Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: Yes Mr Chairman I may indicate that the matter that should have been heard first today that is the application of Sandile Manana I explained to you Mr Chairman in chambers what the situation is here. Apparently this applicant as fairly recently paroled. Steps have been taken to ascertain his whereabouts to advise him but whether he will arrive today is another matter. In which event I suggest the matter be removed from the roll and I believe reading the papers that is a matter that could be decided in chambers in any event.

As far as the application of Mr Mthembu and Mr Ngobese are concerned both applicants are present. Notices have been given to all interested parties. I understand from the logistics officer that next-of-kin have decided not to attend although they oppose the application they will not be present.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Manana is removed from the roll Mr Brink you will take on the responsibility to ensure that the matter is taken to its logical conclusion.

MR BRINK: I will indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether in chambers or some other way.

MR BRINK: I will indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk do you appear in these matters of Mthembu and Ngobese?

MR DE KLERK: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For both of them?

MR DE KLERK: For both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: I will call the first applicant, Mr Mthembu.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr de Klerk.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mthembu is it correct that you were born on the 11th of September 1970 in the Mapumulu district that is close to Stanger?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: The area that you grew up.

MR MTHEMBU: Traditional way.

MR DE KLERK: Did you grow up in a traditional way or did you grow up in an urban area?

MR DE KLERK: Did you grow up with the normal values by that I mean you believed in your forefathers, there was traditional structures like nkozis, indunas, tribal policemen and so forth?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. It is true.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Mthembu did you go to school?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: To which level?

MR MTHEMBU: Std 9.

MR DE KLERK: You are here today to apply for amnesty for the matter that happened on the 24th of August in the Qamba Mapumulu area is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Can you please tell the Commission what happened in your own words on the 24th of August 1991 at Qamba Mapumulu?

MR MTHEMBU: It was on Saturday. We attended a ceremony. It is a ceremony where the father of a girl makes a feast to say thank you to his daughter for behaving herself during her teens until she grew up. It is also, in someway, to tell his daughter that she is now old enough to have a boyfriend. I was with my friend Mthembu who was wearing an IFP t-shirt. As we were dancing there, we heard someone mentioning the word "uklova" which is a derogatory word referring to IFP supporters. We ignore this because it was not directed specifically at a certain person. After dancing outside, we went into the kraal of our host. It is customary that the dancing usually takes place outside before people get into the host's kraal to eat and drink.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that. Just pronounce that word again.

INTERPRETER: Uklova

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

[INTERPRETER: U K L O V A

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?

[INTERPRETER: [inaudible]

MR MTHEMBU: It does not have a meaning. It is a derogatory word referring to IFP supporters.

MR DE KLERK: Okay you were at this gathering when you finished with this feast what happened?

MR MTHEMBU: As we were not people from the area, there is a custom the visitors have to perform. For example, if a boy from your area has a girlfriend in the area you are visiting, it is customary for that girl to take care of you. She has to bring you something to eat or drink, because she regards all of you, visitors,as in-laws. When we were in the kraal, we were then given some drinks. After drinking we left the kraal on our way home. There were five of us. As we were walking in the path, we saw people in another path. Although it was late, it was still light. Because of the intake of drinks, we were singing and were in a very jolly mood. We then heard these people shouting, asking who were the people making a noise there. They then started using swearing words, and later said, "Oh, it is these klovas." Mshengu, my uncle Kikiza and myself then decided to approach these people, to find out from them why they were swearing at us. These people had fighting sticks, and were very aggressive towards us. They were in a fighting mood. My co-accused and my uncle then started stabbing these people.

MR DE KLERK: Okay.

MR MTHEMBU: One ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MTHEMBU: The other one fell on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand where was this function being held?

INTERPRETER: The function was held outside the ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see. And then when everybody dispersed the people went from outside the house?

INTERPRETER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you carry on.

MR MTHEMBU: After we stabbed them...

CHAIRPERSON: How many people did they stab?

MR MTHEMBU: They stabbed two people.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you do that? Was there a decision made? What was the reason for this attack? What did you try to achieve?

MR MTHEMBU: These people had called us names, and we realised that these were ANC supporters because they are the only people who call us by these names. Because they were also aggressive, that is the reason that is the reason they were stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened after they were stabbed?

MR MTHEMBU: One of them fell on the ground there, and the other one retreated and managed to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: This incident what did you try to achieve politically?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he hasn't said he was trying to achieve anything politically. You know I man he hasn't mentioned the word politics. I think in fairness you can ask him what he was trying to achieve, what was he.

MR DE KLERK: As it please I will ask it in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Can you just explain what would you have gained, you and your fellow applicant and your uncle - what would you have gained by killing these people?

CHAIRPERSON: By the way he hasn't said. They stabbed two people, one fell and one ran away or retreated. Now I think we had better just take that to its logical conclusion. Were those people that were stabbed did they die? Do they know that they died? I think you should clear that up.

MR DE KLERK: As it pleases Mr Chair. Do you know what happened to the people that were stabbed?

MR MTHEMBU: I know the one who fell eventually died.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know his name?

MR MTHEMBU: I know his name now. He is Siza Enoch Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he died there at the spot where he was stabbed?

MR MTHEMBU: He died on the spot.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to the other person?

MR MTHEMBU: The one who was with Siza?

CHAIRPERSON: You see I get the picture there were three of them. You said there were three of them. Two of them were stabbed. One of those who were stabbed fell. The other retreated and ran away. I don't know whether the one who ran away was also stabbed. And you haven't told us what happened to the third person.

MR MTHEMBU: No, there were only two there.

CHAIRPERSON: There were just two of them?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. Two.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Thank you. So now what happened to the second one? Was he also stabbed, the one who ran away?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. He was also stabbed.

MR DE KLERK: It seems according to the charge sheet that the first count of murder was that of Siza Enoch Nxele.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And then there was a charge of attempted murder of Mdikilwana Mkhezi.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And then there was a third count of murder, Elizabeth Zondiwe Khumalo, a female.

MR MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR DE KLERK: Can you tell the Commission what happened to Mdikilwana Mkhezi, the attempted murder charge?

MR MTHEMBU: Mdikivana Mkhize is the one who was also stabbed and managed to run away.

MR DE KLERK: Yes and Elizabeth Zondiwe Khumalo?

MR MTHEMBU: It means I am leaving the first scene. We proceeded on our way home.

CHAIRPERSON: This was after the stabbing of the other two?

MR MTHEMBU: yes. On our way, we agreed that, because we knew that in our area, there is someone who was not going along with the IFP, we were going to take her out because we had already killed a person.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MTHEMBU: He/she was not an IFP supporter.

MR DE KLERK: Why? What made her special? For what reason did you choose her?

MR MTHEMBU: In our area, or in KwaZulu Natal, there was a law that when one owns dogs, one had to pay dog tax for them. This person was one of the people who did not want to go along with this law. He/she was even saying that the reason why we were paying this tax is because we were ruled be the IFP led government in KwaZulu-Natal. Let me also say this person was not born and bred in our area. She just came there to wed. I heard that she was from the South Coast, at uMzimkhulu.

MR DE KLERK: In what capacity? What did she do?

MR MTHEMBU: We then went to her place. My uncle, Kikiza, who was present when this decision was taken, did not go with us to Khumalo's place where we went to kill. I was accompanied by Mshengu, and a small Khumalo boy who was accompanying us. He was not from the same Khumalo house where we went. The reason why my uncle did not accompany us is because he had taken one of us - as I said that we were five - home because that person was more drunk than us. My uncle's house is also in the direction where this accompanied person was going to. This person would have been surprised if my uncle did not go with him because these people did not know anything about what we planned. We had kept this as our secret.This small boy did also not know everything. Let me also add that this Khumalo woman did not like the IFP t-shirts. She used to say that she could get people from somewhere to come and put a stop to all this IFP thing.

MR DE KLERK: Well you now identified her as somebody that must be taken out. What happened?

MR MTHEMBU: We planned to go...

MR DE KLERK: What did you do? Did you go to her? What happened?

CHAIRPERSON: After you decided that she had to be taken out whatever that may mean, what did you do?

MR MTHEMBU: We went to her house.

CHAIRPERSON: I think all this was in response to a question about what did you do after you had made up your mind you were going to remove her what did you do?

MR MTHEMBU: We went there. I had a home made firearm, and when we arrived there, we first wanted to see whether the boy was staying there, who could be a problem, was there. We went to his hut and found that he was not there. We then kicked the door of the hut this woman was sleeping in, and because there was moonlight, she got out of bed. I could see through the moonlight where she was, and then I shot her. Mshengu, my co-accused, then finished her off with a knife.

MR DE KLERK: Yes what happened then?

MR MTHEMBU: Because we had finished the job that we came there for, we then left.

MR DE KLERK: What did you want to achieve by killing these people? That means the first incident and now the second one. What was your objective?

MR MTHEMBU: In that area, IFP has a stronghold. So, when we saw people like the ANC emerging, and would be a problem in the area, and might also grow to become more stronger in the area than the IFP, we thought it is a good idea to get rid of these people very soon.

MR DE KLERK: How old were you at that stage when this incident took place?

MR MTHEMBU: I was twenty.

MR DE KLERK: And to which political party were you affiliated to?

MR MTHEMBU: IFP.

MR DE KLERK: Were you a normal card-carrying member of the IFP? Were you a leader? Did you have?

MR MTHEMBU: I am a card carrying member. I am not a leader.

MR DE KLERK: When you decided (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He says in his application in answer to question number 7 a. that he was an IFP supporter.

MR DE KLERK: Supporter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Did you ever receive an order? Did somebody tell you that it will be a good thing to go and eliminate people? Kill them? Why then did you make this decision now to go and kill the people if you did not receive orders?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not receive any instructions. Just because I liked my party and feared that it would perish one day. and because of this threat by this woman that she would go and get people from outside the area to come and put a stop to all this, it means to get rid of the party, the people belonging to that party needed to be killed. There was therefore no reason for me to wait and get instructions. I did it because I realised that danger was imminent.

MR DE KLERK: What was the position of the area of Mapumulu in August 1991? Was there peace in that area?

MR MTHEMBU: It was peaceful. There was no turmoil.

MR DE KLERK: Just explain to us? Did you say there was no turmoil in that area?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that because this was an IFP controlled area?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: How do you feel about it? Are you sorry about what happened? How do you feel? What you have done.

MR MTHEMBU: What happened is not nice, because people died. I am sorry about it, because I have also lost my education. I know that there are children who find it difficult now to be brought up without their parents.

MR DE KLERK: What do you want to say to the families of the deceased?

MR MTHEMBU: I ask them to forgive me.

MR DE KLERK: Just one moment Mr Chairman. Just one explanation. What does the word "Nglova" means? That is now the word that you were called? The name that you were called by the people?

MR MTHEMBU: I do not know its meaning.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ME DE KLERK: .

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence Siza Nxele was stabbed by your co-accused and your uncle. Is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application form you say in answer to the question where you are required to give details about the political objective and the nature and particulars of your crime you said, this is paragraph 9 a. sub-paragraph 4

"I killed Siza Nxele and Zondiwe Khumalo."

MR MTHEMBU: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you kill Nxele?

MR MTHEMBU: In fact, I did not kill him with my bear hands.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you say here that you killed him?

MR MTHEMBU: It is because the court decided to sentence me in connection with this case. I would not blame the court, however, because it was found that I was present when he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: Yes thank you Mr Chairman I won't be long. Mr Mthembu you have told the Committee that Mapumulu and indeed most of the rural area. Leave your microphone off until you are ready to answer the question because you are cutting me off. You told the Committee that Mapumulu was very strongly IFP. That it was predominantly IFP.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: And so the ANC obviously posed no real threat to IFP supporters in the Mapumulu area.

MR MTHEMBU: It was eventually going to pose a problem if we allowed it to grow in the area.

MR BRINK: Yes but you told the Committee that prior to this event there had been no - to use your words, no turmoil in the area?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: So there hadn't been any problems, serious problems between the IFP and the ANC prior to these murders?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: Now let's go back to the celebration, the celebratory gathering which you attended. Was liquor served?

MR MTHEMBU: Some of us did drink liquor.

MR BRINK: Do you remember what sort of alcohol? Was it beer, spirits, wine?

MR MTHEMBU: There were spirits, beer and some cold drinks.

MR BRINK: Did you drink spirits?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Did you drink beer?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: What did you drink?

MR MTHEMBU: I drank cold drinks.

MR BRINK: Can you describe to me because I am afraid I am ignorant of it what is the nature of this Sinsinijonjo about which you spoke?

MR MTHEMBU: As I said, if you are visitors at a certain place, a girl that has a boyfriend in your area regard you as in-laws. She then has to provide you with some drinks so that you can report back home that you did not starve where you had visited because this girl has taken care of you.

MR BRINK: Yes all I really want to know is, is this Sinsinijonjo is that a drink itself? And if so what sort of drink? That is all I want to know.

MR MTHEMBU: No, "njonjo" is only the provision of drinks.

MR BRINK: Now what sort of drink is that?

MR MTHEMBU: She provides any type of drink that we ask.

MR BRINK: Did you have any alcoholic drinks?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Did your uncle?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: Was he under the influence of liquor?

MR MTHEMBU: He was not drunk but he had been drinking.

MR BRINK: Well I am not suggesting he was drunk. I am asking whether he was under the influence of liquor?

MR MTHEMBU: He had been drinking but he was not under the influence of liquor to that extent it would let him fall down.

MR BRINK: No was Mshanga Ngobese under the influence of liquor? That is your co-applicant?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Now you tell the Committee walking down the street and you apparently came across two or three people who were on a minor road. Do you remember that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. They were two.

MR BRINK: Were they strangers to you?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not know them.

MR BRINK: So you couldn't say whether they were ANC or IFP?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not know whether they were IFP or ANC supporters.

MR BRINK: I am sorry I missed that. Did you say you did or didn't know?

MR MTHEMBU: I did not.

MR BRINK: Sorry I still didn't hear that interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: The interpreter. Please interpret, did he say he did or did not?

INTERPRETER: He said he did not.

CHAIRPERSON: That is much better thank you.

MR BRINK: So they were slaughtered?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They used a word which you don't even know what it meant.

MR MTHEMBU: No. It is because of the words that they used that made us believe what type of people they are.

MR BRINK: This word "Nkoba" was also used according. Please leave your microphone until you are ready to answer because you are cutting me off you see. This word "Nkoba" was according to your evidence also used at this happy gathering which you had attended earlier and that didn't appear to cause any trouble?

MR MTHEMBU: Although I did not know what the meaning of the word is, I knew that this is a derogatory word used to demean the IFP supporters. This is not the only word they used. There are other names they used, and I remember mentioning some of the words they used in my amnesty application form.

MR BRINK: And it didn't cause any trouble?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. It was used there.

MR BRINK: Now finally I just want to get on to this Ms Khumalo. You say she was opposed to this dog tax?

MR MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR BRINK: Is it possible that members of the IFP or some members of the IFP might also have been opposed to a dog tax?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: But opposition to the dog tax isn't necessarily a political thing surely? It is a democratic right.

MR MTHEMBU: I cannot say. I can just guess.

MR BRINK: And because of that you went to her house, kicked open her door, shot her and she was stabbed and then you went home?

MR MTHEMBU: Even if that is the case, what she highlighted is that the reason why we had to pay this dog tax was because it was levied by the KwaZulu Government led by the IFP. That is when we realised that she did not want IFP.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK: .

ADV MALAN: Mr Mthembu in your evidence you said that when you went to Mrs Khumalo's house you first looked for her son to see whether he was around so that you would not be disturbed. Had you found him would you have killed him?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

ADV MALAN: What would you have done?

MR MTHEMBU: It would mean we would have to arrange another day, when he is not present.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Chairman I have no question.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application form there appears the following sentence. After you have talked about Mrs Khumalo she was a xhosa speaking and that Xhosas and the Zulus were always in conflict. You recall saying that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: "And this caused rivalry between the ANC and the IFP." Did you say that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes. I was explaining that it was initially believed that the IFP was for the IFP was for ZULUs, whereas the ANC was for Xhosas.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said: "And this caused rivalry between the ANC and the IFP." Did you say that?

MR MTHEMBU: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Why you said that there was no turmoil in Mapumulu?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Despite that in your application form you conclude by saying

"I then decided to remove all ANC supporters from society even though nobody gave me orders to do so."

Did you say that?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No further questions thank you. Mr de Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: I have no further questions from my side. That is the evidence for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much. You may move from there.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED: .

MR DE KLERK: The next applicant is Mr Ngobese.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr de Klerk.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese is it correct that you were born on the 23rd of March 1971 in the Qamba Mapumulu area?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Did you ever go to school?

MR NGOBESE: No.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that you are a supporter and card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: You have listened to the first applicant, Mr Mthembu he explained what happened. Do you agree with what he has said?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Without explaining to us what happened at the traditional party or feast but just by starting when you met the first group of people that was attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: After the feast was over and when you were on your way back home.

MR DE KLERK: What happened?

MR NGOBESE: As I was wearing the IFP t-shirt, I heard a person asking a general question at the feast, whether the people in the whole area are now "klovas". I did not take note of this because there were many people say. When we left this kraal, we saw people in the sugar cane field. When these people uttered the same word, I realised that it was referred to us. These people said, "Hey, you klovas." My co-accused's uncle then suggested that we approach these people, to find out from them why they refer us to klovas. Nimrod his uncle and myself then approached these people. These people seemed to be very aggressive and because we do not have fighting sticks and they had some, they thought we could not do anything to them. We injured these people. Two of them got seriously injured and one even died. The other one ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes because we haven't heard the translation yet at all of what he has been saying.

MR NGOBESE: We injured these people.

MR DE KLERK: Yes go ahead?

MR NGOBESE: The other one ran away.

MR DE KLERK: Yes you can go ahead what happened then?

MR NGOBESE: No we were leaving, we decided amongst the three of that, because we had already done something wrong, there would be no reason for us to stop now. Because we all knew the person in the area who did not want to agree with us, we decided to go to that person. I am the one that knew that her husband was not there as he was working here in Durban. There eldest son...

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, just hold it. I think that we have got to help this witness to give his story in a sequential way. He has some difficulty in that regard. Let me help you. First of all who is Nimrod?

MR NGOBESE: Nimrod is my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: And his uncle, what is his name?

MR NGOBESE: His uncle is Mtitiza.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these two chaps that were attacked by your group is it correct what the first applicant has said that you and the first applicant's uncle stabbed two of those people. One of whom fell and died. And the other ran away?

MR NGOBESE: Yes that is true, although I had not realised then that as he was falling, he would die there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who stabbed him? Did you stab him or did the uncle of the accused number one?

MR NGOBESE: I am the one who stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were armed with a knife?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And accused number one's uncle was also armed with a knife?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person that ran away did you stab him as well?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, we also stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were just two of them and there were five of you at the time?

MR NGOBESE: I cannot say that all five of us had knives.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am saying that there were five of you at the time and there were two of them whom you attacked, is it?

MR NGOBESE: Yes. I saw two people there.

CHAIRPERSON: After the man fell to the ground did you bother to go to him to see whether he was dying?

MR NGOBESE: It was difficult for me to have a look after he fell.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it difficult?

MR NGOBESE: I do not think that there is a reason for me to look at a person I had already stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I see so you now left that scene and you were now on the main road going towards your house.

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant number one's uncle was helping along the other gentleman with you who was drunk.

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the fifth person?

MR NGOBESE: I was not acquainted so much to this other person who was with us, the one who was drunk. The young boy's surname is Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: So was there at some stage when the uncle of the first applicant and his friend went in a different direction from where you went?

MR NGOBESE: They went to the other direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they go in the direction of the house of the uncle?

MR NGOBESE: (...no english translation)

CHAIRPERSON: And then where did you go to?

MR NGOBESE: I took my direction with Nimrod and this Khumalo boy.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened along the road to your house?

MR NGOBESE: We went to Khumalo after we decided to go and attack there. We decided to do this on our way, after we attacked the first two people.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that decided?

MR NGOBESE: As we were walking along.

CHAIRPERSON: What had you decided?

MR NGOBESE: We had decided to go and kill Zondiwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR NGOBESE: Zondiwe Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did she live?

MR NGOBESE: She was my neighbour.

CHAIRPERSON: Had she been a neighbour for a long time?

MR NGOBESE: I cannot say for how long, because she arrived there after she got married. I also once stayed here in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So you decided that you are going to kill her and so what did you do thereafter?

MR NGOBESE: After we parted with Mkitiza and the other person, we proceeded to Khumalo's house. I knew then that their son was not present as he had gone to visit his father in Durban. The only other family members present were the females, and we knew that those people would not pose any problems to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

MR NGOBESE: We found that her son was not in.

CHAIRPERSON: And when the son was not there what happened?

MR NGOBESE: I kicked the door and because there was moonlight, we saw her getting out of her bed. She was wearing a night dress. She then asked us what was wrong and we did not reply. Mthembu just shot her.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR NGOBESE: After he shot her, I then stabbed her.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you stab her?

MR NGOBESE: I stabbed her randomly on her body.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times?

MR NGOBESE: I cannot remember how many times I stabbed her, but we intended to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: There was nobody else in the room at the time?

MR NGOBESE: She was alone in that hut.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened after that?

MR NGOBESE: We thereafter left because we had completed what we intended doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Your companion, the applicant number one says that in the Mpumalanga area which was an IFP area there was no turmoil. Do you agree with that?

MR NGOBESE: Yes. There was no turmoil because the area was an IFP stronghold. We however realised that things would start going wrong because we had heard that the ANC branch was going to be opened in Sivukile School. We knew that there would be trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this area Vukile?

MR NGOBESE: This school is in Maphumulo. I think it is a High School.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that far from your home?

MR NGOBESE: It is not very far from my place. It is walking distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk is there anything else you want to clear up?

MR DE KLERK: Just another two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Can you just explain to us what was your objective and justification for killing these people? That is now the first attack or the first incident and now the second one of Ms Khumalo?

MR NGOBESE: I am a person that believes that unity can only be achieved when all belong to one political party. There would be no unity if we split and that is why I thought that we could not allow other people to belong to another party that opposes ours. That is why we took such decisions to eliminate.

CHAIRPERSON: By eliminate you mean kill?

MR NGOBESE: Yes. I knew if we belonged to different parties we will kill each other.

MR DE KLERK: You have now been convicted of these murders. You have been in prison for quite a while. You had a lot of time to think about it. Is there anything you want to say to the families of these deceased and to the Commission about what you have done?

MR NGOBESE: Yes. I am really sorry for what I did. i ask them to forgive me because I realise that I was just childish to do all these things. I am an adult now and realise that I was doing wrong. I was still 18 then and immature. An 18 year old cannot think or act like a 20 year or a 26 year old person.

MR DE KLERK: Is there anything you want to say to the families of the deceased?

MR NGOBESE: To the families, I say I am very sorry about the deceased. I also ask the Maphumulo community at large to pardon me, and to all the leaders of the area, I say I am sorry for what I did.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK: .

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) any questions you wish to put?

MR BRINK: Very briefly Mr Chairman. Did you have any personal knowledge of Mrs Khumalo's political activities if any?

MR NGOBESE: I cannot say in which party did she belong. What she used to do, however, is to criticise whenever I was wearing anything that I had to do with the IFP. I am the person who like to wear IFP clothes. I then thought that the reason why she was critical about this is because she just came there because of her marriage to the person in the area. She therefor wanted us to adopt what they were doing in the area. She therefore wanted us to adopt what they were doing in the area where she came from.

MR BRINK: But she had been a neighbour of yours and had never done you any harm?

MR NGOBESE: She was my neighbour and there was no animosity between us.

MR BRINK: Tell me Mr Ngobese had you had liquor on that day?

MR NGOBESE: I am not a drinker.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: You may move from there to your seat.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk are you calling any other witnesses?

MR DE KLERK: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No I am not calling witnesses Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you wish to say on the evidence Mr de Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: Nothing further to address the Commission.

MR BRINK: I have no submissions to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well in the light of the fact that counsel have no submissions to make on the evidence that we have heard that brings the proceedings in this application to an end. The Committee will consider these applications and in due course make its decisions known to the applicants and to the dependents.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS