Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MS PATEL: I thank you Chairperson.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Honourable Chair. May I beg leave to call as a witness on behalf of the objectors, Mr Jimmy Stephens. I have prepared a bundle of - that contains the statements of the witnesses which we intend leading on behalf of the objectors and some other documents which we would like to refer to for purposes of argument. May I beg leave to hand this up to the honourable Committee. It has got an index and it's paginated for purposes of reference Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: I would think so Mr Chair. Unfortunately I don't know where we've come to.

CHAIRPERSON: Provisionally we'll mark this as Exhibit E. I'm advised that this will be E, but if it transpires that we will have to change it then we will do that.

MR DORFLING: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate before we commence with this witness, the witness has indicated to me that he is employed with a specific business concern, he does not wish the specific concern's identity to be disclosed for obvious reasons. May I beg leave for that not to be disclosed for record purposes?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) unless something material turns on it.

MR DORFLING: I don't believe so. I have canvassed that with the representatives for the applicants, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty with that.

MR STEPHENS: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, I would just like to indicate to the witness that the microphone in front of you, Mr Stephens, should be activated by yourself. If you speak, just press the red button. Once you've finished, just press the grey button for it to be switched off.

Mr Stephens, on the 28th of March 1994 you were the Manager of a business concern situated at the corners of King George and Plein Streets, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Your business was actually situated right at the corner of those two streets, and the windows had a view overlooking King George Street in a northerly direction, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What time did you arrive at work that morning?

MR STEPHENS: It must have been about 08H00, roundabout there.

MR DORFLING: Just for purposes of background, prior to that day, had you ever seen marches of Zulu people gathering in and around the centre of Johannesburg?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I have.

MR DORFLING: How many times had you experienced it before that day?

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm not exactly sure, but marches used to happen on a continuous basis in the Johannesburg area, but IFP marches, I can't recall exactly how many.

MR DORFLING: Can you please relate to the Committee what you saw on the day of the 28th of March 1994? Can we take it from the time you started, and I would just like you to refer with specific reference to the marchers that you saw, what were your experiences that day?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, there were previous marches in the morning. There was - I remember one specific one which was a fairly small march, where they actually walked down Plein Street in a easterly direction past the Shell House entrance. There was a small group of Inkatha marchers, they were escorted by Police. There were ANC - well I take it that they were ANC people because they had guns, they were waving them at the marchers that walked past. There was one ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you there. Then you say you take it that they were ANC people, what brought you under that impression?

MR STEPHENS: Because earlier on they were all gathered outside the ANC - outside Shell House entrance, and they were chatting with one another. When the Inkatha marchers came past, they walked up to the side of the road to where they were - almost like approached them, and anyway, they were waving their arms around as well as the one or two guys that waved hand-pistols. And then the one - there was one biggish Inkatha guy, he looked like he was a steward or one of the guys that kept them in control or so, he actually pointed to the Policemen, saying to them that there were guys, that obviously were antagonising them - well it looked that way, it was from a distance, but he pointed it out to him.

MR DORFLING: And this big gentleman you're referring to, was he amongst a specific group in particular?

MR STEPHENS: Well he was part of the Inkatha march.

MR DORFLING: And after that had been pointed out to the Police, what transpired then?

MR STEPHENS: Well nothing much, the guys moved back a little bit and the march just continued on peacefully with no other incidents happening.

MR DORFLING: Can we just get the direction in which that marchers were moving?

MR STEPHENS: The march went along Plein Street from a westerly to an easterly direction.

MR DORFLING: At what time did this approximately take place?

MR STEPHENS: It could have been between 09H00 and 10H00, somewhere around there.

MR DORFLING: So these marchers passed in your field of view from, as you're standing in your business, from your left to your right. Is that right?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct, ja. Within - it's about 20/30 metres, it's right in front of the shop.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened after that?

MR STEPHENS: Well then they marched off. During the day there was - well during the rest of the time before the main march there were Inkatha guys walking around with their weapons, one or two - mostly one at a time, and they were all walking up towards Noord Street in that direction, and some were going towards the ...(indistinct), so I'm not sure if they knew exactly where to meet, but they were all moving up in a northerly direction.

MR DORFLING: You say they had their weapons, what do you mean with "they had their weapons"?

MR STEPHENS: Knobkierries and sticks, that's the main thing that I saw.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any firearms amongst these people?

MR STEPHENS: No not myself personally.

MR DORFLING: Yes you may continue, what happened after that? MR STEPHENS: Well then - I think it before 12 some time, I'm not sure exactly of the time, - well it was probably about 11, somewhere around there that I actually saw all these guards that were previously part of the Shell House incident. They were just gathering outside the entrance itself. And then afterwards I saw the - when the crowd really started building up at Noord Street there, then I saw this one ANC guard come out with a - which I thought was an AK47, sit next to a pillar and he kneeled down, and he was aiming towards them and ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can we just take it slowly Mr Stephens. Where did this gentleman come from, where did you see him for the first time?

MR STEPHENS: Well I was looking at the marchers itself, and I just happened to look over towards the ANC headquarters at the entrance of Shell House, and I saw the guy coming down with the rifle - well say in the last 5 or 10 metres I just saw him come with the rifle, and then he ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: And where did he position himself?

MR STEPHENS: It was - there's two pillars on the side - on the easterly side of King George Street, on the corner of Plein, and he just - first of all he stood there, and when the marchers ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Sorry, is that the corners of King George and Plein?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: On the easterly side of the King George Street of the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, on the Shell House side.

MR DORFLING: Next to the Shell House pillars, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. And anyway, then he knelt down as if he was gonna shoot at them ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Okay, can we just concentrate on the marchers that you saw at that point in time, where were they at that point in time?

MR STEPHENS: I think they were between Noord and De Villiers - approaching De Villiers Street, in the King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: From a northerly to a southerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Coming in a southerly direction, that's correct. And then - well anyway, as they came up to De Villiers in King George Street, they slowly moved over De Villiers towards - well still in King George, coming towards - in a southerly direction towards Plein Street, that's when this guard ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you at this point in time again. What exactly did - was the crowd doing at that stage? What motions - if you compare it to your normal experience of Zulu marches, how would you compare the actions of the crowd as opposed to normal marches at point in time?

MR STEPHENS: Well they were jumping up and down and there was a - you could hear this "woe-woe" noise, obviously chanting, and that was about all that I could see from that distance anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did anything other than - anything other happen than what would happen in a normal march?

MR STEPHENS: At that time it didn't look any different to any other march, to me anyway, except it was a bigger than previous other marches that I'd seen. That was the only difference.

MR DORFLING: Previously that morning?

MR STEPHENS: Previously that morning, and on other occasions.

MR DORFLING: If you would be kind enough to describe the way in which the crowd was moving forward, were they running forward, were they walking forward, what did they do?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say more moving forward, it's almost when they sort of half run on the spot, but sort of move forward at the same time. But not fast, it was a slow movement forward, almost like a walking pace.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR STEPHENS: Well as they sort of crossed De Villiers Street, this ANC security guard opened up fire. That's all I saw, and I never heard any previous shots, I just saw him shoot.

MR DORFLING: Is that the gentleman you were referring to that you earlier saw with the - what you believed to be an AK47?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, it was the same guy that was kneeling down.

MR DORFLING: If you say he opened fire, do you know the difference between automatic fire and single-shot fire?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, I do. It was automatic fire, short bursts.

MR DORFLING: What was the crowd's reaction to this fire?

MR STEPHENS: Oh, they just dispersed with quite a few guys trying to hide behind - there was a vehicle in King George Street, on the corner - well on the corner of De Villiers, but in the southerly side of De Villiers in King George, and they were all trying to hide behind this car. Other guys just ran down De Villiers in all directions, and up Noord as well. They just dispersed within a couple of seconds.

MR DORFLING: How far had the marchers progressed into the block between De Villiers and Plein Street in King George Street by the time the shooting started?

MR STEPHENS: They'd basically just entered it, and then the shooting started and then whatever guys could probably ran in 5 to 10 metres inside - you know, looking for cover, and the rest of the guys ran down the side of De Villiers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) again, all ran for cover, the people that were being shot at?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, the people who were being shot at by this guard, or the guard that I could see shooting. They ran for cover, there were cars in front. In other words if this is De Villiers and if this is King George - as they came into King George just crossing De Villiers Road, there was a car parked over here which was about 5 metres, maybe 10 metres inside in King George, they ran to duck behind - because the firing was coming from that direction, and the other people ran down De Villiers. So it was basically as they crossed De Villiers that the security guard opened up fire.

MR DORFLING: You mentioned the gentleman shooting in short bursts of automatic fire. At the time when the marchers started dispersing, was there still some fire emanating from the firearm of this guard you saw?

MR STEPHENS: Sorry, just say that again.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the marchers started dispersing, when they started running away, was the security guard with the rifle you saw firing on automatic firing, was he still continuing or had his fire stopped at that time?

MR STEPHENS: He was still shooting an automatic in short bursts. The people had basically - well most of them had -there was a big gap, and everybody else was hiding behind the car, and he was still shooting on automatic at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you may continue Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Well then what happened was - well I also saw by that stage there was quite a few other guards standing around the guard himself with this Policeman that was standing next to him as well, and by then most of the people had dispersed and there was only people behind the car trying to hide away, and what happened was, he re-loaded and he was busy shooting on single-fire.

MR DORFLING: Are you referring to the same gentleman that was using the automatic fire earlier?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. Because he actually stopped, and I actually ran out the shop and then I actually - because I was trying to get the attention of the Policemen to tell them to stop shooting, because you know, there was basically people who were just like trying to take cover, and that's when another gentleman came across in a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Sorry, could you just repeat that, when another gentleman?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, he ran across the road shooting with a 9mm, and that's when I ran back inside, and I actually saw him standing around the side because he - obviously he couldn't shoot them properly from the angle that he was at, he tried to get a better angle.

MR DORFLING: Can we just try and position this second gentleman you're talking about? What firearm did he have?

MR STEPHENS: Well it was a handgun, it could have been a 9mm, I'm not sure, but it was a handgun.

MR DORFLING: From which direction did he come?

MR STEPHENS: He came from an easterly direction, he ran in a westerly direction down Plein Street, and he was looking straight on King George down the walkway, the pathway, so he could get a better angle at the people that were being shot at.

MR DORFLING: Was he positioned on one of the two pavements of King George Street, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: Yes he was, he was positioned on the westerly side of King George Street. He was there only for a second or two. As soon as he had shot his loads, he had run back. By that stage I was back inside the shop.

MR DORFLING: So he was positioned on the westerly pavement of King George Street, he was shooting in a northerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR DORFLING: And can you just repeat, I'm not sure I understood you correctly, he actually crossed King George Street from the easterly to the westerly side?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Why did he do that?

MR STEPHENS: To get a better shot, or a better angle at the Inkatha marchers that were all trying to hide behind the vehicle. Because obviously from the easterly side of corner Plein and King George, his view was obstructed by the car that they were trying to hide behind.

MR DORFLING: And can you give an indication of the number of shots this gentleman fired?

MR STEPHENS: No, there was quite a few, but I couldn't tell you how many. More than five or six.

MR DORFLING: When was the last time you observed the gentleman with the automatic rifle firing?

MR STEPHENS: Well he was the last person to stop firing. I can't exactly say when the last time I saw him. When he was picking up his bullets and then he went back into the ANC building, that's the last time I saw him. Picking up bullets, picking up the cartridges that the empty, empty cartridges, and there was somebody else helping him pick them up as well.

MR DORFLING: By that time the fire from the gentleman with the handgun had ceased, is that right?

MR STEPHENS: Yes. Like I said, the guy with the AK or the assault rifle, he was the last guy to shoot, that I noticed shooting anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did you look at where these people went to after the shooting ceased?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically all went back towards the entrance of Shell House, and some of them actually stayed around there as well. I can't say how many went inside and how many stayed behind, but they were in that vicinity. But the guy with the - the security guard that had the rifle, I saw him go back inside Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Did you actually see him entering the building?

MR STEPHENS: No, I can't say I did, but he went in that direction, and that's the last I saw of him.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, as far as the positioning of the crowd is concerned after the shooting, what happened to the injured and the dead people, where were they positioned with relation to the block of King George Street between Plein and De Villiers?

MR STEPHENS: Well the people I saw were all on the westerly direction on the corner of De Villiers and King George, basically were all behind that one car. That's the only injured people I really saw.

MR DORFLING: If witnesses before this Committee were to say that, and specifically ANC guards, were to say that they believed at the time when the shooting commenced that there was an attack on either the life or the property of Shell House, what would your comment be to that?

MR STEPHENS: Not a chance, noways. Because the entrance of Shell House is on the southern side of Plein Street, and they were a good 50/60 metres away, and on the wrong side of the road as well, it was around the corner. So I would not say - I'd say that would be totally untrue. I actually phoned the Citizen the next day because what they had reported in the papers, I - but then the journalist phoned me back and she said that she would come see me the next day, but then the next day she didn't come so I phoned them up and they said no, that she had suddenly taken leave, so that was the last of it. Because I actually - I couldn't believe what I actually read in the papers, because I was there, I actually saw it.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, did you see any firearms at the time of the security guard shooting on automatic fire, did you see at that stage any firearms amongst the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately the marchers were too far away from me, they were on the other side of De Villiers Street, so I couldn't see from there. So whether they did have or didn't, I can't say.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the shooting commenced, or throughout the time when the shooting was in progress, did you take cognisance of - or was there, do you know, was there any shots fired from your direction in the immediate vicinity of Nando's in the direction of the crowd? I'm talking on the business - your business side of the street.

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct) ja. I never heard any shots except for that ANC security guard who had the assault rifle. That was the only shot that I heard from that side, or any shot at that stage. If there were any shots from the northern side, I never heard them.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chair. Mr Stephens, just one question, before the guard with the AK47 fired a shot, that is now from the corner at King George and Plein Street, did you hear any other shots?

MR STEPHENS: No, I didn't.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Stephens.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Good morning Mr Berger, how are you?

MR BERGER: I'm very well thank you.

MR STEPHENS: Good to hear.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, according to your evidence at the inquest and according to your evidence today, and according to the statement that you made, there was absolutely no reason for the guards to have shot, and in your view this was, to use your words "cold-blooded murder", is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. From the position that I was in, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were in a very good position to observe exactly what was going on that day, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: I was in a good position to see what the guard did, but besides that I probably was not in the best position.

MR BERGER: Well, you were in your shop from 08H00 that morning until after the shooting incident occurred, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You were conducting business at your shop that morning, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: There wasn't much business because the streets were relatively deserted in that area of time, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You observed groups of marchers moving past and you've already told the Committee what happened with one group of marchers that you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That was the only group - the only marchers that I saw, the rest were just individuals moving up towards their destination that they had to go to. It was only one march that I actually saw some of the marchers.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers in front of Shell House performing mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: If there was, I think it would have been individuals, because I didn't see a big group of people as such.

MR BERGER: Did you see a smaller group of marchers, not as big as the group that was coming down King George, engaged in mock attacks on the guards at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: I can't say I do recall, unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: I can't remember that to be specifically, but what I did see outside the shop was one or two - that's why I said individuals. There were one or two guys with knobkierries and that, and there were some - just walkers-by, and they would you know, sort of half go for them and then just carry on - say something to them and then carry on. That's why I say it could have happened, because I did see that, but on the Shell House, at the entrance itself, I can't recall.

MR BERGER: Marchers would "half go" for whom?

MR STEPHENS: Just basically people walking in the street, whether they were ANC or not I'm not sure - making mock attacks at them. ...(tape ends)

Okay, say for example he's standing over here and he's walking this way and I'm walking that way I'd go like that with a knobkierrie and carry on, and maybe say something to him.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you are saying ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: Mock attacks, that's correct. But on an individual basis that I saw, it might be one or two people in groups, and I saw that maybe two occasions, maybe three.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: I know that's why I said, there unfortunately I can't say. I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR STEPHENS: I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You also never heard any shots being fired before the ANC guard opened fire with an AK47, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That is correct.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were fired earlier that morning, shortly before this incident from marchers who were in a westerly direction down Plein Street, towards Wanderers Street, you never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: I never did.

MR BERGER: We know that a shot was fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop shortly before the main shooting incident, you never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately you do, I don't know.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: I said unfortunately you do know it, but I don't, because I never heard it unfortunately.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend Mr Berger is perhaps in this regard relying on the ballistic evidence. It was merely one of the possibilities that somebody was firing from the southerly direction of Plein Street in a northerly direction up King George Street, it hasn't been established as a fact on my interpretation of the evidence. It was put as mere congexture of a possibility that might have existed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your question on the basis there was a possibility this didn't happen.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the evidence that I'm referring to was that the ANC witnesses said that there was a SADF person who fired a shot, that was the - the Police said that there was an ANC person who fired a shot. So it was disputed as to who actually fired the shot, but the fact that the shot was fired, as I understand the evidence, was not disputed. Perhaps Mr Dorfling could comment on that.

MR DORFLING: I don't think that's being disputed. I was talking of the direction from the Plein Street side in a northerly direction, into King George. That's what I thought my learned friend was aiming at.

MR BERGER: No, that's not what I was saying at all.

MR STEPHENS: You said the shot was on Wanderers side, hey, in Plein Street, is that the shot you're talking about?

MR BERGER: No, there are two incidents that I'm referring to, there was two or three shots fired ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Two or three, not one round?

MR BERGER: No, no, hang on a second - from a westerly direction, from the Plein Street side, two or three shots were fired. You never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately not, no.

MR BERGER: That's Wanderers ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: I know where that is.

MR BERGER: Towards the intersection of Wanderers and Plein, you know where that is?

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Then I'm saying that there was a shot fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop, near the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: That was the one that was disputed between the SADF and the security guard?

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: Or the ANC ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: And the Police and the guard.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, I never heard that shot either. How long before the actual shooting did this happen?

MR BERGER: Shortly before, a couple of minutes before the actual shooting.

MR STEPHENS: A couple of minutes, no I didn't hear it.

MR BERGER: You never heard that. Then there is also evidence that shots were fired from somewhere further up - further north of De Villiers Street.

MR STEPHENS: But in King George?

MR BERGER: No, not in King George.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Shots in De Villiers Street and further north of that towards Park Station, you never heard any of those shots?

MR STEPHENS: When you say the shots came from that direction, is it more towards Wanderers side, or is it more towards Plein?

MR BERGER: Wanderers side.

MR STEPHENS: Wanderers side as well, no I never heard that either.

MR BERGER: As you were in your shop, you had a clear view up King George Street, past De Villiers Street, towards Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well as far as the first line of marchers were, yes, I had a clear view.

MR BERGER: I will read to you what you said at page 2513 of the record Mr Stephens, I don't know if it was me who asked you - yes

"If I understand you correctly, you were standing behind the counter in your shop looking north up King George Street?" Answer: "Correct".

"And did you have a clear view all the way from where you were, right up, past De Villiers Street up to Noord Street?" --- Answer: "Basically, yes I did."

Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: I do. When - there was two parts to it, cause you said up to De Villiers up to Noord, because in the beginning in Noord Street the marchers were up to Noord and then they moved down to De Villiers, so I could only see up until the first line of marchers. After that, obviously with the people, I wouldn't be able to see further past. But I did have a fairly clear view, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes. But before ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Besides ...

MR BERGER: Before the marchers got to De Villiers, you could see all the way up to Noord Street, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Basically yes, a fairly good - a fairly clear view.

MR BERGER: And you were inquisitive to see what was going on, correct?

MR STEPHENS: From time to time, yes.

MR BERGER: I read again to you at the top of page 2515 of your evidence, I asked - bottom of 2514,

"What was it about the group that made you concentrate them? --- I do not know about concentration, I was not concentrating on them, I was just basically looking at them."

"Yes, and you continued to look at them?" -

question.

Answer: "Yes, because we are inquisitive to see what is going on."

Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now what you saw, if I understand your evidence at the inquest correctly, is that the marchers started gathering in King George Street near the intersection with Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: It looked that way, yes.

MR BERGER: And this process of the marchers gathering took approximately ½ hour, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Give or take 10 minutes, I'd say yes.

MR BERGER: The ½ hour is your estimation, page 2523 of the record.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, it was an approximate estimation, yes.

MR BERGER: And the marchers were coming from all directions?

MR STEPHENS: I wouldn't say marchers as in groups, I'd say on the individual basis, yes - individual marchers.

MR BERGER: Let met read to you at 2523, I asked you

"You say it looked like they were coming from both sides to fill up the street?" Answer: "Ja, they were coming one by one, two/three people sort of joining in."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: "Some were even coming up King George Street from Plein Street, walking up there as well."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Question

"To join the marchers?"

Answer: "I take it, yes."

Question: "Well the people who were going up King George Street towards the marchers seemed to you to be marchers themselves?" Answer: "Yes."

"Going to join the march? --- Yes."

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And some of these people were carrying their traditional weapons?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were.

MR BERGER: And they were walking from Plein Street, all they way up Plein Street, over De Villiers Street ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: King George.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, all the way up King George Street, over De Villiers, continued up King George Street to Noord Street to join this group of marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Correct. When I say one or two, it might only have been one or two, but the majority were coming from the top end, and most of the people, or marchers that were joining, went along Plein Street, some in the Wanderers direction and some in Klein direction and actually came around and joined. There were one or two that actually went up King George itself.

MR BERGER: No you didn't say one or two, you say "some were even coming", but I won't quarrel with that.

MR STEPHENS: Some.

MR BERGER: And this whole process took approximately ½ hour?

MR STEPHENS: Don't hold me to it, but roundabout there, I wasn't exactly timing them, but within - like I said, within 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Stephens, what is strange about your evidence, and a lot of other evidence that you give, is that nobody, and I literally mean nobody else describes this as having happened, you stand alone on this point.

MR STEPHENS: I can only say what I saw.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: I know it was closed. I think the thing that made me think that they were Inkatha marchers, some of them had either red bands on or some type of weapon, as in a knobkierrie or a stick, and that's the only way that I would say, but to actually say what type of clothes they were wearing, I don't know. A big assortment.

MS KHAMPEPE: And the red bands...(inaudible), were they around their heads?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, some were, I can't recall exactly.

MR BERGER: Thank you. This group that started at King George and Noord was approximately how big?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say it was hard to say, but it was fairly biggish. But the main time I actually noticed them properly, that it was a proper march, was when they came down to De Villiers, because by them the whole street was filled, which was a lot of people.

MR BERGER: And when you initially saw them they were not such a big group?

MR STEPHENS: Well I wouldn't say a big group from where I was standing, Noord - you must remember Noord is almost three streets up, if you look from Plein to De Villiers to Noord, and they were on that side of Noord, so I just saw people gathering. And that's why when I say people moving across in all directions, that is the way it looked at that stage.

MR BERGER: Coming in two's and three's?

MR STEPHENS: Ones; twos; threes, ja, basically. Maybe more ones than twos and threes.

MR BERGER: At that stage, when the group moved down towards De Villiers Street, there were no ANC guards standing on the corner of Plein and King George, am I correct, according to you?

MR STEPHENS: I actually can't recall, but they were in that vicinity of the entrance of the Shell House, and when they moved down to De Villiers, the ANC guard came out to the pillar, and there was a Policeman with him.

MR BERGER: Before - that's what I'm trying to confirm with you.

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Before the ANC guard came out to the corner of Plein and King George, there were no ANC guards on that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: During the day they would go there, then they'd move away; they'd go back to the entrance and they'd come back and move away and come back the whole time. They were just roaming around there the whole time, so I can't say at that specific time, I can't recall that they all were there or weren't all there, or one or two were there, I can't recall it.

MR BERGER: You see because your evidence at the inquest was the following

"There were not ANC guards on the corner at the critical time when the group approached the intersection of King George and De Villiers. As they came to the intersection of King George and De Villiers, this ANC guard came out alone to the corner of King George and Plein Street."

MR STEPHENS: Mmm.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: At that specific time it could have been.

MR BERGER: And he was on that corner with a single Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: Correct. And when he started firing, then the whole lot of them came running out - well not running out, but they were in that vicinity, but not right on the corner itself.

MR LAX: Sorry ...(inaudible), you keep saying "they came running out", I struggle to understand where did they come running out from?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, see Plein Street runs like this, you've got the entrance of the ANC of the Shell House which is probably 15/20 metres long, and they were all gathered in that area. Now they've got another 5 metres or 10 metres to go to the corner, and that's where they ran from. So they ran 5 metres - 10 metres, whatever. So in other words whether you're saying they were actually on the corner itself or near the corner, they were in that vicinity, but maybe not at that corner at that specific time when they guard started shooting. When the guard started shooting, then they came to the corner, the corner itself.

MR LAX: Are you trying to say to us that they appeared around the corner ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: To your line of vision?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, at that stage, yes. We're talking now as the shooting started, yes.

MR LAX: But you couldn't see around the corner yourself?

MR STEPHENS: No I can, I can see them, they're standing right here in front of me, I could see them. I think, like I said as well, most of the time we were looking more towards the marchers itself, because it's the last thing I expected is shots to go off at that stage.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. You were looking at the marchers and ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Most of the time, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes. And you can't say from where this person came with the AK47, but the last 5 to 10 metres you saw him coming from the direction of the entrance towards the corner of Plein and King George?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, see because we saw them the whole day type - well the whole day - well that whole morning anyway we saw them, and they were all around the entrance the whole time. And then, like I said, when the marchers were at De Villiers and King George, I saw him break away basically from the crowd and come and stand at the side there with the gun, and he got on his haunches on his knees.

MR BERGER: No you never saw him break away from the crowd, let me read to you what you said at page 2519

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Middle of the page

Question

"So you first saw the marchers, and then you saw this guard coming from the entrance of Shell House and positioning himself in King George Street?"

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Answer

"I cannot say I actually saw him coming from the entrance, I just saw him. I probably saw the last 5 metres from the entrance, coming in that - from the direction of the entrance that I saw him standing there by the pillar with a Policeman."

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, but I didn't say he didn't come from a crowd either.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: Sorry can you just turn your microphone up, I can barely hear you.

MS KHAMPEPE: I'm probably getting slightly confused because from the exhibit given to us by Mr Dorfling, that's Exhibit E, page 26, you state at paragraph 2 that you saw an ANC security guard coming out of Shell House and standing next to the pillar and there was a SA Policeman standing next to him. Are you still talking of the same person?

MR STEPHENS: Same person, yes I am. So in other words I saw him come out of the - well, in the vicinity of the Shell House. He was standing around there with the rest of the group, so in other words he had come out of the ANC basically, and from there he moved across. So I took it he was part of the Shell House guards, because I had seen him during the day, in that morning.

MS KHAMPEPE: What made him to be so conspicuous to you, what made you to observe him ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Well for starters he had an assault rifle with him and he was dressed in the ANC security guards' uniform.

MS KHAMPEPE: What kind of a uniform would that be?

MR STEPHENS: Well like I said, I noticed him having a white top on and black pants, and he was standing with the rest of the guys there, and obviously he's not going to be an Inkatha marcher if he's standing there with an assault rifle, that's the way I took it.

MS KHAMPEPE: Okay, were the other security guards that you later observed after his magazine had been finished, also wearing the same kind of uniform?

MR STEPHENS: No, they were all wearing plain clothes. He's the only guy that I recall actually wearing the uniform.

MS KHAMPEPE: And you say it was a black and white uniform?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I must put it to you that firstly black and white are not the colours of the ANC; and secondly that this man was not in an ANC uniform.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: There's no such thing as a uniform for the ANC guards.

MR STEPHENS: Okay well I was saying a security uniform is what I meant.

MR BERGER: Let's just get one thing clear Mr Stephens, you did not see this man come out of Shell House, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct I would say, yes. If you're being specific about that, yes.

MR BERGER: I'm using the words used by you in your affidavit.

MR STEPHENS: Well I - during the day I had seen him come out there, yes. But I couldn't say at that time specifically that he had come out the ANC - or out of Shell House.

MR BERGER: All you saw according ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: Sorry?

MR STEPHENS: Then it would be no.

MR BERGER: All you saw according to you was the last 5 metres from an easterly direction towards the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: Correct, 5/10 metres, yes.

MR BERGER: He stood there at the pillar and it was just the two of them, the ANC guard and the Policeman next to each other on the corner, no-one else was around them.

MR STEPHENS: At the pillar itself, no, just the two of them.

MR BERGER: No-one else was near them at that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, that's at the pillar.

MR BERGER: At the corner Mr Stephens, no-one was there at the corner other than this ANC guard and the Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: How far away from the corner do you mean, at the corner itself? Because if it's at the corner itself at the pillar I'd say no, but if it was at the corner - because you've got two corners, you've got the pillar here, and you've got the corner here, which is another 2/3 metres wide, and there some of them were standing and some of them were standing at the entrance. I'm talking now about supposedly I took it as ANC guards, I took it as that. They weren't in any uniform, they were in plain clothes, but they had handguns.

MR BERGER: The ANC guards you are talking about are the guards who were in Plein Street outside the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, at the entrance as well as close to the corner. But at the corner itself, at the pillar, it was only that I - well you're saying that there is no uniform for the ANC guard, a security guard with an assault rifle is the only ones that I saw at the pillar, which I took as the corner.

MR BERGER: Let me put it this way then Mr Stephens, the only two people at the corner of Plein and King George who could have seen the marchers coming down towards De Villiers Street would have been this ANC guard with the AK47 rifle, and the Policeman standing next to him, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they definitely could see them.

MR BERGER: The ANC guard standing outside the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street could not possibly have seen a crowd gathering at the corner of King George and De Villiers, agree?

MR STEPHENS: No, they knew that they were there because they were up and down the whole time. That's why I said they weren't in one specific space all the time, they were moving up and down. But at that time when the shooting started, there was only the Policeman and the ANC security - well I took it as okay, the security guard that was standing there, that's all that I knew at that specific time. Before that, 20 seconds before it, 10 seconds before it, the guys were moving up and down, so they knew exactly what was happening. But when the shots started, there was only the guard there and the Policeman. Ten ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: While they were outside, sorry.

MR STEPHENS: Ten seconds before, 15 seconds before, they could have been there, but when the shooting started, that's when I looked up and saw, and I only saw the Policeman and the security guard there, I never saw anybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: This much is clear, that those that you say were moving towards the corner and back towards the entrance, let's talk about them. Whilst they were outside the entrance, they couldn't have seen the marchers, that's quite clear isn't it?

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, if they - when they were at the entrance they couldn't see the marchers, which is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the picture that you have in your mind is that some of them were moving backwards and forwards.

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were, the whole time, standing in groups having a chat, moving back towards the corner to see what was happening, and moving back toward the entrance again.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, the evidence that you've given this morning about it's possible that 15 or 10 seconds before the shooting, there were ANC guards on the corner of Plein and King George was simply not given by you at the inquest.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe it wasn't asked, because I was talking at the time of the shooting, I wasn't talking like I said, a little time before, a little time after, it was just - the moment the shooting started, there was a Policeman and a guard there, that's all that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Well I'll just summarise your evidence at the inquest very briefly. At pages 2521 to 2522 you were - I see you have your evidence there.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: 2521 in the middle of the page, you saw a guard coming from the direction of the entrance of Shell House; you saw the Policeman, you didn't know where the Policeman came from. Then over the page you said that ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Like I said over here as well, it says "coming from the direction of the entrance hall", I didn't specifically say, because I probably at that stage didn't actually see him coming out of the entrance itself.

MR BERGER: And then you said at the top of 2522 that the Policeman was standing at the right-hand side of the guard, he was standing at the pillar; you said that the guard was right next to the Policeman, and then I said to you: "And at that stage it was only the two of them on the corner?".

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And your answer was you can actually recall it, you've got Small Street, Plein and then it becomes King George and Plein. So in other words they are on the corner of King George and Plein like you said, on the easterly side. And then I said to you

"Yes, and there is no-one else around them, it is just the two of them?"

Answer: "Basically, yes."

MR STEPHENS: Yes, basically yes. Because basically because at the corner itself it was just the two of them. If you're talking a couple of metres away, the other guards could have been there. Look here, this happened four years ago, my mind is not - you know, it's something I think about everyday. My main focus was on the guard and the Policeman and the marchers, whether they were two metres away, five metres away, I can't recall 100%. That's why I said "basically, yes".

MR BERGER: You see again Mr Stephens, on this point your evidence stands alone. Nobody, no other witness puts the guard and this Policeman alone on the corner at the critical time of the shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm just saying as I saw it. At that stage I saw the guard and I saw the Policeman, that's why I said basically that's all I saw at that time.

MR BERGER: Just to go back to the other incident where your evidence stands alone, about the marchers gathering at the corner of King George and Noord for approximately ½ hour, not even the marchers support you on that.

MR STEPHENS: What do they say?

MR BERGER: They say they came from Park Station, they split into two groups, some came ...(inaudible), others came along De Villiers Street, and they converged at the corner, at the intersection of De Villiers and King George. None of them talk about gathering up there in Noord Street for approximately ½ hour. All of them say that they alighted from the train at Park Station and proceeded directly in the direction of Shell House.

MR STEPHENS: Well I can only say that's - like I said the ½ hour, it could have been 10 or 15 minutes either way, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: Even on the 10/15 minutes, not a single marcher supports you.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, I could be wrong there, I don't know, but that's all that I saw at the time. At that stage 1 minute could have been 5 minutes, I don't know, but I saw the marchers, the marchers were there.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I put it to you that you're not being truthful at all.

MR STEPHENS: I'm being as truthful as I remember. But you must remember it happened four years ago, I don't think about this all the time. At that stage it might have felt like a long time.

MR BERGER: You also did not see a group of marchers coming ...(tape ends)

MR STEPHENS: At that stage I don't think I did see them, I just saw them basically in King George. But like I was saying earlier as well if you read my statement, we were serving customers, it was basically business as usual to a certain degree. So I just kept looking up and I'd just see marches getting bigger and bigger every now and then, that's all that I saw.

MR BERGER: You agreed with me earlier on this morning that it was not business as usual, in fact it was quite quiet you said.

MR STEPHENS: Yes it was, but we were carrying on as usual, it was just a quiet period, because we do have quiet periods in the shop as well, which is still business as usual.

MR BERGER: We know that a large group of marchers came along De Villiers Street from West to east, and congregated in the intersection. You never saw that, correct?

MR STEPHENS: No.

MR BERGER: Now your evidence is that this group that came down from Noord Street to the intersection of De Villiers and King George, stopped for a couple of minutes in the intersection, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were observing them, and yet you say nothing happened in that intersection for those minutes.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I can recall, no.

MR BERGER: For example, you did not see two white policemen in uniform, running up from Plein Street up King George to De Villiers ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: No ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: With arms outstretched in an attempt to keep the marchers away from Shell House. You never saw that?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall that, no.

MR BERGER: You never saw a tall, thin, white man with long hair, arms outstretched, trying to prevent the marchers from coming towards Shell House? You never saw that either, did you?

MR STEPHENS: I did not.

MR BERGER: And all of this was going on in the intersection at the time when the group was also in that intersection.

MR STEPHENS: Could be, I don't know, but I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You never saw the two white policemen being pushed out of the way by this group?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: You never saw the group engulfing this tall, thin, white man with the long hair?

MR STEPHENS: No I did not.

MR BERGER: And yet you say this group wasn't attacking. How can you say that if you never saw these significant moments?

MR STEPHENS: I can only see what I saw, and at - I didn't see them attacking anybody. They could have, I didn't say they never attacked anybody, I said I never saw them attack anybody. Whether they did or didn't, that's another thing. If you got other witnesses that did see it, well maybe it did happen, but I never saw it personally, so I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You also saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at the corner of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got to the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I could have.

MR BERGER: Would you like me to refresh your memory?

MR STEPHENS: Look here, it was a long time ago, if I said it at that stage, it could have been. I had seen Policemen the whole day in small groups of two's, maybe fours milling around there during the morning.

MR BERGER: Page 2529, top of the page,

"You saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there?"

Answer: "Correct."

Do you not recall that Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: Not right now, no.

MR BERGER: You told the inquest that there were three policemen on the inside of King George, and two or three on the western side of King George just standing looking at the marchers.

MR STEPHENS: Ja there were - at that stage there were policemen around there, but to tell you the exact amount now, I'd be lying because I can't remember.

MR BERGER: But you see, there weren't these policemen, three on the east and two/three on the west standing looking at the marchers up there at the intersection of King George and De Villiers. It didn't happen. So where do you get this evidence from Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: I can only tell you that's what I saw at the time.

MR BERGER: But the fact is that it never happened.

MR STEPHENS: Is it a fact? So in fact there were no policemen there, is that what you're saying, is it a fact?

MR BERGER: Not at that intersection. The only two policemen at that intersection were Van Greenen and Van Reenen, the two that I described to you, who ran up from King George towards De Villiers with arms outstretched to stop the marchers, and you never saw them, but you saw others.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe they were part of them that I saw. It actually says over here

"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?", and I said: "I cannot recall that."

If you actually read there. So at the time - I'm not saying that they were there, cause I actually said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Yes but if you'll turn over the page to page 2530 Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: The Court asked you

"There were a couple of Police where? What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of policemen."

Answer: "Say four - say two or three on either side of King George; three on the east side, two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Basically ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: And then I ask you

"Just standing there looking at the marchers?"

Answer: "Basically yes."

Then we go on a little bit further,

"You did not see them trying to control the marchers?"

Answer: "No."

"Then at some point after a few minutes of pause, the group crossed De Villiers towards King George, correct?"

"Correct."

Sorry, towards Plein, you say "yes" towards Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Can I just read this quickly? Okay I've said here,

"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group? No, I do not know. What I can remember is there was a couple of Policemen there, whether they moved around the corner or went away, I do not know."

That's what I'm saying, so by the time the marchers got there, the policemen moved away. Does it not say there, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, I don't know, your Worship - Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: On a point of clarification, Mr Berger, how soon would you say, Mr Stephens, after observing the uniformed policemen, did you notice the marchers converging at the intersection of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: Just repeat that please.

MS KHAMPEPE: How soon after you had observed the uniformed policemen, did you then notice the marchers converging at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: They'd already converged on De Villiers and King George, they had already converged when the guard came out. And he was - and that's when he got on his knees, on his haunches and he aimed towards them, and then when they walked across, that's when he started firing.

MS KHAMPEPE: I probably haven't made myself quite clear.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MS KHAMPEPE: See, in your - you've just stated to Mr Berger that you agree with what you've said before the inquest court, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen.

MR STEPHENS: What page is that one?

MS KHAMPEPE: That's on page 2529.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger has just put it to you that that's what you said during the inquest, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there. And you say it was before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, which is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now my question is, how soon did you notice the marchers converging at that corner, after you had observed the 10 blue uniformed Policemen you've alluded here at page 2529?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall, it might - don't know, can't recall. Because the lead-up to the marchers coming down, I saw Policemen in the street. Whether they were at the top there, in the street I saw the Policemen. When the actual march started when they crossed De Villiers, I never saw any Policemen after that, I can't recall seeing any policemen after that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you not even able to assist us in approximating in terms of seconds or minutes, or hours?

MR STEPHENS: No, because as you can see, the time that I mentioned before, I've been held to that time now, where at the time I wasn't sure what time it was, and I just took a guess at 30 minutes, maybe give or take, and I wasn't sure. And I'm not sure, I can't say any minutes, otherwise I'm gonna be held again to it, and I am not sure.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR STEPHENS: Because it actually says here, and I don't understand where Mr Berger - where the confusion is coming in.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR LAX: The impression I get from the evidence that's been put to you about what you said at the inquest, is that these policemen were watching the marchers, doing nothing, when you noticed them.

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now where were the marchers at that point, were they at the intersection already ...

MR STEPHENS: Of De Villiers, yes.

MR LAX: So they'd obviously got to that intersection, they were static at that point, and the Policemen were watching them.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: Because then they go on to ask you whether they intervened in some way, and you say no, not that you can remember, etc.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I saw, no.

MR LAX: And then after that the shooting happened?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, once they crossed the street - by then the Police had moved up towards the marchers. Maybe that's when - like Mr Berger says, they did try and stop them, I don't know. In that - maybe it was a question of 5/10 seconds where they were holding their hands up and telling the guys not to march. I might have been looking away in those 5/10 seconds, that's why I never saw it.

MR LAX: Just in terms of time, and not to pin you down, this is not the exercise, we're trying to get your help here, but we're talking more in terms of tens of seconds rather than tens of minutes?

MR STEPHENS: Quite right, one or two minutes, something like that, yes.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Stephens, there is no confusion on your evidence, your evidence at the inquest was, and I'll do it very briefly, 2529, you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at that intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You say correct.

MR STEPHENS: That's right.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you

"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?"

MR STEPHENS: I said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: No, not correct, "I cannot recall that." - sorry.

MR BERGER: And then over the page 2530, I continued to ask you, I said, confirming what you had already just said

"And when the group got to De Villiers, ..." this is at the top of 2530.

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: "... you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group?"

Answer: "No, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there, whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then the Court said

"There were a couple of Police where? What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of Policemen."

Your answer:

"Say four, say two or three on either side of King George, three on the east side, and two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Question from me

"Standing there looking at the marchers?" Answer: "Basically yes."

Now it's quite clear what you are saying, two or three blue uniformed Policemen on the west side of King George, three blue uniformed Policemen on the east side of King George - all of this is happening at the intersection of De Villiers when the marchers are there and the Policemen are just looking at the marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that was before the march, because if you go to page 2529 which is still part of the questioning, it says

"And were they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?"

And I said:

"I cannot recall that because I was looking more at the marchers than the Police."

And this is all in the same questioning, you can't just take a little context out and say okay, now that's the answer for it, you got to look at the whole thing, and that was part of the - this is continuing from 2529.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, if you look at the top of 2530,

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: I used your words when I said "when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group".

MR STEPHENS: And I said "no".

MR BERGER: And your answer was "no".

MR STEPHENS: So by then they'd moved away.

MR BERGER: No Mr Stephens, please just read what you got there, you don't say "they'd moved away", you said "no, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there". You don't say they moved away, you say the opposite.

MR STEPHENS: Then it says further on

"Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR STEPHENS: I actually don't know what you're actually getting at.

MR BERGER: Well what I'll put to you Mr Stephens, is that whichever way you want to take this evidence, its stands alone. None of the policemen ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: But here it says here

"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any policemen in the vicinity of the group? No, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of policemen there at that time. Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Let me move on Mr Stephens. As the group comes across De Villiers Street into King George, this guard with the AK47 opens fire whilst on his haunches?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And he fires straight into the group of marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: The Policeman just stood next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens this is your evidence I'm referring to.

MR STEPHENS: What page are you on now?

MR BERGER: Well that is your evidence, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Sure.

MR BERGER: No sooner had the group crossed De Villiers, than the guard opened fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically just about crossed De Villiers, yes. They'd come to the end of De Villiers Street when the guard started shooting. It wasn't that they were on the other side of De Villiers and then he started shooting, it was only once they'd - they were in King George, and if that's the road, as they came to the end of De Villiers, that's basically when they started shooting, give or take a metre or two.

MR BERGER: As they entered into King George Street?

MR STEPHENS: Basically as they had just about crossed De Villiers Street, almost into King George, yes.

MR BERGER: And this ANC guard emptied an entire ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Security guard.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: You said security guard - ja, you said it - okay, ANC guard.

MR BERGER: I said "this ANC guard".

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Emptied an entire magazine on the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that, I said that he shot on automatic and I wasn't sure if he had emptied - if he had actually finished the whole round. I just took it for granted because I didn't think this he's gonna change the magazine if it wasn't empty. So I take it that he did finish it.

MR BERGER: For how long did he shoot?

MR STEPHENS: 10/15 seconds, I'm not sure, but ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: Well I won't keep you to that, in your evidence in the inquest you said "a good 15 to 20 seconds". You said he fired 7 to 10 bursts, a good 15 to 20 seconds before he released, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Then he re-loaded and then he started firing on single shots?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And the policeman was still standing next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked to me, yes.

MR BERGER: Again Mr Stephens, your evidence on this stands alone. No-one else describes the shooting in this way, but it's what you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That I did see, yes, and I was right there.

MR BERGER: Who else fired shots at the marchers, you've mentioned the ANC guard with the AK47, who else fired shots?

MR STEPHENS: And there was a guy with a green uniform - a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but it was like a matching top and pants.

MR BERGER: Green?

MR STEPHENS: Green.

MR BERGER: And besides the man in green, who else fired shots at the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Well I only saw one other person that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR STEPHENS: It was another one of the guys that was standing around there, that I took as part of the ANC ...(indistinct), round - that was hovering around, but I can't say he was part of them or wasn't, but that was the only other person. So there were basically three people that I saw shoot - actually fire, but my main concentration was on the guard that was shooting as well as the guy that ran across the road because he was quite - it was quite explicit where he was actually coming from. And at that stage I was outside the shop as well, and that's why I saw him, and that's when I ran back inside again.

MR BERGER: Again, your evidence about the man in green absolutely stands alone. No-one else talks about this man, no Policeman, no ANC guard.

MR STEPHENS: Well all I can tell you is I definitely saw him, and I'm under oath, and I swear to God, I saw him. I saw him shoot, I was there, I saw it. Whether nobody else saw it, it's the same as other things that I never saw, whether other people didn't see it as well, I don't know. But I saw it.

MR BERGER: Now ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: And I've no reason to lie either. In fact it would be in my better interest not to be here.

MR BERGER: Well you've been subpoenaed haven't you?

MR STEPHENS: Only after I gave a statement to the Police, but I actually didn't want to let it come to this. So I would definitely not make up things, I can assure you of that.

MR BERGER: The other man who was shooting, now not the man in green and not the ANC guard with the AK47, where was he shooting from?

MR STEPHENS: He was standing next to the pillar on the corner there.

MR BERGER: Same pillar where the policeman and the ANC guard was?

MR STEPHENS: More to the right.

MR BERGER: More to your right?

MR STEPHENS: More to their right.

MR BERGER: And yours?

MR STEPHENS: And mine, correct.

MR BERGER: Now these two, the man on the right and the man in green, they only started shooting at a time when the AK47 was being fired on single fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That I could recall, yes. That's the only time I noticed them because if you can imagine this assault rifle shooting on automatic, I think any other little handgun, you basically not even gonna hear it, so they could have been shooting before that, but at the time I didn't see it, because I only heard the AK basically, or the assault rifle. So they might have been shooting before, but I never heard them at that stage.

MR BERGER: Isn't it your evidence, or wasn't it your evidence that the other ANC members only came out and started firing after the man with the AK47 was shooting on single-fire?

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: And so at the time when he was shooting on automatic, that 15 to 20 second period, there was no-one else at that corner firing shots?

MR STEPHENS: I didn't say ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: In fact there no-one else at that corner.

MR STEPHENS: I said that there was nobody else that I noticed shooting. So in other words, according to my statement, they wouldn't be shooting because I never noticed it.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said at page 2536, Mr Stephens, line 11

"When his magazine was finished, he then re-loaded and started shooting on single-fire. Other ANC members afterwards," this is now after he was shooting on single-fire, "with 9mm came out and also started firing, okay, and also started firing on the crowd, and that is what happened."

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you the question

"So the other ANC members, the man in the green safari-suite, the other one with the 9mm who fired, they only came out from the entrance and started firing after this man with the AK47 was already shooting on single-fire, correct? --- That's what it looks there - and that is not correct, because when he started firing, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed the guy that fired with the green uniform afterwards."

"In other words when he was shooting on single-shot? --- I do not know if he was there before because what was happening, when he was shooting on single-shot other people was still coming out as well. I do not know if they were inside the building, they had come down, or whatever, but they came out afterwards."

MR STEPHENS: Correct. So in other words, if you read over here

"That is not correct, because when he started firing, in other words on automatic, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed that the guy had fired with the green uniform afterwards."

So in other words when he started shooting on automatic the other guys came running out, and I noticed a couple of them standing there, whether it was all of them -but guys - obviously they came to see what was going on, that the guy was shooting on automatic. And I only noticed them shooting when he put it on single-shot, and the reason for that is, it took a couple of seconds to change the magazine and it probably drew my attention to the fact that I heard other shots because now the assault rifle had stopped firing.

MR BERGER: Please turn to page 2538 Mr Stephens, line 17, this is not when you're trying to get the attention of the Policeman

"You wanted to get his attention so that he could stop this man from now shooting on single-fire?"

this the man with the AK47.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Your answer

"That is right, because by then the other guards had not started firing yet."

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that I noticed. According to me they hadn't started firing yet, maybe they had have, I don't know. But at that stage I did not see them shooting, or recall them shooting.

MR BERGER: See Mr Stephens your evidence is quite clear, the 15 to 20 second burst with the AK47 was fired directly into this crowd by the ANC guard standing alone on the corner with a Policeman.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: It's only after that the he gets joined by ANC guards from the entrance of Shell House.

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect to my learned friend, the witness has answered this question on numerous occasions. What the witness said is after that gentleman - after he saw that gentleman firing on automatic fire, only after that did he realise that somebody else was not also firing. He never said nobody was firing before that point in time.

MR STEPHENS: You see, the thing is everything that's written down here, I can only answer from what I saw. They might have been shooting beforehand, I can't say that they were or they weren't, because I can only say - and that's what I've written in my statement here, is what I actually saw. And whether I noticed a minute later or five seconds later that somebody else was also shooting, you must realise that assault rifle is quite a loud shot compared to a little 9mm or a handgun for whatever calibre it is, and it might have been drowning. When he was shooting on automatic obviously it was drowning the other bullets out, I don't know, I can't say because they might not even have been shooting, I don't know. But according to your witnesses they say that they were.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said in your statement that you wrote shortly after the event. You talk about in paragraph - this is page 26 of Exhibit E, you say

"The IFP or Zulu marchers", paragraph 3, "were gathered at the top end of King George. When they approached De Villiers Street coming down in King George, this ANC security guard then started firing on these marchers with his automatic rifle - think it was AK47, he was shooting on automatic."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then paragraph 4

"When his magazine was finished he then re-loaded and then started shooting on single-fire. Other ANC members with 9mm pistols or pistols then came out and also started firing on the crowd."

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Statement is very clear Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: That the other ANC members with 9mm pistols only came out and started firing on the crowd at a time when the ANC guard was shooting on single-fire, it's clear.

MR STEPHENS: That's not the way it was because - well that's - I don't obviously express myself very well, because some of them had been there while he was firing, so...

MR BERGER: Well that wasn't your evidence at the inquest, it's not in your statement.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, where - just show me where in the inquest, because everytime I've gone through it I think I've sort of proved you wrong, so I'd like to know - because you keep making these statements and you're not upholding it. You even twisting words inside here, and when I read it out to you again it doesn't come out the same way.

MR BERGER: Let me just read to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger may I just intervene at this stage to find out now where are we getting with all this detailed cross-examination on minor differences between what he said here and what was said earlier, and so on. How is the amnesty process advanced by this kind of evidence?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this witness says that there was a man with an AK47 who opened fire on a crowd for 15 to 20 seconds. That evidence stands alone, there's no evidence to support that.

MR STEPHENS: So what you're saying the AK ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) (microphone not on) and we're not beginning a trial here, I want you to appreciate that please. ...(inaudible). We've got his evidence, we've got the record of the evidence at the inquest ...(inaudible). There are differences between what he's saying now and what ...(inaudible) at the inquest. You can make whatever point you wish to make, ...(inaudible). I'm not going to stop you from continuing your questioning, but I'm just concerned that maybe ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: As the Committee pleases.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger, may I try to be on the same page probably with your cross-examination? Has it not been one of the applicant's version that there was a man who leaned against a pillar from the position which is nearly the same as that alluded to by Mr Stephens, who fired an AK47?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's correct.

MR NGCOBO: But wasn't that one of the applicants Mr Berger?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Yes it was.

MS KHAMPEPE: And it's Mr Beea if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: No, no ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: I can't remember then the name of the applicant exactly.

MR BERGER: It's Mr Khumalo.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Khumalo, that's right. So I think probably we do understand where you want to get us to, but I think you must just try and reconcile that with the criteria that we have to use as a Committee. If you could just curtail your cross-examination to that.

MR BERGER: I will. Ms Khampepe, it's not in dispute that there was a man with an AK47 at the time, but you would have gathered from the evidence of the ANC guards, and in fact the evidence of policemen who were on the scene as well, that the ANC guards were all in a group on the corner of Plein and King George when the shooting began, which is - stands in stark contrast to the evidence of this witness.

MS KHAMPEPE: No I'm sure we are fully aware of that by now, you've really traversed quite a lot to make that crystal clear, we now understand what your cross-examination is aiming at.

MR STEPHENS: I think what you're trying to say is - you know, the thing is, I saw a guard standing there with the policeman. Now you're saying that the rest of the guards were all standing there with him. Within 4/5 metres they might have been, because you've got two pillars here - when you standing with him, I meant - I took it that you're talking them actually standing around the guy with the AK47, which I did not notice at that stage, they were a good 2 or 3 metres away from him, towards the corner because - but I think we're splitting hairs here you know, it's very - it's a small thing this here. Basically the guard did shoot, other ANC members also shot, and I think that's the basic evidence, I don't know whether the guys were 2 metres or 3 metres away, what difference that actually does make. I've never said that they weren't there, they were there, and I've even said that they were shooting.

MS KHAMPEPE: I think the problem Mr Stephens, we don't want to debate this, Mr Berger is a bit worried about what you stated quite earlier on when the issues were quite fresh in your mind, as he has referred us to page 26, particularly at paragraph 24, where you state quite clearly that ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Sorry is that 22 ...

MS KHAMPEPE: Page 26 of ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: 2526?

MR LAX: No, page 26.

MS KHAMPEPE: No, page 26, that's Exhibit E, the statement that was handed over by Mr Dorfling to us this morning, where you are now - you are stating that the guards came out only after the man with an AK47 had finished his magazine and had re-loaded and was now only firing single shots. And we understand the ambit of - the thrust of your cross-examination Mr Berger, to that extent.

MR STEPHENS: No because I only then noticed the ANC members coming out and also started firing. So only then that I noticed it. You must realise when I wrote this, it was abbreviated, it wasn't an in-depth ...

MR LAX: Can I just clarify one thing. It seems clear to me from what you've been saying that your attention was focused on the man who was shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: You didn't - the other people that were in his vicinity weren't shooting as far as you can recall?

MR STEPHENS: Not that I noticed ja, it was like a blur because I basically, like I said in my statement before, I was basically watching the guy with the AK47 and the marchers diving behind cars, and it's only then afterwards that I noticed the other guys there shooting.

MR LAX: When things slowed down and there was a changing of magazines and so-one, then you became aware of other people on your version, coming out, that's how you express it ...

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR LAX: And then they start shooting as well.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed them shooting. That's why I said, they could have been shooting beforehand, I'm not disputing that.

MR LAX: Ja.

MR STEPHENS: It's the same with other - the guys on the roof on the other side on that parapet, or whatever you call it - on a balcony, I never even noticed those people, but they were there. That's why I'm saying, it could have been but I never noticed it, so I can only say what I saw.

MR LAX: Can I say this, if there were people standing in close proximity to this man with the AK47 that was on his haunches, would you have seen them? Did you actually see them?

MR STEPHENS: I saw them, yes, I did see them, but I didn't - how can I say, thought that they were participating at that stage, because they were at the corner.

MR LAX: You see, the impression that you give us in your evidence is that you didn't see them, but you only noticed them later.

MR STEPHENS: Well that is basically what happened. That's why I'm not saying they weren't there, they could have been there, but at that stage my focus was on the guy with the AK47.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STEPHENS: They could have been there, but I never really noticed them as such, and that's why my evidence that I give might be a little misleading in a way - to the nitty gritty, to great detail, which I don't have unfortunately.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, when the guard with the AK47 opened fire, were you watching him, or were you attending to business?

MR STEPHENS: I was watching him. Because when he started aiming I knew that something was gonna happen because the people were too far away for anything to really start happening, and for him to start aiming at them at that distance, I just thought something's gonna happen, and I don't realise why it's gonna happen.

MR BERGER: You never saw a marcher with an AK47 firing in King George Street between De Villiers and Plein?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately I did not it, no, and I never heard it either.

MR BERGER: You see, there was a witness, a Mr Diaz, who worked in a shop in King George Street, directly in your line of vision.

MR STEPHENS: I don't dispute that, he could have seen it, but I never saw it, so I can't say I did. Like I say, I never heard it, whether he did or didn't.

MR BERGER: And he said that at the time this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 10 metres past his shop, Mr Diaz's shop, towards Plein Street, and he put his shop, the entrance to his shop as approximately 20 metres from the corner of De Villiers. In other words, what he was say was, at the time that this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 30 metres into King George Street.

MR STEPHENS: Between De Villiers and ...

MR BERGER: Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Plein. No, I disagree with that, because as they crossed, they weren't even 5/10 metres, they basically got up to the car when he started firing, so I would disagree with that.

MR BERGER: A Policeman by the name of Skippers also saw a marcher with an AK47 between De Villiers and Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: He could have, I never saw it.

MR BERGER: Your evidence is that the guy with the AK47 opened up, after 15 to 20 seconds he reloaded, and the road was basically clear except for the people who were hiding behind the cars?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And was only then that the two other ANC people, the one in green and the one not in green, started firing.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed. They could have started firing before that, but I never noticed.

MR BERGER: If that was your evidence, you certainly would have told the inquest court that as well.

MR STEPHENS: But I just realised that whatever I'm saying now I'm getting held it, it's like the nitty gritty, we're going into great detail. At that stage it was just you know, basically suddenly things were happening, I didn't realise that this was the way it was gonna lead. I know I've got to watch what I say now, and I can't recall everything.

MR BERGER: For the record Mr Stephens, we went into great detail at the inquest as well. You never heard any warning shots being fired, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: And you're absolutely certain that the very first shots you heard that morning were shots fired by the man with the AK47 into the crowd?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that I heard, yes.

MR BERGER: The white person, the white man with the long hair who you never saw, testified that this crowd at the corner of King George and De Villiers were waving their weapons and then proceeded down King George Street towards Plein Street on full charge, in the manner of carrying out an attack.

MR STEPHENS: If that's the perception he got, I can't say that it's not. That's his perception, and that's his version, but from where I was standing it did not look like a charge, it looked like the start of a march.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Just one aspect with your leave, Mr Chair. Mr Stephens can I hand you a map depicting the scene, and I would like you to with reference to this map, just indicate with the red pen with the letter "O" - I see there's another red mark, it might be misleading on another place on the map, but with the red letter "O" where your business concern was situated, from where your view was.

MR STEPHENS: Okay. Okay, can I just see if I'm understanding that correct, you wanna know where the guy with the AK47 was standing, where he was shooting?

MR DORFLING: No, I want you to with the letter "O" point your business concern.

MR STEPHENS: Oh business concern.

MR DORFLING: Your business premises. Before you hand back the map, can you at the same time with the letter "P" perhaps indicate where the gentleman with the automatic assault rifle was positioned.

Mr Stephens in conclusion may I ask you whether from your vantage point where you were positioned, can you from that point actually observe the main entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: From my shop to the main entrance, yes I can.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair. If that could just be handed to the Committee. That's unfortunately the only one I've got, may I beg leave to just get it back once it's been ...(indistinct)

I've got no further questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stephens thank you very much, you're excused.

MR STEPHENS: Thank you sir.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm ready with the next witness, I've just been talking to my learned friend who has a watching brief on the South African Police Services. It would appear that it's not advisable to start with the evidence in chief now and commence after lunch, I would rather have us adjourn now, we might perhaps just start a bit earlier if you so wish, and then proceed with the evidence in chief of the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Your reason for not starting now?

MR DORFLING: It's virtually lunch, it's 12 minutes to lunch time, we would probably not even finish the evidence in chief of this witness, I'd rather have us adjourn perhaps 10 minutes and start 10 minutes earlier, to have the evidence in chief and the cross-examination in one session.

CHAIRPERSON: Well on the understanding that we do start 10 minutes earlier ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I indicate, unbeknown to me I have made an arrangement to meet someone at between 1 and 2, but of course I may have to cut it short in order to be here, but there's no reason I submit, why we can't use the 10 minutes now available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now Mr Bizos, if we did there's gonna be very little difference in the totality of all this evidence.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then whilst your absence is gonna be missed by me, I'm sure that we'll be seeing more of you.

GENERAL LAUGHTER

MR BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and we will resume at 13h50.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I've been told that on - those who have difficulty, his evidence in Afrikaans can be heard on channel 4.

J M S POTGIETER: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Chairperson, Sergeant, you are a Sergeant that is stationed at the Border Police, Johannesburg International Airport?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were a Constable in the South African Police, and on that day you were stationed at the Small Street Satellite Police Station, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is there not another way that we can do this, because one is hearing English and Afrikaans at the same time? Is it not possible for the interpreter to sit in the panel - in the booth?

CHANNELS BEING TESTED BY INTERPRETER - CONTINUED ON TAPE 3

MR DORFLING: ... of March 1994, Sergeant, you were stationed at Small Street Satellite Police Station?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: During that morning you were posted for service at Shell House, and more specifically on the corners of King George and Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: Originally we were posted to patrol in the station, and the Colonel gave us the instruction to patrol at Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Were you on foot when you were posted at Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: We were transported there with a vehicle, but at that stage we were on foot.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any Zulu marchers going past Shell House when you were there?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR DORFLING: Shortly before what is known now as the chief shooting incident, certain events took place in which you were involved. Can you briefly describe what happened?

MR POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and Klein Streets. We heard a gunshot in a western direction, we ran in that direction. When we crossed King George we heard shots being fired from the back of us. We took shelter, turned back and saw that there was an ANC guard, and we gave him the order to stop firing.

MR DORFLING: You said that there was an ANC guard on the parapet and you gave him the order to stop firing?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Did you see him firing?

MR POTGIETER: I heard him shooting.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: We stood up and moved back in the direction of Klein Street. When we crossed King George we saw a group of protest-marchers in King George Street at Noord Street.

MR DORFLING: You therefore moving down from west to east in Plein Street in the direction of King George Street at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly did you see the protest-marchers?

MR POTGIETER: They were in King George Street on the corner of Noord Street. It was a large group, they were in King George street between De Villiers and Noord.

MR DORFLING: In what direction were these marchers moving?

MR POTGIETER: They were moving southwards down King George?

MR DORFLING: In the direction of De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly was your position at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and King George.

MR DORFLING: And what happened next?

MR POTGIETER: Then between 10 and 15 ANC guards arrived on the scene. Sergeants Van Reenen and Van Greenen moved northward up from Plein Street in the direction of De Villiers in order to prevent the approaching Zulus.

MR DORFLING: Were there any other Police members with you where you were?

MR POTGIETER: Myself and Sergeant Gollach.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: I was with the ANC guards and Sergeant van Reenen that was with the ANC guards, that stood between them and Sergeant van Reenen.

MR DORFLING: So you were more or less in the vicinity of the corners of King George and Plein Streets?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Between 10 to 15 ANC guards, those that you saw there, were they armed?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Which arms did you see?

MR POTGIETER: Handguns as well as a man with an AK.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: I turned around and looked at Sergeant van Reenen and the others to see what was happening, then when I turned around again and ANC guard was pointing a weapon at my chest and told me to leave or he would shoot me personally.

MR DORFLING: In other words you looked northward up King George and De Villiers Street in the direction of the protest-marchers; after that you turned around, you were still on that corner and at that stage the weapon was pressed against your chest?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: What happened after that?

MR POTGIETER: I moved around and saw that the man was serious. I went to stand behind them. From there I looked in the direction of De Villiers Street and saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen being pushed out of the way, in the directions of east and west.

MR DORFLING: Just a moment, you said that you moved around them, you are now referring to the ANC guards?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What do you mean when you say that you moved around them?

MR POTGIETER: If I stood like this, I moved around them to the back.

MR DORFLING: Were they in a specific formation?

MR POTGIETER: No they were just a group of people standing there.

MR DORFLING: You took your position in behind them and looked in the direction of De Villiers Street - north, what happened then?

MR POTGIETER: They told us that they would shoot, upon which we told them not to shoot, and upon the moment that Sergeant van Reenen and the others were pushed out of the way, the shots were fired.

MR DORFLING: Where did the shots get fired?

MR POTGIETER: From De Villiers over the street corners into King George, that was approximately 5 to 6 steps from the corners when they pushed the two officials out of the way.

MR DORFLING: So these protest-marchers crossed De Villiers Street, they were moving in a southward direction, and you say that the front part moved into King George approximately 5 to 6 metres?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And when the shots were fired, did you know from where they were fired?

MR POTGIETER: From among the guards.

MR DORFLING: Are those the guards behind which you took your position?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What did you do then?

MR POTGIETER: When the shots - while they were still shooting we kept on asking them "don't shoot, don't shoot", but when the shots went off I ran around the building to see what had happened to Sergeants van Reenen and Van Greenen.

MR DORFLING: When you say that you ran behind the building - or around the building, do you mean from east to west down Plein and then north into Klein, and then once again west into De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, from west to east in Klein and then from east to west in De Villiers.

MR DORFLING: So you ran past the main entrance of Shell House, around the Shell House building, into De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Until the stage that the first shots were fired, did you watch the protest-marchers?

MR POTGIETER: Correct, it was one image from where I stood.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any fire-arms among the marchers at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR DORFLING: This Committee has heard evidence that the protest-marchers shot in the direction of either Shell House or where the guards were standing; that the marchers stormed forward in the direction of the ANC guards and that the ANC guards were under the impression that an attack was being launched on them. What is your reaction to that?

MR POTGIETER: I heard no shots from that side, they didn't run, they were toyi-toying, it was sort of a jogging motion at a metre distance tempo, they didn't dash.

MR DORFLING: On the day of the incident, 28th of March 1994, how many years of service had you behind you in the South African Police?

MR POTGIETER: Almost two years.

MR DORFLING: Were you at any stage before that day involved in marches, specifically where Zulus were involved?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct, part of my functions were to assist in marches.

MR DORFLING: The image that you had in the direction of De Villiers Street, the group which you saw moving forward, was their behaviour in any way different to the experience that you had had of such marches before that day?

MR POTGIETER: No, they were basically just toyi-toying.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Just one question please, Chairperson. Sergeant, earlier that morning, you were in the vicinity of Lancet Hall, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: From where did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

MR POTGIETER: The motor-gate in Von Weilligh Street.

MR PRETORIUS: When you went there was the gate in order?

MR POTGIETER: It was in order, I broke it.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you break it yourself?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Why?

MR POTGIETER: In order to gain entry because the front gates were locked.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Is it Sergeant Potgieter?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Can we first of all deal with the shooting a few minutes before the main shooting in Plein Street, do you recall that?

MR POTGIETER: Ja we heard the shots, ja.

MR BERGER: You can speak in Afrikaans if you like.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Those shots, those first shots that you heard, they came from the direction of Wanderers Street, corner of Wanderers and Plein, correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that a number of Policemen then went to investigate what was going on down in Wanderers Street - you started off going in that direction?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct Sergeant, that the reason you went in that direction was because one of the ANC guards came to your group of Policemen and said "they're shooting at us, please go and investigate"?

MR POTGIETER: No, we heard shots and we went to investigate.

MR BERGER: You were with - at that time you were with Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: And Gollach. I don't know about Van Greenen, but Gollach definitely.

MR BERGER: Gollach was there, and Van Reenen was there?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You went in that direction to investigate and then there was a shot behind you?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that behind you at the time, there were ANC guards and there were also members of the SADF?

MR POTGIETER: I know about the ANC guards, but not about the National Defence Force.

MR BERGER: You say that that shot that you heard behind you came from the ANC, but is it correct that you don't really know who fired that shot?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, we saw a man with a shotgun on the parapet, that's all.

MR BERGER: You only saw one ANC guard on the parapet with a shotgun?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: That shot that you heard which you attributed to the ANC, was that the only shot that you heard which you would have attributed to the ANC before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: There were no other shots in and around the vicinity of Shell House prior to the main shooting other than this particular shot we're talking about?

MR POTGIETER: No, not that I know of, it's only those shots that we heard that made us run in that direction.

MR BERGER: Prior to that shot, or the shots which you heard coming from the direction of Wanderers Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: If one has a look at your affidavit, paragraph 13 - page 13 sorry, paragraph 3, this is where you deal with the shooting from the direction of Wanderers Street, and that's where you say that you Sergeant Gollach and Sergeant van Reenen ran in that direction, you say there

"While we were busy running in that direction people came out or appeared on the balcony of Shell House with shotguns, which they shot over our heads at a group of Zulus who were in Wanderers Street."

MR POTGIETER: In my affidavit I say that there were people on the balcony, but not that people appeared on the balcony, meaning that they were already there. I didn't say that they had appeared on the balcony.

MR BERGER: They shot with shotguns from the balcony ...(intervention)

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Towards the people - marchers in Wanderers Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I don't want to nitpick with you, but your evidence was that there was one person, and this was the same point that was raised at the inquest, one point with the shotgun, and you can't explain why in your affidavit you speak about a number of people with shotguns, am I right?

MR POTGIETER: No, that's correct.

MR BERGER: What is not disputed is that there was a group of marchers in Wanderers Street and you and Sergeant van Reenen - or Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant Gollach were of a view that there were shots had come from their direction, and that's why you went in the direction to investigate.

MR POTGIETER: The shots came from that direction, but we don't know exactly if they came from the Zulus.

MR BERGER: But you saw them there?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: And would you confirm your evidence at page 3101 of the record that there two or three shots ahead of you, that's from the direction of the marchers in Wanderers Street, one shot from behind?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you were coming back, is it correct that you didn't go further down Wanderers Street because you - I beg you pardon, Plein Street towards Wanderers Street, because that group had now disappeared?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were now coming back towards Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: And I take it you can't dispute that Sergeant - or was it Constable Scheepers was also with you at that time?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, I didn't see him personally, I know that he had been posted there at Shell House.

MR BERGER: He stated in his statement and he also stated in evidence, that as he was crossing King George Street in Plein Street moving in an easterly direction, he saw a marcher with an AK47 approaching down King George Street between De Villiers and Plein.

MR POTGIETER: No, at that stage they weren't that close.

MR BERGER: Did you ever see a marcher with an AK47?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And no stage?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you never saw a marcher firing an AK47 either?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you were standing on that corner for the entire duration of the shooting?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You also wouldn't be able to explain or comment on the evidence of Mr Diaz, you heard me put it earlier this morning whilst you were in here to Mr Stephens, that Mr Diaz says there was a man with an AK47, in fact firing. In his statement he says: "spraying Shell House", but then in his evidence later, he said: "firing an AK47 into the air", right in front of his shop.

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see somebody like that.

MR BERGER: He was there, you ought to have seen him.

MR POTGIETER: If he had been there we would have seen him, we were in the street, but I didn't see that person.

MR BERGER: You also never saw any marcher shooting towards Shell House at any stage?

MR POTGIETER: No, I saw no shots being fired from that side.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were in fact fired at Shell House, but you didn't see that?

MR POTGIETER: I didn't hear or see them.

MR BERGER: You had received no specific instructions when you arrived at Shell House other - from Major Nel, other than to do general patrols around Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were quite worried were you not, that you as Policemen were under-staffed, should any trouble break out at Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: At that stage we didn't think that any difficulties or problems would arise.

MR BERGER: During the evidence at the inquest it was either Sergeant Gollach or Sergeant Scheepers who said that - I asked them "were you not afraid what should you do if trouble broke out", and the one of them's evidence was "yes I was afraid, in fact I asked Sergeant Potgieter what we should do and I discussed it with him, and he also didn't know, he was also afraid".

MR POTGIETER: At that stage I wasn't a Sergeant.

MR BERGER: Well he spoke about Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: No, I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: The Policeman in charge was Major Els, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at the critical time of the shooting he was nowhere to be found, is that also correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And I see a smile coming onto your lips because you know what the next question is, isn't it correct that you pulled him out from under a car, he was hiding under a car during the shooting?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: He had been - just before he took cover under a car, he had been at the corner of Plein and Klein Streets, am I right?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, that's where the car was.

MR BERGER: And that's where you found him taking cover?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now the ANC guards who came to the corner of King George and Plein Street, came in a group - there were a number of them who came to the corner, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee today that they were armed with handguns and an AK47?

MR POTGIETER: In as far as I know.

MR BERGER: Those would be 9mm handguns and one AK47?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, one could call them handguns, 9mm 762's as well as AK's.

MR BERGER: So when you say in paragraph 5 of your statement at page - of your affidavit at page 14, that: "They had shotguns and 9mm pistols", that's incorrect?

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember everything, but I know about the pistols and the AK, a man was lying there and shooting.

MR BERGER: This evidence of an ANC guard pointing a gun at you and saying that he would shoot at you, that's not correct is it Sergeant Potgieter?

MR POTGIETER: It is correct.

MR BERGER: You made this up after the event didn't you?

MR POTGIETER: Negative.

MR BERGER: Other than the shots that you've testified to about down at Wanderers Street and the one shot behind you, there were no other shots prior to the actual shooting incident, you've already said that to the Committee. You never heard any shots in De Villiers Street shortly before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You never heard any shots coming from the direction of Park Station shortly before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were stationed at the corner of Plein and King George?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You'll recall Sergeant Potgieter, that when you gave evidence in the inquest we did an exercise in Court and we - to get an approximation of how long the shooting lasted?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: And we agreed that it was approximately 12 seconds?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: From the time that the marchers were shot at until the shooting ended, 12 seconds.

MR POTGIETER: Yes, approximately that long.

MR BERGER: And at no stage did you hear any warning shots being fired?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And also at no stage did you witness any shots being fired into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of Plein and King George?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You see, because we know from the ballistic evidence that shots were fired into that overhanging ceiling, and we know specifically that two 9mm shots were fired, to use the words of the expert "directly upon into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of King George and Plein", you never witnessed that?

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: It's your evidence that there was an initial shot from amongst the group of ANC guards.

MR POTGIETER: There was the one shot, and then a millisecond later the gross shooting took place.

MR BERGER: You never saw a man in green running across the road and firing shots down the western pavement of King George Street?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now you saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen moving down - or north up King George Street to the intersection to try and prevent the marchers from coming down?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they had their hands open and they were clearly indicating to the marchers "don't come down this way"?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they were completely ignored by the marchers and your words were "pushed out of the way"?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know that Sergeant van Greenen received an injury in that process?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, we found that out subsequently.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that prior to the main shooting incident you thought that the Police needed reinforcements?

MR POTGIETER: There was a large group of people, yes. One would have expected or needed greater assistance.

MR BERGER: From where did the marchers come?

MR POTGIETER: In King George from Noord Street in a norther direction.

MR BERGER: From north to south down King George?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers coming from De Villiers, from west to east towards King George Street?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see anything like that.

MR BERGER: You'll have to speak up.

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see such people.

MR BERGER: I take it that you were particularly concerned to see what was happening in the intersection when Van Reenen and Van Greenen went up to stop the marchers?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at no stage, is it correct, did you see a tall, thin white man with long hair also attempting to stop the marchers from proceeding down towards Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see such a man.

MR BERGER: Isn't it possible Sergeant Potgieter, that you were not observing the marchers at all relevant times?

MR POTGIETER: No, I did observe from time to time.

MR BERGER: You see, because there's no doubt that that man, his name is Mr von Eggedy, that that man was in the intersection at the critical time.

MR POTGIETER: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: And therefore I put it to you that you were not observing the marchers at the critical time.

MR POTGIETER: I did.

MR BERGER: How many of the ANC guards at the corner there of Plein and King George did you see opening fire on the crowd?

MR POTGIETER: I'm not entirely certain, but I would say about 10 to 15 people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: Between 5 and 10?

MR POTGIETER: Approximately 10, between 10 to 15, give or take a number of people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: This person, Mr von Eggedy, says that the marchers were waving their weapons around and that they commenced coming down towards the corner of Plein and King George, or towards Plein Street, on full charge in the manner of carrying out an attack.

MR POTGIETER: No, they toyi-toyied, it was a sort of a jogging-walking motion, it wasn't a sprint that they ran, it was a sort of dance.

MR BERGER: Surely if you never even saw Mr von Eggedy, you can't dispute his evidence as to what was happening at the critical time Sergeant Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: I didn't see Mr von Eggedy, I don't know what he saw.

MR BERGER: Mr von Eggedy too was injured as the marcher overran him.

MR POTGIETER: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: He is seen on TV with blood streaming down his face.

MR POTGIETER: I don't know, I only saw the photos during the inquest.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Sergeant Potgieter, that as the marchers - as you saw the marchers ignoring Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greenen, and as they began their attack, that you ran around the corner for your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Did you ever run around the corner for your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say in paragraph 9 - I beg your pardon, paragraph 8 of your affidavit, it's at page 14 of Bundle E, you say, I will translate from Afrikaans to English

"The Zulus then pushed Sergeant van Greenen and Van Reenen out of the road and moved closer to Shell House. One of the people who stood there with me shouted that they were going to shoot - that he was going to shoot, which he did."

Well while we're at that point, I put it to you that that never happened.

MR POTGIETER: A shot was fired, I can't remember seeing a specific person firing that shot. One shot was fired and then the gross shooting began.

MR BERGER: After - what I'm putting to you, I'm not putting to you that there wasn't shooting, I'm putting to you that he didn't shout "we're now going to shoot", and then shoot.

MR POTGIETER: That happened.

MR BERGER: "After he started shooting everyone was standing around him began shooting with shotguns", which you don't remember anymore, "pistols, and the person with the AK47 started firing with automatic fire."

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You'll agree with me at least if I put it to you that there were no shotguns at that corner?

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER: "There was also a person on the balcony of Shell House who began to shoot at the Zulus with a shotgun."

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER: Well, I can tell you that there were four people on the balcony, and as far as shotguns are concerned, there were three people who fired shotguns on the balcony.

MR POTGIETER: Probably, I don't know.

MR BERGER: And then this is the part that I wanted to read to you

"I saw" - and I'll read it in Afrikaans, "Ek het gesien dat van die Zulus val en het toe om die hoek beweeg vir veiligheid en het toe om die gebou beweeg om te sien of ek hulp aan die ander twee lede kan bied."

MR POTGIETER: That was the during the inquest, I can't remember why safety was put down there. Where I was standing there was no danger to me in my direction. I just moved around the building to see whether I could offer assistance to the other two members.

MR BERGER: So when you say here that "I moved around the corner for safety", you cannot explain why that appears in the affidavit?

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Isn't it because you are a little embarrassed, and really there's no reason to be embarrassed ...

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: To admit that things were actually frightening at that time, and that you did what any person would have done in your position, and that was to just get around the corner for safety.

MR POTGIETER: No, the Zulus were approximately 50 paces away from us. On that corner there was no danger because I heard no shots from that side, or experienced any danger from that side in my direction.

MR BERGER: You see because if you had gone around the corner for safety, that would explain why you didn't see Mr von Eggedy; that would explain why you didn't see the man with the AK47 infront of Mr Diaz's shop; that would explain why you didn't see any shots being fired at Shell House by the marchers, it would explain a whole lot of things if you would just explain what is in here in your affidavit that you went around the corner for safety.

MR POTGIETER: Sir I didn't see any white man, I didn't see anybody running in front of the shop with an AK47, I didn't run away to seek safety.

MR BERGER: You also said in your evidence at the inquest that after you'd gone around the corner from King George to - along Plein to Klein and then up to De Villiers, and then round again to the corner of King George and De Villiers, that you spent three quarters of an hour on that corner, you recall that evidence?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And it was only after you'd spent that three quarters of an hour that you returned back to the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And we've dealt with this before, but I'm sure you know where I'm going ...

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: Paragraph 9 of your statement, of your affidavit, page 15, this is now after you've gone around the corner "vir veiligheid" and gone around the building to see if you can help anybody, you say

"...ek het later ongeveer 2 minute later terugbeweeg en het op die hoeke van Kleinstraat en Pleinstraat gaan staan."

Now you say that's not correct?

MR POTGIETER: I don't know about the two minutes later, this entire paragraph is not part of my memory.

MR BERGER: We'll come to the rest of the paragraph, but this statement, this affidavit you signed three days after the incident, so these events were very fresh in your mind at that stage.

MR POTGIETER: Yes, I can't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, the reason I'm going to suggest to you why you've now put yourself three quarters of an hour at the corner of King George and De Villiers is because, as you say, the rest of this paragraph wouldn't make any sense, but let me read it to you

"Daar het toe weer geweervuur vanuit die gebou regoor die Shell House gekom in die rigting waar die Zoeloes hulle bevind."

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now that "gebou" would be the building above Nando's wouldn't it?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: "Een van die persone wat nog op die hoeke van Pleinstraat en King Georgestraat geskiet het vir die Zoeloes het na die deure van die Shell House beweeg ...",

this is now one of the ANC guards moves to the entrance of Shell House, the doors of Shell House,

"... en met 'n haelgeweer na die gebou oorkant die Shell House waar die vuur vandaan kom, gevuur."

This person then runs to the entrance of Shell House, takes a shotgun and shoots at someone shooting out of the Nando's building.

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: You've had plenty of time to think how this - since I asked you these questions at the inquest, to think how this could possibly have come into your affidavit.

MR POTGIETER: I still don't have an answer.

MR BERGER: Sorry Sergeant, just a few more questions. Chairperson, I have no further questions to put to the witness, but my learned friend Miss Moroka has some questions, it relates to Lancet Hall, if she could just put these questions. Thank you Sergeant Potgieter.

MS MOROKA: Sergeant Potgieter, I want to ask you questions only in relation to the gate at the basement of Lancet Hall.

MR POTGIETER: Okay.

MS MOROKA: You do have your evidence there infront of you?

MR POTGIETER: Ja, I've got it here.

MS MOROKA: You were asked a question by Mr Berger at the inquest, you described how you forced open the door, is that correct? You then indicated that it opened - that you broke the hydraulic mechanism.

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MS MOROKA: And you were able - the door opened - I mean the gates opened only for a small space ...

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MS MOROKA: That enabled you to go through?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: You then also further indicated that you don't know what happened to that gate thereafter.

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know what happened to the gate.

MS MOROKA: You cannot say whether the gate - people were able to go in and out of - using their ...(indistinct) in and out of the gate?

MR POTGIETER: No I wouldn't be able to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair. Sergeant with reference to the scene as you found it when you moved around Shell House to look for your colleagues, do you still have any picture in your memory regarding where the injured and those who had died were positioned in relation to the block between De Villiers and Plein Streets?

MR POTGIETER: The only picture that I still have is that when I came around the corner there was a person with his back against the pillar and his ankle had been shot off, that's the picture that I have in my mind.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any idea of what the furthest was that a deceased or injured person had been lying down that block in the direction of King George and De Villiers Streets?

MR POTGIETER: Approximately 10 paces from the shop corners until King George Street.

MR DORFLING: In a southern direction?

MR POTGIETER: Yes that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any impressions of whether or not you noticed any weapons, be it firearms or traditional weapons?

MR POTGIETER: All that I saw was basically spears, corpses and shields, I didn't see any firearms.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant, I just want to ensure at which specific point in time you left the scene around Shell House, could you assist us in that relation, you were standing behind the guards?

MR POTGIETER: I stood behind the guards ...

MR DORFLING: You heard the shots?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Could you tell us how far you could see before you moved in an eastern direction down Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: As soon as the shots began to subside, when it was no longer that intense shooting, I went around.

MR DORFLING: At that stage, was there still any gunfire when you started running?

MR POTGIETER: I don't - I think so, it began to subside.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been questioned about whether you saw this gentleman called Mr von Eggedy at the scene.

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you didn't see him?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: What could be the reason why you didn't see him if he was in fact there, was it because there was too much of a crowd that blocked your view?

MR POTGIETER: There was a great number of people there and it would have been very easy for him to become lost among all those people if he was indeed there. However I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other reason why you may not have seen him besides the possibility that the crowd was too big?

MR POTGIETER: No, not as I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that your own attention was not focused all the time there, and you were concerned about your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: I was concerned about my own safety when the man pressed the pistol against my chest, and that's the only time that I was really afraid for my own safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that must have given you some idea as to what might happen to you.

MR POTGIETER: Yes to me personally when the weapon was pressed against my chest.

CHAIRPERSON: And did that not possibly put you in a frame of mind where you were very concerned about your own safety as to what might happen?

MR POTGIETER: What could happen, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your attention then was, if I may use the word "attention", was not on the scene all the time because you were a very worried man as to what might happen to you.

MR POTGIETER: I was watching them all from where I was standing at the back, and the entire scene was infront of my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you yourself armed?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody who saw you would see that you had an arm - that you had a gun in your hand?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, if they had seen me from affront.

CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues, were they also armed?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Everybody could see that they had guns in their hands?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, they should have been able to see that.

CHAIRPERSON: If any of them used their guns, would you have known?

MR POTGIETER: No, not at Shell House, none of us fired any shots.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't have known?

MR POTGIETER: I would have known, I know that Sergeant van Reenen fired gas.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear gunshots without knowing where they came from?

MR POTGIETER: In the beginning before the gross(?) shooting began, yes, from a western direction in Plein Street, but we didn't know specifically where the shots were being fired from.

CHAIRPERSON: And later during that morning, did you not hear gunshots ...

MR POTGIETER: At which point?

CHAIRPERSON: Without knowing where they came from?

MR POTGIETER: No, just earlier that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The time you went around Shell House to see whether you could help your friends, at that stage did you hear any gunshots?

MR POTGIETER: I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just hold on.

MR BERGER: Just one other question, in the same sort of vein, that was the evidence of this person with the AK47 who was shooting outside the shop that Mr Da Silva spoke about ...

MR POTGIETER: Yes?

MR BERGER: I just want to know if there was any reason that you can offer us why you didn't see that happen?

MR POTGIETER: No, I can't give you any reason, I didn't see it. It was in the street, in King George Street. There is no reason why I shouldn't have seen him.

MR BERGER: Okay, that was really the point I was more interested in, if there was - if it did happen, you surely would have seen it?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Thanks.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave there's one aspect I omitted. Looking at the statement again, specifically paragraph 7, with your permission, may I just ask the witness about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant I want to refer you specifically to paragraph 7 of your affidavit on page 14 of Exhibit E, the person with the AK47 to whom you are referring, you described his clothing in the final sentence of paragraph 7, you said he was wearing a white bulletproof jacket, do you confirm that?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thanks very much you are excused.

MR POTGIETER: Thanks.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman with your leave may I ask for a very short adjournment, I would just like to discuss something with my colleagues who are appearing on behalf of the objectors before we call our next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Certainly not Mr Chairman.]

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairman, as it would appear from the index of the list of witnesses to possibly give evidence on behalf of the objectors, on whose behalf I appear, I would like at this point in time to indicate as far witnesses no 3, 5 and 6 are concerned, that we do not intend calling these witnesses. Mr Chairman may I just with regard to the motivation thereof, on the 24th of June we were requested to motivate the reason for witnesses being subpoenaed by the Committee, and in response thereto on the 25th of June we replied inter alia in paragraph 7 of the letter

"Although we requested a number of witnesses to be subpoenaed, we must stress that they all give a specific interpretation of what transpired. They furthermore give a perspective from different vantage points and different stages of the incident. We do not intend to duplicate any of the evidence and therefore anticipate that we would only call as many witnesses as would contribute to a considered decision by the Amnesty Committee."

That is the position with regard to those three witnesses, hence us having decided not to call witnesses no 3, 5 and 6. That leaves only two witnesses remaining on the list Mr Chair. As far as Mr Ralph von Eggedy is concerned, we've been trying desperately to locate him, we've even asked Ms Patel to assist us, we've asked the Attorney-General's staff, the Investigating Officer of the Shell House inquest matter to assist us. Up to this stage we are not able to locate Mr von Eggedy. As you would no doubt see from the judgment of Mr Justice Nugent, it is an important witness. We were trying to get hold of him, we tried all avenues but without success at this point in time. He's therefore at this point in time not available as yet. The last ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Wasn't there some kind of an agreement in regard to his evidence?

MR DORFLING: With regard to the present proceedings Mr Justice Ngcobo?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I'm not sure that there was any specific agreement which - I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not some kind of an understanding that his evidence at the inquest would go in by consent?

MR BIZOS: ...(inaudible) argument in which the evidence of Mr von Eggedy was praised and we said we accept that and second it, and Mr von Eggedy's evidence stands as whatever it says it says.

JUDGE NGCOBO: That leaves us with the last one, Mhlaba.

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, at the adjournment of the last proceedings I already indicated that this witness will be called. I had by agreement on that date agreed with the witness to come and consult with me last week, he didn't arrive. Somebody's trying to locate him, he's supposed to be residing at Room 7E Mansfield Hostel. We haven't been able to locate him, I can't advance any reason for his non-attendance of the meeting last week. I haven't been able to get in touch with him. I've got two gentlemen actually trying to locate Mr Mhlaba. His statement is contained in pages 37 and 38 of Exhibit E. I would therefore request some indulgence to try and locate this witness. He is indeed one of the marchers, Mr Chair, I've insisted on the gentlemen looking for him, to try and have Mr Mhlaba available tomorrow morning. I cannot give any assurances, it is difficult to locate him, there's no way of contacting him but in person, and we're having difficulty to locate him.

MS KHAMPEPE: Is he still residing at the address you just mentioned Mr Dorfling, to your knowledge?

MR DORFLING: That was the indication I had from the witness the last time when we adjourned here.

MR TIPP : Mr Chairman may we just raise the position of now Inspector van Reenen, Sergeant Gollach and Sergeant van Greenen. Now obviously we've never consulted with any of those gentlemen. Their evidence falls into a different category from that of Mr von Eggedy because there are matters in dispute in respect of their evidence, which is not the position of Mr von Eggedy. Now it's not our wish to make work for the Committee or to delay the proceedings, all of those persons are present here Mr Chairman. We don't want to call them as our witnesses, if they had to come we'd prefer to cross-examine them obviously, but if there is agreement between ourselves and our learned friends that one may have - make reference to what they have said and concessions that have been made by them for the purpose of argument before the Committee, then we would have no difficulty in leaving the position as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that are here.

MR TIPP: No Mr Chairman, sorry, I didn't make myself clear, in the course of their examination in the inquest, because again, they were fully examined by all sides.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TIPP: So really on the same - in the equivalent of that of Mr von Eggedy, but with the understanding that unlike Mr von Eggedy, there are matters in dispute in respect of what they've said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, if I may just indicate, there are definitely certain points in dispute as between the applicants and the objectors with regard to that evidence, there has been certain findings made in this regard by Mr Justice Newgent and you've rightly indicated, we're not re-visiting the Shell House inquest, so only in as far as the aspects are common cause, can this be regarded by this Committee. Without this Committee having seen these witnesses and having had regard to the points in dispute, I think what we would be doing is to re-visit the Shell House inquest judgement instead of having our own decision or this Committee's own decision on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a great deal of our time has been taken up in visiting the inquest proceedings, isn't it. Lengthy cross-examination of witnesses from both sides relating to what they said during the

inquest and why their evidence in the inquest differed from what they're saying now and so on. That's been carrying on on a substantial scale up to now.

JUDGE NGCOBO: ...(inaudible) that these witnesses may have given evidence at the inquest, and also to the extent that that court may have made certain findings often concerning their evidence and then as witnesses, what are we to do about that?

CHAIRPERSON: We're not concerned with the findings of the inquest court, but by consent, their evidence as it stands may form part of the record. I think that's the suggestion that is being made.

MR TIPP: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But what about the findings of the inquest court, are we - in regard to that?

MR TIPP: No, without regard to the findings that that is simply embodied as part of the record of these proceedings, upon which we will then mount argument Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: But Mr Chair, I've got a difficulty with that proposition, it means we accept evidence without it being placed in the perspective of the totality of the evidence at the inquest court. There's been a ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, hold on.

JUDGE NGCOBO: How are we to evaluate that evidence?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I appreciate that, it's really my learned friend's list that we're talking about, if he's not happy to do on the basis that the record is placed before the Committee. If the Committee in turn is not happy to look at untested evidence, then we would with respect suggest that they be called as witnesses. We understand ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee does not know what evidence these people are going to give ...

MR TIPP: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, and for us to say we will call them at this stage might not be a particularly judicious decision, without know what it is all about.

MR BIZOS: May I come in here Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: It is - counsel for the Committee, Mr Chairman, can call the witnesses. We will confine ourselves once they have taken the oath, to ask and to confirm certain evidence that they gave at the inquest. If that is not accepted, our learned friends will have an opportunity to cross-examine them, but there admissions in that evidence which we consider vital to the just decision of this case, and relying on our learned friends that they would call these witnesses, we came here to hear them and we would not like to loose the value of those concessions that they made at the inquest Mr Chairman, and we would urge that counsel for the Committee can call them, should they not ask them anything more that identify themselves, and give us an opportunity to ask a few questions of each one of them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll take a short adjournment to consider this matter.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant van Reenen, is he here?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been subpoenaed to come and give evidence in this matter, will you just come forward please.

We've considered the request on whether questions should be put to you or not, and to Sergeant Gollach and Van Greunen. The Committee has decided that since you've been subpoenaed to attend, and that you are here, that the applicants be afforded to put such questions to you as they wish so that we may have a full picture of what happened. Do you understand?

MR VAN REENEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Now put such questions as are relevant to the purposes of this inquiry.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Inspector van Reenen, we spent many hours in the inquest court, we are not going to spend that long here today. I just want to remind you of a few aspects of the evidence that you gave in the course of the inquest and to ask you to confirm whether it is correct.

MR VAN REENEN: Fine.

MR TIPP: Now first of all, you will remember that after you were assigned to go to Shell House and you got there at about 10h30, a little after that you heard some shots in the vicinity from somewhere down Plein Street in a westerly direction, do you recall that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And an ANC guard in fact came up to you where the Police were and asked you please to intervene and go and deal with it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's is correct, he asked me to accompany him.

MR TIPP: And it was clear to you and the other Policemen that the ANC in fact wanted the Police to take charge of the situation there and to ensure security?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, on that day they asked us to go with.

MR TIPP: Do you agree with what I'm putting to you, that they wanted the Police to ensure security of the lives and property there at Shell House?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to us and told us that there was a shooting taking place, he asked us to go with, and we did.

MR TIPP: I'd like you just please to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Tip ...

MR TIPP: Yes?

MR LAX: Sergeant, you can put on some earphones and have the Afrikaans translation in your ears, clearly ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: That won't be necessary thank you.

MR LAX: You okay with that?

MR VAN REENEN: Mm.

MR TIPP: Inspector just deal with the question crisply please that I'm putting to you, was it clear to you that that man from the ANC wanted the Police to deal with it and to look after the security of the situation there?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to me and asked for my assistance, and I accompanied him.

MR TIPP: Now a little after that you went off to investigate, Inspector you've heard - well let me come directly to the point, very shortly after that, you saw the - a large group of marchers of about 500-strong moving south down King George Street. At that stage they were between Noord Street and De Villiers Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You and Sergeant van Greunen ran towards them to try to divert them?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And do you agree with me that at that stage events were happening very fast and in an atmosphere of very high tension?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You knew that Shell House was the national headquarters of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I knew.

MR TIPP: You knew that the march that day was part of the IFP campaign against the election?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you knew on that day of the long-standing history of conflict between the ANC and the IFP?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And when you saw this large group of armed marchers approaching, the possibility of a violent confrontation between them and the ANC personnel was clear to your mind?

MR VAN REENEN: As you've seen in my affidavit, moments before the group there was already a shooting incident which had taken place on the corners of King George and Plein Streets. I thought that there would be a confrontation between the two approaching groups, and that is why I went to the two groups to deter this kind of conflict.

MR TIPP: And Inspector, you'll recall I think during the course of the inquest proceedings that you were shown certain photographic material, and from your own observations at the time, you will remember that the portion of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street was one that had a number of concrete barricades across it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: On the Plein Street side those concrete barricades ran right across King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And on the De Villiers Street side a couple had been moved aside to allow a car in and out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: But for the rest it was also barricaded, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: And also of course we know that King George Street as one moves south, it doesn't proceed, it runs directly into buildings?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, in Small Street.

MR TIPP: You as at 1994, you were a Policeman with 8 years experience and had some experience with crowd control and crowd movements?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And I think you'll agree with me that of all the streets in the vicinity there, that block of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street, was the most unsuitable for the movement of a large number of marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I would say so.

MR TIPP: Well De Villiers Street was wider and open.

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Wanderers Street was wider, Klein Street was wider, yes?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: And open, yes?

NO AUDIBLE ANSWER

MR TIPP: If you nod, we won't ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I agree.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, we've been busy with the application here for - over some days, I want with your assistance, objectively to try to convey to the Committee what the state of mind was of yourself at that time, and through that to try to convey in slightly more detail as to the atmosphere at that time, are you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I understand you.

MR TIPP: Good.

MR VAN REENEN: Now your state of mind as you ran up King George Street in the direction of the marchers, you realised, you saw, and your evidence was that the sight of that large on-coming group of armed people was a sight to induce fear, particularly for anybody who might consider it his duty to try to stop them.

MR VAN REENEN: I wouldn't put it in that light, the group came down King George Street, they were toyi-toying. As I've already said, I had managed a number of marchers before, and I wouldn't say that I was afraid of them, that's why I approach them, in order to deter them, because in previous marches one would usually go to the Induna, they would usually listen to you and they would do what you asked them to do.

MR TIPP: Well that's what would normally happen with a crowd control, the position on this day in fact was different, there was no Induna that you could see, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: I moved to the group, I didn't see any other group as such, I moved to that group.

MR TIPP: Just deal with the question, you didn't see any Induna to whom you could have - whom you could approach?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR TIPP: And also there were no Policemen moving with the group?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector van Reenen, I want to remind you of your evidence, we can go through the record if necessary, but at the stage that you were at the front of the group, you then feared for your own safety, is that correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's, when they had already crossed De Villiers Street and they didn't want to concede to my appeal to move down De Villiers Street, I moved right in an eastern direction and I was bumped out of the way, myself and Sergeant van Greunen, by the crowd.

MR TIPP: You used in the inquest frequently the phrase "hulle het jou uit die pad uit gestamp", correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And now at that stage it was clear that this was a different kind of march from ones that you dealt with previously, two uniformed Policemen openly carrying weapons had gone to them, with arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and clearly indicating that should turn away, and they ignored you, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now at that stage, let's look at your state of mind, at that stage did you fear for your own safety?

MR VAN REENEN: I knew firstly that I was on the corners of King George and Plein Streets where shooting had already taken place moments before. It was an ANC building, here was an IFP march approaching the building, there would possibly be further confrontation and I was caught between the two parties, and I moved right.

MR TIPP: Well let me just read to you a few lines from you evidence at the inquest. Mr Chairman I begin at 2094, at line 24. I asked you the following question, I said

"I'm not discussing possibilities with you, I want you to tell us what your state of mind was at that instant...", we're talking now about the stage that they were clearly going to ignore you, "and let me ...", the question goes on, "... let me ask you again and you can answer, did you fear for your safety - or let me stop there, did you fear for your safety?" --- and your answer "Ja, toe hulle oor die straat beweeg en ek gesien het ek kan die mense nie keer nie, toe gaan ek na die kant toe"

then over the page, Mr Chairman, 2095, the Court understood it, the Court said:

"Dan is die antwoord ja.", --- and you said "Ja, in daardie opsig, ek moes wegkom voor die groep want anders sou die groep my ook moontlik beseer het. Indien wel, toe beweeg ek weg voor die groep."

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And then the Court went on in the next line, said

"So die antwoord is ja ...", did you fear for your own safety, "...die antwoord is ja, is dit so? --- Van die groep se kant af, ja. Hulle wou nie afgedraai het nie en ek wou nie voor hulle bly nie."

So from the on-coming group's side you feared for your own safety at that stage?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, that's exactly what I've said, after they had already crossed the street and they didn't want to concede ...(intervention)

MR TIPP: That's the stage I'm now talking about, how things developed there when they clearly ignored the Police instructions to turn away. And on that same page, the very next lines Mr Chairman, just for the record, at lines 11 to 13 on page 2095, I then asked you

"Did you think then Inspector, that if you try to stand your ground, that you would be overrun and physically harmed by this oncoming group?" --- And your answer was simply "Ja."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And at page 2096, Mr Chairman, lines 18 to 20, in that context I specifically asked you, the previous question was the sight of this group proceeding onwards despite the efforts of the Police to divert them, that was the context, and then I asked you specifically at line 18"

"For anyone in their path, was it not a sight to induce fear?" --- And your answer: "Ja, die persoon wat hulle wil keer, natuurlik vir daardie persoon."

Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember, just to put it in the perspective of the perceptions of the ANC people who were on duty to protect the building and the lives of those in it, I asked you whether you could point to any facts that would suggest that their perception that what was happening was an attack, and you said you could point to no facts to suggest that that perception would be wrong, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You confirm it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, one of the important elements playing a role in that situation, from the point of anybody like yourself who was involved in it, was a question of time, and again I'm not going to waste time, it's not intended to be a pun, I just want to get directly to the point. You'll remember at one stage I asked you "did it ever occur to you to use teargas to try to keep them away", and your answer was in the context of your were already close to the group and it was no longer possible to do that. Do you remember that bit of evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were asked at page - at 2098 some questions by the Court, the previous question beginning at line 19 Mr Chairman

"Hoekom het u nie omgedraai en in King George Straat terugbeweeg en aanhou om die groep te probeer keer?"

In other words why didn't you just continue your efforts to stop them and move all the way down King George?

You answer: "As ek dit so moet vat, indien daar gevuur sou gewees het sou ek in die middel gewees het voor die groep en voor die mense wat op die hoeke staan van King George en Pleinstraat."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So you're saying, from your point of view at that stage, you were now between two possible perils, the oncoming group which might harm you, and the ANC who might harm you if in fact they opened fire?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And the Court then went on in the next question

"Is dit nou wat u gedink het op daardie stadium, as ek nou voor hierdie groep aangaan, miskien gaan ek geskiet word?" --- and your answer was, I'm going to read it: "Alles gebeur so vinnig op daardie stadium, daar gaan so baie deur 'n mens, jy moet altyd alles voorsien, jy het 'n paar sekondes om te dink wat moet jy doen, waarnatoe moet jy gaan, wat moet jy presies doen in daardie spesifieke tyd."

Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And does that still in your mind correctly reflect the pressure that was on you at that time?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: When - I think when you speak here about a few seconds, "'n paar sekondes", you literally meant that, it was just a few seconds.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And extrapolating Inspector, the ANC personnel would have been in substantially the same situation as you, they would also have had literally at that stage as that group kept coming past - ignoring you, kept coming on into King George Street, they also had literally a few seconds in which to assess the situation and to react.

MR VAN REENEN: They had more time than I did because they were further away from the group than I was.

MR TIPP: It's a very short block that, isn't it?

MR VAN REENEN: Approximately 50 - 60 paces.

MR TIPP: And they were already into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: They were with me approximately 10 to 15 paces into it.

MR TIPP: Roughly speaking, another 40 metres?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if they moved fast, it would literally be a matter of seconds before they were on top of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: But they had more time that I did at that stage.

MR TIPP: We're not talking about whether you only had 3 seconds and they might have had 7 or 8 seconds, I'm just putting to you that literally they also only had a few seconds in which to assess and deal with the situation.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I want to also very briefly Mr Chairman, to underline the sense of urgency, the sense of pressure, and the sense of peril that attended that situation, with a few references to one or two aspects of the evidence. You follow what I'm doing?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now it's common cause Inspector - well let me put the context of it first, my apologies Mr Chairman. Your evidence was emphatic at the inquest, you saw a group coming down King George Street and you say there was not a group at all in De Villiers Street.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I'm putting to you that it's common cause that there was in fact a very large group, numbering in the region of 500, which at the same time as the one came down King George, moving south, had come along De Villiers Street moving east to the very same intersection.

MR VAN REENEN: That is not so. We wouldn't have pointed the group into the direction of De Villiers Street, because there was another group coming up and they would have collided. There was no group coming up De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: That's your recollection of it Inspector, but I'm just putting to you that it's common cause that there was this group, and the fact that you didn't see it and believed that you could in fact direct a large group in that direction, illustrates again how difficult it was for anybody to form a clear sense of what was happening, even on so large a scale. Would you accept that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I would not agree because I looked down De Villiers Street, and there was no group approaching. At that stage no incident had occurred on those corners. The group was still moving forward, I went to them, De Villiers Street was open, and I did not show them down De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: By the same token, and along the same vein, it's common cause that in that very intersection, literally in the moments before the shooting began, there was Mr von Eggedy, the one you've heard so much about and you've heard references again to him today while you were listening to the evidence. And I believe Inspector, that you've seem perhaps a video of him or at least photographs of him.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know.

MR TIPP: You haven't?

MR VAN REENEN: No I haven't.

MR TIPP: Well it's common cause that in the intersection immediately before the shooting there was this tall gentleman with strikingly long hair circling the intersection and calling on the marchers to stop. Now you didn't see him?

MR VAN REENEN: Chairperson, if you could just precisely indicate to me where this person was in the intersection, was he already in King George Street after the intersection, or was he himself in the intersection where I was, because if they say that he was in the intersection, then I don't agree with that because no other person was with me in the intersection, it was only me and Sergeant van Green in the intersection. If it's possibly after the intersection in King George Street, it could be, but that had to be after the intersection.

MR TIPP: Well Inspector, I'm going to do the next best thing to showing you a video of what happened, because the only pictorial depiction that we have is one prepared by Mr von Eggedy himself, entirely independently, Mr Chairman in Bundle B at page 112. Mr Chairman I think it's not necessary for the Committee to turn it up, but it's the sketch portion of Mr von Eggedy's very first statement. You will see there Inspector where Mr von Eggedy puts himself, in the intersection, circling in it.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't agree with this evidence. I don't agree, he was not in the middle where he says that he was, because I moved from the northern side into King George Street, I re-iterated back down the street in an eastern direction and there no person behind or in front of me while I was deterring the marchers into De Villiers Street. He could not have been there at any point as he alleges, according to me.

MR TIPP: Well let me then put to you for your comment, the evidence of your colleague, Sergeant van Greunen. You're doubtless aware that Sergeant van Greunen testified at the inquest that what he saw was a group of about 500, coming from De Villiers Street and turning into that part of King George Street next to Shell House. And to put it in slightly more detail, Sergeant van Greunen says that when you and he ran up to stop the crowd, they had already turned into King George Street, in other words they were already through the intersection. Now that was your colleague Sergeant van Greunen who ran right up next to you.

MR VAN REENEN: That's not correct, that is not what happened on that day. As I've already said, there was one group moving down King George Street in a southern direction, that is the only group which I observed.

MR TIPP: Immediately after the events you went off to find Sergeant van Greunen, he'd run off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I take it that he would have reported to you then that he'd been injured by one of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: With a sharp instrument like a spear or an assegai?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was in the course of the efforts by you and he to divert or stop the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Inspector, just one or two concluding aspects I hope, at the inquest at one point you gave evidence that you were not able to give a definite "yes" or a definite "no" as to whether or not there was a reason for the ANC guards to have opened fire, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that's ...(indistinct)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: ...(inaudible) as to where the first shots came from?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So I think you will be able to confirm that once the crowd had pushed its way past you at whatever speed, it entered into that part of King George Street next to Shell House and again within a few seconds shooting broke out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: That the shooting was of a short duration?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: We've heard estimates in the region of 10/12 seconds, would that correspond with your assessment?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that would be approximately correct.

MR TIPP: And whilst the shooting was still going on, marchers were, had turned and were trying to get away, did you see that?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting had taken place the marchers moved down De Villiers Street in a western direction, and some of the marchers moved back to the corners.

MR TIPP: Inspector you're not answering the question that I put to you, I just want to know whether you were in fact in a position to observe this, that whilst the shooting was still proceeding, marchers were running back, trying to get away.

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't see that.

MR TIPP: You didn't notice that. Inspector, whilst there was shooting, on your version you were still in De Villiers Street, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting?

MR TIPP: No, sorry, whilst the shooting was still continuing.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, I was in De Villiers Street towards the east.

MR TIPP: Did you see or notice at all that there was firing from the side of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't notice anything.

MR TIPP: Could you from what you heard, were you able to tell whether or not such shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't say.

MR TIPP: You couldn't say. Just for - I'll leave it at that Mr Chairman. Again in the spirit that this is not a trial, I'm not going to begin to put versions in respect of matters. Thank you for the opportunity.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr van Reenen I would want your indulgence because I want to form a picture in my mind as to how the group was armed, and you of all the witnesses we've heard were very much close to this group. Would you just take a second of your time to describe to us the kinds of weapons that you saw amongst the group of marchers, because you were very close to them?

MR VAN REENEN: All that I saw was knobkierries, assegais, shields, sticks, that's all that I noticed among the group as such which was before me.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether there were any firearms amongst the group?

MR VAN REENEN: I saw no firearms.

MS KHAMPEPE: And when you say the group was toyi-toying, are you referring to a chant when you say they were toyi-toying as you approached them?

MR VAN REENEN: They didn't storm, they moved forward slowly as they usually would. They'd moved forward and backward, forward and backward, that is how the movement took place. They didn't storm at all, not at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any person who would have appeared to you to have been leading the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't see anybody at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether the group was marching in a very organized manner?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, they appeared as such. When they moved down King George Street from north to south, they appeared like that, they appeared to be very ordered.

MS KHAMPEPE: And would you say the order disappeared immediately after you were bumped out by them?

MR VAN REENEN: Well then I couldn't see what they were doing any longer at stage because I had given way and they had moved ahead. I couldn't tell you whether or not they were still toyi-toying or whether they stormed, I simply got out of the way in front of them. After they had crossed the intersection it is very difficult for me to say exactly how they had proceeded, because I had been pushed out of the way and I was already in De Villiers Street at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: You were so induced by fear after that incident that you were unable to observe what the marchers did after you were bumped out?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR LAX: You were asked earlier by Mr Tip whether you could see if the marchers were running away from being shot at while the shooting was happening, and you said you didn't see that.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Did you see whether they were running forward while the shooting was on the go?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't see anything.

MR LAX: You couldn't see anything at all?

MR VAN REENEN: No, when I moved into De Villiers Street I couldn't see whether or not they were storming or whether they were still moving forward as they had. They had already crossed the intersection, they had gone into King George Street and over De Villiers Street. I can't tell you whether or not they ran forward or ran backwards or whether they were toyi-toyi'ing.

MR LAX: You see because my understanding is that there was a big group of people and they pushed past you. Now I think you mentioned a figure of roundabout 500-odd people, more than that, is that right?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: For a group of that size to carry on moving into King George would have quite some time, for them to move into King George and for the end of that group to be finished, you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct, I agree.

MR LAX: You retreat into De Villiers Street, but you can still see the group moving down King George Street surely, at that point? In other words even the middle or the back of that group must have still been visible to you going into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: After the intersection I didn't look at them again, I moved to the side into De Villiers Street, I can't tell you.

MR LAX: So you didn't turn around and observe the group at all after that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You did say that your friend or your companion Greunen had been injured and you think, you said, he'd been injured with a spear?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't see the actual injury being inflicted, did you?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time you were armed I take it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Greunen was armed as well?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the possibility exists that he was stabbed at a time when he had a gun in his hand?

MR VAN REENEN: It's possible.

MR LAX: Sorry just one last thing, did it ever occur to you at any point to fire your own firearm as a warning shot to try and cause this group to disperse?

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't think of it at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I would likewise also like to point out just two extracts from the record and just ask the witness for his response.

Inspector, firstly I want to refer to the position of deceased and injured after the shooting incident. On page 205 of the record I will read the following extraction of your evidence, line 10, could you just find it, 205, line 10. Do you have it before you?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: It reads

"Well I's sought shelter on the eastern side in de Villiers Street itself. If you take de Villiers Street, that would have been in de Villiers Street on the southern tip because that's where I stood. The shooting had finished. I noticed that there were plus minus 20 people who were standing on the corner of King George, they were lying on the corner of King George Street, to the west"

With reference to that evidence could assist the Committee regarding exactly where the people would be lying, how far into King George Street, was it on the intersection, where?

MR VAN REENEN: It was in King George Street itself. King George Street from north to south and it was in King George Street already past De Villiers Street, approximately 10 to 15 paces into King George Street already. The people lay on the western side in King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that on the other side of Shell House, on the pavement?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: One of the Honourable Committee members asked you what firearms or whether you had seen any firearms amongst the crowd, you answered in the negative to that. I'd like to refer you to page 2056 of the record when it was asked to you whether or not you heard anybody fire shots from within the crowd. Could you please turn to page 2056, line 12. There advocate Matzke asked you about this specific aspect

"When you encountered the group on St George and de Villiers Street, did you hear any gunfire from the group of Zulus" --- "No, I didn't"

Do you stand with that evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I do.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that until the moment that you were bumped out of the way you heard no gunfire, and you were right next to the march? Up until that moment you heard no gunfire coming from the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Finally, you were asked about the injury of Sergeant van Greunen, who would have reported to you that he had been injured with some sort of short object, what was the nature of the injury?

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know on which side of his shoulder it was, it was on the back of his shoulder, there was a cut.

MR DORFLING: Did he receive any stitches or medical treatment for that injury?

MR VAN REENEN: As far as I know it wasn't very serious.

MR DORFLING: It would appear then that the person who had injured him had probably been behind him when he was injured, would you agree?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: As you sit here today Inspector, you have already indicated this in the inquest, that as far as you could see, and perhaps I could refer you to the page 2056, line 22 where the question was put to whether you could find any reason why shots were fired, your answer was

"no I can't tell you."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that still your evidence, as you sit here today could you find no reason within your own mind why shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I've just got a couple of questions to raise with the witness with your leave, thank you.

Mr van Reenen, just regarding the shooting incident, if you'll refer back to page 2055 before line 10, the piece after that you relate how you arrived there and then you say:

"Moments thereafter shots were fired"

Let's just place that in perspective, you said that you and Van Greunen were bumped out of the way:

"Van Greunen went west and I went east, moments after that shots were fired"

So there moments after you had been bumped out of the way in a western direction, the shots went off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Could I then also refer you to page 2107, at the top of the page from line 1

"What did you see when the shots were fired for the first time"? --- When I heard the shots I saw how the group of people on the western side began to fall"

Therefore moments after you had been bumped out of the way, the shots went off and when the shots went off you saw the people fall?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: In conjunction with my learned friend's question, inasfar as it was a shooting incident from within the group, you also confirm at other places such as page 2104 that there was no shooting from within the group, that is from line 10 and further, that is in relation to my learned friend Mr Tip's questions.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: As far as you know, you never heard any shots being fired from within the group?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And then, in conclusion, on that very same page there has been evidence given by the ANC guards, and it was also put to you that you indeed after you had tried to stop the group and they wouldn't give in to your appeal, you did not move away from the group but you actually ran back in the direction of the ANC, in fact you ran until you joined the ANC guards who were on the corner of King George's Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That is a false statement, van Greunen and I never ran back to Plein Street on the corner of King George Street, we moved down De Villiers Street, we never ran back to King George Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Constable van Greunen was with the group who had been shot where the people later fell?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR BERGER: No further questions for the witness thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gollach would you please come forward.

MR GOLLACH: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, it's me this time.

Sergeant Gollach, I want to take you very briefly to the first incident in Plein Street when there was a shooting down from the direction of Wanderers, do you recall that?

MR GOLLACH: Ja.

MR BERGER: The shots came from the direction of Wanderers Street and an ANC guard came to you and said that they were being shot at, the ANC guards were being shot at and as a result of that you went west down Plein Street in the direction of Wanderers Street to investigate, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You will also recall that after you had crossed Plein Street, I beg your pardon, King George Street, you said that you heard 2 to 3 shots from a handgun which was behind you, is that right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Not a shotgun?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: And you'll also recall that you were very frightened at that time, correct?

MR GOLLACH: I was rather nervous, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And you will recall what was put to you, I put it to you in fact, during the inquest. I had Mr Eddie Khumalo sitting next to me and he pointed out that you were the young policeman who had taken cover in Plein Street between King George and De Villiers and that you appeared to be very frightened and in fact you were shaking, and Mr Khumalo in fact came to assist you and to take you out of that dangerous situation.

MR GOLLACH: No, at that stage all of us, myself, Skippers, Potgieter and Van Reenen had crossed the intersection. I can't remember that he took me out of there, we all moved back to the intersection.

MR BERGER: Well you'll recall at the inquest you gave various answers to that question, but the very first answer that you gave when I put it to you that Mr Khumalo said that he in fact came and took you out of that dangerous situation, you said that

"It is possible that Mr Khumalo came to assist me"

Did you not?

MR GOLLACH: Is that in the record, if it is could you please refer me to it.

MR BERGER: Page 4214 and 4215 of the record. At the top of page 4214, well if I can just go to the bottom of 4213, I asked you

"You felt that you were in the middle of a dangerous situation, is that right?"

You answer:

"Ja."

Question:

"You were nervous, correct?

--- "That's correct".

"You were shaking, were you not?"

Answer:

"I can't recall"

Then I said to you:

"Mr Khumalo over here, I asked him to come to Court today to see if you are one of the two people that he spoke about who was shivering in Plein Street, nervous and unsure what to do, and he tells me that you are one of them."

And your answer:

"If it is as he says it is, it may be so. That is not how I experienced it. I would say that one was afraid, one knew where the shots were coming from but I wouldn't say that I was shaking"

Question:

"And at that - there were two of you, two young Policemen and that he feared for your safety, that he came and took you out of that situation and told you Commanding Officer not to send young plicemen into such a dangerous situation."

--- "That I can't recall, no"

And then after that the Court asked you certain questions and you said you couldn't remember. Then at 4215 when I said:

"Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come and take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation?"

You said:

"Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie sê dit is nie moontlik nie. Ek kan nie onthou dan enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg. Ek sal nie so sê nie, nee."

And then further on you say it wasn't possible; and then further on say it was possible, but the point that I'm putting to you is that when I first asked you, you said:

"Yes, it's possible"

MR GOLLACH: It could have been, but I don't think that's what happened, we all moved back. It could have happened, but that's not how I remember it subsequently.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend should just read on a few more lines where the witness's evidence is quite clear at page 4215, at line 10

"Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come to take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation. --- Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie sê dit is nie moontlik nie, ek kan nie onthou dat enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg. Ek sal nie so sê nie, nee."

And then by Court:

"Maar wat is daardie antwoord?"

And the answer:

"No."

That was the answer given by the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Yes, I said to the witness that he gave both answers and the first answer that he gave was the one that it is possible, and he's just confirmed now it is possible, but that's not the way he recalls it.

In that first incident, Sergeant Gollach, is it correct, this is the Wanderers Street incident, is it correct that the ANC guards that you saw were on street level, you didn't see any guards on the balcony level?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, I didn't see anybody up there.

MR BERGER: Then after that incident you moved back to the corner of Plein and King George?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were you standing with Sergeant Potgieter at that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, it was me and Sergeant Potgieter, and I think Sergeant Skippers as well.

MR BERGER: So you're saying there were three policemen on that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, I can remember seeing Sergeant Skippers there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: No, there was Potgieter, himself and Skippers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR GOLLACH: No Chairperson, Potgieter, Skippers and me.

MR BERGER: And you - did you see Sergeant van Reenen and van Greunen moving up King George Street towards the marchers in De Villiers Street?

MR GOLLACH: Yes Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You also saw Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greunen trying to keep the marchers away, from coming down towards where you were standing, correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You also saw that the marchers paid absolutely no heed, and knocked Van Reenen and Van Greunen out of the way?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't physically see him being bumped out of the way, I just saw the group continuing with their movement ahead, through Van Greunen and Van Reenen.

MR BERGER: What you saw is Van Reenen and Van Greunen being engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Mr von Eggedy, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Not from where I was.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were standing amongst the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: In fact you evidence was that you were right inbetween the guards.

MR GOLLACH: Among the guards, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You had a clear view of Van Reenen and Van Greunen running up the street and what was happening to them at the intersection?

MR GOLLACH: Up until that point, yes.

MR BERGER: And yet you never saw Von Eggedy at all?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't see him there.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that at the critical time you were actually not on that corner Sergeant Gollach?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I was on the corner.

MR BERGER: Were you on that corner when the guards on that corner opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: When the ANC security guard with the AK47 began to shoot I moved to the entrance because I saw that more guards were coming out, and I told people to move back because of the guards that were coming out. I was there just as the shooting began, just as the guard began shooting.

MR BERGER: Your colleague Constable Skippers saw one of the marchers coming down from De Villiers Street towards Plein in King George with an AK47, you didn't see that either?

MR GOLLACH: No, I didn't see that.

MR BERGER: According to your evidence the ANC guard with the AK47 fired, as you put it, a "sarsie skote". You said maybe 5 or a few more shots.

MR GOLLACH: It was only a few shots which he fired.

MR BERGER: You then went round the corner towards the entrance of Shell House; you went to look for Major Els, you couldn't find him; you then went up Klein Street, you came up again west in De Villiers Street to the corner of King George and De Villiers, am I right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street, am I correct?

MR GOLLACH: Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR GOLLACH: When I came back on the other side, Sergeant Skippers, he was in De Villiers Street. I didn't see Inspector van Reenen in De Villiers Street, I didn't notice him there.

MR BERGER: You were watching the crowd at the time that the ANC guards opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: I was chatting to the ANC guards all the time, then I saw the march move up through Van Reenen and Van Greunen. That's the last time I saw them.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that if they had attacked, and I can give you the words of Mr von Eggedy, if they had been brandishing their weapons on full charge in the manner of an attack, are you saying you might not have seen that?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I didn't see it like that.

MR BERGER: Thank you Sergeant, I'm done. Thank you Sergeant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MS KHAMPEPE: Sergeant, I don't know whether you actually understood the last question, would you have been in a position to have seen if the crowd was on full charge from where you were?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage they weren't storming. When they moved past Van Reenen and Van Greunen, that was the last time that I saw them, they weren't storming, they had just gone through the intersection, they weren't storming, they didn't come running, they were simply toyi-toying.

MR BERGER: Sorry Chairperson, if I may just ask two more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Sergeant Gollach. When you were standing at that corner, you never saw or heard any shot strike the window of the shop a few metres in front of you?

MR GOLLACH: No I didn't experience it that way while I was standing there.

MR BERGER: You never saw anybody fire any shots into the underside of the parapet on the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR GOLLACH: No, I also didn't experience it in that way.

MR BERGER: And you never saw any of the ANC guards fire warning shots?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Either into the air or into the underside of the parapet?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you very much.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR DORFLING: Thank you Chair. With your permission, may I just with reference to the witness's evidence in front of the inquest, refer the witness to page 4184 of the record from line 6 onwards. Sergeant I'm going to read you a piece of evidence, I'll read it paragraph by paragraph, upon which I would like for you to indicate to the Committee whether that evidence is correct or incorrect, and if it is incorrect, in what respect it is incorrect. This is with regard to the inquest. You refer on line 6, page 4184 to the position of the marchers when you saw them for the first time

"Waar was hierdie groep toe u hulle die eerste keer sien, hoe ver nog?"

--- "So 10 meter sou ek skat voor die kruising in King George en De Villiers aan die ander kant van die kruising."

You're referring to the northern side of the intersection on King George and de Villiers, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that paragraph correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Ja.

"Op hierdie stadium het Sersant van Reenen en Sersant Van Greunen vooruit gehardloop in King Georgestraat in die rigting van hierdie optoggangers? --- Ek self, Potgieter en Skippers, ek weet nie van ander lede wat daar was nie op die toneel. Het die kruising oorgesteek op die sypaadjie van Shell House, waar ons van die sekuriteitswagte gesien het wat daar bymekaar gekom het. Ek het gemerk dat Van Reenen en Van Greunen het vooruit gehardloop na die kruising toe waar hulle optoggangers ongeveer in die middel van die kruising probeer keer het, probeer wegwys het. Hulle het aangehou loop, die optoggangers, deur Van Greunen en Van Reenen. Op daardie stadium het die ANC wagte wat hier by ons gestaan het vir ons gesê dat hulle gaan skiet op hierdie optoggangers."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Can you firstly tell us how many guards there were? Approximately 10 or more, 10 tot 12, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING

"Waar was u op daardium stadium? --- Ek was reg tussen die wagte gewees op die sypaadjie, reg langs Shell House gewees, op die suid-westelike hoek."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING

"En as ek u sê hulle het gesê hulle gaan skiet, het almal gelyk gepraat, het een persoon gepraat? --- Nee, dit was - die spanning het hoog geloop. Die mense, die sekuriteitswagte het die heeltyd vir my gesê hulle gaan op die mense skiet. Ek het die heeltyd met hulle terruggepraat in Engels en gesê hulle moennie skiet nie, aangesien ek nie gedink het op daardie stadium dit is nodig dat hulle moet skiet nie."

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING

"En wat was u reaksie as u sê hulle moennie skiet nie? --- Dit was die heeltyd het hulle vir my gesê hulle gaan skiet. Dit het vir my voorgekom asof hulle baie gespanne was en gereed was om te skiet. Ek het die gemoedere die heeltyd kalmeer, en vir hulle gesê om nie te skiet nie."

"Op daardie stadium toe u nou met hierdie wagte gepraat het, die groep wat nou in aantog was, het u enigiets agtergekom uit hulle houding uit, het u enigiets gehoor van daardie kant af? --- Nee, ek kon niks uit hulle houding opermerk. Ek weet nie wat u spesifiek bedoel nie, houdings soos in?"

"U sê u het nie gedink dit is nodig vir die wagte om te skiet nie, hoekom sê u so? --- Hulle het aangehou loop oor die kruising, getoyi-toyi in die sin van dans toyi-toyi, en ek het die laaste keer opgemerk toe hulle verby Van Reenen-hulle beweeg in die kruising, steeds waar ek die heeltyd met die ANC wagte probeer onderhandel het. Ek het nie daarna weer gekyk wat die houding was, en enigiets van dié aard nie, wat dit was nie."

"Goed, wat gebeur toe? --- Die ANC wagte wat op diehoek was waar ons gestaan het was gewapen met handwapens, en onder andere het ek een gesien met 'n AK47 geweer."

Is that evidence correct?"

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING

"Ja, die gemoedere het hoog geloop die heeltyd. Dit was spanningsvol en op 'n stadium het van die ANC wagte begin skiet op die optoggangers."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING

"Goed u moet probeer om soveel detail ten opsigte van dit aan die Hof te gee wat u kan onthou. Wie het eerste geskiet en wat het gebeur? --- Ek kan nie onthou wie van die wagte eerste geskiet het nie, maar wat ek wel kan onthou is dat die een met die AK47 het geskiet. Hy het op die grond gelê."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: I would just like to make certain that I understand your evidence correctly, are you saying that the first person who shot, shot from within the ranks of the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: From where I was standing, where the first shots were fired from was where I was standing with those people who I was with.

MR DORFLING: And then with reference to the man with the AK47

"U sê hy het op die grond gelê en in die rigting van die aankomende optoggangers geskiet? --- Ek het gemerk van waar ek staan dat nog wagte vanuit Shell House kom om te kom aansluit by hierdie groep wat hier gestaan het"

Is dit korrek?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING

"Ek het op daardie stadium het ek hulle teruggejaag of teruggestuur, ek het vir hulle gesê hulle is nie nodig nie, hulle moet teruggaan. Dadelik het daarvandaan afbeweeg na die hoofingang en ek het hulle teruggestuur in die gebou in, waarop hulle gereageer het. Hulle het teruggegaan."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that is correct.

MR DORFLING: Lastly page 4187, Sergeant, line 18 to 22

"Weet u hoe die skietery begin het? --- Ek weet nie hoe die skietery begin het nie, ek kan net getuig dan van die ANC sekuriteitswagte geskiet het, maar ek weet nie wie dit begin het nie. Ek het nie skote gehoor wat van ander plekke afgekom het nie, ek het net die skote gehoor wat hulle geskiet het."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: If evidence were to be placed before the Committee which would indicate that from within the crowds shots were fired from the ANC guards, or that that is the impression which was created while you were with the guards, what would your comment be?

MR GOLLACH: I did not notice anything like that, I did not hear any shots coming from the crowd from where I was standing.

MR DORFLING: According to you evidence as I understand today, the first shots which you heard were fired in your immediate environment?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Sergeant, you also confirmed with my learned friend Mr Berger, that when the shooting incident began you moved away from the corner?

MR GOLLACH: When the guard with the AK47 began shooting I moved back to the front, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: The shooting continued thereafter, but you moved away from it?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave, may I just ask one question to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VAN WYK: Thank you. Sergeant, I would like to know, that you mentioned earlier in that morning you were monitoring the radio, and that you went to the corners of Jeppe and Vermeulen Streets?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR VAN WYK: You received a report that there was a person who was shooting at some of the marchers from within a building?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, Inspector van Reenen was already on the scene.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: Sergeant following from the questions which have been posed by Mr Dorfling, I just want to know, when this ANC security guard told you that they were about to shoot, was it after both Sergeant van Greunen and Van Reenen had been engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: I can't say with certainty where they were at that stage. I can't say at which stage that took place, I can't even recall.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE NGCOBO: How long do you need to call Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, provided that I can see Mr Mhlaba tomorrow morning ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes we understand that, but how much time do you need to be able to call Mr Mhlaba, I think that's what we want to establish.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, how much time you need to find him? You've had enough time to find him.

MR DORFLING: We've trying to get him here tomorrow morning Mr Chair. I can't give an undertaking that he would be here, we're trying our best. Mr Chair, may I just seek your guidance. The witness Sergeant van Greunen is also present. He has been subpoenaed for today. Is there a need for him to attend tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there questions you wish to put to Greunen as well?

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chairman, briefly, we will not detain the Committee long.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now ...

MR VAN GREUNEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR TIPP: Sergeant van Greunen, you've been listening to the evidence and you've seen what the process is. We just want to highlight one or two aspects of what happened at Shell House insofar as it concerns you.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if you want to answer in Afrikaans, you've heard the ruling, you're very free and welcome to do so.

MR VAN GREUNEN: No it's not a problem.

MR TIPP: Whatever suits you. Sergeant, you'd been at Shell House throughout the morning, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And was there at any time throughout your presence as a policeman there, any discussion as to what the police were to do in the event of a confrontation-situation arising?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: You were not briefed and you were not given any orders by your Commanding Officer, Major Els?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all, we were just told we're working in special digits that day.

MR TIPP: That's all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: And we know that at 10h30 the Regional Commissioner, General Calitz, gave an order as a matter of priority that Shell House was to be cleared, you heard nothing about such order and you saw nothing being done to give effect to it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, at about 10h45, the Committee has already heard the evidence, I'm just going through it to put you in context, there were some shots down from the area roughly of Wanderers Street, apparently from some marchers and a number of policemen went off in that direction to investigate.

MR VAN GREUNEN: I don't know about the policemen who went to investigate about a shooting in Wanderers Street at that time.

MR TIPP: Well let - I'm not going to waste time on it, but you gave evidence at the inquest that at about 10h45 you heard a few shots and you moved west to the corner of King George and Plein Street, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And roundabout 11h00 shortly before the main shooting, the shooting that we're all concerned with, you heard other shots there in the vicinity of Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And your state of mind at that time, one couldn't tell precisely where they were coming from or what was happening, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you yourself were very tense and nervous?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that is before the large group of marchers that you saw even came into your sight?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Generally Sergeant, the atmosphere there was one of tension and a sense of emminant peril, would you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I agree.

MR TIPP: And that that is something that the ANC personnel there would also have shared from your observation there?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, we were all tense.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, you've of course heard already me raise with Inspector van Reenen the apparently strange circumstance that two police officers, you and now Inspector van Reenen ran up to stop the crowd, you saw a group of 500 coming from De Villiers Street and round the corner into King George, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in fact you gave evidence at the inqest that you'd looked up towards up King George Street in the direction of Noord Street and you hadn't seen a large group from there at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And we know in fact that there was one group from De Villiers Street and another from King George Street.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now all that I'm putting to you is that the strange circumstance of so large a difference in observation in respect of groups of 500 is to be accounted for, because the events happened so fast and because they were really very frightening from beginning to end, would you agree with that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would agree.

MR TIPP: You yourself, as you were moving up with then Sergeant van Reenen to try to stop the group from coming on, you felt afraid for your own safety?

MR VAN GREUNEN: You could say I was cautious and I was afraid, although it was part of the duty to try and stop the conflict before it happens.

MR TIPP: It's not for me to compliment you, but it must have been a very difficult situation for any policeman, and an act of courage to move in that direction at all, but be that as it may, I'm just going to refer you to your evidence, I can read it if necessary, if you don't recall it Sergeant, you just say so, but you gave evidence that as you approached the marchers you felt that you were in danger, you didn't know how the Zulus would react to you approaching them and you didn't know what was going to happen there. Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And also it was a dangerous situation because you had, as you put it, the Zulus with traditional weapons on the one side and the ANC with firearms on the other side?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And the potential for conflict was clear to you at that time?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: Also at the time, is it correct that the possibility had crossed your mind that these marchers might in fact try to press their way into Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At that stage I didn't really think about that at that time, all I thought about was trying to get the people to move in a different direction other than coming up in King George Street.

MR TIPP: Perhaps you can just explain one, a couple of lines from your evidence.

Mr Chairman at page 1986, line 13 to 17.

You have your record there Sergeant, I think. I'll just read it to you. You'd given reasons why you at one stage of your evidence had said that you could see no reason why there had been shooting on the marchers, and one of them was that the building, Shell House, had according to you, correctly or not is unimportant now, but you had believed that it had bulletproof doors, do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, ja.

MR TIPP: And I then asked you at line 13 on that page

"Kan 'n mens daarvan die gevolgtrekking maak dat hoewel ten tye van die voorval opgeval het dat die optoggangers miskien sou probeer om binne-in Shell House in te druk?"

And your answer was:

"Dit kan moontlik wees."

And I asked you again:

"Moontlik?"

And you said: "Ja."

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, Sir.

MR TIPP: And do I understand that bit of evidence correctly then that "ten tye van die voorval", at the time of the incident, that possibility had crossed your mind?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now we already know Sergeant that you, as did Inspector van Reenen, both of you were in uniform as you approached the on-coming marchers, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Police uniform, a regulation blue uniform?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were both openly carrying arms, in fact you were carrying a shotgun.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And it was perfectly visible to people as you approached them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: It was also absolutely clear to them that you police officers wanted them not to proceed further south down King George Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Notwithstanding that, you were knocked out of the way by them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in the course of that you were injured by a spear or an assegaai, fortunately not a serious injury?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: But nevertheless Sergeant, it was an injury caused by someone who was aggessively pushing you out of the way, so that he and his fellow, the fellows in the group could move on to where they wanted to go?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: The general bearing of that group, the one that gave you cause for alarm about your safety, was one of aggressiveness, do you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At first it didn't seem as aggressive. I guess when we tried to stop them, they probably just wanted to show us, listen we're gonna carry on up the street, and that's it.

MR TIPP: Well at that moment, that's the critical moment really, at that stage was it clear to you that their conduct was in fact aggressive?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Ja, I felt that way, ja.

MR TIPP: Yes. And when you were knocked to one side you ended up with your back against the burglar-bars of the window of the Woburn Pharmacy, which is on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street opposite Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And while you were there, members of this crowd were still knocking you aside as they moved past you?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was also your evidence. And like Inspector van Reenen, you regularly in your evidence in the inquest used the phrase

"uit die pad uit gestamp"

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And they had in fact proceeded, the front of the group in your estimation at the time, had proceeded some 5 or 10 metres past the pharmacy when shooting broke out.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Is it also correct, and you gave a graphic description Sergeant, that members of this crowd then were trying to flee, some were falling, whether they had been struck by gunfire or were simply taking cover, you did not know but while that was happening gunfire continued.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you, to get out of the scene of that conflict, then ran around the corner into De Villiers Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is also correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, just one moment.

Just in conclusion Sergeant, and again if necessary I can refer you to passages, if you're not certain then I'll do so with pleasure, but you'll remember that in the course of the inquest you were asked whether you could say positively where the first shots came from. At some points in your evidence you said that you couldn't say where the first shots came from; at other points in your evidence you said they came from your right-hand side, from the direction of the ANC. Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And as you sit there today, would it be fair to say that you really, you are not confidently able to state under oath where those first shots came from?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember also Sergeant, although there's nothing in your statement to this effect, in fact nothing about Shell House really at all, at one stage you said that you had heard one of the ANC people on the corner say something like the following "let's kill some Zulus, they are going to attack Shell House", do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I remember that.

MR TIPP: And you also remember that at other points in your evidence you accepted that perhaps it hadn't happened at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: It's ...

MR TIPP: Would you like me to refer you it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes please.

MR TIPP: Yes, I'll do so.

Mr Chairman at page 1990, just to put it in context Mr Chairman, the Committee will see that at page 1989 I raised in cross-examination the question of this statement, I'm not going to read it. At page 1990, line 1 the Court asked:

"Wel is u seker dit het gebeur, of maak u miskien 'n fout, want soos ek verstaan, sekere van daardie persone wat daar was, vennaam ANC lede, hulle gaan sê dit het nie gebeur nie, niemand het dit gesê nie. Is u seker, of is u nie seker nie, maak u 'n fout?"

And your answer:

"Ek weet nie of die ander Polisiemanne wat saam met my daar was die opmerkings gehoor het en dit in hulle verklarings geskryf het nie, dan sê ek maar eerder ek is nie seker daar nie."

Right?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: At there are a few other, at line 12 you said "so sê maar liewer ek is nie seker nie." At line, approximately 16, you said

"goed, ek is dan nie seker nie."

At line 19 you said:

"Ek sal sê ek kan dit onthou"

You went back to saying "well I can remember it." And then at line 27 I asked you, I pointed out:

"Daar's geen melding van so 'n opmerking in u verklaring nie"

And then your answer was:

"Dan dra ek nie kennis nie."

And there are one or two other such references.

Again, as you sit there Sergeant, we're not running a trial, as you sit there, are you confidently able to state under oath that you definitely heard such a remark, or are you not sure?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'm not sure, Sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

JUDGE NGCOBO: Where would you have obtained the information regarding those remarks from?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1990.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Did you hear those remarks or didn't you hear them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'd say no, I didn't hear those remarks, Sir.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He says that he didn't hear.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just one or two aspects. Mr van Greunen did you ever see a firearm amongst the crowd, the Zulus?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Negative.

MR PRETORIUS: When the shooting started, you described it at 1987 further as a "volley of shots" that started firing whilst you were standing with you back against the pharmacy, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Sir.

MR PRETORIUS: And that is then that you also experienced the people falling down around you, you can't say whether they were shot or not, but they were felling down around you, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr van Greunen, would I be correct in saying that amongst the portion of the crowd that you saw, you didn't see a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

MS KHAMPEPE: But you would be unable to say whether of the approximately 500 members who constituted that crowd, none of them had a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I didn't see any firearms amongst the crowd.

MS KHAMPEPE: Of the portion that you saw?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Of the portion that I saw, that's right.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you telling us that of the crowd that you saw, the entire crowd, because the evidence that is before us is that you were able to observe that the crowd consisted of approximately 500 members, am I correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. Would I be therefore correct that you didn't observe 500 members and you would be unable to say, of the 500 members that you saw, at least initially observed, you would be unable to say if none of them carried any firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would be unable.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate, I've had word about the one gentleman that tried to locate the witness and as at 16h30 this afternoon we weren't able to locate Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if he's not here by 09h30 tomorrow morning we will proceed without him.

MR DORFLING: I would urge the Committee to consider obtaining the availability of Mr Mhlaba. We're trying our best to locate him. He had an appointment with me last week and it was arranged for the purposes of him here but I'm just having difficulty to locate him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I'm not making a decision just now but I'm tempted to say that if we can't trace him by tomorrow morning then we'll have to proceed with the inquiry without him.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When last was Mr Mhlaba seen?

MR DORFLING: I spoke to him in person on the last occasion when we took the adjournment.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Oh I see, okay. But does he work in Johannesburg, do you know?

MR DORFLING: He was unemployed at that point in time as far as I was aware.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, okay. Was he informed that he would be required to come and give evidence today?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, I made an appointment with him to see me last week for purposes of adducing his evidence in this week, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, thank you, very well.

CHAIRPERSON: The appointment was not made by you personally, but through somebody else?

MR DORFLING: No, no, I personally arranged with Mr Mhlaba to come and see me last week Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I saw him in person at the time of the last adjournment and I at that occasion arranged for him to come and see me last week and ever since he didn't turn up. We have trying to locate him.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is there any - do you have any other witness that we might be able to hear perhaps in the absence of Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: From my side I've got no further witnesses.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What about your colleagues?

MR PRETORIUS: We've got no witnesses we'd like to call, but all I'm going to submit is just some further pages by Mr du Plessis of the ballistic experts. Honourable Chairman and Committee members would recall that my learned friend, Mr Berger submitted certain pages but not the full report, and there's just a few pages in addition to that which I would like to submit.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, may I just reverting to Mr Mhlaba indicate that on the last occasion when I saw him, the date for this hearing hadn't been fixed, that's why we only had an arrangement to see each other prior to the hearing and unfortunately I couldn't fix a date because I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, I'm now going to adjourn and we'll resume at 09h30 tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION: 04.08.98 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Before the commencing of evidence I'd just like to place on record the tragedy suffered by Ms Ramula Patel, the leader of evidence. She received news last night that her mother had passed away after a short illness, and she had to leave early this morning. We're sorry that she's had to meet this kind of difficulty and my Committee will be conveying our sympathies to her and to the other members of her family.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman we would like to place on record our sadness about the announcement of this event. She is a person who has been of tremendous assistance to all of us in making documents available and always being available and we associate ourselves with the remarks that you have made.

MR DORFLING: Could we likewise on behalf of the objectors convey our sympathies to the family and bereaved ones.

MR PRETORIUS: From our side we'd like to convey our sympathies as well.

There's just one further thing, Ms Patel assisted us by making available to us her copy of the record so that we could make copies of that last night, on the understanding that we return it to her this morning. We've indeed got the copies here, her copy here to be returned to her but unfortunately we can't return it to her now in view of the circumstances. May I request from the Chair to indicate to us to whom we can return it so that it can eventually find its way to herself.

CHAIRPERSON: At the conclusion of these hearings you can bring them over to me and I will see to it that it reaches her. Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dorfling your witness is ready?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so Mr Chair. I beg leave to call Mr Bafana Gonzweize Mhlaba. The witness will be giving his evidence in the Zulu language, Mr Chair.

BAFANA GONZWEIZE MHLABA: (Duly sworn in, states)

EXAMINATION BY MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Mhlaba you were born in 1957, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: You were brought up in the Zulu culture, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Do you still adhere to Zulu tradition and Zulu rituals?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Have you undergone any formal schooling?

MR MHLABA: I didn't attend school.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were residing at the Mansfield Hostel in room no E7, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Presently you are unemployed, were you employed at that stage?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I worked.

MR DORFLING: Now there was a planned Zulu gathering at Library Gardens on the 28th of March 1994, did this come to your knowledge?

MR MHLABA: I was told by our team leader or our Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR DORFLING: What were you told by Mr Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Mbatha told us that there is an imbezo, a meeting, where the King will be present and that will be in town.

MR DORFLING: Was any venue in specific mentioned to you?

MR MHLABA: They said we will meet at the place he said, the garden, Library Gardens.

MR DORFLING: Did you at that stage know where the Library Gardens were situated?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know the place personally.

MR DORFLING: How were you going to find your way there?

MR MHLABA: Mr Mbatha was to direct us.

MR DORFLING: Is that Induna Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can you describe the events of the morning of the 28th of March 1994? I want you to start at the hostel, how you found your route to town and what happened.

MR MHLABA: Yes, I can explain before the Committee. I don't know whether I can continue?

MR DORFLING: Yes, please continue.

MR MHLABA: On that particular day as we were informed earlier before the day, on the 28th we were called as usual by a clock. On our arrival the Induna took us into a train. At the Mansfield Station we went in and we got into the train and we departed.

MR DORFLING: The people that boarded the train, were they residents of the Mansfield Hostel?

MR MHLABA: Yes, but I will not know because we find some other people waiting at the station, they might be people from outside.

MR DORFLING: Fine you may proceed, you then boarded the train, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The train pulled out, we were happy until we arrived at Park Station.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened at Park Station?

MR MHLABA: When we arrived at Park Station, those who were in the front coaches, as we were in the middle coaches, they went out of the train while our group went out following them.

MR DORFLING: Were you divided into two groups at that stage?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't remember if there were more that two, but I would say ... (no further English translation)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, there are some technical problems.

MR DORFLING: Can I for the convenience of the Interpreter just perhaps repeat the question. Were you divided into two groups at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I have explained, when I alighted from the train there was one group infront of us, I was in the second group myself. I won't be able to say if there was a third or another group.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, when you got out of the station, you yourself in the group in which you were in, did you meet with the second group? Did you meet the second group to form one group?

MR MHLABA: When we went outside we didn't combine to form one group, we just followed each other.

MS KHAMPEPE: "We just follow each other", you mean going to the same direction, the same ..(indistinct)?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you have anybody in particular leading your group?

MR MHLABA: Nobody was an Induna in our group, the Induna was in front, however there were marshals who controlled us, or the chorus leaders.

MR DORFLING: If you say the Induna was in the front, was that in the front of the first group in other words, to leave the station?

MR MHLABA: Yes, he was infront of the first group.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened as you come out of the station?

MR MHLABA: Out of the station we saw our brothers who were being turned back from a direction which we were supposed to proceed. Our brothers were stopped by the police and we were told that we should turn to the left and use that street to the left. We followed them.

MR DORFLING: You are referring to you "brothers", are you referring to the first group or to other people?

MR MHLABA: I'm talking about the first group which was in front of us.

MR DORFLING: You explained that they were turned back, and then later you explained they were asked to turn left, can you just explain what exactly happened?

MR MHLABA: The truth is I didn't say they were turned back, I said since they were in front of us they were told that they shouldn't take the turn out from the Park Station, they should take the left turn and take the road from the Park Station, not that they should go back but they should turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, did your group follow that group?

MR MHLABA: Yes we followed them, the group that was told to turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The group in front of us proceeded to the left and we followed it. It was on a certain street they took a turn, I will say it is the second street, they turned to the right, and we were following them. There were some sounds of explosion and I didn't know from which direction they were coming from.

MR DORFLING: Can I just interpose here Mr Mhlaba. Do you know the street names?

MR MHLABA: I don't know them.

MR DORFLING: Okay, you mentioned that the first group at the second street turned to their right, you followed them and then there was this sound of explosions, what do you mean by that?

MR MHLABA: Since we're behind them and we didn't take a turn we heard explosions but we didn't know where they were coming from, we were still far back.

MR DORFLING: If you say an explosion, is it like a bomb or something else?

MR MHLABA: The sound of guns or rifles.

MR DORFLING: Could you at that point in time determine from where these gunshots were coming?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I will not be in a position to explain as to where the sound was coming from because I was right inbetween the buildings.

MR DORFLING: You've mentioned that the first group turned right at the second street, did your group follow them?

MR MHLABA: Yes we also turned right and on the second street they turned and that's where we came to meet them to form one group.

MR DORFLING: I just want to make sure we understand you correctly, so as you were directed to go left at the station you proceeded over one street and at the second street the first group turned to their right, and your group followed them, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And what happened then?

MR MHLABA: When we met them and form one group, as I've explained, we met them at that turn and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: If you say "you met them at a turn", what do you mean?

MR MHLABA: As we're following each other and they were in front of us, we found them standing as we're coming from behind, so we met them there and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: Mr Mhlaba I want you to explain, you said you found them and met with them at a turn, can you just explain that please?

MR MHLABA: When I say we met them in Zulu, as I've explained we were following each other, when someone come to a stop and you came to that place, it means we met, it means we are no longer following each other.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you briefly explain yourself. I would like you to explain to me that at the time when you were still following each other, the other group was in front of you, was it at any stage did you ever went a different direction, took a different street, or were you walking on the same street?

MR MHLABA: We were on the same street but we were not close to each other. I will say that we're about some few paces from each other but on the same street.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you say there was a time where you came to meet each other, did you mean that those in front came to a stop and they waited for you to arrive at the same spot?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they stopped for us so that we can meet and form one group to go together.

MR MHLABA: Was it not because you took different roads?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: That was the clarification that was needed.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose for a second, you said you met them at a turn, and I understood Mr Dorfling to ask you, "what do you mean by at a turn"?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, Mr Chair.

MR MHLABA: I didn't say we met at a turn, I said we took a turn on the second road or street and just before there's the intersection, they stop and waited for us. So I would say that's an intersection, a four-way stop.

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted to the Committee members, thank you.

What happened then?

MR MHLABA: We left as one group and there was Mr Mbatha as one of the marshals controlling the crowd, and that's where the shooting started. It looked like they were inside the building. They shot at us and we turned to run away. When I turned to look back I saw one of my colleagues or my friend injured.

MR DORFLING: Can we just stop there for a moment Mr Mhlaba. I would like you to go slowly and explain everything that you saw on that day. Can we first just go back at the time when you were together at the intersection, the two groups. Just before the shooting commenced, what were you doing?

MR MHLABA: We were shouting our Zulu - it's a tradition praise song, shouting in Zulu "amandla", ...[indistinct] as power to us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: No, no, Mr Interpreter, the witness was saying "uSotho", not "amandla".

MR DORFLING: With your leave Mr Chair I would ask the witness to get up from where he's standing and perhaps just give a description of the movement that was taking place at that point in time and the words that were uttered, with your leave.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Can I perhaps ask the witness to come to the front somewhere here to just make it visible to all of us.

MR MHLABA DEMONSTRATES AS REQUESTED

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Witness describes a movement forward and with every two steps a short step backwards, but at each time he moved his right arm was raised above his shoulder when he repeated the words "Amandla Awetho" and the word "Usotho".

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted for that Mr Chair. A further significant which I would perhaps like to place on record if the Committee is in agreement with that, is that the one foot is constantly leading, the one foot remains behind the other. A step forward, either the left foot or the right foot leading at the time of the forward movement and it remains the same foot that's leading.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that?

MR BERGER: There's no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR DORFLING: What is the significance of this movement and these utterances Mr Mhlaba? What does it mean?

MR MHLABA: It means that we, according to the Zulu tradition, when we are happy or celebrating to a function, it's always our tradition that we should do it step by step while shouting the praises.

MR DORFLING: I note that you say whilst shouting the praises, are the words you used actually praise words?

MR MHLABA: I'm not understanding, I'm not getting the full understanding of what you are saying. I would like a clarification.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you mentioned that this is always the way we do things when we're shouting the praises, that's the way it was translated. I'm trying to ask you or to convey to you that you should try and explain that to the Committee. These praises you're referring to, are those the words you used, are those praise words?

MR MHLABA: I would say those are the words that we use to celebrate when we're celebrating. When we are going to an Imbizo, a traditional meeting or whatever meeting called in the community to meet the King.

MR DORFLING: Are there words you uttered, are these words you uttered and the movements you made on that day any different from what you would do during other gatherings on behalf of ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling, just a minute. Did you say that ...(no English translation)

MR MHLABA: ...(no English translation)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Ja okay, you said these words are the words that you normally use when you are to meet Zulu?

MR MHLABA: I mean when we're having meetings.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But not to meet the King?

MR MHLABA: I would say the meeting of the Zulus is when we're asked to meet the King or a Chief, we use the same words. We always do it in the name of the King.

MR DORFLING: You were doing this movement and uttering these words at the time when the shooting commenced. Can you describe in detail what you saw yourself, not what you were told by anybody else, what you yourself observed when the shooting commenced?

MR MHLABA: I would say the truth is, when we started chanting together as a group they started shooting at us. We didn't continue forward, we ran backwards. Some of our friends didn't manage to escape because when I turned back, I realised that one of our friends was injured from the back and he was bleeding.

MR DORFLING: Before you attended to this friend of yours, can you describe whether you say anybody shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Yes I did see the people who were shooting. I can't remember the number but they were under the building. There were some on top of the building, about three of them who were shooting at us, shooting from above. I saw them while trying to help the injured brother.

MR DORFLING: Can I again ask you to just take it step by step. The people that you saw, as you call it: "under the building", would you describe exactly where you saw them.

MR MHLABA: In front of us, towards our direction where we're going, the direction in which we're proceeding.

MR DORFLING: Were they down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR DORFLING: Were they further down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were on the same street, right in front of us. I wouldn't say down or up the street but they were really on the same street, just before us.

MR DORFLING: Now you were at that point in time, roughly at an intersection you've described?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now how far ahead of you did you see these people, just roughly? If you can perhaps with reference to a building or a street indicate where they were positioned.

MR MHLABA: I would say from where I am they will be on the opposite building, on the other side, I will say referring to Small Street, just to the other building after passing Small Street.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would venture to suggest in the region of 50 metres perhaps from where the witness is sitting to the other side of the Small Street Road so to speak, just outside the church.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Not very clear views, but we'll accept that as a rough figure Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: You've described the people in that direction, did you yourself see any of them shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Some of them whom I saw, there were those who were on top of the building which we were to pass, it building in stones. They were standing on top of the building and they were shooting at us. That was the last time I saw the people who shot at us.

MR DORFLING: Can we just go back to the first person or persons that you saw shooting in the direction of the crowd, who are they and where were they positioned?

MR MHLABA: I wouldn't be able to say who they were, they were dressed in white clothes. I don't know how many there were.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba in your evidence you have talked about two different people, there were those who were in front of you and there were others who were shooting from the top of the building?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Your lawyer is trying to find out exactly who were the first between these two groups to shoot at you. Were they the people who were right in front of you or whether they were the people on top of the building who started shooting.

MR MHLABA: I would say the people who first shot at us, they were the people who were right in front of us.

MR DORFLING: Now can we go through it step by step and just take it slowly Mr Mhlaba. You see the people in front of you, they shoot in the direction of the crowd, what do you do? Just slowly, step by step.

MR MHLABA: When they started shooting at us we turned back and ran.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR MHLABA: While we were running back, not all of us managed to escape the shooting, as we were running back, those from the top of the building, they also started shooting at us. They shot one of our friends, and I tried to help him, and that's where I got shot too, while trying to help him.

MR DORFLING: Can you again just describe in detail, you say a friend of yours got shot, did he fall down, did he remain upright?

MR MHLABA: He got shot and he fell, because when I turned back as I was running, I found that he was bleeding from the back and when I tried to tried to remove the jersey to find out where the wound was, that's when I got shot.

MR DORFLING: Can you just describe your own position when you were hit by the bullet, were you at that point in time upright or what was your position?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was kneeling, I was just bending, and he was lying on the ground. I was just to pull up his jersey to see how he was injured, and I got shot at that time and I fell next to him.

MR DORFLING: I saw you actually getting up from your chair, you were bending forward with you upper body, is that right? Were you bending over the injured person?

MR MHLABA: Yes, what do you mean when I was bending forward?

MR DORFLING: You bent your upper body over the man.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: And you've indicated that this was the time when you were struck by a bullet. Can you please indicate where you were hit?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Yes, where were you hit by the bullet?

MR MHLABA: I was shot here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: As it pleases the Committee Mr Chair. What happened then Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: The police arrived and they tried to push me to the corner of the intersection. All I could remember seeing, I saw the things and after I fell I didn't see anything except the police coming to come and help us, and they took me into an ambulance.

MR DORFLING: At the time when you got shot, did you carry anything with you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I was holding a stick, a shield and a spear.

MR DORFLING: Mr Interpreter did the witness the word "uboko" and "induko"?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Sharpened stick.

MR DORFLING: Yes, I would just like your guidance Mr Committee members, I picked up two words "induko" and "uboko".

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: No, I think all the words were right, but I think I've just got one word missing. "Induko" and "uboko".

MR LAX: "Induko" is a stick Mr Dorfling, it's a ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: I'm made to believe that "uboko" is also a stick, just a longer stick. Maybe we can ask the witness.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Mhlaba just repeat, tell us what did you carry on the previous question.

MR MHLABA: I was holding a shield, a "boko", it's a long stick which has a tail. On the other side I was holding a knobkierrie, on the other side there was also a spear.

MR DORFLING: Did you at the time when the shooting started, did you become aware of any firearms being discharged from amongst the group of marchers where you were positioned?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see any firearm among those people in front of me.

MR DORFLING: Did you become aware of anybody discharging a firearm in your vicinity? Amongst the marchers in other words.

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before the Committee, I didn't see anyone holding a firearm. I didn't see anyone with my eyes.

MR LAX: Did you hear anyone firing a firearm around you? I think that's what Mr Dorfling is also trying to ask you.

MR MHLABA: The way this shooting happened, even if there was someone shooting just beside you, you wouldn't be able to detect that because there was a lot of noise.

MS KHAMPEPE: The noise you're talking about, is it the noise of your chanting or was it the noise that was caused by the shooting?

MR MHLABA: This was a noise of the shooting. There were firearm crackings coming from all directions I would say, you couldn't say from which direction the shooting's coming from.

MR DORFLING: And can I just determine from you, immediately prior to the shooting starting, prior to you observing the people in front of you that fired in the direction of the crowd, was there any shooting from amongst the Zulu marchers at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, the shooting started when Mr Mbatha was telling us we shall now continue as one group. It was when we met the first group to form one group.

MR DORFLING: Was there at that point in time any shooting amongst the marchers, that's what I'm asking?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear any shooting within us and I didn't see any shooting. I'm not saying there wasn't but I didn't witness such.

MR DORFLING: Now after you got injured that day, did you go to hospital, were you hospitalised for your injury?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I went to hospital. We were told that they can't help us because there were so many people who were so badly injured and we were told that we should wait for medical treatment.

MR DORFLING: And how long were you away from work?

MR MHLABA: I stayed about 3 months without work.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Mhlaba, if people were to come to this Committee and give evidence that the Zulu people, the marchers, were attacking the building or the personnel of Shell House, the people working there, and that's the reason why the Zulu people got shot at, what would you comment be to that?

MR MHLABA: I will deny that because I personally as a grown-up person, it was a peaceful march and when we got shot we were surprised.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions to the witness that you Mr Chair, Members of the Committee.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORLFLING

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Just one aspect please Mr Chair.

The way in which you moved and which you described to the Committee, is that the normal way that the Zulus move when they go to attend a peaceful meeting?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, that's our tradition.

MR PRETORIUS: Would it have been any different if you had for instance to war?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there will be striking difference, because when we're going to war we don't even talk to each other, we just walk and there is no chanting or singing, we just proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mhlaba you considered yourself at the time as one of the "Amabuto"?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: And when the amabuto move, do they move with discipline?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Is it the usual way of movement that every group is under charge of an Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, each group has to have its own leader or Induna. Even if it's not the Induna himself, there will be the assistant Induna.

MR TIPP: And the senior Induna in this case, Mr Mbatha, would see to it that each group was under the charge of a responsible Induna or someone else appointed to be in control?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: You know of course of Induna Kanyele?

MR MHLABA: Yes I know.

MR TIPP: Did you see him on that morning when the groups were forming up Park Station?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see him because those who were in front of us, we couldn't see them. We couldn't see, those were really in front of the first group because we could only see the people from the back on the first group.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, I'm talking about your group. Is it not so that Induna Kanyele was in charge of the second group that morning?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained, when we went out of Park Station in numbers, the one who was our leader - I wouldn't say we have a real leader, there were however marshals, and the person that I remember seeing in front of us was Mr Mbatha, and I didn't see Kanyele.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba these groups were large in number, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: In each of them there were several hundred members?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would say that's correct, even if I won't be able to give a specific number, be we were more than hundred.

MR TIPP: I'm not asking you for specific numbers. Now ahead of you there was a large group, and at the head of that there was the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I understood you to say a little while ago that the usual way of movement is that each and every group has someone appointed to be in charge and in control of that group.

MR MHLABA: My word is when we are going to a function we're normally accompanied by an Induna and the Induna has his own marshals who will control the crowd to make sure that they don't do things which are out our objectives, and as we march any member who is a little bit senior will always be in charge of controlling the marchers. It's not necessarily the Induna's who will always be conducting the crowd.

MR TIPP: Just tell us, was there a person in charge of your group?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was a person just like me, he was not an Induna just a respected member, so he was well versed when it comes to conducting those marches.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I think you've talked about - see what counsel is trying to find out from you is that there was the first group which was ahead of you and which was being led by Induna Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And then there was this second one in which you were, was coming from behind, and you said there were people who had been the Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was there any person who was acting as a leading who was walking in front of you?

MR MHLABA: I will say there was no-one who was acting as the leader, we were moving just as a group following the front group.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was Kanyele among the leaders?

MR MHLABA: Yes he was present, I would say he was one of the people who were acting as marshals directing the crowd.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In which group was he, was he in the second group or the first one?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was conducting part of our group, but he was not concentrating on our group, he will go forward and go back to see that we are proceeding accordingly. As he was patrolling there was another person on the other side controlling the crowd.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba is it correct that you are expected when you move in these groups, to remain in your groups, and that if for example the group at the front stops for some reason, then the second group will also stop, it doesn't simply proceed?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now where in your group were you, were you at the front or in the middle somewhere, or towards the back?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was in the middle, just in the middle, but I was not far from the front.

MR TIPP: Yes, is it also so that when groups of this nature move through cities like Johannesburg, that they are required and expected to obey police instructions?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct. When we walk in the city we'll have to follow the directions given by the police because we have a route which we have to follow.

MR TIPP: Well apart from the fact that you've got a route, is it something that is conveyed to you by your leaders, by your Induna's that if a policeman comes to a group with an instruction, that the group must obey him?

MR MHLABA: That's correct, we are usually instructed that wherever we go we shall follow the law and we shall listen to the law officers, and we shall listen to anyone who has authority to direct us to whatever place we are going to.

MR TIPP: So for example if you are moving with a group of "amabutu" and two policemen were to approach from the front and raise their hands and make it clear that you should stop, then you would normally stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, we have to stop. We have to stop and listen to what they want to say to us.

MR TIPP: Now Mr Mhlaba, if you were in the second group, and in the middle of the second group, were you still in that position when you turned - you took the right turn into the street where eventually the shooting took place?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR TIPP: Certainly. Let me take it in pieces, Mr Chairman. You've told us that you were somewhere in the middle of your group, not very far from the front, were you still in that position after you had taken the right turn into the street where the shooting took place?

MR MHLABA: I would say after getting out from the Park Station I wasn't far to the front. We took a turn to join the other group ...

MR TIPP: My question Mr Mhlaba, is whether you were still in that same position in your group after you had taken the turn, can you tell us?

MR MHLABA: Yes I was still in the same position.

MR TIPP: You then saw the front group come to a stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were already standing.

MR TIPP: Now was this something that was arranged, that you would then joint them and form one group?

MR MHLABA: I would say this was not arranged, but we just saw Mr Mbatha stopping there and calling the second group to join them, that's how we came to meet with them.

MR TIPP: Can you just describe that for us in detail? Mr Mbatha was in the front of a large group that was in the front of your group, did you in fact see him give instructions that you were all to form one group?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear him personally speaking, as we were far behind. I will try to demonstrate - that's how we come to a stop and wait for others. We normally kneel and wait for the others. As we saw them in that position, we signalled that they were stopping. I could see that he was calling us by his hand.

MR TIPP: So you personally saw quite clearly that the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha, was calling your group to merge with his group to form one larger group just in front of that intersection, is that what you're saying?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: What did you understand the reason for this merger to be?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know what was the problem, I thought maybe he wanted to make sure that we stay as one group. And we didn't know exactly - most of us didn't know where we were going, he was the only man who knew where we were going, so he wanted to make sure that we proceeded together as one group.

MR TIPP: Well up to that point there'd been no problems in the movement of the two groups as they went along the street, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: After the meeting of the groups Mr Mbatha instructed us to proceed, and that's where the shooting started.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I think perhaps my question was not clearly formulated, I'm going to put it again. As you moved in at least two groups from Park Station up to the point of that intersection, there had been no difficulties or problems with the movement in separate groups?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there were no problems.

MR TIPP: And I take it that the reason for breaking into smaller groups in the way that you did at Park Station as you moved through streets, is because it's easier to maintain control.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: See I'm going to suggest to you that this unusual development under the instructions of your senior Induna, that you form into one large group at this intersection, was so that you would form one large group for the purpose of carrying out an attack, and not for the purpose of moving further in the streets in the normal way.

MR MHLABA: I would like to with respect, deny that. It wasn't for the purpose of shooting because if it was the case of ...(indistinct) where we have to attack, we wouldn't put women in front. When we - our tradition is that when we go to fight, we normally put the men in front, and it would be men only, with women not involved.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I am regrettably not very well versed in Zulu tradition and Zulu culture, but perhaps you can tell us, "amandla aweto", are you saying that that forms part of a Zulu traditional praise song or praise chant?

MR MHLABA: I would say, put it clearly, any person, they don't have to be a Zulu-speaking person, people normally shout "amandla aweto", meaning power to us. This has originated from the Zulu tradition, so I would say that's the reason why we were shouting "power to us" and "we will win as one".

MR TIPP: And the cry or the chant "usotho" is, as I understand it, typically a battle-cry, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's not true. "Usotho" goes to explain that we are the Zulu nation. As you know, there is "mangosotho", it's a tradition that we are following as Zulu people.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, isn't it so that when traditionally and historically that when Zulu warriors went to war, that the typical battle-cry that accompanies them as an expression of their pride and their military prowess, was "usotho"?

MR MHLABA: I did not understand your word, you're talking about the soldiers of Kwa-Zulu, or the warriors or Kwa-Zulu?

MR TIPP: I'm speaking as best I can in historical and traditional terms of Zulu warriors, and that when Zulu warriors went to war, "usotho" would be their principal chant expressing their pride and their military strength as they attacked.

MR MHLABA: I never heard that when going to war the warriors would be singing songs or chanting slogans. I know that people prepare for the war and nobody will instruct them to be singing when going to war, because that would show the directions as to where they are from their opponents if they start singing.

MR TIPP: We'll move on Mr Mhlaba from that. You have described how your group on instructions from Induna Mbatha merged with the group in front, did you also see a group which was in the street on your right-hand side? In other words to the right of that very same intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say the only group that we met was the group in front us. I didn't see any group on the other side, I only saw one group, the one which was in front of us which we came to form one group.

MR TIPP: Just describe for us please, the process of forming one group, did you for example - or did your group simply merge at the back of the front group, or did you push your way through the front group to the front of it, what exactly happened there?

MR MHLABA: Those in front, as I've already demonstrated, the Induna have stopped them and he signalled by hand, telling us to come closer. While they were kneeling there we came near, and then we came to join them and we were told to stand up and proceed. That's what we did, and we continued as one group.

MR TIPP: Let me just put it in these words Mr Mhlaba, is what you are describing then a process where the gap between the back of the first group and the front of the second group, your group, was done away with, and that's all that happened?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we formed one group.

MR TIPP: Well is my description of it correct?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, that's how we met and formed one group.

MR TIPP: So you were never near the front of what had been the first group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I wasn't in front, as I've explained before, I was - in the second group I was just in the middle near to the front. Even when we managed to form one group, I was still in the middle of the one group. When we joined them we were from behind. I wouldn't be able to say how far from behind or from the front - I wouldn't be able to say who was in front and who was at the back at that time.

MR TIPP: I'm not sure what you mean by that Mr Mhlaba. Can I just put it to you again. In front of you there was a group with many hundred-strong under the charge of Induna Mbatha. Behind that there was a second group, you were in that group. As you approached the intersection, the front group was stopped and Induna Mbatha said become one group, and the front of your group went up to the back of the first group. Is that what happened?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And were you still on the - you yourself had not yet reached the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say even the other group, they haven't yet reached the intersection, we were all about to reach. When we came into the intersection we were now proceeding as one group.

MR TIPP: To be clear about that, the front of the first group had not yet reached the intersection at that stage, the stage when you became one group?

MR MHLABA: Yes they were not yet at the intersection, they were just near the intersection. They were just before the robot, they were not yet into the intersection, they were about to enter the intersection.

MR TIPP: Could you perhaps indicate to us here how far you were at that time from the front of the first group? In other words the very front of the now combined group.

MR MHLABA: Are you talking about the second group, how far we were, or you mean all of us combined as one group?

MR TIPP: You've told us that you became one group, correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now all I want is for you to indicate where you personally were, how far were you from the front of the group? In other words the front of what had been the first group. Do you follow?

MR MHLABA: Ja. I will estimate the distance as it - I will from the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter, it will be distance from where I am to the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter.

MR TIPP: About 20 metres Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's about 20 metres.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, we know that in that intersection there was a white man with long hair, a tall man, who circled in that intersection, calling on the marchers to stop. Did you see that person?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see the person.

MR TIPP: We know that his efforts were unsuccessful and that he was overrun when the group advanced and was in fact struck a number of times and injured. Did you notice anything of that sort happening?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I didn't see any person getting injured. I don't know, maybe one of those who were in front will have seen that, but myself as a person in the middle of the group, I didn't see anybody.

MR TIPP: You say that your group was just moving forward, or the entire group was just moving forward slowly and very peacefully?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Did you see two uniformed policemen approach the front of that group in a clear attempt to stop it and to divert it?

MR MHLABA: Where were these police standing?

MR TIPP: They came from the direction in which you were heading, straight towards the front of the group with their arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and making it clear that they shouldn't proceed further down that street.

MR MHLABA: I didn't see them.

MR TIPP: Well they have given evidence, they have explained that they were knocked aside by this group, one of them was injured as a result of being struck with a spear.

MR MHLABA: I would not deny that, but what I know is we were told that the police were there to protect us. I don't think all this happened, it might have happened another day where I was not present. It's possible that when you're in the middle of a group you might not be able to see what happens on the other side of the group.

MR TIPP: You see I'm putting it to you that those are not disputed descriptions of what happened, and I want you to explain as far as you can, how it can be that such incidents take place in respect of a group that you say is moving slowly and peacefully.

MR MHLABA: I am also asking the same question as to why were we attacked, because we were peaceful, no-one was provoking any person. And I'm asking the same question, why were we attacked, because I didn't see any problem amongst us as we were marching.

MR TIPP: Do you want me to repeat the question Mr Mhlaba, because I'm not asking you to ask questions, I'm asking you to answer them.

MR MHLABA: You can ask the question.

MR TIPP: Yes well let me put it again, and I'll put it more clearly. The white gentleman that I've referred to has given evidence, or evidence has been accepted given by him under oath, that he was beaten by members of the group in which you were moving who were charging forward waving weapons in the manner of people carrying out an attack. That evidence was given in the inquest, it was not challenged and it has been accepted here. Now what do you say about that?

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect, I do not want to interrupt unnecessarily Mr Chair, but the interpretation of Mr von Eggedy as to the movement of the crowd was specifically canvassed at the time of the inquest with him, and there was also specific interpretation given to that evidence by Mr Justice Nugent in his judgement. And I think if I recall correctly, specifically at page 137, in which Mr Justice Nugent made it quite clear that Mr von Eggedy's interpretation and the way he defined the movements was perhaps not that accurate, and to that extent that evidence is not accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: You can put what the evidence of Mr von Eggedy was, whether it was accepted by the inquest court or not.

MR TIPP: Yes, we'll deal with that in argument. I'll put it on that basis Mr Chairman.

Evidence was given by him that the crowd ignored his attempts to stop them, that they charged forward in the manner of people carrying out an attack, waving weapons, in the course of which he received a number of deliberate blows and was injured. Now you were in that crowd, what do you say about that evidence?

MR MHLABA: I personally I was with the group. I didn't see this white policeman getting injured from the position in which I was moving. I won't be able to know, maybe on the other of the group he might have.

JUDGE NGCOBO: From the position in which you were in this group, could you see the front of the group after the two groups had merged?

MR MHLABA: Yes, before we formed one group I could see the front but after the merging of the two groups I couldn't see what was happening in front.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The lawyer is telling you that there was evidence given that there was a white man who came to stand before the united, the one group which was formed, he was trying to give them instructions but however he got injured, he was attacked. He's saying the police also came to try to stop the group and you disobeyed them, is that true?

MR MHLABA: I would say I can hear what you're saying.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you say this group was proceeding peacefully and that some of the instructions given to you was that to follow people who were in authority, this means the policemen, how did it happen that this kind of incident could take place?

MR MHLABA: I would say that from my position as I was marching within the group, I didn't see any conflict or any problem as we were marching. I only met the problem when we started getting shot or one of us was injured.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, we do accept that you didn't see these things happening, however the lawyer wants to find out that when you say you were marching peacefully and you were listening to instructions from police, why was one of the policemen who was trying to stop you, you didn't obey them and one of them got injured?

MR MHLABA: I will have an answer to that, I will say I was not in front but from my own knowledge from the time when we were deployed we were told to go to the meeting, we were told that we should co-operate with the police. However I'm not going to deny that any police was injured while marching.

MR TIPP: Can we just sum up what you're in a position to say Mr Mhlaba, that you were never really in a position to observe what was happening in the front of the group or what people there were doing, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: Can you tell us in relation to the intersection, where were you when you tried to help your colleague who had fallen and when you got injured yourself, when you were struck?

MR MHLABA: It was right at the intersection, because this brother of mine fell on one side next to a pavement just after passing the crossing street and that's where I also fell after I was shot.

MR TIPP: So you personally had gone right across the intersection, do I understand you correctly?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we were already across the street, because after meeting this first group and we formed one group we are about to cross the intersection and few people managed to cross the intersection, the others were still at the back and they turned and ran back and we all dived on the ground and those who were able to run, they ran away.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm going to ask you please just to take it slowly, I'll try and put my questions as simply as I can. Were you personally across that intersection when you were struck, or had you not yet gone right across the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I had already crossed the intersection, I had just finished crossing the street, I was on the other side of the street.

MR TIPP: Now I take it, I would imagine that you've been back to that scene since the event?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't usually come to town. Since I got injured I'm staying at home in the township. I don't come to town that often and if I come to town I only come to the Commission and even today, that was the only time I'm coming here. I'm also afraid to go towards that direction.

MR TIPP: Let me just make it clear, even for the purpose of preparing this statement that has been put in by you in this Commission, you didn't go back to the scene to look at street names or to point out where you had been at various stages of the events?

MR MHLABA: As I've said, I can only describe as I'm sitting here as to how we moved during that day. After as I proceeding, jumping the first street ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Sorry, you're not answering the question, the question put to you was, as you are here now, did you get any chance to meet with your lawyers in preparation to give the evidence you are giving before the Commission? Did you get a chance to go and see the scene where these things occurred?

MR MHLABA: I did meet my lawyers as I'm here today, however we never went to that place.

MR TIPP: So you're still not able to assist us just with references to street names or anything like that?

MR MHLABA: Yes I don't know the name of the streets.

MR TIPP: You had crossed over the intersection, does that mean then that all the people who had been in front of you had gone into the street past the intersection?

MR MHLABA: Yes those who were in front of me, they've already crossed the street, and those from behind, they were still on the other side, they haven't yet crossed. It means only half the people who were in front managed to cross the street when the shooting started.

MR TIPP: And the portion of the street we're talking about is now the street right next to the building where you saw some people on the - I think you called it the roof, on the balcony, who were among those who fired shots?

MR MHLABA: Yes, it is the one that passed next to the building on this hand. It's on the other side of the building ...(as he's demonstrating, can't get a clear picture).

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm sorry, you're doing all sorts of pointing out on the table, I'm afraid it's not assisting anybody here. Mr Chairman I wonder, we'll put up a map and - a street-plan, I wonder if it might be an opportune moment, and we'll then continue on hopefully a clearer base.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman may I just indicate at this time, I went through the exercise of trying to plot the witness by way of a map, it's gonna be of no assistance to the Committee, it's gonna ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

BAFANA GONZWEIZA MHLABA: (s.u.o.)

MR MHLABA: I've already explained before that I never even went to school. As it has already been displayed, I'm lost, I don't even know where to start.

MR TIPP: Has it ever been discussed with you what the name was of the building where this incident took place?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Have you been told that it was Shell House?

MR MHLABA: Yes they did tell me that it's Shell House building.

MR TIPP: Yes alright, well let me just make an attempt, Mr Chairman we're not going to attempt unduly, if I can just ask my colleague to just point out where Shell House is, and to point out the portion of King George Street just to the left of it. Now I'm going to ask you Mr Mhlaba, are you able to follow that the street next to that building? The building has been coloured green, and there's a street that has been pointed out to you running next to it, can you follow that?

MR MHLABA: I can't see the street which we are using. I don't know from the Park Station where we could be from the map. From the Park Station, yes we proceeded from Park Station. Which building are you talking about, is it this one? When we're there we were coming from that direction and the first group was standing there. We formed one group on that point and we proceeded down up and that's where they started shooting at us and the other person fell on that point.

MR TIPP: Well that's very helpful Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to - if all that means anything at all ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: I'm going to.

CHAIRPERSON: As he points, will somebody read out the name of the streets or the roads that he's pointing at.

MR TIPP: Yes, let me try to summarise what has been pointed out. Mr Mhlaba has shown the direction from which they moved down King George Street from a northerly side towards a southern side. He has identified the intersection of King George Street and De Villiers Street, and has pointed to a position just to the south of that intersection in the portion of King George Street adjacent to Shell House where he was when he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it?

MR DORFLING: That's correct.

MR TIPP: My learned friends it?

MR DORFLING: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

MR TIPP: Thank you. So just to round off this point then, the point that you've just showed to the Committee where you were, it means that many hundreds of marchers were in front of you further to the south of King George Street along Shell House. I'm going to ask my colleague Mr Berger just to indicate the area and you can confirm.

So in that portion of the street there were hundreds of people, hundreds of marchers in front of you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as we were crossing up - after crossing the street there were not many of them, but that's where the shooting occurred. The other one fell right at the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: The shooting in the general vicinity of the corner of King George and De Villiers, in that general vicinity, is that right Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: I confirm that that is what the witness pointed out physically on the map.

MR TIPP: Yes, that's in order.

Mr Mhlaba you've said already in your evidence earlier, you were asked whether there'd been any shooting from amongst the marchers, you say you didn't hear or see it but you can't say that there wasn't such shooting, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I said so. I didn't see anything, I will not deny what might have happened right in front of me as there was this large sounds of cracking guns. I didn't know where they were coming from.

MR TIPP: Well let me put it, there was shooting from all around you, from all directions I think your phrase was, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: No I'm not saying that, I am saying that due to the sound of the firearms which were fired I couldn't tell where the sound was coming from but where the shooting started, it was the people who were on the ground who started shooting and then thereafter the people on top of the building started shooting.

MR TIPP: Well I'm just going to put to you in conclusion, that there's evidence and the witnesses from the ANC say that shots had been fired from amongst your crowd before they fired, and that they fired because there was a charge, an attack on them.

MR MHLABA: Why were we attacking them, if they say we were?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I don't propose to debate the matter, that completes our questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DORFLING: Just one aspect Mr Chair with your leave. Mr Mhlaba had you prior to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes it was not my first march with the Zulu marchers.

MR DORFLING: And had you subsequent to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

JUDGE NGCOBO: It was put to you that you gathered at the point where you say you did so that you can attack Shell House, and you denied that?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we didn't mean to attack.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You then mentioned that there were women in the group.

MR MHLABA: Yes they were with us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Were there any women in front, as far as you can recall?

MR MHLABA: I would say amongst all the groups since we are just mixed, there were women in our group and even after we formed one group there were women.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba, you have stated that you were in the middle of the second group and Mr Tipp has tried to ascertain exactly where you were once the two groups had merged. I just want you to estimate, probably by pointing if you can, from where you are to any part of this room, if you can, to show us exactly where you were by the time the two groups had merged. I do understand that you were right at the back but I would like to just get a mental picture of exactly where you were once the two groups had merged.

MR LAX: Sorry, in relation to what, if I could just add that?

MS KHAMPEPE: Once you came to the second group, where exactly were you before you started doing anything, before you started moving?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before, when we came to meet the first group I would say from the female interpreter, that's the distance from where I am, I personally as a person who was in the second group from behind, I would say it will have been a distance from here to the interpreter's box.

MS KHAMPEPE: This first group, if you can estimate as to how far it was, what distance will you give from where you are sitting, how far was it from you?

MR MHLABA: You mean in respect to the second group?

MS KHAMPEPE: I mean at the time when you joined the first group to form one. You said when you arrived, Mbatha has already stopped them so that they can unite with you to form one group.

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: At that time, you said that you were about the distance from where you are to the interpreter.

MR MHLABA: I will say no, in the first group it will be from where I am, just from - if they were starting from here ...(witness is demonstrating) and ...

MS KHAMPEPE: In your evidence, if that is true, it will mean that you were not able, you're not in a position to see what's happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as I've already stated I'm not sure of what happened inside.

MS KHAMPEPE: And again you wont be in a position to see what Mbatha was doing in front of the group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would be lying to say I know.

MS KHAMPEPE: And again you are not in a position to say that the people who were in front of the one group, they were people who were marching peacefully or otherwise?

MR MHLABA: No I can comment on that one, if they were doing something out of our mandate you could see, because you could see that. However, unless if someone went out of the group and do something aside.

MS KHAMPEPE: You mean beside getting out of group, you won't be able to know what was happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes I won't be able to see exactly what the people in front did.

MR MHLABA: As you communicated through shouting?

MR MHLABA: Yes that was the case.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Mbatha told you that there was going to be a meeting on the 28th, was that an order, or was that merely a request?

MR MHLABA: It was a request because we were requested by the King to listen to his wishes and also the things that were requested from the Pretoria, the Government, and we wanted to find out as to how - what came out from the meetings in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't go to work on that day?

MR MHLABA: Yes I didn't go to work on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel that you were compelled to attend this meeting?

MR MHLABA: I wasn't compelled because being compelled, it means someone have to tell you to do something that you wouldn't like to do. However, I also wish that I'll become part of what the King was going to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand. Did you pay your own trainfare or was that paid for you by somebody else?

MR MHLABA: I won't know exactly who paid. We were told by the leaders or the Indunas that we will travel by train, we didn't know who was supposed to pay for the fare.

MS KHAMPEPE: To your own knowledge Mr Mhlaba, it is true that all the people who were getting into the train, they didn't pay for themselves?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Are there any further questions you wish to put?

MR DORFLING: There's no questions that arise from the Committee's questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, thank you very much. Yes thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well now as I understand the position there are going to be no further witnesses in this matter.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would like to indicate that on behalf of the objectors for whom I appear there are no further witnesses. I've also been requested by Ms van der Westhuizen who is not present, to also indicate that on her behalf there's no further witnesses to be called by the objectors.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, as I've indicated yesterday, we've got no further witnesses to call. However, as I've also indicated yesterday, that there is a number, it's only four pages of the ballistic expert evidence which I wish to hand up to the Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR PRETORIUS: Unfortunately the memo that I drafted had not been typed by the time we left this morning. However, I would only like then to point out that the three or four major things appearing in this four pages for the benefit of the Committee. The first is that on page 7267 from line 20 to the bottom thereof, it appears that the witness testified that 38 AK47 shots were fired from the south-western corner of Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: The second is, which has already been canvassed and accepted by the applicants, that no shots were fired in the direction of the south-western corner of Shell House. That appears on 7268 from approximately line 19 to the bottom thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: And the third thing that appears on page 7269 from the top of the page up to approximately line 15, is that no shots were fired from the position where the people laid down that was injured at the corner there. There were no shots fired from that position. You referred to the sketch-plan which was already handed it, it will be noted that the blue circle from where the firing took place was actually not from that particular corner but in the middle of the street some distance away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: Then we've go no further questions, I have no further witnesses to call Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Off-hand I can't recall what Exhibit this report, the ballistics report is. Is there anybody who remembers?

MR LAX: It's part of one of the "C's" under "B".

CHAIRPERSON: We'll just have to find - just in case we don't let this be Exhibit F. Yes, thank you very much.

MR DORFLING: I think we can just mark it Exhibit F, maybe that would be ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this will go in as Exhibit F.

MR BERGER: Chairperson just for the record, and I'm not going to burden the Committee now with a ballistics argument, we don't agree with some of the submissions, in particular the final submission made by my learned friend about the circle, but we will deal with it in argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, quite understandably. He's giving you the purpose for which these pages are being handed to us from his point of view. We understand, thank you.

Now I think we should finalise one or two things, and that is we would welcome comprehensive written argument from counsel involved in this matter and as I have indicated earlier this morning, because of the burden that this Committee carries, we would appreciate it if that is done within 10 days from today. May I suggest that you please don't wait until you get the transcript of the remainder of the evidence, you can start doing your work, you know, now as it where, and in the hope that you'd be able to finish and let us have your heads within 10 days. Mr Tipp that's quite clear isn't it?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman that's perfectly clear and we will ensure that our heads are completed within that period. It may be that once we receive the responses from our learned friends, that we may need to file a short reply. If that is necessary we will attend to it with every dispatch.

CHAIRPERSON: Well one advantage about making your heads available or interchanging heads, is that it can only make the work of the Commission that much easier, and it will be of greater assistance to us once we have considered the replies, if there are any need for replies.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, may I similarly indicate the moment Mr Tipp and his team's argument is available, I would perhaps also like to comment on certain submissions made there and similarly I've agreed with Mr Tipp the moment his have become available I'll supplement the heads that have already been done by that time with whatever argument needs to be presented.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: A similar arrangement has been made between me and Mr Tipp as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, from a logistics point of view, my attorney of record has just asked me to make sure that we dispatch it to the right address, is it going to the Cape Town address or where is it supposed to be going?

CHAIRPERSON: No the administration of the Amnesty Committee is in Cape Town and it should go to the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee please.

MR DORFLING: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It remains for me to thank all of you for having assisted us with this inquiry. Things have moved much more smoothly than they might otherwise have. Thank you very much. I come to the conclusion of these hearings and we adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS