CHAIRPERSON: This bundle, Exhibit 4, I think that this will be in effect the fourth bundle we’ve received. The applications, supplement two, and supplement one.
ADV STEENKAMP: ...(indistinct). Just again Mr Chairman, there is a sworn statement. A copy was made available to you yesterday afternoon and is in front of you. Additional statements also made available regarding this specific application, but I’m sure my learned colleague will deal with that. Thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko I just want to enlighten you that we decided during the course of yesterday or the day before, that because some of the names were so closely related, either by sound or spelling, that when an applicant comes to testify, his identity number would be given to us as well. I don’t know if you’ve got it on hand. If not, during one of the breaks could you please get it, if you haven’t got it now.
MR SIBEKO: I’ll find it our Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Sibeko there is a number on page 111, can your client confirm whether the number is correct?
MR SIBEKO: The number has been confirmed to be correct, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: 0210 5393 08 3. Is that correct?
MR SIBEKO: It’s correct Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, which language would you prefer to use?
MR RADEBE: Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?
MR RADEBE: (sworn, states)
CHAIRPERSON: Be seated. Yes Mr.
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, you have made an application for amnesty. Is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: You have also supplemented your application with a sworn statement that was signed in Alberton on the 1st day of February 1999. Is that correct?
MR RADEBE: That’s correct.
MR SIBEKO: Your application for amnesty, is it related to any Self-Defence Unit activities that occurred in Tokoza?
MR RADEBE: That’s true.
MR SIBEKO: During the periods 1990 to 1993, were you part of any political structures?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Do you mind letting us know about those structures.
MR RADEBE: I was a member of Sanco, and executive member, sectional, Sanco executive sectional. I was a ...(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe I prefer you to use your mother tongue, it’s being translated for me, for us. I think you’d be more comfortable with Zulu. You can answer in Zulu and we get the translation.
INTERPRETER: May the applicant tune in to channel four.
CHAIRPERSON: Turn that thing to channel four.
MR RADEBE: I was a member of Sanco, and ANC member as well, youth league that is. As well as I used to assist in terms of establishing the SDU’s.
MR SIBEKO: Sir, you have indicated that you were an executive member of the sectional of Sanco. Were you an office bearer in the ANC youth league, or the ANC?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was, I was a member of the executive committee. The ANC youth league, as well as the Sanco section, I was also an executive member.
MR SIBEKO: Now at what level were you an executive member of the youth league? Is it branch level, regional, national?
MR RADEBE: ANC youth league, I was the branch executive member, as I’ve already finished the information that with the Sanco I will go as far as section, so we would have such meetings that I will be part of, sectional meetings that is, as far as Sanco is concerned.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at some stage during your, during the period, you were involved in the Self-Defence Units. Correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes. I held, or I played some role in establishing the Self-Defence Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that, that those Self-Defence Units were established as part of strategic plans, by the African National Congress, in order to defend its members against political attacks, physical political attacks?
MR RADEBE: The motive behind establishing these SDU’s was to protect, protect and defend the dwellers from the attacks.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, you’ve told us that you were involved in the establishment of these Self-Defence Units. Did you, at any time, become a member of one of them and participate in any of their activities, or what is the position?
MR RADEBE: Yes, to a certain extent.
CHAIRPERSON: Now tell us to which unit you were attached, and let’s carry on from there as to what you actually did.
MR RADEBE: I’m thinking maybe the Amnesty Committee does not have the full background as to the formation and the activities of the SDU. Maybe I’ll be afforded an opportunity to explain and furnish further information as to the activities and operations of the SDU if the Committee so ...(indistinct).
CHAIRPERSON: We have been given numerous documentation and in previous hearings there has been testimony, as to the strategic basis for which Self-Defence Units were established, and how it works. Should there be aspects that we are not sure of, we will ask you. At the moment we have an appreciation for the basis for which the Self-Defence Units existed.
MR RADEBE: What I did ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well let me help you. To which SDU were you attached?
MR RADEBE: I was attached to the senior people of ANC like Robert MacBride and others. I used to work hand in hand with them and we used to call them or refer to them with their code names, not with their real names. They did not want the police to know their real names, so in order to protect their identity we’ll have to use code names.
CHAIRPERSON: Now in what capacity did you serve on, can I call it a senior committee?
MR RADEBE: Yes, because there was a time when I was given firearms and it rested upon my responsibility to command others, so in a way I think I worked close with the senior, or the seniors of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you a commander?
MR RADEBE: Yes, in that particular unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Now that unit, where would it operate? In which area?
MR RADEBE: There were times when we will get together or combine with another unit which was formed in a place called Polla Park. We’ll get together and also combine with other units that, whose leader was Allrose and other existing units around the area.
CHAIRPERSON: But you talk as if those were isolated instances. I’m talking generally. Where were your area of operations?
MR RADEBE: My unit was based in Penduka.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now, as a commander in that unit, what did you do in connection with the incidents for which you applied for amnesty?
MR RADEBE: First of all, there was a time after we combined with the unit from Polla Park, certain policemen were shot at night, and the Hippo, the police vehicle, Caspir that is, was, we took it and we used it to go to Katuza.
CHAIRPERSON: Before we continue, let us establish, to make things easier, what is it you’re applying for in the first place, then we can deal with it incident by incident. Do you understand what I’m saying? Or maybe Mr Sibeko, you can guide us on that one, please.
MR SIBEKO: With your permission Mr Chairman. The application is for his involvement in the establishment of the units. The incident that occurred in 1991.
CHAIRPERSON: What crime would be involved there?
MR SIBEKO: It will be a murder of a police officer. It would be attacks at the Katuza hostel, the very same, it’s connected to the very same incident.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) malicious injury to property, or arson, or something. What would that be?
MR SIBEKO: It would be malicious injury to property.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR SIBEKO: It would be malicious injury to property, to a vehicle belonging to Bishop ...(indistinct) Khumalo.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR SIBEKO: It’s a second incident.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR SIBEKO: That will be all Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) two incidents but three crimes?
MR SIBEKO: That’s correct so Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Radebe, let us take the first incident. The one of the murder of the policeman. Can you tell us what your part in that incident was?
MR RADEBE: We were patrolling in the middle of the night in Polla Park, combined with the other unit. And police and soldiers came to harass the community. And we agreed amongst ourselves that the police are harassing us and yet the IFP was attacking during the day. We decided that we will shoot the police because of their acts. I took my firearm, and the other men took their firearms as well, and we left with the intention of going to kill. We shot indiscriminately, we kept shooting, until we got an opportunity to injure some of the policemen. But one policeman I saw in the morning, I realised he was dead. We decided to take the Caspir and use it for counter attacks to the hostel dwellers, because they had attacked previously during the day. And one colleague of mine drove the Hippo. If I remember very well, Nyauza was the name of the colleague who drove the Caspir.
CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on. Mr Sibeko, the taking of the Caspir, would that not have amounted to theft?
MR SIBEKO: It would amount to theft Mr Chairman. I beg leave it also be included.
MR RADEBE: We proceeded to the hostel, Katuza hostel that is. We went, we got off, alighted from the Caspir and we knocked at the doors and the windows of the hostel, and we shouted they should wake up and open the doors, we are here to attack. And as they woke up they switched on the lights and we started firing towards them and threw the petrol bombs into their room. It took about some time because we did that to numerous hostel rooms, and we decided it’s time to go back now. We went back to the Caspir and we drove towards the first hostel, and we found them standing there amazed as to what was happening, and I do believe that they thought these were police and we started at shooting at them since they were not running away. We shot towards them and we drove towards Polla Park.
Just towards Polla Park we decided to stop the Caspir and alight from the Caspir, and walked into the neighbourhood.
MR SIBEKO: Now sir, when you started telling us about this incident, you said you were with some men, and throughout you only mentioned Nyawuza who had been the driver of the Caspir. Who else was there? Who else was part of the group at Polla Park?
MR RADEBE: We were together with Umshala, our cousin, the one who was deployed by ANC, plus Nyawuza and Dlamini. Well I will not be in a position to furnish the real names of the other colleagues, because we used code names. Taking into consideration the fact that this happened some time ago I may have, or I have certainly forgotten some of the names.
MR SIBEKO: Now in carrying out this attack, was there anything that you gained? You as the group, that is the unit?
MR RADEBE: We did not gain anything. But because there was this attack, continuous attack, that day, carrying from during the day towards the night, we sort of believed that we should take it upon ourselves to go and attack as well. In other words we were satisfied by what happened. They attacked and we attacked as well, because really they attacked us for no apparent reason.
MR SIBEKO: Are you aware whether were the people who were attacked at Katuza who might have died, or injured as a result? That is when you got into Katuza with this Caspir.
MR RADEBE: As I’ve already explained that, when they switched, immediately they switched on their lights and we will see people inside, we will start shooting immediately, but as for me, to say that we managed to kill or injure how many, I’m not able to furnish that much information. But somehow the following day we believed that there were some people who died. As to the number, we are not sure, or to date, I don’t know.
MR SIBEKO: So in the event that information is to be said to be true, you would also want to be given amnesty for such activity?
MR RADEBE: Yes, my request is that because of that atrocity that we committed I would like to be granted amnesty thereof.
CHAIRPERSON: But you’re not too sure what crime was committed. You yourself.
MR RADEBE: Please repeat your question. The question is a bit ambiguous.
CHAIRPERSON: You are not certain what crimes were committed in that incident, are you?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I don’t have evidence as to the people who were injured or who died as a result of that attack. But as I’ve already explained there, subsequently as we were going around trying to get some information in relation to the attack previously, we did manage to know that there were people who died as a result. The Inkatha Freedom Party leader did go to the hostel to inspect the damage after that.
CHAIRPERSON: This all occurred during 1991?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I think between 1990 and 1991.
CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
MR SIBEKO: Who is the Inkatha leader who went to the hostel to inspect the damage?
MR RADEBE: During the day, the following day, the president, the apparent president of the IFP did arrive at Tokoza. I’m referring to Mangasothu.
MR SIBEKO: Now about the other incident where the bakkie of Mr, or of the bishop, was attacked. What happened?
MR RADEBE: We were in one of the places called Lusaka A, together with the soldiers, the SDU members that is, of Lusaka A. We were contacted by the community that there was a van driving around shooting indiscriminately to the community members, and we had with us the AK-47. We then left instantly to go after the van. Fortunately we recovered the van and they were still shooting, and we had no choice but to shoot back at the van. Bishop Khumalo’s van that is. Because he also had harassed to great extent the community, especially the youth of Tokoza.
MR SIBEKO: So, you just indicate that the said bakkie was attacked. How, and what is the extent of the damage to the said bakkie? How was it attacked? What was used? And what was the extent of the damage?
MR RADEBE: We did not burn it, but I think the way we were shooting at that bakkie was ...(indistinct) and I’m sure of the fact that it was highly damaged. But they managed to escape still. Then we did not subsequently discover as to how much damage it sustained, the vehicle that is.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any other thing that you would want to add that is, that relates to this application, that is the incidences that you have mentioned today.
MR RADEBE: As we are well aware that there is peace and stability in the community of Tokoza, I think if Khumalo himself, or his, the organisation that he was affiliated, and people that sustained injuries as a result of this attack, I would like to voice out this plea. We should come together and reconcile in light of creating peace, this is essential for us to do. To reconcile and put back the past and move on peacefully.
MR SIBEKO: And you also would agree with me that the same sentiment also goes to other people who might have been harmed or hurt as a result of all the activities that you were involved in during the times of violence?
MR RADEBE: What I’m trying to explain here is that all the families that lost their beloved ones during the time of this violence, I would like to plead with them that we should move on now and peacefully so.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I’ve got no further questions for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chair, just one or two questions. Sir according to the amnesty application on page 115, I’m referring to paragraph 11(b) Mr Chairman, do you have that? You’re saying there
"...I got an order as when needed.
Did you, who was, can you first of all tell me who was your commanding officer, or did you have a commanding officer?
MR RADEBE: As I was explaining, that the organisation of ANC had deployed people. If there was a need and we were in a situation that we are able to protect the community, the gentleman called Mashana was the one giving instructions or orders to me. In other words, Mashana was the one issuing orders to me.
ADV STEENKAMP: And the actions for which you are applying for amnesty for, did he give you instructions to be engaged in these actions as well, or did he authorise these actions?
MR RADEBE: I did not out of my own volition do this, or authorise myself to act the way I did. But the Committee must be clear about one thing, that the situation that prevailed at the time in Tokoza, there are some place, especially when being attacked, there would be no time to wait upon the commander or instruction. You would have to act and use your own discretion and counteract the situation. You would have to decide there and then to do something without any issuing of an order whatsoever.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP
ADV GCABASHE: I have no questions thanks.
MR SIBANYONI: On page two, paragraph 7, of your affidavit you are saying,
"...There are several other incidents where I carried a firearm and fired shots in defence of our community and property."
Were any people injured or murdered during those other several incidents?
MR RADEBE: Yes. I think this I must say it in black and white, there are people who sustained injuries or died for that matter. Referring to paragraph 7 of the affidavit, I think there I’m trying to explain about the situation that prevailed during the day of the funeral of Sam Ntuli, where many people were killed, and where we were called as one of the units that people will be going to, or people attended Sam Ntuli’s funeral were being killed and attacked from the taxi ranks towards the inner part of the area.
Once you were seen wearing a T-shirt bearing ANC colours you will be attack for that. And there were kombis that were shown by people around. Those were the kombis that were attacking the people attending the funeral. And we started then shooting at such people who were attacking. Now on that very day many people sustained injuries and many were killed. So I’m not in a position to say as to exactly how many did I kill or how many did I injure, but because of the situation that prevailed I am certain of the fact that people were injured and people died.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: The Caspir that was stolen. Why was it stolen?
MR RADEBE: Mr Chair, that Caspir we had to take. Number one, we were highly infuriated because during the day we were not able to attack back the attackers, IFP that is, because the very same stability Caspirs were escorting these IFP people to attack the community. Now the IFP was well protected by the police, and they had within their, on their possessions firearms, numerous of them. Now we had no-one to be on our side, or on our side, to reinforce us or to work hand in hand with us as Inkatha had police on their side as well as the soldiers.
Now the way we viewed the police were, was in such a way that they were working hand in hand with Inkatha attacking the community.
CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your evidence, is that broadly speaking the fighting was taking place between members of the, who were attached, to the IFP or supported the IFP, as against people who were members or associates of the ANC.
MR RADEBE: Please may you repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: Broadly speaking the fights that were occurring in the area, the battles, were being fought by members or supporters of the IFP as against members or supporters of the ANC, and their allies I suppose.
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct. The IFP members were attacking the leaders and the followers of ANC as well as the community at large, because there were people who were harassed yet not politically affiliated to any of the organisations. And by the same token there were people that were killed from the IFP side who were not necessarily IFP members, but sustained injuries or were caught in this fire.
CHAIRPERSON: And one last question. During this attack on the van of Bishop Khumalo, did you also shoot?
MR RADEBE: Please repeat the last part of your question.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you also actively participate in the attack by shooting or doing whatever else?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I took part. I shot as well.
CHAIRPERSON: And that attack was the result of your order?
MR RADEBE: As I’ve already explained that, as the community we had, even the community, the other part of the community, had fired shots and we were not aware about the fact that Khumalo was there with his gang shooting and attacking. So it was not my decision as such that we should kill but it was the decision that was taken by the unit or the SDU members that I was in their company that we should now attack.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you had to give authority for that attack, not so? I’ll tell you why I’m asking. Because in your supplementary affidavit, paragraph 3.1, you there say, that you instructed an attack on the bakkie belonging to Bishop Khumalo.
MR RADEBE: Yes I will say that I did issue that instruction, but as I’ve already explained previously that the community was running and rushing to us to inform us that there was an attack that was going on, and I uttered such words as, "let’s go back, let’s go." So obviously that was, that formed a counter attack. But we took it as a group
CHAIRPERSON: Now, this Caspir that you took also, was it taken purely for the purposes of facilitating the defence of people?
MR RADEBE: I may agree with you. In that we were defending the community. You see the police plus the IFP people were coming to attack during the day, but we’re not, or we’re unable to retaliate or to defend ourselves at the time. But now at that time we deemed it fit for us to go now and attack.
CHAIRPERSON: In short and in plain language, it was not taken for the purpose of running a taxi business, but it was taken for the purpose of progressing your struggle.
MR RADEBE: First of all it was at night, people were asleep and we were ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe listen to the question. You’ve repeated yourself on a number of occasions. I just want to get something straight here for the purposes of our decision. That Caspir was not taken from the police after they were shot for the purpose of running something for somebody’s private business, but it was taken to facilitate your struggle.
MR RADEBE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko have you got any questions?
MR SIBEKO: None thanks, Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman this is the only application that I had for today. May I be excused for now? I’d like
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman the other matters that I have are purely chamber matters. I therefore request that I be excused.
CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances you are then excused. Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I hate to ask for an adjournment, but I understand Mr Lawly Shane just gave me a request that needs another five minutes to prepare and in the circumstances I would like to ask that we make, if it’s possible to adjourn for two or three minutes Mr Chairman. I can just find out what ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where is he?
ADV STEENKAMP: ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Well we’ll adjourn and you can call us as soon as he’s ready.
WITNESS EXCUSED
