gave you instructions or orders in 1991 and consisted of Mr M.Z. Khumalo, Prince Gideon Zulu, Captain Hlungwane, Mr Luthuli, Mr Msemela - only gave you instructions then to eliminate targets that would have been identified by it or by the local leadership but they did not give you instructions to form or establish hit squad, am I correct in so assuming?

MR MKHIZE: First of all at that meeting it was agreed that a person who would be my handler was Captain Hlungwane.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, I'm going to interrupt you Mr Mkhize, I would want you to really restrict yourself to my questions, just listen to my questions properly and don't give an elaboration, I will tell you if I want you to elaborate. Have I posed I think the evidence as I listen to you and read your affidavits properly that at that stage that initial meeting at that hour when you were appointed to eliminate targets identified by that structure or the local leadership, at that time, at that stage - you were not given any instructions to form any hit squad?

MR MKHIZE: No, that was indeed the formation of the hit squads because I could not have functioned alone and it was therefore indicated to Hlungwane that he and I should be the one who would discuss this as we would be working hand in hand.

MS KHAMPEPE: We are still on the same wavelength. You were then told that Captain Hlungwane would be the person under whom you would be reporting?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: And subsequent to that meeting Captain Hlungwane then gave you a directive to appoint other suitable persons to assist you in the operation because it was anticipated that there would be a litany of operations to be carried out by you and you needed sufficient resources to be able to do so?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you understand Captain Hlungwane's directive to mean that you had to have a permanent squad of these suitable persons or did you understand those directives to mean that you could appoint suitable persons capable of executing those operations as and when the need arose? That is my question.

MR MKHIZE: I understood it to mean that what we were forming at the time was something that was to be permanent in the fight against the ANC. This was actually a process that could take even years in other words, this was going to be a squad that would exist for a long time until such time that our goal was achieved.

MS KHAMPEPE: But was that to be a permanent squad in existence during the duration of it's existence or could it be a squad which probably consisted of certain people who would be there permanently and the others would be appointed as the need arose to so appoint them?

MR MKHIZE: Let me state that at the time we did not go as far as that which you have just explained.

MS KHAMPEPE: Let me tell you why I am grappling with that difficulty. A number of people were used in your operations like Joyful Mtetwa and a number of constables who were part of the KwaZulu Police and these were covert operations. How did they come to be used if you did not understand your directive to mean that you could appoint people as or when the need arose?

MR MKHIZE: This was such that the situation was unpredictable. The war that we were facing started exacerbating ...[intervention] because we knew that this was

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mkhize, I think you and I will have to speak a little louder to enable the people at the back to hear. MR MKHIZE: I am saying - first of all I said situation was unpredictable, one could not plan before ahead. There are some things that one would come across once in the middle of the war and this would necessitate the diversion of what had been initially planned or wished and for example like your statement as you have just indicated, you are quite correct, for example, if you look at the undercover operations, these were very sensitive operations which could result in some of our leaders being arrested. I fully therefore understand that there are perhaps instances where I personally may have had the responsibility of being a commander of conquering, I could have used way which were out of that which was agreed upon but I did this because of the growing tension of the war. The involvement for example of the K Z Police Officers who were not necessarily Caprivians knowing that they were Inkatha members at hear. For example, Zwele Dlamini's brother, Dumsani Dlamini, he was not a Caprivian he was just an ordinary police officer within the KwaZulu Police but knowing his background from Hammersdale, knowing that he was born within an Inkatha family, knowing that he was Zwele's brother, Zwele a Caprivian, I found myself using him in other operations but I had not initially agreed on this with my handlers at the time when they appointed me to put together this syndicate, I do agree with you.

MS KHAMPEPE: That being so, why didn't you recruit the people that you used because in some instances you used quite a number of people for several operations. Why were you not able to recruit them into your squad?

MR MKHIZE: There was no need to recruit because there was just fighting going on. Whether they were recruited or whether they were recognised at their upper echelons or whether they were just recognised by myself was not important. That was not important, what was important at the stage was that I had to have manpower by which I could conquer. That is why I am saying I agree with what you are saying.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you were instructed by Mr Luthuli in 1991 to attend the meeting at Ulundi where you were appointed as a commander of these hit squads, were you told the reason why you of all the Caprivians who were at eSikhawini was appointed?

MR MKHIZE: No, that was the secret of my authorities, I personally also do not know why they appointed me.

MS KHAMPEPE: But you felt honoured by that appointment and you did not want to disappoint them?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now I want to move to one aspect of the constitution of your hit squad other than the KZP that you have alluded to. At that stage when you recruited Maklagani Pumatenja, Lucky Umbiasi and I can't remember the other person I think the surname is Mlambo. What were they doing?

MR MKHIZE: I have explained before this Commission, I think on Tuesday, that there were already people fighting the ANC and they were giving Inkatha by so doing a breathing space. and that is something that is not only a knowledge confined to me, the entire public at eSikhawini knew very well - they referred to these people as "Sisha" they knew who these people were.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were they being paid for those activities?

MR MKHIZE: No they just fought under their movement fighting their political enemies but they had the skill, I know that because I was a police officer, I knew because all of these incidences were reported at the police station. I also used to come in to set them apart.

MS KHAMPEPE: But how would you being a policeman enable you to know whether they were being paid for the operations that were conducted before you recruited them into your squad?

MR MKHIZE: I have explained yesterday that there were donations that were made by the community and I for example spoke about those referred to as "Oteleweni" within Inkatha because these things happened in such a way that people ended up being given certain houses where they could gather and do their things. These houses were houses belonging to those who were driven out for being suspected of belonging to a certain organisation where ANC people were driven out, these are actually the houses that were used by Oteleweni and they would name these houses such as Snake Park etc. and these boys therefore were able to gather in those houses and they collected monies from the community sometimes forcefully to buy bullets, guns and things like that. That is why I am saying they were not paid for the operations. I could not know that as an old Inkatha member. I know how these things happened and how they were done.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were the identities of your hit squad members known to your hierarchy at a national level which consisted of the people who you initially reported to and who appointed you in 1991?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, people who were well known were for example Romeo, they brought me Zwele Dlamini and Israel Hlungwane. I had also explained that the rest like Dumsani Dlamini, how they came to join but what I can say is that the ones who were well known are the ones that I have just enumerated. Captain Hlungwane for example knew very well that the squad had grown. I don't know whether he was a person who gave the same attention to other people but he knew that boys were available to my disposal for assistance, he knew that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now in your affidavit you've referred to certain code names and just for clarification I wanted to know why certain people were given certain names, why was Mrs Umbiasi given the name Mukabai?

MR MKHIZE: It is because at the time we called her Mukabai because of her bravery, we knew that if you follow the history of Amazulu, Mukabai who was a sister to Sinsanakona played a very important role ruling this nation giving instructions as to who should be killed and who should not be killed. She is the one we know very well who instructed that Chaka be killed, she is the one who appointed Dingaan to Chaka's position that is why she ended up dying at Ebakaluzini because of her bravery and deeds perhaps and it is because of those reasons that we referred to Mrs Umbiasi as Mukabai, it is the manner in which she managed to handle things as a woman and we regarded this as bravery and wisdom and we saw the name Mukabai appropriate. People know very well that a woman who can drive alone in a car, wanted the manner in which she was and when her car approached the ANC people would just flee.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, just one question.

You mentioned that you were disillusioned by senior members of the Inkatha Freedom Party for not keeping their promises and assisting you after your arrest and you've also denied rumours that you are a member of the ANC. Are you still a members of the IFP at this stage now or have you disassociated yourself not only from those senior members who you are disillusioned with or from the whole party?

MR MKHIZE: I was saying this because I wanted to make it clear to people that I am not saying this now because I am an ANC member, I am not saying this because of being an ANC member, I explained yesterday what reasons, I gave four reasons. That is why I gave those reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you still a member of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: I was not sent off, I was not actually fired, I am still a card carrying member of the IFP. I have not been fired to date, they have just disowned me, I can say they have sold me out.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills do you have any questions arising from questions that were put by the panel?

Sorry, would you please be quiet?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson, just one. The Committee Member Ms Khampepe asked you about the other persons who came in from time to time to assist you in your operations, she mentioned the name Joyful Mtetwa. We know there were a number of others - Victor Buthelezi and a host of other people. Did at any stage were you approached by any of the hierarchy in Ulundi and by that I refer specifically to your commander Captain Hlungwane to Mr Luthuli to M.Z. Khumalo or to Prince Gideon Zulu. Did at any stage they come to you and complain about the fact that you were using other persons?

MR MKHIZE: No, they did not. What was important to them was whether I was achieving victory.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mogadi do you have any questions arising?

MR MOGADI: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Just one question Mr Chairman.

Now Mr Mkhize is it correct that in spite of the fact that you used people who were initially not approved by the higher authorities of Inkatha. They subsequently ratified their actions by complimenting you that you were doing a good job?

MR MKHIZE: They did get reports from me and reports to the effect that I was winning. Captain Hlungwane in particular -I did indicate to Mrs Khampepe as well that I informed him that I had also brought in other people who were helping me, people whose names I have also mentioned but he did not object to that and he did not really have a problem. He did not say I should not do that or I should fire them or he did not even demote me.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I don't have any questions to the witness but there is something that I would like to get clarity on from the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there are two issues that were raised yesterday and perhaps they were unintentionally left unattended or left hanging. Perhaps I should refer to them as request by Mr Khumalo as well as my colleague Mr Ngubane. You recall Mr Chairman, Mr Ngubane made an informal application, I say informal because it was not substantiated that Dr Nglanga be subpoenaed and Mr Khumalo made a similar request in respect of inter alia Mr Hlungwane, M.Z. Khumalo, Biela and Umbiasi. We would like to have clarity from the Committee so we should know myself and my colleague what steps we should take hereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, does anybody want to make any comment on this?

MR NGUBANE: Well Mr Chairman if the Committee could give us some time to consider the position over the weekend and then we'll decide whether we're pursuing the application on Monday or on subsequent days thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think on this one we'll do that. Mr Ngubane at the time indicated that the this could be dealt with at any stage during the hearing but I would like you to look specifically at the question of the power or the jurisdiction of the sub-committee such as this subpoenaing, issuing subpoena or authorising a subpoena in respect of an implicated person - my prima facie view is that if an implicated person receives notice in terms of section 19 of the act then that implicated person has a right to make submissions, tender evidence or to say nothing at all before the Commission as the implicated person is given a variety of options. The question is different with regard to section 29 enquiries and if you could then, Mr Ngubane, if you say you're going to look at it over the weekend, you can take a look at this aspect as to whether an implicated person, who has been served notice can be subpoenaed to give evidence thereby detrimentally effecting that implicated person's statutory rights as contained in section 19.4 of the Act and also with regard to Mr Nglange, if one takes a look at section 30 of the Act, sorry Dr. Nglange, he's just been mentioned as an implicated person for the first time during the actual hearing unlike the persons being represented by Mr Hewitt who got prior notification. If one looks at section 30 of the Act, it will be seen in the event of that happening, then it is incumbent upon the Commission to issue a notification to that implicated person who then has the same options as if a notice had been given in terms of section 19.4. I just mention this now for you to consider during the course of the weekend.

I think this would be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment, it's already late. We'll take the tea adjournment at this stage and then Mr Wills will we be commencing with the evidence of Mr Mbambo after that?

MR WILLS: Yes that's correct. Obviously we won't be in a position to finish the evidence of Mr Mbambo but it looks as if we will have an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo just for the record is applicant number five.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes that's correct. Thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee.

Mr Mbambo you have made an application for amnesty which forms part of the record. The application form you completed is page 1 of the record and attached to that is a lengthy affidavit which goes up to page 68 of the record. Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now you've obviously been through this affidavit very carefully, you've read it and do you confirm the contents of that affidavit to be true and to the best of your knowledge correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee what I propose to do which I think would be the best and most efficient way of proceeding in the circumstances is to lead Mr Mbambo on obviously his personal circumstances, the reasons why he got involved in this type of activity because those are unique to himself and then with the leave of the Committee I just intend asking him whether or not he confirms the evidence of Mr Mkhize in the other incidents in which he was involved together with Mr Mkhize, but in doing so, I full expect - know that the Committee has got the details as described in the affidavit by Mr Mbambo and obviously he'd be free to be questioned by any of the parties on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you and he may also find it necessary if he was involved in certain operations with Mr Mbambo described a role he himself played without setting out the whole background and the reason for the operation which we already have on record from Mr Mkhize unless he differs from Mr Mkhize of course.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbambo, I'm going to take you through your affidavit which commences at page 4 of the record, your paragraph, your affidavit page 1. At the time of this affidavit you were 26 years of age, you matriculated at Tugela High School at Mandini on the Natal North Coast and you resided in Umulazi. Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: It is so.

MR WILLS: You - at the time of your arrest were a KwaZulu policeman with the rank of Detective Constable and with the service number 2976.

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR WILLS: And you were stationed at the eSikhawini Detective Branch?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: As a result of some of the activities which have been detailed you were convicted in and are presently a sentenced prisoner and you are serving your sentence at Westville Prison under prison number 95159457?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: You in fact are in the process of serving what effectively is a seventy five year sentence. Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: You allege in paragraph 4 of your statement that the activities you got into were as a result of a political motivation. Can you just briefly tell the Committee what you mean by that?

MR MBAMBO: I say this for the reason that I was a member of the IFP from the time that I grew up until the time became a member of the KwaZulu Police.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Mbambo if you could speak a bit louder, I think some of the people at the back of the hall haven't got microphones or perhaps you could bring that microphone a little bit closer and it will amplify your voice.

MR MBAMBO: It's because of the reason that when I grew up and until the time that I joined the KwaZulu Police I was a member of the IFP. When I grew up when I was still school, at primary in Mandini my parents - my mother was a teacher at that school. She was one of the teachers who taught the subject Inkatha which was then a cultural subject and my father was also an IFP members although he was not a teacher. He worked in Durban for Shell.

We grew up in the struggle in Inkatha, as a youth until I finished school, when I grew up there was conflict between the IFP youth and the UDF youth. When I finished school I joined the KwaZulu Police. After joining the force I was stationed at eSikhawini Police Station.

Shortly after my arrival there I discovered that there was a great conflict between the ANC and the IFP. I did not get myself involved in that conflict until the time when I was approached by Mkhize who was also a member of the KwaZulu Police at eSikhawini Police Station. He came to my room at J2 and introduced himself to me although I already knew his name because we were working together. He then asked me if I knew about the Israelis. I said I did have knowledge because it was common knowledge within the KwaZulu Police that...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbambo, I'm going to request you to speak a little slower because you are too fast and we are trying to write what you are saying whilst it is being interpreted.

MR WILLS: Yes also Mr Mbambo, I'm going to get into detail about those incidents later. If you can also just give your evidence in little bits, that will assist the Committee and in my questions, we'll be going through what the details that you've been given which do appear in your affidavit.

What I'm driving at when I asked you the question, Mr Mbambo, about why did you think your activities were politically motivated? What I'm asking you is why did you do, in a short two or three sentences, why did you do what you've detailed here, why did you perform these crimes?

MR MBAMBO: I did these crimes because I had been given instruction to do them by the hit squad members at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: And what did you think the result of this would be? We know that you were given instructions, that's clear from the affidavit but why, what do you think the effect of your activities would be?

MR MBAMBO: This would have greatly effected the ANC because the people that we were supposed to kill were ANC members and they had been identified by the B.S.I. and the local leadership as people who were a threat to the organisation, the IFP. Therefore some of these members or some of these people were good at mobilising people to join the ANC therefore that effected the strength of the IFP. Therefore, in killing these members of the ANC it would weaken the IFP's opposition, therefore the IFP will also be able to then mobilise and gain strength.

MR WILLS: Yes you've given very quick evidence about your upbringing, about your parents being members, supporting members of Inkatha. Were they in fact quite - I heard the word used staunch members of the IFP and Inkatha?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they were.

MR WILLS: Your joining of the KwaZulu Police which occurred in, well some time after 1985, you've indicated that it was in a way as a result of the relationship you had with a person whose name has been mentioned here before, a person Sipiwhe Umviana, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you describe to the Committee what your relationship with this person was and then later who this person actually was?

MR MBAMBO: When we grew up Sipiwhe Umviana was ...[inaudible] in P Section at Umlazi. I was staying at F Section. We were at the same Karate School, that means High School. We were friends since that time from that Karate School.

MR WILLS: Please remember to talk slowly, people are taking notes.

MR MBAMBO: I said that Sipiwhe resided at Umlazi, staying at Section P whilst I stayed a section F. We both attended a Karate School in other words a dojo of Menzi High School. That is where we started to become friends because we trained together, we continued being friends until the time that Sipiwhe joined the South African Police.

MR WILLS: And did Mr Umviani influence you to become a member of the KwaZulu Police in any way?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he was the reason why I ended up joining the KwaZulu Police because when he returned from college he worked as a South African Police and he was also a member of the IFP. At that time I was still at school. When I finished school he influenced me to join the KwaZulu Police because at that time he had become a KwaZulu Police member.

MR WILLS: Yes and you detail in paragraph 7 of your affidavit, the time when you accompanied this Umviani to Ulundi where he had a meeting with the IFP President, Mr Buthelezi, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: Now when I refer to the end of your paragraph 7 you say that Umviani was requested that he go and work at Ulundi and that he issued conditions as to whether or not he would work at Ulundi - he would only go there if he was made in charge of a certain branch, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: Now it seems strange to me that someone of the rank of a constable can make those sorts of demands. Can you elaborate on why he was in that position?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly Sipiwhe did not like to go work at Ulundi the reason that Dr M G Buthelezi was insisting that he come work at Ulundi was because there were investigators from the SAP who were investigating cases that Sipiwhe had been involved in whilst he was working for the IFP as well as the Goldstone Commission and they were insisting that Sipiwhe should be suspended but the Chief Minister was refusing that he be suspended because he was one of his strongest members who was also active in performing activities that would benefit IFP. So he called Sipiwhe to Ulundi. At that meeting Sipiwhe went to Ulundi with me. We went to the KwaZulu Parliament, Sipiwhe went into the office of the Chief Minister and he had a meeting for about two hours. After that we returned and he told me about everything that had gone on between him and the Chief Minister in the meeting. He told me that he was not prepared to go work at Ulundi if he was not going to be made a Branch Commander of a certain unit. He was demanding this because he knew he had a good reputation amongst the IFP leadership especially with the Chief Minister who had spoken several times publicly congratulating him on his activities. Therefore he put this demand forward that if he was to work at Ulundi he would have to have his own unit.

At that time the KwaZulu Police did not have a firearm unit so that because of Sipiwhe's demand this unit was launched and Sipiwhe was made a Commander of this firearm unit and the Chief Minister also gave Sipiwhe a house at D Section in Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Yes, you mentioned that he was one of Inkatha's strongest supporters. What do you mean by that?

MR MBAMBO: He was not just an important member of the IFP but he was regarded as a hero in the IFP and within the KwaZulu government because his work was accepted and recognised by the Chief Minister, Dr Buthelezi. Sipiwhe did not report to everyone but to three people - Mr Sabelo who was a member of the Legislative Assembly who resided at Umlazi, Brigadier Mate as well as the Chief Minister, Dr Buthelezi.

All of his activities where he killed UDF and ANC members he would report this activities to the people I've just mentioned and he was highly recommended for this.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that when he was a strong member you're in fact saying that he was strong in the sense that he also got up to the same sorts of things that you people were doing eventually at eSikhawini and he was very successful in this regard?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: And it is for that reason that he was a hero as you put it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that at the time you were finishing school that he was also your hero?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I idolised him very much and I regarded him as a role model.

MR WILLS: Now you went into the KwaZulu Police and you did your normal police training there and you were posted at eSikhawini when you had finished?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now when you were doing your KwaZulu Police training was there an acknowledgement of the rightful existence of other political parties in your training in the KwaZulu Police or was it one sided training?

MR MBAMBO: Who were trained were IFP members. You would not be able to join the KwaZulu Police if you were a member of the UDF or ANC for the reason that you would apply after that then the B.S.I. would screen the person to check if the particulars that had been supplied in the application form were correct like his address, his parents' political background, whether they were ANC or IFP members. The school at which you had been educated, whether you were involved in strikes. If it was discovered you were somehow involved in politics but were not an IFP member you would not be recruited into the force therefore all members of the KwaZulu Police had an IFP background or their parents' had that background.

MR WILLS: So, am I correct in saying that right up until the time when you were posted to eSikhawini essentially the only political influences that you encountered in your life were those that were supportive of the IFP and Inkatha?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is true.

MR WILLS: And the converse of that is also correct in the sense that by the time you had reached that period of your life what was your opinion of the UDF and the ANC and I'm talking about the period now before you got involved in the hit squads?

MR MBAMBO: I was against the UDF and the ANC because there had already been a conflict between these two although at that time we did not use guns it was mainly the use of stones and sticks in this conflict so even before I became a member of the hit squad I was a staunch IFP member, I had never had any relations with the UDF or ANC, we were enemies.

MR WILLS: It seems that that was probably the reason why Mr Mkhize approached you, would you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: Early in 1992 and I'm referring to page 6 of the record paragraph 10, Mr Mkhize approached you to join his squad. Now we've indicated here that you've indicated that he approached you and that you were aware of the Israelites and he in fact told you that he at that stage was a Caprivian trainee, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR WILLS: Now what - you've also indicated that in your affidavit that later you went to a meeting at Ulundi but prior to you going to Ulundi what did Mr Mkhize tell you he wanted to do?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Mkhize told me that he had been sent by the leadership of the IFP in collaboration with the officers of the KwaZulu Police to assemble a group that would be under the Israelites who were going to be fighting against the ANC for the reason that it was becoming clear to the IFP leadership that the ANC was superior to the IFP. In eSikhawini all the other sections belonged to the ANC.

MR WILLS: Now why did you accept this, why didn't you just go and report Mr Mkhize to the police and say you're not prepared to do this sort of thing?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly when Mr Mkhize approached me with this I did not accept it easily, not because I thought it was unacceptable but because I wanted assurance. For him to approach me was an honour because I had hatred for the ANC, I was against the ANC and I was also a member of the KwaZulu Police knowing that the ANC was on a campaign to wipe out the KwaZulu Police because they knew that they were working with IFP so he approaching me with this matter was not a problem especially after I had explained that he had been sent by the IFP leadership as well as officers in the KwaZulu Police. I felt this would in fact honour me in protecting the Kingdom of KwaZulu as well as the Chiefdom and the people of KwaZulu, therefore I was honoured by this.

MR WILLS: Yes that's one of the things that I found quite strange about the evidence of Mr Mkhize, maybe you can elaborate on this, is that Mr Mkihize wasn't a senior rank in the KwaZulu Police, is that not so? He was a constable.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct, he was a constable.

MR WILLS: And that is the highest rank that he achieved whilst he was in the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: But if his evidence is correct it seems that he could phone people who were very senior, people who were even more senior than the people who were stationed at eSikhawini Police Station and the senior politicians. Why was this?

MR MBAMBO: I did not concern myself to find out a reason why it was Mkhize who had approached me. As I had said before, I had an idea that there were people within the force who were known as Israelites. Those people were supposed to have been trained in Israel and were trained by the IFP to effect the objectives of the IFP in fighting the ANC so I knew that it was not the KwaZulu Police who undertook this job but it was Inkatha itself that had undertaken this. So when Mkhize approached me I did not really wish to object and I understood what he was saying but I would only be too happy if I could meet the leadership so that I could have an assurance that I do not fall into wrong hands and get into trouble.

MR WILLS: Yes and you in fact then went with Mr Mkhize, sorry initially you said you had a discussion with Mrs Umbiasi and by that I refer to paragraph 11 of your affidavit and then after seeing Mrs Umbiasi, you went to Ulundi and you had a meeting with certain people, at Ulundi, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: And those persons at that meeting, to the best of your knowledge, who was there?

MR MBAMBO: There was Dalakala Luthuli also known as Mdlanduna, M.Z. Khumalo, Captain Hlungwane, Mr Robert Msemela and Prince Gideon Zulu and that meeting was held in Captain Hlungwane's office in the KwaZulu parliament.

MR WILLS: Now what did they say at this meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly - then he introduced me to them and said as you had sent me this is Romeo Mbambo with whom we work at eSikhawini, I have decided to bring him to you so that he can be introduced formally. Captain Hlungwane and M.Z. Khumalo indicated that they already knew me because they had seen me at the passing out parade and the police college. They were very pleased to have a member of my calibre in the formation of the hit squad that was going to fight the ANC in the eSikhawini and surrounding areas.

MR WILLS: We just must be absolutely clear here - at that meeting did they tell you as you state in paragraph 13 of your affidavit that they had formed a hit squad with the purpose of eliminating leaders of opposing political groups like the ANC and their allies?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they expressed it clearly that they were tired of the ANC because they could see that they were failing in this province so what they were doing, they were realising that the IFP was stronger in rural areas and the ANC had adopted a strategy to enter into these areas and kill Amakosi and Isinduna because they knew that Amakosi and Isinduna will the people who forced people to join the IFP. So they said they were tired, they would no longer allow communists to kill their Chiefs and Indunas.

MR WILLS: So at that meeting you knew clearly that your work was actually going to be involved in killing people?

MR WILLS: Yes I know that.

MR WILLS: So again, why didn't you go to the police and report this, you've heard the way Mr Khumalo, the deceased's younger brother was questioning Mr Mkhize yesterday. You were a policeman, you were trained to protect lives - why didn't you go and report this to someone?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I was a policeman but I also had a background of an IFP member so I think that was the reason why it was easy to me to accept this and for me to feel honoured about this.

MR WILLS: You didn't give me the answer that I wanted to an earlier question. You refer to feeling honoured, is it usual for someone so junior in rank like you were constable in those days, to meet with such high officials?

MR MBAMBO: Such things would not happen, it was not usual for a constable to meet with such authorities within the KwaZulu Government. That on it's own made me feel important within the IFP and the KwaZulu Government.

MR WILLS: Now you refer in the second last sentence in paragraph 5, you say and again referring to the same meeting that "they informed me that what we are to do was not only for us or for the Chief Minister but for the nation." Now which nation do you mean when you refer to the nation?

MR MBAMBO: They were talking about generally all AmaZulu.

MR WILLS: So the Zulu nation in other words?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You indicate in paragraph 15 that during this discussion it was emphasised by these people that specific people were to be targeted but you were to take care not to kill or injure innocent people, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you also mention that you were instructed not to write anything down and tear up photographs that had been provided by the B.S.I. Did you at times get photographs from the B.S.I. regarding certain people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes we did receive certain photos - members of the ANC.

MR WILLS: So if you can just explain, it's an area that Mr Mkhize didn't really cover in detail. What was the relationship or what role did the B.S.I. play in this general operation and again just for the record the B.S.I. is the Bureau for State Intelligence, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Is it not investigation Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Ms Committee Member, that is indeed so.

MR MBAMBO: The B.S.I. was a wing within the KwaZulu Police and their duty was not necessarily to arrest people - they were working with the Inkatha leaders and we knew fully well that all the structures or areas of residence, their were Indunas and Chiefs and those Indunas would not be appointed if they were not members of the IFP and we also knew fully well that the Chief there were members of the IFP. Those who were not IFP members would have to be killed and the ones who were present were Chiefs and strong IFP members and we also had the townships where the community knew that their was a Mayor and Councillors.

Townships that were under the KwaZulu Government and the Mayors were appointed on condition that they were members of the IFP. For example, the existence of the B.S.I. suggested that these Councillors, Indunas and everybody else knew people who resided in their areas. B.S.I. therefore had files of people who were members of the ANC in those areas which were under these Councillors and Indunas.

If a person under a certain Councillor was a member of the ANC, the B.S.I. would weekly, for example there would be a police or a member of the B.S.I. would be assigned to handle particular files for example Bogani Nsomi's file, monitor that person, monitor every movement that he makes and he would do this by keeping in contact with the Councillor at the place where Bongani was residing and he would also keep in touch with the Mayor where Bongani was residing at the end of the day he would prepare a report so this file would then be handed over to Brigadier Mate in Ulundi. On looking at the file if he realises that Bongani Nsomi is doing things that could be a threat to the IFP, he would then take this file further to discuss it with Khumalo and Msemela and everybody who was within the high structure within the hit squad and also a decision would be made to refer that the person is dangerous and therefore should be killed.

Once such a decision was taken an instruction would be issued down to us that Bongani Nsomi is operating as follows and they would want to know if we know him. If we didn't, they would instruct that we locate him and instructions would be that we kill him.

The B.S.I. therefore included Councillors, Mayors, Indunas and Chiefs also church ministers in some areas and school principals at certain areas.

MR WILLS: Mr Mbambo, basically, as I understand you basically what you're saying is that one of the purposes that you were aware of that the B.S.I. - one of the things that it did was to collect information on political opponents of Inkatha and to supply that into the hit squad hierarchy, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you said that certain of the local leadership were also members of the B.S.I. Do you not mean that they would also feed information to the B.S.I. obviously they were not members, uniformed members of the B.S.I.?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You say and here I refer you to paragraph 17 at page 9 of the record that the B.S.I. of the KwaZulu Police as well as the IFP leadership in that specific area would identify the ANC leaders and the names of those identified would be given to M.Z. Khumalo, Brigadier Mate and so on? Who is Brigadier Mate, I think we haven't really had his name mentioned extensively?

MR MBAMBO: Brigadier Mate was once a Deputy Commissioner, that is a position second from the top within the then KwaZulu Police and as time went on he became a Commissioner for a while and then B.S.I. reported to him directly. There were Branch Commanders of the B.S.I. but the person who was the last man within the hierarchy was Brigadier Mate and from that level came the structure of the politicians. He is the one who liaised between the B.S.I. and the IFP leaders in the KwaZulu parliament.

MR WILLS: Okay, just for clarity - possibly you can help us, I think we've mentioned two brigadiers, there's Brigadier Msemela whose been mentioned extensively by Mr Mkhize and Brigadier Mate. Of those two who was the most senior?

MR MBAMBO: It was Brigadier Mate.

MR WILLS: So we've hear that at the time of your operations Brigadier Msemela was the District Commandant I think of the eSikhawini jurisdiction, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct.

MR WILLS: So he was in charge of the five police stations which fell within that jurisdiction is that correct.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And then his next person up the ladder would be Brigadier Mate, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now I want to spend a little bit of time on paragraph 18, I just want you to refer to that in your affidavit, page 9 of the record. Basically here's a list of people who you regard and you say here "this I know from personal experience" and from what you were told by Mkhize and from discussions with the IFP leadership that these people had been members of the hit squad set up. By this are you referring to Mr Mkhize's hit squad or what are you referring to?

MR MBAMBO: I am referring to the eSikhawini hit squad and hit squads which existed in KwaZulu Natal. It should be understood that we were not the only hit squad at eSikhawini. All the police stations or perhaps all the districts in KwaZulu had their own hit squads operating in those areas but we were based at eSikhawini under the eSikhawini region which had five police stations but at Gommokuta there was a hit squad their as well and in other areas they also had their own hit squads because it has transpired here in the testimony that the Caprivians were distributed to all the police stations so that when this conflict erupted between the IFP and ANC, especially strong here in KwaZulu Natal, all these Caprivians in these areas started to be used as was the case in eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Yes can you just for the sake of clarity and for the benefit of those persons who don't have the bundle in front of them, just read those names into the record?

MR MBAMBO: First in my statement is Prince Gideon Zulu who was Minister of Pensions in the then KwaZulu Government followed by M.Z. Khumalo whom we called Isindaba, that was his code name and we also had Dalkolo Luthuli also known as Mdlandula whom we called Nicky. We also had Robert Msemela who was Secretary of the Legislative Assembly. We also had Mrs Umbiasi whom we called Mokabai. We also had Brigadier Mate who was a General at the time of my writing the statement. We also had Captain Hlungwane who was then Major and he was Mpobo, that was his code name. We also had Captain Shlengwa who was working in the IFP office in Durban, he is now retired. We also had Msemela who District Commandant at eSikhawini. We also had Captain Nkunu also in eSikhawini and we had Major Nsama at Inzundumbili, Sipiwhe Umviani who was at Umlazi at the time, Brian Dlamkhize, Lesley Unkulhize who a member of the hit squad under the B.S.I. at Ulundi. Peter Nsami, Joyful who is here at Ensilini, Zwele David Dlamini and another Z.G. Dlamini, Israel Hlungwane and Cele, we used to called him Mr Cele, he originally came from Inglangobo and he was a driver at the Chief Minister's department and we also have M.R. Mkhize who was in charge of the IFP office at Empangeni and Constable P.S. Nglovu we called him Umbusifele, that was his other name. We also had Mandla Umtuno called Swanepoel and we had Matenja also known as Matengo, Lucky Umbiasi, Bernard Mlambo, Sibo Umbiasi, Chief Mmtaba also called Ngambi and Constable Mia who used to work at Unzundumbile and others who are not mentioned here in this statement.

MR WILLS: I see from this that in fact the minority of these names are those that were associated with hit squad in eSikhawini, most of those are from other areas, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now we've indicated, I mean Mr Mkhize has indicated that he after you accepted this honour as you describe it, he gave you certain training with certain weapons and you detail that in paragraphs 19 and 20 and I see that a lot of the weapons that you list are clearly not weapons that you can come across legally in this country or particularly then or even today weapons like the AK47, the Scorpion machine gun, Mokorov and Tokorov pistols, the Stechcom, RGD5's, RPG7's, PE4 explosives. Where did you get these things from?

MR MBAMBO: These weapons came from different places. Some came from the Port Danford camp where Thomas Buthelezi resided, he was a Caprivian and others came from the hit squad base at Umkuzi and some came from Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Where did you train?

MR MBAMBO: I trained at Port Danford and from that place we would take guns, go to the eSikhawini beach at Port Danford and there are no people in that area and that's where I did my training and I would come back to eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Now you're obviously a KwaZulu policeman with normal regular police duties as a Detective Constable at the time when you were doing this training not so?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct.

MR WILLS: How did you do this training at the same time, weren't there questions asked about your whereabouts?

MR MBAMBO: I was a Detective Constable at the eSikhawini Police Station. Dina Mkhize was also a constable and there were officers who were Lieutenants but it appeared as if we were above them in rank. We came to eSikhawini at our own time and left as well as we wished and nobody would question that, nobody would question our movement because the Commanding Officer knew what we were doing and therefore all these Branch Commanders under whom we worked did not have a say in what we were doing.

MR WILLS: So in other words although ostensibly you were a Detective Constable where my understanding of the police is that when you arrive, you have to arrive in the morning and there's a military roll call to check to see if you're there and your day is regimented in the sense that people know where you are all the time. You didn't suffer those same limitations or those same restrictions?

MR MBAMBO: No not at all and ever since I became a police I never took leave but I was not always at the station, there were times where I was required. There was no where I took a sick leave but I was not always at work and for example if a police is always absent from work and sick leave forms are filled such a police would be fired on the basis that he is not doing his job properly, he is deserting because he is not always present. I don't have any sick leave form in my file you can even go and check now and yet I was always at Ulundi at Chief Mataba's place, Chief Umsimela, Chief Umshasi and all of these other places.

MR WILLS: You also received training from Mr Mkhize in respect of house penetration, buddy buddy system, tracking reconnaissance and infiltration and sniping, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I am going on to this next area which starts at page 21 which I do want to deal with in a bit of detail because this applicant was in fact together with Prince Gideon Zulu at this attack so I would like at this stage to adjourn for the weekend.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be a convenient time, I see it's just before one o'clock as well Mr Wills. As mentioned earlier we will not be able to be sitting this afternoon and we therefore are postponing this matter now until next Monday morning, that will be the 20th April 1998, that's next Monday at this hall at 9.30 in the morning. We'll continue then. Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

ON RESUMPTION ON 20TH APRIL 1998 - DAY 7

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee.

Mr Mbambo can you hear me okay? I just want to - before I start - to remind you of the comment made by the Committee Member Mrs Khampepe - the Committee Members are all writing notes so I just want you to relax if it's possible and just talk slowly so that people can clearly hear you and clearly have time to take notes. If at any stage you get tired and you request a break you must make that request.

Mr Mbambo, when we left on Friday lunchtime, you had read into the record a list of names which appears on page 9 and 10 of the record and it's your paragraph number 18. Can you turn to that in your affidavit?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I've located it.

MR WILLS: Now as I recall the evidence of Mr Luthuli was to the effect that these hit squad type operations didn't only exist in one area, for example the area you were involved in as the eSikhawini area but in other areas as well. Now I want you to assist the Committee by going through this list and telling me the members of this - I mean those persons who are mentioned in this list who are not from the eSikhawini area and possibly if you can help the Committee to tell us what area they were operative in and I think that we know for example the hierarchy that you've indicated and that is Prince Gideon Zulu, M.Z. Khumalo, Mr Luthli, Mr Msemela the Secretary were the hierarchy so you don't have to include those people. I'm really interested in the other persons whose names haven't been so frequently bandied about.

MR MBAMBO: Let me start with Captain Shlengwa, he used to work with Captain Kanile at the B.S.I. There were people who were operating under them and these people operated in various areas, places like eSikhawini, Clermont, Mauritzberg and Johannesburg and Ermelo. I mention here Leslie Unkulizi and Peter Nsani who were also Caprivians. They were working together with Z.G. Dlamini, Jerry Ndanda, Cyril Ngema and Ntongo Swanepoel and his name is Mandla Israel Nkunu. They worked in various areas. I cannot remember their operations in some of these areas but the one that I remember is the one at eSikhawini, the 1991 incident, where Mr Gideon Mjeje died and together with Mr Vilani.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbambo, you mentioned Mr Mjeje and who else I didn't get the other name.

MR MBAMBO: Mr Vilani.

MR WILLS: Just for clarity Mr Mbambo, this person you cite as Peter Nsani is he the same Peter Nsani that was the first accused in that what was called the Magnus Malan trial in Durban?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you want to continue or are you finished with answering that question?

MR MBAMBO: There were others who were also working under him, I have forgotten their names. He was working under Major Nsama and Lieutenant Ntunu who ended up working at eSikhawini as a Major Ntunu.

MR WILLS: And you indicate here in the affidavit - sorry you mention Major Nsama, is this the Major Nsama who was from Zundumbili Police Station in fact for a long time during this period he was the Station Commander of Zundumbili Police Station, that's Major Owen Zama.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct he is the one.

MR WILLS: Do you know where this person is stationed now?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know where he is stationed at the moment but I know that he is a member of a police union called NOPOSO.

MR WILLS: Just to carry on with analysing this list a little bit. It strikes me that a fair percentage of the persons that you've listed here had at that time capacities within the KwaZulu Police, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me that there was a close relationship between the people who were involved in these operations and the KwaZulu Police, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct because if you look clearly here many of them were members of the police force in KwaZulu for example Z.G. Dlamini was a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe

but he defected to join the KwaZulu Police and others who were trained at Caprivi are now members of the KwaZulu Police.

MR WILLS: I want you to turn now to paragraph 21 of your affidavit, page 11 of the record and just describe what - I want you to describe this incident because my investigations when I was preparing to perform this work at this Committee showed me that this incident which took place in February 1992 in eSikhawini was a very significant incident for the community of eSikhawini. Could you describe the significance of that to the Members of the Committee?

MR MBAMBO: The rally that was held at eSikhawini in 1992 was the rally bigger than any other rally that was ever held there. It was attended by several top leaderships led by Prince Gideon Zulu. I can also say that the ANC also had information that the rally was going to be big and the intention of the rally was to drive out all ANC members from eSikhawini. There are four hostels that were targeted for attack. On the eve of the rally in the evening the ANC also mobilised it's own people and they put barricades at the entry points of the township and special reference to Songobilo Hostel, Railway Hostel, J1 Hostel - they had stationed people there who were guarding and they were using walkie talkies. I remember I was with Constance Mangele patrolling at night and on arrival at J1 we were not allowed to gain access or entry into the area. We were stopped by the ANC marshals with a Mr Dhaliwe who is now deceased and they were using walkie talkies and on asking them why they were doing that and they said they had information to the effect that they were going to be attacked and they did not have confidence in the KwaZulu Police and they decided to organise themselves so that they could communicate to ward of this attack.

We therefore could not search and the following day in the morning buses that were transporting IFP members started driving in. They drove in through the H2 enter point near Malangala and they would drive up Makaboso Street and on arriving at Makaboso the buses stopped there and people alighted and they were to start marching from that point to where the rally was to be held at J2. That is a long distance from that point to J2. I still remember there were several ANC leaders who were trying to speak to KwaZulu officers that what is done by the IFP followers is wrong because it will start a friction. Why is it that they drop people off so far away from the stadium because the distance that they would walk to the venue was a distance that included the ANC areas from H2 to Emakandaleni to Main Road dividing H1 and J2 section and the ANC members were not listening, they were not taking into consideration. The march started there because the aim was to attack from H2 up to Songobilo Hostel and from Songobilo Hostel proceed to J1 attack until up to Shlangalane Hall. By that time they should have completed the whole eSikhawini and the march proceeded up to the road separating H1 and J2 and this march was led by Amabuto. Amabuto leaders, should I say, yes leaders who would under normal circumstances be clad in their Zulu attire and they were also carrying these traditional weapons and on arrival at Songobilo Hostel the march being led by Prince Gideon Zulu there was an exchange of gunshots from Songobilo Hostel and during that shootout one person got injured.

At the time I was very close to Mr Gideon Zulu another leader from Emabaweni, he was also an IFP leader and on being shot at there I still remember that Gideon Zulu had 303 rifle, he wanted to stand up and shoot back. I stopped him and pressed him on the ground and some of these Amabuto stopped the followers and indicated to them that they should not proceed. One woman who came from Ntsele who had intelesi, some traditional herb came out from the march and went to the Sonobilo Hostel and she sprinkled this African medicine around and she came back to join the march and before we actually left, the police, the Internal Stability Unit police of the SAP together with the KwaZulu Reaction Unit, they fired teargas canisters to us at Sonobilo Hostel and as the place was smoky, the march proceeded to the stadium. The hostel continued shooting but no one else got injured after this medicine was sprinkled and until we arrived at the J2 stadium and at the time when Prince Gideon Zulu was addressing the IFP followers at the stadium - I'd like to explain this - J2 is next to J1, the J2 area belongs to the IFP and the ANC is in charge of J1. The stadium is at the end of J2 - that simply means just from that point you are nearer to J1.

There were people who were standing on rooftops at J1. One of them was wearing a pinafore carrying an AK47. He started shooting towards the stadium where the IFP followers were gathering. That's where one woman died. People were angered at the stadium and when police started attempting to calm them down, Prince Gideon Zulu instructed that they should also attack.

People left the stadium and they moved towards J1. I no longer accompanied Prince Gideon Zulu at the time. I left in the company of Lieutenant Njale of the B.S.I. and Lieutenant Njale who was Station Commander at Inzani together with Brigadier Msemela and one Captain whose surname I have forgotten - Captain Skekane and we drove to J1 across and when we arrived at the place where the gunshots were being fired from we found IFP members together with Amabuto shooting at the house and trying to burn it as well.

There was a girl who was sleeping in the house, they got inside and killed her. They opened the garage - there was a car parked in the garage and they took it out and they also burned the car. They took everything what was inside - T.V. sets, televisions, radios etc and they looted these things.

The whole J1 was under attack so that all the KwaZulu together with the SAP police did not even attempt to stop them. I still remember Brigadier Msemela on arrival at the house that I've just spoken about he said these people should hurry up and get out of the place. The whole of J1 was attacked and many people died until they got to Shlangalane Hall where dinner was to be served. Dinner was not partaken of because Prince Gideon Zulu was so angry, he was angry with myself and Dina and Malanduna and other who were present and he accused us of not having done our job because the ANC is still very strong in the area. He started reprimanding the local level leaders to the same effect and he referred to Insileni where there is not even a single ANC member because there is a flag ahoist in the area to the presence of the IFP and he wanted to the same flag to be hoisted in eSikhawini. He said there was to be a second march and he referred to it as a march to clean the pots and he wanted a situation that there would be no single ANC member in the area during the time of the march. That was the situation and position until we parted ways in the evening.

MR WILLS: Yes, just a few point of clarity Mr Mbambo, this person you said that you met on the evening before when you wanted to search the hostels, this Teliwe, this is the person who we've now learned his name is April Teliwe in whose murder you participated in some time later is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You've also indicated that the police, sorry that the crowd after leaving the hostel attacked J1 section and a number of houses were burned. Do you recall if that is the day that the house of a significant ANC leader in the area, Mr Willis Mkunu, the day that his house was burned?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct, I also do remember that, Dina Mkhize was also present but he was not present as a member of a hit squad but as a member of the police wearing his camouflage. He also tried to stop the people from burning the house but he failed.

MR WILLS: Just as on a point of interest - as regards that attack did the IFP suffer a set back in eSikhawini as a result of that attack?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct because Prince Gideon Zulu was not able to address a rally. Secondly they had clearly indicated that the ANC was still very strong at eSikhawini such that the IFP were forced to give yet another instruction to the effect that we should change the strategy that we were using of assassinating one ANC leader after another. We should just hit the mobs, attack all of these areas known to be ANC areas and the IFP leaders at eSikhawini and surroundings were now shamed that they were not doing their job properly.

MR WILLS: I've heard comments in discussions about this particular attack and from the ANC side they claim that on that particular day, that is on that rally on the 16th February 1992, they regarded it as the day in eSikhawini when the ANC defeated the IFP. Would you regard that as an accurate assessment?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that would be correct.

MR WILLS: Shortly after that meeting, I know in your affidavit - sorry that rally - in your affidavit you can't be specific about the dates but a meeting was called at Shlangalane Hall where certain people were present and Mr Mkhize has referred to this meeting so I don't think it's necessary to dwell on it but in your affidavit you indicate that there was Chief Mataba, Mrs Umbiasi, Mayor B.B. Biela, Mr G.L. Mkhize whom you've indicated is deceased, Mr Brian Mkhize, Victor Buthelezi and yourself and you think that, but not sure, that Mr Zwele Dlamini was also present and Mkhize has indicated that at that stage the attack on the IFP rally was discussed and also people were targeted at that meeting, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you confirm what Mkhize has said in regard to the fact that there were certain KwaZulu Policemen and namely E.N. Nsinga, Captain Manzini and Sergeant Dlamini, Captain Masinga who were put on a list of persons to be assassinated?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you also confirm what Mr Mkhize says that this was because of various beliefs that they in some way were supporting the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: There has been a lot of evidence so you must listen carefully to my question and correct me if I'm not leading you correctly but my recollection of Mr Mkhize's evidence was in relation to Masinga, the reason why Masinga was going to be targeted in this way was simply - or the main reason was that he was busy doing a job and arresting perpetrators of violence, some of those being IFP supporters?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now my inference from that would be that if a person was to arrest IFP persons who were perpetrating in this violence he would run into serious problems?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. That is correct, he would also be killed as well.

MR WILLS: So essentially, the KwaZulu Police could not protect the community broadly?

MR MBAMBO: No because the IFP followers as a whole knew that the KwaZulu Police were their police such that they refer to them as uncles. Even elder members within the IFP - a person of the age of seventy example, myself being twenty two for example, if a person didn't know that I was a KwaZulu Police he would call me an uncle.

MR WILLS: You mentioned some of the names that Mr Mkhize mentioned in paragraph 25 of your affidavit and paragraph 26 and you've included I think in the main all of the ones that Mr Mkhize has mentioned, there might be one or two more. I'm wanting to concentrate on paragraph 27 of your affidavit. You say, and I quote: "The police officials mentioned above were to be eliminated by a hit squad because it was thought by the IFP leadership" and this is the part that interests me at this moment in time, you refer to a Mr Mzuza, a Mrs Joyce Matenjwa

and a Mrs Matshale in that - to carry on - now those persons haven't really been mentioned. Can you explain who they were?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Mzuzu was a councillor and an IFP member residing at J1. His house had been attacked several times. Mrs Joyce Matenjwa was an IFP leader at eSikhawini and had a house at J2. She is the mother of Mandwengo, the Mandwengo known to kill ANC members. Mrs Umbiasi was also a councillor and a Chairperson of the IFP at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: No, Mr Mbambo, we know the other names, I'm just interested in the names that haven't come up. Who was Mrs Matjali?

MR MBAMBO: Mrs Matjali was also an IFP councillor at H1 near the police station. She was one of the reasons why Begintuli was eventually attacked because there was a belief that her house had been attacked at H1 - it was because of Begintuli.

MR WILLS: Okay so if for the benefit of the councillors - the Committee Members to be briefed - all of the persons who you mention in paragraph 27 would therefore form part of the IFP local leadership at eSikhawini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so except for Chief Mataba whom I haven't mentioned in this paragraph.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now you confirm I think as Mkhize - well can you confirm what Mkhize says and I think you confirm it in your affidavit at 29, where later on another meeting was held at Ulundi and basically the contents of the meeting that you'd held at Shlangalane Hall with the local leadership was confirmed with the senior hit squad hierarchy at Ulundi and that included Hlungwane - Captain Hlungwane, M.Z. Khumalo, Mandla Induna whom we know is Mr Luthuli - those people, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And at that meeting people that were sanctioned by the local leadership list were in fact - the go ahead was given to assassinate these people with the exception I think of Detective Sergeant Khumalo at this stage.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And the decision a regards Khumalo was to investigate further is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now in paragraph 30 you touch on an area that has also been raised by Mr Luthuli in his evidence and in fact Mr Mkhize and that is the training of other IFP members. Now Mr Luthuli's evidence to be brief was that effectively those persons who were trained would go into their communities and they would train the IFP youth in order that they would also be utilised in a military sense to participate in what has been referred to as this war against the ANC, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it correct that you participated in this training after you yourself were trained?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And to that extent you list persons that you trained in paragraph 31 and that is people from Port Danford, people from Kwadlangezwa and people from Insingwene, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now was it expected that these people who you trained would stay at the place where you trained them, I think you mentioned that you trained them in the Port Danford area? Sorry, where did you train them?

MR MBAMBO: I trained them at Port Danford and sometimes I would also train them at my house. I would also take them to the shooting range at Richards Bay and thereafter they would return to their areas, their own areas.

MR WILLS: Yes that basically confirms what Mr Luthuli said that the plan was that these people would be trained and returned to their areas in order to operate in their areas, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And to the best of your knowledge and I'm going to read the names of these people, you say the people from Port Danford were Mabuso Gwala, Mkhize who you say is now deceased, Kolani Nkosei, Lungane Induduzi - you've referred to also as Ndukatzi and Latzi. Did those people return to the Port Danford area?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And do you know if they conducted any operations in that area?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I know - they went with Mkhize the one who is now late.

MR WILLS: Yes, now the people from Kwadlangezwa - Herbert Sitole and Adeli Cele, Gift and you said the Khumalo boys - did they return to their are?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And do you know if they were operative in any way?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they did so.

MR WILLS: Now this Andeli Cele - is he the same person who accompanied you on the night of the kidnapping of Mr Nati Gumede?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now the people from Insingwene were Siphiso Gwenze, Siphiso Khumalo and a person you've named as Bongani?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Did those people return to their are?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you know if they conducted operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they did.

MR WILLS: Now you've indicated in your affidavit that these are the names that you can remember but there were in fact more people than this, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes these are just a few that I can remember.

MR WILLS: Now I want to return to paragraph 30 of your affidavit. You say that these men were sent to you and I'm near the bottom of page 15, Members of the Committee. These men were sent to you by Mr Super Buthelezi. Can you describe who he is?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Super Buthelezi is the IFP leader from Ingwene, he's also a business man, he owns a number of shops in the Insingwene area. He was a member of parliament in the KwaZulu government. He was very close to Chief Nzoza from Insingwene.

MR WILLS: You also mention that the people from Langlezwa were sent to you by Chief Makwanasi?

MR MBAMBO: Yes - Chief Makwanasi from Langlezwa.

MR WILLS: Was he the chief of that area?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he was the chief in that area.

MR WILLS: And you were obviously also instrumental as was Mkhize in the training of the boys from eSikhawini and those we refer to as Lucky Umbiasi, Bernard Mlambo and Inkanele Pamatenja?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Right I want to now concentrate on paragraph 32 the bottom of page 16. You entitle this section "Appointed as a Detective to cover up operations" Are you with me?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you describe how that came about?

MR MBAMBO: As I explained before that they were police who were on the hit list, we mentioned Captain Manzini, Captain Masinga, Sergeant Dlamini and Sergeant Khumalo.

I will concentrate on Captain Masinga and Captain Manzini. Captain Masinga was head of the reaction unit and Captain Manzini was D.C.I.O. which means he was in charge of all detectives in eSikhawini, in Zundubile and Dambanane and Simsani and from Bongolani. Therefore every detective was under Captain Manzini. Because the IFP believed in that all KwaZulu Police were their uncle, they could kill ANC members in broad daylight without any fear and the reaction unit under Captain Masinga would arrest them and their cases would be investigated by detectives under Captain Manzini. In that way there was dissatisfaction amongst IFP members that IFP youth is arrested when they fight the ANC. They went to complain to Brigadier Msemela. Mrs Umbiasi and B.B. Biela the Mayor were the people who went and they had a discussion with Brigadier Msemela. From there Mrs Umbiasi requested to see me at her house in the evening. I went there - at the time I was in the prevention of crime unit, I wore a uniform on duty.

Mrs Umbiasi explained that in the meeting Brigadier Mia had made a suggestion to the effect that the reaction unit and the detectives unit should infiltrate, that is hit squad members should be able to infiltrate these units so that IFP members would not be arrested or they would bar the arrest of IFP members. Fortunately, Dina Mkhize was already in the reaction unit but we didn't have a hit squad member within the Detective Unit. It was then suggested that I make an application, take it to the Station Commander and indicate that I want to join the Detective Unit. I would then work in this unit and I would then look or prevent all other investigations that related to cases against IFP members.

I made the application. My branch commander, Warrant Officer Khumalo refused me or declined that I join the Detective Unit. I reported this to Brigadier Msemela and he said I should make another application and take it to him directly. I did so and I took it to Brigadier Msemela himself and he approved it. Then I joined the Detective Unit.

The way in which we were supposed to work was that Maklagami Pumatenja, Bernard Mlambo, Sebe Umbiasi, Lucky Umbiasi and other people who worked under them...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry I just wanted to mention - these persons you mentioned are the persons that Mkhize mentioned who attacked Vicky Intuli's house?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Okay you can continue.

MR MBAMBO: It was then decided that they would have to attack ANC members when Dina's unit, that is the reaction unit, was on duty. I would be on standby. That meant that all cases that would be reported at the police station will come directly to me. I would be the first one to investigate those cases. That is a very important stage in all cases because if the investigation doesn't go right from the beginning, that means the entire case has been messed up.

Therefore, Mandwengo and them would attack. After that their relatives or the families of the victims would report to the police station and the reaction unit, as was their duty, would go to the scene. Dina would be amongst them and I will also go there as a detective to take statements and to collect any other evidence at the crime scene. On arrival, Dina will destroy evidence there and I would also do the same. After taking the statements from the witness or from the complainant and from other witnesses. If a person for example said "I had seen Mandwengo" I would write in my report that the suspect was unknown and I will construct the docket in such a manner that when I took it to another detective, the detective will not be able to proceed with the case because there wouldn't be enough information.

MR WILLS: Yes, now obviously - I think it's common knowledge at least amongst the community of eSikhawini that's here today that these guys you mention - Matenja, Umbiasi and Mlambo were very active during this period, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Very much so.

MR WILLS: Now did they pay you in any way or did they influence you in any way to do this, to cover up for them?

MR MBAMBO: No, these was per instruction from the leadership on how we were supposed to work to protect the IFP because if Mandwengo had been arrested, that would have brought harm to the IFP. If they could expose our operation that would harm the entire leadership of eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Just to be thorough, you indicate in your affidavit at page 33 that you had made two previous application to join the detective section of the police but these had both been unsuccessful?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you have to do a special course to be a detective?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Did you do this special course?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I did at Matikulu.

MR WILLS: Was this after your application?

MR MBAMBO: Yes after I applied and the application had been approved.

MR WILLS: You confirm the contents of paragraph 34, I think you already have in your evidence that the KwaZulu Police authorities knew about your operations and "as a result I was never questioned as to my whereabouts"?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Okay I want to concentrate on the firearms. It seems to me that from the evidence in any event that you had a central role in storing the firearms. For a long time the trunk that contained the firearms for example and the firearms obviously I'm referring to the firearms that your hit squad used. The trunk was stored at your house.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Why was this trunk stored at your house?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly the trunk did not originally stay with me, it was staying at a certain house that we called Snake Park because the IFP youth would open this trunk and remove weapons and use them in an inappropriate manner. Mrs Umbiasi said we should remove the trunk and take it to my house because where I stayed I was not alone I stayed with other policemen and my house was very near to Mrs Umbiasi's.

Firstly I would prevent these boys from removing weapons, secondly policemen wouldn't come and search for weapons from my house because I was also a policeman. But those were the two reasons that I can mention here.

MR WILLS: Yes but in fact on one occasion, I don't know if it's included in your affidavit, I can't remember but I remember that the evidence that you gave at the Supreme Court before Judge van der Reyden that on one occasion even the South African Police searched your house, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: Can you just briefly explain what happened as result of that search to the public and the Members of the Committee?

MR MBAMBO: It was on a Sunday morning, I was alone in the house. The Internal Stability Unit from the SAP arrived at my house. They kicked the door open, got inside the house and pointed with guns at me and then they started searching the other rooms. When I asked them what they wanted they said they were looking or searching for weapons and that they had information that I had AK47's in my house. Because I was alone in the house and because I had been attacked several times in the house I had two AK47's under my bed and the rest were in the trunk locked away. They found these two guns under the bed. After this the white sergeant came in and he turned on the light because they had not turned on the light before but they had their torches on. On turning on the light he was shocked and he asked if I was not a KwaZulu policeman and I said yes and he said "are you stationed at eSikhawini?" and I said that is so and he requested the other policemen to leave the house, he wanted to speak to me alone. They left and he said to me "how do you work, how do you operate at the eSikhawini Police Station?" and I said I didn't understand what he was saying and he replied that they had received information from Crime Stop that my house J2 4091, that certain MK members resided at this house and they were armed, that he was there having been accompanied by a KwaZulu police member who had identified the house and who had initially phoned Crime Stop and given them that information.

I asked who that policeman was and he said we should go outside because this policeman was outside. Because I did not quite trust him, I took my gun and went out with him. On arriving outside I saw two Inyalas outside and behind these two Inyalas were two vans, one of them AZP777 from eSikhawini, it was stationery. On nearing the van I saw that the driver was Sergeant Dlamini who was in the hit list that had been supplied by the IFP leadership. There was also a boy called Mbuso in the passenger seat who resided at H2 but his home was at Langezwa. This boy was not a policeman but he was an ANC member. He was dressed in camouflage uniform from the KwaZulu Police. I was shocked to see this. There was also Constable Kadela from the eSikhawini Police Station.

When I approached the car I said "these people are drunk" and this white Sergeant said Dlamini should get out of the car because he wanted to test his liquor level. Dlamini pretended to be getting out but he did not he just pressed on the car and sped off. We went across the road trying to block his way and he just came straight for us and we just had to get off the road.

This white policeman then apologised and said because they had broken the door they would arrive at eSikhawini Police Station and go to Brigadier Msemela and they would make a full statement on the incident so that the state could refund me so that I could fix my door.

I went to Mrs Umbiasi's house and reported the matter to her.

MR WILLS: Yes obviously you weren't arrested at that stage?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I wasn't arrested.

MR WILLS: And you weren't arrested despite the fact that weapons such as four AK47 rifles, a stainless steel shotgun, a shotgun with a modified handle, a number of F1 and RGD5 hand grenades, a number of home made explosives, a number of rounds of ammunition and detonators were found in your possession?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Why weren't you arrested?

MR MBAMBO: This white sergeant said that he did not see anything wrong if police protect themselves with AK47's because the ANC was busy killing policemen with the same AK47's. That was what he told the other policemen and they also accepted this and they also apologised that they had gotten wrong information, they didn't know that I was also a policeman.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now you indicate on paragraphs 36 and 37 where you got these weapons from. I think Mkhize has told us what came from Thomas Buthelezi at Port Danford. Then you indicate in this affidavit that you were present when a AK47 was handed to Mrs Umbiasi which that same AK later came into your possession. Can you just explain the circumstances around that?

MR MBAMBO: I had been called by Mr M.R. Mkhize who worked in the IFP office in Empangeni. Some weapons were supposed to be delivered there. These guns would be distributed to various areas to protect IFP members because IFP members had been complaining that they were being attacked by Bonga Insomi but they couldn't defend themselves. Bongani Insomi was an ANC member. I arrived at the office. After a short while Mr arrived and he informed us that there was a box that we were supposed to pick up from his car - he was with his bodyguard and a driver.

We fetched the box from the car and we brought it to the office. We opened it - there were 20 AK47s in the box. We separated these according to the regions that they were supposed to go to and then he took one from these and he said this was going to go to Mokabai.

MR MBAMBO: Mrs Umbiasi?

MR WILLS: Yes Mrs Umbiasi. After that we remained at the office and discussed other political issues and then he left going to eSikhawini taking this AK47 that he had said was to be given to Mokabai and in the office I did not accompany him until in the evening when I went to my place I received a message that Mrs Umbiasi wanted to see me. I went to her place where she said to me take this rifle, keep it with the rest and she indicated that Nyambosi, that is Mr Mtetwa is the one who brought the rifle to her.

MR WILLS: Yes this person was at one stage the KwaZulu Natal Minister of Safety and Security, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct, he is also a pastor.

MR WILLS: You say in your paragraph 37 that you overheard a conversation between M.R. Mkhize and C.J. Mtetwa as regards where they got the firearms from. Do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. He said these rifles came from Mozambique, they got it from the border that separates South Africa and Mozambique near Umgwavma.

MR WILLS: You also indicate in paragraph 36 that Mayor B.B. Biela handed you certain explosives, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he was in the company of Victor Buthelezi. He gave me explosives that was made of heavy metal and they seemed to have PE4, which is a plastic explosive, you ignite it and put it where it's supposed to explode and once the wax has been ignited, it then explodes. He gave me that together with bullets.

MR WILLS: Yes, I wanted to get onto that, obviously your operations must have involved you going through a fair amount of ammunition. Where did you get the ammunition from? Try and be as accurate as possible in your recollections.

MR MBAMBO: Bullets came from various places, some came from Ulundi brought by Dina Mkhize and some were brought by the Mayor B.B. Biele and we used to get some from Joyful Mtetwa at Ensileni and Chief Inzunza also gave us some of these bullets but most of them came from Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Did you ever travel to Ulundi to pick up bullets?

MR MBAMBO: No Dina used to do that.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I am going to go onto specific incidents, I see that it's ten minutes before tea time, I am in a position to start if the Committee would like me to but this is a convenient time to take the tea break depending on the..[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it doesn't make much of a difference Mr Wills if we take the tea break now we'll just start ten minutes earlier, so if we can take the tea break at this stage seeing it is a convenient point and we'll reconvene then at twenty past eleven. We'll just adjourn now for tea.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills are you ready to continue? Sorry, Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to inform Members of the Committee that due to certain commitments I've got to attend to. Mr Nati Ladla will be the evidence leader in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I would just like to disclose here discussions that I've had with evidence leader Mr Mpshe concerning certain incidents. You will have seen from the affidavits that certain of the incidents involved people from outside the eSikhawini area for example in Ermelo and Durban. Those people have not been notified and obviously cannot be expected to be here so I'm purposely going to skip those incidents and the agreement with the evidence leader is that the effected parties will be called at a later date of this hearing and where those matters will be dealt with.

MR MPSHE: I confirm that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Mr Mbambo we're going to start now discussing the various incidents that you were personally involved in and first of all we're going to concentrate on the murder of Mr April Telewe. We have recorded in the affidavit as Mr Tilly Makwanasi but I think that we've established beyond doubt now that this person's name was in fact April Telewe and so I'm going to refer to this person as April Telewe from now on.

Mr Mbambo, we've heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize in respect of most of the incidents that you were involved in together with him and that Mr Mkhize gave evidence as regards the setting up and the orders and such like. I don't want you to go into detail other than confirming what Mr Mkhize has said and I'll ask you that question. I want you to, in all of these incidents, just concentrate as briefly as possible on the role that you played in these particular incidents. Is that clear?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Okay, we're going to start with the murder of April Telewe. Now you've heard Mr Mkhize's evidence. Do you confirm that as being true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You confirm that the persons involved in that incident were yourself, Mr Zwele Dlamini and Mr Mkhize when the actual incident occurred, when Mr Telewe was shot?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. There were three of us.

MR WILLS: And that although Israel and Mrs Umbiasi knew about this incident, Israel was left behind because you had initially just gone out for reconnaissance, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you describe your involvement in this matter?

MR MBAMBO: I was picked up by Dina Mkhize at my place, it was in the evening and he was driving a white Ford Meteor belonging to B.B. Biela who was the then Mayor at eSikhawini and he was accompanied by Zwele Dlamini and he told me that there was a sudden task that we had to carry out and I asked him whose job the task was and he said it was Daliwe Makanosi involved.

I got into the car and we went to Mrs Umbiasi's place. She was at home together with Israel Hlungwane and we discussed Daliwe briefly after which myself Dina and Zwele Dlamini got into the car and we went to J1 to look for him. We saw his green car, it was parked next to house and there were some people talking to him but the cars engine was running, ready for leaving. We drove past him and we confirmed that he is the one driving and we stopped at a T-Junction in J1 and after a short while his car drove past us and we followed him. He joined the Main Road to eSikhawini just next to J1.

I was driving the car at the time, Dina was occupying the passenger seat and Zwele Dlamini back seat. We followed him and we concluded that he was going to take a right turn at the cross, proceed to Sonobilo Hostel. We overtook his vehicle and took a right turn and we went to wait for him at the Sonobilo Hostel gate because we knew that they used to lock the gate. He would delay there and we would get an opportunity to shoot him there and after the turn as we were proceeding, he indicated to turn towards the left and that's what he did. He took the road to Bongoye and I quickly made a U-turn and followed him and approaching the Moholoholo Hill near the bush Dina suggested that we shoot him then and there. Dina had a G3 rifle - I drove and pretended to be overtaking his vehicle and as Dina's window was directly facing his window I brought my vehicle closer to his. Dina tried to shoot but the gun jammed.

At that point Daliwe was not aware what was happening because it was dark. Dina tried to fix the gun and he made his second attempt and still the gun jammed. At that point Daliwe was beginning to suspect that something was happening so Zwele from behind indicated that he is ready, I should bring him closer, direct opposite to him. I drove a little faster so that Zwele's window could be directly opposite to that of his, then Zwele fired a shot using a 7.65 mm pistol and after that we saw the car moving off the road and I drove faster and Dina tested his gun to see why it was jammed and this time it was ready, it was now shooting.

We fled and took the Port Danford Road and we went back to eSikhawini and we went to the police station to confirm that he is indeed shot and indeed a report had already been received that he had been shot and he is dead and we then moved on to Mrs Umbiasi's place where we reported that we fared well and we explained how everything happened.

MR WILLS: Who did you report to?

MR MBAMBO: We reported to Mrs Umbiasi that very same evening. It was then Dina's duty to phone Captain Hlungwane and I went back to my place to sleep.

MR WILLS: I see in, taking you back very briefly, to paragraph, the first paragraph in this instance, the last line of that paragraph you say

"I dressed in dark clothing, armed myself with my 9 mm. service pistol, took my balaclava and accompanied Mkhize and Dlamini."

Is this the sort of dress you'd wear continually on these operations and I specifically

refer to the item of clothing the balaclava.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. I was apparently the only person who was using a balaclava among the group with whom we were working because I had a light skin problem, I could be easily spotted or identified.

MR WILLS: Yes but even though you had a balaclava you were still recognised, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they suspected looking at the structure of the body. I would hear the ANC youth for example if they had rallies on working as a policeman during the day, they would refer to me as Skorro Mbambo and they would say I did not use vehicles during the day but during the night, but I would do something else during the day. They would say I am not spotted walking on foot during the day but at night I am seen in places where I am not always spotted out during the day and that gave me an impression that they were suspecting that I was the person.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you. You say in paragraph 46 that the pistol that was used for this murder was Mrs Umbiasi's is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And again just to confirm that you haven't been prosecuted or arrested or charged in any way for this incident?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I was not arrested and I was not investigated for this case.

MR WILLS: Do you know if there's a docket opened and the extent of the investigation into this matter?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I know that it is a docket that was at eSikhawini but I don't know what transpired of the investigation.

MR WILLS: I want to now turn to the next incident which starts on page 22 of the record and your paragraph 48, that is the murder of Naftel Khumalo. Now again you've heard Mr Mkhize giving evidence is there anything that you don't agree with if you can remember what he said?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR WILLS: You confirm what he said in relation to this incident?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Again can you explain your participation in this murder?

MR MBAMBO: I was at a course for the detective in Matikulu and Dina Mkhize came to pick me up and he indicated that there was a task we had to carry out at eSikhawini and that afternoon as well he was driving B.B. Biela's vehicle, we then came back to eSikhawini. On arrival he then explained to me that Naftel Khumalo is the person to be killed. I did not know Naftel Khumalo at all. We met because some of our members were already waiting. We then went to pick Zwele Dlamini up, Israel Hlungwane, Lucky Umbanjwa and Victor Buthelizi and when we went to Naftel Khumalo's place or house, on passing his place we saw him come out of the house with people as if he was walking them to the gate or something.

We parked our car just a little ahead of his home and we took out our guns, we had rifles, all of us, a different assortment of rifles and when we got closer to his home we realised that among the people he was walking to the gate, there was a police from the eSikhawini Police Station...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry could we just have some quiet please.

MR MBAMBO: This police was Sergeant Myeni. He also resided just around Naftel's place and he walked them until they finally left and he came back. Victor Buthelezi is the one who knew him and he had already identified him.

We shot him all at once, all of us and he fell. We shot him such that we did not doubt that he died and we then fled in different directions. Victor Buthelezi and Lucky Mabanjwa, they did not come back to us in the car they went straight to B.B. Biela's house on foot. Myself, Dina and Israel together with Zwele got into the car and we drove away and on passing Sergeant Khumalo's house we realised that we were being followed by a van.

Firstly, we were not sure as to whether the van was indeed following us. Dina was the one driving at the time, he tried to take different turns, trying to make out as to whether the car would keep following us. The van kept following us until we joined the road to Empangeni and we started fleeing really and he would also turn off the headlights and we would argue in the car, some would say he should stop, especially Zwele suggested that Dina should stop and just shoot at the police and we differed on this - some felt we cannot shoot the police and we ended up not shooting them but we fled until we took the Endabayake Road. On arrival near Imubeni we stopped the car and Zwele took the AK47's the ones that were illegal and the ones that we kept behind were the ones that were legal and they stayed at the sugar cane field so that when the police came they should only discover the legal firearms in our possession and we proceeded to a shop that was near the road. We bought some drinks, me and Dina and we stood at the verandah and as we were standing there we saw this van driving past the shop. We got back into the car and drove back. This time we drove back to the direction where we had dropped Zwele and we could not find them there any more and we went back to eSikhawini where Dina left me at my place and we proceeded to the police station to verify the death of our target and he did report that he was indeed dead and he then drove me back to Emmadikula to a course.

MR WILLS: Yes, now you refer in paragraph 54 to a joke, some form of joke between Biela and Shlangwane and Mkhize sometime after that, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. Israel resided with the Mayor B.B. Biele. He used to go there during the day and have dinner there at night and discuss the political situation between the IFP and the ANC and on that evening, we learnt that Israel and Zwele, they walked from Dawayake on foot until they arrived to Ingwelizani. At R.M. Mkhizes, who was in charge of the IFP office, they started reprimanding us for having left them behind so that they walked this distance and we laughed about it.

MR WILLS: Okay, you also say in that paragraph that you were told that Mr Khumalo was a candidate to becoming the Mayor of eSikhawini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And who told you that?

MR MBAMBO: It was that very same evening that we were sitting together. The Mayor spoke at length about Naftel Khumalo explaining what skills he had on mobilisation and addressing people and that he is actually the one who was a threat to his position. That is the mayor's position.

MR WILLS: Now again, Mkhize has indicated this but can you tell me, we've gone through here two incidents where you've used Mayor B.B. Biele's car, did he know what you were using his car for?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he knew what we were using the car for. I would explain this as follows - the Mayor had two cars, he had a Nissan Skyline, bluish or green in colour and the white Ford Meteor. This must have been given to him by the government for his Mayoral position but this white vehicle was often used by his wife to and from work and he would then use the Skyline but when there were now rumours circulating at eSikhawini that this Mayor is seen on hit squad scenes he realised that it is no longer safe for his wife to use the car and then he gave his wife the Skyline and he started to use this very same car and he now had Victor Buthelezi as his bodyguard. He did that because he had now known that there were suspicions - reference to his vehicle - because he is the one who had given us the car to use it, using it for the very same purpose of killing people.

MR WILLS: Okay, I want to turn now to the attempted murder of the ANC member Welcome Mthimkhulu, page 25 of the record, paragraph 56. Again Mr Mkhize has given extensive evidence in regard to this evidence. Do you confirm what Mr Mkhize said?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You indicate here as did Mr Mkhize that certain people were involved, but sorry, prior to that you say in paragraph 57 that there was a meeting at the IFP regional offices in Empangeni. What was discussed at this meeting? We discussed Welcome Mthimkhulu's duties and his job that he was doing for the ANC. He was already in the hit list about which I spoke earlier on and we decided that we should kill him that very same evening. We had M.R. Mkhize in the meeting, Joyful Mtetwa, Dina Mkhize, Zwele Dlamini and Israel Hlungwane. Zwele and Israel were working at the IFP office already.

MR WILLS: Okay, this R.M. Mkhize, who is he?

MR MBAMBO: He is Robert Mkhize who was in charge of the office, he resided at Ingwelizani at the time.

MR WILLS: In charge of the IFP office?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you know what he's doing today?

MR MBAMBO: It transpires that he was fired for misappropriating office funds. I don't know where he is at the moment.

MR WILLS: But obviously this individual knew exactly what was going to happen later that evening?

MR MBAMBO: Yes we planned everything with him.

MR WILLS: Okay, I see in paragraph 58 that again you availed upon the Mayor for the usage of his car and you used the white Meteor and then certain people accompanied you to Mr Mthimkhulu's house is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Who were the people who were involved in this operation?

MR MBAMBO: It was myself, Dina Mkhize, Zwele Dlamini, Joyful Mtetwa, Victor Buthelezi and Constable P.S. Ndlovu whom I referred to as Umbusayfeli.

MR WILLS: Okay we know from Mr Mkhize's evidence that if you lay in ambush and you fired at the car when you eventually saw it and Mr Mthimkhulu it turned out was not in the car and in fact certain other people were in the car and as a result a certain female was injured, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you yourself fire that night?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now later on that night you went to attack persons at Motokozweni bus stop, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that's on page 27 of the record and paragraph 60 of your affidavit. Why did you go and attack this bus stop?

MR MBAMBO: Intokozweni is a place in H2, a place called Emmakandaleni. It is the ANC stronghold. That is where people board the bus to Richards Bay where they are working in factories such as RPM and Alusaf, Mondi and several other factories here. It is therefore known that people who board those buses in that area are members of COSATU which is affiliated to the ANC and therefore we attacked that mob to hit COSATU and ANC simultaneously. This we did after having received instructions that we should hit the mob where they are gathering as a group, we should not discriminate, we should just hit for as long as they are in an ANC area.

MR WILLS: And you indicate as did Mkhize that people started firing back at you and that you eventually returned to the Mayor's house where you reported to him what had transpired, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you'll recall that certain of the Committee Members raised issues with Mr Mkhize about these attacks on bus stops and such like. I think also Mr Ngubane was quite concerned about this incident in particular and during his cross-examination. Can you describe what the political motivation could possibly be in an attack of this nature?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, it was to send a message to the ANC so that the ANC should clearly understand and acknowledge the presence of the IFP at eSikhawini and that the IFP was strong with an intention of trying to drive a point or create a situation where later the IFP leaders would address people and give them reassurance that they must join the IFP to be protected. Those who did not want to join the IFP should ultimately realise that they were not protected and therefore they should move and vacate eSikhawini so that the whole of eSikhawini would be an IFP area.

That would be easier for the IFP leaders at eSikhawini because as we have already explained that there are four sections at eSikhawini. All these other three sections are ANC sections. It is only J2 that is IFP and these three are the ones that were attacked and that is where people died. J2 was not attacked, nobody died there as well and that simply explains the fact that if a person was a member of the IFP was therefore protected, such a person was protected.

If something was going to happen or something similar to that happened which happened at Ensilini, people knew there, people who were members of the ANC.

Dina has also given an example of Bonani Insomi, he was one of the ANC leaders who were prominent in Empangeni, he resided at Ensileni himself as well but he was attacked with his followers and they were expelled from Ensinleni. I don't know whether it's still the case now but before my arrest if you entered Ensilini at the enter point there is a police station there. Next to the police station there was a flag that was hoisted there, that was the IFP flag indicating that Ensileni and surroundings was an IFP area and it was truly the case. That was the intention of the IFP leaders at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Is this what you understood by the instructions given to you by Prince Gideon Zulu when he mentioned the issue of the march of the cleaning pots?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you've indicated that after this - or where did you go after this incident was completed?

MR MBAMBO: You mean the incident at Umtokozwine bus stop?

MR WILLS: Yes, sorry the incident at Umtokozwine bus stop.

MR MBAMBO: We dispersed, myself and Dina went away on foot until we arrived at Mayor B.B. Biele's house at H2.

When we arrived there he was shocked at why we were arriving, just the two of us. We told him that we didn't know where the others were we thought that we would find them already at his house.

MR WILLS: We've heard that evidence from Mr Mkhize, Mr Mbambo, but what was Biela's - did you mention anything about this attack to Biela?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly before we went to attack Mr Mthimkhulu, even going to Umtokozwene, Biela knew about this very well because we had actually left from his house. All the final planning was done at his house, he was also present. It was for that reason that we returned to his house afterwards.

MR WILLS: And what did he say to you when you returned?

MR MBAMBO: He asked how we had fared and we told him that we attacked Mthimkhulu but we were not certain whether indeed he had been hit or killed. We explained how we had attacked and how he had escaped. We also explained that thereafter we had proceeded to Intokozwene and attacked there. This all pleased him but he was also worried that Mr Mthimkhulu had not been killed.

MR WILLS: Okay, again in respect of these incidents you haven't been prosecuted or charged or you haven't been investigated to your knowledge in any manner whatsoever as regards these two incidents.

MR MBAMBO: No I've not been investigated nor prosecuted for this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just before you move on Mr Wills, Mr Mbambo, this attack at the bus stop were you of the opinion that people that you fired at were killed or injured?

MR MBAMBO: The way which we shot I was sure that certain people did die because some fell. I think that is also the reason why the others returned fire so that they could pick up those that had fallen.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Mbambo, I want to now turn to the 28th page of the record and your paragraph 63 entitled "Further attacks on ANC members". Now you indicate that these attacks occurred approximately three weeks after incidents that we've just discussed and you mentioned that a certain person arrived in a certain vehicle and you had a meeting. Can you just give details on this?

MR MBAMBO: As we had been instructed to attack ANC members in large numbers, this required that we had a vehicle at our disposal and we did not really want to use the Mayor's car because it was well known in the area. This complaint was taken to Ulundi to M.Z. Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu and Malandona - Mr Luthuli. They then delivered a car from the Chief Minister's Department. This car was delivered by Mr Cele who worked at Ulundi. It was a combi, a Mitsubishu, white in colour. We found Mr Cele at Mrs Umbiasi's house, it was the first time that I saw him. Mrs Umbiasi introduced him to us and explained that the Chief Minister, Dr. Buthelezi had heard our grievance that we did not have transport therefore they'd issued this vehicle together with M.Z. Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu so that we can use it on attacks on ANC members.

In the car were also two guns that Mr Cele had brought with him, it was one AK47 rifle and an Uzi submachine gun. We went to the car, myself Dina Mkhize, Israel Hlungwane, Zwele Dlamini and Mr Cele as well as Victor Buthelezi. We also had our own guns such as AK47 and G3 rifles.

We had heard that there was a meeting that was to be held at Umsingwenya a higher primary school in J1 on the very same night. It was an ANC meeting. We drove to that place to attack the people who were going to be at that meeting. We parked outside the gate as we were sitting in the car, two people approached from behind the car, approaching the car. Dina then told Israel and Victor Buthelezi to alight and shoot these two people because they're going to disturb us. They did so. When these two people saw them approaching, they tried to flee, then Israel and Victor started shooting but I'm not certain whether these people were indeed hit or not.

They returned to the car but on their way a male person approached and this person was carrying books and he passed the car, he greeted us. It appeared like this person was coming from the school as if the meeting was about to disperse. After he had passed the car, just as he was about to meet Israel and Victor Buthelezi, Dina shouted through the window and said "baas". As they met him, Israel and Victor shot at this person, I think they shot him twice and then they ran into the car.

As they arrived, the car was just about to drive off, the engine was running. As we passed the school gate, it seemed that the people in the meeting had heard gunshots and they realised that it was coming from this car, our car. Some of them took cover behind the walls and they shot and we returned fire on our way.

We then went to B.B. Biela's house. We took the Main Road between eSikhawini College and Umtokozwini bus stop. We turned near the Umkabosa Bottle Store and we found a crowd of people waiting at the bus stop there. We shot at those people and these people dispersed and we continued driving until we got to the Mayor's house. We stayed for a short while at his house, thereafter we had to drive and take Mr Cele to his home. We're took him to his house Langobo an area headed by Inkose Msemela. We left him there and we returned with the guns that he had brought in the car. The reason for this was that we were supposed to continue attacking that entire weekend until Monday morning so that Mr Cele will take the car and return it to the Chief Minister.

The following evening...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Mbambo, can you just bear with me. Mr Chairperson I wonder if the Committee will just bear with me I just want to ask my learned friend a question very briefly?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbambo, during Mr Mkhize's cross-examination by Mr Ngubane, Mr Ngubane called a certain Mr Jobi who I believe is still in the public gallery today, do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Do you recognise Mr Jobi at all? You don't have to point him out now, I'm saying from your recollection on Thursday.

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you explain?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Jobi is the person we saw coming out of Masingwene H.P. School who passed our car and greeted us. As he was a bit far from the car, Dina issued the command "baas" and Israel and Victor Buthelezi shot at him.

MR WILLS: But up until last week, you didn't know the identity of this person, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Alright if you can continue with the evidence that you started relating at paragraph 69 on page 31 of the record?

MR MBAMBO: When we had returned I kept the car for the night and on the following day or rather the evening we met as a group but Mr Cele was no longer present.

We went to attack at a certain bus stop known as the Kwandana bus stop. I think it's the only bus stop that we attacked on that night because on the other areas that we used to go to we discovered that there was nobody around there.

On the following night, that is the Sunday night, we went around checking around ANC stronghold areas and we discovered that there were no crowds around there and we didn't do anything.

On Monday morning, I went to B.B. Biela's house and I picked Israel Hlungwane up. We went to Langoba to Mr Cele's house and we delivered the car and the two guns that he had brought. He then drove us back to eSikhawini. I think Israel remained at the IFP office and I dropped off at the eSikhawini police station. Mr Cele then returned to Ulundi.

MR WILLS: And is it also not correct that you attended at the police station during the course of that weekend and that is the eSikhawini police station and that you did establish that in fact that some people were killed and a number of people were injured as a result of your activities that evening?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you used an interesting word during the course of your evidence, you said and I quote, the translation in any event that: "you were supposed to attack for the whole weekend" what do you mean by that?

MR MBAMBO: I mean that we were supposed to attack all ANC strongholds using that vehicle until such time that the car was supposed to be returned to Ulundi because the reason that it had been brought to us was to attack the ANC in their large numbers in their own areas. As I have explained before that we had complained that we did not have a vehicle to use on our activities. If this car was to remain with us for an entire week, we would have attacked for that entire week until it returned back to Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Now here again you've mentioned that on the Monday morning you first drove to B.B. Biela's house. Were the persons that you've mentioned, that's Bielas and Mrs Umbiasi aware of what you were doing with this vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they were because they had taken our complaint to Ulundi and the car had been delivered to them so they were very aware, clearly aware of what we were doing.

MR WILLS: You can't think of any other reason possibly that the car was given to you?

MR MBAMBO: There is no other reason except to attack the ANC.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to page 32 of the record, your paragraph 71 concerning this incident which I'm not going to dwell on, I'm just going to take you through it in the main because Mr Mkhize has given evidence in a fair amount of detail about this. This is the strategy to influence Umtinzini Magistrate's Court to release the IFP hit squad members on bail, do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: This relates to the incident where the three Inkatha Youth Members - Mtenjwa Umbiasi and Mlambo had been arrested as a result of what Mr Mkhize told us was the attack on the ANC chairperson's house, Mr Mbeki Intuli, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And Mr Mkhize indicated that Mr Willis Mkunu, an ANC leader had testified in the bail hearing that since the arrest of these boys the violence in the eSikhawini area had subsided somewhat, do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Sorry, a question I meant to ask Mr Mkhize but possibly you can help me. Did you or Mr Mkhize to the best of your knowledge actually attend the bail hearing at the Umtinzini Court?

MR MBAMBO: Yes we were always present.

MR WILLS: So when you say Mr Mkunu testified to this effect you were present and you heard his testimony?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I was there.

MR WILLS: Now as a result of this, a decision was taken amongst a number of people that this evidence should be proved incorrect, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And you embarked upon a horrific attack on ANC areas together with your colleagues is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: What vehicle was used for the purposes of this attack?

MR MBAMBO: We used the same Mitsubishi combi that belonged to the Chief Minister, it had been brought by Mr Cele a well.

MR WILLS: Did Mr Cele know the purpose for which you were going to be operating?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he did because the eSikhawini leadership had reported to Ulundi that the car would be required to do this task that is of refuting the evidence of Mr Nkunu.

MR WILLS: I see here at paragraph 74 at the bottom of page 33 of the record you say that I threw a hand grenade at a group of people who were standing outside this block of flats?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Didn't it concern you that these people might have been neutral or innocent?

MR MBAMBO: I knew it without any hesitation that you wouldn't have resided at the Railway Hostel if you were neutral, if you were also not a member of the ANC. Even the inside of the hostel was spray painted MK, Viva ANC, Viva MK. There was always confrontation between IFP members and residents of that Railway Hostel therefore in that way I did not hesitate at all that only ANC members resided at that hostel.

MR WILLS: It seems to me that from the description of the attacks that you embarked upon as a result of this strategy that it is highly likely that possibly not at that hostel but at other areas that you attacked, that your group attacked, that certain innocent people could have been killed.

MR MBAMBO: I do not deny that it could happen that in other areas people were attacked. I would like to make an example -initially I spoke about the house where a girl was killed and it happened when people had been returning from a rally. That is a house in J1 and that house was known as a house belonging to an ANC member and the people who were shot at the ground at the stadium were on the rooftop of that house. When the IFP followers left the stadium they went to this house, they attacked the house, they burned the house, they went into the house and found a girl sleeping. They kidnapped that girl and they went to kill her at another place. After a while we discovered that the girl who had indeed died there was in fact a person - or her family had just arrived at eSikhawini and they did not know anything about the politics of the area. They found a cheap house, bought it, not knowing that the owner had left the house because maybe he was an ANC member who was fleeing from the area.

In that way I'm trying to explain that are people who were or may have been innocent who died in the fight between the ANC and the IFP. We as the IFP soldiers could not avoid this. This was supposed to be avoided by the leaders, by issuing out firm instructions that such attacks were not allowed but instead they were the people who encouraged this and they are the people who in fact taught us that we should operate in this matter. In this I am trying to explain that there may be people who did in deed die but were innocent.

MR WILLS: In short are you saying that in regard to this specific attack that your leadership was also aware of what you are saying now as regards the risk to innocent persons?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now just an interesting point on page 75, I just want you to confirm this - Mr Mkhize has testified to that - sorry page 34 paragraph 75 - I'm referring to this so-called IFP lawyer Mr Gubele. Do you confirm - do you have personal knowledge of what you say in paragraph 75 if you just want to refresh your memory?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I was there.

MR WILLS: And that was to the effect that after these attacks Mr Gubele went and he got statistics from Brigadier Msemela which were utilised at court the next day, is that right or whenever that bail application?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I was also present at the police station on that day.

MR WILLS: Now again you say that you have not been prosecuted in respect of any of these offences?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I have not been investigated nor arrested for these crimes.

MR WILLS: Would the people of eSikhawini know that you had conducted these attacks if it wasn't for yours and the other applicants statements, I mean I'm talking about you personally?

MR MBAMBO: I think that although they may have had suspicions but it would have been difficult for them to know about the activities that went on because this was indeed done in a covert manner. The people who were used in these activities were very trusted, were highly trusted in the organisation and we did these activities knowing clearly that if we could expose the information it would be similar to committing suicide because you would be killed if you did something of that nature so I don't see how the community of eSikhawini although they may have had suspicions, how they would have know certainly that the IFP and the KwaZulu government as a whole as well as the KwaZulu Police were all interwoven, we were one and the same thing on a campaign to attack and wipe out the entire ANC.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you. Mr Mbambo, I understand from the evidence from both Mr Mkhize and Mr Luthuli that if you wanted to get out of this hit squad it was very difficult, you would probably end up dead but as I understand your evidence that isn't the reason why you were operating in the hit squad, you weren't scared to be killed, you in fact wanted to do what you were doing, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to the next incident which occurs at the bottom of page 34 and that is the murder of Detective Sergeant Khumalo and his companion Mr Mabika. Now again Mr Mkhize has given evidence to this effect and if my memory serves me well this incident involved you, apart from the planning, this incident involved you, Mr Mkhize and Inkanali Pumatenja, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. Bernard Mlambo was also present.

MR WILLS: Now it's Mr Mkhize's evidence that it was Mr Matenja that actually fired the fatal shots?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: But that it was the purpose of all present and by that I include yourself that this person, Sergeant Khumalo was to be killed, in other words you intended to kill him when you went out on that operation that day?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And if Matenja hadn't have shot him, you yourself would have been fully prepared to shoot him, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: If the Committee would just bear with me for a couple of seconds.

Mr Mbambo there might have been a lack of clarity in Mr Mkhize's evidence concerning the manner at which your or the information you'd been given that Sergeant Khumalo was an ANC sympathising policeman was in fact confirmed by yourselves and that arose as a result of a communication that you had with certain policemen. Could you just briefly describe that to the Committee Members and the public?

MR MBAMBO: As I was a detective, my branch commander was Captain M.A. Masinga. We used to usually parade in the morning and he would deliver a lecture to us and assigned us to our various duties. On that very same day the same thing happened as well and on finishing leaving his office, he requested that I remain behind because he wanted to speak to me and I closed the door as he requested I do. The first thing that I noticed that he was shaking and he then said to me that there is a rumour that at the eSikhawini Police Station that there were officers, two of them, who were members of the ANC and he wanted to know whether I had knowledge as to who those officers were and I told him that I did not know, I did not have any certainty but I also had people mentioning Mazini and Masinga, the other one, not the one that I was talking to at the time and he seemed not to believe what I was saying and he indicated that there is also something else that he had heard and he said that I'm a member of the hit squad and I denied knowledge of that and he pleaded with me after that and he pleaded with me saying if there is anything that I heard about him, I should rush to inform him about it because he did not feel safe and I indicated to him that should I come across something about him I would definitely inform him even though I didn't know how and I asked him where he got that information from and he indicated that Sergeant Khumalo had phoned informing him that he knew that in the Detective Unit there is a member of the hit squads and he informed him that that member was myself.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Mbambo, I just want to ask a question relating to that issue. It would seem to me from the outside that if a police officer was to receive information from another police officer that a certain person was a member of a hit squad, he would do something about it, possibly get the matter investigated. Can you explain why it appears that Captain Masinga did nothing of this nature?

MR MBAMBO: It is because he had not investigated the matter in the first place and if he were to investigate it, he were to conduct it on his own to satisfy himself that I was indeed a member of the hit squad, because the officers and the entire police force knew that there was indeed a hit squad operating. These officers were the only ones who were not involved and they did not exactly knew who these members of the hit squad were but they knew that there was such a structure called hit squad and therefore you were to attempt investigating following the police procedure, he knew himself that he would be calling for his death. He was talking to ...[inaudible] been mentioned that if one of the officers was himself therefore he too was going to die and he was pleading with me and he wanted me to explain to him what was happening.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Mbambo, you mentioned that Ben Mlambo was also involved in this incident. Now I've been through your affidavit and you can take the time to go through it and correct me if I'm wrong but there's no mention of Ben Mlambo being involved in this incident. Can you just check your affidavit and think carefully if your for whatever reason you raised that, if you could just describe that to the Committee Members? I might be wrong, I can't recall him being mentioned in your affidavit.

MR MBAMBO: He doesn't appear in my statements.

MR WILLS: Are you sure that you remember the incident now that he was in fact present?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he was indeed present that night.

MR WILLS: Now you say that after you had this discussion with Captain Masinga you reported back to somebody is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. I went to Dina Mkhize's office, his reaction unit office and I reported to him what had happened between myself and Captain Masinga and we then went to Mrs Umbiasi, also reported to her. She then suggested that we go to Shlangawane Hall to make a telephone call the reason being that Mrs Umbiasi's home phone only received incoming calls and could therefore not make outgoing calls. He phoned Brigadier Msemela and explained to him the situation and then dropped the phone and after a while another phone call came in asking for Mrs Umbiasi and after that, the person on the line wanted to speak to Dina Mkhize.

Dina Mkhize was communicating to Captain Hlungwane on the phone. It was on a Friday, I still remember very well and he made it clear to us that by Monday Mr Khumalo must be dead.

MR WILLS: You've indicated in paragraph 81 that you used - well I infer from paragraph 81 of your affidavit page 36 that you used Constable P.B. Dube's BMW for you transport surrounding this attack, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Mkhize has basically said that you dropped off Matenja close to where Sergeant Khumalo's house was and then you proceeded and you sort of acted as a backup and then Matenja shot Sergeant Khumalo when he was talking to Mr Mabika and in the process Mr Mabika also got killed, is that correct.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard obviously Sergeant Khumalo's younger brother and also Mr Mabika's brother asking Mr Mkhize questions and it seemed that one of the main questions they asked was why did you do this?

MR MBAMBO: Let me start off the injury of Mr Mabika. His injury was a mistake. We did not know him and we were not instructed to kill him and we too did not intend killing him. It was just unfortunate that he was at the wrong place at the wrong time and that, for example if Dina had a way of stopping Matenja not to continue the shooting, maybe he should have done that but at a place where we were we could not see Mr Mabika. We just heard at the police station that two people died there, Sergeant Khumalo and Mr Mabika and enquiring about this from Mr Matenja as to how it happened, he then explained that how they came actually, Mr Mabika came and spoke to Sergeant Khumalo and at that very same time he had his gun aimed at Sergeant Khumalo and he said because Mabika was outside the car whilst Khumalo was inside the car he just told himself he was going to hit only Sergeant Khumalo because the way Mr Mabika was shot is such that it hit Mr Khumalo, that is the bullet, hit Mr Khumalo and the same bullet hit Mr Mabika.

That's the explanation he gave us so the death of Mr Mabika was an unfortunate accident but the death of Sergeant Khumalo was not a mistake, actually his death was long overdue until that date on which we were able to locate him the reason being that he was a Commander of the Murder and Robbery Unit at eSikhawini and there were dockets that he was investigating which dockets involved the death of ANC members. It is said that Sergeant Khumalo took these dockets to discuss them with Mr Welcome Mthimkhulu who was a leader of the ANC at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I just want you to pause there, you say it was said, it was said by whom?

MR MBAMBO: This is what came from the local leadership of eSikhawini and also it was confirmed by the hit squad hierarchy from Ulundi. People like M.Z. Khumalo, Captain Hlungwane, Dalco Luthuli among others. That is at the time when we were discussing the list that was formulated at the eSikhawini Shlangalane Hall.

MR WILLS: Yes you indicate that after the incident you went to Mrs Umbiasi's house, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: What happened there?

MR MBAMBO: On arrival we reported to Mrs Umbiasi what had happened and she was excited and she said she was going to phone Brigadier Msemela and inform him about this and he left it to Dina to inform Captain Hlungwane at Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Do you know if Mrs Umbiasi ever did phone Brigadier Msemela?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: How do you know that?

MR MBAMBO: I know this because Brigadier Msemela was someone that I did really contact, he was excited about the death of Sergeant Khumalo and because I knew that I did not inform him, Mrs Umbiasi therefore must have informed him.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I think Sergeant Khumalo's younger brother indicated in his questioning of Mr Mkhize that Brigadier Msemela attended the funeral and I think he said he provided a goat for the family to be slaughtered, did you hear that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I did.

MR WILLS: So why do you think, I mean this contradicts completely with the evidence that you're giving at this point in time, can you try and explain that to us?

MR MBAMBO: I think Brigadier Msemela did that, who was in charge and superior to Sergeant Khumalo and after having worked under him for a very long time he could have easily done that even though he may not have been killed by Brigadier Msemela. That was a way of showing, a way of acknowledgement for Sergeant Khumalo as a police that was working under him but what he did considering that was himself who killed Sergeant Khumalo, he was trying to cover up and shame the Khumalo family.

MR WILLS: Did Mrs Umbiasi ever report back about her telephone conversation with Brigadier Msemela to you?

MR MBAMBO: After phoning him it was indicated that Brigadier Msemela had already been informed about everything and indicated that Brigadier Msemela was going to phone Ulundi and report what has happened and said that she should wait and he would phone her back and indicate to her what it is being said by Ulundi but Brigadier Msemela did not phone back later instead Captain Hlungwane is the one who phoned explaining that Brigadier Msemela has already informed him about the whole thing and he then gave the instruction that Sergeant Khumalo must be dead by Monday.

MR WILLS: Sorry, you're misunderstanding the phone call Mr Mbambo, I know you've been in the witness box for some time. I'm referring to the phone call after you reported to Mrs Umbiasi that Sergeant Khumalo had been killed. You indicated that she was going to phone Brigadier Msemela?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Did you get any feedback in relation to that phone call i.e. the phone call that was made after you had reported that Msemela was killed, not before when the order was given?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot remember quite well whether she phoned him at that time because it was now late at night.

MR WILLS: I just want to refer you to the bottom of page - paragraph 82 on page 37.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, I think the confusing thing to Mr Mbambo is the date because I think that telephone conversation that you want him to give evidence to is the one which Mrs Umbiasi made on a Monday.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you, I'm also getting tired, thank you Ms Committee Member.

The phone call was made later the following Monday to Msemela between Mrs Umbiasi and Msemela, was the contents of that phone call reported back to you at all?

MR MBAMBO: Yes we did discuss that with Mrs Umbiasi. She explained that Msemela was so excited about the death of Sergeant Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, is this a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment? I'm going to move on to the next incident now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think so Mr Wills, I see it's just before one o'clock, we will now adjourn for lunch.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills just before the lunch adjournment you said it was it was a convenient stage to adjourn because you were getting on to a new aspect. You may continue.

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: (continues)

Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbambo I refer you to page 38 of the record, your paragraph 84. This is an incident in respect of which Mr Mkhize's testified quite extensively - it concerns the activities that stemmed from the assassination or the killing of certain policemen and notably Constable Danka. A meeting shortly after Danka's death was held. Can you just describe the details concerning that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: We held at meeting at the IFP offices at Empangeni. The people who were present was myself, Dina Mkhize, Zwele Dlamini, Joyful Mtetwa and M.R. Mkhize as well as Israel Shlangwane.

MR WILLS: Now what was the purpose of the meeting?

MR MBAMBO: J1 section at eSikhawini had endured several attacks of KwaZulu Police. The names of such police have been mentioned before this Commission. One of the policemen who had been killed in that area was Constable Danka therefore we were discussing that this area should be attacked urgently so that we could demonstrate our retaliation for the death of Constable Danka.

MR WILLS: You subsequently as a group and those persons have been mentioned by Mkhize attacked J2 section, is that right? The university lecturer section, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: You also used a KwaZulu Police vehicle ZP777 and attacked ANC areas generally that night?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You got ammunition for this attack, can you remember where?

MR MBAMBO: At the meeting in the IFP offices, Joyful Mtetwa reported that he couldn't be present when we executed this operation. What he could do was to give us guns and ammunition. We told him that the only thing that we required was ammunition for AK47 rifles and that we wouldn't require guns as such and that afternoon we went to his house together with Constable Mtetwa who worked at the B.S.I. We went to Constable Joyful Mtetwa's house at Ensileni. He then gave us ammunition for AK47 rifles.

We returned to eSikhawini. On the very same evening Dina Mkhize who was driving a ZP777 arrived, he was with Zwele Dlamini and Siam Umbiasi. At that time Israel Hlungwane stayed with me, we shared the same house. We took the guns and some hand grenades and we proceeded to J1.

MR WILLS: Yes you detail clearly in the following certain paragraphs that you attacked J1 and J2 and that you then returned to Mrs Umbiasi's house, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And she asked you a question, can you recall what that was?

MR MBAMBO: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: She asked you, on your return, she asked you a question can you recall?

MR MBAMBO: We found her sitting outside her house, if I remember correctly she was not alone, Chief Mataba was also present at the house but when we actually arrived at Mrs Umbiasi's house Chief Mataba was at a house that is opposite her house. He was drinking a few cans of Hansas which were on top of his car.

As I've mentioned Mrs Umbiasi was waiting for us outside when we returned. She then asked what kind of guns were we using tonight because the way that the shots were ringing out I could hear from here that they were not the usual type of shots I normally hear.

MR WILLS: Yes you've indicated by default that she wasn't at the meeting at the IFP offices is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: But she still knew what you were going to be up to that night?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now that is the evening that Mkhize has referred to that the woman who you knew as Mathilda was killed is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now then you indicate further on page 38 of your affidavit page 41 of the record I want you to discuss the attacks on the ANC area. Now this is again sometime during 1993 where the Mitsubishi combi was used, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you've indicated prior to this in your evidence that as soon as this combi arrived you were expected to utilise it for the purposes of attacking areas?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now you mention that you armed Israel and yourself, "armed ourselves with a G3 rifle and a stengun sub-machine pistol" that is in paragraph 91?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now this it the first time this stengun has been mentioned, where did you get this from do you know?

MR MBAMBO: I had signed for it at the police station at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: So this was an official KwaZulu Police weapon?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you then went to J1 section and you attacked a bus that was dropping off workers is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct, it was opposite Mr Nzuza's house who was a councillor at that stage.

MR WILLS: And your attack was interrupted by a South African Police vehicle, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: But you managed to escape that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now on the following Monday, again you took Cele home is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I want you to refer to paragraph 92, I've misled you.

MR MBAMBO: I don't have paragraph 92 in my statement.

MR WILLS: Don't you have page 42?

MR MBAMBO: I do have page 42 but it's paragraph 99 on page 42.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 39 of your affidavit, page 42 of the record.

MR MBAMBO: I don't have page 39.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry for that there must be a mistake there, but have you got paragraph 92 in front of you now?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you confirm the contents of that paragraph? Just look at it.

MR MBAMBO: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Just for the benefit of the public I'll read the paragraph into the record. "On Monday morning Israel and myself drove to Mr Cele's home at Langubo, we arrived at Mr Cele's home and we reported to him as to what had transpired during the weekend." By that is it correct that you reported to him that you'd used the vehicle for the purpose which he brought it to you for?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Cele then drove us back to the IFP Regional Offices in Empangeni and he left us there as he was going back to Ulundi.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] a full report of that weekend's incidents to M.Z. Khumalo as Mr Cele had been sent by M.Z. Khumalo to deliver the combi to us to execute our hit squad operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me that in these specific attacks on the ANC areas and sorry, do you have paragraph 91?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: It seems that it was just you and Israel that was involved and not Brian on this particular attack is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And also Zwele Dlamini was not involved in these particular attacks, it was just the two of you as I understand it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now have you got paragraph 94?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: That concerns an issue in Ermelo, sorry in Bushbuck Ridge, we're not going to deal with that here. We must skip that incident we'll deal with that at a later stage. See "Assassination of ANC Member, Japie Cele" okay?

The same refers to that incident which occurs on page 45 of the record and paragraph 99, that is the attempted revenge of the murder of Sipiwhe Umbiana, okay? We'll deal with this at a later stage, it doesn't involve this community.

I want to turn now to the issue of Nati Gumede's murder that's at page 43 of your affidavit, page 45(b) of the record and your paragraph 103, have you got that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Now the details of this murder have been explained in detail by Mkhize, basically he indicated that the murder was authorised by Prince Gideon Zulu at a meeting at Prince Gideon Zulu's house in Ulundi with other hierarchy present, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: He also indicated that a vehicle was provided for your usage by a - from the Chief Minister's Department?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: And that who actually delivered the vehicle to you was a driver of Prince Gideon Zulu by the name of - sorry just help me with name?

MR MBAMBO: I think that is Nyosa but he's not the one who gave us the car. We were given the car by Mr Msemela.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry you're correct ja, sorry about that.

In any event you took this car and you had two missions to perform in this car is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is true.

MR WILLS: The one was in Eshowe?

MR MBAMBO: The first one was Nati Gumede's mission and the second mission concerned the male nurse, I think his surname was Nomalo if I'm not mistaken and a security guard from the Eshowe hospital.

MR WILLS: I mean in short do you confirm Mkhize's evidence to the extent that you were given instructions by Prince Gideon Zulu to kill all three of these people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so together him together with Delako Luthuli.

MR WILLS: Now I just want to concentrate a bit on the issue leading up to the decision to kill Nati Gumede, because it concerns you personally. Prior to this decision being taken, is it not correct that you were approached by the South African Police vehicle theft unit and you were charged with the theft of a vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And that it was Nati Gumede who was a witness in this case?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now did you steal that vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR WILLS: And you confirm what Mkhize has said that this issue was thoroughly canvassed during your previous trial before Judge van der Reyden, that's case CC123/94 I think it was the Natal Eastern Circuit High Court case?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: And you were acquitted of any involvement in his case?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now I want you, if it involves you, I want you in your own words to explain why you think Nati Gumede had made this charge against you had preferred this charge against you?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, I could not think of a reason because I did not know him, we had never had a quarrel or any friction between us therefore I could not fathom a reason as to why he could do this. That is what I also told Dina Mkhize when he questioned me after having been informed that he had been sent by Captain Hlungwane. After explaining this to Dina he told me that he had reported the matter to Captain Hlungwane and Captain Hlungwane had said that we should try and investigate so as to find out the reason.

The entire leadership of eSikhawini and of Ulundi as well as ourselves were concerned about this. On following up information about Nati Gumede we discovered that although he was residing in Durban his home originally was at Langezwa. This made us to seek out people from Langezwa and try to obtain information from them. The used the IFP youth at Langezwa one of whom was under Andalatele. Andalatele told us that he knew Nati Gumede and said that he was one of the ANC youth that they'd been fighting with at Langezwa such that he fled and went to Durban.

One day we drove in Mr Mmambo's car who was at that time a principal at Eshowe, also an IFP leader at Eshowe. It was myself Zulu Dlamini and Israel Hlungwane and with Mmambo and we drove to Nati Gumede's house. On arrival we found two cars parked and these cars belonged to the ANC office at Empangeni. We didn't do anything on this particular day. On returning we discovered that it appeared as if Nati's sister worked at the ANC office at Empangeni. Dina then passed this information to Ulundi, we discussed the developments around Nati's case with the IFP leadership at the local level. I think that after a few days that information had been sent to Ulundi. Israel came to my house on his way from work and he told me that a telephone call had come through and it had requested that Dina Mkhize and myself should go to the IFP office at Empangeni on the following day.

When we got there we found M.R. Mkhize and Zwele Dlamini who told us that we were required at the head office in Ulundi and he told us that the person who wanted to see us was Prince Gideon Zulu. They gave us two hundred rand to travel to Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Mbambo thank you, we have gone through that evidence to the effect that you went and you had this meeting with Prince Gideon Zulu but my question is, is why do you think, why at the time did you think Nati Gumede was making these charges against you?

MR MBAMBO: After our investigation, we concluded that Nati had been an ANC agent to try and get one of our members arrested because there had been several occasions when the ANC tried to shoot me or kill me at my house but not succeeding. Dina had also been shot at but they were unsuccessful in their attempts.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mmambo, had you in fact prior to that had dealings with Mr Nati Gumede concerning a motor vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just briefly explain what your dealings were with Mr Gumede?

MR MBAMBO: A boy by the name of Taam Inshlongo came to me, he was with Nati Gumede and he was selling a car, a Jetta and the car was not in a satisfactory condition. He was selling this car for four thousand rands. I bought the car and I took it panelbeaters in Richards Bay, that's where all our KwaZulu cars were maintained. That's when I got to know Nati. Subsequent to that, that was when he laid this charge. I thought that he was talking about the Jetta that I'd initially bought from him but the police who were investigating the case explained that it was not this car that I was being charged for stealing but another one, that Nati said I had exchanged this particular car with the Jetta that he had sold me. The Jetta had not in fact been stolen, it was an illegal car.

MR WILLS: Just on that point, Mr Mbambo, you indicated in page 44 of your affidavit, page 46 of the record and paragraph 103 that Nati alleged that as you've said now that you had swopped essentially or exchanged this BMW for the V.W.?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is what the police told me.

MR WILLS: And it's your version that you've indicated that this is incorrect and did not occur but in fact you paid four thousand rand for the V.W. is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You know nothing about the BMW that was allegedly stolen?

MR MBAMBO: No nothing at all.

MR WILLS: Who paid your bail in respect of that case?

MR MBAMBO: It was Mr Umbiasi the husband to Mrs Umbiasi.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry, if you can just bear with me Mr Chairperson?

Sorry, Mr Mbambo I want you to just in a short as possible, possibly in a sentence, I want you to tell the Committee why you thought Nati had done this to you?

MR MBAMBO: We thought about this from the information that we had gathered about Nati, firstly that he was an ANC Youth Member who had fled from Langezwa.

Secondly we discovered that his sister worked at the ANC officers at Empangeni so we realised that his entire background was heavily influenced by the ANC, he was indeed an ANC member and a similar incident had occurred to me but that incident had been orchestrated by the IFP against Bogani Insome.

MR WILLS: Sorry, you say a similar incident, you're not telling us, what do you mean a similar incident. You don't have to tell us about Bongani Insome, Mr Mkhize gave that evidence. What you must do is you must just tell us what do you mean "the similar incident".

MR MBAMBO: That is trying to get Bongani Insome arrested after we had failed quite a number of times to kill him.

MR WILLS: So is this what you thought that Nati Gumede was doing for you through this case?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now as I understand your affidavit and I'm going to take you through it. You didn't take the decision to kill Nati is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And it's clear from your affidavit and from the evidence of both Mr Mkhize and Mr Luthuli that that authorisation came from the hierarchy at a specific meeting at Ulundi when this issue was discussed?

MR MBAMBO: Yes it is so.

MR WILLS: Now if you hadn't been given that instruction what would have you done to Nati?

MR MBAMBO: I wouldn't have done anything about it.

MR WILLS: There will be people who will probably cross-examine you on the basis that this person was killed as a result of a personal motive on your part, what are you going to say about that?

MR MBAMBO: I would explain that firstly I did not have the power to kill this person by myself. Secondly if I had intentions of killing Nati by myself I wouldn't let such a long time pass because quite a while passed between the time I was arrested and the time that Nati was eventually killed. On my release I would have gone straight to him and killed him.

MR WILLS: Yes now Mr Mkhize has given the details of this incident in quite a lot of graphic detail and I don't think we need to go into those details but essentially what happened was you kidnapped Mr Gumede from the place where he was staying in Durban, you brought him back to the eSikhawini area where you shot him and then you participated in setting fire to his body, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] explained why this was done in eSikhawini. Would you like to just tell the Committee why you did this in eSikhawini and not in Durban?

MR MBAMBO: We brought him to eSikhawini because eSikhawini was our jurisdiction area. This simply means that his death was to be investigated here at eSikhawini and by so doing we would have the power in the investigation to destroy all evidence and make sure that the investigation is not successful.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now again this is a case where you were prosecuted and you were sentenced to a period of imprisonment for effectively 25 years, 5 years for the kidnapping, 25 years for the murder and those two sentences were to run concurrently, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You're presently serving that sentence?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now I want to turn to the other subject matter of that court case, that is the assassination of Sergeant Dlamini and the murder of Bafana Jeli and his comrades which appears at paragraph 110 of your affidavit and page 50 of the record. Now we know from Mkhize's evidence that the murder of these four youths that happened at the shebeen occurred in chronology earlier in the evening that the murder of Sergeant Dlamini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And Mkhize's evidence was essentially that he had on his own been drinking at some pub, I think it was Paul and Gemmas shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: Kandani.

MR WILLS: Was he drinking at Kandani's shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And he got involved in some brawl with certain people and then he came to pick his team up to assist him in that brawl?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now my understanding from Mkhize's evidence is that he was in - was it Lamula's house when this incident occurred at the shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And in fact Mr Mkhize had nothing to do whatsoever with the killing of these four people, I mean the actual participation in the killing is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it's also seems implicit from Mkhize's evidence that that evening you did not go out to kill those four youths?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how it came about that those four youths were in fact killed?

MR MBAMBO: We were standing opposite Nmbula's house, that is where we had our car parked.

MR WILLS: When you say "we" you're referring to?

MR MBAMBO: It's Ali who was driving the car, Constable Mtetwa who was working for the B.S.I., Israel Hlungwane and myself.

MR WILLS: Now just to digress slightly on this Constable Mtetwa he is, he hasn't been mentioned much in these papers. Did he assist you, did you get the impression that he was assisting you with this mission or what was the reason for him to be there?

MR MBAMBO: At the time we were accompanying Dina to try and locate Lamula not with the intention of killing him but because Dina was angry, he wanted to fight him without anyone assisting Lamula. Dina did not know where Lamula resided but he knew where Lamula's brother was staying and he thought that we'd find him at Lambula's or Lambula would tell him where Lamula stayed and as we had our car parked there, Dina jumped the gate and into Lambula's house he went and we remained in the car waiting for him to come back. We were hoping that he would bring the house number so that we could get there and once we were waiting, there came these four boys and they walked past the car, went into Paul and Gemma's shebeen. There is a very strong electric light next to the gate and as they were walking past the light I could identify Umdanda the one that we were looking for and I then told Israel Hlungwane and Constable Mtetwa that that was the person and it transpired that they did not see him, they're not taking any notice and I then suggested that we follow them to ascertain as to whether he is the one and they turned around the house. There was yet another strong light where they were standing. Israel had a shotgun and I had a 9 mm pistol. Mtetwa had a similar 9 mm pistol and leaving the car to follow them Ali indicated that he was not comfortable remaining in the car alone and we then suggested that Constable Mtetwa should remain behind with Ali.

We then followed them and turned around the house and we found them shopping I think and I shouted "Umdanda" and he turned to face us and there was also a light where I was standing. I did not have any camouflage on my head or on my body and on turning to face us he recognised that I am Mbambo. At that moment he withdrew his AK47 and by which time I already had the pistol in my hand. I started shooting at that very same moment and Israel also shot him with his shotgun and we shot all four of them and they fell. Two pistols fell and a knife fell from the other one. Umdanda had an AK47 next to him. We took these guys, took the AK47 from him and we went back to the car.

Israel went straight to Lambula's place and he then came back with Dina.

MR WILLS: Why didn't you just restrict your shooting to Mr - or this person who you regarded as being Umdanda. Why did you decide to kill the other persons as well?

MR MBAMBO: I don't have a single reason for that but I have reasons that you can enumerate. I have earlier on explained that Umdanda was on the hit list because it was known that he was the one who hit Constable Danga with a hand grenade and also shot Constable Mthimto too and also shot Constable Mabani.

Talking about Umdanda, we were not necessarily referring to Umdanda alone, we were talking about Umdanda and his ANC gang or his Umkhonto weSizwe group and on talking about Umdanda as being the target, we were not necessarily after him alone but we also wanted the people for whom he was working and when I found them at the ...[inaudible] shebeen he was not alone he was in the company of the other three. I did not hesitate that these other three were the ones with whom he was indeed working and the reason for that was that it was at night it was round about 1, 12, midnight.

At the time of the fighting at eSikhawini there would be no one you'd find walking after eight in the evening because it was not safe. Those who walked around or travelled around during those hours were travelling in cars so that those who were walking on foot were the ones who were at war just like ourselves and thirdly they had guns, the two boys who were in their company. Fourthly, honestly speaking, even though they did not have guns, I would not have spared them because if he was found at such a place in the company Umdanda at that time, that on it's own explains that he was an ANC member. These were the ANC members we were fighting and killing at the time.

These are the reasons that I can bring forward.

MR WILLS: Yes, now is it correct as well that this incident occurred in J1 section?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that is a particularly prominent ANC area?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now later that night after this incident you committed another atrocity, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that involved the assassination of Sergeant Dlamini?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You went from this incident from J1 section to J2 section where the sergeant resided is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And I think Brian indicated that he fired some shots into the Sergeant's home?

MR MBAMBO: Yes he did fire twice with a shotgun.

MR WILLS: And then because you expected him to be armed as I understood the purpose of that was to try and elicit, retaliate, refire so that you could tell what firearms that the sergeant had, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: But no shots were returned you just got verbal abuse from the sergeant, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You then lay and waited for an opportunity for some time I believe, I don't think this was clear in Mr Mkhize's affidavit but he indicated that eventually in any event he was concerned about where the car was parked and so he went together with Mr Cele and they moved the car and they disappeared from the scene leaving you and Israel, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct with Constable Mtetwa as well.

MR WILLS: Now did Mtetwa know what was going to go on that night? When I say that, sorry, when I say that as you say in your affidavit that you discussed this after the killing of the four youths at the shebeen, you got back into the car and then a discussion arose concerning Sergeant Dlamini is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct, he knew very well.

MR WILLS: From that time onwards?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: And did he object to accompanying you on this mission?

MR MBAMBO: He was prepared as we were.

MR WILLS: So would you regard him as being as part of your group with the same common purpose of killing the sergeant?

MR MBAMBO: That was not his first operation with us.

MR WILLS: Now is it not so that he has been - he cannot be prosecuted in terms of this incident because he was used as a 204 witness, a Section 204 witness in your trial against you.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And he was granted immunity from prosecution by the Judge in that trial?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, okay from the time Brian left, can you tell us what happened that evening at Sergeant Dlamini's house?

MR MBAMBO: Dina left after we had ...[inaudible] the two doors and the wife to Sergeant Dlamini had fled with a baby on her back and I was in the kitchen, Israel at the front and Mtetwa was standing. We spent about an hour or even more.

MR WILLS: Sorry, did you say where Mtetwa was standing?

MR MBAMBO: He was standing inside the house, he was not necessarily inside the house, he was outside the house a distance between the door from the front to the kitchen door. He was standing next to the kitchen window and I was in the kitchen at the door. The doors were open by that time.

We spent about an hour there, quiet, there was darkness in the house and we didn't know in which room Sergeant Dlamini was and he must have thought that we had left and when he started moving we could then identify in which room he was. We moved in and Israel and myself met on the corridor, Hlungwane moved in front of me and I went into his room. Hlungwane went to his room and they met at the bedroom door and he shot Israel, he shot Hlungwane there - Hlungwane shot Israel there. Israel Hlungwane fired the shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've got the names - you've got the names, you said you and Israel then went in, perhaps if you can take it up from there?

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, if I can just place on record that is - I'm advised that it isn't the witness who is getting the names mixed up it was actually a problem with the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, well perhaps if we can just go over that again from the time that yourself and Israel went, moved from your positions where you were and went into the house after you had identified the room in which you thought Sergeant Dlamini was?

MR MBAMBO: I came from the kitchen towards the corridor and Israel came from the sitting room headed towards the corridor and this corridor led to the bedroom, Sergeant Dlamini's bedroom. Israel was in front of me and I was following him and he met Sergeant Dlamini at the door to his bedroom and then Israel Hlungwane shot Sergeant Dlamini on the spot. He fell and we then walked out and when we got to the door we discovered that Israel's gun did not have bullets.

I don't know whether he shot him twice or once so we did not have certainty as to whether he was dead or not. Then Constable Mtetwa gave Israel his 9 mm pistol. Israel went back into the house and shot him once and came back and we left.

MR WILLS: Mr Mbambo, is it not correct and this is something that you've told me and it doesn't appear in your affidavit, is it not correct that Sergeant Dlamini was fighting right until the moment of his death and insulting you and being in fact quite courageous right until the point of his death?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: He didn't die as a cowering dog, he was a brave man when he died, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct, he died like a hero because why, he fought back.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, I've been requested by various people because of the heat to take a five minute adjournment at about 3 o'clock, would this be a convenient time? Just to take a short adjournment so that people maybe catch a benefit of a bit of a breeze outside for a short while and be slightly refreshed and then we can start again. We'll take a very short adjournment. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Weather or not, we can proceed.

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Yes thank you very much Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbambo you received confirmation from Mr Hlungwane that Sergeant Dlamini was in fact dead, you left the scene, where did you go to thereafter?

MR MBAMBO: Thereafter we went to my house.

MR WILLS: And did you meet any of the local leadership at any stage after that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I think the following morning if I'm not mistaken it was a Sunday. I went to report at Mrs Umbiasi's house, if I remember correctly she told me that Brigadier Msemela had already called and he was indeed very pleased about the death of Sergeant Dlamini.

MR WILLS: And what about Mrs Umbiasi, what was her reaction?

MR MBAMBO: She was quite pleased as usual.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I wonder if make this request for the witness, he's requested if he can take off his jacket while he's giving evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly Mr Mbambo you can take off your jacket if you wish.

MR WILLS: You've indicated on several occasions now when these reports were made to various officials that they were delighted, I think you've used the words or happy with your activities. How did this make you feel as a police constable?

MR MBAMBO: It made me very happy and it motivated me to do my job properly and without any hesitation that everything that we were engaged in pleased our organisation. I was very proud with my job, there are quite a number of things that I can enumerate for that. If we were say for example at meetings, even in the presence of dignitaries that I did not know, if these dignitaries that I knew introduced me to the ones that I did not know, they would present me as one of their heroes and they will be fighting over who should talk to me first to such an extent that there are Members of Parliament who did not receive the same courtesy that I and my fellow colleagues received which courtesy we received from IFP leaders who were involved in our activities. I have explained before that even at the police station I was a Detective Constable but all the policemen knew that I was respected as an officer.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Mbambo, I want to turn now to paragraph 119 of your affidavit page 56 of the record which is entitled "Attempt by KZP to cover up the killings". Now we've heard evidence from Mr Mkhize which isn't necessary to repeat just for you to confirm that effectively you and he were called in to - sorry my memories fading now - you were called into Major Mkulu's office?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And essentially the killings of the recent past were discussed and what was further discussed was ways in which the matters could be covered up, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now there was further action taken as regards attempts to cover up this incident, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee what this was?

MR MBAMBO: Major Mkulu and myself when to Brigadier Msemela's office for the reason that I was refusing to continue discussing secret missions with him because he had said that he had been sent by Brigadier Msemela. I suggested that we go to Brigadier Msemela and we then went...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I can just put this in perspective here, here we're talking about you as a constable refusing to discuss this with a person who was then a Captain is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: And you essentially insisting that this go as to Brigadier Msemela, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Yes carry on?

MR MBAMBO: On arrival at Brigadier Msemela's office, Brigadier said "My son, trust Mtunu because he's my spokesman" we then started discussing the reason why I was being arrested at that particular time. They explained that the initial investigation should be done by them, the KwaZulu Police so that they can cover up all the evidence regarding the case so that when the case is transferred or goes to the Goldstone Commission, the Commission will not be able to investigate it because all important evidence will have been removed.

MR WILLS: Now just to be absolutely precise on this point, that when you say "they" the discussion occurred as I understand your evidence, between Brigadier Msemela, Captain Mkunu who was later made a Major and yourself when this cover up was discussed?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Okay continue?

MR MBAMBO: Major Mkunu then suggested that how will it be if we took empty cartridges from J1, that is at the scene where these four youths were killed and take this to the Pretoria Forensic Labratory together with gun but it should be mentioned that these cartridges had been found at Sergeant Dlamini's house. We protested because the cartridges that had been used in J1 were from the same gun. Then Brigadier Msemela said that what should be done is to shoot other - using another gun so that those cartridges would be sent to Pretoria.

We agreed on this but then I said that I didn't think that it was enough - it will be a good idea that the barrel of my gun be changed and then queried what type of gun it was and it was a 9 mm, a Z88 and there was a steel cabinet behind his chair in his office. He opened the cabinet and removed a gun similar to mine and he said I should exchange the barrels of these two guns. I did so. I then told them that Constable Mtetwa's gun had been involved in Constable Dlamini's incident. Because Mtetwa was not present at the time, it was decided that he would be contacted and some means would be devised about his gun.

We agreed that I would go to the Sondumbile Police Station to Major Zama and I would stay there and on the following day I would go to the Umtenzeni Court and I would receive bail of one hundred rands.

MR WILLS: Just to digress there slightly, how did it end up that you went to the Sondumbile Police Station, why weren't you just put in the cells at the eSikhawini Police Station?

MR MBAMBO: There were two officers at the eSikhawini Police Station, Captain Mazini and Captain Masinga who were suspected of supporting the ANC. It seemed that I would not be safe if I went to the eSikhawini Police Station and that it would then be known that I was being arrested. So it was to try to hide information so that other police at the police station wouldn't know what was happening and that Zama, being the Station Commander at Sondumbile was also a member of the hit squads so he would be able to plan for the entire thing.

MR WILLS: Sorry, was it your choice, did you get a choice of which police station to go to, could you choose or were you ordered to go to a particular police station?

MR MBAMBO: I did have a choice.

MR WILLS: And was it you who elected to go to Sondumbile?

MR MBAMBO: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: Was it you who chose to go to Sondumbile Police Station?

MR MBAMBO: It was Brigadier's suggestion which I also accepted.

MR WILLS: And why did you accept Sondumbile?

MR MBAMBO: I would like to explain this a bit - there were suspicions that eSikhawini Police Station had been infiltrated by ANC members such as the ones that I've mentioned.

MR WILLS: Sorry to bother with this, you've explained that, I think you're misunderstanding my question. What was it about Sondumbile Police Station? You've explained why you didn't want to stay at eSikhawini - what was it about Sondumbile Police Station that made you accept very politely Brigadier Msemela's suggestion?

MR MBAMBO: The Sondumbile Police Station and the entire police force as well as the Station Commander, Major Zama are all IFP members. If they'd been requested to come and give assistance to the eSikhawini police in the violence, Major Zama put it clearly that he would not work with the eSikhawini police because they have ANC members amongst them. When Sondumbile police came to work at eSikhawini all eSikhawini policemen would go off duty except for the charge officer. The Sondumbile police will then attack and shoot ANC members on the streets then Zama will make statements to cover up all those operations.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay, you were taken to Sondumbile Police Station and were you locked up or what happened to you that night? What happened to you when you arrived?

MR MBAMBO: When I arrived at Sondumbile, I went into Major Zama's office and he explained that I should relax, this is home and he took me to a cell and said this was going to be my sleeping place and he gave me an office in which I could use the phone and he told me that I wouldn't be kept in custody. I stayed at the charge office and worked with the police who were at the charge office until the following day. I then went to court in Umtumzini the following day.

MR WILLS: Do I understand your evidence that you actually, despite the fact that you were a murder suspect that you weren't actually physically locked in the cell but that you just hung around the charge office the whole evening?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You then - before you went to the court the next day did you draw some money for bail or was that after you went to court? I'm referring you to page 56 of your affidavit where - sorry paragraph 120, it's page 56 and page 58 of the record where you say that - oh sorry it was after you had been denied bail. You were denied bail and can you tell us what happened thereafter?

MR MBAMBO: We arrived at Umtunzini, I went to the witness box and they told me that the case was being postponed for further investigation and I was told that I would be kept in custody during that time.

This shocked and annoyed because we'd agreed on the R500 bail with Major Ntunu and Brigadier Msemela, how did it come about that I was not granted bail. When I left at the time Major Nkunu came to apologise to me and he showed me an entry on the docket which stated the recommended bail - R500 and he said he doesn't know how this could happen because he had specifically written R500 bail so he didn't know why the court was refusing the bail. He said I should not worry about this, they would take me to the Sondumbile Police Station and he would return to Brigadier Msemela and explain to him what had happened, it's definitely they're going to devise or try ways of getting me out.

I flatly refused to go to Sondumbile, I said I wanted to see Brigadier Msemela first. We went to the eSikhawini Police Station to see Brigadier Msemela and Ntunu explained what had happened in court. Brigadier pleaded with me and said I should return to Sondumbile and that they would contact a lawyer and who would then be able to request bail for me.

I agreed and returned to Sondumbile Police Station. On that evening Mr Gabele and his wife arrived, they had brought me food, they told me not to worry and they said they were going to return the following morning so that we could arrange for bail but he gave me an assurance that I would be released quite soon.

The following morning he returned and he requested to see me from Major Zama and he said I should prepare a sum of R1000. I told him we could go withdraw the money from the bank. Major Zama then issued out two policemen with whom we went in Mr Gabele's car, a Mercedes Benz, to a shopping centre known as Rankins and I withdrew R1000 from there which I gave to Mr Gabele.

MR WILLS: Now, you are a policeman with at least some years experience, this way you were treated is it the way people are usually treated when they're arrested for murder?

MR MBAMBO: Even if they had been arrested for pickpocketing, they wouldn't be treated in the same manner.

MR WILLS: Yes, now I just want to refer the Committee to the other volume, unfortunately it's not given a volume number but it is the volume which contains the judgements and those [inaudible] reports and such like, I want to refer the Committee to page 41 of that volume, it's page 1768 of Judge van der Reyden's judgement on sentence.

Mayor Nkunu gave evidence, at that stage he was a Major in your trial before Judge van der Reyden, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And he was cross-examined quite extensively on the part that he played after your arrest, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, is it not so and I'm going to read this into the record and for the benefit of the public that Judge van der Reyden found and I quote and I want you to confirm this that having heard and I quote "having heard and experienced the whole tragedy twice, first on the State's version thereafter the defence version which in material respects confirms this court's judgement on the merits and I emphasise, all indications are that what was viewed as incompetence on the part of Members of the KwaZulu Police Force was in all probability a deliberate attempt to frustrate and prevent a proper investigation into the murders of the four youths and that of Sergeant Dlamini. The lack of proper and vigorous investigation of these murders and more so, Sergeant Dlamini's murder tend to support the accused version that the murders were committed on instructions as part of their hit squad activities." Do you recall that?

MR MBAMBO: [inaudible]

MR WILLS: [inaudible] Nkunu's evidence, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now here, you were in respect of these of the four youths and the murder of Sergeant Dlamini and the murder of Nati Gumede effectively you got a seventy five year sentence, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: You got 25 years for the murder of Bafana Jeli and other three youths, you got 25 years for the murder of Sergeant Dlamini and you got 25 years for the murder of Nati Gumede, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you got five years for the kidnapping of Nati Gumede?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: That is only that five year portion that is to run concurrently so effectively you've got a seventy five year sentence?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: I've touched on this paragraph 122 to paragraph 124 which involved you assisting with the operations of Kanele Pumatenja and Lucky Umbiasi with their operations, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now these - you refer to certain - below in your affidavit you're referring to certain operations that were conducted by the hit squad which was operated by these youths and not you people directly and that the youths I refer to again are Matenja, Lucky Umbiasi, Bernard Mlambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes as well as Constable Umkanasi.

MR WILLS: Yes and on two incidents Siobonga Umbiasi is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now the first incident you mention is the attack on the ANC leaders house, that's the ANC leader called Beki Ntuli?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you weren't involved in this attack?

MR MBAMBO: No I was not.

MR WILLS: You were not involved in the planning of this attack?

MR MBAMBO: No I was not.

MR WILLS: In fact you had nothing to do with this attack, the only reason you include this in your affidavit is for the purpose of full disclosure of everything that you know about these operations, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes and also that it was me, Mrs Umbiasi and Mbambo who went to the Eshowe Hospital after they'd been injured.

MR WILLS: Yes but you're not applying for amnesty for the attack on Mr Ntuli?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR WILLS: Now I don't think we need to dwell on this matter very much, just to confirm what Mr Mkhize said, essentially these persons attacked Mr Ntuli's home, there was a certain amount of shooting at the home and then essentially they were injured with a hand grenade and ended up in the Eshowe Hospital, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you actually assisted in the transport of these people to the hospital.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You lost a shotgun in that attack, is that right or they lost a shotgun?

MR MBAMBO: It is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to page 61 of the record, your paragraph 130. Sorry, just before I leave that incident of Ntuli, just to confirm that the reason for these persons' arrest was not through the investigations of the KwaZulu Police at eSikhawini?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you remember why it was and who or who it was that arrested them?

MR MBAMBO: It was Captain Somalo of the Riot and Investigation Unit from Durban.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay paragraph 130 you indicate deals with issue of collecting ammunition and you confirm there that you - can you just refer to that paragraph?

MR MBAMBO: Yes I see it.

MR WILLS: And who gave you ammunition on the occasion you refer to there?

MR MBAMBO: Together with Mrs Umbiasi we travelled to Ensingwene which is under the direct control of Chief Inzuza. We went there to seek ammunition for the reason that there was a march planned at eSikhawini. This march was called "The Away with ZP March" - ANC dignitaries would be present, Chris Hani would be present as well as Jay Naidoo, Cyril Rhamaposa would also be there. They were going to lead the march in their campaign to chase the ZP away from eSikhawini. The eSikhawini leadership saw it necessary that the hit squad should be brought together so that ANC areas can be attacked. ANC leaders and followers had to be attacked in their large numbers to frustrate them before the march.

Dina Mkhize was our Commander at eSikhawini but he was sick and he was at Dundee at the time. Israel Hlungwane was at Umkuzi at our hit squad base at Umkuzi and therefore we were not complete and this IFP youth was brought together, Mandwengi and others and we went to Chief Zuza and we explained the situation that that very same night the ANC should be attacked and we should frustrate them so that their march should not be a success the following day.

Mrs Umbiasi then requested for ammunition from Chief Zuza. Chief Zuza then sent a person, he just said the person should go to the kraal, dig and bring out the ammunition. The person knew where the ammunition were in the kraal because he brought ammunition in a plastic bag. They gave us bullets for a shotgun, about 25 SSG's and as we were discussing Zuza said he was going to convene a meeting to be held at his offices where we were supposed to discuss further the ANC because the ANC was beginning to problematic in his area as well and from then on we bade one another farewell and we went to Super Buthelezi's house also in Insingwene. I had already indicated that Super Buthelezi was the IFP leader in the area and he was also Member of Parliament of the then KwaZulu Parliament.

MR WILLS: When you say the area you mean the Isingwene area? Yes that is correct.

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct and we did not find him when we got to his home. We then came back when we went to his shop which was nearer to the Chief's offices and we found him there with his wife and we discussed the same issue of attacking the ANC and that we wanted ammunition and he suggested that the two of us get into a car and we drove to his house to collect the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: So he gave you some ammunition, can you remember what ammunition he gave you?

MR MBAMBO: He gave us ammunition for AK47's

MR WILLS: And anything else? Sorry did he give you any other ammunition, just AK47 ammunition?

MR MBAMBO: If I still remember well he only gave us AK47 ammunition.

MR WILLS: Right you then and I refer to page 62 of the record, paragraph 132, can you just turn to that of your statement?

You had a meeting that meeting at the Chamber of Councils office at eSikhawini with the local leadership to discuss the attacks on ANC members is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And I just read that list of people who were present at that meeting to your recollection?

MR MBAMBO: Brigadier Msemela was present, the Mayor B.B. Biela, Mr Sibanda, Mr M.R. Mkhize he was also Mr Inzuza Councillor for J1, Umhlane Pumatenja was also present, Bernard Mlambo and myself.

MR WILLS: And you've indicated as well, was Mrs Umbiasi there?

MR MBAMBO: Yes she was present.

MR WILLS: Okay, what was discussed at that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: It was known that because there was going to be an ANC march the following day, the ANC is in different areas, they were discussing the very same march. The ANC at eSikhawini therefore were known to be people who were fond of fun and because of that reason we targeted four shebeens. Umtembo's shebeen in J1, the Set Me Free shebeen at H1, the Prem Shebeen, I think it is also in H1 and Kondani's shebeen in H2 and after having targeted these shebeens I suggested that I did not find it safe and wise to attack Kondani shebeen because the eSikhawini Commander, Dina Mkhize used to patronise the shebeen which would mean it could be possible that he's at the shebeen at the time of the attack and we would know whether he was back yet and this would also lead him to his injury and we agreed that we are going to leave out the Kondani shebeen so that we were remaining with these other three shebeens and I also indicated that we had to start with one at J1 and the ones in H1 would follow because they were the ones that were nearer to J2.

MR WILLS: You also say and I refer you specifically to paragraph 134 that you were given a mandate, can you tell us what that was?

MR MBAMBO: I was mandated to give the boys guns that were going to be used together with the ammunitions thereof and I also had to tell them how they were going to carry out the attack.

MR WILLS: Sorry, so as I understand it, you didn't personally get involved in these attacks that you detail in the following paragraphs of your affidavit, you just sort of gave advice as to how the attacks should take place and you supplied the weapons and ammunition for those attacks from the trunk is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Now this was all agreed at that meeting where these various persons that you mentioned earlier were present at the Council Chambers at eSikhawini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not correct that an attack was launched in J1 section and H2 section that night?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that Lucky Umbiasi and his cohorts reported back to you that they had in fact effected these attacks?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you reported this incident to Mrs Umbiasi?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And what was her reaction?

MR MBAMBO: She was excited about this. B.B. Biela the others were also happy. Everybody who was involved in the planning at local leadership level were very excited about this.

MR WILLS: Yes, now is it not so that you in your capacity as a detective officer attended at some of the scenes of that previous evenings attacks and you essentially did all in your power to frustrate the proper investigations of these matters?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And how did you do that?

MR MBAMBO: I went to the Set Me Free shebeen and I was in the company of other investigators. There were AK47 cartridges outside and they were in the backyard garden. I just pressed them with my foot so that they were buried under the soil. That is what I did at Set Me Free.

MR WILLS: Now judging by the detail that you give and I'm going to read this for the benefit of the public and the Committee Members in paragraph 137, you say and I'm starting from the commencement, I'm in the middle of paragraph 137. During this attack by Mtengu and that is the person who is referred to as Inkanele Pumatenja is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And his group at J1 Section alone, eleven people died and many others were injured?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Amongst the victims that were injured was an ANC female who was working at Morkels Furnishers by the name of Verah Zulu.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And at H1 section Braam shebeen, three people died whom were said to be MK members and some were injured?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: At Set Me Free shebeen, five persons were killed inside the premises and others were injured, one person was found dead outside the premises?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The total number of people that were said to be dead on that evening were 20?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: "We were never arrested or prosecuted for the above incidents"?

MR MBAMBO: Just to continue, I want you refer you to paragraph 138. Can you just the describe the report you got as regards the Gabele's home incident? You're free to refer to your affidavit, that's page 138.

MR WILLS: I was in my home at J2 where I stayed. Mr Umbiasi came, that is the husband to Mrs Umbiasi. He was accompanied by Lucky his son, also Siobonga in his company as well as Inkaneli Pumatenja. They had guns with them, one shotgun, one AK47 and G3's two of them. The two G3's were from the eSikhawini Police Station and they requested that I should try and clean them, do all in my power so that the investigation should not lead to these two guns and Mr Umbiasi explained this to me that they the previous night attacked the Gabele household and this house was at J2 along the road similar to that of Mrs Umbiasi and also that about four of five people died on that attack.

MR WILLS: Yes, your only possible role was to try and attempt then to cover up investigations which would lead to the arrest of the persons?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You did not take part in these attacks or you didn't even know anything about them, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Just very briefly, I'm wanting to rush through the paragraph commencing at 139, the attack on the IFP councillor page 65 of the record, just to confirm that this involved incident where Mr G.L. Mkhize who was an IFP supporting person was shot, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And he indicated to you that he had in fact been shot by members of the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: And that these persons were that same group that you referred to, the IFP youth - that's Sibonga Umbiasi, Umkaneli Pumatenja and Lucky Umbiasi?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that these boys reported to you that they had also attacked a shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that five people were killed at this shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And it appears to me that these boys, without your help, these boys conducted a reign of terror in eSikhawini around this time?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And your main involvement was that you made sure that they were always armed and had firearms to conduct the operations?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: As regards that attack on the shebeen that you refer to in paragraph 140, you didn't have any involvement in this attack, you just got the report?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You did not plan the attack? Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Would you please repeat your question?

MR WILLS: I said you didn't plan this attack on the shebeen?

MR MBAMBO: No I did not.

MR WILLS: Now these boys also reported to you that as regards the attack on Mr G.R. Mkhize that that was a personal feud between certain persons, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes they were sent by Mrs Umbiasi.

MR WILLS: Okay, I - paragraph 142 concerns the distribution of firearms. Now I think that the - do you confirm what's contained in that paragraph?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to the conclusion in your affidavit which commences at page 143. Now again here you sat in this hall before the community of eSikhawini and you've relayed countless instances where peoples lives would be shattered by your activities, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: I want you to explain to the community here how you feel about these incidents at this point in time?

MR MBAMBO: I feel very sad about what happened, what I did, what I did to the people of eSikhawini and the surroundings, to the relatives of those whose next of kin were hurt or injured or died. I would like to say I am very sorry about what I did. I also know that my apology cannot bring back those whom I killed but I am prepared to do whatever in my power to help them, to console them to try and heal their bleeding hearts.

My appearance before this Commission and my appearance before the other Commission last year and what I said in court in 1995, I said all this with very great regret. It was not easy for me to come before this Commission because I know that by so doing I am placing my life in danger not only among the ANC members but also reference to the IFP members. I have gone through a lot of intimidation and harassment because of the actions that I and my colleagues took, that was not done by the ANC members, but it was done by the IFP members together with their leaders because they were trying to stop us from coming here so that we could not divulge the truth and build reconciliation together with the ANC members, also the relatives of those next of kin died and suffered.

We are also sad and feel sorry that the media has a different story about the IFP but when we were together behind closed doors they will just indicate that we should just completely destroy the ANC.

I would just like say something here, to indicate that IFP leaders were completely committed to destroying the ANC and this I know will place myself and my family in danger but I am not scared of death because it is better than dying than live on, it is better to die and live on than live with the kind of conscience that I have, a painful conscience full of people's blood. You see, often times Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi would, if there was a squabble between IFP and ANC leaders, if he for example once said that AmaZulu would get tired or AmaZulu would retaliate. I am telling you today that that was an instruction that was directly indicated to us that we had to get together quickly and hit or attack the ANC to make sure that he is the righteous lips that spoketh the truth and each time he said those words, you would remember how many people who died thereafter, not only at eSikhawini also in other areas and therefore it is very hurting that himself being a leader of people is a distant away from the truth because we are trying a reconciliation between the ANC and the IFP because people who suffered here are honestly innocent people. They were protected by ourselves as leaders, the people who were not protected were the ones who suffered because of them. I am not afraid, I am prepared to die for what I am saying only if it is the truth that I stand for so that my conscience is clear. I am very sorry to every community member present here and those who were directly affected by my operations.

We have tried, myself and colleagues, tried several things to build reconciliation with the ANC. Dina has already explained that at Westville Prison, we have formed a reconciliation committee with the ANC members and this IFP Committee, all IFP members who were involved in the killing of people are involved are included here in this committee from places like Shawashabandi down to Natal Midlands up here in Northern Natal and the ANC is similarly represented because we have clearly indicated that we are now tired to be used by leaders and at the end they disown and deny knowledge of their activities. I have been appointed chairman of this committee with my colleague Bononumbi who comes from Chief David Ndombela and within the ANC they have Supisi Sanbambo, leader of the ANC from Clermont and we also have Tom Mhlala a member of the ANC from the South Coast.

We have introduced this to the IFP and presented it to the ANC as well. The ANC was given Willis Ntunu who is Deputy Speaker for the KwaZulu Natal government, so that he is the one who works hand in hand and co-operate with us and the IFP issued Dingele who comes from Indedwe, also a Member of Parliament in the KwaZulu Natal Government and we also have Captain Hleng who is implicated in these statements together with Nicky Britz, they come from the IFP office. We have come together and formulated a manifesto which we sent to the IFP and ANC offices with an intention that the leader should come to us so that we could address them as to what should be done. Presently, the leaders of the two organisations have started collaborating from thence.

I am trying to indicate how sorry we are about what we did and to show how much a distance we are prepared to travel to avoid a repeat of a similar situation in future.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you, Mr Mbambo, just a few points to close on. Is it also not so that you have disclosed all of this information to the various police authorities that have interview you in respect of these matters and such includes organisations previously like the Goldstone Commission, the I.T.U. and other policemen who have come to see you from as far afield as the Attorney General in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct. That was not the end of it, we did not only expose what we did, we also went on to assist the eSikhawini community after our arrest. The eSikhawini will also remember that there was a day when they were attacked on the day of The Line T.V. drama. We had been arrested by then, we were no longer at eSikhawini but people who were continuing to operate were still at eSikhawini. This T.V. drama, if I were explain so that those who don't know should understand, was explaining or discussing the dying of people and shooting of people in trains in Johannesburg and the characters were used as assassins in the drama, these characters spoke Isizulu and therefore in Johannesburg it was assumed that a person who spoke Isuzulu came from Natal and therefore he was Inkatha. Many IFP leaders including Temba Kosa in Johannesburg spoke loudly and vociferously about this T.V. drama in the media in all sorts of community forums, explaining that this drama would anger AmaZulu so that they would be pushed into fighting because the kind of picture portrayed in the drama was such that AmaZulu are the ones who were killing people in the trains. As I have explained that when it is said that AmaZulu would get angry and fight, that is actually a command. Here at eSikhawini M.R. Mkhize of the Empangeni office and as well as the member of eSikhawini in J2 who is also a leader of the IFP at the time, Solo Dube, together with B.B. Biele the Mayor, they brought together Constable Umleje who was working at the eSikhawini Police Station as well as Jabulani Kanele from Port Danford who was working at the bakery and they gave them G3's, they then went to attack all houses in J1.

All houses that were watching television on that hour during which the drama was shown on television, that was

actually a sign to the effect that what Temba Kosa from Johannesburg was saying was actually a word of instruction that would be carried out.

That is not the end of it, I will also explain further as to how we knew that because we were incarcerated. There were white police officers who were investigating the case for which we were arrested. One of the them was Major van der Zwagen and Brigadier du Preez. They booked the three of us out from the Pietermarizburg prison and they took us to a park where we braaied meat. A combi from their unit also arrived. In that combi was Jabulani Kanele, Jabulani Kanele he was a suspect. Major van der Zwagen then told us that there was a person who was claiming to be one of our members and they were investigating him about the incidents of the night of "The Line". We then got into the car and we asked Jabulani Kanele how things were going at eSikhawini. Because he trusted us, because at the time nobody knew that we had now started working in collaboration with the I.T.U., he then told us the entire story. We then told him to relax and that nothing was going to happen to him and then related this story to Major van der Zwagen and Major du Preez.

These two policemen were not investigating to arrest this guy but just to confirm if he was indeed one of our members and then they would release him because Major van der Zwagen and Major du Preez were then at the time working for Inkatha. I have evidence of this which I can demonstrate. They took Dina Mkhize saying that they are taking him to make statements to the Goldstone Commission. He was kept in Pietermaritzburg at Townhill for the entire week, he made these statements and then they took these statements to M.Z. Khumalo in Ulundi. I heard when I was asked by B.B. Biela as to why Dina was betraying them now. When I asked how he knew about this he said Brigadier du Preez had taken Dina's statements to M.Z. Khumalo. What I'm saying today can be attested to by several witnesses. Captain Mazumkunu, Sergeant Masila and other policemen who worked within the I.T.U. with whom I was with when Biela told me this at his home.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Mbambo, thank you for that. We're at the end of the day now, but in short if I can summarise the purpose, as I understand it, the purpose for your co-operation with the police after all of these atrocities and your co-operation with organisation like the I.T.U., like the Truth Commission, and previously with the Goldstone Commission, is simply for one purpose only and can you tell us what that purpose is, very briefly?

MR MBAMBO: It was to assist the I.T.U. to wipe out the hit squads because we regret our activities, we recognise our mistakes.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you very much. Mr Chairperson there are one or two very small little issues that I'd just like to cover tomorrow just to round up this evidence but I see the hour is late so if I could do that in the morning?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly Mr Wills, we will then, seeing that we've come to the end of the day's proceedings we'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning in this hall as well.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS