Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee which has met to consider an application by Vusi Linda Hlengwa. The Committee comprises of myself as Chairman, Advocate Chris de Jager as Senior Counsel on my right and Advocate Ntsiki Sandi on my left. Mr Brink are we ready to proceed?

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shembe?

MR SHEMBE: Yes Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: That’s correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: My full name is Phinda. (spelt)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Surname is Shembe. (spelt)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Brink, why are we starting so late?

MR BRINK: The prisoner was not here on time, the applicant rather.

ADV DE JAGER: Is there anyone in command of the prison people? Could we have an explanation as to why he’s so late?

CHAIRPERSON: The prison opens up at seven.

MR BRINK: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The prison opens up at seven.

MR WILLS: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: But I think you were told that we start at half past nine. The Magistrate’s Court starts at half past nine in the morning ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you are ...(inaudible) Mr Shembe are you ready to proceed?

MR SHEMBE: Yes Mr Chairman, I’m ready.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: That’s correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlengwa, you are appearing today in front of the Amnesty Committee to ask for an amnesty for the offences you are just serving sentence for and in order for you to be considered for amnesty you must be truthful in all what you’re going to say in front of this Honourable Committee today. I would like you to take us step by step and precisely and concisely as to what actually happened because you are the only person who knows exactly what happened, where it happened, how it happened. Without you we cannot reach the truth which can lead you to freedom or which can keep you in prison as long as the sentence you were given. I hope I make myself clear to you. So starting now, you were convicted for committing six offences so for how many of them are you asking amnesty for?

MR HLENGWA: With regard to all the counts.

MR SHEMBE: Can you take us as to how did you come about to commit the offence number one, that is the murder Masulele Makanja?

MR HLENGWA: I’ll first start by saying that our place was having problems. If Masulele - if we did not have problems that is the Inkatha as well as the UDF, Masulele would be alive today. I don’t know whether I should go on?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be better ...(inaudible) instead of allowing him to ...(inaudible) put your questions to him specifically you know, lead him. It would be better if you led him.

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR HLENGWA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: I beg yours Mr Chairperson ?

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you could tell us who was the victim Makanja?

MR SHEMBE: Mr Hlengwa can you tell us who was this victim Masulele Makanja?

MR HLENGWA: Masulele Makanja was a person that I grew up with in that neighbourhood or village. We were staying in different sections, he was staying at the other section but generally we grew up together. We had friends in those different sections, I had friends in his section, he also had friends in my section but as soon as there was this eruption of violence between the Inkatha and the UDF, that’s when the cracks in the relationship started showing.

CHAIRPERSON: When...(inaudible) the eruption ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I could say this started in 1989.

MR SHEMBE: Do you know which political party was this Masulele Makanja?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I do.

MR SHEMBE: Which political party was it?

MR HLENGWA: He was a member of the UDF.

MR SHEMBE: And what is your political affiliation?

MR HLENGWA: I was a member of Inkatha.

MR SHEMBE: Are you still a member of Inkatha?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I could say that but I haven’t been politically active since I’ve been imprisoned.

MR SHEMBE: In your application for Amnesty you mentioned that your house was burnt down and that thereafter ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR SHEMBE: And thereafter there was this attack which, there was this anger which you had inside you which prompted you to attack. Did you any specific person to attack after the burning of your homestead or you had the anger vented against the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) we don’t know when his house was burnt down. I think you should first put that on record as evidence - he may have said it in his application for amnesty but that’s not evidence.

MR SHEMBE: For the record Mr Hlengwa, is it correct that your homestead was burnt down somewhere in 1988?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is true.

MR SHEMBE: Do you have ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: That was in 1990 when my house was attacked.

MR SHEMBE: Do you know or do you have any knowledge as to how was that house burnt?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I do have some knowledge as to how my house was attacked.

MR SHEMBE: Can you briefly tell this Commission as to how this house was burnt and ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: Even before I get to the attack and burning down of the house, I was detained of the State of Emergency and thereafter certain members of the UDF who were my neighbours with Masulele included as well as Tambani Mbata, they came and Masulele pointed me out. They were together with the soldiers and I was taken into the Casspir. I was arrested and incarcerated CR Swart and the police at CR Swart tortured us and humiliated us. That was their job to make us admit to some things that we didn’t do and they broke my jaw.

CHAIRPERSON: When he talks about they arrested us and they tortured us, we would like to know what he’s talking about, who is us - is he talking about himself or is he talking about a lot of other people?

MR SHEMBE: When you say ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: I was arrested all by myself. The other one who was with me has since been deceased.

MR SHEMBE: You have not come to the exactly, come now to the actual burning of your homestead, how was your homestead burnt then?

MR HLENGWA: It was at night, we were just sitting not expecting anything and we heard some gunfire outside. Whenever there was gunfire people would switch off their lights and seek some hiding places and I was able to peep through and see as to what was going on. I saw a group of people from different directions as well as the direction of the hostel and some were coming from just above my place. When this happened it was apparent that these people were coming towards my place and I decided that we should either defend ourselves or run away. I was armed at the time, I had petrol bombs as well as self, a self-made pistol or gun and I was able to shoot at them, they got scattered.

ADV SANDI: Mr Shembe, can you ask your client who he’s talking about when he says we decided to defend ourselves? Who was that?

MR SHEMBE: ...(no sound)

MR HLENGWA: I’m referring to myself because I was the one who was at home because my brother was not staying at my place at that time and all the members of my family had to hide themselves, that’s when they threw in the bombs inside the house. I also shot back without aiming at anyone in particular, I just wanted them to get scattered and I wanted to protect my family and I wanted the attackers to run away. My gun was a self-made gun and whenever this gun goes off anyone would be scared because of the sound it emits. The attackers realised that I was also fighting for my life, they all scattered. They ran away and when they ran away we were able to see as to how much the damage was. When I looked around I realised that part of the wall had fallen off as well as the curtains and I went to the back of the house - I saw some petrol bombs. We collected all the evidence and we sat and waited to see as to whether they were going to come back but luckily they did not come back, that’s when I realised that it’s very important or imperative upon us or upon myself to protect myself and that was the way that I was going to protect myself because our neighbours were scared to come out whenever these attacks took place and it was ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: We’ve got to write down whatever he says or we’re trying to do so to get a clear picture so if he could go a little bit slower it would be of great assistance.

ADV SANDI: And also Mr Shembe, when your client goes further can you ask him to connect Mr Makanja to this, can you tell us how ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: I will do that in the course of time.

ADV SANDI: Okay.

MR SHEMBE: Were you able to see whether in that firing of yours on the day of the burning of the house, were there any persons injured there?

MR HLENGWA: I’m not positive, I cannot say as to whether there was anyone who was injured at that time because what was important at that time was my safety as well as the damage that had been done to the house.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) identify anyone, anyone as to whether these are the members of ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could you please finish your question? Could the speaker please finish his question.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) in a position to identify the attackers?

MR HLENGWA: No, I was not able to positively identify anyone but I heard voices that I could identify and I knew that they were the members of the UDF. As I was a member of Inkatha, I believed that Inkatha was fighting for freedom and I believed that the UDF was trying to thwart our attempts to fight for freedom.

MR SHEMBE: So before coming to that, how did you feel about the attack on your family toward ...(intervention).

MR HLENGWA: Thereafter I felt very unsafe and not free because there were these sporadic attacks. I also had some scars which had been inflicted by the members of the UDF. It became clear to me that even when I was arrested under the State of Emergency, they had pointed me out and I realised that the UDF was my enemy or our enemy as Inkatha members and they wanted to kill us.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) and general you know, I want to know for example when was he arrested during the State of Emergency, where was he arrested, for how long because he might want to make enquiries from the police whether that is true.

MR SHEMBE: I understand Mr Chairman. You have just mentioned that you were having, you are having scars now or wounds which you’ve sustained through the attack by the opponent, where are those scars in your body?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no Englsih translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What wounds did you have?

MR HLENGWA: The first one is where I’m pointing, the second one I was shot where I’m pointing, it’s the back and they extracted the bullet at the hospital, it was fired from a 38 calibre gun. I was shot on my right leg as well. That’s when I realised that I had to arm myself because if I didn’t arm myself I was going to get killed because other members of Inkatha had been killed by that time.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to say that these are the injuries he received on that occasion when people came there to attack his house and he fired and they scattered, is that the occasion when he got these injuries?

MR SHEMBE: That’s where I was coming to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlengwa do you, just wait ...(intervention) You ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you, could the applicant kindly listen to me. Wait for your Counsel to ask the question - he’ll lead you in order to bring out the dates and the occasions so don’t answer before he finished his question because he’ll help you to give us a, the full picture if you only listen to him and answer his questions.

MR SHEMBE: You have just mentioned the injuries, on which day or on which incident did you sustain those injuries?

MR HLENGWA: These were on different occasions but on this particular day of the attack they were not able to injure me because I was able to defend myself. These happened on different occasions, there were many times where we had fights with the UDF, where they would attack us and at times we would launch some counter attacks or defend ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again to make just, there must be some coherence Mr Shembe in his evidence and one can’t allow him to ramble about events in a disjointed way. Now you’ve asked him about when this house was attacked, he was not injured on that occasion. Now please carry on from there and don’t let him ramble about other incidents on other occasions and so on please. If it becomes relevant from your point of view, then say so and give us the date and time and so on but if it is in relation to offences for which he has been previously convicted and involved in shootings and fighting’s then it’s another matter.

MR SHEMBE: I would also request Mr Hlengwa when he speaks to look at me so that I can stop him when he’s rambling.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we’d like him to look up then we can see him.

MR SHEMBE: So you have just said - we are on the incident of the burning of the house now and the day of that incident you didn’t suffer any injuries so now the issue of those incidents - of those injuries you sustained, were they reported to the police that you have been attacked?

MR HLENGWA: There was no time for you to go to the police to report any injuries because it was even difficult for us to go to the hospital. The police would just come at random especially after they’ve heard some gunfire and they would come and sort the matters out but it was difficult for us to go to the police at that stage. ...(no sound)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he repelled the attack on his house, we’ve heard that. He did not get injured on that occasion, what is the next thing that happened which is relevant for the purpose of this application?

MR SHEMBE: Now, you have correctly said that on the day of the attack on your house, you repelled the attack and you didn’t sustain any injuries and then thereafter, from there onwards, how did this political fighting, how did this political misunderstanding between your party and the opponent carry on?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Between himself, as we are concerned not with his political party, we are concerned about his involvement.

MR SHEMBE: Let’s take - today let’s say we are being attacked, your house is being attacked and then you are chasing the attackers away from your house, you individually not your party. Now, how did you feel and what was your reaction thereafter to the opponent, after the day of the attack on your homestead?

MR HLENGWA: Thereafter I felt unsafe and not free and I was also concerned for the safety of my family as well as my immediate neighbours and that’s when I decided that I should also arm myself so that I could be able to defend myself whenever there was any attack.

MR SHEMBE: How did you then arm yourself to defend yourself?

MR HLENGWA: I tried all means to get enough stuff in order to be able to fend off my opponents, or my political opponents. I got a self-made gun and I made a resolution that I was going to retaliate whenever there was an attack upon us then the UDF started being my enemy, I could not trust them anymore. As a result ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) I think you must exercise greater control ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: On the night of the attack on your house, you already had a self-made gun because you fired the gun.

MR HLENGWA: On the day of the attack, yes I had the gun, I already had it, I had two of them.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) get the first one?

MR HLENGWA: The first time that I obtained a gun was from, when I came from detention that is from CR Swart and the second one ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment, the first one you got when you came from the detention from CR Swart.

MR HLENGWA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: When was that?

MR HLENGWA: If I remember quite well, I was arrested on the 2nd of November and I stayed for a period of two months.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) the 2nd of November of what year?

MR HLENGWA: In 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you November 1989 - and then you were released at the beginning of 1990, is that correct if you stayed two months?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay after your release, how long after your release did they - was there an attempt to burn your house?

MR HLENGWA: If remember quite well I think it was after about two weeks or it could have been one week but I don’t remember quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened after the attack, what was the next thing that happened after his house was attacked?

MR HLENGWA: After my home was attacked, I also tried to retaliate or revenge - on these the UDF members.

No sound.

CHAIRPERSON: I obtained a gun.

MR SHEMBE: Was it now - you have already had two guns, was it the third gun now you’re trying to obtain in order to retaliate?

MR HLENGWA: No, I’m referring to the two that I had.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) and to retaliate with those guns, what action did you actually do when you say you retaliate with those guns, the actual action now we want to know.

MR HLENGWA: My revenge that whenever I came across a UDF member, I would regard him as an enemy and I launched counter attacks on the members of the UDF. I went to Section 23 ...(intervention)

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) steady don’t rush because the Judges are writing up there. In your retaliation you said ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you came across a UDF member you would attack them, is that what you said?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) a UDF person you attacked and when?

MR HLENGWA: The first attack, I did not attack a specific person but we were fighting. There is a school that divides us so there were members of UDF on the other side and members of Inkatha on the opposite side and we were fighting against each other. At times they would throw stones at us and we would throw them back and we started shooting at each other.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR HLENGWA: It was during 1990. I think it was somewhere in March, between February and March.

MR SHEMBE: Can you recall whether there was (no sound) person killed in that attack of yours?

MR HLENGWA: Even if there was a person that was injured or killed, it was not easy for us to look because we - after the attack the people would take their injured and run away with them and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) know whether there were any injured?

MR SHEMBE: And then what was your next retaliation on the UDF people and what is the next retaliation?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I could say there were people who died as well as people who got injured, on both sides.

CHAIRPERSON: Your involvement we’re talking about now. You’ve described that after the burning of your house the first incident was when a group of you attacked a group on the other side, you threw stones and shot. You were asked whether you knew whether anybody was injured and we gather that you don’t know, what was the next incident?

MR HLENGWA: I don’t remember the date quite well as well as the days because the way in which the attacks were launched, you’d not be able to look thereafter as to what day and what time because this was an ongoing process, it happened over a long period of time for consecutive days that there would be these attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Now Mr Hlengwa, don’t mentioned those incidents where you were involved as collectively but the specific incidents which involved you which you can precisely remember as to what part did I actually play. Are we clear on that issue? Say what part you actually played as an individual.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I assist? We’ve got a picture now that there was fights between the two groups, the UDF on the one side and IFP on the other side and these fights continued over a period but now we want you to tell us about the cases where you were convicted in court. The first one was the killing of Makanja, could you now kindly tell us what happened, why you decided to kill Makanja and when this occurred?

MR HLENGWA: Masulele Makanja, what made me kill him was I was not specifically gunning for him but I wanted to kill somebody who was staying in the UDF stronghold and who was also a member of the UDF because that is how they were launching their attacks. That is how I planned to launch my attack, I did not specifically single Makanja out.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) moment then.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone?

MR HLENGWA: When I went to attack it was at night.

ADV DE JAGER: Please listen.

MR HLENGWA: I was with Bheki.

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment, you would make it very easy if you only listen to the question. The Chairperson asked you whether you went alone, did you go alone or did somebody accompany you?

MR HLENGWA: There were two of us.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: Bheki Patrick Zwane.

MR SHEMBE: Now you arrive at ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Bheki Patrick Zwane, is that one person or are they the names of two different people?

MR HLENGWA: It’s one person.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) person?

MR HLENGWA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said he went with ...

MR HLENGWA: There were two of us, myself as well as Bheki Patrick Zwane ... there were two of us.

MR SHEMBE: Now you are at the scene of the UDF people, what action did you do as Hlengwa, tell us that? When you arrived there, now you arrived at the place, what did you actually do, tell us ...?

MR HLENGWA: Even before I get to the point where I got Masulele, I went ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the question that is put to you, don’t talk about going before the point, first answer the question that your Counsel is putting to you. The question was, when you arrived there what did you do?

MR HLENGWA: When I got there I shot, I killed.

CHAIRPERSON: How many shots?

MR HLENGWA: If I remember well I shot, I fired two times because I shot a certain guy by the name of Simiso, I’ve forgotten his surname. After shooting Simiso and the crowd that was outside there dispersed and we went into the house. When I got into the house Bheki was left outside, I was the one who went into the house and I got Masulele, I shot him and he died. I feel very sad about the way it happened because if I remember very well they were from a funeral and they had come from burying Masulele’s brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, in whose house did this incident occur the shooting, where did this happen?

MR HLENGWA: I remember a boy who stays there, his name was Dishi but I don’t remember the surname or the household name.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any way in which we can identify the place where this occurred?

MR HLENGWA: When I went there I told myself that I was going to attack a UDF stronghold so I did not specifically know the house as to who it belonged to.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) us please, you know where the stronghold was, we don’t even where you were living at the time, we don’t know whether you talk about Durban or Cape Town or where.

MR HLENGWA: The area I’m referring to is Kwamakhuta. It was ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: What section?

MR HLENGWA: Section 23.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you living at that time?

MR HLENGWA: I was staying at Section 19.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the man Simiso, was he injured?

MR HLENGWA: Simiso didn’t die he got injured.

MR SHEMBE: Did you realise after you were shooting that someone has died?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I did realise that there was a person who died because I shot him at point blank at close range and I was sure that he died but I wasn’t sure about Simiso.

MR SHEMBE: Were you also, did you also realise as to how many might have died, how many people died or you were only sure of one person?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa no translation.

MR SHEMBE: Were you exact of the number of the deceased, how many people died at your shooting?

MR HLENGWA: One person died.

MR SHEMBE: At the time of your shooting, where was this other person who were in your company, Bheki Zwane?

MR HLENGWA: He was standing outside just next to the door.

MR SHEMBE: What was, what were you carrying with you besides the gun you were shooting with?

MR HLENGWA: It was gun as well as something that looked like a tomahawk, I could refer to it as an axe.

MR SHEMBE: Did you use, did you also use that tomahawk in your attack?

MR HLENGWA: Yes I did but what I remember using is the gun, I remember clearly using the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you use the axe for?

MR HLENGWA: I think I hacked Masulele because mine was a self-made gun and I wanted to make sure that he was dead. After shooting him I hacked him.

MR SHEMBE: What did you do after you shot him?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I started by shooting him and then I finished him off with the tomahawk.

MR SHEMBE: What did you further do?

MR HLENGWA: I left thereafter, I went back home and I came across Ngamula, we went back.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) any other questions relating to this incident that you would like to bring out? You may then pass on to the next event - you know, try and make it in sequence so that we can have a clearer picture of what is happening.

MR SHEMBE: As far as this night of Masulele’s death, did you, do you remember as to how many people were also injured in that house?

MR HLENGWA: I only remember Masulele the one I injured but later on I saw Simiso, that is at the court. I also realised that Simiso was also injured so these are the two people. Then Makosi from Xhosa’s place or Makosi Xhosa also said I pointed a gun at her.

MR SHEMBE: Was it on the same ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, can you kindly repeat the name of the other person injured which you realised was injured at the court, what was his name?

MR HLENGWA: That was Simiso.

CHAIRPERSON: We’d like to take it down, what is his name?

MR HLENGWA: Simiso. (spelt)

MR SHEMBE: Who else was also injured on the night of Masulele’s ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He’s only mentioned those people.

MR HLENGWA: It was only Simiso and Makanja Masulele died.

MR SHEMBE: Now there is another offence for which you were convicted, that is the one of assault and robbery on Letuli, Rosemary Letuli, what can you tell us as to how that robbery and assault happened. Take us steadily and precisely as to what actually happened and your actual part you played in that assault.

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa no translation.

MR SHEMBE: And the date as to when even if you cannot remember exact date, the approximation of the date and the year.

MR HLENGWA: If I remember well the month was April, it was still very early in April and I would like to relate the background as to what happened that led me to that. There is a certain man by the name of Langa ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly go slowly. We’ve go information that it was on Friday the 13th of April 1990, could that be correct?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that could be true because it was still early in April.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us, where did this incident occur?

MR HLENGWA: That was in Section 18.

MR SHEMBE: What happened, what did you do on the 13th then, tell us the exact event you did.

MR HLENGWA: On that day at Section 18 - the Section 18 was divided, there were some other who were members of the UDF and Inkatha members within the same section so the other ones had fled their places because of the violence Inkatha and UDF and on that particular day I saw Langa Tsele. I used to see Langa Tsele during the attacks that were going on between the UDF and the Inkatha and when I saw Langa I decided that I had to attack him. Just as I was trying to attack him he ran across Rosemary Mapumulo’s house and when I went in there I saw Bheki Zwane and Langa escaped and went to the next house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) he ran into whose house, this man Langa Tsele?

MR HLENGWA: It’s Rosemary’s house, I think it’s Rosemary.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) after he ran into Rosemary’s house?

MR HLENGWA: At that stage whilst I was chasing Langa, Bheki Patrick Zwane came across because he had realised that there was a fight and he came, he was in a warpath also.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: What I mean is that I saw him armed when he was approaching me. I don’t remember what he was having in his hand but he was armed and I do not want to commit myself and say he was carrying this sort of a weapon. I don’t remember what kind of weapon he had but at that stage I saw that he had something with him and he had come to attack. I continued chasing Langa and I went into that house and kicked the door - I heard a woman screaming. I continued chasing Langa and I left Bheki behind. I chased Langa but I could not get him and when I could not get him, I turned back and I went to the house. I came across Bheki Zwane and we went back to our place. On the following day if I remember quite well, a certain man by the name of Mkhize, Tembi Nkosi, Agripa, Mkhize and came to us ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) know whether you are able to take all this down, certainly I’m not.

MR SHEMBE: I’m also failing to but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Mr Hlengwa ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the following day.

MR HLENGWA: On the following day Tembi Nkosi, Agripa, Mkhize came, Tembi Nkosi, Agripa, Mkhize ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: Mkh, do you want the surname or the name?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: On the following day Mkhize came to my place to try and find out as to why we attacked because we had taken, apparently a radio was taken but I wasn’t aware of that. He asked about the radio and I told him I didn’t know anything about the radio.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I think it was at Rosemary’s place.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I don’t remember whether Rosemary is Rosemary Mapumulo or these are two different houses.

ADV DE JAGER: According to the papers before us, she’s made a statement and her full names are Rosemary Tuli Mtuli, Letuli, Rosemary Tuli Letuli.

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

ADV DE JAGER: And she was staying at 1863 KwaMakhuta.

MR HLENGWA: I think that’s the same person, I just don’t remember quite well but I would agree it could be the same person.

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mkhize comes to ask you about the radio that was taken from Rosemary’s place, tell us what happened then.

MR HLENGWA: And there was a verbal altercation, he said he wanted the radio because he had received a complaint and I told him that I knew nothing about the radio. I asked Bheki as to whether he knew anything about the radio and I told him to take out the radio because we were going to be arrested for some things that we didn’t know. At a later stage Bheki took the radio out and gave it to Mkhize and Mkhize took the radio, I think he took it back to Rosemary’s house. There was relative calm thereafter.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) Rosemary’s place, did you assault or did you attack her personally? Did you make any assault or attack on her?

MR HLENGWA: I don’t remember what happened to Rosemary. I remember seeing her but I continued to chase my opponent. The last time I saw her she was closing the door and I kicked the door. Maybe I broke the door but I continued to chase my opponent. I don’t know what happened to Rosemary thereafter. I saw Mkhize coming and looking for the radio, that is all that happened at Rosemary’s place.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) say he did to the door?

CHAIRPERSON: He kicked and broke the door.

ADV SANDI: He kicked.

INTERPRETER: He said he kicked the door and the door might probably have broken down, he’s not positive or sure about that aspect.

MR SHEMBE: Now Mr Hlengwa, I understand that we are through with this issue of Letuli. There is another count whereby you killed Zwane, Gamla Zwane, can you tell us - can explain to us as to how did that come about? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) no don’t do that. First of all tell him when did this happen, where did it happen and so on.

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

MR SHEMBE: Mr Hlengwa, Bheki Patrick Zwane, is it correct that he was one of your friends?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is true.

MR SHEMBE: Is it also correct that you were in the same party with him?

MR HLENGWA: That’s correct.

MR SHEMBE: But his death came about through you?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR SHEMBE: When was that?

MR HLENGWA: It happened between the 27th and the 28th of April.

MR SHEMBE: How did it ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: April 28th.

MR SHEMBE: Of which year?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

MR SHEMBE: Of which year?

MR HLENGWA: 1990.

MR SHEMBE: Tell us then ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, so it was about two weeks after you’ve chased Langa and after you’ve been at Rosemary’s house?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct I would say.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us, where did you kill Zwane?

MR HLENGWA: I killed him at the same section where I stay, I shot him. I shot him in the street, not in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it during the day or at night?

MR HLENGWA: It was broad daylight.

MR SHEMBE: Who was also there when you shot Bheki Zwane?

MR HLENGWA: There were a lot of people. I do not know them by names but there were a lot of people.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Zwane with?

MR HLENGWA: He was all by himself. We were drinking there.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: Yes, it was a joint or a shebeen.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) house or at the street?

MR HLENGWA: He died outside at the street.

MR SHEMBE: At the street or you were from drinking at the house?

MR HLENGWA: He died on the street.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say we were drinking, who is we?

MR HLENGWA: There were a lot of people drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) drinking there as well?

MR HLENGWA: Zwane was not present at that time when we were drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your shooting him occurred on the street?

MR HLENGWA: When I shot Bheki Patrick Zwane it was a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what mistake it was.

MR HLENGWA: It was a mistake. I had a mind that Bheki was selling me out to my opponents, I was not sure but I did not want my fears to be confirmed but I realised after I had shot him that it was a mistake on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) at any rate before you talk about what happened after you shot him, tell us what led you to shoot him? You thought he was selling you out to your opponents so what happened then?

MR HLENGWA: I had a suspicion that he was going to sell me out ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to that.

MR HLENGWA: I’m explaining that Bheki was shot by mistake, I can’t explain as to how he was shot because I think my mind was disturbed at the time.

ADV DE JAGER: Let’s now get it clear, you had a suspicion that he was selling you out to your opponents.

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) drinking in a shebeen?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I was drinking.

ADV DE JAGER: You walked out of the shebeen, is that correct?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct. I did not see him, he was called. I don’t know who called him but I remember that he was called by somebody to come and intervene but when he came to intervene, he was shot by mistake during that intervention.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) what is the intervention and between who, do you know that?

MR SHEMBE: As far as I understand what he is saying in Zulu he said, Bheki was not there but somebody had to go and call him from where he called him to say he must reprimand Vusi as maybe I understand, he was becoming violent at that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was becoming violent?

MR SHEMBE: The applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst he was in the shebeen?

MR SHEMBE: Yes, and then he went outside and then when Bheki came to calm him down that’s when he shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so all right.

MR SHEMBE: That’s how I understand it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So then let’s try and see if we can get that from him without putting the words in his mouth. So you were in a shebeen?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) happened after that while you were in the shebeen, did you walk out of the shebeen?

MR HLENGWA: Whilst I was there drinking there was some fight between myself and another boy. We quarreled, I had actually sent him somewhere and I think he was also drunk so we had an argument with him and I hit him. When I hit him the people who were in the house started saying I mustn’t ...(intervention)

MR SHEMBE: These things are recorded, just a little bit slower don’t speak fast.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: There’s a certain man by the name of Sbongeni, I think it’s Sbongeni but I don’t remember his name well, he has since died. I think it was Sbongeni ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: Sbongeni. (spelt)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You had an argument with this boy, you hit him and you were saying that the people of the house ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?

INTERPRETER: He hit this Sbongeni across the face.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say that the people of the house, what did they do?

MR HLENGWA: The people in the house tried to quell the argument, they came in-between us and that’s when I went out together with Sbongeni Sene and he said to me he was tired because I was making him my punch bag. We fought outside the house, I hit him and the people in the house got out of the house and came to intervene. All of them were now attacking me and there were police as well in that house, the ZP Kwa Zulu Police and they actually wanted to assault me. Upon realising that they wanted to hit me I ran to my place, I took my gun. When I took my gun I did not aim to shoot at anyone, I was just taking my gun. I was also shot during that incident when the police wanted to injure me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you, what did you do with your gun?

MR HLENGWA: If I remember well, I don’t know whether I was giving him the gun or I was shooting him. I was very disturbed during that day and I don’t remember some of the details well.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) you said that you had a lot of drinks and you were actually drunk, isn’t that the position.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn’t say that, he didn’t say he was very drunk, all he said was that he was at a shebeen and he was involved in this fight with this man. Then he goes home, he wasn’t so drunk because he went home and went and fetched his gun, isn’t that so?

MR HLENGWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you came back with your gun all of a sudden now you can’t remember whether you actually shot him.

MR HLENGWA: When I came back, Bheki said these words that will never be erased from my mind. Bheki said to me Vusi, you are very drunk, give me the gun. I did not want to give him the gun and he said again Vusi, give the gun to me because you are very drunk and you should go and sleep. If you do not want to give me the gun just shoot me and my mind went into a blank at that stage, I don’t know what happened. He was shot, I think I shot him and he died. The police shot me and I got arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: Yes, they were.

ADV SANDI: Did the police see the gun you had on you before you shot ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: Yes, they did.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: I went into a blank, I only came to and I realised that I had been injured and when I went to the police, as I was still running towards them I heard some gunfire and I turned away and I fell along the road. The police came and arrested me, they also assaulted me and they asked my as to why I had killed Bheki because they were also shocked.

MR SHEMBE: Did you mention to the police that at one stage you suspected him of having a double agenda or double standard?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(not audible)

MR SHEMBE: ...(not audible) that he didn’t, if I can put it in Zulu (Maklambele) double standards. You said Mr Hlengwa, it was an accident the killing of Bheki Zwane, you cannot even explain it. My question is in order for us to be clear, did you also mention that to the police that at one stage you suspected him that he might be selling you to the issue of the death of Masulele Makanja as you have previously said?

MR HLENGWA: I never explained that to the police, I just told them that I killed him and that I was prepared to be arrested and I was prepared to die. They didn’t ask me anything further as well.

MR SHEMBE: Is it correct now that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the death of Bheki because his death was politically motivated?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I have come to ask for amnesty but what I wanted to stress is that my condolences do go out to the families or the relatives of the deceased as well as their families because I really do regret the way in which Masulele died. I do understand that if that could happen to my family, I would also be as distraught as the families of the deceased.

I still feel very sad, even today and I would ask to see the parents of Masulele. I would like to speak to them personally and voice my feelings to them. I don’t have enough words to express the way I feel because Masulele’s death was because of the problems that we were encountering with the UDF.

Had it not been for political differences or for political intolerance, he would not have died in such a manner. I can blame it on politics but I do not say that I’m absolving myself from the instance, I am directly involved and I deeply regret what happened. I still feel very sad, even today.

I do realise that within our own political organisation, we do not know how to conduct ourselves, we lacked proper leaders who had to guide us and tell us as to how we should exercise political tolerance. So at some stage we acted in a manner that could be regarded as purely criminal of which we regret. I personally do regret it now. Even MG Buthelezi and Mandela would not be attacking each other and I don’t know why it happened to us, I think we lacked proper leaders to guide us as to how to exercise political tolerance and how we should conduct ourselves as members of different political groups.

And I do really ask for amnesty. I also want to say to Simiso that I regret that he got injured. I’ve never had an altercation with him, we never had an argument, we never had a fight, I did not know why I actually injured him.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) a charge also that you were convicted of, of possession of the unlicensed firearm, how did you obtain this firearm that you caused these two murders with.

MR HLENGWA: I don’t recall some of the things but I’m just trying to trigger my memory. That is true, I was arrested for possessing an illegal firearm. They got the firearm where I was staying and they arrested me. It was later on discovered that it was something resembling a gun because it was self-made because when it was sent for ballistic tests, they discovered that it was useless.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you had two firearms and the one wasn’t useless because it killed people.

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Your Counsel asked you where did you get these firearms so tell us where did you get it, who gave it to you, did you buy it and if you bought it, from whom did you buy it?

MR HLENGWA: I bought the gun from Tulani Nzama - he was staying at Mkazeni.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you buy that gun?

MR HLENGWA: Immediately after I had been released from detention, I bought the gun.

ADV SANDI: How much did you pay for the gun?

MR HLENGWA: One hundred and fifty rand. I paid one hundred and twenty five rand but the gun was going for one hundred and fifty.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will take an adjournment for fifteen minutes at this stage.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The applicant would like to make a submission as far as Counsel is concerned the death of Mr Zwane ...(inaudible)one, three, four, five and six ...(inaudible) amnesty on count two.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to put to him?

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions I’d like to put to the applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEMBE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, to you knowledge are there any members who are related to his victims who may ...

MR BRINK: Yes, ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

MR BRINK: Mr Makanja is here, that’s the father of deceased. I did have a word with other people next of kin, relatives and so on and the information given to me by the interpreter was that they neither support nor oppose the amnesty applications but they just want to hear the truth come out.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put Mr Brink, to the witness, to the Applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: Yes, please Mr Chairman. I just want to deal firstly with the incident at Rosemary’s house. As I understand it you were convicted of assaulting her and robbing her of this radio, is that the position?

MR HLENGWA: I never took any radio even Rosemary can tell you that I did not, even Mr Mkhize can explain that I did not take the radio.

MR BRINK: Yes, I understand that, I understand what you’re telling me but were you convicted of stealing the radio?

MR HLENGWA: No, I wasn’t.

MR BRINK: In respect of what assault and robbery were you convicted?

MR HLENGWA: I wouldn’t know why they said I assaulted somebody, maybe Rosemary was upset or angry because I kicked the door then she made those allegations but I never did. I was chasing the person I was chasing and I was not attacking her.

MR BRINK: I do want to stop you but I just want to get one thing clear in my mind and the answer is quite simple so please, keep it short Mr Hlengwa. Whether or not you committed those offences, were you convicted of having assaulted her and having taken her radio, were you convicted of those offences?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I think ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: No, I wasn’t.

CHAIRPERSON: We don’t have the information to tell us precisely what the robbery involved.

MR BRINK: That’s what I’m trying to get to.

CHAIRPERSON: We don’t know what the evidence was and what other things were, if anything.

MR BRINK: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

MR BRINK: Listen to me very carefully please Mr Hlengwa, when you appeared in the Regional Court at Uhmlazi, you were convicted of the murder of Mr Makanja, you were convicted culpable homicide relating to the death of Mr Zwane, is that correct?

MR HLENGWA: That is true.

MR BRINK: And you were also convicted of having committed an assault upon someone and also having committed robbery in respect of which you got two years imprisonment. Now what I want to know and the Committee wants to know, who was the victim in the assault case and who did you rob? Can’t you remember?

MR HLENGWA: No, I don’t.

MR BRINK: I didn’t hear the translation.

INTERPRETER: He said he doesn’t remember.

MR BRINK: You don’t remember? You see you’re asking for amnesty in respect of an assault and a robbery, now you have to tell us about that.

CHAIRPERSON: For which he was convicted and sentenced.

MR BRINK: Yes.

MR HLENGWA: I don’t remember that case even in court, I remember only one Makosi Xhosa who was referred to in court because at that time I was confused.

MR BRINK: Do you say that you never committed an assault on any person?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he says he doesn’t remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Brink?

MR HLENGWA: Maybe it is Makosi, I think it is Makosi, I think it’s Makosi Xhosa because I never assaulted Rosemary, I remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn’t there be a possibility of us getting the judgement in this ...

MR BRINK: It was asked for, I don’t know why it was not ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) about the indictment, he’s trying to tell us what each count would be and I don’t think we could really rely on that because he hasn’t got the technical knowledge to say what the counts were and I think before, if possible we should get a copy of the Judgement. That can’t raise any new questions, it should be common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shembe, can’t you throw any light on this?

MR SHEMBE: No, Mr Chairman except only documents that the Commissioners have, that’s all what I have in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HLENGWA: May I speak?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HLENGWA: In court when I was convicted I was convicted with regard to Masulele, Bheki and Simiso as well as pointing a firm arm. I don’t remember any other case that was dealt with on that day. I remember Masulele Makanja’s case, Simiso’s case as well as the possession of an unlicensed firearm. I don’t remember anything with regard to the assault. Maybe if you could get the cassette with regard to the court proceedings.

MR BRINK: All right well, I’ll pass on from that point anyway.

ADV DE JAGER: You see, in the record we’ve got, you actually pleaded guilty to the Count 2, if that was the shooting of Bheki and on Counts 3 and 4 and that was the assault and the robbery so there was evidence led about it I suppose, about the robbery on ...but did Mrs Letuli for instance give evidence at the court?

MR HLENGWA: No, there wasn’t any evidence led with regard to that. I don’t any Mrs Letuli who appeared as a witness but I remember one lady who appeared as a witness when Masulele died, I don’t remember any other witness besides the others that I’ve mentioned. That’s all I remember when I try to recall.

MR BRINK: All right. Now in your application, I’m referring to page 3 of the papers you made mention of Mr Breeze Derick Mtembo having been, oh was not injured, Mr Mtembo was there but you say he was not injured.

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Oh I see, all right. Now as far as Mr Makanja is concerned, had you known him for some time as member or support of UDF?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I did.

MR BRINK: Had you been on friendly terms with him in the past?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I could say we were neighbours and we were friends though not close friends but we were used to each other and we grew up together. We were not particularly close, we attended the same school at some stage. I knew him quite well and I also knew his father.

MR BRINK: When you heard the voices which you identified as those being UDF people at the time your house was attacked, did you recognise the voice of Mr Makanja?

MR HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: I’d rather keep it specific to ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: I do not want to say I heard Makanja’s voice specifically, there were a lot of people talking but whatever they were saying I could identify them as members of the UDF.

MR BRINK: Were you able to identify them as specific people after having heard their voices?

MR HLENGWA: No I was not able to, it was at night and I couldn’t see anyone and there were gunshots.

MR BRINK: Yes, I understand that, I understand that.

MR BRINK: So, you say you heard voices but you identified them as voices of supporters belonging to the UDF?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: And is that because of what they were saying or shouting or whatever at the time?

MR HLENGWA: What I heard was that they were shouting the slogan, kill. They were saying kill Gova, I don’t know what Gova is in English and burnt down the house.

MR BRINK: Was your killing of Mr Makanja a vengeance killing?

MR HLENGWA: When Mr Makanja was killed, yes I could say that I was killing a UDF member because they had also attacked me but I didn’t want to particularly kill Mr Makanja, I just wanted a UDF member, any UDF member that I could lay my hands on I wanted to attack. For instance at some stage I wanted Tabani Mbata as well as Mgulu Leko. Quite a number of them I told myself I would attack whenever I came across them as long as they were UDF members. I wasn’t singling Mr Makanja out.

MR BRINK: I just want to get to the question of your detention under the Emergency Regulations, is it the position that supporters in the main of the UDF would have attained?

MR HLENGWA: Could the speaker repeat the question?

MR BRINK: In regard to your detention, when you were detained you were a supporter of the IFP.

MR HLENGWA: That is true.

MR BRINK: Is it not correct that most detainees were supporters of the UDF?

MR HLENGWA: No, the police were arresting indiscriminately because at some stage we would get together at the prison but the Inkatha members would have their own cell and the UDF members would have another cell.

MR BRINK: Were you questioned while you were in detention?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, there were some detectives from Durban police station.

MR BRINK: And I presume you told them that you were a supporter of the IFP?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I told them but they knew it before I could even tell them because there were certain documents that we filled in when we were arrested, our names as well as our political affiliations.

MR BRINK: And were you detained at CR Swart Police Station?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR BRINK: For the whole period of your detention?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Were you detained alone in solitary confinement or were you with other IFP people in your cell?

MR HLENGWA: I was detained with other people.

MR BRINK: But while you were in detention, were you in a communal cell or were you kept in solitary confinement?

MR HLENGWA: No, I was never in solitary confinement, I was with Bheki Patrick Zwane as well as Agripa, Tembi Nkosi Mkhize, Mshaba Kuswao from Inanda, Jethro Mzizi Shoppe. These are the ones that I still remember, I can’t remember the rest but they were from different areas of Kwa Zulu Natal.

MR BRINK: Thank you very much Mr Hlengwa.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: The attack that led to the killing of Makanja, was that your decision to go there and attack the people?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I could say that it was my decision because I was personally attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: How many days after or how long after your house was attacked?

MR HLENGWA: If I remember well I think it was about after two days. It was after two or three days because I was planning my attack during that stage. I planned the counter-attack and I wanted it to be effective. I saw them as my opponents as the Inkatha members and that they were standing in our way in fighting for freedom.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me ask you a question, as far as you are concerned were the UDF not fighting for freedom?MR HLENGWA: According to me I realised that they were not fighting for freedom as their name doesn’t have the name freedom in it because we were Inkatha Freedom Party I believed that we were fighting for freedom and I do not believe that the members of the UDF were fighting for freedom, I think they were the ones who were standing in our way to freedom.

CHAIRPERSON: What were they fighting for?

MR HLENGWA: Maybe they were fighting for freedom but I just did not realise it at that time, I only came to know it later.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you wish to ask?

ADV SANDI: Let us talk very shortly about your association with the IFP, when did you join the IFP?

MR HLENGWA: From 1988 when I came back from prison. When I came back from prison I realised that there had been a change, there were different political groups with Inkatha on one side as well as UDF on the other side. Thereafter the others explained ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Hlengwa, can you make sure that your answers to our questions are as clear and short as possible and where you can you can even say yes if the answer is yes, you can even say no and try and give us some time to take down notes as you are replying to the questions. When you joined the IFP, did someone come to you to persuade you to join IFP or did you personally go out to ask for membership to the IFP?

MR HLENGWA: Nobody persuaded me but I was forced by the situation where I stayed because where I was staying it was an Inkatha stronghold and my parents were Inkatha members from ...

ADV SANDI: What were you told would be your responsibility as a member of the IFP?

MR HLENGWA: As I’ve explained, we never got any orientation whatsoever because thereafter violence erupted so nobody got orientated as to what our specific duties were. I just told myself that as I was a member of Inkatha, we do not want anybody standing in our way like the UDF did but we never got any specific explanation as to what to do.

ADV SANDI: Can we talk now about the attack on your house and the subsequent killing of Mr Makanja by you, you say on the day your house was attacked you heard what you referred to as UDF voices, can you explain what you meant by that, UDF voices? Do you mean to say that these were specific ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: Yes, UDF members have got their war cries and their slogans that they sing whenever they launch an attack and they’ve got certain names that they call Inkatha by, these are insults. They insult Inkatha in a certain manner, that’s how I got to know that these were members of the UDF.

ADV SANDI: You say after your house was attacked you took a decision that you would just attack and maybe kill anyone who belongs to the UDF. I understand Mr Makanja was not according to you, he was not one of the people who came to attack your house. Why exactly was Mr Makanja killed by you, why did you kill him specifically?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR HLENGWA: To tell you the honest truth, he was a member of the UDF and the fact that he was not specifically there on that particular day to me was not an important factor, I was not gunning for him just members of the UDF. I never had an altercation or a personal verbal altercation with him but because he was a member of the UDF that’s why I wanted him.

ADV SANDI: Now let us talk about the radio, was the radio found in your house?

MR HLENGWA: No, they did not get the radio from my place nor from me. I didn’t even know that there was a radio stolen from Rose’s house, I only heard later on and I spoke to my friend that if he knew the radio he should take the radio out and hand it over to the rightful owner and he duly did that. He came back with the radio and handed it over to Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the name of that friend again please.

MR HLENGWA: Bheki Patrick Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: Would you kindly explain, you told us about an attack, stone throwing between the two groups in the vicinity of the school, can you remember that?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I do.

ADV DE JAGER: During the confrontation there, did you people have somebody sort of in command and who called upon you to go and gather in order to throw the stones or how did you come together and who called on you to come together?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, there is a person who was leading us but he never used to tell us to launch attacks. I don’t remember him telling us but as they youth we used to get together and launch counter-attacks as the youth because we were also being attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have a youth leader there, who was the leader of your group if you had one?

INTERPRETER: There is a certain person by the name of Sheaman but it’s not clear whether it’s the Chairman or the name of the person Sheaman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can clear it up with him. Is Sheaman his name?

MR HLENGWA: I’m referring to the Chairman, the Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: During that violent period, did anyone instruct you or tell you listen, whenever you come across a member of the UDF you should attack him?

MR HLENGWA: No, we used to discuss that as the youth group or youth members, there was no specific person who would give us an instruction or a specific instruction to attack.

ADV DE JAGER: So the youth gathered say on the corner of a street or somewhere and then you decided well we’ll go on the attack?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, we would hold some meetings where we would discuss issues or routes to be followed on that particular day or to launch a counter attack as well as with regard to meting out punishment to ...(inaudible) members of the group and at times we would work in consultation with the Chairman. If I remember very well, at times they would tell us that if you are an Inkatha member, it does not mean that you should kill indiscriminately. They used to give us those motivational talks as well as meting out punishment to certain members of the group.

ADV DE JAGER: You were told sometimes that you shouldn’t kill indiscriminately, is that correct?

MR HLENGWA: No what I was saying is, they said if we are members of Inkatha we shouldn’t just kill.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, you shouldn’t just kill but were you allowed to kill somebody, specific people or a group of people, what did they tell you or what did you decide?

MR HLENGWA: We used to make those decisions all by ourselves that UDF members should be killed because they were also killing us indiscriminately as Inkatha members so we also did the same as a group of youths and we would go and launch an attack. The reason for that was that at times we would be with a certain group and fight against the other members then one member of the group would go out of Inkatha and join the UDF and these were the things that were causing the cracks or the break-up between the two groups.

After killing in one group they would run to the other group so as to escape the retaliation of the next group. As I’ve explained that even from the members of the UDF would cross floors and come to Inkatha members to join the Inkatha group.

ADV SANDI: Mr Hlengwa, as I understand the situation what was happening here as you have put it, there was a conflict between two main political parties and members of those parties or organisations were fighting each other and the youth in particular seemed to have been deeply entangled in this conflict, is that a correct understanding of what was happening here, very briefly yes or no?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I could say that. I could say we were caught in the middle at some stage.

ADV SANDI: Am I correct to understand that anyone of the two groups could just kill a member from the other side even if he had not done anything to him specifically? It was enough if he just ...(intervention)

MR HLENGWA: I do not understand your question.

ADV SANDI: One could be killed simply because he belonged to a political group?

MR HLENGWA: That is correct, if you were a member of a different or opposing political group you would be killed because you are standing in the way of the other group. They were killing Inkatha members because they regarded us as their enemies and we were also killing them because we regarded them as our enemies.

ADV SANDI: And Mr Makanja was a member of the UDF, when did you become aware that Mr Makanja was a member of the UDF?

MR HLENGWA: Yes he was and I got to know that because I used to see him together with members of the UDF, that is the youth of that particular village. He was always amongst the UDF youth just like myself, I was always amongst the Inkatha youth.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of your arrest for these offences, what work were you doing?

MR HLENGWA: At that time I was not working because it was difficult for us to commute from home to work but I was working at the Checkers stores at Dawnside.

CHAIRPERSON: When last was it that you worked at Checkers store?

MR HLENGWA: I last worked immediately after I was released from detention.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR HLENGWA: It was in 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you work at Checkers?

MR HLENGWA: I didn’t work for a long time because there was a violence and there was a stronghold for UDF members and they would come and check if there were Inkatha supporters nearby.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is for how long you worked, that’s all. For how long did you work?

MR HLENGWA: I think I worked there for three weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: After that did you work for anybody else?

MR HLENGWA: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: For who?

MR HLENGWA: In Rosebank. I was working for Mr Haka in Rosebank, we were making furniture, lounge suites and bedroom suites and it was in 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was, after you worked for checkers did you work for anybody else?

MR HLENGWA: After I left Checkers, I never worked and I couldn’t find any job because the situation was bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shembe, any re-examination?

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don’t have any re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHEMBE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you can move off from that chair now.

MR HLENGWA: There is something I would like to ask. I would like to repeat these words again to the next of kin of Mr Makanja and Mr Simiso, I’ve just forgotten his last name, I would like to say I don’t know how I can take this back and I would like them to look deep down in their hearts and find forgiveness because this thing is really killing me. I don’t have reasons and excuses, I don’t know how to put this to them for them to at least find it in their heart to forgive me. If it wasn’t because of Inkatha and UDF violence, Mr Makanja would still be alive and we were not able to sit of talk, instead we preferred violence and I would like them to forgive me.

I don’t like the way he was killed because he was from a funeral to bury his brother and then he died and when I think of these things and I put myself in Mr Makanja’s family’s shoes, I realise that I can’t bear it myself and I feel for his family. I also thank God that he didn’t die and his wife didn’t die in that situation. I feel a great deal of remorse. I don’t know how to explain this thing except to say I ask for their forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HLENGWA: There is one other thing which I would like to express and that is that I am prepared to work this sentence in jail and also I’m prepared to work hand in hand with other people who want reconciliation. That’s all I have to say and I also ask God to forgive me as well as Mr Makanja’s ancestors and Mr Simiso. That’s all I have to say.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right. Yes, thank you. Mr Shembe are you calling any other witnesses?

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you propose calling any witnesses?

MR BRINK: No, I don’t thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: None of the victims present that want to say something?

CHAIRPERSON: There will be indicated to you Mr Brink, their attitude?

MR BRINK: Yes, they have but it may be as well, having heard the Applicant’s evidence they may wish to address the Committee and I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: I will stand down for a short while for you to find out whether members of the family would like to say anything. You will call us as soon as you are ready?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: During the short adjournment Mr Makanja and Mr Msomi who was injured in one of the attacks have indicated to me that they wanted to speak to the Applicant and they have done so and other members of the family will do so after the Committee adjourns but none of them will be giving evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shembe, you have an opportunity to address us if you desire to do so.

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Mr Chairman, on the instructions of the Applicant, the Applicant has instructed me to pass his remorse to the members of the family of the victims to say the way he is so remorseful it’s more than words can explain and to the Honourable Commissioner to say whatever he has said to this Honourable Commission today, it was not through the influence or imposition of any person on him to say come today,

let the world know what happened and why did that happen. As far as the killing or the death of Mr Makanja it has been clearly stated by the Applicant before this Commission that there was no personal vendetta per say between the Applicant and the deceased but the political misunderstanding which led them to resolve their differences through the barrel of the gun instead through negotiation around the table.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: That him and the deceased to end up being, the other one being the victim, the other one being the killer to have murdered Mr Makanja. Other than that they grew up together as during the adjournment the father has stated that he took both of them, his son the deceased together with the Applicant as his own sons or as his own children so it is clear before this Honourable Commission that there was nothing personal between the Applicant and the deceased, only the political difference which would have been addressed, had according to the words of the Applicant, been given the guidance from their leadership including the Chairman as he has specifically said that there was a person who was the Chairman from whom they were expecting to get the guidance as to what is the way for what, only to find that they only took their independent decisions around the street corners whereby each member of the political organisation took his own initiative without having been directed by any member of his or any senior of his political organisation to say go and kill so and so.

More than that the Honourable Commissioners, the vengeance that was there in the Applicant was aggravated by the attack that had happened to his homestead the previous two days before that. That was a blanket activity which did not specifically target any individual person but directed against the members of the UDF.

The acquisition of the firearms that the Applicant had, he had explained to them how he acquired them, that he bought them from a certain person and he mentioned his name for the sole purpose that because they are being attacked he cannot on his own sit idle and look his home being gutted down. On his own accord he went to acquire the firearm illegally for the sole purpose of defending his homestead.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: If the Commissioner can bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: 22 April 1990 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Further than that, the other offences ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let’s just pause there. When did he say he acquired this firearm?

MR SHEMBE: Though I may not be correct Mr Chairman but somewhere immediately after he was released from incarceration, that was in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: Before that Mr Chairman, there were other numerous attacks which are not relevant to the situation for which the Applicant is before this Honourable Commission today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the firearm was obtained to avenge this particular incident, the firearm was obtained because ...(inaudible) feeling of insecurity because of other trouble?

MR SHEMBE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: But he acquired two firearms as far as I can recollect, the one before the attack on the house and one immediately after the attack.

MR SHEMBE: That is correct Mr Chairman. To elaborate on that and to emphasise in that in the words of the sentencing Magistrate, he conceded that their was a climate at that time and it was accepted that there was a climate of violence in the area meaning that there were - between the two warring factions, that is the UDF and the IFP and then it happened that Mr Hlengwa was one of these parties.

Coming to the other offences Commissioners, that the Applicant is facing he’s also so remorseful to them to such an extent that if his heart can be opened it can be shown that he regrets to the last inch of his heart and he would like to extend his apologies to the members of the family and to victims who suffered those atrocities, from the bottom of his heart.

There’s nothing more than that he can do and further than that he instructed me to say whatever the community would require him to do should this Commission deem it necessary and fit for him to be granted amnesty, he would be prepared to serve at any role which would facilitate the bringing about of peace in the area where he comes from.

Not unless my Honourable Commissioners, you want me to address on specific issues, those are my instructions and my humble request from the Applicant to submit to you, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Simiso was in fact injured on the same occasion when Makanja was killed, was part of the same attack.

MR SHEMBE: That is correct Sir, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an occasion to look at the Act?

MR SHEMBE: I had the occasion to look at the Act Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: From what I understand the position this is a revenge killing. As a result of his house being attacked he made up his mind that he was going to kill whoever he could lay his hands on, it just happened that the deceased was the one who got killed. What was the political objective?

MR SHEMBE: The political objective Mr Chairman, was that the attack from the UDF shouldn’t be a recurring thing on the side of the IFP, they should also be aware that they can defend themselves though it happened that Mr Hlengwa took the initiative to be the one who did the attacking but it was a political thing as he has correctly stated that in the attack on his homestead, they were chanting the slogan that Gova and stuff like that, that were insulting on the side of the IFP by the UDF. More than being a revenge killing Mr Chairman, it has a political ... that whilst they were doing the attack, they were not saying we want to kill Mr Hlengwa but they were saying the slogans that are insulting on my organisation as Mr Hlengwa by the opponent.

ADV SANDI: Mr Shembe, we have not received any evidence of Mr Makanja in particular having been involved or can I say, actively involved in these attacks, why him particularly?

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Sir. It was not Mr Makanja particularly, anyone who could have been found - who could have - when Mr Hlengwa entered the house who could have been in front of him in that area of the UDF might have received the death as might occasioned, might have occasioned the death the way in which Makanja occasioned the death. He didn’t go out across the area of the UDF in order to target Mr Makanja per say but anyone who was going to be in front of him as he entered the door, he could have been fired on.

ADV SANDI: I do not intend to take this any further but can I say Mr Makanja, was it accidental that he was shot, he was the intended target, do you mean to say that it was just accident.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn’t. He went there to kill any UDF man ...(inaudible)

MR SHEMBE: There was intention to kill any UDF member but not any specific person, individual person to say I would like to go and kill specifically Mr Shembe, if I don’t find him I won’t kill anyone so but we are the group of UDF supporters in this area so anyone whom I’m going to find in this area, I’m going to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else you wish to add?

MR SHEMBE: No Mr Chairman, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, is there anything you wish to say?

MR BRINK: Very briefly Mr Chairman, I think one must accept that at the time there was an enormous amount of political upheaval and an enormous amount of conflict with houses being burnt down and vengeance burning downs and killings and vengeance killings and again vengeance killings, it just went on interminably so I think one can accept that the Applicant had a vague political motive, whether it gets over the questions of revenge is another matter which does concern me but in general I do think that having regard to what was going on in the townships at the time, having regard to the appalling loss of life and the appalling damage to property that the IFP would go on a rampage against the UDF and visa versa. This was just going on in this Province particularly.

Those are really the only submissions I can make, you’ve heard the evidence so I think that the Applicant, although somewhat longwinded going into detail, one can understand his situation. He’s not a very sophisticated person and I got the impression that I think he was doing his best to tell the truth and of course as you know, the mere fact that he shows remorse is not a criteria for the purpose of amnesty but nonetheless, it’s very healthy in the spirit of reconciliation to see the next of kin and the Applicant endeavouring to reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will make it’s decision known in due course, thank you.

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) there are no other matters for this Committee to hear?

MR BRINK: No, there are not Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(Inaudible)

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS