Amnesty Hearings

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, we call Perry Nhlanhla Dlamini, applicant number 7239/97. It's on page 30 of volume two, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, if we could just get some clarity. What channel does the witness use to hear in Zulu.

INTERPRETER: The Zulu is 4.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, which language do you prefer to use?

MR DLAMINI: Zulu.

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, be seated. Yes, proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Dlamini, you're applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Dlamini, do you belong to any political party?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR MAKANJEE: What is the name of the political party you belong to?

MR DLAMINI: ANC/SACP.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell the Committee what offences you are applying for amnesty for?

MR DLAMINI: In 1990, me and comrade Themba Xaba, Bafana Baloi and Jacky Macheo, we attacked Mr Msizi's house.

MR MAKANJEE: You mentioned comrade Xaba, is that the applicant who testified prior to you?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Very briefly would you tell us the events itself that led you to making this amnesty application?

MR DLAMINI: It was myself, comrade Themba, Jacky Macheo and Bafana Baloi. In 1990 we attacked Mr Msizi's house, we threw petrol bombs. We did so because Msizi was one of the councillors who used to harass and give hardships to the community. It includes arresting people and evicting people from their houses.

MR MAKANJEE: Did Mr Msizi belong to any particular political party?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was a member of the IFP and we considered him as someone who was collaborating with the apartheid regime at the time.

MR MAKANJEE: Who was present at Mr Msizi's house when you threw the petrol bombs at the house?

MR DLAMINI: There was - comrade Themba Xaba was a commander and he is the one who went and checked and he reported back to us that the police who were guarding Mr Msizi's house had just left. Then we took the chance to go and attack Mr Msizi's house.

We were not sure as to who was there because we didn't check, except for Themba Xaba but Msizi was inside the house.

MR MAKANJEE: So am I correct then in saying that the offences which you are applying for amnesty for are in fact arson and attempted murder, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAKANJEE: You have heard the counsel for Mr Msizi testify to the fact that Mr Msizi's family was present at the time of the petrol bombing, can you comment on that?

MR DLAMINI: I can't comment on that but for what we received from Themba, since he was the commander and he was the one who was checking and searching every information. He is the one who told us that Msizi was alone in his house.

MR MAKANJEE: Are there any other offences for which you wish to apply for amnesty?

MR DLAMINI: No, nothing.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

ADV DE JAGER: Before we proceed I would like to mention to you a few problems that I've got. In the application he is applying for amnesty for the general defence of the township. Dates

"Between the 28th of February 1991 up to 1992."

A very exact starting date being given. Now he's applying for an offence which was committed in 1990. Apart from that, on the next page:

"State whether any person was injured or suffered any damage."

No name mentioned, no victims mentioned. Wasn't he all the way aware of who the victim was, and why didn't he mention this in his application? And this application was attested to that it's the truth that is mentioned herein. So how did it come - why does he remember the name of the victim today and he didn't put it in at the stage of his application?

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chair. My instructions are that this application, along with the bulk of the applications that are before the Panel, were made as a general submission to avoid missing the deadline for such amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: But that doesn't help with the specific dates which are mentioned in the application.

PROBLEMS WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that the form was filled in erroneously, the date was meant to be 28.02.1990 till 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: When you signed that - Mr Dlamini, you signed this document, not so?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature on page 35?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's my signature.

CHAIRPERSON: And you signed it to signify that you are aware of the contents of this document?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time when you signed it you found nothing wrong with the document, not so?

MR DLAMINI: No, I didn't notice, we were in a hurry.

CHAIRPERSON: Why in a hurry? This is a document that affects your future, it affects your life, not so? It is even more important than your ID document. By the way, who assisted you in filling in this, or did you do it on your own?

MR DLAMINI: I did it myself and Sally helped us.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Sally?

MR DLAMINI: Sally Sealey.

CHAIRPERSON: And she was there when you filled in this form?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, she was there but she was standing by at the side.

CHAIRPERSON: And you signed this knowing full well what the contents of this document was. You were satisfied that this document reflected what you wanted it to reflect right up till 10 minutes ago?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew full well that you are applying for incidents that occurred between the 28th of February 1991 to, in your favour, the 31st of December 1992, correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, what is the position?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, if I could ...(no sound) again please.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, my instructions are again that my client at the time of filling in this form did so in a hurried manner ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We accept that, we have sympathy for that, we'll even find that, how does that help?

MR MAKANJEE: With regards to the dates supplied for the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot amend the application, you can supplement it. Now how does one supplement this to bring it in line with a successful application? I have difficulty to perceived that. That it could have been a mistake or is a mistake, well I have sympathy for that but the fact of the matter is I'm stuck with it, or this Committee is stuck with it, you are stuck with it, the applicant is stuck with it.

MR MAKANJEE: We cannot change the facts that the applicant has testified to already. We will argue in our closing argument on why Mr Dlamini's testimony should be accepted to fall within the ambit of his application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, either we have a proper application before us or not, because I have to decide now, depending on what you insist on, whether there is an application before us which entitles other people to cross-examine or not. If we haven't got a proper application then there's no point carrying on. If we do have, well then we've got to go through the full business. If you can persuade me that this is a proper application, I'll gladly allow the matter to go through.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to make it quite easy, and I hope your client can understand it, is that he could very well testify now about incidents that occurred between the 28th of February 1991 to the 31st of December 1992 but what he has already testified to is something that by his own admission occurred in 1990. He has not made application in respect of that incident, therefore there is no application for that incident before us.

ADV DE JAGER: You see, if he'd only mentioned the name for instance of the victim, then we could say well there's something to link it to that 1990 incident and the date may be a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: But there's nothing.

MR MAKANJEE: I agree with the Panel, that it is a very generally worded application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKANJEE: That's very true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, I think it is obvious to all of us what should happen. I appreciate your difficulty. I am going to adjourn for five minutes. You can explain the position to your client and hopefully you'll be able to explain it properly, that he understands and that sanity prevails.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: (s.u.o.)

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, after taking instructions from my client, my instructions are that my client is adamant that it was a mistake on the form and he does wish to proceed with his application. The findings can only be left in the hands of the Panel. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

MR MAKANJEE: No more questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Just briefly, Sir, whose idea was it to go and bomb this house?

MR DLAMINI: The idea was from Sally(?) but the commander was comrade Themba and Bafana and Jacky and myself ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that name please.

MR DLAMINI: The idea was from all of us but the commander was comrade Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just repeat the names that you mentioned about a minute ago.

MR DLAMINI: Themba Xaba, Bafana Baloi, Jacky Macheo and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not all the names you mentioned.

MR DLAMINI: Sally was the one who was responsible for us to fill the amnesty application forms.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were asked whose idea it was and you mentioned a name similar to Sally, was that a mistake?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was a mistake, I didn't understand the question very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I find that strange because all the other names you mentioned you repeated, but anyway you say it was a mistake.

Yes, Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

And when did you first decide to attack this house?

MR DLAMINI: We first decided as an organisation. As members of the ANC we decided that it was important for us to attack houses which belonged to people who were like Mr Msizi because they were harassing people and some people even lost their houses because of them. Therefore we decided that if we can burn his house, he will be forced to resign as a councillor.

ADV DE JAGER: The question was only this, when did you decide? Now you've given us a long answer with reasons and you didn't listen to the question, you only recited your own answer.

MR DLAMINI: We decided on the very same day.

MR SWANEPOEL: About what time?

MR DLAMINI: It was about 7 o'clock. We started preparing the petrol bombs and then we waited for a while and then at 9 o'clock we started attacking Mr Msizi's house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you see what damage was done to the house after the attack?

MR DLAMINI: I didn't see that, or the damage the same day. The next day we came and we realised that the windows were broken and the roof but the walls were still ...

MR SWANEPOEL: I have nothing further, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE