Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: ... is sitting here, but it was unavoidable. Before we commence, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right we have Mrs Acting Justice Khampepe of the Cape Division now. On my far left is Mr Jake Moloi, who is an attorney in Pretoria. He's the State Attorney there. On my immediate left is Mr Johnny Motata, who is an advocate from Johannesburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, a Judge attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court. I'd like the legal representatives please, at this stage, to place themselves on record for this portion of the hearing.

MR MAGADI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, my name is Sheldon Magadi from the Campus Law Clinic, together with Advocate Angus Stewart from the Durban Bar. We represent Mr Daluxolo Luthuli, Mr Bhekiza Alex Khumalo and Mr David Zweli Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Committee members. I am John Wills, an attorney from Pietermaritzburg. I represent the applicants R M Mbambo, B G Mkhize, I N Hlongwane and B B Ndlovu.

MR NTULI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is Obed Ntuli. I'm an attorney from Nelspruit representing the family of Theledi, victims of the applicant who will be heard just now. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. J M Mpshe for the TRC.

MR MULLER: Mr Chairman, my name is Kobus Muller. I'm an attorney from Pretoria, from the firm Wagner Muller. I'm representing Mr Funani Mthethwa who is an implicated person.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is Jeff Hewitt. I am senior counsel from Durban and I am instructed by Mr Patrick Falconer, an attorney of Durban, and we represent in these proceedings various implicated persons whom the applicants have and will continue to implicated in these proceedings.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is Konraad Swanepoel. I'm an advocate from Pretoria on instruction of Mr Chris van Heyde, an attorney from Pretoria. I represent several implicated persons in these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, the proceedings will be translated, I'm told, into English and Zulu. Channel two (2) is English and channel three (3) is the Zulu interpretation on these little machines.

This afternoon we will be hearing, I'm told, the evidence of one of the applicants, Mr Mbambo with regard to an incident which took place in the Bushbuck Ridge area. Mr Mbambo, together with the other applicants in this matter, the other number of applicants in this matter, have all given evidence previous to today. This hearing has commenced some time ago, I think it was in March of this year when we sat in Durban and we heard about incidents that occurred in the Durban area. And then from Durban we moved up and we sat for a couple of weeks in Richards Bay where we heard further evidence as to occurrences which occurred in that region. And then last month we moved down to the Hammarsdale area where we had another hearing, where we heard about incidents that occurred there. And then of this whole application, this is the last leg of it, as it were, where not all the applicants are involved, but only two of them. Mr Mbambo and Mr Hlongwane will be testifying as to incidents which occurred in this area, as well as the one incident which occurred in the Bushbuck Ridge area. So, we'll now commence with Mr Mbambo's evidence. Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, I know from before, you don't have any objection to taking the oath.

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: (Sworn States)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that was my fault for not switching off.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I commence? Yes. Mr Chairperson, for the record, the evidence that this applicant will be leading this afternoon is contained in his affidavit commencing at paragraph ninety four (94), which appears on page forty two (42) of Volume one (1). For the benefit of members of the public, we will be briefly looking at his background which will summarise the first section of his affidavit. Mr Mbambo, you've been a loyal supporter of the, initially Inkatha Movement and later than that the Inkatha Freedom Party prior to your arrest?

MR MBAMBO: (REPLY NOT INTERPRETED)

MR WILLS: And it was as a result of this association that you eventually decided to join the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, there was a certain individual by the name of Siphiwe Mvuyane who was an influential person in your life. He too was a member of the KwaZulu Police and a staunch IFP supporter, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And it was largely his influence which caused you to become a member of the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to paragraph six (6) of your affidavit which appears at page five (5) of the bundle, to just briefly describe the circumstances surrounding your joining the KwaZulu Police.

MR MBAMBO: Are you asking me to open paragraph six (6)?

MR WILLS: Yes, page five (5) of the affidavit.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I've found it.

MR WILLS: Yes. Sorry, I just want you to tell us about the incident that occurred at Ulundi where you were in the presence of Siphiwe Mvuyane.

MR MBAMBO: Siphiwe Mvuyane was a police of the KwaZulu Police Department, and he was also a member of the hit squad, acting as a commander of the hit squad in Natal, the South Region and also the Durban Central. He was involved in hit squads in most of these areas, and there was an investigation on him and he was supposed to be arrested by the South African Police. They have already requested that the KwaZulu Police should suspend him so that he could be investigated. He was called to come to Ulundi by Ntwana Chief Gatsha Buthelezi who was the Minister of the KwaZulu Police at the time. He wanted to discuss about the suspension. Siphiwe requested me to accompany him to Ulundi. We went together to Ulundi. When we arrived at the Legislature in the KwaZulu Government that's where we met Dr M G Buthelezi. After the discussions Siphiwe told me that they had discussion about his suspension and the Chief Minister agreed that Siphiwe should not be suspended from the KwaZulu Police. However, the Chief Minister, referred to as Ntwana of Phindangene requested that Siphiwe shall come to work at Ulundi. However, since Siphiwe was a person who lived in the cities, he didn't like going to go and work at Ulundi. He put conditions that he can only come to work at Ulundi if he could be put in charge of any particular unit there. All the units which were existing at Ulundi had their own commanders. Therefore there wasn't any unit in which he could be assign. Therefore they have to establish a new unit and they called it the Firearm Unit and they made him the commander. Those were the things that they discussed with the Chief Minister.

MR WILLS: Yes, but this was reported to you by Mvuyane. You weren't actually present at that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: In paragraph ten (10) of your affidavit you commence to say how Brian Gin Mkhize, one of your co-applicants in this matter, approached you in order to become a member of the hit squad. Now, I know the Esikhawini hit squad. I know that you've told this evidence before. I'd like you to briefly go over it so that the members of the public are put in the picture as regards how you joined this hit squad, but I want you to concentrate on being as brief as possible. If any party here to these proceedings wants more detail, I'm sure they'll ask.

MR MBAMBO: I was then employed as a policeman working as Esikhawini. In Esikhawini there was a certain policeman by the name of Gin Mkhize. One day he came to my house where I was staying and we had some discussions, and we also discussed politics. And he also introduced himself to me as to who he was, and also his involvement in the IFP as an organisation. He also asked me if I know about the Israelites. I said, "Yes, I know about the Israelites, even if I don't have more information about them". The Israelites were known as a gang, the two hundred (200) Gang which was recruited by the IFP to be trained in Israel, to come back and fight against the ANC within the country in South Africa. The reason why they were called the Israelites, it was because they never knew where they were taken to. They thought they were taken to Israel, by they were taken to Caprivi where they were trained. They were known by all the KwaZulu Police members and that also they were trained to fight against the ANC. He introduced himself to me as one of those people, and he also told me that there is a difficult situation in the place, in that the IFP people are being killed within the community by the ANC members. He also said that he has recognised me with Siphiwe Mvuyane, the person I've just explained now. He trusts me and he believes that I'm also a member of the IFP, and anything that he's going to say to me will be kept secret, and we agreed on that. And he said that he was sent to recruit me to join the Caprivi group so that we can fight and attack the ANC. I said to him, "I understand what you're saying, but I can't just easily join your group without having had any contact with the people who sent you to recruit me to be sure that I won't find myself in trouble as times goes on". And then he took me at that time to one lady, a mother known as Mrs Mbuyase. This Mrs Mbuyase was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP. This Central Committee acted as an Executive Committee of the IFP at the time and she was also a leader of the Women's Brigade for the IFP. I was introduced to this mother by Gin Mkhize and I introduced myself to her and she also introduced herself as Mrs Mbuyase to me, and she told me that I should relax because Gin Mkhize are their members and they were sent by her and the other members from Ulundi, and therefore she is happy to see someone committed like me to come and help and join them to fight against the ANC. She said I mustn't worry because she's going to arrange a meeting with the senior leaders of the IFP at Ulundi so that we can discuss the matter. We agreed on that, on that particular day.

MR WILLS: Yes, sorry. Then you met with certain people in Ulundi, is that correct? Those were Captain Langeni, M Z Khumalo, Daluxolo Luthuli, who is one of the co-applicants in these proceedings?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And can you just briefly say what was discussed at that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: As I've stated, I was welcome and they were happy that I have joined their wing. They explained to me that they have a problem as members of the IFP and also the Zulu nation as a whole, in that the communists which were the ANC, together with their aligned movements, the SACP, are busy killing members of the IFP, together with the IFP people. They said that they have thought it necessary to establish a wing which will fight against the communists to protect the country so that it shouldn't become like other countries, for example, Mozambique or Angola, which were also led by communists where people are starving. They told me that Ntwana, the Chief Minister, is very happy that there are people like us who are going to help the IFP in fighting against the communists, which were ANC members. And they also explained how we are going to work. They said that in the local leadership within the Esikhawini region and the leadership from Ulundi are going to work with this group, together with the BSI. BSI, it's a group which is affiliated to the KwaZulu Police. We're going to work together in attacking some particular people from the ANC leadership of which we're going to be told who was supposed to be killed.

MR WILLS: Yes. And is it not also so that you were told then that you'd be protected from prosecution because you were fighting for the Zulu nation?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, we were told that we should be free, because we won't find ourselves in trouble, because we'll be working for the Government. The Government which was in charge at the time and we were also helping the community together with the Zulu nation.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, one of the persons you've mentioned, Daluxolo Luthuli, the co-applicant, he was basically the military commander of a number of hit squads that were operating throughout KwaZulu-Natal and in other areas, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct. He was the man in charge of all the hit squads all over the country in South Africa.

MR WILLS: And in addition to that, just for the benefit of the public, he was also the individual who ordered Mr Hlongwane to come to Ermelo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, after this meeting, were you satisfied that it would be proper for you to join this hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, after the meeting I was given the assurance that I'll be working for the Government and also the IFP as an organisation.

MR WILLS: You then started operating in the Northern Natal area, in the area around Esikhawini, Richards Bay, Empangeni, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: But sorry, prior to your operations, you were trained in the use of certain explosives and firearms by Mkhize?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And briefly, you were supplied with both logistical support and firearms and ammunition by high ranking persons in Ulundi?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And the local IFP leadership in Esikhawini also assisted greatly with things, for example, vehicles to do your work and also ammunition?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And as you operated in Esikhawini, you have applied for amnesty in respect of a number of murders of prominent ANC and COSATU people, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you've given evidence in respect of all of those other incidents, detailed evidence. I just want you to concentrate on the purpose for which you've been brought to this community, and that is the murder of Mr Theledi which commences, Mr Chairperson, on page forty two (42) of Volume one (1). Can you turn to that incident. It starts at paragraph ninety four (94) of your affidavit, and can you just tell the Committee how it came about that you murdered this individual?

MR MBAMBO: I was working at Esikhawini Police Station. I got a telephone call that I'm wanted at Mrs Mbuyase. I went there. When I arrived, I found Mrs Mbuyase, Siphiwe Mvuyane and Israel Hlongwane. They explained that there is an emergency situation at Nelspruit and there is someone in Nelspruit who is working with the ANC branch in Ermelo. This is a person supplying them with arms coming from Mozambique through the Oshoek border gate, and he was the one who used to carry the arms to the branch in Ermelo, which was an ANC Branch, so that the ANC branch can fight against the IFP in Ermelo. It was explained that I shall, in the company of Siphiwe and Israel Hlongwane, go to Nelspruit to kill Mr Theledi.

MR WILLS: Just before you continue, Mr Mbambo. This Siphiwe Mvuyane you refer to, he is the same individual who was influential in your earlier career and was one of the persons who influenced you to join the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And when this plan was hatched or when it was communicated to you, Mrs Mbuyase, from the evidence you've just given, who was, as you indicated, one of the local IFP leaders at Esikhawini, was fully aware of the fact that this assassination was being planned?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And she supported it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, she's the one who sent me.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Can you continue?

MR MBAMBO: We left her place. We went to my house and we came straight to Nelspruit, Mpumalanga. It was becoming late when we arrived. We stopped at a police station, in front of the police station in Khangwane. We waited there for some time. It was becoming dark and a Mercedes-Benz car came. It looks like it was white. A male came out of the Mercedes-Benz and talked to Siphiwe Mvuyane, and he went back into his car and we followed this car. We proceeded until we arrived at Bushbuck Ridge. There is a shopping complex in that town and when we arrive at the area, we stopped in a parking just outside the entrance of the shopping complex. Siphiwe instructed us to come out and to go to the person who we met at the Khangwane Police, driving a white Mercedes-Benz. Siphiwe talked to this man. He came back to us and got into the car. We waited a moment and then a young man came and talked to the person who was in the white Mercedes-Benz. The person in the white Mercedes-Benz came to tell us that Mr Theledi is not there, he's in Pretoria, and it looked like he will not be back to Bushbuck Ridge for some few days. We have to drive back to KwaZulu-Natal. I reported to Mrs Mbuyase because Siphiwe Mvuyane have to proceed to Durban and if we were to go back to Bushbuck Ridge he was supposed to come and accompany us. After some weeks Siphiwe came back and we drove back to Bushbuck Ridge. We were three. It was myself, Siphiwe Mvuyane and Israel Hlongwane. We went to the Khangwane Police and we met the very same white Mercedes-Benz, and it's occupant talked to Siphiwe. Siphiwe came back to us. It was on this particular second day when Siphiwe introduced us to this man who was driving the white Mercedes-Benz. His name was Willie Moekwena. He was introduced as an IFP coordinator at Ulundi and also in Mpumalanga. We were introduced to him. We got into the car and we proceeded towards Bushbuck Ridge and it was drizzling on that particular night. We went there and stop just at the entrance of the shopping complex that I've already mentioned. On that particular day Mr Theledi was pointed to us. He was inside the shop, and we were standing outside. As we were waiting there were so many police in the area, surrounding area. I think they were the Lebowa Police, because their cars had LP registration numbers. We waited until they left and the shops were close. Japhi came out with the other people he was with. They got into a red car which look like a Honda. They left. On that particular day we left about the operation, we didn't proceed. Siphiwe talked to this Willie Moekwena who was driving the white Mercedes-Benz, and we drove back to KwaZulu-Natal, and we went back to report to Mrs Mbuyase, and Siphiwe went back to Durban. It went on like that. Siphiwe Mvuyane was killed at the University of Durban-Westville in Durban. Wiseman Nconco came to me at Esikhawini. He was driving a sky blue VW kombi, a Caravelle. I used to know it as Siphiwe Mvuyane's car. He delivered - he told me that the IFP in Mpumalanga and Nelspruit, they are still complaining that the person who is troubling them, who is supplying firearms coming from Mozambique to Ermelo is still alive and nothing has been done about him. We went together with this man and explained this to Mrs Mbuyase. Mrs Mbuyase instructed that we should come back to Nelspruit and therefore we had to proceed to Nelspruit. We went to Nelspruit. It was on Friday evening when we left Empangeni, and we arrived here in the early hours of the morning. We went to a township known as KaNyamazane in Nelspruit. We stayed in one house there and during the day, on Saturday, Willie Moekwena, who was said to be a coordinator, came with driving a kombi which looks the same as the one we were driving in. It didn't have registration numbers written. We have already removed the number plates in our cars. It was no longer the NT, it has the computer numbers, registration numbers. The other one had also computerised numbers. And we get into the cars and we proceeded following each other, going towards the Bushbuck Ridge direction and we were put into his own hotel. We stayed there. And someone by the name of David came. It looks like it was a brother to Willie Moekwena. He was sent to go and do a reconnaissance as to whether Mr Theledi is there. We waited the whole Saturday, and we were told that he went to Johannesburg or Pretoria, and on Sunday evening we decided to go back to Durban because we couldn't find him and we will come at another date. We agreed. Willie Moekwena said we must go to Nelspruit in town to buy food. We got into a car, his car, Willie Moekwena's car which is a Caravelle. I've already explained, as looking the same as the one we were driving, and therefore we drove to Nelspruit. As we were driving on our way we met a Honda Prelude which was red. Willie said, "This is the person", and he referred to him as Mr Theledi. We proceeded forward and did a U-turn and went back to stand at his place. We waited until it was late and when it was becoming dark, because when we left KwaZulu-Natal to Nelspruit we were armed with our issued firearms as KwaZulu Police. We were not holding AK47, Makarovs, all those unlawful firearms because we're afraid of meeting a roadblock on the way, and we knew that we'll get firearms in Nelspruit. Mr Moekwena took out an AK47 which we were supposed to use. When I took the AK47 I find that it was muddy, full of mud. It looks like it's been used before, and I realised I can't use such a firearm because it's not safe, because it has been used before. The AK47 I'm talking about was brought by David who was a brother to Willie Moekwena. I told them I don't trust this AK47. They say to me they don't have other firearms. We said we'll use our own issued firearms and we'll report when we go back and there might be tampered with when we go back to KwaZulu-Natal to hide the evidence. Mr Willie Moekwena explained to us that - he asked us actually as to whether we still remember how Japhi looks like and he ask us to describe him to him. And I told him he has short hair, he doesn't have long hair. He has cut his hair and he's growing grey. His hair is growing grey and he's also clad in a lot of jewellery. He's also armed with a gun which he normally puts on his leg and he also had a bodyguard who is armed with a shotgun. And we proceeded to this place. It was myself and Wiseman Nconco. Wiseman was wearing a bulletproof vest inside and a jean and also a black hat. I was also wearing a jean and a T-shirt which was black and also a cap which was black. We went there. We found him and we agreed that when we arrive there we are not going to speak Zulu, we are going to speak English because when wearing these hats, they wouldn't be able to distinguish whether we are whites or coloureds. We entered and we found him in the supermarket next to a tiller. We greeted him in English. He responded back. We proceeded along the shelves in the shop. We turned around the shelf and come back. We were on the other side of the shelf. When we're coming back I told Wiseman to go and stand at the entrance, to wait for me because I was supposed to shoot him. As I was turning around the shelf proceeding towards him, I already pull out my firearm. I was holding a Z88 9mm. I shot him with this firearm. It was about some few shots and he fell to the ground. After he fell to the ground I shot him on his head. After he collapsed I saw his firearm on his leg. I just went out of the door and turned towards the back of the building. It looks like the police barracks. I went through and jump a fence and I was coming out of the Mkowena Complex. We left our car about a distance from the scene. We entered into a white 4X4 car. I'm sorry, I don't remember whether it was Willie Moekwena who was driving or David himself. We left the scene and they dropped us next to our car. It was already dark because it was at night. We get into our cars and we drove back to KwaZulu-Natal. We arrive late at night at home. The first thing we did was going to Mrs Mbuyase to give the report. She was so happy and she said she'll call Ulundi to report this report and thereafter we went back to our police station. We phoned the Mkowena family to find out as to whether he died or not and they confirmed that he died and we went back to Mrs Mbuyase to report that it's true, he is dead and she was so happy saying that she's going to give the report to Ulundi. And that's how Japhi Theledi died.

MR WILLS: Now, you have been convicted for this offence and you were given a twelve (12) year sentence. You were convicted as a result of a guilty plea, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And after the sentence you met privately in Ermelo with the Theledi family?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, I know that you've apologised to them privately. What have you got to say now to them publicly?

MR MBAMBO: I know that I got a chance, an opportunity like this during the trial in Nelspruit to meet with the family and apologise about my dirty work, but I think that today it's the right opportunity since I have the whole community and the people of Mpumalanga, because I heard after I was convicted that Mr Buthelezi, he was a person who was of help to the whole community, especially the Bushbuck Ridge community and surrounding areas. He used to help them with their problems and many other things. Therefore I know that my deed didn't only cause a loss to the Buthelezi family, however, the community as a whole which used to get help from Mr Buthelezi did suffer a loss. Therefore I will say to the community of Mpumalanga I'm sorry, and I apologise for what I did. I know that my words are not powerful to wipe off your tears and also cool your hearts. However, what I'm doing at this time, this is all I can do to tell you the truth today as to why it happened and how it happened, and I ask for your forgiveness. Thank you.

MR WILLS: Yes. Mr Mbambo, you also made a commitment to the Theledi family, on that occasion I spoke to earlier, about assisting in making sure that the other persons responsible were also brought before the law, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is correct. After I pleaded guilty in court, I became a State witness. I gave the same evidence that I am giving before the commission to help the Government to convict those who were accomplices in this murder of Mr Buthelezi.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Theledi. Sorry, if you can just bear with me. Sorry, you're referring to Mr Theledi?

MR MBAMBO: Yes. I'm saying I tried to help the Government as a State witness so that all my accomplices could be convicted. I mean those people who laid a hand and killing Mr Theledi.

MR WILLS: Yes. And is it not so that you did in fact appear at Mr Wiseman Nconco's trial as a State witness and as a result of your's and other evidence available at that trial, that person was indeed convicted for the same offence that you were convicted?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills. Do you have any cross-examination?

MR MAGADI: I have no cross-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any cross-examination?

MR NTULI: None, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller, do you have?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, do you have any cross-examination?

MR SWANEPOEL: No cross-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Just on question, Mr Chairman. Mr Mbambo, I see on page forty four (44), paragraph ninety eight (98), you state that you were convicted for murder and two counts of attempted for the same incident?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MPSHE: Who are the other two persons?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know them, Mr Chairperson, by their name. I just met them during the trial. I also explained that to them, that I cannot explain even today how they got injured, but I know that they were injured because of my acts, because I never shot directly at them, but they said that I shot at them.

MR MPSHE: But you're not applying for amnesty for these other two incidents, not so?

MR MBAMBO: I do apply an amnesty, with respect, to them.

MR MPSHE: How do you apply to that, because the incident is only the Japhi Theledi matter only? There's no any other person mentioned here.

MR MBAMBO: I think I explained or I would say I wrote the statement before the trial of Japhi Theledi, the killing of Japhi Theledi. When writing this statement I didn't know that there were other two people who were injured. I only discovered this during the trial, that two people were injured when I shot at Theledi, and I also accepted or admitted in court that they might have been injured because of my actions. I think that's the reason why it doesn't appear in the statement.

MRS KHAMPEPE: You have applied for it. I think you have inserted it in your application which is on page three (3), Mr Mpshe. Page three (3). It is included.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, these two people that were injured when you were shooting Mr Theledi and who you saw or learnt about them for the first time at your trial, were they seriously injured at all? Can you remember? Did they give evidence as to how seriously they were injured?

MR MBAMBO: During my trial they didn't testify because I pleaded guilty. I didn't explain as to how they were injured because I didn't even know how they were injured, but I did meet them and I had talks with them, and I apologised.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they appear to be crippled or permanently injured at all?

MR MBAMBO: No, they were not crippled.

MRS KHAMPEPE: To your knowledge then, Mr Mbambo, you did not cause anyone harm other than Mr Theledi?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MRS KHAMPEPE: So, how can you apply for amnesty in respect of an offence that you never committed?

MR MBAMBO: The reason for that application is when I entered the shop to shoot Mr Theledi, he was not alone, but he was close to me. He was the person who was closest to me. I didn't point the firearm to any other person besides Mr Theledi, but they explained that when I shot at Theledi they were inside the shop. I don't remember anyone shooting inside the shop except myself at the time. Therefore if they were injured at the time when Mr Theledi was injured ... (CASSETTE 1B) ... at their back. I didn't see whether he shot or not.

MRS KHAMPEPE: So, you wouldn't know whether the two people who got shot were shot by him? You wouldn't be able to gainsay that, would you?

MR MBAMBO: I won't be able to say.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.

MR MPSHE: May I just continue that one, Mr Chairman. You told the Committee now that you spoke to these other two people when you were attending the criminal trial?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: You saw them and you know them?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: Why is it not that their names are not disclosed to us?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know their names.

MR MPSHE: But you were confronted with a charge sheet or an indictment wherein their names were mentioned?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MPSHE: Now, why were you not given their names?

MR MBAMBO: As I'm trying to explain, if they are not in my application, I don't have any reason to explain why they are not there, because I only saw it in the indictment that the other two people were injured and I had to meet the family of Mr Theledi and they have to show me the areas in which they were shot. That was the only time where I recognised that other people were injured and I can't explain further.

MR MPSHE: Ja. Did you, when consulting with your lawyer, MR John Wills, disclose these other two incidents to him when you were drafting up this affidavit?

MR MBAMBO: I should have explained that to him, if provided I wrote the statement after the trial, but if I wrote the statement before the trial I will not have told him.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I must come in here. I must state that I acted for Mr Mbambo at that trial and it is solely as a result of my probably lack of attention to this particular detail or fault on my part that this is not disclosed. Clearly I was his instructing attorney at that trial. I was involved in the drafting together with counsel of the section 112 plea, and it is clearly my mistake that the names of these people aren't here. In my defence, I did write timeously to the Amnesty Committee and indicate to them that this record was available and this incident was available, and further that the Judge had found in the judgment that there had been political motivation. So, it wasn't as if we purposely tried to not disclose this. We in fact supplied the details of this trial to the Amnesty Committee prior to - or to the Truth Commission prior to this matter being heard.

CHAIRPERSON: The case number is referred to in the application form.

MRS KHAMPEPE: But, Mr Wills, I'm sure this would probably come up appropriately when you address us. Has sufficient information been disclosed by your client in respect of the offence that he is now seeking amnesty for? You haven't led him in respect of the attempted murder. There is nothing in his evidence-in-chief that has been referred to in respect of this offence.

MR WILLS: Yes. I must take full responsibility for that. If I could ask for a short recess to consider that position. I agree entirely that at this stage you are perfectly correct, in that in respect of the attempted murders there is not sufficient detail. I wonder if I could ask for a short recess then I can get that information to me from my offices and possibly we can put it on record. I ask for this, and I apologise profusely from my position for the inconvenience caused. But it is just one of the things that has slipped my attention. It's clearly not our intention not to fully disclose these matters. It simply is clearly a mistake on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, before we contemplate whether the matter should stand down, there are some questions which I wish to ask in cross-examination, and I anticipate they will be very brief. So, it might be opportune if you could dispose of my interests in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Wills, are you wanting to have an adjournment for what purpose? Just to get some information from your office?

MR WILLS: Yes, and also to put this information - I can't myself recall the names of these individuals and exactly what happened. What I want is I should have it with me, but if not, I'd want my 112 plea faxed from my office to here and then we can raise the matter with Mr Mbambo before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, have you finished your questioning?

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mr Hewitt?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Please have a look at your affidavit. And I want you to look at page forty two (42). Have you got that?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Do you agree that in that affidavit you deal with the murder of Japhi Theledi on pages forty two (42), forty three (43) and forty four (44) of the affidavit?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: And all your allegations in relation to the murder of Japhi Theledi are contained in paragraphs ninety four (94), ninety five (95), ninety six (96), ninety seven (97) and ninety eight (98) of that affidavit?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Do you agree with me that in those paragraphs dealing with the murder of Japhi Theledi there is no reference whatsoever to Mrs Mbuyase?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Her name doesn't feature at all?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: In relation to knowledge of the murder of Theledi or complicity in it or happiness over it, regarding the fact that it was carried out.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hewitt. Mr Wills, how long - do you want an adjournment now and then we'll reconvene as soon as possible?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I would like an adjournment now. Possibly I could discuss this matter with the Committee members in chambers very briefly.

CHAIRPERSON: Will we be coming back here? I want to know whether we should be adjourning or not. All right. We'll just take a short adjournment, five (5) or ten (10 )minutes, and then we'll be coming back. Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT

ON RESUMPTION

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbambo, is it not so that there were two who were injured by gunshot wounds in the incident other than Mr Theledi being killed?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And the names of those persons were Miemie Matsana. That's spelt M-I-E-M-I-E. Matsana, M-A-T-S-A-N-A. And Boy Moekwena.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that you also pleaded guilty to the fact that you were charged with attempted murder in respect of these two persons?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you explain the circumstances how they were injured?

MR MBAMBO: As I have explained, that in the shop where we found Mr Japhi Theledi, he was not alone, there were other people in the shop. I would say it was possible that at the time when I was shooting at Japhi Theledi, some people got injured in the vicinity. However, I didn't intend to shoot them, I intended to shoot Japhi Theledi.

MR WILLS: Yes, but at the time of shooting Japhi Theledi you foresaw the possibility that another person might get injured, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, if a bullet ricocheted it might be possible that someone might be shot.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there any cross-examination on this new evidence from any of the counsel or attorneys?

MR MAGADI: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntuli?

MR NTULI: None, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller? Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: On questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one question. Mr Mbambo, if I understand you correctly then, the two persons, that is Matsana and Moekwena, if they were injured, were injured by mistake?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MPSHE: They were never part of the plan wherein the political objective could have been hatched?

MR MBAMBO: I wasn't sent to go and shoot them.

MR MPSHE: Yes, but what I'm saying is, if it is found that there is the political objective in as far as Mr Theledi is concerned, a similar conclusion cannot be reached in respect of the two other victims?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR MPSHE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Moloi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOLOI: I have none, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: I've got none, Mr Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe?

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbambo, in your testimony you've stated that Mrs Mbuyase gave you initial instructions to kill Japhi Theledi when she was in the company of Mvuyane and Hlongwane, and this happened at her house?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it's correct.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Can you explain how you came to state in your comprehensive affidavit that the instructions came from Mr Mvuyane at your house?

MR MBAMBO: I explained that we went to Nelspruit three times. On our first - the first two occasions we didn't manage to find Mr Theledi. I don't remember whether I was referring - whether it was the second or the first time where we have to go via Mrs Mbuyase when we were coming from Nelspruit. However, if I remember well, that the first time I heard about the Nelspruit operation I was called by a telephone to go to Mrs Mbuyase's home and I went there. I found Siphiwe Mvuyane in the house. And the second time it was when Siphiwe came to pick me up from my house and we went via Mrs Mbuyase's house to Nelspruit.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Your statement is in fact wrong then as it stands.

MR MBAMBO: I would say yes, the first paragraph said Siphiwe came to the house on the first occasion. He picked me from the house to Nelspruit. It should be the second instance.

MRS KHAMPEPE: But at paragraph ninety four (94) you state that this happened in January 1993. Would that period still be incorrect or would that remain correct?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Chairperson, I won't be sure about the dates of the incidents. I will say it would be January, but I'm not sure.

MRS KHAMPEPE: You've also stated in your viva voce evidence that Mr Nconco came to you to ask you to proceed with the elimination of Mr Theledi as he was a problem amongst the IFP people in Nelspruit?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MRS KHAMPEPE: And then you then went to Mrs Mbuyase and Mrs Mbuyase gave you the approval to proceed with the elimination?

MR MBAMBO: (REPLY NOT INTERPRETED)

MRS KHAMPEPE: Didn't Mr Wiseman Nconco know Mrs Mbuyase?

MR MBAMBO: He knew her.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Why didn't he go to Mrs Mbuyase? Why did he come to you?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know whether he first contacted her or not, but since he was an operative like me, and based in Umlazi, Makuthu and the other surrounding areas, he was always working closer with Siphiwe who was a commander in the Southern Natal. He's the one who came with this Caravelle car I've just explained, which was a car belonging to Siphiwe Mvuyane, after the death of Siphiwe Mvuyane.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Yes, I know that. What I find very surprising is that in your comprehensive affidavit you had made no mention of Mrs Mbuyase having given any approval of you proceeding with the elimination of Mr Theledi after Mr Mvuyane had died.

MR MBAMBO: I don't know, Mr Chairperson, but I would like to point it out that I have explained that statements that we gave with regards to the incidents of our involvement are so many in such a way that you might find in one of the statement which I wrote before, it contained all the information that I remembered, and the other one that I might have made in another place, I might write it and it will look different to the previous one, because I might forget some of the incidents and put them in and some out. So, I don't understand, I'm also surprised as to why it's not in the statement.

MRS KHAMPEPE: So, you are saying we must accept the version that you have given today?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, because if you look at my evidence during the trial, most of the things which do not appear in the statement before us today were disclosed during the trial.

MRS KHAMPEPE: I wasn't concerned about your trial, I was just concerned about this application. In any case, thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Judge Khampepe. Any questions arising out of questions put by Judge Khampepe to the witness?

MR MAGADI: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntuli?

MR NTULI: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbambo, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at this stage, just prior to the commencement of this hearing, we, the members of the panel, were approached by the legal representatives, and the legal representative for certain victims in this matter, particularly relating to the evidence which will be given by the next witness, Mr Hlongwane, has asked for a postponement because he has to get instructions from his clients and he's not in a position to proceed with the matter tomorrow, and unfortunately the matter will only we able to be proceeded with on Wednesday with Mr Hlongwane's evidence. So, at this stage we will postpone this hearing until Wednesday, that is the fifteenth (15th) of September 1998, at 9:30 in the morning at this hall. However, we will be proceeding tomorrow, but with another matter. It's another amnesty application which has nothing to do at all with this present one. That is the amnesty application of one Voice Morris Sambo. That matter is expected and hopefully will proceed tomorrow morning at this hall, also at 9:30 in the morning. So at this stage, we'll adjourn this hearing and the evidence of Mr Hlongwane to commence on Wednesday, but we will be adjourning until tomorrow for another amnesty application, namely that of Mr Sambo. I apologise for any inconvenience caused by such postponement. Thank you.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 15 SEPTEMBER 1998

PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 15 SEPTEMBER 1998

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everything. I apologise for the late start in this matter. You'll recall that yesterday evening this matter was postponed until half past nine this morning. We were all ready at half past nine save for the representative of the applicant. Mr Mpshe, is Mr Black present?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, he has not yet arrived, but we just got his call about ten (10) minutes ago, informing us that he's plus forty (40) minutes away. But as the Committee had directed in chambers, the attorney is ready to start with the matter. He will take up whenever he arrives.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, you're the applicant's attorney. Are you in a position to commence with this matter? Have you spoken to your client about this situation?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, I have explained to the client the position, and with the leave of the Committee, given the fact that now Mr Black, we're aware that he's about forty five/forty (45/40) minutes away from here. If it pleases the Committee, we may adjourn for the time. However, looking at the time that we have waited, if the Committee is of the idea that we proceed, we are ready to proceed with the background until Mr Black arrives here.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say it's most unsatisfactory that an advocate can phone and say he's got another forty (40) minutes to go when it's quarter past eleven and we should have been starting at half past nine. I just cannot understand it. It's a situation that has caused great problems now because, as you know, we will not be able to proceed with this matter tomorrow or Thursday, because there's the other part-heard matter that is proceeding at half past nine. And that other matter was the prime reason why we've come to Ermelo for this hearing. This matter was put on as an addition to the roll. So, if we start with this matter and it doesn't finish, it will end up being a part-heard, which one normally likes to avoid picking up part-heard matters. Mr Nkosi, you mentioned this when we were in chambers earlier, but just to confirm it on record. When Mr Black arrives, will he be in a position to start off immediately? He won't want to have some time to consult, because you did inform me that he had consulted with the applicant before this day or before yesterday, some time in the past? Is that correct?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, that is correct. However, as I mentioned in chambers, there is a supplementary statement that has been made. Mr Black did consult with the applicant on the original statement. However, on the supplementary statement he has not consulted. I'll further mention that the supplementary statement, there is not much that differs very much with the original statement. So whatever time he might need to consult with him, it shouldn't be very much big time.

MRS KHAMPEPE: What supplementary statement are you referring to? Do we have a copy thereof?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the statement that appears on pages seventeen (17) through to twenty (20)?

MRS KHAMPEPE: To twenty (20).

MR NKOSI: That's correct.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Let me understand you properly, Mr Nkosi. Are you saying you are not in a position to proceed, and that you would prefer that we wait for Mr Black?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, on preferences I would prefer that we wait for Mr Black. However, given the time and the fact that he is still on the road, I am in a position to proceed with this matter until he arrives. Probably when he arrives we would adjourn and he would consult with us. The main thing that we might have to do before his arrival may be the background of which he is aware.

MR MOLOI: Mr Nkosi, if I may find out. You say the supplementary statement he hasn't consulted on yet. When last did Mr Black consult with the applicant?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, although I wouldn't remember correctly the dates, but it was during the last sitting of the Commission at Ermelo. That's when he consulted together with myself, with applicant and that's when applicant raised some other issues which resulted in us making further investigations and what he said, and that resulted in us making the supplementary statement which was finished and sent to the Committee about Thursday last week. So, he hasn't consulted with him over this statement.

MR MOLOI: Because I see there is a date to the supplementary statement, the typed version and the longhand version, that it was signed on the twenty ninth (29th) of August 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, we've now been speaking for just short of ten (10) minutes. So, the forty (40) minutes has whittled down to less than forty (40) minutes now. It would probably, unsatisfactory as it is, be best then to wait for Mr Black's arrival, rather than proceed in a haphazard fashion with you starting, Mr Black coming in then when he takes over he might have to cover ground that you've already covered. That sort of thing. Perhaps the best, and I don't know if it's possible, is if we could take an adjournment now and utilise this time as the lunch break and then go right through with this matter instead of starting and then adjourning for lunch and proceeding.

MR NKOSI: That would be acceptable, Mr Chairman.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Is that logistically possible, Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that can be arranged. I don't foresee any difficulties. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, then we'll take an adjournment now and wait for the applicant's legal representative whose arrival we hope will be in the very near future. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, are you in a position to proceed with this matter?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I must apologise for the delay, and without having to go into any details about it, I was prepared for tomorrow. I've spoken to Mr Sambo, the applicant. My attorney, instructing attorney, has given me additional documentation today which I didn't have prior to consulting with Mr Sambo, and in my respectful submission, justice would best be served if we do have a postponement. I've discussed the matter thoroughly with Mr Sambo and with his wife, and I don't think Mr Sambo is embarrassed in any sense of the word if I mention it. He is not literate in the sense and to go through the additional documentation is going to take time. I've attempted to come to some agreement about a postponement, but I understand that there may well be a problem in my application for a postponement. But I've been placed in a very difficult position, let's put it that way. And I'd respectfully request a postponement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, if my learned friend is saying he's seeking for a postponement because of the additional documents that were given to him today, that consists of two pages. If that is the reason for seeking for a postponement then I must hasten to oppose such an application. Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, the applicant was represented in July in the same application by the same advocate who knew the matter very well and when the matter was postponed by the then Committee, it was indicated to my learned friend the advocate here present that certain things are to be put right. It was some time in July. Now, I cannot understand, Mr Chairman, I'm not saying he should be able to do the matter today, but the bulk of the matter is known by my learned friend. He prepared the documents. He represented him in the month of July and he has consulted with the client many a times before this very month in July. Now, for him to need a postponement only to read two pages, that are nothing new but it's just an amendment to the original affidavit, I've gone through that affidavit. It does not change the original in any material respect. He's just amending and saying, "I'm putting right what I've said in the other affidavit". Mr Chairman, I must put on record my utmost dissatisfaction. I know it is the duty of the Committee to do that, but the way in which my learned friend has carried himself in this matter is really, if I'm not blamed for being defamatory, very unethical. To keep the Committee waiting for the whole day and the people and everybody here only to seek at the last moment a postponement. Mr Chairman, when we left the chambers, the idea was for them to look into the question of calling witnesses, whether they will call them or not to discuss with the client. They did that and they came back to me and I said, "Look, if you've got that witness to call, Mr Sibiya, I have no objection. You can hand up his affidavit and dispense with him. I will not object. I won't even ask a question pertaining to Mr Sibiya's affidavit". My learned friend and his attorney agreed and they said they are going to talk to the client, and when they come back now it is no more the question of witnesses, it is a question of further information. Mr Chairman, I'm dissatisfied by this changing or moving around of poles at the expense of the taxpayer's money. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: If I may reply. If we talk about changing of poles. My time schedule, initially this matter was - there's the Caprivi Strip matter hearing. This, I was giving to understand, would be a matter which was going to be slotted in on Thursday. I then had to reschedule my time to Wednesday and I've made an attempt to be here today. As I say, the delay I must apologise and I don't want to be - I'm certainly not going to be naming people and colleagues. The difficulty that I've found myself in is that there is a witness. I certainly haven't consulted with him. It's quite correct what Mr Mpshe says, I have consulted with Mr Sambo, the applicant. The reason why the matter was postponed on the last occasion was simply again that there was no time to hear his application. As originally scheduled, I'm available tomorrow, I'm available on Thursday and it's simply that, after having discussions with the applicant this morning, and as I've indicated, together with the additional possible witness and his wife, it would, in my respectful submission, not be doing the applicant any justice if we simply proceed with the evidence-in-chief and end up with a part-heard matter or something to that effect. We all know as lawyers, part-heard matters cause great difficulty in the sense that we've got to get all the parties together again. I must apologise again for the delay, but I can give the Committee the absolute assurance that it's through no fault of mine and I've attempted to get here. But as I say, as scheduled, I'm available that Mr Sambo's matter be heard either tomorrow or Thursday, but I also appreciate the fact that there are other matters that have been apparently scheduled now for Wednesday and Thursday. I have no idea why I'm supposed to have been here today. I've been attempting to get some explanation as to why at the last minute I had to be here. So, I would again just apply for a postponement on behalf of Mr Sambo, and it's not just the question of the two page affidavit. There is a necessity to have a consultation with him. Thank you.

R U L I N G

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. This matter, as mentioned earlier, was postponed yesterday until 9:30 this morning. It's now 2:30 and I must say that we as a panel were upset and very much dissatisfied by the fact that not only us, but all the people present in the hall here, the other legal representatives were kept waiting in the dark as it were until just before lunch time. It seems from what Mr Black has told us, that there was some misunderstanding that this matter would be proceeded with on Wednesday, and where that comes from I don't know, and I'm sure Mr Mpshe doesn't know either, and that misunderstanding or the coming about of that misunderstanding is also most unfortunate.

Mr Black has, on behalf of the applicant, applied for a postponement in this matter stating that he would require a further consultation with his client, notwithstanding the fact that he has in the past had consultations with the client.

There's also the possibility that a witness or witnesses may be called despite Mr Mpshe's offer that any affidavit would be submitted by such witness on an unopposed basis. However, our main concern is to ensure that the applicant gets a fair hearing in this matter, and I'm sure if it started today, having a look at the papers before us, and having read the affidavit of the applicant, that the chances would be very great that we wouldn't even conclude the evidence-in-chief of the applicant which would mean a part-heard matter in the middle of the applicant's evidence which is not very desirable. It's most unfortunate the whole situation surrounding this whole application, particularly today, but we are of the view that after having heard Mr Black's problems relating to the matter, that it would probably be in the interests of the applicant to have the matter not heard today. We are aware at the same time that this loss of a day constitutes not only a great waste of time, everybody's time that's been here, but also a loss of resources as well. And although we are loath not to proceed with the matter today, we think that it would probably be in the interests of justice that the matter not be heard today. I think in the circumstances then, the course to follow would be at this stage just to remove it from the roll and it can be set down at some later stage. Unfortunately then we will not be proceeding with the matter on the application of the applicant, and we will then stand adjourned until half past nine tomorrow with regard to the other amnesty application, namely the application of the so-called Caprivians. That application will no doubt take up the whole of today and go into Thursday and might even take up most of Thursday.

I, in the circumstances, do not think there would be any purpose in postponing this particular application to either tomorrow or Thursday, because that would more than likely result in people coming again only to be disappointed again.

So, therefore in the circumstances, the application of Voice Morris Sambo is removed from the roll and for it to be set down at some later stage, and we will then adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine where I'm informed the matter will be proceeding. The other matter, the other application will be proceeding. We will therefore adjourn now.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 16 SEPTEMBER 1998

ON RESUMPTION ON 16 SEPTEMBER 1998

CHAIRPERSON: We're proceeding today with the application in particular of Mr Hlongwane. Mr Wills, are you ready to commence? Sorry, we put ourselves on record on Monday, but for those persons who weren't present on Monday, I see Mr Black here, I see Mr Patel. Would you kindly just place yourselves on record?

MR PATEL: As it pleases your, Mr Chairman. My name is Mohamed Patel, Advocate Patel. I represent a number of victims. Ten (10) at present, and the numbers are climbing. I'm instructed by attorneys Mthembu and Mahomed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Patel. Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Black. I'm an advocate in Johannesburg, instructed by Mr Nkosi of Ermelo. I'm representing an implicated party, Mr Khaba, Bongani Khaba. My learned friend Mr Mpshe, he said that he could explain the position of Mr Khaba. We have requisitioned him and I understand that he's on his way from Pretoria. But we're here to represent him. We have consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Black. Is that correct, Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: That is the position, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I think in the circumstances, we can proceed. His interests are being protected by yourself. Thank you. Mr Wills, are you in a position to commence?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just before Mr Wills commence. Just for record purposes, Mr Chairman, there are a total of thirteen (13) victims, not all of them have been notified. Those who have not been notified are those in some certain incidents wherein the, in the application, names are not mentioned except that these were just rampant killings. There are about three of them, but the rest have been notified, as well as the implicated. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairman, my apologies. Might I at this stage, for record purposes, just point out to the Committee that the way the notifications in terms of section nineteen (19) of the Act was served was that they were dropped on Maas(?) at one of the implicated persons. My instructions are that several of the people who are implicated has since been deceased and that two people did not get notice. Might I read those names, Mr Chairperson, just for the record so that the Committee is aware of those implicated persons that cannot be here or do not have notice?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SWANEPOEL: The people who have since become deceased are Obed Nhlabathi, Pappa Mbonkane, Christopher Ngwenya and Martino Mgoko. Mr Chairperson, furthermore, the person known as Mphume in the papers, in the application of Hlongwane, to which he refers to as his girlfriend, and a certain Mr Buthelezi did not get notice. I have their notices with me, and they were not served on them by the implicated person on which the notices were served. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Mr Mpshe, perhaps we can see if you could take a look into this and see if those notices can be served, maybe even in terms of section thirty four (34).

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will do that, but according to my report from the investigator, a copy of which I have, it reflects to the effect that Mphume has been served. But I don't want to take the matter any further. I will take it up with the investigating officer. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. I call Mr Hlongwane.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (Sworn States)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, you're an adult male present serving various long term prison sentences at Westville Prison in KwaZulu-Natal?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, my equipment doesn't seem to be working. I wonder if I can change it?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mine either. I think there's something wrong here.

[MACHINE SWITCHED OFF]

ON RESUMPTION

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, can we just wait for mine to be attended to as well.

[MACHINE SWITCHED OFF: ]

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You may proceed, Mr Wills.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, you have testified before this Amnesty Committee in Richards Bay in Durban and in Hammarsdale in respect of incidents which you applied for amnesty for, and you are presently here to talk about your involvement in this area, ie in Wesselton and Davula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: I'm just going to briefly run through your background so members of the public understand where you come from. You have testified extensively in this regard. Mr Chairperson, I don't think there'll be a problem if I lead this evidence. It is already on record.

CHAIRPERSON: If any of the legal representatives have a problem they can interject, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, you come from an IFP supporting family. You joined the IFP Youth in Hammarsdale at a relatively young age and you got involved in the activities of the IFP Youth in Hammarsdale when you were approximately sixteen (16) years of age?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: You soon rose to the ranks of leading one of the units in Hammarsdale and you committed a number of offences as a result of your operations with the IFP in Hammarsdale?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR WILLS: You then were trained as a special constable in the South African Police and you were positioned in the Pietermaritzburg area and amongst other things, you used to guard the IFP person Mr David Ntombela?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: During that time you continued with your activities and as a result of one such incident, you were sought by the South African Police which caused you to run away and hide in Ulundi?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: You were given assistance in respect of attempting to evade the South African Police by various authorities in the IFP in Ulundi. Those persons are detailed in your affidavit, and you eventually ended up at Mkuze camp?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: It was at that stage where you first met the Black Cats?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could just put on record who the Black Cats were.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, can you tell us who the Black Cats were?

MR HLONGWANE: Black Cats were members, youth members of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR WILLS: And from where did they come?

MR HLONGWANE: They were from Ermelo.

MR WILLS: And you met them at Mkuze. Why did they end up in Mkuze? Sorry, you met them - ja, you met them at Mkuze. Why did they come from Ermelo to Mkuze?

MR HLONGWANE: They first went to Ulundi, to IFP offices, and when they arrived they were told that they should proceed to the camp, the Mkuze camp. Therefore they arrived in two kombis at night. One of the kombi was driven by Thomas Buthelezi, a Caprivian. The second kombi was driven by Daluxolo Luthuli, if I'm not mistaken, and Daluxolo said they should be trained because they have been chased from their community in Ermelo and they can't go back to Ermelo because the ANC is killing them in Ermelo. And he also give us an example of one Mkhwanazi, a young man who was killed at the time.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Mr Chairperson, for the benefit of the members of the Committee, I'm proceeding now from paragraph forty nine (49) of Hlongwane's affidavit. It's page one hundred and fifety one (151) of Volume one (1). Were you involved in the training of these persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: You then yourself ended up in Ermelo. Can you tell the members of the Committee how this came about, how you got to Ermelo and what was the purpose for you going to Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: As the Black Cats from Ermelo were in the Mkuze camp, and they were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, it became clear that after the training that I should be sent to Ermelo because some of them couldn't come back to their same areas. Therefore I was deployed or sent to come and kill all ANC members who are against the Black Cats in Ermelo.

MR WILLS: Now, who sent you?

MR HLONGWANE: Daluxolo Luthuli, my commander.

MR WILLS: Who did you get the order through?

MR HLONGWANE: I got the order from Peter Msane.

MR WILLS: And who was Peter Msane?

MR HLONGWANE: Peter is one of the Caprivians who was also involved in the Malan case.

MR WILLS: Yes. What did Peter tell you that Mr Luthuli had told you you must do in Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Peter told me that the Black Cats are not in control of the situation in the community in Ermelo, therefore I had to go and work in Ermelo, to kill the people at Ermelo who are against the IFP so that the trainees, when coming back from Mkuze camp, could be able to get into the community.

MR WILLS: Now, you've indicated in your affidavit, whilst the Black Cats were being trained in Mkuze they were visited by certain person from Ermelo. Can you just tell us about those persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they were visit by Noah Mqobakazi.

MR WILLS: And who was he?

MR HLONGWANE: Noah Mqobakazi was the chairperson of the IFP and also Mkhonza. Mkhonza was the mayor of Davel.

MR WILLS: When you say Noah was the chairperson of the IFP, what area was he the chairperson of the IFP of?

MR HLONGWANE: In Ermelo and the surrounding areas.

MR WILLS: Now, when you received your deployment orders, where did you have to go and who took you there?

MR HLONGWANE: I left the Mkuze camp. It was during the day on which Christopher Zwane and the gentleman you have just mentioned were attending a trial in Ermelo. I came with them and they left me in Noah's car at the trial in court. And another person whom I can't remember, he was in the company of Noah.

MR WILLS: And after the trial, where did you go?

MR HLONGWANE: After the trial I went to stay with Noah at his place.

MR WILLS: Now, you've indicated in your affidavit that you had a meeting with Noah when you arrived at his house. Can you tell us what was discussed at that meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: At the meeting it was concerning the situation in the community which was tense. The situation was tense between the ANC and the Black Cats and he told me that my purpose for being here is to work and he's going to give all the necessary tools that I'm supposed to use in my work.

MR WILLS: And what do you mean by work and what tools are you referring to?

MR HLONGWANE: The work I'm referring to, the killing of the ANC members. When I refer to tools, I mean firearms, bombs.

MR WILLS: And who was going to direct your operations, if anybody?

MR HLONGWANE: Noah.

MR WILLS: And how did you know this?

MR HLONGWANE: I arrived at his place and I called Madlanduna, and Madlanduna told me that, "You are coming to work with this gentleman and you have to take instruction from him and do whatever he tells you", and from there I regarded him as my commander.

MR WILLS: Madlanduna is obviously Daluxolo Luthuli?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you've indicated that you were concerned about the police. Was anything discussed in this regard?

MR HLONGWANE: May you please repeat your question?

MR WILLS: You've indicated that you were concerned about the police. Was anything discussed in this meeting concerning the police?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, we discussed a few things about police.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee?

MR HLONGWANE: After Noah had told me as a chairperson of the meeting, I asked them their relationship with the police, them as in the IFP organisation. He said I shouldn't worry because all the police are in our side, meaning Inkatha, and he also gave me an example of a certain gentleman who was a CID by the name of Roux Nkosi, also known as Ngwenya, and he said those are the people he's working closely with and other policemen.

MR WILLS: Yes. You've mentioned this person Roux Ngwenya in your affidavit, at the bottom of paragraph fifty two (52). This person you now refer to as Roux Nkosi is the same person, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Then just to clear up a correction. In paragraph three (3) you refer to a person by the name of Charles. Is that person actually meant to be China?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it was intended to mean China.

MR WILLS: Now, what did China do?

MR HLONGWANE: China was a member of the Black Cats. He was fetched by Noah after the meeting and he was introduced to me as the young man who knows the place, because when I finished the work I have to leave the area. In the leadership within this area China was the one who knew all these people I'm mentioning and also he knew the roads as to how I was going to manoeuvre and run away after the killings, because I didn't know any of this area and I don't have relatives here.

MR WILLS: And how did you get weapons to do your work?

MR HLONGWANE: I got them from Noah.

MR WILLS: And what did he give you?

MR HLONGWANE: First he gave me his nine short while I was still doing reconnaissance.

CHAIRPERSON: By a nine short, you mean a 9mm pistol?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. And after starting - when I have to start to work I got an AK47 and also a 3.8 revolver.

MR WILLS: You mentioned reconnaissance. What do you mean by that? Can you explain what happened or what you meant by that?

MR HLONGWANE: I'm referring to a situation where I have to go out and investigate or look as to the people I'm going to attack, where they stay, when they wake up, when do they switch off their lights. My first task was to deal with the leadership of the ANC. I started with them, but it was difficult, therefore I started attacking the youth. So, I have to know what kind of a car they use, when they come back home, when do they get out of their homes. For example, I have to wait for Malayisha and he didn't come to his place, he was using a white bakkie. I used to go there and look for him and I couldn't find him. And some other times I went to attack him. Unfortunately someone was driving his car.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, you've indicated earlier that you were new to the area and you knew nothing about Ermelo. So, obviously somebody had to be involved in this process of educating you in this regard. Is that so, and if so, give details?

MR HLONGWANE: May you repeat your question?

MR WILLS: You've said that you didn't know Ermelo. It was your first time of coming to Ermelo.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR WILLS: So, you wouldn't have known where the leadership of the UDF lived and what cars they drove. So, how did you find that out?

MR HLONGWANE: I got the information from China who was a member of the Black Cats.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, you submitted or you signed this affidavit.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: In December 1996.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Subsequent to that you've been tried in respect of certain offences in Ermelo, and in respect of which - or those offences appear in these documents, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: You've also assisted a number of policemen who have come to see you at Westville Prison and in fact taken you out of the prison in order to assist them in their investigations of other persons who have been involved in crimes in this area, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, I want you to tell me, if there were any other policemen who, as a result of those subsequent investigations, you can remember assisted you in your operations in the Ermelo area?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. There are some police I still remember. For example, Von Zweel, Maree, Botha.

MR WILLS: And where were these people stationed?

MR HLONGWANE: Here in Ermelo. And also Meyer, he was in charge of the special constable at the time.

MR WILLS: Also in Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know the units within the police that these persons were attached to?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Roux was in the CID Unit. Von Zweel was in the Special Branch, if I'm not making a mistake. However, our agreement was that they were to help me and they told us that they are on our side and they are going to help us. I was afraid of being arrested and they said we won't be arrested.

MR WILLS: Now, who told you this?

MR HLONGWANE: The chairman of the IFP in Ermelo, Noah.

MR WILLS: And did you ever see any of these policemen helping you?

MR HLONGWANE: Truly all the people were helping me about empty cartridges and the killing of people. I accepted if anything happened, someone was killed and I will accept that it happened and I know it, and then it was accepted no investigation would take place.

MR WILLS: I turn now to paragraph fifty four (54) which you cite here as being your first operation in Ermelo during 1990. Do you see that that's the attack on UDF members at Isikhumplazi. Can you tell the Committee what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember. When the Black Cats came back it became necessary as youth within the ANC that we shall have educated leaders in order to have better organisations. The children took them back to school. Unfortunately they couldn't be accepted by the children at school and also by teachers. Therefore we had to have a meeting, myself, Noah and Thanda. Since they couldn't go to Wesselton which was predominantly ANC or an ANC stronghold, we suggested that they should go to Thembisa because it's near. I have to go to Noah's house so that if they got attacked I should be near to attack whoever attacks them. Therefore I went to the schools. I was with Chris and Jwi Zwane and we talked to the principal and they accepted the children. Unfortunately the children at school never accepted them, the Black Cats.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, sorry to interpose. Is your client relating to the same incident? He seems to be relating to a different incident to the one that you were directing him to.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I think he's just giving us a bit of an extensive background, but I'll try and restrict him to this specific incident. I'm talking, Mr Hlongwane, I want you to look at paragraph fifty four (54). Have you got it? It says, "Attack on UDF members at Isikhumplazi", and it was a shop at Isikhumplazi. Paragraph fifty four (54), not page one hundred and fifety four (154). Paragraph fifty four (54). I'll just place on record, he was looking at the wrong page. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR HLONGWANE: I'm sorry, I was looking at fifty four (54). I was sent by Noah. There are different places in Ermelo and each place has its own people. Isikhumplazi was an ANC stronghold and Noah instructed me to go and attack or shoot at the particular shop which is opposite to Estancia. He took me in the evening to the place and I saw the shop and I went there in the evening and shot at the place.

MR WILLS: You say in your affidavit that you were with China. You say Charles, but again you really mean China, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, Charles is China.

MR WILLS: And do you know if anybody was injured in that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Usually after attacking Noah would tell me the reports from the police from each incident as to what happened. In this particular one he told me one person died.

MR WILLS: Do you know the names of the person?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't.

MR WILLS: Now, the next incident you refer to at paragraph fifty five (55) is the attack on the ANC member Bhobholina's mother. That we know is Mrs Zini Shongwe, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also correct that you were charged in respect of this offence together with some others at a High Court trial in Ermelo, and you were convicted as a result of a guilty plea on the sixteenth (16th) of September 1997?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, is it not so there at that trial you handed in a plea in terms of section 112 of the Criminal Procedure Act, where you explained the circumstances surrounding you killing Mrs Zini Shongwe?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And you were giving a sentence of twelve (12) years for this murder?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Just for the record, members of the Committee, I have, what I think is the final draft of this plea before me. I have requested it to be faxed through to this number. I do undertake to hand the draft plea in or the final plea in as an exhibit. I'm reluctant to hand in this final draft just in case it isn't the final document, but I will get the final document during the course of the day. I've instructed persons to fax it through. Can you - or just before we go off that trial, is it not also so that in respect of the same trial you pleaded guilty to the incident you describe in paragraph fifty nine (59), that's the attack on the ANC operative December?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And also the attempted murder of the three persons mentioned in paragraph fifty eight (58)?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And those three persons who you didn't know at the time, but subsequently at the trial you established were Mlupheki Alphius Ngwenya, Meli Daniel Zwane and Christopher Tofa Sibanyoni.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And in respect of the murder of December, you were also sentenced to a period of imprisonment of twelve (12) years?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And you recall that you were sentenced to a period of eight (8) years for the three (3) attempted murders?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And then at that trial as well you pleaded guilty to the possession of a 9mm pistol and twelve (12) rounds of 9mm ammunition in respect of which you were convicted and also sentenced to, and you recall a period of four (4) years' imprisonment.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you describe to us the circumstances surrounding the murder of Bhobholina's mother, Mrs Zini Shongwe?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can try to explain. Sabata was a friend to, (Interpreter: I missed the name).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please repeat. The interpreter missed the name. You said Sabata was a friend of?

MR HLONGWANE: Bhobholina. The death of Sabata was caused by Bhobholina. We were not around. However, a telephone call was received and it was from Noah and he took us to the place and we arrived only to find that he has been killed or attacked. After that I was supposed to investigate the cause of his death. I was told that he went out with his friend Bhobholina to Wesselton where he was attacked, I mean the Inkatha member. I took the report as it is to Noah and reported it as I have stated, and Noah instructed me to search, hunt and kill Bhobholina. I hunted him day and night. I couldn't find him. I took a report to Noah. Noah was very frustrated and he said he better call Daluxolo at Ulundi because seeing as though I don't know my work, and why can't I shoot Bhobholina's mother if I'm able to find the mother, because if I shoot the mother Bhobholina will come back for the funeral. Therefore we can shoot him at the funeral. I would say it was myself, China, Makunga. Makunga is a surname, another man who was working at the Ermelo Mine, Mtunzi, Obed, Jomo and another one which I remembered later it's Bafana Khumalo. We went to the house. When we arrived at the place I positioned them, some at the windows, some by the door. Jomo was holding a litre which was half filled with petrol with a string which therefore it was a petrol bomb. There was a bigger house which was Bhobholina's mother's house. That's the house where I went to investigate to look for him. I couldn't find him and China was armed with an M26 handgrenade. I got into the house alone. The others were surrounding the house so that if Bhobholina come out through the windows they could kill him. I searched the whole house. I didn't find him. I went back to the kitchen to see if he's not there. I asked the mother and therefore that we shall go to the kitchen to see if Bhobholina is not there, and at the kitchen I shot her on her chest and that's how she was killed. And before we left the place I instructed China to remove the pin of the handgrenade and throw it into the house and thereafter I went back to Noah and gave him the report. He was so happy about the report and he said we must wait for the night vigil. Unfortunately since Sabata was dead, there were so many police around because Sabata was a Black Cat member. Therefore there were so many police on that particular day, we couldn't enter to the Bhobholina night vigil and we couldn't kill him. That's where I end.

MR WILLS: Now, you haven't mentioned anything in your affidavit about the fact that China threw this handgrenade. Can you tell the Committee why this is?

MR HLONGWANE: I can try and explain before the Committee. It might look as if in some instances I'm adding something. I'm not really adding. This application were done earlier and the things that I'm relating to are things which happened later and things which I was charged for. For example, I haven't mentioned some of the police because I when I was writing this I had to go back to the prison and after I have completed the papers I was sitting in prison, I found that there were some differences in my papers because I remembered some of the things. Therefore I wrote some of them aside to remember when I give you this.

MR WILLS: I want to now turn to the attack on the Thembisa scholars which you describe in paragraph fifty seven (57) and fifty eight (58) of your affidavit. Have you got those paragraphs available? Paragraph fifty seven (57) and paragraph fifty eight (58).

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I understand.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about that incident, the attack on the Thembisa scholars? Sorry, just before you do that. Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I just thought that I'd add that this attack on Bhobholina's mother occurred on the thirtieth (30th) of the seventh (7th) 1991, and that is gleaned from the indictment in this matter. Okay.

MR HLONGWANE: The death of the school children ... (intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, did I say September? Thirtieth (30th) of July 1991. 30/7/91. Okay, just concentrate on the attack on the Thembisa scholars at paragraph fifty seven (57).

MR HLONGWANE: The children were killed because Noah instructed me to kill them because they didn't accept the Black Cats children to school in the same place. The children refused. I can now remember. At the time the school children from Thembisa refused to accept the Black Cats children as school kids, and therefore we had a campaign with China to kill the children, the school children from Thembisa School, and we got instruction from Noah to do that. And we meet some of the young boys, and China explained that these were from the Thembisa School.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Hlongwane. Thembisa School, was it a junior school, or a junior secondary school, or a senior secondary school? Do you know?

MR HLONGWANE: If I'm not making a mistake, it was an HP.

CHAIRPERSON: What's an HP?

MR HLONGWANE: An HP starts from standard three - start from standard one to standard five.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, is the name of the school Thembisa or is Thembisa a location?

MR HLONGWANE: The name of the school is Thembisa and it's also in the Thembisa area.

MRS KHAMPEPE: And is Thembisa area here in Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, Miss Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue please.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how this incident occurred please?

MR HLONGWANE: It occurred because, as I've stated, they refused to accept the Black Cats children as scholars.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Hlongwane, you've told us that. Please listen to my questions. I'm wanting you to tell us what you did, not why you did it, what you did. How you killed these people. Give us details of the actual incident.

MR HLONGWANE: We met two young boys. When we met them China said these two boys were from the Thembisa School. They've too got a nine short, referring to them. We then shot at them.

MR WILLS: Now, who were you with that night?

MR HLONGWANE: With China.

MR WILLS: So, there were just the two of you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know if these boys - how many people you hit or were injured or killed?

MR HLONGWANE: I shot two.

MR WILLS: And do you know if they died?

MR HLONGWANE: Noah confirmed that they died.

MR WILLS: And do you know the names of these people?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't.

MR WILLS: Have you ever been charged in respect of this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR WILLS: Okay. You turn in paragraph fifty eight (58) to an incident where you say

"One night during 1990 I was with Mdu and my girlfriend ..."

Where you again shot scholars. Now, we know from the indictment that this was an incident which occurred on the same night as you killed December, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, for the record, Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, this incident actually occurred, according to the indictment, on the seventh (7th) of October 1991, and the same refers to the next incident which is on paragraph fifty nine (59). Can you tell us what happened in respect of the three persons who you shot at in this regard?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. We were coming out from Thembisa. We were visiting Mphume Hlatswayo. I was together with Mdu. I think his surname is Mtaung. As we were proceeding down towards Estancia where it is an Inkatha stronghold where I used to protect the Inkatha people, three young boys came singing. They were singing ANC slogans. Mdu asked me, "Can you hear these boys". I said, "Yes, I can hear them", and they were coming towards us. I pushed Mphume aside and I was left with Mdu. Mdu was standing from my behind and I shot at these boys and I was sure that they were ANC because they were singing ANC slogan. That's why I shot at them.

MR WILLS: Now, you were charged and convicted in respect of the attempt murder of these persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they didn't die. I was charged with attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they physically injured as a result of the shooting? Did you hit any of them with bullets?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, Mr Chairperson, they were injured.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I'm also endeavouring to get the medical reports in respect of those injuries faxed through. If, however, they don't arrive today I will ensure that the Committee is furnished with those reports. Mr Hlongwane, can we turn now to the attack on the ANC operative December, which again you were convicted for and you were given a twelve (12) year sentence.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, my lawyer, December is the name of a person whom I killed.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you were convicted in respect of killing that person?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: I arrived in Ermelo and I was staying with Noah and he told me that there is an Mkhwanazi young chap who is a member of the Black Cats, and they were staying at Vusi because they were chased out of the community by the community. But this other one was still in the community. He was accosted or arrested or taken by the ANC members who assaulted him, and before he died, December broke a pavement and he hit him on his head and blood came out of his nostrils and ears and he died. This incident worried Noah very much and also Christina Khaba, and also Mr Ngobeni, the councillor who was present when we were discussing this case, and it was found it necessary that I should kill December.

MR WILLS: Just before you rush. You refer to a person, Christina Khaba. Who was she?

MR HLONGWANE: Christina Khaba, she was a chairlady of the IFP in Ermelo.

MR WILLS: What? The Women's Brigade or the whole organisation?

MR HLONGWANE: No, it was the Women's Brigade.

MR WILLS: Yes. And the other person you mentioned who was at this meeting was? You said there was Noah?

CHAIRPERSON: He said the Councillor Ngobeni.

MR HLONGWANE: Ngobeni.

MR WILLS: Thank you. And where was he a councillor?

MR HLONGWANE: In Ermelo.

MR WILLS: In Wesselton or in Ermelo town?

MR HLONGWANE: In the township.

MR WILLS: Which was Wesselton?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know whether it was Thembisa.

MR WILLS: Okay.

MR HLONGWANE: Or Wesselton.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the mike was off.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, the interpreter has indicated that he didn't hear what you said. Could you just repeat what you've said? The interpreter didn't catch it.

MR HLONGWANE: After the meeting we were discussing over the death of December. No, no, the meeting where we were discussing about December, the meeting was held at KwaMazakhele. That's where Noah stays, and Christina was staying at Estancia and that's where December stays. There's a hostel in the community where December stays. Therefore we have to drive to Estancia and leave Christina. We took a car and parked it outside of a beer hall and we walked together with Noah, and he pointed a house and he said, "Since you have young boys to help you, you can take anyone of them to look around for him, but what I want you to do is to kill him". Therefore I did as I was requested, to look around his whereabouts. On the particular day on which he was injured, I was with Mdu. As we were from Thembisa going towards Estancia, I asked Mdu to stop for a moment and I went and knock at the house. And it was quiet. I will say he kept quiet. I knocked again, and he asked, "Who are you". And I said, "We are police", and he opened, December opened. It was at night. I saw him. He was light in complexion and he was heavily built. I looked him straight in the eye and I was sure it was him. I took out my firearm and shot him.

MR WILLS: Yes. For the record, this December's name is December Ephraim Ndlovu?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: You then in - sorry, you got a twelve (12) year sentence in respect of this murder?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR WILLS: You then, in paragraph sixty one (61) on page one hundred and fifty five (155), talk about further attacks on ANC scholars. Can you tell the Committee what you did there?

MR HLONGWANE: During that time when I was in Ermelo I failed to get the leaders. I told Noah that I can't get these leaders, and that's when Noah said that any of the ANC and since China know them very well, the youth is going to show me all the youths and anyone whom we ever meet on our way we should shoot them. And unfortunately we met these young boys from night school. China was in front, I was with China, and most of the operation China will always be in front of me so that he could recognise the people before me. And China on that particular day confirmed these were members of the ANC and then I took my firearm and shot them, after China have confirmed that they were ANC members. That's how they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an indication as to how many people you shot?

MR HLONGWANE: There were three, Chairperson.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, can you give an indication of when this instruction was given to you by Noah?

MR HLONGWANE: After I failed to get ANC leaders attacked, I didn't even kill a single leader. I can't remember exactly the exact dates, but after I've tried day and nights looking for the leaders, and I can't specifically know exactly which particular meeting where the instruction was given after I failed to get Ndebele, Malahlele and all those people. Ngwenya, the lawyer, he was one of the people in the list, because I was given a list of the ANC leadership. So, after I failed to get all of them, Noah said, "You came here to kill the ANC".

MRS KHAMPEPE: How long did it take you to try and kill the ANC leaders? Did it take you a year, did it take you a few months after you had been initially given instructions to do so?

MR HLONGWANE: It took me some few weeks, not a year.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Just, you indicated the names of certain ANC people who Noah wanted killed. Can you just indicate them again for me please?

MR HLONGWANE: It was John Ndebele of whom it was rumoured that the MK which was attacking the Inkatha people were using his house as a hiding place. Ngwenya was their lawyer who represented the ANC members. Mam Nkosi, I can't remember but he was in a particular Committee. This person was in a particular Committee. That was Miss Nkosi. Malayisha or Malahlele, I don't remember well, who was travelling in a bakkie and had a big house, his bakkie was white. That was the list that was given to me.

MR WILLS: Now, was this actually a ... (intervention)

MR HLONGWANE: And also Silas who was staying in Estancia and he ran away from the police, because after the killing of people he left the place to go and stay at Isikhumplazi.

MR WILLS: Now, was this a physical written list or was it just a list given to you to remember? What was the position?

MR HLONGWANE: The names were given to me verbally and we're not supposed to write it down. You just discuss, we're not supposed to write anything down. Those were then the names that were given to me in the meeting.

MR WILLS: Yes. Okay. I want to turn now to the incident you refer to in paragraph sixty two (62) on page one hundred and fifty six (156). It's the attack on the ANC's Isikhumplazi Central Committee member. Is it not so that we have subsequently learnt that this person was actually called Mrs Tilly Nkosi?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, Tilly.

MR WILLS: Can you describe this ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Nkosi? N-K-O-S-I or M-K-H-O-S-O? What's the surname?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, possibly my learned friend Mr Patel would be able to help with the spelling, but I think it's N-K-O-Z-I. We're sure that the christian name or the first name is Tilly, T-I-L-L-Y.

MR PATEL: As I have it, Mr Chairman, it's N-K-O-S-I.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Patel.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, can you describe this incident? What happened here?

MR HLONGWANE: After leaving Noah's place, it was myself, Noah and - let me explain how the surrounding or Noah's home how it looks like. Noah had a house in Thembisa. He left Thembisa. When the community was fighting against Charles Maseko. Charles Maseko was working in one of the offices here. Unfortunately one million disappeared and he was suspected as a culprit. So therefore since he was trained as a soldier, he has to leave his home and go and stay with Charles. Now, I'm talking about the Maseko house. I'm talking about the house of Charles Maseko. On this particular night when Ms Nkosi was injured, it was myself, Charles Maseko, the owner of the house, Noah and China. Noah, roundabout six (6) o'clock, said, "Today we are going to kill Ms Nkosi". Charles Maseko said, "If we can be able to kill this woman, she's a troublesome woman in Wesselton, and she's the one who decides women", and we all laughed and we left to Wesselton, myself and China. When we were at Wesselton on that particular night we meet her. She was having a baby on her back. China confirmed that it is her. If I remember well, at that instant a car which was a bakkie carrying furniture, a furniture bakkie came and it stopped at her gate. And then she bent. I did the U-turn and went back to her. She was about the distance from where I am to where my lawyer is sitting and she stood upright.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that distance, just for record purposes is about eight (8) paces. Would you agree?

MR WILLS: As you please, Mr Chairperson.

MR HLONGWANE: And then she stood up straight with her head up. I wanted to hit her forehead. The bullet went just underneath her eye. The car ran away quickly. I tried to shoot from the back, but I saw the child and she ran. And she ran around the corner and that's what happened and I gave the report to Noah and he was very frustrated. He said I should have even killed the child.

MR WILLS: Did you find out whether or not Ms Nkosi had been injured or how extensive her injuries were?

MR HLONGWANE: After working or after thirty (30) minutes or an hour, the policewoman called speaking to Noah. After each and every attack, whether the person was killed, it's a corpse or whether the person is in hospital, the police will give a report as to whether the person survive or escape death or not, and I will say it was after thirty (30) minutes and we receive a call. They said he escaped, she's in hospital.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, I want to turn now to the incident you describe in paragraph - sorry, before we do that. You've never been prosecuted or charged in respect of this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, let's turn to look at this incident you describe at paragraph sixty three (63) on page one hundred and fifty six (156) of Volume one (1). That is the attack on ANC member Crucket. Can you describe to the Committee what you did?

MR HLONGWANE: It's a man who was known as Mr Crucket. I won't be able to say whether this is his name or surname. He was referred to as Crucket. She was at the back opposite of Christina Khaba. She had the problem with Christina because it was said that comrade normally assembled at his place and we were told that we shall go and kill him because that's where the ANC is based. Therefore I took China who pointed the house to me, in the house. It was a big house, when you enter the home the gate is standing directly to the entrance to the garage. China explained that it's a grown-up man who has hair. We left Noah's place and we were going to do both the operations on the same night. We left Isikhumplazi after shooting Ms Nkosi and that particular night we went to Estancia. We didn't first get into the house, we went out to confirm if he's there and they found it and Christina confirmed that she was there, and therefore I entered into the shop and China went down to stand by the corner. I entered wearing a jean. My gun was inside the jean and I was wearing a T-shirt over which was COSATU T-shirt, red in colour. And the gun was right in front. This Crucket came and he went up. When coming back he was towards my direction and I shot at him, and he started crawling or rolling. I couldn't jump because there was a fence and there was only a small hole where you can take out goods or money. So, I couldn't therefore shoot him while he was crawling under this counter. There was shooting from the house because there was one young man who was a policeman by a Zulu surname. I think it might be the person who was shooting, but I'm not sure. So, therefore we were in a crossfire and we started running away, and we went back to Noah to give the report. At the same time a telephone call came to say he's in hospital.

MR WILLS: As far as you know, this person did not die?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the telephone call came to say he didn't die, he's in hospital.

MR WILLS: And again you haven't been prosecuted or charged in respect of this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I wasn't.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, let's turn to page one hundred and fifty seven (157), paragraph sixty four (64), the attack on ANC member in Kathi Township in Ermelo.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can remember.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about this?

MR HLONGWANE: As I've said, we got the mandate to attack the youth. On this particular night we were out on our campaign to kill the youth. When getting out of Noah's place we jumped one street and a second. At a ground, referring probably soccer field, a young boy came and China was in front of me as usual, and China said this is an ANC member. He talked to this young boy and I was coming. After talking to this young boy and he passed him, and he signalled me and I shot at the boy.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in your affidavit that this boy fell to the ground, but do you know if he died?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an estimation of that boy's age? You refer to him as a young boy. Can you give us any idea of how old he would have been?

MR HLONGWANE: If I'm not making a mistake, he was thirteen (13), fourteen (14) or fifteen (15).

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, is it also not true that you've subsequently established that this boy's name was in fact Willie Frans Strydom?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the incidents you've been relating to this morning are the incidents which you conducted in Ermelo, is that correct, in the township surrounding Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you remember any other incidents that you were involved in in Ermelo other than those that you've mentioned?

MR HLONGWANE: No, there are no other incidences that I was involved.

MR WILLS: Now, at the time you were operating in Ermelo, is it not so that you were staying in the same house that Noah Mqobakazi was staying in?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you got in paragraph sixty five (65), you mention that you got a warning by an SAP member to keep a low profile. Can you just describe what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: Roux Nkosi in his CID together with Maree, those are the people who were to protect me or make sure that I'm protected. Were things to happen we're supposed to discuss it between myself, Noah and these two men, and they advised me to be careful. That was the time where things were intensified because the Committee was complaining that there is a man who speaks - someone who speaks Zulu. It looked like to them it was a policeman from KwaZulu who was killing people in the community. Therefore they suggested that I should keep a low profile.

MR WILLS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I see it's eleven (11) o'clock and I'm going to now go to the incidents at Davula, which is a separate area. Would it be an appropriate time to take the tea adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this would be an appropriate time. We'll take the tea adjournment now.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, you were just about to proceed to the Davula incidents.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont)

Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, before we get onto the Davula incidents, I want to put something to you. I've been approached by a representative of the ANC community, Mr Ndebele, during the tea adjournment, who informs me that the Thembisa School that you referred to in your evidence was in fact a secondary school. Are you in a position to doubt that or to challenge that?

MR HLONGWANE: I will agree with him.

MR WILLS: Yes. And further, that the person you mentioned as Frans Strydom who you say you shot in respect of paragraph sixty four (64), that was in fact incorrect. The person, according to Mr Ndebele, who was shot in this incident was a person by the name of Jackson Kubheka. What is your comment on that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I know that.

MR WILLS: And that this person was in fact over the age of eighteen (18) years old.

MR HLONGWANE: I will agree.

MR WILLS: Now, the person you referred to as Willie Frans Strydom was a person who was killed in respect of the incident that you refer to in paragraph sixty one (61). This person had been attending night school and he was one of the persons who you shot coming from the night school.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, he was one of the three.

MR WILLS: Yes. And Mr Ndebele tells me that this person at the time of his death was actually twenty eight (28) years of age. Do you want to comment on that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would say they were older.

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR HLONGWANE: All the three of them.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Okay. I want to turn now to the Davula incidents and we're going to start at the bottom of page one hundred and fifty seven (157), at paragraph sixty six (66). The first question I want to ask you, Mr Hlongwane, is how did it come about that you left Ermelo and went to Davula?

MR HLONGWANE: On one particular day I was at Noah's place. Someone by the name of Bonjesi came.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you repeat that name please?

MR HLONGWANE: I'm sorry, it was Mr Mkhonza.

MR WILLS: And who was this Mr Mkhonza?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr Chairperson, Mkhonza was the mayor of Davel. He said to me, Mkhonza, "I have a problem in Davel", and he was asked what problem was it. He said all the ANC members have run to Davel and he said we shall go as soon as possible, and he said, "We want you to come and do what you did in Ermelo". And I said to him, "Mr Mkhonza, I'm not able to do that because I was stationed in Ermelo and I'm working under Noah". We had an argument. We argued about it with this man also known as Bonjesi, and finally he said, "I shall go to Noah's office and discuss this with Noah". And I said to him this is a good suggestion because I cannot on my own leave this area and go and work in another place because Madlanduna deployed me to work in Ermelo under the commandership of Noah. Therefore we left and I went to Noah's offices.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, may I interpose. Were you not at Mr Noah's place when Mr Mkhonza approached you about this to assist him at Davel? I thought that's what you said initially when you started your evidence.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Did Noah have offices other than his house?

MR HLONGWANE: Ms Chairperson, he was working at the municipal offices.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: Mkhonza came together with Noah and said the young man from Nelspruit who was sent by Mashinini and they burned houses belonging to Inkatha members at Davel. I said to Noah, "Since you are here, I'm under your hands, what do you say about this". He said, "You shall go". And we said to him, "I can't go during the day because my work is to kill people. So if I go during the day the community will recognise me. So I will not be able to go around freely in the community". Therefore I sent some Black Cats men first to the area. They used Mr Mkhonza's car. These young men, the Black Cats young men, went to the area. On the same day, later, Malahlele came. Malahlele is a member of the IFP in the town and he was travelling in a van or bakkie. And there, after his arrival, I left to Mkhonza's place. I arrive and slept over. On the following day Mkhonza called the police station at Davel and another man by the name of Felani Mthethewa came in the company with a white person who was clad in a uniform. They were driving an Ace AP van. They all came in. We greeted them by shaking hands. I also greeted the white man. Felani said to me, "I'm happy about your arrival because what you did in Ermelo it's what we expect you to do here", and I said to him, "I can't talk to you because I don't even know you and I don't even know this white man". And he said, "You don't have to worry about this white man because the white policemen in this area hates the ANC", and he said to me that I'll travel together with this policeman. I got into the police van and Felani will point out to me all the families which have to be attacked. I entered together with the driver and Felani, we were three and we started driving slowly and Felani was pointing at all the houses. In the morning I was with Mkhonza. They pointed out one house at the corner which I discovered later to be belonging to Malinga, and we patrolled the area and when coming back we went via the Malinga house, and we just have talks with him, this Felani, and he left. We dropped him off.

MR WILLS: Sorry. Mr Hlongwane, you said that when you were at Mr Mkhonza's house, I want to take you back to where Felani Mthethwa and this white policeman came. Was Mr Mkhonza there at that stage?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And did you have a meeting at that stage?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Between those three persons and yourself?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And can you tell us what was discussed at that meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: We discussed about the attack of houses at night.

MR WILLS: Now, you've made a statement in respect of certain of your activities in Davula in your application here. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR WILLS: But you also were subsequently, after this application was submitted, approached by members of the Special Investigation Task Unit operating under the then Transvaal Attorney-General Mr D'Oliveira. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And you made a statement which I will show you, which is in Afrikaans, which I showed you yesterday. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Chairperson, I was provided with this statement by one of my learned friends, the person is acting for some of Mr Hlongwane's accomplices. I've made copies and I believe that the legal representatives have each been handed a copy, but the Committee members haven't. I beg leave to hand this in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills. Mr Mpshe, do you have any idea as to what exhibit number we've reached, or should we just call this E1. E for Ermelo.

MR MPSHE: I think that would be apposite, Mr Chairman, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll call this E1 and then the other ones, if we get any further, will be E2, E3 etcetera.

STATEMENT HANDED IN MARKED EXHIBIT E1

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Now, you had an opportunity to go through this statement with me yesterday, and do you confirm the contents of this statement as being a true and accurate reflection of what occurred in Davula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's correct.

MR WILLS: Now, in that statement you refer to two attacks. I know that statement is in Afrikaans and you can't read Afrikaans, but the first attack where you attacked two houses. Can you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us what happened in those attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: We left in the company of the Black Cats to Davel. Arriving there we attacked two houses.

MR WILLS: And what do you mean you attacked two houses? What did you do to those houses?

MR HLONGWANE: We burnt them.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is "we"? You and who else?

MR HLONGWANE: I'm referring to myself with the Black Cats.

MR WILLS: Can you remember the names of any of the Black Cats who were with you on that occasion?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember some of them.

MR WILLS: Can you please tell the Committee?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Obed Nhlabathi, Bafana Khumalo, China and Sdiga.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in the statement that you've handed in that you also fired shots. Do you confirm that? At the houses that you attacked.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR WILLS: Now, you've indicated in your application and in the statement that I'm referring to that a person, a woman, was burnt to death in one of the houses in that attack, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the house was burnt and the person was inside, and was also hurt or stabbed, and before we could enter the house they were busy trying to cease the fire with the hosepipe. I get into the house and I shot about two times and the Black Cats entered into the other bedroom and killed the woman.

MR WILLS: Now, you also speak in your statement of a second attack where, and I'll just remind you very briefly, where you talk about you being supplied with petrol and being divided up into about five groups. Can you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember that.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how it came about that that attack started?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr Mkhonza was complaining about the ANC in Ermelo and Noah will give me instruction to go to the place. It was myself, him and Mr Felani. And Mr Felani have to left to go and answer the telephone calls so that when the communities calls the police to complain he answers the calls but never come to investigate the scene of the crime. It therefore so happened that Felani came one day during the day and we talked with him and finalised everything, and Noah came. Roux also came together with Von Zweel.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, when you refer to Felani going to answer the telephone call, which telephone is he going to answer?

MR HLONGWANE: He was supposed to go back to sit on those lines where the community - are given the community to lay complaints if they have complaints within the community to the police station.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue.

MR HLONGWANE: Roux Nkosi came. It was Von Zweel, together with Von Zweel. I've forgotten the third white man, but I think I'll remember later. They came to Mkhonza's place. At the time before I was arrested, when entering Davel, you're coming from Ermelo going towards Bethal, you turn along the streets which enters the place and the first house it's at the corner, it's the Mkhonza house, these men started at Mkhonza's house and they found Mkhonza and Noah at the place. And then they left, all of them, in cars going to the station commander at the police station. That's where Noah informed that ten (10) minutes will be enough for Sadam to burn about ten (10) houses. And then they came back and gave me the time and before they left Davel they passed us. It was myself, Roux, Maree, and they said to me, "Please, we give you ten (10) minutes, do the work effectively", and I said, "Yes, I will do the work", and they left. And they said the police won't be present and when we're finished working we must be free. Therefore in the evening they took a car to fetch twenty five (25) litre of petrol, that's Mkhonza's car. I called China as I've already given him instructions on petrol bombs. So we made petrol bombs and we were running short of bottles. I told them we have to do the work quickly and I told him to bring two litres of plastics and I cut them on the top. There were five group, but the fifth one died. We have to abandon because we didn't have enough firearms. So I took the other who were belonging to the fifth group and add them to the other four groups. There was on the other group Mandla Maluleka has his, December was holding his and the last one was with Dingaan Maluleka. So, we were four groups under these four men I've just mentioned.

MR WILLS: Now, you mention in paragraph seventy one (71) of your amnesty application, your affidavit attached to your amnesty application, at the bottom of the page one hundred and fifty nine (159), that there were three groups. Are you saying you were wrong in this regard and that you can recall now that there were five groups or four? What was the position?

MR HLONGWANE: I made a mistake in saying that there were three. There were five and we didn't have enough arms because each group had to have a firearm so that if someone shoot back at them they could be able to defend themselves. So, since we were five and we abandoned one and they became four, all of them.

MR WILLS: Now, you mention the names of certain persons in that paragraph seventy one (71). Can you see on the top of page one hundred and sixty (160)?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see.

MR WILLS: Were those person involved? That is Noah, China. You say China had a 38 revolver and Bongani had a home-made firearm. Bongani Khaba.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, Noah was present with his issued or lawful 9mm. China was there having the 3.8. My lawyer, I tried to explain about Bongani. He was not armed with a home-made firearm, he was holding a shotgun Mossberg 500.

MR WILLS: Yes. So, that's in fact a mistake in your affidavit. You say a home-made firearm, but you've corrected that. It was a shotgun that Bongani Khaba had?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Yes, it was Mr Mkhonza's shotgun.

MR WILLS: Yes, okay.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, just for my own clarity, I'm a little confused. On page seventy one (71), the page that you've just referred to, right at the bottom Mr Hlongwane seems to be saying that China also headed one of the groups. However, in his evidence he has spoken of Mandla Maluleka, December Mthethewa, Dingaan Maluleka as having headed the groups and China's name has not been mentioned. Can you just clarify that aspect for me?

MR HLONGWANE: Thanks, Mr Chairperson, it was China. Mandla Maluleka has his own group too. China, Mandla Maluleka, December and myself we all ... (intervention)

MRS KHAMPEPE: What about Dingaan Maluleka?

MR HLONGWANE: Dingaan Maluleka was in the fifth group which was abandoned.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Can you tell us what you did, what these five groups did that night?

MR HLONGWANE: I knew the houses and also the groups knew the houses. Mkhonza said if there are those who don't want the houses, in each group there should be someone from Davel who knows the houses, but in my group I was the one who knows the houses and each group had to burn two houses. The houses that were burnt were about eight (8) to nine (9). I said I've got ten (10) minutes. In ten (10) minutes time they should be at Mkhonza's place. Mine left to the next door. As I'm sitting here, Mkhonza was about at the end part of the hall or the wall of the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: That's about twenty (20) paces.

MR HLONGWANE: I would say so. And he was walking around in that area. The Black Cats men, since this thing was really in their blood, they didn't want to leave. I told them they should guard the house at Mkhonza's place and guard, and they shouldn't leave or shoot because if you start shooting - if you shoot it means you'll be giving a signal that we should come back to see that will be happening at the house. Therefore we tried the first house to enter. So they were prepared. It looks like that they locked all the doors with pipes or anything. Like the light on lights and they switched them off. And late Mandla kicked the kitchen door and he stand aside and I entered. I'm sorry, before I enter Mandla kicked it, entered and stand in front of the door and fired two shots on air. I entered and then I pointed the boys and asked them to come in. They get into the house and went into the rooms and they found one mother in the house. They hacked and stabbed until she died. And then a young boy came out running trying to get out through us. I followed him and the Black Cats followed him, and they found him or catch up with him at the shop and I don't know what they did, I don't know whether they killed him or not, but they did something to him.

MR WILLS: Yes, before we finish that. You've stated in paragraph seventy two (72) of your affidavit that

"A teenage boy came running out and ran into the toilets. I followed him and I shot him."

Do you still stand by that evidence?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I think it is a mistake. This is an incident which took place another place, not in this house. This young boy I'm talking about, he came out of the house, he runned, and the Black Cats followed him and hacked him. He was not shot at the shop.

MR WILLS: Yes. Yes, and I think, Mr Chairperson, and members of the Committee, we have established that the person who died in this attack was a person, we just established this yesterday, was the name of Matthew Mthweni, and he in fact died of stab wounds and wasn't in fact shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the person referred to as having run to the shop?

MR WILLS: Run to the toilet out of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: But we haven't heard that one yet, because he's only talked about a boy who ran out of the house and was chased by the Black Cats to a shop. Was it a toilet at the shop? And then he said it was a different attack, this one in the toilet. So perhaps we can just clear that up.

MR HLONGWANE: Chairperson, at this particular house the boy didn't run to a toilet, he ran out of the house to the shops. That's where the Black Cats caught up with him and hacked him and stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an incident at all where a boy ran into a toilet?

MR HLONGWANE: You mean referring the past incident?

CHAIRPERSON: This incident referred to in paragraph seventy two (72), did it happen? In paragraph seventy two (72) you say

"A teenage boy came running out and ran into the outside toilet. I followed him and shot at him."

Did that ever happen anywhere, at any time?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, but not in Ermelo. It's not an Ermelo incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Where about did this incident take place with the boy running into the toilet? It comes under the heading as being in Davula.

MR HLONGWANE: I've stated that it is a mistake that he ran to the toilet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Okay. You say you were involved in these attacks, burning houses with these groups. Can you tell us what happened when you came back? Where did you go when you had finished the attacks? .....(tape ends)

MR HLONGWANE: ... time is over, we should take the boys out. I tried to get them out, but they all ran around and Mkhonza himself has to start yelling at them and said they should get out, talking to them in a serious language. I will say after the attacks we'll run back to Mkhonza's place and even in this particular time we ran back to Mkhonza's place, and after that the police car, known as the Casper came. It stopped at the gate and there was Felani. He talked to Mkhonza and asked whether all the boys are all back. Mkhonza asked me whether the boys are all back and I confirmed that they were all back. And then there were policemen in the car, about nine (9) of them, they were all white and Felani was the only black official. As the houses were burning and people crying we were in this Casper and we were travelling around. The Casper didn't stop in any particular scene, it just passed around the area. And we went to a place at the soccer field. There was a lady who was crawling on her knees and she was crying, and they switched on the Casper's bright lights and when we look at the ground we saw a boy trying to jump a fence. We ask what was happening to the child and "what was happening to you", and she said someone was trying to rape her. "As we were doing that, you came running trying to jump the fence or a concrete wall". I took out my firearm, aimed at him, tried to shoot at him and he fell on the other side of the fence. I don't know whether he died or not. And that's where it ends.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, the details you've described are described in the statement which we've handed in, in the last exhibit, the Afrikaans statement. Now, they vary quite considerably from the details you have provided in your amnesty application. Can you tell us why that is or how that came about?

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to ask the Committee, also the legal representatives who are present here to have a look at the bundle of statements which I made. Statements which I made after police came several times, different policemen came to me several times. Police will come to me and ask me, "Do you remember what happened in this and this", and I gave them the information. I'm not saying what I've written in the statement is not true, but it's not complete as I've completed - as the one that I compiled later while I was talking to these policemen then I could be able to list all the incidents correctly.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, I want to refer to paragraph seventy six (76) on page one hundred and sixty one (161). You talk about having a shootout with ANC members. Can you refer to that? Mr Hlongwane, can you refer to paragraph seventy six (76) on page one hundred and sixty one (161) of your affidavit?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see that, sir. Before I explain here. In Davel, after the burning of the house, I realised the need that - I realised it's not going to work because there are ANC members who like to avenge, so I have to get people posted in Davel since it was not necessary to have them in Ermelo. So each and every house we posted young men and one day as I was coming to check my posted men. I was with Jomo, Bongani Khaba and Sdiga. I started from Mkhonza's place. I found Bongani. I ask the whereabout of Dumisani. Bongani said, "Dumisani have just left. He is going to Felani's place". And I said, "Okay, I'm going". And I passed to another place where there's a lady by the name of Gumbe. I checked that place and thereafter I went to another man's place by the name of Mathibula, I don't remember if he was an Ikatha member. I found some young men there. I asked them how they progressed. Unfortunately I had three (3) rounds in my firearm and I realised that things were still fine. When coming back I met about fifty young men. They asked me how does it come about that the ANC people are getting killed. They stopped us in the middle of a road, they were holding stones and fork spade and spades. They said during the times of the Black Cats, it was Sibusiso, I don't remember well, I think he ran away with my identity or my photo to join the ANC in Davel and they already know me and I could see that as they start ask questions to this man that there will be problems. And I asked Sdiga and Jomo to keep quiet and I told them that it's better that I speak to these men to avoid any conflict. The information they had was that there was a policeman from KwaZulu who is killing ANC members. Things became tough. I was armed with this 9mm which I got from Noah and there were many and they were having stones on their hands. I pulled out my firearm. This shining gun like the glass windows at the interpreters' booths and it is - I mean the frame, the steel frame. They said it's a toy and they came towards me. I shot one on the arm and I realised that I only had three (3) bullets, and when I shot Sdiga and Bongani realised there's going to be a fight and they ran away and I was left. I gave them a distance to run away and they didn't enter Mkhonza's place, they passed the place and ran. I shot one on the arm, they all scattered and I was left with two shots and I ran away. They followed me. I realised they were coming close to me. I kneeled on the ground and I shot back. They stop and I started running again. And we ran until we entered a farm, a white man's farm. When we arrived there Sdiga was stabbed by the comrades and he had been stitched on his stomach. As we were running and then I shot the last one. The police in Davel has already noticed this and they were running on the other side of the road trying to stop us at the front. I said to them stomach down. They lay on the ground on their stomachs and then we hid in the grass. They came to the grass because they saw us and then they found us. They took us. They didn't arrest us or handcuff us. They took us and Felani asked me, "What are you exactly doing. You could have been shot because we didn't know it was you". But they said, "No, you don't have to worry because nothing will happen". At the time we were at the police station ... (intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, sorry, Mr Hlongwane, I want you to slow down a bit. I just need to ask you one or two questions. You're referring now to the time that you were arrested by the police, is that right, after the incident where you had the shootout with the fifteen (15) ANC people? Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes. Just to go back to the incident, just to finish the incident. I just want you to say that we've subsequently established that one person was injured and his name was Patrick Vilikazi in that incident, and he was in fact injured by a bullet wound to his forearm, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: So when you say that you hit one of them in the chest, you were mistaken in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he said chest.

MR WILLS: I'm referring to when he says that in the affidavit. When you say in your affidavit that you hit one of them in the chest and he fell down, you're actually making a mistake there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, returning to the aspect you were busy discussing regarding how you were arrested after this incident, you refer to a person by the name of Felani. Who is this person? Is this the same Felani that you spoke of earlier, ie Felani Mthethwa?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Okay. Tell us what happened after the police got you, but if you can please, Mr Hlongwane, try and slow down. There's people trying to take notes and I'm trying to keep up with you. Just slow your pace down a little bit.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, before it escapes me. You will notice that not only is the fact that one person was allegedly shot in the chest, which is not what is being said now in his evidence-in-chief, but he has also said that he ran away after shooting this person when he was left with two shots, with two bullets. And in his affidavit he says that he actually ran out of ammunition and that's when he ran away. Can you just clear some of the things which seems to be contradictory to the evidence-in-chief which has been quite a few things appearing here.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Hlongwane, you see here in the end of your affidavit, you say you only ran away when you ran out of ammunition, but in your evidence-in-chief you said that you ran away whilst you still had two shots left. Can you just clear that up, tell us what the position was to the best of your recollection? And, Mr Hlongwane, all we're wanting here is the truth as you can remember it. If you can't remember something a hundred percent (100%) you mustn't be afraid to say that. We just want to know what you think, what your best memory of these incidences are.

MR HLONGWANE: When we were still discussing with these men and we started an altercation and these other two ran away who were in my company and that's where I took the firearm and shot once, and I ran with my arm loaded with two bullets. After running away they chased me. As they were coming closer I was forced to fire the next shot. I shot at them. They stopped and I started running again and I was left with one. And that's where I find Sdiga who was injured. I hold him by the hand. They were coming closer. To stop them from coming closer I shot the last bullet, fired the last bullet and we ran a bit and the police were coming and then I instructed them to lie on their stomach. That's where we were hiding under the grass and the police saw us and they came and found us and took us out from that place. I didn't ... (incomplete)

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Hlongwane. Now, tell us what happened when the police arrested you?

MR HLONGWANE: They didn't actually handcuff us, they just took us and put us in the van. We didn't even go to the charge office, we went to the cells. They opened, we entered the cells. We never gave statements. Felani was walking up and down, coming to us and back and forward. He came to give a report that I shouldn't worry because we will be released. He said I made a mistake because they nearly shot at us, the police. He went back and forth, and late on that same day a big van came. Oh I'm sorry, before the van arrived the young man in Davel we arrested with hunting knife, spears and they took these arms and keep them at the police station. Thereafter a very big police van came. It was driven by a white policeman. We were put into this car. I told him I cannot travel such a long distance without my gun. I requested that he give me my gun. He said, "Don't worry, it will follow after you leave". We went and when we arrived at the police station we parked outside in Ermelo. Let me go back, I'm sorry. These things were taken in the charge office. Arms were collected in Davel. They were taken and put in the same van that we travelled with. Sorry.

MR WILLS: Sorry, tell us how you got out the cells? You told us that you were put in the cells and Felani was walking up and down. How did you get out the cells?

MR HLONGWANE: Felani took us from the cells and handed us to another white man who came with this big van, and they took us to Christopher Ngwenya who was a leader of the Black Cats. That's where he dropped us.

MR WILLS: And where is Christopher Ngwenya's house?

MR HLONGWANE: In Ermelo in Estancia.

MR WILLS: And were you charged for this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR WILLS: And were statements taken from you?

MR HLONGWANE: No, no statement was taken.

MR WILLS: Now, you refer at the bottom of page one hundred and sixty two (162) to the fact that you were hunted down by an ANC assassin by the name of Pappa. Do you see that?

MR HLONGWANE: Here below. I'm not sure whether I stated the facts correctly. I said there was a certain young man known as Pappa. He was a former MK and he was killing SAP Police and also members of the IFP. Roux came to say that they have a problem with a man called Pappa, he's from Nelspruit, he's busy killing police and he asked if I can help to kill him. I accepted and agreed that I can kill him. I said he needs a rifle because I won't be able to shoot him, to kill him with a pistol. And I said if they can allow me I can go back to KwaZulu-Natal to search for this big rifle and I will come back with it. Therefore, after Noah transported me, I was with China. We went to Chief Wiseman Kayelihle Mathaba at Nyoni. When we arrived at Nyoni, Mathaba said we shall see her on the second day or Tuesday and we slept at this particular place, and we were told of Super Buthelezi who works at the KwaZulu Government. He has a 303. We are going to leave the AK47 and take the 303 rifle. It was myself, China, Noah, we left and we got a box of fifty rounds of ammunition and a 303. We came back with it to Ermelo.

MR WILLS: And you tried to find this Pappa, but you were unsuccessful, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: So, you didn't find him at all at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: I failed in all the places to which the police had directed me where I could find him.

MR WILLS: Yes. And then in paragraphs eighty three (83), eighty four (84) and eighty five (85) you tell us how you were in fact on one of your returns from Zululand or KwaZulu-Natal arrested by the police at the taxi rank?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And there again you were released to Christopher Ngwenya's house eventually?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the statement you make in regard to that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I confirm.

MR WILLS: Now, just one aspect. In paragraph eighty seven (87) - sorry, you'd explained to Noah that you were worried about your firearms and you wanted them returned to you. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you confirm that one of the firearms was returned to you by Felani?

MR HLONGWANE: He didn't personally give me the firearm. He told me Bongani took my firearm. He didn't know that Bongani have, I would say have moved from the Black Cats and joined the ANC, so I couldn't relocate Bongani to get the firearm.

MR WILLS: Yes, and you went to look for Bongani to recover this firearm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, there were two arms. It was a 9mm Parabellum and a 303 arms with Bongani.

MR WILLS: Yes, and when you say that the one firearm that you were looking for, the 9mm Parabellum, was the same firearm that you'd been arrested after shooting the boy in Davula, you're referring to the incident, this shootout with the ANC members in paragraph seventy six (76), is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, I want you to tell us about this warning from the South African Police that the ANC were on to you. It starts at paragraph eighty eight (88) of your affidavit. Do you see on page one hundred and sixty five (165), paragraph eighty eight (88)?

MR HLONGWANE: The police with whom we were working were informed or we gave reports to them as to what happened, and we also gave reports as to what they know. On one particular day someone by the name of Roux came to ask or to take me to Von Zweel's office. We went to Von Zweel's office. We had a conflict or an altercation with this white man because he said the community was complaining about the training that I have opened in the community. I looked at Nkosi, he was quiet. I said, "But you know that they were supposed to be trained and before they go at school they have to take a roadwork and I will train them and thereafter they will go to school and we will put tins on the wall and they will shoot at them and go. But why you want me to stop them", and he said, "No, I don't have problems with that, but police from outside might come and arrest you".

MR WILLS: And so what advice were you given, if any?

MR HLONGWANE: We came with an agreement that we should do all the work in secrecy so that the community do not get anything to complain about us. Thereafter they took me back.

MR WILLS: You say in your affidavit that you were advised to keep yourself in doors and halt your operations. Is that true?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, because police from outside from Ermelo wanted to arrest me.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, you then in paragraph eighty nine (89) talk about you receiving orders to move to Esikhawini. Can you just tell us who you received these orders from?

MR HLONGWANE: From Daluxolo Luthuli who is my commander.

MR WILLS: And how did it come about? Can you explain how you received that order?

MR HLONGWANE: Daluxolo called me telephonically and he said he need me to help his squad at Esikhawini because IFP members are being eliminated in the area.

MR WILLS: And you eventually went back to Ulundi, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: But before you went you still tried to get your weapons back from Bongani Khaba, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: But your ... (intervention)

MR HLONGWANE: Excuse me, I don't have one hundred and sixty six (166).

MR WILLS: Yes. Well, I'll just lead you on that. I don't think this is controversial. It's not going to form part of the amnesty application. Just to finalise, Mr Chairperson. You say in paragraph ninety (90) and ninety one (91) that you went to try and find Bongani who had defected in order to recover your weapons from him, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: You also say that Bongani had your 303 rifle and a 9mm pistol, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: You say that you were looking for him but you couldn't find him?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in paragraph ninety one (91), and I quote

"We attacked his home and shot his mother."

Now, is it not so that you've instructed me that that is a mistake on your part and you were not involved in this attack, and that you withdraw your amnesty application in respect of this offence as a consequence of you saying that you were not part of this attack?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I was no longer in Ermelo. I was operating at Esikhawini.

MR WILLS: When this attack occurred?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: So, this is a mistake in your affidavit?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is.

MR WILLS: Yes. The final aspect I want to deal with, Mr Hlongwane, is what you briefly describe in paragraph ninety four (94). That's on page one hundred and sixty seven (167). I think you've got that page. Now, you were in Ermelo for just over, what appears to be about an eighteen (18) month period. How did you survive financially when you were in Ermelo? Where did you get your money from?

MR HLONGWANE: In the first meeting it was clearly explained by Noah, who talked to the councillors saying that this person will be paid, will be remunerated and it's for us to make sure that he gets paid. I ended up working in Ermelo and Davel. The mayor Mr Hlatswayo and Bonjesi in Davel, they were people who will collect this money at each and every month end.

MR WILLS: And how much did you get paid?

MR HLONGWANE: It was eight hundred rand (R800,00).

MR WILLS: And did that salary remain the same from the time you were in Ermelo right through your period whilst you were in Davula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Did you ever get paid any extra money in respect of any specific incident or was it that you just got this salary?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I only received that money, the salary. I never received any other money outside of this.

MR WILLS: And you say you also got groceries to last you the month?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the grocery was done by Charles Maseko. If not by him, it will be Mr Ngobeni to buy the grocery. The person who was cooking for us was Charles Maseko's wife.

MR WILLS: Okay. So, when you were in Ermelo who actually handed your eight hundred rand (R800,00) to you at the end of each month? Who gave you that? I take it that this was in cash?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it was cash. It was Noah Mqobakazi.

MR WILLS: And when you were in Davula who paid you the eight hundred rand (R800,00)?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Mr Mkhonza.

MR WILLS: Now finally, Mr Hlongwane, can you just try and remember to tell us where you got your firearms and ammunition from?

MR HLONGWANE: The white man who used to be in the company of Roux used to give me ammunition or they will give it to Noah. Sometimes we will get them from someone who had shops. It was Mr Judah Zwane. He's known as Mangede, popularly known and Mangede.

MR WILLS: And did you get firearms from anyone else or did you get firearms from anybody? Who supplied your firearms?

MR HLONGWANE: The R1 which I still remember well which was to be used, it was brought by Mangede Judah Zwane. The 9mm pistol, the ammunitions were from Von Zweel, Maree, Meyer and I will hide them in a water drain, but when they were raiding the township, Roux will tell us. We will take all the arms and the bombs, we will take them all from the Black Cats in Estancia to Roux. He was a policeman so he wouldn't be searched. So after the raiding in the township I will take them back to the respective boys in the township. And that's how I lived my life in Ermelo.

MR WILLS: You said in the beginning when we started here, I think paragraph ninety four (94). Sorry, if the Committee will just bear with me. Sorry, paragraph fifty three (53). You say that Noah gave you the 9mm and the AK when you first arrived in Ermelo. Paragraph fifty three (53) on page one hundred and fifty two (152).

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: And you say this person Judah gave you an R1 and did he give you any other firearm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he gave me a nine short.

MR WILLS: What calibre? Was it a handgun?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, a handgun.

MR WILLS: Was it a 9mm?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, 9mm pistol.

MR WILLS: And you also mentioned that you got the 303 from Chief Mathaba?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he's a superintendent or a super. Mathaba went to this superintendent who worked for the KwaZulu Government and this man gave us the 303.

MR WILLS: Yes. And then did you get any weapons from anybody else? I'm not worried about ammunition, I'm talking about weapons, firearms. Can you remember?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I got the 3.8 from Bonjesi.

MR WILLS: Who is Bonjesi.

MR HLONGWANE: It's Mr Mkhonza.

MR WILLS: Did you get any firearms from anybody else or is that all you can remember?

MR HLONGWANE: This is all I can remember at this present moment.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. That will be the evidence-in-chief. I wonder if I could ask at this stage, there's one or two things that I'd like to just canvass with the witness before we finalise. I see it's almost the lunch adjournment. I think that I'm finished. I don't think that there will be anything else that I'll have to raise. I'd request, and I have briefly raised this with some of my colleagues around the table, that if we do finish at this stage, if we could start cross-examination after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's now twenty to one. Would it be convenient for us to resume at half past one? Take the lunch adjournment now and then start again at half past one.

MR WILLS: That would be convenient for me. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take the lunch adjournment and we will start again at half past one.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: What are these documents, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. This is the plea that I spoke of earlier.

MR CHAIRPERSON: So that will be EXHIBIT E2.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont)

Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, you've got a document in front of you there which has got an "F" in the top corner. Can you see that? Do you confirm that this is the plea that you ... (intervention)

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see.

MR WILLS: ... entered in respect of the trial where December was killed and other persons, the trial you referred to in September 1997 in Ermelo.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you. I beg leave to hand this up. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That plea in terms of section 112 with then be received as EXHIBIT E2.

PLEA IN TERMS OF SECTION 112 HANDED IN MARKED EXHIBIT E2

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Just one issue. Mr Hlongwane, we've heard over the last couple of hours the horrific deeds and numerous attacks and murders and killings that you were involved in during 1990 and 1991 in Ermelo. Do you have anything to say to the victims of these attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I will say I deeply apologise and I'm asking forgiveness for all the things that I have done. I know it's difficult, but I would like to request that they please forgive me. I didn't do all these things intentionally. I was forced to do it and I was politically motivated, and I was trying to protect my place against from the communists, attacking of the communists. Thanks.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. That will be the evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills. Mr Magadi, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MAGADI: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: Yes, yes, I do, Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwane, would it be correct to say firstly, that you were a sort of a commander of the IFP members in and around the Ermelo area?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And being a commander of various people, you gave instructions for certain things to be done, would that be correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, would it be correct to say that in issuing out these instructions you would not always be present when certain deeds were committed, would that be correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And as a commander, the people that were under your command would report back to you as to what they had done, would that be correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, I've read your affidavit and I've considered the evidence that you've given this morning, and I can find no place either in your evidence nor in the affidavit where you accept responsibility for any of the deeds which were performed by your subordinates on your instructions. Why is that so?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say it is my mistakes, but I know all the operations which were undertaken by the Black Cats from Ermelo to Davel, but I know of these incidents and I accept responsibility.

MR PATEL: For what period of time were you present and operating in the Ermelo area?

CHAIRPERSON: That includes your experiences in Davula?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

MR HLONGWANE: It is from 1990, if I'm not making a mistake, it's from 1990 to 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an idea as to whether it was longer than a year and if so, how much longer than a year, or if it was shorter for how many months you were here?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, if I remember well, I would say it will be a year or fourteen (14) months.

MR PATEL: What month was it in 1990 that you came to Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, maybe my lawyer might help, it's because it was during the time when the case of Christopher Zwane and the other person was finalised.

MR PATEL: Can you not remember the month?

MR HLONGWANE: I only remember the year.

MR PATEL: Was it early 1990 or late in the year, middle of the year?

MR HLONGWANE: It was at the end of 1990.

MR PATEL: And what month in 1991 did you leave Ermelo, the Ermelo area?

MR HLONGWANE: I would say early 1990, it might be March or April or early 1991.

MR PATEL: So, if I understand you correctly, you came to this area towards the end of 1990 and left early 1991?

MR HLONGWANE: Let me try to correct here. I arrived towards the end of 1990. If I'm not mistaken in 1991, towards the end, I would say I arrive in 1990 and towards the end of 1991 I went back to KwaZulu-Natal.

MR PATEL: Subsequent to leaving this area in 1991 did you ever return to this area?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I used to come but not on a work assignment. It was just visiting the area.

MR PATEL: How often did you return to the area prior to your arrest?

MR HLONGWANE: I would say twice.

MR PATEL: In which years?

MR HLONGWANE: I would say it was May. Between May and June.

MR PATEL: Would that be 1992, 1993, 1994?

MR HLONGWANE: '92. '92.

MR PATEL: All right. In this period of fourteen (14) months that you were operative in the Ermelo area, how many missions would you say were executed by people under your command and not in your presence?

MR HLONGWANE: I won't have a specific figure, but I will say several times. I don't have the figure, but I know of several operations that they reported to me and I also have to report to the higher structures.

MR PATEL: Yes. Would you say that they executed an instruction of yours at least twice a month?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I can't put it that way because it's me who was given the task to kill the people in Ermelo. So their only work was to go and do a reconnaissance or help me. I will send them to go and look at the place, and sometimes I will delegate the work to go and do the work and have to report back to me after the work.

MR PATEL: All right. Well, let's call it work. The work that they did, how many times did they do this work? An approximation, in the period of fourteen (14) months that they were under your command?

MR HLONGWANE: The work that I still remember, it will be approximately five (5) or six (6).

MR PATEL: And am I correct in my understanding that your affidavit, as well as your evidence this morning is totally silent with regard to those incidents?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR PATEL: Listening to your evidence this morning, and considering your affidavit, I get a distinct feeling, Mr Hlongwane, that you're not disclosing everything to this Committee with regard to the incidents you were involved in. Are you of the view that you've disclosed everything in so far as it related to you?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, to answer you, I will say as I'm here I'm prepared to reveal all that I know that I can possibly remember. However, if there is something that you know, you can put it to me and if I agree with it I will say I agree, if I don't, I will say I don't.

MR PATEL: All right. Let me tell you what my first problem is, and this is lack of participation on the part of the people that accompany you. I look at the first attack that you talk about in this area, and it's the attack on a shop. You recollect that, where you shot into a shop? Do you recollect that, and you were in the presence of China? If you want to refer to your affidavit, it would be paragraph fifty four (54).

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see that.

MR PATEL: You are in the presence of one China, and China does nothing, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: It is as you stated, sir.

MR PATEL: Yes. Then you have an attack on Mrs Shongwe. Again, you're the person that does the deed and the only other thing that happens there is one Jomo leaves a petrol bomb lying on the floor. Nobody else does anything active besides you. Are you with me? Do you understand the question?

MR HLONGWANE: I understand your question, but I think I've explained that I didn't say China was - I was armed with an M26 handgrenade. I said this, but it's not written in the statement. People who worked there, it was myself and China. I said I entered the house and searched the house, and after the search we took the lady inside and we were searching throughout the rooms, and when we were in the kitchen I shot at her with the firearm and I said to China he must pull out the pin on the M26 and hit the house.

MR PATEL: Let me just interrupt you for a second. I don't need you to repeat the whole story. What I'm looking at here is purely a question of involvement, all right. Your affidavit reads, forget for a moment what you said in your evidence this morning, your affidavit reads you did the shooting and Jomo left a petrol bomb on the floor, is that correct? And the affidavit is in front of you if you want to confirm it, it's in paragraph fifty six (56) and fifty five (55).

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, let me explain this to you. I'm not disputing that that's how it's written. I said when I was writing all these statements, but with regards to the Zini and December issues, it was at the time where I could remember everything because the police will help me to recollect exactly what happens. I mean writing down and discussing things are two different things, therefore there should be a difference in the two.

MR PATEL: I see. We'll get to the differences later. The attack on the Thembisa scholars, and again just limit yourself please for the sake of brevity, limit yourself to identification and involvement here. Again you are with China, and again only you do the shooting?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR PATEL: Yes, just off the topic, what is China's real name?

MR HLONGWANE: He's Josiah. I don't want to guess, I don't know his real name. I don't know his name very well. The only name which was given to me was China. Maybe if someone find the name I'd send it to the Committee.

MR PATEL: Yes. How long did you spend - the period of time that you spent in Ermelo, practically the entire period you spent with China, am I correct? Am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And yet you don't know his name. All right. Let's move on. The next incident is the attack on the three or four boys. Again you do all the shooting. This time you're in the presence of one Mdu and your girlfriend Mphume.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the issue of me staying with China for a long time without knowing his name is the same because even himself, I stayed with him for a long time but he doesn't know my real name. I just want to put it before the Committee that in the hit squads, the Committee have all my different names in all the involvements throughout the country, because you don't call yourself by your real name, and I will say he was a person who was going to help by pointing out. So, it wasn't necessary for me to know his names, but it was important that he shows me the targets which I had to attack. In most cases what used to happen, he is the person who used to direct me and point out and I carried out the operations or the attack. I think I was answering your questions with reference to the names. You can continue with the other question.

MR PATEL: Yes. The next question related to the three or four boys when you were in the presence of Mdu, and again it is only you that do the shooting, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true, it's me who shot.

MR PATEL: Then you have the attack on the ANC scholars. Sorry, then you have the attack on Mr December, and again it's you that does the shooting.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, I can go through your entire affidavit on this basis and all I find is, "I did this, I did that. I was in the presence of so-and-so", but nobody else does anything, except you.

CHAIRPERSON: There was that one case where he said that they were in the house and the Black Cats who were with him hacked a woman to death which he didn't do.

MR PATEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman. The thrust of the question ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, but it wasn't with everyone, but with the vast majority of them.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. I get the distinct impression, Mr Hlongwane, that you are trying to hide or protect people. Is my impression wrong?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I will say you are making a big mistake because the hit squad involved, I'm not the only person. There were people from different areas, others were from Ulundi and some operating different areas where I was not there, but I'm referring to incidences where I was involved personally, as the person who was in charge of the Black Cats. I'm not trying to hide any person or hide anything. I'm trying to explain what happened exactly from the time I arrived and the time I left this place.

MR PATEL: Yes.

MR HLONGWANE: To add there, sir, since I left the place and went to attack in a particular area, I could not be able to remember each and every detail or incidence, but if there's any other thing that anyone knows you might put it to me.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, if I may interpose, Mr Patel. What Mr Patel wants to know is whether in the many crimes that you committed and that you have testified to before this Commission, was there any particular role that was played by your underlings, because from what appears in your affidavit and from the evidence that you have led, it does not appear that they have played any important role. That is the people that accompanied you in the commission of all these crimes, and he wants to know whether you have not disclosed their actual and full participation because you are trying to protect them.

MR HLONGWANE: Chairperson, I would also like to ask to explain it in this way. The things that happened I wrote them on the papers, but there were some incidences where I used to go with them but they did nothing. However, they used to go out and do their operations and they will come and report to me and I didn't include that in my statements because I wasn't personally involved and I will take the report to Noah and any other things, and I'm including those which I gave instruction of which I take responsibility.

MR PATEL: Yes, I'll argue that at a later stage. You mention Noah's name a lot because he gave you instructions as to what to do, is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And likewise, you gave other people instructions in what to do, is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, as a commander I did.

MR PATEL: And you feel that Noah should accept responsibility for the acts that you've done because he gave you the instructions, is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Therefore likewise, you should accept responsibility and should have made full disclosure of all the operations that were carried out by your operatives under your instructions, would that not be correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: On the question of firearms, I got a bit lost in your evidence-in-chief. But as I understood it, Noah gave you a 9mm short pistol, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true.

MR PATEL: And you kept that and in addition to that, thereafter he gave you an AK47 and a .38 Special revolver?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, the 9mm was given to me at the time I was around Ermelo. That was the time China was taking me around the community pointing out the places, and thereafter I was given the AK and the .38.

MR PATEL: And all of these firearms were given to you by Noah?

MR HLONGWANE: No, there are some which I got from Noah and some ammunition from the police, and there's the other one which I got from Judah Zwane. So I will say I got them from different people, not from Noah only.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what Mr Patel is putting to you is that you got the 9mm pistol, the AK47 and .38 revolver from Noah?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Then you got a further firearm from Judah Zwane. What firearm was that?

MR HLONGWANE: It was a short 9mm and an R1.

MR PATEL: Forget the ammunition for a moment, was there any other firearms in your possession apart from this?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, arriving at Davel I got another 38.

MR PATEL: From whom?

MR HLONGWANE: From Mr Mkhonza.

MR PATEL: Any other firearms that you received?

MR HLONGWANE: I also got something from Gatsheni Humphrey Ndlovu, he's in Parliament.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I missed the first part. May you please ask him to repeat it?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, the interpreter didn't catch all that you said. Could you start again from that you got something from Mr Ndlovu.

MR HLONGWANE: I said I remember acquiring arms from Humphrey Ndlovu who is a member of Parliament in the Gauteng Government. It was an SSG ammunition, it was home-made firearms and some bombs, M26 and handgrenade inside. They were given to me in a black plastic, refuse plastic. And those I got them from Chris' home.

MR PATEL: This is the first time the Committee hears about this, am I correct? You didn't say anything about that this morning.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true and it is the first time I mentioned Judah Mangethi, because if I remember will mention them. He's just one of the persons I'm remembering now.

MR PATEL: Yes. So, if faced with a situation then you will remember. If we can't prompt your memory then you can't remember. Is that the story? Tell me, Judah Zwane is the same person as Judah Mangethi?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it's the same.

MRS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Patel. Was the weaponry that you received from Mr Humphrey Ndlovu used in the acts that you are applying for amnesty for?

MR HLONGWANE: No, they were used by the Black Cats.

MRS KHAMPEPE: So they were not used in the offence for which you are seeking amnesty before this Committee?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say police were recovering all these weapons because people were using them when they were drunk. I don't remember any of these firearms being used.

MRS KHAMPEPE: No, my question is, did you use any of the weaponry supplied by Mr Humphrey Ndlovu in respect of the offences for which you are seeking amnesty?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I used one bomb, the M26 and I never used the home-made firearms because I never use it in Ermelo. I don't remember the other people with me using these firearms too. I will say these are the home-made firearms which we use and they never even give me a report to that regard. They M26, that's the one we use at Zini. That's the one that I'm asking amnesty with regards to.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: Right. Is that now an exhaustive list of all the weapons that you had in your possession whilst in the Ermelo area, or did you have any more weapons and who did you get them from?

MR HLONGWANE: The last one was given to me by the police by the name of Mavuso and it was a .45 Magnum pistol, and that's all. He was a policeman at the municipality.

MR PATEL: I see in paragraph one hundred and seven (107) of your affidavit you talk about having brought back with you from Ermelo a P38 pistol and a 357 Magnum. Where did you get this from and why didn't you tell the Committee about this before?

MR HLONGWANE: Let me try to differentiate this. The 357 Magnum are the ones that are normally used by the companies which has got money deliveries. The other one was the one that was issued to me and I couldn't use it. That's the firearm or the gun that I used to keep with me. The P38, if I'm not making a mistake - I think I'm making a mistake. I wanted to say a 38. That is the one I got it in Ermelo and I used. P38 is a pistol revolver.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just going to say the 38, is that not a revolver. What is a pistol revolver?

MR HLONGWANE: I can't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the P38 was a 38 pistol revolver. I'm asking you what is a pistol revolver?

MR HLONGWANE: A P38 is like a 9mm, there's a cassette. A 38 gets broken. The P38 has a magazine, a 38 has a flywheel. That's how I differentiate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, you can ... (incomplete)

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. You've testified with regard to paragraph one hundred and seven (107) already, am I correct, at another hearing?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: And at that hearing did you correct the apparent mistake which you see in paragraph one hundred and seven (107)?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct. At the hearings at Natal, you are correct.

MR PATEL: And you corrected it there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, the 357 Magnum that you're talking about, you say this was issued to you. Where was it issued to you? Where?

MR HLONGWANE: It was given to me by M Z Khumalo who was an assistant to M G Buthelezi.

MR PATEL: Prior to coming to Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Yes.

MR PATEL: The first attack, could you just give the Committee a little bit further detail. Did this place, this Isikhumplazi, as I understand it, it's a shopping complex? There's a few shops there, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I didn't put it that way. I said there is a shop, if you're coming from Estancia you cross a bridge and there is a shop, and at the corner there is a shop for Mr Ndebele which are a distance from each other. There is only one shop I'm referring to, and from that shop you move a bit and you find another shop for Mr Ndebele.

MR PATEL: Okay. As I understand you, can you tell me when did this attack take place? You say it was during 1990. Can you remember the month?

MR HLONGWANE: I won't be able to remember the exact month, but I remember very well that it was in 1990 because I had just arrived in the area.

MR PATEL: It was not long after you had arrived in the area, would that be correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, if I understand your evidence correctly, the political objective sought to be sought by bringing you to this area was initially to get rid of the leadership of the ANC, that was your task that was said to you, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: No, it's not true. It was not only the leaders. You are right when you say I was supposed to eliminate the leaders of the ANC and, however, thereafter and also the followers of the ANC or members.

MR PATEL: I may have misunderstood you. I understood your evidence to be that your initial instruction was to target ANC leaders and then Mr Noah got frustrated because you weren't able to do so, and then you were given carte blanch and you can knock off any ANC people. Is that not how it went?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I didn't put it that way. I said, sir, I failed to get the leaders and I went back with a report to Noah as the person who was issuing instructions to me, and he said I can also attack the youth or members of the ANC if I can't get the leaders, and that's what I did.

MR PATEL: Yes, it was a subsequent instruction that you got. You could attack the youth and members of the ANC. Your initial instruction was to go for the leadership of the ANC.

MR WILLS: Sorry, with respect, Mr Chairperson, I must object. That's a slightly misleading question. If one refers to paragraph fifty one (51), particularly the last sentence or the second last sentence, it reads that through Peter Msane, and I quote

"I should go there and kill all ANC/UDF members so as to enable the Black Cats to regain control."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was the impression I got as well from the evidence given today, that it was to go there because the Black Cats were suffering. They had problems there and he was recruited to get across there to sort out the problems. If you heard it differently to me, Mr Patel, you can carry on, but my impression was that the initial mandate wasn't to go specifically to eliminate leaders, but it was to attack ANC people. But if I'm wrong you can carry on. If I can just check my note.

MR PATEL: If I may just reply on the following basis, Mr Chairman. As I understood it, the applicant's initial instruction which came from Ulundi was to go and assist and everybody was fair game if they belonged to the ANC. However, when he arrived in Ermelo his commander in chief is now replaced. It's no longer the man in Ulundi, it's now Noah. Noah's instruction to the applicant is to take out leadership. Thereafter that becoming futile, the instruction changed. That's how I understood it.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Yes, obviously in context.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, put it to him then.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, I agree with you, but one has to view that in context to the initial instructions that came from Mr Luthuli, which was to try and make sure that they regained control of the area in Ermelo. But I do agree that the applicant did testify that Mr Noah had initially drawn a list of the ANC leadership and he went on to, I think, state the names of the leadership who were in that list which was not a written list, but it was nevertheless provided to him orally.

MR PATEL: I thank you, My Lady.

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I can just comment on my learned friend's last example. In paragraph fifty two (52) he refers to the meeting he had with Noah, and there it's clear again that at that meeting the target were, he says

"I would be used to kill UDF members and attack their areas."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Judge Khampepe is putting now is that there was this initial instruction to go and kill ANC members and that Mr Noah, on arrival, had this list, but that wasn't to the exclusion of the additional instruction. That's what I understand it to mean.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR PATEL: As it pleases the Committee. I'll move on. It's not all that material. I'm looking for detail here with regard to it, there's one shop only, am I correct, on your evidence?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: You enter the shop?

MR HLONGWANE: I didn't enter the shop.

MR PATEL: Good. You shoot from the outside into the shop, correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: This is just on the basis that this shop is frequented by ANC supporters. Did you identify any particular person within the shop?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, maybe I should explain it in this way. As you are sitting on the other side and you are the members of the ANC and I have instruction to shoot at you, I wouldn't say if I was given instruction to go and shoot the ANC, I should go and shoot you - I will go and shoot you because I know you as an ANC member, but I will shoot you as people belonging to the ANC and that's what happened.

MR PATEL: Let me just understand this correctly. Your information given to you by Charles or China is that this shop is frequented by UDF supporters, correct?

MR HLONGWANE: No, it is not correct. Noah asked China to show me the area. This is an ANC stronghold. China is not the one who initiated the pointing out, it was Noah who instructed that I should be shown the area at Isikhumplazi. And then the instruction was that I should go and shoot all the people in that place because all the people in that area or in that place were ANC members.

MR PATEL: I see. What commodities were sold by this particular shop?

MR HLONGWANE: Food.

MR PATEL: So, inside this shop you could get very young children, you could get very old people, you could get people who are teenagers and you could get adult people, and a whole array of people, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Maybe I can explain to you, sir.

MR PATEL: The question is very simple. In terms of the type of people that you could expect to find in a food shop ranges from babies to people on pension, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, we are here with regards to cases involving the death of people. If I were to answer yes or no, people will go out with false information. So please give me a chance to explain with regards to the death of these people, because I'm here to please myself. I killed a lot of people, but now if I want to speak you're going to stop me or prevent me from speaking. I would like to ask the Committee to allow me to explain. Please give me a chance to explain so that you can understand and I understand you. Thanks.

MR PATEL: Go ahead, Mr Hlongwane.

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I will say we as the African people, our battle or our fight is different to the Western fight or whites or the Indians we were fighting. If they say on the other of the bank or the other side there is war, we have to attack. You don't go there and start selecting and say, "Take out the children out of the house". What you do is you attack the whole place. It doesn't matter whether there was an old lady in the shop or not. The instruction was for me to go there and shoot, it wasn't said that I should take out the children or ladies or young children, I was told to go and shoot, then that's what I did.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, if I must come in here. Won't you just confine yourself to your own political organisation. If you want to probably expatiate on whether there was a policy in your organisation with regard to the killing of children, you can do so. Let's hear your evidence being confined and restricted to your own political organisation. Did you have a policy with regard to the killing of children?

MR HLONGWANE: No, there wasn't any policy and it was not a policy. However, Chairperson, it might happen that when we attack, for example, we attack at night, it's possible that you might shoot and injure a child without knowing, because you don't know exactly who is inside the house. For example, I would say the person sitting next to me is in the house only to find that he has moved out of the house and he has got out of the place and I'll shoot at the area and the wrong person might be injured.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, you may proceed.

MR PATEL: So, in other words, what you're saying, if I understand your answer correctly, it didn't matter who was in the shop. So you don't have to tell me whether there could have been babies or pensioners, it doesn't matter?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, you understand me, that's correct.

MR PATEL: Do I also understand your evidence to be that there was no policy from your political party with regard to killing of innocent people?

MR HLONGWANE: I never said that. I don't remember saying that. I said ... (intervention)

MR PATEL: With children, with regard to children. There was no policy with regard to the killing of children.

MR HLONGWANE: I don't understand your children.

MR PATEL: All right.

MR HLONGWANE: Please explain.

CHAIRPERSON: I think one will also have to get to, you know, the word "children" is rather wide, Mr Patel. If one could be a bit more specific as well.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Do you accept, let's forget policies for a moment, do you accept that within this shop there could have been people who did not belong to the ANC?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I heard you. I understand your question, sir, but I was told that anything in that particular Isikhumplazi, the dog, the cat belongs to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Please calm down.

MR PATEL: And you are saying that you had a bona fide belief that by shooting into this shop in respect of whom you have identified not one person, that you were furthering the aims of the IFP? You had a reasonable belief that this is what you were doing?

MR HLONGWANE: I didn't get it from the IFP, the instruction it was Noah Mqobakazi.

MR PATEL: And whose aims was he furthering?

MR HLONGWANE: It was for Inkatha, the liberation of the people at the time.

MR PATEL: Yes. Why was it that when you shot at Mrs Tilly who had a baby in her arms ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On her back.

MR PATEL: That's a real cultural difference. With a baby on her back, that you were so careful and you say in your evidence, how careful you were not to shoot at the baby, and yet when you go to shoot at this shop and you fire blindly through windows and doors or wherever, you couldn't give a -you don't care?

MR HLONGWANE: To add, maybe you have to explain what you mean by child. You mean a child, a young child who will be put over the back or you mean a young child or a child who can run to a shop to buy something? I would say we, the African people or blacks, we normally get politicised from about twelve (12) years. There is a child who can go to a shop, there is a child who can't walk and we can't send anywhere. So there should be a difference.

MR PATEL: Let's put an end to this, Mr Hlongwane. Let's assume for one moment that it was Mrs Tilly in the shop with the baby on her back. What is your position then?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, let's talk about the things that happened, because there was not any child which was on the back of a woman in the shop. So it's better if you differentiated the two cases. The MamNkosi case and the case at the shop because as I've explained, MamNkosi I tried to shoot at her and I hit her below the eye and when she turned around I saw she was with her child, and I didn't shoot further. But at the shop I didn't see any child, and I wasn't attacking any particular person, I was attacking all the people in the shop. But in the case of MamNkosi, I was attacking MamNkosi alone. So they should be differentiated.

MR PATEL: I think we'll move on. I'll argue that at a later stage. Let's look at your second incident. In essence in your evidence-in-chief you say Mr Noah became frustrated, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Frustrated by what?

MR PATEL: Because we're looking at the second incident. You couldn't get hold of Bhobholina. You couldn't kill Bhobholina.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And out of that frustration he told you to go and kill Bhobholina's mother, correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, that is an act not associated with a political objective, but one where you are driven by sheer malice or frustration?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, probably you see the need or the cause. I would say one Black Cat member to further explain or clarify was injured because of Bhobholina. Therefore I was supposed to go and kill Bhobholina and since I couldn't find Bhobholina I took the report back to the person who sent me and the person said, "In order to get this person you better shoot the mother", and that's how it happened.

MR PATEL: Your evidence this morning is it was an act planned out of frustration.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said, Mr Patel, was he became frustrated and then instructed him to kill the mother so that that would attract Bhobholina, who couldn't be found, to the funeral and then he would be attacked at the funeral.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, this applicant has just admitted, not five minutes ago, that it was an act where they were driven to do out of frustration, and I put it to him that it is not politically associated.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, shouldn't that be a point that you can take up in your legal argument? Surely you can't get anything from Mr Hlongwane, but I'm sure you'll be able to get something when you address us on that issue.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Madam. But before I can address the legal argument, certainly I must canvass the facts and that I have done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can continue.

MRS KHAMPEPE: You may proceed.

MR PATEL: And the plan was to take somebody's life in order to use them as bait for somebody else's life, am I correct?

MR HLONGWANE: It was arranged by Noah that I should kill Bhobholina's mother in order to get Bhobholina himself.

MR PATEL: Yes. Now, when you arrived at the house did you have a balaclava over your head or not?

MR HLONGWANE: Since I joined the hit squad I have never worn something like a balaclava.

MR PATEL: Well, let me tell you, Mr Hlongwane, that I'm going to put forward evidence of certain people who are going to testify as to what happened that day, and they're going to say that the persons that arrived, or at least two of them, were masked with balaclavas.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, there were other people who were wearing them, but not myself. I said Mr Makunga - they said, "Since we are working around here, we will put on our balaclava", but not myself. I wasn't wearing any balaclava and I took Bhobholina's mother to a kitchen. I wasn't wearing anything. I agree that there were some people wearing balaclavas, they are correct, but myself as Sadam, I was not wearing any.

MR PATEL: Yes. The lady that's going to testify, her name is Miriam Mabel Shongwe, she is the daughter of the deceased, and she will say that two people entered wearing balaclavas. You say to this Committee today that you were the only one to enter the house.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, even now I restate my word, I am setting my words. It is true I get into the house. I was alone. I don't know where China was and how and when he threw the bomb, but I entered the house, I was not having a balaclava on. Maybe you should give me time to explain. Before I sent the other boys back I arrived with the boys together, I positioned them at the corners and then I went into the entrance, and I looked in. I didn't see anything. I went back into the house and China was standing by the door. I don't remember whether it was a dining-room or not. I got back into the house and then I told the lady that I'm looking for Bhobholina and I said, "I'm alone". I ask her to search the house with me. I as a commander, I entered the place without a balaclava on. I don't know whether China entered the place or not when I was inside the kitchen, and this is what I said and this is what the truth is.

MR PATEL: How many people were in the house, apart from you when you entered?

MR HLONGWANE: I can't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Besides the people that you went with and yourself, how many people did you find in the house? You've said that Bhobholina's mother was there. Who else was in the house, if anybody, or how many other people were in the house?

MR HLONGWANE: It was only one person. Bhobholina's mother. But after some time we heard there were people who were hiding in the house. At the time when I was raiding the house I only find Bhobholina's mother. But after the operation of the work, I was told that someone was injured by the M26 and I would say I personally only find one person at the time I was searching the house.

MR PATEL: Well, Mrs Shongwe will testify that there were quite a few of them in the house. That the two people with balaclavas took them and made them all lie down in the bedroom on the floor and told them not to talk, and then one of the balaclava clad persons took the mother around to search for Bhobholina in the rest of the house. Is that not a correct description?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't remember that. I don't remember even during the trial, they said they saw me through the window. I don't know that. What I know is that I found the aunt in the house alone and I tried to search but I couldn't find anyone and I shot her alone, and then China threw the bomb and the others were injured. I'm not saying they were not there, but I didn't see them because if I saw them I might have shot them, because we went there knowing that Bhobholina have killed a leader of the Black Cats, the first thing. Secondly, there's a statement which I made, I wrote on the tenth (10th) of 1997, April. This is the statement I went to give to my legal representative which reflect on Noah insisting and asking exactly what am I doing, what kind of work am I supposed to do in the place in Ermelo. However, I would say that I accept that there were people because when I was in court it came out that there were people who got injured. I'm not disagreeing or denying, but I didn't see them or I failed to see them when I was searching.

MR PATEL: You searched this house looking for a particular person and you failed to find four others lying on the floor. Is that what you say? You go into this house. Your specific purpose is to find Bhobholina. Now you search in the house, am I correct? You don't find four others in the house.

MR HLONGWANE: I found one person, and even now I confirm, if I remember well, I'm sure of what I'm talking about. I found one person. If there was someone who was ordered to lie down it means it's me who ordered them to lie them down, and I didn't. The one lady giving evidence said at the time when you're walking around said, "We saw you through the window, you were walking inside the house". She never said, "We were lying down when we saw you". Then she saw me through the window as I was moving around inside the house. That's what I remember the evidence as was given in court.

MR PATEL: You say if you had seen these people you would have shot them?

MR HLONGWANE: Let's say maybe the person or the person we were looking for, the target, was inside the house.

MR PATEL: Mr Hlongwane, did you or did you not say, not three (3) minutes ago, that if you had seen these people you would have shot them?

MR HLONGWANE: I said that I will say because of the pressure from me from behind I might have. I was there to get Bhobholina's mother, but if I did find them I might have. Maybe I should describe you the family. Noah said to me that the mother is an ANC member and his child or son caused the death of the Black Cat leader, and secondly, at Bhobholina's place, that's where most ANC members stay. That is the information that was supplied to me by the people in Ermelo. So I will say it was a meeting place for the people, or the ANC people.

MR PATEL: So whoever you found there you may have killed?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's what I said and that's what I'm saying now. It's because of the situation as Noah was angry with my work and he said I should go and shoot the mother so that he can come to the funeral.

MR PATEL: Is it also not correct that Mrs Shongwe, the deceased, gave you or one of your accomplices or one of the two men clad in balaclavas an amount of one thousand five hundred rand (R1 500,00) with a plea not to kill her?

MR HLONGWANE: How much?

MR PATEL: One thousand five hundred rand (R1 500,00).

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I am Israel Hlongwane and I was known as Sadam in this area. I never received any such money and if there's any person who have seen me receiving that money, where was that person standing or where was the person? I deny that there was such offer of money and I never received the money.

MR PATEL: Yes. The petrol bomb, you say Jomo had a petrol bomb with him, but he just left it on the ground when you left the scene? Why would he do a thing like that?

MR HLONGWANE: I said so. Sir, I don't know how to explain Jomo to you. When we were going there he was about to run. He was standing there holding it and he was shaking. And this is a litre because I couldn't find a 500ml and I put some petrol in it. I give it to Jomo and he was standing by the window, because the police could have taken it as an exhibit, but Jomo left it on the ground.

MR PATEL: What was China's ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't catch that, Mr Patel. If you could just repeat it.

MR PATEL: What was China's occupation?

MR HLONGWANE: When he arrived in Ermelo Noah took him to stay with me. He was staying with me. His work was to accompany me when I go around doing the work. So I'll say he was not working. He was not working when I arrived. Maybe he was working before I arrived.

MR PATEL: Approximately how old was he?

MR HLONGWANE: You mean the time he was with me?

MR PATEL: Yes.

MR HLONGWANE: I was born in 1968. I would say he's probably somewhere around 1970, if I'm not making a mistake, but he's younger than me. Not that there is not much difference, but he's younger.

MR PATEL: He must have been about twenty one/twenty two (21/22) at the time?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: In your talks with him, had you discussed at what standard he had left school and when?

MR HLONGWANE: I will be lying, the only relationship between me and him it was with relation to the work that we're supposed to do. We never discussed personal matters. Even today I don't even know his real name or surname. I only knew about him from the purpose and the parade. Madlanduna is my commander and if he tells you you meet so-and-so then that's all. And that's the kind of life that we led. I didn't know him. Maybe whatever names he gave they were his real name, but myself, I was given code names.

MR PATEL: All right. The Thembisa area here in Ermelo, is it well lit? Are there street lights in every street or not?

MR HLONGWANE: If I remember well, it's not like the street lights, the ones in Durban, they were the Apollo lights. If I remember well, I think I'm correct if I say they were Apollo lights here and there. I don't know exactly their exact name.

CHAIRPERSON: Are those Apollo lights those lights on a very tall stand?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, Chairperson.

MR PATEL: This incident on the attack on the Thembisa scholars, Chine hid away in the drain. Why?

MR HLONGWANE: May you please repeat your question. I didn't understand it.

MR PATEL: China, in this killing of these Thembisa boys from the school, China hid away in the drain. That's how I read it. China hid in the drain. Why did he hide away in the drain?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know. Maybe it's me who can't remember this very well. I would say we were about a distance from each other. He was in front and he saw the people and he passed them and he give me a sign and I shot them. I can't say he was hiding. I don't remember, I don't say that.

MR PATEL: He was walking ahead of you, approximate distance as you and I, that's approximately eight (8) paces, am I correct? And you were both walking in the same direction. He walks eight (8) paces ahead of you.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Yes.

MR PATEL: And then he walks past these people and then he goes and hides away in the drain. Just explain this to me again. I'm lost here.

MR HLONGWANE: I'm also lost, because I don't know anything about the hiding in a drain.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, if I could just read to you from paragraph fifty seven (57) of your affidavit.

"China identified them as being the troublemakers from the school. China hid in the drain and I approached two boys, took out my 9mm short ..."

Etcetera.

INTERPRETER: Paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: Fifty seven (57). Five seven (57). You see China hid in the drain. Further down. It's one, two, three, fourth last line. Four lines from the bottom of paragraph fifty seven (57).

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what Mr Patel is asking you about. He said he's a bit lost and he's saying why did China hide in the drain.

MR HLONGWANE: I can see that. He didn't hide, he stand on the drain. It was not necessary, because even if they did see him and they report the matter, he wasn't going to be arrested. He didn't hide, but he stand there.

MR PATEL: Before I continue. This portion of your affidavit that we've been through this morning, did you go through it with your legal representative before you started to give evidence this morning?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And did you not see all the mistakes that we're finding as we're going along?

MR HLONGWANE: I think the mistake it's with me. My legal representative gave the statements to me in time and I was reading them while I was in Westville Prison. I would say it's my mistake and I didn't read thoroughly. So it's a mistake that I made, not my lawyer, because he gave the statements to me in time. So I accept responsibility with regards to this mistake.

MR PATEL: So you did go through this statement with your lawyer before testifying?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: All right. You're unable to tell us when China was last at school, but he certainly wasn't at school at the time that he was with you?

MR HLONGWANE: All the Black Cats were not going to school. I left them there and there were some hiding around here. Patrick, he was still staying in the house and China was also staying in the house. He was fetched by Noah. I don't know which place. There wasn't any Black Cat who was a school-going person and China wasn't hiding at that time and I can't explain as to what standard he went.

MR PATEL: Oh, that's another story. The question I want to ask you first is, if China never attended this school, how would he know who the school children would be and how would he be able to identify who were the troublemakers?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, to explain, you must remember that he was from Ermelo, because Noah gave me the right person who knows the targets and I took it for granted that when Noah gives me China he's a person who knows everything around Ermelo.

MR PATEL: So, we'll never hear China testify, but you relied on China to identify people? You relied solely on him because you had no knowledge of who the people were?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct. China knew the people, knew the areas and he knew how I should run after the shooting. And I'll agree with you when you say it like that.

MR PATEL: Who was in charge of who in the relationship between you and China?

MR HLONGWANE: I'm trained, so you can say I'm the one who was in charge.

MR PATEL: Did you ask him, "When was the last time you were at school. How do you know these boys are from the school"? A reasonable question as a commander.

MR HLONGWANE: Which people are you referring to? The Thembisa one?

CHAIRPERSON: We're busy dealing with the attack on the Thembisa scholars. Those scholars the time that China stood in the drain or hid in the drain.

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I'm trying to explain that China was given to me by Noah as a person who knows everything around Ermelo. That's what I'm trying to explain. All the people that he pointed out, they were the people whom he knew. So I never killed anyone who was a Black Cat.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, what Mr Patel is asking you, and if you could just listen to the question. He asked you did you at any stage age China how did he know that those were boys from the school. That's what Mr Patel asked. Is that correct, Mr Patel?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I never asked him. I took it for granted that if he showed me particular people he knows them.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, was China originally from Thembisa?

MR HLONGWANE: He was staying in Ermelo. I don't know exactly in which area, but when I arrived here I was staying together with him in Thembisa. We first started in Mazakhele and then we went to stay in Noah's home in Thembisa.

MR PATEL: So, you never asked him why and how he could identify these boys, you just took his word for it? Do you think you acted as a reasonable commander to just accept your subordinate's say so?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I don't think so because Noah as my commander was happy about the targets that I attacked. So to me that shows that Noah was showing me the correct people. That's what I'm trying to explain, that all the people pointed to me by China were the real targets I was supposed to attack.

MR PATEL: Mdu, spelt M-D-U, that you were walking with and your girlfriend, when was the last time he went to school? Do you know?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know all of them.

MR PATEL: How old was this man Mdu? I beg your pardon? I didn't get it.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he estimates it is ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: The interpretation ... (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he said that he estimated that he was fifteen (15) or sixteen (16). The interpreter wishes to say something.

INTERPRETER: We didn't get that part.

MR PATEL: Whose mistake is this now? In your affidavit you say, paragraph fifty eight (58)

"I was with Mdu and my girlfriend Mphume walking in Thembisa Location when we came across three or four boys who Mdu identified as being members of the ANC and troublemakers from a school."

Your evidence this morning is:

"Three boys were singing ANC slogans. Mdu says, 'Do you hear them'. I said, 'Yes, step aside'."

Two totally different stories. Why so? Which one is the truth first, tell us? Tell us that. The one in your affidavit or your evidence this morning?

MR HLONGWANE: Chairperson, what I know and what exactly Mdu knows it is as it is stated here.

MR PATEL: Stated where? In the affidavit and your oral evidence this morning is wrong then?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I can only say what I know, is what is written here down in the paper.

MR PATEL: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: But what Mr Patel is getting at, Mr Hlongwane, in the paper you say that it was Mr Mdu who identified to you boys as being ANC members and troublemakers. This morning when you were giving evidence here, you said you were walking along with Mdu and Mphume and you heard these boys singing ANC songs, so you knew that they were ANC members because of the songs they were singing, which is not the same as what you say here. And Mr Patel is asking you what exactly is the position. Is what you say in the affidavit correct, or what you said in evidence this morning and could you explain. That is all he is asking.

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was in the company of Mdu and we were together. It's what we have written down here and that's what happened. If I somewhere made a mistake, I'm sorry about that, but that's what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So, there was no singing then?

MR HLONGWANE: There was singing, sir, coming towards us. We were to meet them. We were going down, they were going up. Mdu asked me, "Whether can you hear them", and I said, "Yes". As they were coming closer I asked him to move aside and I shot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Patel, you can proceed.

MR PATEL: What is Mdu's full name?

MR HLONGWANE: Mduduzi.

MR PATEL: And which area was he from?

MR HLONGWANE: He was a Black Cat.

CHAIRPERSON: And from which area was he from? Was he from Thembisa or Wesselton or Davula. It's Estancia or where? Which part of Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: He stayed at the hostel in Estancia. He was staying at his home and he had to leave that area to go to stay in Estancia in the hostel after they had troubles with the ANC members.

MR PATEL: Before I continue cross-examining you, I need to know from you which version you say is the true version with regard to this incident. Is it that you were walking together and Mdu identified these boys, as is written in the affidavit, or as you testified this morning that it was as a result of the signing that you identified them as being ANC? Which one is correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I said I apologise with that regard, but they were singing, and I heard them singing together with Mdu and it was confirmed by him that it's them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, would it be convenient if we just took a short adjournment. I think the interpreters need a break, and I'd also appreciate it if we could just see the legal representatives shortly in our room next door here. But we'll just take an adjournment for ten (10) minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned I said we'd only be adjourning for ten (10) minutes, but that hasn't occurred, and during the adjournment there have been discussions between the legal representatives together with the clients they represent, and I've been requested at this stage, and I see it's already ten to four, so it's not too early, to adjourn this matter to allow them to continue with their discussions in the hope that these will in the long run shorten these proceedings. So, in the circumstances we are now going to adjourn for the day, but we'll be starting tomorrow morning at half past eight again at this hall. So at this stage then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at half past eight. Thank you.

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 17 SEPTEMBER 1998

PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 17 SEPTEMBER 1998 - DAY 4

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday when we adjourned, Mr Patel was still busy questioning the witness, Mr Hlongwane. Mr Patel, are you in a position to proceed?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, if I may just explain my position at present. As the Committee is aware, there was a meeting yesterday between the people I represent, and the applicant. Some of the applicants are still considering their position and have not made a final stance. In the circumstances, we would ask the indulgence that my cross-examination be postponed and we can continue with the rest of the legal representatives, who represent other people, and come back to me when that is finished, so that we don't waste time.

In the interim, my people can consider their position and let me know what their final stance will be.

MR WILLS: I have no objection to that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, you say that some of the applicants are reconsidering. Is that - the victims at least, is it a vast number of them or which ones?

MR PATEL: Without tipping my hand too much, it appears that the majority are in favour of pulling away their opposition, or taking it away. The minority, the people who are considering, are still in the minority.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, you indicated yesterday that you were not opposing all the incidents for which amnesty is being sought by Mr Hlongwane.

MR PATEL: Yes, that is correct, not all of the incidents.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you in a position now to indicate which incidents you still have to take instructions from your clients? I am very reluctant, speaking for myself, to grant you the request that you have requested, because it is really going to make a haphazard fashion of our record.

MR PATEL: I don't think that I am in a position at present, to advise the Committee with any certainty. I wouldn't like to put my head on a block as to who has said yes and who has said no and who is no longer interested, etc.

What I want the Committee to bear in mind is that at present I represent 18 people. Together with them, are other members of their families and there is discussions and negotiations and for that reason, I am unable to lay my head on a block with regard to certainty.

I think you will also appreciate Madam, that I came into the matter very late. We have been working around the clock in order to keep the proceedings flowing. My suggestion to do matters in the way that I have suggested, is simply in order to ensure that we don't waste any more time.

I understand your problem, I certainly appreciate that it is a haphazard manner of doing things, but in the circumstances I believe it is the most fruitful way of dealing with the situation as it now exists and further than that, I cannot help.

ADV MOTATA: Yes Mr Patel, if I may come in here. Whilst you talk about the 18 victims that you represent, would it be possible to assist the Committee by providing a list of those victims to facilitate in the considering of the evidence later on. Will it be possible to have it today?

MR PATEL: That will be very possible, I believe a list has already been compiled and is in the possession of the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be necessary not only to have their names, but also their addresses as well.

MR PATEL: Their full details have been furnished, names, addresses, telephone numbers and the people in respect of whom they are victims, their names have been furnished as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anyone have objections to interposing into the cross-examination of this witness with their cross-examination?

MR HEWITT: No Mr Chairman, not as such, but our approach at this stage is obviously based upon a part-heard cross-examination so to speak. Up until this stage, we would not wish to put any questions, but simply to place on record that Mr M.Z. Khumalo, whom we represent, denies the evidence of the applicant to the effect that he personally furnished him or gave him a firearm.

But I can't say that we may not wish to cross-examine later on, if my learned friend Mr Patel, elicits more matter which concerns the persons that we represent. So at this stage, we do not wish to put any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, were you wishing to say something?

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, but not by way of objecting to Mr Patel's request. I don't know whether it is possible for Mr Patel to indicate as to whether his continuation of cross-examination, is it determined by the fact whether the victims or not opposing? If we can get that one clear, because it would seem if they don't oppose, he does not continue. If they do oppose, he does continue. I am not quite clear on that one. The basis of this request.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: The answer to that is not a clear cut, it is not yes or no, because as I understand from the people I represent, some of them might just want elaboration and clarification on certain events.

It is not an opposition in the sense that we don't want amnesty to be granted. It might well be that they just want clarification on what happened, why it happened and who was involved.

MR MPSHE: May I make a follow up then on that one Mr Chairman, if permissible. Mr Chairman, if that is the stance of my learned friend, then I really don't see why he should postpone his cross-examination. He may as well continue and finish up, in as far as the clarification as to who did what and how it happened, the applicant has testified, if there are things that his clients feel that they are not satisfied about, it is for him to put them to the applicant, for the applicant to respond.

That is my feeling.

MS KHAMPEPE: That is what I thought Mr Patel was saying initially, that he had not yet taken instructions on who amongst the people he is representing, still wants to oppose and which incidents those people want to oppose.

I didn't think that he wanted clarification because that wouldn't be the basis of his cross-examination. Evidence has been given in respect of what happened, when that thing happened and how it happened.

MR PATEL: At present and as I have a final instruction, the present position is - or rather when I commenced with cross-examination, the instruction was to oppose on all bases, on whatever basis I could, and versions were given to me, etc, etc.

Now, there has been this meeting and people have talked. There has been following the road to reconciliation, some people have expressed the view that they might be prepared to forgive and not oppose the application. Others haven't made up their minds yet.

Still others, they don't want to oppose, but they would like to know a little bit about what happened in this particular incident. I can continue the cross-examination, but at present if I do so, it will be on the full opposition. If it transpires at a later stage and I understand that my Attorney has indicated to them the time limits involved, and a cut off time of eleven o'clock, 11:30 have been given to the applicants, to come back with the final instruction, it appears to me to be the best way to deal with this, if I just stop at this present point in time, such that I don't enter into cross-examination which is going to take up the Committee's time as well as everybody else unnecessarily.

We are just looking to save some time, we are looking at the end of the day at what the purpose of this hearing is for, and if it can be resolved in a manner where people actually talk to each other, rather than through legal representatives, in the manner that we are used to, it will serve the purpose better.

I cannot take this any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody else have any objection?

MR STUART: Mr Chairman, might I just place on record, my position is similar to Mr Hewitt.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand it and I am sure the position is similar to Mr Hewitt. If anything comes up in Mr Patel's later questioning, which requires to be dealt with by you, then certainly you will be given an opportunity for that.

MR STUART: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then proceed on the basis suggested by Mr Patel in the hope that that will curtail the length of the proceedings. Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR HEWITT: No Mr Chairman, as I indicated, on the evidence so far, we contempt ourselves simply with placing on record that Mr M.Z. Khumalo denies ever having furnished or supplied this applicant with a firearm, as he testified.

But we do not wish at this stage, to put any questions to him, arising out of the evidence that has emerged so far, subject to our rights later on if necessary to put further questions, depending on further evidence.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt. Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman. As you are aware, my role is a very limited one, I just represent Mr Khaba, Bongani

Khaba who has been implicated to some extent. So I propose just to clarify some issues in accordance with my instructions. I will be very brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Black, you may proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: Mr Hlongwane, could you have a look at page 159 of Volume 1 of the bundle and if you have a look at paragraph 71 of that bundle, where you talk about the incidents at Davel and which took place at Mayor Mkhonza's house.

With reference to that paragraph, if you would then look at I understand it is Exhibit 1, it is the Afrikaans statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit E1.

MR BLACK: E1, it is the statement in Afrikaans which you made to the Police. Have you got that, I know that you can't read Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was made to the Attorney General.

MR BLACK: Sorry, yes, to the Attorney General.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I have it.

MR BLACK: We heard that it would emerge now from the reading of that statement, there were two sort of incidents or attacks which took place in Davel on the houses, and I would suggest to you that reading paragraph 9 of Exhibit E1, seems to refer to the contents largely of paragraph 71.

My reason for putting this - referring you to these statements or two paragraphs is the following, in paragraph 9, you implicate Mr Bongani Khaba as one of the leaders of the five groups and in paragraph 71 of page 159, you also refer to him in a sense, particularly on page 160, you seem to say that he had a home made firearm.

Now, my instructions are and you can either confirm or not, that Mr Khaba was in fact at Davel and that he was at Mr, Mayor, this Mayor Mkhonza's house, but that he at no time joined the group that went out on the attack, attacks or raids of the various houses as you had described.

He remained behind at the Mayor's house as one of the guards, as the Commander or leader at Davel at the time. Can you confirm that this is correct, or incorrect?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed Mr Hlongwane, I must just remind you, you are still under your former oath.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (still under oath)

MR HLONGWANE: Yes sir, I remember.

MR BLACK: What I am trying to put to you, what I have just put to you, do you confirm that Mr Bongani Khaba remained behind and guarded the property of Mr Mkhonza when these raids were carried out, as referred to in paragraph 71?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I quoted you saying that I made a mistake when I said Bongani got out. I said among the five groups and after the fifth one had been abandoned, we had four groups, and I said to Bongani he must stay behind and guard Mkhonza's place so that when we go out and attack, people mustn't get back to Mkhonza's place to attack the area.

Therefore Bongani and Mkhonza have to remain behind in the yard, and he was not armed with a home made firearm, he was armed with Mkhonza's firearm which was a shotgun.

MR BLACK: And for what it is worth to the best of your knowledge, was that shotgun a legitimately issued weapon? Mr Mkhonza was entitled to be in possession of that weapon, it was licensed?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he had two licensed firearms. It was a 38 shot and a palm gun.

MR BLACK: There is only very briefly, just one other aspect. Refer to paragraph 87 on page 165. Do I understand this correctly that it would appear that you were advised by parties or a party that Philani had returned this 9 mm (indistinct) to Bongani and that you had no personal knowledge as to whether or not this had in fact taken place?

MR HLONGWANE: No, in my evidence yesterday I said the firearm with which I was arrested in Davel, I went back to Davel to ask for my firearm from Philani and he said the gun has been given to Bongani.

MR BLACK: Okay. Then on page 166, I think you have cleared it up yesterday in your evidence, when you said that you weren't in Ermelo at the time that ...

MR HLONGWANE: Can't hear, the what?

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant is indicating that he is not hearing the interpretation. Sorry, it is my mistake, he is indicating that he doesn't have page 166 in his papers.

MR BLACK: That is correct yes. Sorry Mr Hlongwane, I remember you mentioned that yesterday, but the point I just want to make here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, you can just let the - I think he has been given a copy, thank you.

MR BLACK: Thank you, I am indebted to my learned friend. This deals really where you make an allegation that - paragraph 91 essentially, that Mr Khaba's mother was killed and we heard a gunshot and one of our members, Obet Hlabati, was shot in the chest.

What is contained in 91 and 92, is really as I understand it, not within your personal knowledge as well, you were not in Ermelo at the time. This is something that you were told?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct. I apologise, I said I made a mistake. I am not asking for amnesty with regards to the death of Bongani's mother, because I wasn't present at the time.

MR BLACK: Yes, no thanks but I understand that - the purpose I just want to in fairness to you and to Mr Bongani Khaba as well, state on record that he has testified, he has applied for amnesty in respect of this particular incident, and he testified that the reason as he understood, why his mother was killed, is that he was in the process of testifying, giving evidence before the Goldstone Commission about the Black Cats, and when they heard about that and when he came back, while he was away, he came back to find out that his mother had been shot.

I am just putting it on record as a matter of fairness, that this is his evidence, it has already been testified to. Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Black. Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I would like to put on record, that I have since Monday been instructed by four other implicated persons to act on their behalf. I have compiled a list for the benefit of the Evidence Leader.

It is Superintendent Andre Maree of the SAP in Ermelo, Warrant Officer James Von Zweel, who is a retired member previously from the SAP in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the, I thought it was Van Zyl, it is actually Von Zweel?

MR MULLER: Mr Chairman, I am acting on behalf of Mr Von Zweel, I don't know if Van Zyl and Von Zweel will be the same person, but Von Zweel's name is mentioned in E1.

Then I am also acting on behalf of Inspector Anton Botha from the SAP in Ermelo and Detective Sergeant C.J.D. Meyer, also from the SAP in Ermelo. I am already on record for Mr Philani Mthethwa from the SAP in Davel.

Mr Chairman, I would - I don't have any questions for the witness, except to put on record that the Goldstone Commission investigated the allegations that the SAP supported Inkatha or the Black Cats against the ANC, and that investigation took almost a year in 1992.

It seems to me as if it is not translated to the applicant. I would like this to be translated to him as well Mr Chairman. Is it, I am sorry, apparently it is.

The Goldstone Commission investigated the allegations that the SA Police supported the Black Cats against the ANC and allegations that the cases where ANC people laid charges against, complaints against Black Cats, that it was not investigated properly. My clients have testified extensively before the Goldstone Commission, they were cross-examined and each and every case, each and every docket was investigated by the Goldstone Commission, who found in their report, and that report

was before the Amnesty Committee during the last hearing in Ermelo, unfortunately I don't have it here, but I can make it available to the Committee, they found in that report that there is no proof that there was any - the allegations was not proven and there is no proof that the Police supported the Black Cats or didn't investigated cases against the Black Cats.

On behalf of my clients, Mr Maree, Von Zweel, Botha and Meyer, the allegations of the applicant against them, are denied. In so far as Mr Mthethwa is concerned, there was an inquest held after the death of Mrs Malinga and it was found that no one could be held responsible for the death of Mrs Malinga.

The allegations ...

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, you are interrupting us, we can't hear what is being said.

MR MULLER: On behalf of Mr Malinga, on behalf of Mr Mthethwa, the allegations against him, is also denied. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Muller. He didn't ask any questions Mr Hlongwane, you will get your opportunity later.

Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, Mr Muller specifically didn't ask you any questions, he is just putting matters on record. If he wanted a response from you, he would have asked questions, but he hasn't. So, therefore there is nothing for you to answer, because this is cross-examination at the moment.

Under re-examination, if there is something that you want to say, you can say it when Mr Wills gets an opportunity to re-examine you. Mr Swanepoel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, could you look at paragraph 52 of your application, that recounts your version of the first meeting you had in Ermelo, with the leaders of the IFP.

Do you remember that meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR SWANEPOEL: And in your evidence and in your application, you recounted several things that were told to you by Noah, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did Mayor Hlatswayo say anything at that meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: The person who was in charge at the meeting - or the Chairperson was Noah. He also expressed his views although Noah was the Chairperson of the meeting, he was part of the meeting and he also put forward his view.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but did Mayor Hlatswayo say anything and if so, what?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he said something.

MR SWANEPOEL: What did he say?

MR HLONGWANE: He said he is happy about my arrival and he will be able to sleep well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. Did he say anything about you killing people or giving you weapons?

MR HLONGWANE: I think he was involved, because the money that I used to get as a salary and also the food that they used to give to me, he was part of supplying those things.

To add, I also got ammunition from his office, from him personally. It was a 9 mm gun and one of his licensed firearms.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. At that meeting, did he say anything about giving you weapons or you killing people?

MR HLONGWANE: The death of people was Noah's responsibility. He was part of it because he gave me ammunitions and money for food. When I speak of the leadership in Ermelo, I also include him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, the question was at that meeting which is referred to in paragraph 52, at the meeting, did Mr Hlatswayo talk about provision of arms or killing people, that is the question? At the meeting, did he say anything about killing people or providing arms, at the meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: He didn't talk anything about the supply of arms, but he talked about the death of people.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record Mr Hlongwane, Mayor Hlatswayo denies being involved in the death of people or the supplying of arms. I put that to you so that you can respond to that.

MR HLONGWANE: I will answer in this way. If it was myself and I was told I was involved or implicated, I will refuse, but I know that he was involved, he was happy that I arrived in Ermelo and that they will be able to sleep well. His personally involved in those incidents, he knows about the rifle, firearms and everything. You can say this because you were not there, but I know, because I am the one who spoke to him.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right, please look at paragraph 58 of your affidavit, and 59, which recounts the death of the scholars and December.

This was already canvassed with you yesterday, when you say that Mthu identified the boys as being members of the ANC, what do you mean?

MR HLONGWANE: Maybe you didn't understand me, because I said Mthu heard them singing and I also heard them singing ANC slogans.

MR SWANEPOEL: What he said to you was simply, they were singing ANC slogans, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, I said they were singing coming towards me and I also heard them singing. When he was telling me, I was also hearing them at the same time.

They were coming closer and closer singing the ANC slogans. That is what I am saying.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, what did Mthu tell you?

MR HLONGWANE: He said can you hear them singing, and I said yes, I can hear them.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you and Mthu discuss the killing of these people before you heard them singing?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I never discussed it with him, because I couldn't take instructions from him.

MR SWANEPOEL: Is it correct that Mthu at that stage, lived in Extentia Hostel?

MR HLONGWANE: I said he used to stay in two places. I don't know whether it was the time when he was staying in the hostel or the time he was staying at his family house. I won't be able to say exactly whether he was still staying in the hostel or at his home.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, so is it correct that Mthu was merely walking along?

MR HLONGWANE: You mean walking along with me?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, walking along with you on the way to Extentia Hostel?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And Mthu did not plan any crime before he started walking with you, you did not discuss any crime that was about to be committed, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: This particular incidents, I am not saying he did all the arrangements. He only, what he did is, he pointed out the people. He never said I must kill the people.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. So he simply mentioned that they were ANC members, he never said kill them because they are ANC members, you killed them because of your general instruction to kill ANC members, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, so in fact, he did nothing wrong there?

MR HLONGWANE: You are referring to what?

MR SWANEPOEL: Is it correct that that evening when you shot the ANC scholars that were singing, Mthu did nothing wrong?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct. He didn't do anything, I am the one who fired at the people.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, and is that also true for the incident where you shot December?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it will be true.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right. Could you turn to paragraph 76 of your application, the paragraph that deals with the shoot out between yourself and the ANC members. On that specific occasion you mentioned that you were accompanied by Jomo Ntsideka, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that you were then confronted by the ANC youth, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: They said they were coming to us as we were in a group.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but their difficulty was with you specifically, not with Jomo Ntsideka, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't understand because I was not the only person who was going to be killed, they were going to kill all of us if they were - they were aiming to.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, I am getting to it. The reason why they were going to kill all of you is that they were angry at you killing people in the township, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: It was because we were killing people, together with all the people who were with me, because when I arrived here, I wasn't the only one who was killing people.

The Black Cats were also killing people. We were killing the ANC people, the ANC regarded us as killers, so they were going to kill all of us.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. Now, you said that the argument went as far as the ANC accusing me of being a KwaZulu Policeman and that they took your identity document, is that what your evidence was?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did steal it. One boy took it while we were camping at Mkhonza's place.

MR SWANEPOEL: But in any event, as soon as the trouble started, as soon as it became clear that the matter was turning violent, Jomo ran away, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Not only Jomo, all the people who were with me, ran away. Not Jomo alone. I was the only one who was left at the scene.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right, in other words Jomo did nothing wrong that day, would you agree with me?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct sir.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could you turn to paragraph 85 of your application? There you recount how you hid away from the Police when you returned from Zululand.

You hid in Mr Maseko's shop at one stage, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, you are correct, even if you are putting it correctly. If you follow it chronologically, I was first arrested by the Police and taken to Mangethi and Juta said I should be released, and they took me to Chris Ngwenya, that is where I was delivered.

Since the Police didn't trust each other and they were many, there was a problem that they might reveal the situation so I had to run away and hide, so that when they come back to look for us, because we knew that they were still coming back to look for us, and therefore I went to Maseko's place. That is what happened.

MR SWANEPOEL: Was Mr Maseko there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he is the one who put us through the back door of the shop, that is Maseko himself.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record, I put it to you that Mr Maseko denies being there at that day, and he denies any knowledge of you hiding in his shop.

MR HLONGWANE: I will agree with him that he denies, however I want you to listen to me, because I am telling you it is him who took me through the back of the store.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, could you look at paragraph 5 of Exhibit E1 that was handed to the Committee. I know you don't read Afrikaans, but I will roughly translate it for you. That was the deposition made by yourself to the Investigating Team of the Attorney General's office some nine months after you deposed to your affidavit in support of your amnesty application.

During your cross-examination the matter with the small boy running to the toilet, came to light and you say that it did happen, but it did not happen in this area, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: May you please slowly repeat your question. I don't understand your question.

MR SWANEPOEL: During your cross-examination by Mr Patel, you said that the incident you described with the small boy running to the toilet and being shot by either you or by someone else, did happen but not in this area, is that correct, and that you made a mistake in your application?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I said that.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. Now roughly translated in Annexure E1 you say you cannot remember if it was at the first attack or the second of the attacks in Davel, but at one of those attacks a young boy ran from a house to an outside toilet. Somebody in the group went after him and shot him in the toilet. What do you say about that?

MR HLONGWANE: I said the shooting at the toilet, I made a mistake. This young boy ran away towards the shop where they hacked him. At the shop in Davel. That is what I was trying to correct.

That is the correction I made, I said I made a mistake, he got out of the house, they chased him and he fell next to the shop.

MR SWANEPOEL: In paragraph 72 of your application affidavit, you say a teenage boy came running out and ran into the outside toilets, I followed him and shot at him.

MR HLONGWANE: I said yesterday that I made a mistake, I didn't do that. When the Police were investigating and also the post mortem will show that he was hacked, he wasn't shot. I said I made a mistake.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but you are making the mistake twice, in separate affidavits, ten months apart.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I agree with you. A mistake is a mistake and I accept that I made a mistake. As I am saying that the Doctor who did the post mortem will confirm what I am saying now. That was a mistake.

The person who was injured there, there are post mortem reports who could show how he died.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. Aren't you adapting your version as you get more information?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't understand exactly what your question intend to find.

MR SWANEPOEL: Aren't you changing your version of the events as more information becomes known to you?

MR HLONGWANE: Nobody told me that the boy ran to the shop. It is not what I know, but it is what I am remembering. There isn't any knowledge and I think there is a difference between knowledge and remembering.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, now your entire application is contained in paragraphs 49 - 88 of your affidavit in support thereof, is that correct, as amplified by your oral evidence, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Nowhere in those paragraphs or in your oral evidence, did you mention the name of July Mthethwa, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. And also you amplified your application, your written application in your oral evidence, by mentioning the name of Mangethi, whose full names are Elias Jwi Zwane, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: As someone who has supplied you with weapons, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is true.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. Now throughout your detailed explanation in your affidavit, you mentioned several people who did supply you with weapons, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Under cross-examination from Mr Patel, you came up with several other people who supplied you with weapons, who were not mentioned in your application, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why didn't you mention Mangethi in your application if you remember him so well?

MR HLONGWANE: He is not the only one whom I remembered yesterday. There are other people.

If I get a chance to remember after some evidence, I will be able to mention them. I even mentioned yesterday that the things that I wrote, were written at one instance and after we were discussing this verbally, I remembered exactly chronologically the events.

Therefore is there is anyone whom I remember, I will mention it, I am not trying to hide any person. You might be surprised because I will also reveal there were business people who were supporting us financially.

MR SWANEPOEL: Were you aware of the fact that Mangethi was an ANC member at the time?

MR HLONGWANE: It surprises me, I think it will be a mistake before the House. I had a way, because he was a very close friend of mine. A very close friend.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, for the record, Mangethi denies supplying you with weapons. What do you say to that?

MR HLONGWANE: Before I answer that, does he admit that he knows me?

MR SWANEPOEL: Just answer the question Mr Hlongwane.

MR HLONGWANE: I will answer your question ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, you are being cross-examined now. You must just answer the question put to you and the Advocate doesn't have to answer questions put to him, by you.

MR HLONGWANE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Mangethi denies supplying you with weapons.

MR HLONGWANE: With respect, I will say that he is making a mistake. Even his sister there, while I was in Ermelo prison, he came to see me and he also gave me R50-00. I don't know what, it might be between me and him if he now denies that he knows me.

MR SWANEPOEL: If the Committee will just bear with me for a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Hlongwane, are you aware that Mr Mkhonza Dingaan Maluleka and Andries Mtunzi, has been indicted by the Attorney General to appear in front of the High Court to answer to certain charges, which relates to the incidents of the attacks on ANC houses, related to in your application? Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I am the witness, I know that.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record, I wish to state that these people deny the version of the applicant relating to those incidents. As they have already been indicted at this stage, they are not prepared to make any comment, save to bluntly deny the version of the applicant Mr Chairperson.

Thank you Mr Applicant, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Swanepoel. Mr Mpshe, I think I will ask you to ask questions after Mr Patel has finished his cross-examination, it might be better, and also with re-examination, I think it will be better once Mr Patel has finished his cross-examination.

Mr Patel, are you in a position to proceed now, or do you have to get further instructions, what is the position?

MR PATEL: I think a half an hour adjournment would suit me at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, half an hour, if it is sooner, if it is shorter, so much the better. Thank you. We will take a short adjournment at this stage.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL: (cont)

As it pleases you Mr Chairman. I am working as best as we have been able to under the time constraints set on us.

The following, we would like to place on record, that all of the people that we represent, at this stage are not going to formally withdraw their opposition. However, they want their names to be recorded as still opposing depending on whether or not satisfactory answers are going to be furnished by the applicant in respect to certain questions that I have been asked to put.

The list of the victims number 22, the first of which is Lucy Sibanyoni, the second is Miriam Mabel Shongwe, the third is Madoda Lionel Mbokwane, the fourth is Georgina Thembie Nkosi, the fifth is Johannes Somandla Mabusa, he is commonly known as Mr Crucket, the sixth person is Cornelia Suzanna Maseko, the seventh is Thami Khaba, the eight is Georgina Ndlovu, the ninth is Lindiwe Makhubu, the tenth is Jeanette Phikile Mtsweni, the eleventh is Jeremiah Mkhulenyelwa Mashinini, Jabulani Philemon Malinga, that would be twelfth. Thirteen is John Bloze, fourteen is Lena Bloze, fifteen is Lucky Nkosi, sixteen is Julia Phungwayo, seventeen is Julia Kubheka, eighteen is Lucas Hlophe, nineteen is Tilly Malaza born Nkosi, twenty is Andries Maphosa, twenty one is Aaron Mkomo and finally there is Zulu Hezekiel (indistinct).

I have been instructed to put limited questions just in order to get clarity on certain things.

ADV MOTATA: Just before that Mr Patel, if I may interpose here. Are you in a position to indicate in respect of which incidents, the opposition relates or to which incidents the opposition relates?

MR PATEL: The instruction that I have at present sir, is simply that the opposition is not been formally withdrawn as such in respect of all the applicants whom I have mentioned.

The feeling is that in respect of these limited questions which I am going to ask, which won't number more than ten, if the answers are satisfactory, the chances are that the opposition will disappear.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, I really do not understand you. Truly speaking, you are saying the opposition is not being formally withdrawn. What really does that mean? When are you going to proceed with the opposition for purposes of this period, this minute, you are not withdrawing your opposition, yet you will be proceeding to put certain questions on Mr Hlongwane.

You are aware of course of the provisions of the Act that you are at liberty to oppose on any ground as long as your opposition relates to Section 20(2) and also relates to the criteria in terms of Section 29(3).

I do not understand you when you say you are not going to formally withdraw your opposition. When are you going to take it up, we don't have months, we don't have weeks to sit and hear this matter. You either proceed with your opposition and put questions in relation to the opposition that you have been instructed to do, or you really reconsider your position when it comes to that particular issue of opposition.

MR PATEL: I think I can really consider my position so soon as I have put these questions that I have been asked to put, then I can make a ...

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you still going to ask us to adjourn the matter for you to reconsider your position? You requested us to give you 15 minutes or 30 minutes to take instructions. We must presume that you have not taken the proper instructions from your clients.

ADV MOTATA: And just before you answer, I am of the opinion that the victims and the people you represent, can actually oppose in those incidents where they are involved, and if you are unable to tell this Committee which incidents your clients oppose, we don't know if it is a workable thing, because you should be, you have instructions, I have no doubt about it, unless you say your clients are involved as victims in all the incidents in respect of which the applicant seeks amnesty.

MR PATEL: That is not the case sir. Let me say this, to a large extent the victims that I represent, seem to be working together as a group.

Most of them seem to be - the situation has been explained and they have spoken to the applicant and most of them seem to be prepared to forgive and to forget and look to the future.

As a group they have decided that these remaining questions need to be answered and if those remaining questions are answered satisfactorily, then in that event, the likelihood is that the opposition will be withdrawn.

ADV MOTATA: And if not?

MR PATEL: If not, then we will continue with proper cross-examination as we commenced with. That is - this is the way it has worked. They work together as a group and they have discussed it as a group, which I think is the right way to do things.

In some respects, they have been able to console each other and take consolation from what the applicant has said and they approach it on this basis, and I can do no more than to approach the Committee with my situation as it exists.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Patel, I do not follow. Please assist me personally. You say that you've got to put certain questions and if they are answered satisfactorily, the opposition would be withdrawn. If not, then you have to continue with your cross-examination as normal. When is that going to happen?

MR PATEL: Immediately sir.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Patel, are your instructions to the effect that the offences to which the application relates, are not acts associated with a political objective? Are those your instructions?

MR PATEL: I think it is a mixed bag, but I would say that it is more, it relates more to full disclosure than rather to a political objective.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you do have a basis for opposing the application, why don't you proceed then on those basis? Obviously we have to listen to evidence in a structured fashion and that is why we want to know in respect of which evidence, in respect of which incidents are you saying there hasn't been a full disclosure from Mr Hlongwane.

We have to listen to your evidence in a structured fashion, it has to do with assisting us at the end of the day. We have to evaluate that evidence and you as Counsel, we would appreciate it you could also just go to a little extent in trying to assist us in getting evidence in a much more structured fashion.

MR WILLS: If I may say something Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, it seems to me that my learned friend is saying that because of his clients' vacillation in this matter as to the approach in this matter, their vacillation is in effect determining the procedures that should be adopted at this hearing. He is in effect saying that his clients, depending on the answers that are forthcoming in the next ten questions, will determine how this matter is to be conducted at procedural level.

Whether it is to stand down further, whether further questions are going to be directed. With respect, that cannot be allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Patel, you should just cross-examine, just continue the cross-examination, be it ten questions or more, whatever you require, but I don't think we should just go in stops and starts.

MR PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwane, you remember the attack on a person by the name of Dumisani Patrick Maseko, also known as Carlton?

MS KHAMPEPE: Which incident is that Mr Patel, for my assistance?

MR PATEL: As I have it, it took place on the 24th of December 1991 in Wesselton near the home of the deceased, Patrick Dumisani Maseko. Do you have any knowledge of this particular attack?

MR HLONGWANE: I will have a problem in answering the question. We had a meeting, the leadership was trying to help me remember the different places. What is written in my statement, is what I can remember.

They were helping me to remember with incidents relating to events which happened in shops and other areas. I am prepared to speak the truth.

MR PATEL: I am afraid I didn't hear any translation.

INTERPRETER: We are on.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear now Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: Yes, I can hear through this one.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer there Mr Patel, was that the effect of the answer was that the applicant said that he can recall what is contained in the documentation put up here, and that he is prepared to tell the truth.

He didn't specifically say that he can recall the incident relating to Dumisani Maseko.

MR PATEL: Can you recall having received a report from anyone of your subordinates, regarding an attack on Dumisani Patrick Maseko, and this would have been on the date I mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Christmas Eve, that is the 24th of December 1991.

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to repeat in this way, the people whose names are not mentioned in my papers, some people reminded me yesterday about incidents that happened in shops and about other areas, it is possible that I might say now that I don't know the person.

MR MOLOI: Mr Hlongwane please, the question is simple, do you remember or don't you, that is the question.

MR HLONGWANE: I would say yes or no. Chairperson, however yesterday I talked or I mentioned people who are not written in the statements, because people reminded me of the people. I won't be able to say yes or no with respect, to people who got injured in different areas.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane, we don't want hearsay evidence. Do you have personal knowledge of the killing of Dumisani Maseko, yes or no?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

ADV MOTATA: Before you proceed Mr Patel, may I come in. Did you instruct subordinates to conduct some other attacks, did you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I did.

ADV MOTATA: And this one is not one of them, according to you, because you can't recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that would be correct.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: If I could maybe jog your memory a little bit, this young boy that was killed in the panga attack was a university student at Mgoyi University. Do you still not remember receiving a report from any of your subordinates regarding such an attack?

MR HLONGWANE: Two people were killed who were scholars. One was training to become a Doctor and the other whom I killed, was Papa and Obet. I won't be able to say specifically who was schooling where.

MR PATEL: Yes. Do you remember having received a report from any of your underlings regarding the killing of one Buti Matthews Matsweni who was killed on the 28th of October 1991? He was killed next to a tavern in Davel also with regard to a panga attack and his face was extremely disfigured as a result of the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: What was the date?

MR PATEL: 28 October 1991?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't remember.

MR PATEL: With regard to the Davel incidents ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that Mr Patel, Davel and Davule, are they the same place?

MR PATEL: As I understand it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PATEL: You remember the incident you talked about where you entered the house and shot two shots and somebody entered the other room, and hacked the old woman to death with a panga. Do you recall that, testifying about that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR PATEL: Now, Philemon Malinga, one of the victims I represent, would like to know from you if you can tell this Committee the name of the person who actually killed his mother, the name or names of people who actually did the deed.

MR HLONGWANE: It were the young boys in my company and also those who were under the command of Mandla Maluleka and those who were also under Dingaan, whose surname I have forgotten, and those who were also the command of July Mthethwa. I am just mentioning the leaders who were in charge of these people, because we all ended up at the Malinga place.

MR PATEL: My question is, you see to some extent people find it important to know who exactly, we understand that it was a mob like situation, but can you tell the Committee the exact names of the people who actually did the deed in so far as the attack on his mother is concerned?

MR HLONGWANE: I was, it was myself, Israel Hlongwane, Mandla Maluleka, China, Sideka, Papa, Obet Hlabati.

MR PATEL: The names that you have just mentioned, was that the group that you headed, is that what you are saying?

MR HLONGWANE: No. All the groups were in the Malinga place, so I am mentioning all of them.

Some of the groups arrived earlier, before I went into the house myself. The second group came when Mandla kicked the door, and I entered the house, fired two shots and I would say we were all at the place, so I am mentioning all the people who were present.

MR PATEL: All right. We know that some people were armed with firearms and some people were armed with pangas, correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: In respect of the people who entered that particular house, who was armed with pangas?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Obet Hlabati, Jomo, Ntunsi, Papa and Mthu.

MR PATEL: These five people all entered this particular house that you mentioned that had pangas?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. Yes, they entered the house.

MR PATEL: So if I make the logical deduction, one or all of them, or some of them, took part in the killing of the old lady, would that be a logical deduction, would you agree with that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: In this attack on this particular home, Zachariah Phololo, who was the brother of Philemon Malinga, who was also injured also as a result of a panga attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Patel, what was this man's name, Zachariah?

MR PATEL: Phololo. I think that would be his middle name and his last name would be Malinga. He was the brother of Philemon, and he subsequently died. He was also injured in this attack, also assaulted with pangas.

Do you know if anybody else, apart from the old lady was assaulted with pangas that night, and by whom?

MR HLONGWANE: On that particular day?

MR PATEL: Yes?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: That particular day, that particular house. The house where you entered, where you fired two shots, was there another young boy who was struck with pangas in that house on that night?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Who was responsible, who did that attack?

MR HLONGWANE: Mthu, Papa, Happy Makwanasi and Obet Hlabati, Sideka and Basi Zulu.

However, he was caught by Jomo while he was running away, Jomo Shongwe.

MR PATEL: According to Mr Malinga who was present that night, there were two other people who he identified. These are Mike and Doctor, both with the surname Matebula. Do you recall that they were there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they were present.

MR PATEL: Doctor and Mike Matebula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they were present.

MR PATEL: Mr Malinga would like to know from you what role they played, what acts did they commit, these two people?

MR HLONGWANE: (No translation)

ADV MOTATA: Mr Hlongwane, please I don't intend interrupting your evidence, but the question is during that attack at that house on that day, what role did Mike and Doctor Matebula play. Can you answer that question?

MR HLONGWANE: They broke the windows and also burning the house with petrol.

MR PATEL: Is that all that they did? They didn't attack anybody physically?

MR HLONGWANE: If I am not making a mistake, Doctor entered the Malinga house and he was one of those who was armed with a panga.

MR PATEL: Did you see him hit anybody with that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they were all hacking a person.

MR PATEL: Who did you see him hitting?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question.

MR PATEL: Whom did you see him hitting?

MR HLONGWANE: The boy that they caught, I am sorry, when we entered the house after breaking the windows, Doctor entered into one of the rooms where there was this lady and he hacked her. I did see him.

MR PATEL: He was part of the attack on the mother of Philemon?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: You had a talk yesterday with Lindiwe Makhubu, do you recall that, regarding the death of her fiance, Reginald Masuko?

MR HLONGWANE: When did she die?

MR PATEL: Her fiance died on the 30th of August 1992 and you told her that you were not present at the time, but you did receive a phone call about this incident.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, but where was that person killed? I would like to find out specifically with regard to the place.

MR PATEL: He was taken from the local disco I believe, I believe it is called the Disco Tonight and his body was eventually found approximately 100 metres away from the disco.

This is the lady you spoke to yesterday and she says that you told her that you had received a phone call about this particular incident.

MR HLONGWANE: If I am not making a mistake, the call that I got it is with regard to a boy who was taken away from the disco by Papa, Obet. It was Papa, Obet, Bafana, Matino. I can't remember the fifth person.

The two came out of the disco and they were killed just some distance from the disco.

MR PATEL: Who made the phone call to you, who reported the incident to you?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Papa who used to call me. Papa knew exactly where I stayed, and he used to visit me in Natal.

Papa called me, and also Obet used to call me very often. Even while I was in Empangeni at my office, Chris was also calling me before he died.

MR PATEL: Am I to understand correctly that even after you left the Ermelo area, your subordinates still reported incidents to you?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I won't say they were reporting. They were just telling me exactly what was happening, they were just sort of discussing. They would tell me to say we have killed so and so.

I was a member of the Hit Squad in Natal, I was not involved here, they were just telling me.

MR PATEL: Why were you released after your arrest at Davel?

MR HLONGWANE: It was because we were working together with the Police.

MR PATEL: Who was it that in fact ordered your release?

MR HLONGWANE: Philani came with the keys and that is how we cot out of the cells. Philani Mthethwa.

MR PATEL: Did Mr Mangethi play any role in your release?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. I would say that is another incident, that was the situation where I was arrested with arms at the taxi rank in Ermelo and Davel's situation is a different one.

I was arrested with two firearms in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: Tell us about the taxi rank incident, what role did Mangethi play in ordering your release?

MR HLONGWANE: I arrived at the taxi rank and I was arrested by a number of Policemen. I was together with Papa. They took us to the Police station where they filled their car with petrol.

After that, they took us to Mangethi and Mangethi instructed Doctor to release me and Papa and he released us.

MR PATEL: Doctor was a Policeman?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, he was under the CID Unit.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think just before re-examination, Mr Wills, I just ask the other representatives if they have got any questions, further cross-examination arising out of this new evidence we have heard. Mr Hewitt?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Yes Mr Chairman, I do have certain further questions I wish to put. I have noticed Mr Hlongwane, while you have been cross-examined by my learned friend Mr Patel, that you refer to separate sheets of paper that don't appear to be part of your affidavit. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: No, that is not true. It is a lie.

MR HEWITT: I have also observed that you referred to those separate sheets of paper which are at the front of the table where you are sitting, whenever you are asked to give the names of people who performed certain deeds and were associated with you, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I look at the names of people just to refresh my mind. I do not know whether it's not allowed, and I'm sorry if it's not.

MR HEWITT: All right. Okay. Those separate sheets of paper, do they contain, and from what I have seen from here, it looks like they contain lists of typed names, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct. Those are the names of the Black Cats. Names which are typed down.

MR HEWITT: How many lists do you have in front of you there, separate from your affidavit of people's names?

MR HLONGWANE: One, I only have one.

MR HEWITT: And the other document upon which your left hand is now, what are those documents that you have there as well?

MR HLONGWANE: Let me take it one by one. The paper I'm holding is names of the Black Cats in the leadership ... (intervention)

MR HEWITT: All right. Just let's just do this - just wait. Let us just do this step by step so we know what we're talking about. The first document that you handed. How many separate pages do you have there? How many separate pages do you have there now?

MR HLONGWANE: There are two.

MR HEWITT: Only two?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And do each of those pages, does it have typing on them or handwriting? Okay, okay sure.

MR HLONGWANE: They are all typed. Both of them are typed. One it's with me and the other is with my legal representative.

MR HEWITT: Yes. And the typing on each of those sheets of paper, are they all names of people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: And are there names of Black Cats there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names of members of the South African Police there?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there of leaders of the IFP in Ermelo, for example?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there of leaders of the IFP in Davula or Davel?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: Are there names there on that list of the higher structures of the IFP? For example, the leadership in Ulundi.

MR HLONGWANE: No, they are not here. The people who are here are Black Cats, police, and the leadership in Ermelo and Davel. Not even a single one from Ulundi is mentioned.

MR HEWITT: Right. Now, you told us the various people who's names appear there. Are the names of the police on your lists, are they under a heading of some sort? In other words, do all the names of the policemen appear under a heading like the South African Police?

MR HLONGWANE: No. I've just written "Police, Davula Inkatha leadership, Ermelo", and that's how it's written.

MR HEWITT: Is that at the top of each list? Are the names in categories? That's what I want to know.

MR HLONGWANE: No, they are mixed up. I just wrote them as I remembered the names.

MR HEWITT: But they're typed, are they?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they are.

MR HEWITT: Now, are you saying to us that you might have a policeman's name, like a white policeman's name and directly under it a black mayor's name of Davel, or are they separate under headings of white policemen, members of IFP at Davel? That's what I want to know about your lists.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't it be easier if he had sight of it instead of spending all this time trying to extract it?

MR HEWITT: Well, the reason I'm doing this, Mr Chairman, I don't know what other information may be on there that the witness has written himself which might be privileged. That's why I'm not venturing into that field. But if they can be handed up with consent I don't mind, but that's obviously a matter which my learned friend Mr Wills must address his mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know what Mr Wills' attitude is. MR WILLS: I'm not sure which documents are being referred to. I'd like to have a quick look at them before I ... (intervention)

MR HEWITT: Well, before we do that, Mr Chairman, I would like to ask just one question before we do that. Who gave you those lists? Who gave you those lists that we're talking about with all these people's names on it?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, listen, nobody gave me the list. I'm the one who type or write down all the list, because I wanted to refresh my memory with the list.

MR HEWITT: Did you do the typing of those names?

MR HLONGWANE: No, they were typed by my girlfriend from KwaZulu-Natal, not from Ermelo, but KwaZulu-Natal.

MR HEWITT: Right. And on that list are there names of people that are not referred to in your affidavit, because we've heard that that is the position in your evidence today?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, since I had to type it. I wanted to refresh my memory. So it's possible.

MR HEWITT: So, at the time you made your affidavit, you didn't remember those people's names but you subsequently, after making your affidavit, you got your girlfriend to type the names of certain persons that are not mentioned in your affidavit, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, if you are here you might have heard that some things that I remembered later, and I'll mention them if I do remember.

MR HEWITT: Yes, we know that. Those lists that we've been asking you questions about, those list, were they all typed up by your girlfriend after you made this affidavit in support of your amnesty application? That's all I want to know now.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: So, you remembered the names of people on that typed list your girlfriend typed out that are not in your affidavit?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR HEWITT: And you remembered them much later than you made the affidavit? Correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, you are correct.

MR HEWITT: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Black?

MR BLACK: I've no questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: I have two short questions, Mr Chairman. Might I just at the outset, I'm unsure whether I did this initially under cross-examination, one of accused that has been indicted, that has also been mentioned here, is also Bafana Oscar Khumalo. I'm unsure whether I included him in that group. He's also one of the people who are accused and who is currently making use of his rights not to implicate himself.

Now, Mr Hlongwane, I could not help it but notice your tendency to initially forget incidents and then after leading questions by my learned friend Patel, come up with specific names and specific people who did things. Now, as far as the hacking to death incident that you canvassed is concerned. You mentioned that Mdu was present as well, Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. But for the past two days, both in your application and in annexure or EXHIBIT E1 that was handed up to the Committee and in your extensively amplified oral evidence, his name never came up related to that incident, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. The incident at the Ermelo taxi rank where you were arrested, you said you were arrested with firearms, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, is that the incident that is described in paragraphs eighty three (83), eighty four (84) and eighty five (85) of your amnesty application, or is that a separate incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. But in this incident you were not arrested with firearms, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And in the incident described in your amnesty application the name of Mangethi is not mentioned anywhere, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I have explained as to why it is not.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. And the names of Mike and Dr Mathibula, throughout extensive cross-examination and your detailed application, and an additional affidavit, never came up until your cross-examination now by Mr Patel, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, and I've explained why they have to appear in this fashion.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes. As you please, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination.

MR WILLS: No re-examination. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Mr Mpshe, let me ask you first.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwane, Bhobholina's mother, Zini Shongwe, as well as the woman who was killed in Davel in that house that was burning, who's now being known as Mrs Malinga, would you agree with me that these two woman were not on your hit list?

MR HLONGWANE: Mrs Shongwe was in the list. That's where we were supposed to attack whatever we find inside. MamZini was one of the direct target and in the Malinga family we were supposed to attack anything which ... (intervention)

MR MPSHE: Okay, let me separate them for your convenience. Mrs Zini Shongwe, the mother to Bhobholina, she was not your initial target? The target was her son?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: Now, if you had succeeded to kill Bhobholina, the reason for killing him, you wouldn't be able to use it for killing his mother?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: Now, let's move to Mrs Malinga, the woman in Davel. That woman also was not your target. She just happened to be in the house when you attacked that house.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: And in respect of this woman as well, Mrs Malinga, you cannot give any political justification for killing her.

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to explain, sir. Mr Mkhonza said we are going to attack and kill in that area. Which means, we were supposed to kill ANC members. That was the aim of the attack. I was told to go and kill the ANC because it's only in the ANC place.

MR MPSHE: Had you ascertained whether she was ANC member or not?

MR HLONGWANE: My work is not to ascertain ... (intervention)

MR MPSHE: Yes, but you were told to kill ANC members.

MR HLONGWANE: ... but is to take instructions and execute them. Yes.

MR MPSHE: Now, had you ascertained whether she was ANC in order for her just to be killed by yourselves?

MR HLONGWANE: Chairperson, I said that my work is to take an instruction from the leadership and if they confirm that that person is an ANC, what I'm supposed to do is to go and kill the person.

MR MPSHE: All right. Okay. Perhaps that may be a point for argument, but a last question on this very aspect. Your instruction was to kill ANC members?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: Let's leave it at that. Now, let's move to the killing of Thembisa scholars, that's paragraph fifty seven (57), page one hundred and fifty four (154). To remind you, this is an incident where you met the two school boys who were identified by China, do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: How did China identify the two boys for you? What did he do?

MR HLONGWANE: He was walking in front of me, not far from me. After passing them he raised up his hand and I realised that I had to attack, and I attacked them.

MR MPSHE: So, all he did is to go past them, show a hand, and you kill?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's how he indicated to me.

MR MPSHE: Did you know the criteria China used in order to determine whether people were ANC or not, yourself?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I knew.

MR MPSHE: Right, what would he do? What was the criteria?

MR HLONGWANE: He will pass the person. For example, we will go to a house. He will point it out and show me the house, their cars and if we were to attack targets walking on foot, when he passes that particular person and raises up his hand and then I know it's the time to shoot, and that's how he indicated the targets to me.

MR MPSHE: I don't want you to be confused. What you are describing is what he would do to indicate to you whether they are ANC members or not, but my last question was on the criteria and you said you knew that. I don't know whether you understand me well.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your question I think, Mr Mpshe. Just repeat it.

MR MPSHE: Did you know the criteria that China used in identifying members of ANC?

MR HLONGWANE: No, Chairperson, all that I know was that China is a person who is a resident of Ermelo. He knows all the members of the ANC.

MR MPSHE: So your answer is you did not know the criteria used. That's all.

MRS KHAMPEPE: Isn't the answer, Mr Mpshe, that China was aware who was an ANC member or not as being arrested and in Ermelo?

MR MPSHE: Yes, Ma'am, with respect, that is why I say he did not know the criteria, but as he explained, he knew that. So I will leave it at that. Thank you. Let's move to a Mr Ndlovu, the person known as December. Do you recall you said his death was ordered because he had killed Mr Mkhwanazi's son?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MPSHE: Now my question is. If December had killed Mkhonza's son - no, no, let me put it this way. My apology. If December had not killed Mr Mkhonza's, you would not have killed him.

MR HLONGWANE: You mean Mkhwanazi?

MR MPSHE: Mkhwanazi's son, sorry. My apology.

MR HLONGWANE: They were not going to give me instruction to kill him and I wasn't going to kill him.

MR MPSHE: That's it. So, this can be taken as a revenge, the killing of December.

MR HLONGWANE: I will put in this way. I kill him because at the time, to explain, the Black Cats were being killed by the members of the ANC and that was the time at which the Mkhwanazi's son was killed. Therefore the death of December, it was because he was part of the ANC members who killed the Mkhwanazi son.

MR MPSHE: Indulgence, Mr Chairman. Just one last question. Page one hundred and sixty seven (167), paragraph ninety four (94). That's where you testify about the eight hundred rand (R800,00) and the grocery. My questions is actually a follow up on what my learned friend, your lawyer, ask you when you were testifying on this. Now my question is. Was this eight hundred rand (R800,00) that was given to you per month, payment for your operations?

MR HLONGWANE: No, Chairperson, during the training that I had in Mkuze and when I was training the people, I was getting a salary. Even if I didn't come here, I was still going to get paid a salary. So, when I came back here they were still paying me the same salary. That is my salary. I wasn't paid according to the work or hitting a target.

MR MPSHE: All right. Perhaps it's a little bit unfair, but let me try it. Had you not carried out this operation -had you not carried out these operations in Ermelo, as well as Davel, would you have received the eight hundred rand (R800,00)?

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Mpshe, if you haven't done your work for the last two months would you get a salary if you didn't work?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that's exactly what I'm trying to find out because I'm looking ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then ask him.

MR MPSHE: The line of my question, Mr Chairman, is based on the provisions of the Act. That's exactly what I am looking for.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, M Z Khumalo was since to proceed paying me the salary.

MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Should we now adjourn to half past eleven for the tea adjournment.

[SHORT ADJOURNMENT]

[ON RESUMPTION]

MR MOLOI: I have none thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOTATA: Just two, Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane, under cross-examination you said you would even tell about business people who were collecting money. What was that money collected for?

MR HLONGWANE: It was collected to support the Black Cats for transport to Ulundi to meetings or rally meetings.

MR MOTATA: Were those the business people around the Ermelo district?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct, in Ermelo.

MR MOTATA: And lastly, you said Humphrey Ndlovu provided arms. You recall saying so?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR MOTATA: Under whose care were those arms when they reached Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE: They were under me and Noah Mqobakazi.

MR MOTATA: And since you were residing at Mkhonza, were they kept there where you resided?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, and if I had to work at Davel I had to take them to Davel and bring them back at Mkhonza's place.

MR MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTATA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions?

MRS KHAMPEPE: I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MRS KHAMPEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of the questions put by Mr Motata, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

MR PATEL: None, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL

MR HEWITT: None, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT

MR BLACK: I also have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK

MR MULLER: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLER

MR SWANEPOEL: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Hlongwane, you can stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, that is the case for the applicants whom I represent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

CASE FOR THE APPLICANTS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: I don't intend to call any witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: We don't propose to lead any witnesses.

MR BLACK: I won't be leading any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: I won't call any witnesses, Mr Chairman.

MR SWANEPOEL: No witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magadi, I left you out.

MR MAGADI: I have no witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that then brings this hearing - we must just make arrangements with regard to the question of submissions and argument. I don't know if the legal representatives wish to - have you finalised dates in that regard?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we have not finalised dates, but certain days were mooted, but this is subject to my learned friends' confirmation later. We suggest that if short heads could be filed by the 16th of November and then argument would be done on the 20th of November, but this is tentative depending on their later confirmation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what we should do before we adjourn is at least fix the date for the submission of the heads. Can it not be sooner than the 16th of November? It's quite long. It's two (2) months.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, the only concern we have is the typing of the record. I would need the record in order to prepare argument, but if we could have a period of two weeks after the record. The problem therein lies with some of us, for example, myself and Mr Falconer are both involved in another commission and if the record comes at the wrong time then we have to devote ourselves for two weeks for that commission. But I agree if, for example, the record could be provided within two weeks then - or we could get the record within two or three weeks then we could make it earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we're talking about the record of this particular portion. I think the - I haven't seen the Hammarsdale record yet. Is that available yet?

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that should be available by now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the record for this hearing shouldn't take too long to type. After all we've only been having evidence for a day and a portion. So, I would expect, you know, if the people are quick in getting it across to the stenographers, it shouldn't take long in actual typing. Could we have the heads of argument in by the end of October? That would be for the whole lot, Mr Wills. For Durban, Empangeni.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would imagine that we would be submitting full heads in respect of the total application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And, Mr Magadi, you've arranged to inform Mr Stewart of that?

MR MAGADI: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will have to confirm that with the counsel, Mr Stewart.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be suitable then if we say the heads of argument in by, if you want to submit heads, because I know sometimes the implicated people they don't want to put up any argument. They don't have to, but we would be expecting heads certainly from the applicants and those parties objecting to the applications.

Yes, well then before we adjourn I would just like to thank everybody who has made it possible for the holding of this hearing. The interpreters for the work they've done. For the catering which we've received here. I must say, it was very good. To the authorities for providing this very nice venue. I'll come to you now. To the security people who provided security here and the witness protection program people for the work that they've done. The sound technologists. And in fact everybody involved in the logistics and arrangements of the hearing, I thank you very much and I also thank all the people for attending the hearing. Thank you very much. Mr Mpshe, you said you want to say something.

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thanks for the indulgence. Mr Chairman, in compliance with the section 22 of the Act, as it is usually done, to put on record the names of victims as well as their particulars. Mr Chairman, I do have the names. There are 26 in all, but unfortunately they did not give what is supposed to be on the list. Would it be apposite, Mr Chairman, that I just mention that there are 26 victims and the names will be submitted in Cape Town in a written form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. What we would like as well, is at the time when submissions are made, either at argument or with the heads, the list of victims as well, I know Mr Patel has given a list here, but then that would also apply to Mr Ngubane who in the past has been representing the victims in KwaZulu-Natal.

MR MPSHE: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chair. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we've now been requested as far as possible to make reference to the victims in our decisions for them to be forwarded on to the Reparations Committee for consideration there. Thank you very much indeed everybody. I'd also like to - I omitted to thank the legal representatives for the assistance they've given in the hearing as well, thank you very much in deed. Thank you. Bye-bye.