MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman we are in a position to call the second applicant, I don't know what the lunch arrangements are?
CHAIRPERSON: We don't propose to adjourn until 1 o'clock so we've got 20 minutes, we might as well ...
MR LANDMAN: I then call Joseph ...
MACHINE OFF
MR SANDI: Are you going to take an oath or an affirmation?
MR KGOELE: (Inaudible).
MR SANDI: Are you going to take an oath or an affirmation?
JOSEPH KGOELE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele in 1987 were you a member of MK?
MR SANDI: Sorry Mr Landman I thought I would ask him in what language is he going to testify?
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman he's indicated to me that he will testify in English. If you could just possibly confirm that?
MR SANDI: English will be on channel 2 Mr Kgoele
MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele are you going to give your evidence in English?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele in 1987 were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: When did you join MK?
MR KGOELE: 1982.
MR LANDMAN: Between 1982 and 1987 had you received political training from MK members in neighbouring countries?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Had you been instructed as to the policy of the ANC and MK in regard to what were legitimate targets?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Now you've heard Mr Shoke testify this morning as to what that policy was in regard to targets. Do you confirm that?
MR KGOELE: Yes I do.
MR LANDMAN: You were involved in the bomb blast that took place outside the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court in 1987. Is that correct?
MR KGOELE: Yes it is correct.
MR LANDMAN: Would you explain to the Committee how you first became involved in that particular incident?
MR KGOELE: As a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. Prior to my joining the African National Congress I had endured a lot of suffering, that suffering stems primarily from the fact that I was denied a vote in my own land of birth. Furthermore, all the Blacks in South Africa were made (indistinct) in their own land of birth so after joining the African National Congress and undergoing their military training I was assigned by General Nyanda to do a surveillance of possible targets or military targets that would be targeted by a member of Umkhonto weSizwe and in that regard me also. So after that General Nyanda made reference to me about the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court so I surveyed that place to verify the validity or the legitimacy of our target and after that I brief General Nyanda who then told me that that would be the legitimate target for us to attack.
MR LANDMAN: Could you explain at this stage what would have been the object of attacking that target?
MR KGOELE: The object would have been to send a message to the South African regime of that time that though - that they were not only one people who could not die. Previously the South African regime had attacked African National Congress bases in the neighbouring countries, i.e. Mozambique, Madola and Maseru and the South African Forces killed our cadres and at times civilians in those attacks so by us staging this attack, was to send a message to them and to send a message to the people of South Africa that Umkhonto was there and Umkhonto weSizwe would liberate them.
MR LANDMAN: And who was to be specifically targeted at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court?
MR KGOELE: The military personnel or any person who had to do or who was involved in the State organs like the police or the military.
MR LANDMAN: After you had surveyed the area at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court and had reported back to General Nyanda, what further discussions did you have with him?
MR KGOELE: The discussion centred around trying to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible and he even made insinuation or suggested that we use a decoy bomb that we had learned from past experience that whenever there was an explosion, the police will sort of cordon off the area and they will all be isolated by themselves and they would be the main target.
MR LANDMAN: Could you just explain when the police would put up a cordon, where would the civilians be?
MR KGOELE: After a cordon civilians will always be far away because the main purpose of the cordon, as far as I'm concerned, is to keep civilians away from a particular area so the only people who would have been around there would have been the police.
MR LANDMAN: In connection with this particular operation, how were you to be sure that there were only police within the cordon?
MR KGOELE: After the decoy bomb went off I stood somewhere watching the whole place, I think I was about 100 or 150 metres away from the actual place so I had to make sure that it was only the police who would seem to be around the particular area and the way the target was chosen was that we did not choose at a busy street, we choose the back street of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court and the time also had an effect or had a factor on this because we knew that during a particular time people would be at work or the Court would be in process so the people coming in and out of that particular place will be the police so we had to ensure that we targeted solely the police.
MR LANDMAN: Was this discussed between yourself and General Nyanda at the time?
MR KGOELE: Yes that is so.
MR LANDMAN: Were any plans made as to how the main bomb was to be detonated?
MR KGOELE: Yes, it was to be detonated after the limpet mine had gone off and the police had cordoned off the area and they were the only people within that proximity.
MR LANDMAN: Was it discussed what the vice should be used to detonate the main bomb?
MR KGOELE: Yes as Mr Shoke had previously indicated, I was given some remote control devices.
MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Kgoele after you and General Nyanda had discussed this plan, did you have any discussions with Mr Shoke?
MR KGOELE: The discussions I had with Mr Shoke related to the usage of the remote control devices and the location of the DLB, that is the dead letter boxes where I would be able to retrieve the explosives that I was going to use on that particular day.
MR LANDMAN: Were you given any training in the use of the devices and the explosives?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Who gave you that training and what did that training consist of?
MR KGOELE: The training of using the explosives was given to me by totally different people. Mr Shoke took me along the paces of using the remote control device.
MR LANDMAN: By the - did you then return to Johannesburg from Swaziland?
MR KGOELE: As stated earlier I'd been in and out of Swaziland on a number of occasions, not precisely to go and talk about the Magistrate Court, but to talk about various things, things I was engaged in, Umkhonto weSizwe activities.
MR LANDMAN: But on the occasion when you had received the instructions with regard to the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bomb and had received the piece of paper indicating the location of the dead letter box, did you then return to South Africa?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did.
MR LANDMAN: Did either General Shoke or General Nyanda know about the fact that you may use other people to assist you in this operation?
MR KGOELE: The method of operation lay solely or entirely upon the discretion of the particular cadre and like Mr Shoke did indicated earlier, we were all commanders. One could at least or recruit people who could help serve in the MK structures.
MR LANDMAN: Did you recruit anybody to assist you in this operation?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did.
MR LANDMAN: Who was that?
MR KGOELE: William Mabele.
MR LANDMAN: What assistance did he give you?
MR KGOELE: William Mabele only assisted me in driving the backup or vehicle that, when I had to go and park the bomb laden car outside the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court.
MR LANDMAN: We'll come to that a little bit later. Did you collect the explosives from the DLB?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did.
MR LANDMAN: The initial explosion which was to create a situation where a cordon would be put around the area, what device did you intend using to cause that explosion?
MR KGOELE: I used a mini limpet mine.
MR LANDMAN: Where did you obtain that mine from?
MR KGOELE: From the DLB that I had retrieved.
MR LANDMAN: After you'd retrieved the explosives from the DLB did anybody assist you in assembling the bomb?
MR KGOELE: No I did it all by myself.
MR LANDMAN: When did William Mabele become aware that he may be involved in an MK operation?
MR KGOELE: I think after hearing the news on the radio or after the Johannesburg Magistrate explosion.
MR LANDMAN: Can you tell the Committee what happened on the morning of the bombing?
MR KGOELE: On the day in question I asked William Mabele to accompany me to town. It was about six, past six in the morning. So I told William Mabele to drive the other car, the straight car which was mine and I drove the bomb laden vehicle to the Magistrate's Court. After parking the car at the identified place I went back to the car and drove William back to Soweto. I then went back ... (intervention)
MR LANDMAN: If I could just interrupt you at this stage Mr Kgoele. Why did you go to the scene so early in the morning?
MR KGOELE: I went there early in order to be able to locate a place where I would be able to park the car. This had stemmed primarily from my previous visit to that area that if people - the cars were always parked around the street there and it was like a free parking so I wanted to go there early to be able to secure a parking place for the car.
MR LANDMAN: You said that William Mabele took you back to Soweto. What happened after that?
MR KGOELE: I went back to my hiding place, changed the clothing that I wore that particular morning, got hold of my Makarov pistol, armed myself with two hand grenades, retrieved the remote control devices and went back to the Magistrate's Court.
MR LANDMAN: What time did you arrive back at the Magistrate's Court?
MR KGOELE: I arrived at the Magistrate's Court at about half past eleven.
MR LANDMAN: Yes, what did you do there?
MR KGOELE: I surveyed the place because I had to make sure that I was not being followed and I wanted to make sure that when I started my mission or my operation that there were not a number of people around that area, so I moved around and at about ten past twelve I placed the mini limpet mind underneath another vehicle and the intention of that was to make that limpet mine act as a decoy.
MR LANDMAN: What time was the mini limpet mine expected to explode?
MR KGOELE: I had a time delaying element within that, it was timed to go off within fifteen minutes.
MR LANDMAN: Did you watch as the mini limpet mine exploded?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did.
MR LANDMAN: Where were you at that stage?
MR KGOELE: Not far from where I had parked the car, there was a dry cleaners and a little kiosk I think about 30/40 metres from where I parked the car, so by that time I was sitting in the cafe and then when the bomb went out I went out and then I saw the police who were cordoning off the area. I went back to where I had parked my car, retrieved the remote control device and when I realised that the police had already cordoned off the are and there were no at least civilian within the cordoned off area, I let go of the device.
MR LANDMAN: By that you mean you detonated the device did you?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did.
MR LANDMAN: Did you notice any policemen within the cordon at that stage?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Should there have been civilians within the cordon, what would you have done?
MR KGOELE: Like the ANC had submitted earlier, in a war situation casualties may be expected, but I would have tried to minimise loss of civilian life. Like I indicated earlier, through past experience, whenever there was an explosion, the police will cordon off the area and the only people who would remain within that cordoned off area would be the police.
MR LANDMAN: Would it then be correct to say that the police behaved as you had expected on that day?
MR KGOELE: Yes they did.
MR LANDMAN: After the main explosion took place, what did you do? Mr Chairman it might be a convenient time to break.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you think three quarters of an hour will be sufficient for you?
MR LANDMAN: It ought to be.
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until ...
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR LANDMAN: After you had detonated the explosion using the remote control device, what did you then do?
MR KGOELE: I left the scene and proceeded down I think Fox or Main Street and then when I reached Boland Bank I concealed the transmitter that I had held in my hand that I used to detonate the bomb.
MR LANDMAN: When you say you concealed it, did you leave it in a flower pot or the like?
MR KGOELE: Yes I left underneath some flowers.
MR LANDMAN: What did you do after that?
MR KGOELE: I went back to my hiding place.
MR LANDMAN: Now if I can refer you to your application for amnesty, and in particular to page 11 of that bundle, ... (end of tape)
MR LANDMAN: ... those are the further particulars that you supplied?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Ja. Under the heading "Johannesburg Magistrate Court Attack" you have under certain sub headings, a) "Planning", then b) you say "The remote control devices were given to me by Kabusa (?). Could you explain that?
MR KGOELE: Yes Kabusa, when I say Kabusa I'm referring to General Siphiwe Nyanda. The remote devices were given to me and the other explosives I had to retrieve from the DLB, only a sketch was supplied to me by Mr Shoke.
MR LANDMAN: The remote control devices given to you by Mr Nyanda, did you actually use them at the end of the day in this attack?
MR KGOELE: No the initial devices given to me were not used because I realised when testing them that I think they were mixed so I had to go back to Swaziland and exchange them with one that I got from Mr Shoke.
MR LANDMAN: When carrying out the attack upon the policemen at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court were you acting in your capacity as a member of MK?
MR KGOELE: Yes I was.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I just confirm again that the application itself has been handed up to the Committee and forms part of the bundle. It has also been signed under oath by the present applicant. That then is the evidence in chief.
MR WAGNER: Thank you Mr Chairman. On the last point raised by Mr Landman, the application was not signed under oath.
MR LANDMAN: Yes it has been pointed out to me, that is correct, I was looking at Mr Shoke's application. If I might then just, at this stage, ask Mr Kgoele to look at the application which begins on page 3 of the bundle to page 9. Do you confirm the contents of that application?
MR KGOELE: Yes I do.
MR LANDMAN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN
ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I just possibly inform the Committee that that fact of non attestation had been brought to or came to our attention earlier on in the preparation and there is no attested form of Mr Kgoele in the original file in Cape Town. We were unable to find an attested copy of the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Was his attention drawn to this as is the practice as I understand it of the Amnesty Committee?
ADV PRIOR: I was unable to find correspondence to that effect.
CHAIRPERSON: Is the normal practice or was the normal practice was it not that were forms were not attested, the attention of the applicant was drawn to it and it was remedied?
ADV PRIOR: I understand that that was followed in a number of cases, yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR WAGNER: Can you just help me with the pronunciation of your name, is it Kgoele. Is that the correct, I heard Mr Prior referring to it as Kgoele, is that that correct pronunciation?
MR KGOELE: No it is not.
MR WAGNER: Can you please help me?
MR KGOELE: Kgoele.
MR WAGNER: Okay Mr Kgoele forgive me then if I err in this respect at times. Can I ask you are you also at present a member of the National Defence Force?
MR KGOELE: No.
MR WAGNER: What position do you hold at present?
MR KGOELE: It is difficult for me to divulge the position I hold but I'm working under the Inter-corruption Unit of Johannesburg (indistinct).
MR WAGNER: And I see on page 11 of your application you refer to William Mabele as Sergeant Mabele, is he a member of the Defence Force or the police or don't you know?
MR KGOELE: NO he's a member of the South African National Defence Force.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele and once again my questions will be concerning the period May 1987, at the time of this incident so if I don't repeat myself every time, please keep in mind that I'm referring to that period, May 1987, okay? Were you at this time also regarded as a member of what is called the Transvaal Machinery?
MR KGOELE: I would say yes but like Mr Shoke indicated, we had different structures within Umkhonto weSizwe and each with a different mission, so I would say yes I was a member but falling directly under General Nyanda.
MR WAGNER: Now we have heard or I have heard in a previous hearing of an MK unit called Special Operations. Were you and your unit working parallel to what is called Special Operations?
MR KGOELE: It will be difficult for me again to explain because like I say we are not supposed to know about the others' operations so my operations was mine, what the others did so I wouldn't know, I wouldn't say I was part of any one.
MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this question is that I heard testimony in a previous matter that this unit called Special Operations, they were given all the big, if I may call it the spectacular, the controversial operations to conduct and it is against that that I would like to ask you do you know why you and your unit were tasked for this very big operation?
MR KGOELE: I should think that General Nyanda might have realised my potential so independently he might have taken that decision to assign me that task.
MR WAGNER: Can I take it from your answer that you were an experienced explosive operator and that therefore you could be entrusted with this very big and I would say difficult operation?
MR KGOELE: I wouldn't say experienced, I would say he realised my potential. There were various cadres who would have performed better than I, but on this particular case they might have been involved on other missions, so this mission here perhaps General Kabusa saw something in me and chose me to do it.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele can you tell this Committee what your experience was at the time concerning explosives and explosions?
MR KGOELE: My experience varied because one was not trained on one particular aspect. My training or our training as MK cadres was broad. We were trained politically, trained in the usage of arms, rifles and explosives, what we termed to as military engineering so it was general training, no that one was an expert in anything.
MR WAGNER: Yes but what I would like to know, this training you received was it practical, did you have practical experience of working with explosives, of detonating explosives and so forth. Was that part of your experience at the time?
MR KGOELE: No.
MR WAGNER: Can I take it then that this was the first time in your life that you actually detonated an explosive device?
MR KGOELE: No.
MR WAGNER: Well what's the answer then?
MR KGOELE: It was not the first time, I had detonated some explosives somewhere but not of this magnitude.
MR WAGNER: Maybe I can ask you this, is that part of some other amnesty applications of yours and that I should therefore not question you in this regard?
MR KGOELE: I think so.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele the final instruction to go to Johannesburg and cause this explosion in the way it happened, was that instruction from General Nyanda only?
MR KGOELE: Yes because as it was indicated earlier, there is only one main command so I received instructions from General Nyanda. Mr Shoke might have helped facilitate with the explosives, what we termed ordinance or logistics at the time and maybe made an input during the, but it is the brainchild of General Nyanda.
MR WAGNER: Now Mr Kgoele you also testified that you as the operative, if I may call it that, you had a discretion to some extent as to how the operation should be carried out. Do you remember that?
MR KGOELE: I don't remember saying that but the briefings that we had we interacted and General Nyanda never sort of imposed himself. We discussed go out there, survey the area come back and tell me, so we discussed and I felt it was opportunity which was right to do so but an order is an order.
MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking you this is in the final execution of the operation, what was left to your own discretion and what was the specific instruction of General Nyanda?
MR KGOELE: The instructions were for me to go out there, set the decoy bomb and then ultimately trigger the remote control bomb. Then after that I had to go and report back to Swaziland.
MR WAGNER: So am I right in saying then that your discretion would then be aspects like exactly where the car had to be parked and exactly where you had to stand when detonating the device and so forth?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: Did General Nyanda instruct you regarding the amount of explosives to be used for instance?
MR KGOELE: No he never made mention of the explosive to me. All I can say is after getting the sketch from Mr Shoke I used all that I retrieved from the DLB, I think those materials precisely meant for this particular operation.
MR WAGNER: And can you tell this Committee what was the amount of explosives used specifically in the big explosion if I may call it that, the second explosion?
MR KGOELE: I would say it was around about 100 kgs.
MR WAGNER: Are you sure of this fact, 100 kilogram, more or less?
MR KGOELE: I am not certain because I didn't have to weight them, I'm just making an approximation by the weight of the things that I had that it could have been approximately around + 100 kgs.
MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this is I'm definitely not an explosives expert, but we've heard evidence in previous matters and in terms of that, 100 kilograms of explosives that is a huge bomb, if I may call it that.
MR KGOELE: Well that's your interpretation. Like I'm saying I didn't weigh them so I'm just making a - it could be a poor judgement, could have been less than that.
MR WAGNER: Now can you tell us very briefly when you fetched these explosives from the DLB, what did you have to do to convert this, if I, to convert this into a bomb?
MR KGOELE: Okay, I think I must put things into proper context. These explosives were already made. All I had to do was to put in the detonators, that's all, the explosives were there.
MR WAGNER: And I assume you had to put in a certain triggering device as well or a time device or am I wrong?
MR KGOELE: On the limpet mine yes. With the other explosives I depended entirely upon the remote control device.
MR WAGNER: Now please help me Mr Kgoele and I'm referring now to the big bomb if I - you're with me, the big bomb. When you parked our car outside the Magistrate's Court early in the morning - maybe I should first ask you, can you remember at what time did you park your car there?
MR KGOELE: Past six, somewhere there, past six to seven because it was early I had to find parking space as I indicated earlier.
MR WAGNER: So when you parked this car, say between six and seven in the morning, was this bomb in the car, was it already primed - is that the word you people use - was it already primed, ready to explode?
MR KGOELE: No not yet.
MR WAGNER: What was still required to cause the explosion, apart from the triggering of the remote control the, what else was still required and I'm referring now to the moment when you parked your car between six and seven in the morning outside the Court?
MR KGOELE: What was required of me was just to install a battery in when I came back.
MR WAGNER: So are you saying that you parked your car there in the morning, you went back to Soweto, at a later stage you came back and you had to go to this car again and to do something to activate the bomb by putting in a battery or something. Is that what you're saying?
MR KGOELE: Yes, that battery controls the time mechanism which was installed within the explosives and that time mechanism was further activated by the remote control device.
MR WAGNER: Was this done so that the bomb could not be detonated in the meantime, during the course of the morning by some accident, radio frequency or something, is that what you're saying?
MR KGOELE: Yes it is, without the battery it's just as dead as anything.
MR WAGNER: I'm quite relieved to hear this because I was under the impression that there was this very very dangerous sort of activated bomb standing there for six and a half hours in the street. Is that not the position?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: Your accomplice Mr Mabele, was he not informed at all beforehand what this whole coming to town and driving back to Soweto early in the morning was all about?
MR KGOELE: No he was never informed, but as a human being he might have had his own suspicions, why then he was a supporter of Umkhonto weSizwe.
MR WAGNER: Maybe you can tell the Committee this, where exactly, were did you construct this bomb because 100 kilograms, this is, this must have been huge. Was that in your own house or in your garage or where did you do all this?
MR KGOELE: In my own hideout.
MR WAGNER: And I assume then you alone and you had no one to help you there?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: Did Mr Mabele at any stage see the explosives?
MR KGOELE: Let me correct you, it's not Mabene it's Mabele. He saw what was in the boot of the car but I don't think by that time he could explain what it was.
MR WAGNER: This specific car with the big bomb, whose care was this?
MR KGOELE: As was MK practice, we used to purchase this so-called "hot" cars from the (indistinct) people who stole them for use in such operations so I had previously purchased that car and concealed it in my hiding place and then the day I had to do what was required of me.
MR WAGNER: So this was a stolen car?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: The specific time of the explosion, I think it was, both explosions were round about twelve thirty, round about midday according to the documentation. I think you agree to that?
MR KGOELE: Yes I do.
MR WAGNER: What was the reason or what was the motivation that that was the correct time for the explosion?
MR KGOELE: It was not the reason, the purpose was that, the timing was that during that time a lot of people are already at work and the Court will be in session by that time and there will only be fewer people moving around and the exact location, after our own surveillance was that there was a lot of traffic except the police who came into the Court from Johannesburg, John Vorster Square by then, so the time was to lure the police who came from John Vorster Square.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele was the idea to kill as many policemen as possible?
MR KGOELE: By then yes.
MR WAGNER: And that is regardless of race or gender or type of work they've been doing, merely being a policeman they should be killed?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: In fact I can remember seeing a video where you gave an interview, I don't know who the people are where you actually made statements to this effect that you would have been more happy man had there been killed a hundred or so policemen, I can't remember the exact word but words to that effect?
MR KGOELE: Yes I did say.
MR WAGNER: Does that mean that you regard this operation as a failure?
MR KGOELE: Not that I regard it as a failure. When I uttered those words I spoke from the perspective of a Black man who had no vote then in South Africa. I spoke on a perspective or from a point of view of a man who had endured all the sufferings in Soweto. That I had to skip this country and go for training, it was not due to a reason of my own making, it was because of the apartheid policy and all the experience that one had experienced from 1976 and lastly a thing that became a turning point in my life, when we were shot at burying the late Tshasivane (?) at a cemetery in Doornkop. So those are incidents that may have compelled me to utter those words.
MR WAGNER: Sorry did I get it right, were you shot at and I assume then by the police, and were you hit in the process?
MR KGOELE: No I was not hit but a lot of people died that day. We were in a funeral, conducting a peaceful funeral and the police came in and shot at us.
DR TSOTSI: Which year was this - sorry Mr Wagner - which years was this?
MR KGOELE: If I remember vividly it was when we were burying Mr Tshasivane, 1978 I think (indistinct) somewhere.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele - do I pronounce it correct?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: Do you regard yourself as a military man?
MR KGOELE: No I'm not a military man. To become militant was through circumstances. I'm an ordinary South African, a human being just like everybody, anyone else.
MR WAGNER: Because I put it to you that to attack your enemy in the way that you did on this specific day, is an act of cowardice and nothing more?
MR KGOELE: I appreciate that very much and that what I term guerrilla warfare, because we were not a conventional army, we did not (indistinct) within which to fight so we had to conduct our attacks in that fashion.
MR WAGNER: Does your answer mean that in a guerrilla war a person who regards himself as a guerrilla, he must only attack defenceless people who can't defend themselves. Is that your answer?
MR KGOELE: I think in this case the South African Police were armed 24 hours a day so I don't think they were defenceless.
MR WAGNER: Please Mr Kgoele do you suggest that these policemen who were brutally killed on this day, they were able to defend themselves against the explosion. Is that what you're saying?
MR KGOELE: Well in guerrilla warfare it's not a question of ready or not ready, it's an ambush so an ambush never announces itself or an ambusher so I take you by surprise. So if I win so be it.
MR WAGNER: That's what I actually meant by my question so maybe I should repeat myself. In a guerrilla war all the guerrillas do is they attack people who can't fight back, put it that way?
CHAIRPERSON: It's not what he says, you attack them when they cannot fight back, not people who can't fight back. You ambush them, you take them by surprise when they're looking the other way. But they're not people who can't fight back, they're armed men. If you study any guerrilla war Mr Wagner you will see numerous attacks on armed men from ambushes, from surprises.
MR WAGNER: I'm sorry Chairman maybe my use of the English language was inadequate, what I was trying to convey is that you attack someone who can't fight back at that moment in time.
MR KGOELE: If I had the means to announce myself that time I would have, but I don't think I would be standing in front of you today if I did that so I had to surprise them like they did when they surprised us (indistinct).
MR WAGNER: Sorry I didn't get the last part, what was the last part of your response?
MR KGOELE: When they attacked us in Maseru and Madola they never announced themselves, they took us by surprise in the middle of the night.
MR WAGNER: Did I understand you correctly that the smaller mine, the limpet mine was only placed by you later that morning, in fact when you came back from Soweto and not early in the morning when you left your parked car there?
MR KGOELE: Yes that's what I mean.
MR WAGNER: Weren't you scared that someone may see you, I assume it was broad daylight. So you walk with this mine in your hands and you put it down next to or under a car there in daylight. Weren't you scared that you could have been detected?
MR KGOELE: At least if I was going to be detected it would have saved the triggering of the major explosion, but because I was armed to the teeth I think I would have taken some casualties.
MR WAGNER: Is that why you took your pistol and hand grenades with you?
MR KGOELE: That is so.
MR WAGNER: Was that the only reason why you took it with you, to fight back should you be detected and as you've just said to take some casualties with you?
MR KGOELE: Here we were in a state of war or undeterred war so my placing a bomb there did not mean that I was only going target the enemy via a bomb only. If they could present themselves and I had an opportunity to use my pistol I would have done it.
MR WAGNER: I'm not sure Mr Kgoele if I understand you now. What was the idea of the pistol, what did you intend doing?
MR KGOELE: I intended shooting anyone or any policeman who might have detected me or confronted me.
MR WAGNER: When you stood watching after the first small bomb, you watched the area, if I heard you correctly you saw police approach, cordon off the area, were you sure that it was only police within that area and no private civilians?
MR KGOELE: In any war situation we do expect casualties. My main target there was to, was aimed solely or entirely at the police. If by any chance there were have been any civilians, well it was most unfortunate.
MR WAGNER: What would you have done had there been for instance medical personnel in that area busy with perhaps casualties - I know this is somewhat hypothetical, but what would you approach have been then?
MR KGOELE: Why I stood there when the first bomb went off was to guard against those things so when I stood there I had a view of all the place and all the happenings down there so I observed everybody down there so if I could have seen medical personnel, well because a mission is a mission and I had an objective to achieve.
MR WAGNER: Sorry I interrupted you, I didn't get the last part?
MR KGOELE: I wanted to say it would have been most unfortunate because I had a mission to accomplish.
MR WAGNER: And the mission being to kill as many policemen as possible?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: You heard the statement I put to the previous applicant that the son of my client, Mrs Wilkens, was working in the court building as a Court Orderly and he was in the process doing an administrative functions, nothing more. Does that have any influence on you approach to this whole operation?
MR KGOELE: To us a police was a police and a police so whether he was working as a Court Orderly or at a mortuary, because he was in uniform and enforcing apartheid laws upon the Blacks of South Africa, I wouldn't have any choice but to trigger the bomb.
MR WAGNER: And is your answer the same concerning Black policemen?
MR KGOELE: In fact I would say the ANC never fought a racist war because if I remember my (indistinct) tell me that an enemy could take any colour so what we were fighting here was injustice so anybody who was seen to be enforcing unjust laws upon the Black majority were regarded as an enemy, be he Black, White, Yellow, Green or whatever.
MR WAGNER: The fact that the explosion took place at the Magistrate's Court building, what was the significance of that to you?
MR KGOELE: The significance was that at least we did send a message to the South African regime that time that they also could be killed.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele are you proud of this act of yours?
MR KGOELE: If we start (indistinct) being proud, I don't think there's any sane person who could ever be proud about war because war can take anyone. I would have died that particular day and I won't be here to be facing this so anything could have happened so I can't say I was proud. I was merely sending a message to the South African regime.
MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this is, although it's not evidence before this Commission I refer you to the video that I saw and I got the distinct impression that you were boasting, you regarded yourself as a hero for committing this atrocious act.
MR KGOELE: You know circumstances sometimes can determine a man's attitude. When that documentary was made one had a different view of South Africa and why I said that is because of the arrogance shown to me by some of the applicants today. As a human being my patience are not endless.
MR WAGNER: Sorry Mr Kgoele I'm not sure that I'm with you. The arrogance shown to you by some of the applicants. I'm not sure what you're referring to.
MR KGOELE: I'm sorry I wanted to say the families of the victims, because the people who made the documentary wanted us to meet so that I should extend a hand of friendship and tell them and try to reconcile with them so they refused. Even one of them I think, the father of the person you are defending today, he's on record as saying on that very same documentary that he wanted me for a year so that I could feel the pains that he felt. So based on that, as I've indicated to you, no man's patience is endless. We tolerated this but if somebody does not want to reconcile, so I'm not a Messiah.
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele we're somewhat straying from the real issues but I put it to you that that can hardly be seen as arrogance from this victim whose son died, the answer that you've now given. I can't see in any way how ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: As you've said, we're straying from the scene, is it of any relevance?
MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele the remote control radio, why did you leave it at the scene?
MR KGOELE: I didn't want to carry it around, it was too heavy for me because I had a pistol and some hand grenades with me.
MR WAGNER: But you had transport there I assume or weren't your car in the vicinity?
MR KGOELE: I was a guerrilla so I had to change my ways. That I had a car it was not necessarily meant that I should use it because maybe somebody might have spotted me in that car, so I had to change.
MR WAGNER: After the explosion, did you remain in South Africa or did you return to Swaziland to report back?
MR KGOELE: I returned to Swaziland.
MR WAGNER: Was that immediately afterwards or did you stay for some time?
MR KGOELE: No I stayed for some time.
MR WAGNER: And during that time did you spend time with Mr Mabele and did you the two of you discuss the operation that you've just committed?
MR KGOELE: It seems that by then Mr Mabele was aware of the operation, I had to make him skip the country.
MR WAGNER: So did he skip the country immediately but you remained?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR WAGNER: And to whom did you report back in Swaziland at the time when you did so?
MR KGOELE: General Nyanda.
MR WAGNER: And what was his reaction?
MR KGOELE: No it was just a normal report back. We were in a war situation so I reported that I've accomplished my mission, that's all.
MR WAGNER: And did he congratulate you on this performance?
MR KGOELE: We were not in the struggle to receive congratulations, because like I indicated earlier, I would have died. You don't go into a struggle and think and hope that you'll attack others and you in turn never be attacked.
MR WAGNER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGNER
ADV PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Kgoele in preparing for your evidence today you were shown the bundles that were prepared, the documents that were prepared, the statements including those photographs of Fox Street and the Magistrates Court. In other words have you seen ... (intervention)
MR LANDMAN: (Inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. From pages 117 to 138, Mr Chairman that is of the supplementary documents, that is the second - we can call it the second bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Of which I have a copy but my two Committee members do not as yet.
ADV PRIOR: ... (Inaudible) your question Mr Chairman, we'll have those made available. I just need to establish, you've seen the photographs and the documents put up in this bundle of documents?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: And it's been explained to you that various people were injured other than police personnel?
MR KGOELE: No it was not explained to me, all I know is that, from what I could gather from the news that policemen were injured and some died.
ADV PRIOR: According to the lists that appears or a key that appears at page 50, one lady, Colchetty, an Indian lady was injured and there was a lady Mashode Magubane was injured, just to name two. What I'm, what the question really is driving at Mr Kgoele do you accept that as a result of the bomb that people that are listed in this document were injured and/or suffered damages in respect of their property. Do you accept that?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: Am I correct in suggesting that the bomb in that vehicle went off in Fox Street, that is the Fox Street entrance to or the Fox Street side of the Magistrate's Court building?
MR KGOELE: No it's not in Fox Street. I know Fox Street runs from east to west.
CHAIRPERSON: ... (Inaudible) photograph that appears at 117, page 117, photograph 2 and if you turn the page 118, photograph 4 and the photograph that appears at page 123, that is photograph 14 as marked on that photo, that shows where the bomb exploded, is that correct?
MR KGOELE: Yes on page 123?
ADV PRIOR: What street is that, could you just tell us the name of the street. Do you know?
MR KGOELE: I don't know the name of the street but it's not Fox Street.
ADV PRIOR: Alright. And if you look at page 123 we see the entrance to the Court there, is that no the main entrance, is that the rear entrance to the Court?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: ... (Inaudible - beginning of tape) area surrounding the position where you detonated the bomb. In so far as, there seems to be many vehicle parked there?
MR KGOELE: Yes I know there was a car park around there, they are still there today.
ADV PRIOR: And people ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Would people be there parking when they go to work in the morning and collecting their cars when they left in the afternoon?
MR KGOELE: Yes Mr Chairman.
ADV PRIOR: As would people be entering or leaving the Court premises?
MR KGOELE: Repeat your question.
ADV PRIOR: As would people who had business at the Magistrate's Court, they would park in that area and use that entrance if that was the entrance they decided to enter the building by?
MR KGOELE: I should think so.
ADV PRIOR: The vehicle in which the bomb was planted, was this a Golf, a Volkswagen Golf?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: I simply tie that up to page 33 of the same bundle, it seemed to be the vehicle of Mr Kinzey, whose vehicle was reported missing on the 17th of May of that year. And just one last aspect, you - as I understand your evidence you were acting under orders, is that correct?
MR KGOELE: (Inaudible).
ADV PRIOR: Were you acting under orders?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: What would have occurred, what do you think would have happened if you disobeyed those orders?
MR KGOELE: It was unlike for me to disobey the orders.
ADV PRIOR: I didn't catch it, it was unlike you?
MR KGOELE: (Inaudible).
ADV PRIOR: If you had decided not to carry out those orders and kill policemen there what would have happened to you, would you have been reprimanded, would there have been some punishment?
MR KGOELE: I'm having a problem with the hearing, I think there's something wrong with the lines.
ADV PRIOR: Could the witness be given another headset please?
MR KGOELE: You may repeat your question.
ADV PRIOR: Yes, can you hear me now?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: All I want to know, you were carrying out orders, you were a member of the MK structure, you were answerable to, we've heard General Shoke and General Nyanda. Were you under some compulsion to carry out orders within your military set-up? My question is what would have happened if you didn't carry out the orders?
MR KGOELE: The problem is with your question is that we entered Umkhonto weSizwe voluntarily because of the circumstances of (indistinct) so it was unlikely for me to disobey the orders so I wouldn't have disobeyed the orders.
ADV PRIOR: Right let me ask you more generally. Was there any process within the MK structure for people who disobeyed orders?
MR KGOELE: Yes there was.
ADV PRIOR: What was that, that's what I'm getting at. Please tell us?
MR KGOELE: What's the relevance of this Mr Prior, there has been no suggestion that he was under any compulsion.
MR SANDI: And he didn't disobey those orders anyway Mr Prior.
ADV PRIOR: In your application at page 6 of the bundle, you indicate that the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court was a justified target because the institution was perceived and seen as one that enforced the laws of apartheid or the apartheid laws. Is that correct?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
ADV PRIOR: So if I understand your motivation, primarily it wasn't only just to kill policemen but it was also to cause possible damage towards that institution. In other words it wasn't only aimed at policemen, it was aimed at the Magistrate's Court or the judicial system operable at the Magistrate's Court at that time?
MR KGOELE: Cognisance was taken of the fact that as a result of the explosion, damage might be caused to the Magistrate's Court and on that basis that's why I say that.
ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman, sorry may I interrupt. Regarding the question of Mr Prior on the disobedience and perhaps in fairness to this witness you can look at the document of the ANC of August 1996 on page 87, in the right-hand column at the bottom, there's reference to this aspect.
CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).
MR WAGNER: August 1996, I think it's called the first submission, page 87 right-hand column at the bottom. Sorry Mr Chairman Mr Prior has asked me to read it.
CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).
MR WAGNER: Ja it's not, this is not backing my case but it says here: "Outright disobedience and failure to obey an order ...", this is now part of the MK Code of Conduct, "Outright disobedience and failure to obey an order promptly may have serious consequences. A soldier who thinks that he has been given a wrong order must obey it first and if need be complain afterwards to his commander".
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman before I ask any questions, can I put on record that the street or road in which the explosion occurred was Bezuidenhout Road, which is on the western side of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court. Mr Kgoele did you know at the time you decided to park the car outside the Magistrate's Court that a major police station, John Vorster Square, was about two blocks away?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: From your observations of people parking their cars in the parking area close to the scene of the explosion, did you get the impression that these people were shoppers who would return to their vehicle after a short period of time or was it people who had parked their vehicles there for the day?
MR KGOELE: My impression was that it was, the people had parked vehicles there for the day.
MR LANDMAN: In regard to people who may have left the Magistrate's Court through the back entrance at about the time the first explosion occurred, what did you expect those people to do when the mini limpet mine went off?
MR KGOELE: I had expected that the police would be the first people to come in and cordon off the area and the people who were leaving would run away.
MR LANDMAN: Then just lastly in regard to Mr Mabele, why did you ensure that he left the country after the explosion?
MR KGOELE: I feared for him, he was still young and I knew by then if he was known to have - the police would have discovered that he had supported that I'm, he might not be here today.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there also a danger if the police arrested him that he would disclose your identity and details about you?
MR KGOELE: Yes.
MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele before the explosion occurred that day, did Mr Mabele know what you were going to do?
MR KGOELE: No he didn't know anything.
MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN
DR TSOTSI: (Indistinct) you parked a stolen car laden with a bomb next to the Magistrate's Court which was crawling, some police crawling all around the place, wasn't that amateurish?
MR KGOELE: By then the police didn't know that the car had bombs in it.
DR TSOTSI: This was a stolen car, weren't they looking for stolen cars?
MR KGOELE: You know we had studied the police modus operandi. They only looked for a stolen car in Soweto, not in town.
WITNESS EXCUSED
