MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, my next applicant is Joseph Bongi Nkosi Motshwene. His application appears on page 275 of the bundle. It is application AM3884/96. Mr Chairman, he was here this morning, in the circumstances, can I request a short adjournment so that I try and ...
CHAIRPERSON: You can find him.
MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Motshwene is applying for amnesty for attempted murder and possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition.
Mr Chairman, before you proceed, can I give you the applicant's identity number? It is 711114 5387 08 8.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motshwene, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MOTSHWENE: Zulu.
JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Motshwene, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit in Sisulu Section in Tokoza is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: When did you join?
MR MOTSHWENE: In 1991.
MRS NHLAYISI: Who was your Commander?
MR MOTSHWENE: Mr Commander was Chaka.
ADV GCABASHE: What are his full names?
MR MOTSHWENE: I don't know his full names, we used to call him Chaka, that is all.
MRS NHLAYISI: There is an incident that happened in 1993, is that correct, where you were involved in a shooting of one Masiti Keswa, a school teacher in Macatizwe primary school. Could you tell this Committee what happened on this particular day?
MR MOTSHWENE: We were coming from Radebe Section, the residents of Radebe were fighting with the hostel dwellers. Our Commander, Chaka, requested us that if we were willing to go and assist there, we could do so. That was in Radebe Section.
We were from Radebe Section, on our way to Tokoza, we met with a group of people, the vigilante group. They had their traditional weapons. They were wearing a certain attire with red head bands and on their arms, they had some red bands. They were taking the direction of Natalspruit and we met with these people. They wanted to know which party did we belong to and we could see that they were undermining us. We told them that we did not belong to anything, we were just human beings.
They wanted to attack us with their traditional weapons, their knopkieries, we ran away.
MRS NHLAYISI: In your testimony, you were referring to we. How many were you or who was in your company as you came from Radebe Section when you met this group of people?
MR MOTSHWENE: It was myself and a friend of mine, the two of us.
MRS NHLAYISI: Then after they asked you as to which political party did you belong, what happened next?
MR MOTSHWENE: We told them that we did not belong to any political organisation, we were not members. They tried to attack us with their weapons. I had a pistol, I was armed with a pistol and then they tried to attack us. I could see that I was in danger, like before.
I decided to run away. Others pursued us, and I drew my pistol. I shot towards them, they were scattered around and others went to the school yard that was there in that vicinity. As the others were pursuing us, they shot at us. I shot at them.
They were scattered around the place. The others went over to the school yard. I realised that they were not armed, they only had their knopkieries, I went to fetch the other comrades.
MRS NHLAYISI: You followed those that went into the school yard, is that what you are saying? You said they got scattered and you realised that they were not armed with firearms, they only had knopkieries and then you decided to follow them, is that what you are saying?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: The pistol that you have mentioned, where did you get that?
MR MOTSHWENE: I got it from our Commander, Chaka.
MRS NHLAYISI: So it wasn't your personal weapon as such, it was issued to you by the Commander for the defence of the community, is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, after this other group of people ran into the school yard and you followed them, what happened?
MR MOTSHWENE: When we got into the school yard, in the premises of the school, we met with two people. There were people who were just walking by. I stopped them, they did not stop, they did not stop, I shot again for the second time.
MRS NHLAYISI: Why did you do that when you met this two people in the school premises, and you just decided to order them to stop and shot towards them, what was the reason?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question?
MRS NHLAYISI: You are saying that you got into the school yard, you saw two people there and you ordered them to stop, they didn't stop and then you fired a shot towards them. What was the reason for you firing towards the people that you saw in the school yard?
MR MOTSHWENE: I thought these people were from that group. I was not sure whether these people were with that other group. I suspected them as the people who were coming from that group, because even the other people ran into the school yard.
MRS NHLAYISI: So you actually thought they were part of the group that ran into the school premises, is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: When you fired a shot towards these people, did it hit any of them?
MR MOTSHWENE: No one was shot at.
MRS NHLAYISI: So after you fired this shot, what happened next?
MR MOTSHWENE: These people ran away. They ran into the classroom.
ADV GCABASHE: Which people ran away, the two passer by's who you had just shot at, or who exactly?
MR MOTSHWENE: The people that I had ordered to stop.
MRS NHLAYISI: After they ran into a classroom, what did you do, did you chase them?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I chased them. They got into a classroom and I also got into the class. I was surprised to find out there were people inside that classroom, they were drinking. They were not the people that we were fighting with.
MRS NHLAYISI: So you discovered that you directed a shot at wrong people actually when you stopped these two individuals outside and fired shots at them? Is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened there, did you try to talk to them?
MR MOTSHWENE: They asked me what was happening. As I was surprised and I could see that I was shooting at the wrong people, I told them that there was nothing wrong with them, but the problem was just outside.
MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened?
MR MOTSHWENE: I was just talking to them. They wanted to know what was happening outside. I told them that there were people who were fighting with us, outside. As I was still talking with them, someone hit me with an object at the back of my head, and I fainted.
I don't know what happened thereafter. When I woke up, I was in hospital with police around me.
MRS NHLAYISI: So you were arrested for this particular incident?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: Is it further correct that you were convicted for attempted murder and possession of unlicensed firearm, arising from this particular incident?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: Am I further correct to say that you have already served your time as sentenced by the Criminal Court regarding this incident?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Motshwene, why are you now applying for amnesty relating to this particular incident?
MR MOTSHWENE: It is solely because this disturbed me for a very long time, because I nearly killed a teacher for nothing, because of violence that was taking place in Tokoza.
To think that that person was innocent, he knew nothing, that actually disturbed me. That is why I am here, and I also want to talk to him to tell him that it was nothing personal between me and himself, but it was because of the other people that we were fighting with, the people who wanted to kill us.
MRS NHLAYISI: Between the time that you have been released from jail and now, have you made any attempts to get hold of Mr Keswa and say what you are saying today, tell him that there was nothing personal towards him when this incident happened, it was the circumstances?
MR MOTSHWENE: No, I did not attempt to do so because I thought that if I go to him, he will be shocked and if he recognises me, it might look like I am trying to bribe him.
I thought that he might think that I want to bribe him. I told myself that I will wait for my turn to come and apply for amnesty.
MRS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific message that you would like to send to this particular victim, if he would be in a position to hear your message?
MR MOTSHWENE: What message?
MRS NHLAYISI: About this incident, what would you like to say to him, with a view of bringing peace between yourself and with an aim of bringing peace in the community where you are staying?
MR MOTSHWENE: I would like to tell him that what happened to him, he knew very well what was happening in the township at the time. What was happening at the time when I nearly killed him. I want to say this to him, I want to ask for forgiveness because what happened to him, was not personal. I was trying to protect myself from my assailants or attackers.
There is nothing else.
MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI
CHAIRPERSON: We will break for the tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: (still under oath)
CHAIRPERSON: It seems that the cellphones are interfering with the interpretation mechanisms and the recording mechanisms. As a result thereof, I must request that all cellular telephones be switched off. Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, during the adjournment I think it was my turn to ask questions, I don't have any questions for the applicant Mr Chairman. I think he finished his testimony as well. Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Motshwene, there are parts of your evidence that I don't quite understand, so I am going to ask you to go through particular points for me.
Just to get this right, Radebe Section, is that in Katlehong?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, it is in Katlehong.
ADV GCABASHE: So, you were on your way from Katlehong going home to Tokoza, when you came across this group of, I will call them vigilantes, which was one of the words that was interpreted to us, wearing red head bands, is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question Ma'am?
ADV GCABASHE: You were on your way home with a friend, when you came across this group of people, wearing red head bands and red arm bands?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: They harassed you and asked you which political party you belonged to and you said no, we don't belong to any political party, is that what you said?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: But they continued to harass you and you decided to run away and as you ran away, you shot at them, because they were behind you I presume? Am I right?
MR MOTSHWENE: They were just opposite us. I shot at them as they were chasing us because they pointed us with their assegais.
ADV GCABASHE: Again, I am trying to get the right picture. They were in front of you and you ran towards them, or they were behind you and you ran away from them, clarify that for me.
MR MOTSHWENE: As we were running away, they were following us, they were chasing us from behind.
ADV GCABASHE: Right. So you have these people behind you, chasing you and you shoot at them, and when you do this, they scatter and run all over the place, yes?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, they got scattered as I was shooting at them.
ADV GCABASHE: But you were still in front of them, and you were still running forward towards Tokoza, am I right?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question?
ADV GCABASHE: At this point you and your friend were still ahead of them, you were still running towards Tokoza?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: This is where I have another gap, please help me with this. At this point, you appeared to say that you decided to go and fetch your comrades. Just put that sentence that I wrote down earlier, in the right context for me.
You are running away from these people, what then happens?
MR MOTSHWENE: We did not think of fetching the comrades as we were going back to Tokoza when we parted with these people, I don't understand you, what do you mean? When we parted with these people, we went to fetch the other comrades, or you want to know if we wanted to fetch the comrades as we were coming from Radebe Section, what is your question?
MR MOTSHWENE: When you gave testimony earlier, I wrote here that these people were scattered around the place, some ran into the school yard. That is what I wrote. I realised they only had knopkieries, you realised that they didn't have firearms.
My next sentence is, I went to fetch my comrades. If I misunderstood what the Interpreter was saying, please correct me. If you did in fact go and look for your comrades, please clarify the point.
MR MOTSHWENE: You did not understand. As these people wanted to attack us with their sticks, they tried to chase us. I drew my pistol and I shot at them, and they were scattered around the place. The others ran into a school yard.
I could see that they were not armed, they did not have firearms. That is when I decided to get into the school yard, to fetch the others, because I realised that they were not armed, they did not have any firearms.
I wonder if you want me to explain further?
ADV GCABASHE: That has helped to a certain extent. When they ran into the school yard, into the school yard, you realised that they didn't have firearms, you then made a U-turn and came back to deal with this group, is this what you are saying?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Two questions, the first one is, where was your friend at this point? There were two of you originally?
MR MOTSHWENE: He was still with me all the time.
ADV GCABASHE: So the two of you turned back to deal with these chaps. Why did you turn back to deal with these chaps?
MR MOTSHWENE: First of all, this vigilante group, I don't like them, they caused injuries. They injured me and the IFP people, I was nearly killed in 1992, by Bhekinsele Khumalo, therefore I disliked those people.
Whatever they tried to do to me, they would try to do to me, I would retaliate because I was nearly killed by the same people.
ADV GCABASHE: Again explain that to me even further. You were turning back to avenge what they had done to you in the past or what Bhekinsele Khumalo had done to you in the past, is this what you are saying? Help me with this.
MR MOTSHWENE: I cannot be that specific that I wanted to avenge what was done by Bhekinsele Khumalo to me, but I disliked them because they were trying, they were also trying to kill us.
That was an order that was issued by our Commander that as the people who were coming from Radebe to assist the Radebe Section, we had to hit back to these people and trying to prevent them from doing whatever they were trying to do.
CHAIRPERSON: You will have to be specific, why did you shoot back? That was the question.
MR MOTSHWENE: I wanted to shoot at them, because they were trying to attack us.
CHAIRPERSON: So to say you were defending yourself?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, actually we were defending ourselves, because if they were not aware of the fact that we had firearms, perhaps some of them would follow us.
ADV GCABASHE: Now that initial shooting took place before you got to Macatizwe school, didn't it? That first shooting?
MR MOTSHWENE: You mean the initial shooting? It was, it took place not far from Macatizwe school.
ADV GCABASHE: Now let's get to the second shooting, this is the shooting now of what turned out to be a teacher. You have made this U-turn and the note I had written here was as follows: when we went into the school yard, we saw two persons who were just walking by. You asked them to stop and they didn't stop, so you shot them and the note I have here, is I shot for the second time.
Explain that to me. How did you come to shoot this particular teacher at that point? You asked them to stop, they refused to stop.
MR MOTSHWENE: I was shooting them from a distance, I wanted them to stop, I was not closer to them.
ADV GCABASHE: Why did you want them to stop?
MR MOTSHWENE: I wanted to catch them.
ADV GCABASHE: What made you think that these two persons were associated with the group that had been wearing those red bands?
MR MOTSHWENE: It is because the people appeared from a place where these other people disappeared into, where this other group of people went into, so they came out of that place also.
I was also aware of the fact that in that school yard, no one else was supposed to be there, because the schools were closed, so I thought those were the same people.
ADV GCABASHE: So these two people who were walking by, actually came out of Macatizwe school and walked towards you, is this what you are saying? Just help me.
MR MOTSHWENE: They were not coming to our direction, they were just walking. I think they were just walking, but we would later meet on that same route.
ADV GCABASHE: To come back to the reason for asking them to stop and the reason for shooting at them, you say you wanted to capture them. What for?
MR MOTSHWENE: I was going to take them to our Commander.
ADV GCABASHE: You see my difficulty is on what you are saying, these same people are the ones you had run away from earlier, is that not right? This is what you thought anyway?
MR MOTSHWENE: It was a large group of people when I ran away from them, but when I saw only two of them, I was not afraid of them because I knew that they had no firearms.
I realised that they did not shoot. If there was an exchange of fire, I wouldn't go back there, but I became aware of the fact that they were unarmed.
ADV GCABASHE: That was going to be my next question. Just to help me understand this, you knew they were unarmed, the bigger group, but you could see these two and they didn't wear red bandannas or anything of the sort, they weren't carrying knopkieries, they weren't carrying assegais. Why did you associate these two with the grouping that had run into the school, running away from your firearm?
MR MOTSHWENE: Out of all of these people, from the very first group, it is not all of them who had, only a few of them had red head bands and even this twosome, I did not know that they were teachers. They were not dressed formally. That is why I assumed that these people were from the same group of people that I was chasing.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they have red bands, those two teachers?
MR MOTSHWENE: I did not notice that.
CHAIRPERSON: Then what made you think they were part of that group?
MR MOTSHWENE: It is not always the case that you identify vigilante with a red head band. It was only that they appeared from that school where the other people ran into and there were no other people in the school.
ADV GCABASHE: Again just for clarity, this incident happened at night?
MR MOTSHWENE: No, it was in the afternoon.
ADV GCABASHE: Give us just a rough time of the afternoon.
MR MOTSHWENE: Between two and three o'clock.
ADV GCABASHE: So you could see this people clearly and they could see you clearly?
MR MOTSHWENE: Which people?
ADV GCABASHE: These two teachers?
MR MOTSHWENE: As I have already explained that I shot at these people at a distance, they did not meet. Maybe I would be able to see the difference if I had a closer look.
ADV GCABASHE: Had it been the principal of the school walking out with one of his teachers, walking out of the school premises, you would again have shot at them? I am just using an example.
You would have shot at him?
MR MOTSHWENE: You can, teachers, they dress formally all the time, but the way those teachers were dressed on that particular day, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were teachers or not, but when I heard after that, I later heard that they had a party at the school.
ADV GCABASHE: Did your friend do anything at all apart from just watch you shoot at both the first group and then these two teachers? What did he do?
MR MOTSHWENE: He had nothing to do, except to tell me that those were the people or not, because I was the only one who was armed with a pistol. He had nothing to do.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, when would your friend tell you whether they are the people or not?
MR MOTSHWENE: As I have already explained that he was next to me all the time. He would just tell me any time. This happened unexpectedly and we didn't know that we were going to meet with such people.
It is not possible that you will always act straight whenever things like this happen, but we were very angry at the time, because they appeared at a time when we knew very well that we were fighting these people and there was no peace between us and this group of people, because we knew that they were going to kill us.
MR SIBANYONI: Did your friend say anything before you shot at them?
MR MOTSHWENE: We did not communicate properly because I just said here are these people, and we argued. Some were there, we decided to shoot and we told ourselves that if they run away, we will be able to say those were the people who were enemies.
The people who knew nothing, the people who were innocent, wouldn't run away.
MR SIBANYONI: At what stage did you discover or realise that they were not the people, or part of the vigilante group? When did you discover that?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir?
MR SIBANYONI: When did you realise that those were teachers, but not part of the vigilante group?
MR MOTSHWENE: I realised when I was in the class, as I was talking to them and they were asking me what was happening. That is when I took my firearm back, because I could see the people in that classroom had nothing to do with the group of people that we were pursuing, that is when I realised that those were the wrong people.
If those were the people that we were looking for, I wouldn't take my firearm back.
MR SIBANYONI: You are applying for amnesty for attempted murder, was this teacher injured in any way?
MR MOTSHWENE: No, he was never injured.
MR SIBANYONI: Which means the bullet never struck him?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct. It was not directed to him.
MR SIBANYONI: Where did you direct it?
MR MOTSHWENE: I was just shooting, I shot at the side, it was not directed to him. I had a lot of bullets. My firearm was fully loaded.
MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying you deliberately shot away from him?
MR MOTSHWENE: I can say so. I was just shooting because we were not so sure that those were the people that we were pursuing, that is why we decided to shoot because by seeing them running away, we would confirm that those were the people that we were after.
MR SIBANYONI: Maybe I should phrase my question this way, what did you intend to achieve by firing the shot at that stage?
MR MOTSHWENE: We wanted to capture these people, we wanted to take them with.
We would decide whether to capture them or just to shoot them.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We were informed that you were applying for amnesty in respect of one count of attempted murder and one count each of unlawful possession of firearm and ammunition. Is that correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The attempted murder, is that in respect of this teacher?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, it is one case.
CHAIRPERSON: Why I am asking you is because there were two incidents of shooting, and I want to establish from you what the position is. What do you want amnesty for?
MR MOTSHWENE: It is the one that has got something to do with the teacher.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this person before that day, this teacher?
MR MOTSHWENE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: How far from him were you when you shot at him?
MR MOTSHWENE: The distance would be from that double door, the one that I am facing right now, to where I am sitting approximately.
CHAIRPERSON: Our estimate is about 30 to 40 metres?
MRS NHLAYISI: I agree, it is about 30 meters.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't recognise or you didn't know either of the people that you saw from that distance?
MR MOTSHWENE: I couldn't be able to identify him, because there was another group of people and we were not talking to them, standing direct next to us. We were just waiting for them to do something and we would run away.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you talk to them at that distance?
MR MOTSHWENE: What people? The people from the group or this other two gentlemen?
CHAIRPERSON: These two gentlemen. Forget about the other group now, you are not making application in respect of that other group. Let's talk about the two teachers.
Did you make an attempt before you shot at them, to talk to them, shout to them or whatever?
MR MOTSHWENE: What I did to them, was I ordered them to stop, but they refused.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that from the distance that you pointed out that you ordered them to stop?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they still at the school gate or what is the position?
MR MOTSHWENE: They were inside the school premises.
CHAIRPERSON: When they never responded to your order, you shot at them?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: While they were in the school premises now, is the school's premises fenced off?
MR MOTSHWENE: The fence was partly damaged, people would walk through the school premises, people from Katlehong to Tokoza would just go through because the fence was partly damaged.
CHAIRPERSON: When you told them to stop, were they walking in your direction?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, they were facing our direction.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew that they were not armed with any weapon that could injure you from that distance, not so?
MR MOTSHWENE: Who? Are you referring to the twosome?
CHAIRPERSON: Those two gentlemen. Yes, we are talking about those two teachers only, you know that.
MR MOTSHWENE: I am not certain whether they were armed or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Exactly, but you could not see any arms that they may have been carrying that could injure you over that distance, not so?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir?
CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't be injured from that distance, because you never saw any firearms there with them, not so?
MR MOTSHWENE: Even if they were armed, but as a person who had his firearm, as I was the person who had his firearm in his hand, I would shoot first.
CHAIRPERSON: You see what is troubling me in your application is that we don't exactly know why you shot at them. Are you able to help us so that we can make a proper decision?
MR MOTSHWENE: You want to know about the reason why I shot at these people, will you please clarify your question sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Why did you shoot at them?
MR MOTSHWENE: I explained before that I thought that these people were coming from that other group, the people that we were after. That is why I shot at them.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary to shoot?
MR MOTSHWENE: I wanted to show them that I had a firearm, because I knew that if I shoot first, they wouldn't get a chance to shoot, because my pistol was in my hand.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motshwene, I want to be absolutely fair to you. I am going to ask you a question which I want you to deal with because it concerns us. Basically the Act in terms of which you applied for amnesty, requires two aspects to be complied with.
The first one and I am going to give the lesser one for your purposes, is to make a full disclosure of what occurred there and what was decided and whose orders were complied with, etc. I haven't got too much to worry about on that score.
The second aspect which is required to be complied with, is that your actions must have been based on a political motive such that it was in the furtherance of the organisation or the objectives of the organisation on behalf of whom you acted, do you understand that?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand, but I would request you to repeat the first question.
CHAIRPERSON: The aspect that is concerning us, is the political motive aspect. I am going to put the question to you because you tell me now that you understand that requirement.
Was there a political motive for you to act in the way you described your acts and if so, what was the political motive?
MR MOTSHWENE: The answer is yes, because if the vigilante group did not attack me, I wouldn't go to jail and be sentenced for this case. I was not doing this with a certain aim, but these people were attacking us.
As the people who were trying to protect us, this happened and I was also a member of the SDU, we were defending wherever necessary. I can say if it was not for the vigilante group, I wouldn't be here today.
Secondly, as this whole thing unfolded, it happened in such a way that the person that I nearly killed, was a well respected person who was innocent, who knew nothing, and that is actually disturbing me. If he was hit by that bullet, that would be a problem because he was just innocent, he was just a teacher.
That is what is disturbing me. I don't know how to put this really, because the explanation that you need, I think it is obvious, self-explanatory. Not unless I want to put lies, if I explain further, I will end up telling lies. There is no need for me to tell lies and mention people who sent me to do this, but because everyone was involved in this violence, everyone was effected by this violence in Tokoza and people were trying to protect themselves, it is very difficult to explain this violence, because people would do whatever to protect themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: I want you to look at page 276 of your application. Did you fill the form in yourself?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I see it is completed in English. Can you understand English? I am going to ask the Interpreter to interpret it into Zulu as well when I have read it, so that there is no misunderstanding.
Paragraph 10(a) asks you to state the political objective sought to be achieved. By that is meant you must state the political objective sought to be achieved by your actions and your answer there is due to the situation of violence, I was protecting myself.
10(b) asks of you to state your justification for regarding such acts or omissions or offences as acts, omissions or offences associated with a political objective. Your answer there is everybody has a right to life. So as an individual I was protecting that right.
Do you understand it, do you understand the questions and the answers?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to change in either those answers?
MR MOTSHWENE: I don't think so.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, these two answers indicate to me at least, that you were acting in self defence. Am I correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You were protecting yourself from attack on that particular day at that particular time and therefore you shot?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: There was nothing political about it? You were acting in self defence as any other person would do, aside from politics, when being attacked? You ran away, then you shot in order to stop what you thought was a continuance of an attack on you? Do I understand it correctly?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: When you acted there, you did not act with any intention of having any political achievement? Is that correct, you were merely protecting your own life because as you say, you have a right to life and you were protecting that right? If I am wrong, tell me.
MR MOTSHWENE: You are not wrong, but the way things happened there, you want to say that - you mean that you were going to take this case seriously if the defendant was one of the people who were attacking me?
CHAIRPERSON: No. Please don't try to guess what I am going to do. I don't know myself yet what I am going to do. I must still consider this application.
I want to put myself and my colleagues in the best position that we can be to properly consider this matter. We are duty bound to do so. Do you understand?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand.
CHAIRPERSON: Therefore I am asking you all these questions to clarify aspects so that I can see if I can consider the matter properly.
I have not made up my mind yet, neither have my colleagues. Do you understand? And for your information, we take every application seriously. I am trying to give you every opportunity to give us information so that we can properly understand the application. Do you understand? I am not trying to catch you out, I am trying to acquire an understanding for your position before we sit down and talk about it, consult each other so that we can make the correct finding. Do you understand?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand.
CHAIRPERSON: As I was saying, as I understand what you said here, and you say you repeat what you wrote, that in actual fact your actions was that for the purposes of protecting your own life, not for the purposes of achieving any political objective on that day and at that time? Am I correct?
MR MOTSHWENE: I won't agree with you because if this person didn't start this problem first, if he didn't start this with me, he was going to injure other people. I was not protecting only myself. The same people would injure the other people.
We were in possession of our arms, because we were protecting the community. We were not doing that because we felt good about it. We were doing it for our community and it happened that I met with this problem and it happened to the wrong person.
CHAIRPERSON: When you filled in this application form, question 10(a) did you understand that question?
MR MOTSHWENE: I can say if you don't get assistance from the people who are well conversant about this matter, maybe I can say I did not understand the question. Because when I look at it, I think he or she did not give the answer as to what the Commission or Committee would expect.
CHAIRPERSON: We don't expect anything. We must just read the answers. What did you understand by that question?
MR MOTSHWENE: You have to read it because I don't have a copy.
CHAIRPERSON: State the political objective sought to be achieved.
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand now.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand it in the same way on that day, when you filled in the application form?
MR MOTSHWENE: No, I did not understand it the same way as I do now.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, I find that strange. About five minutes ago, I read the same question and answers and you indicated that everything was in order, you did not wish to change anything. Do you recall that?
MR MOTSHWENE: I wanted to know whether you were interested in what I filled in this form, or whether you were interested in the way things happened or the objectives or whatever.
CHAIRPERSON: Look, I read out the question which was interpreted and the answer, correct? Do you recall that?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And I gave you an opportunity to amend anything that you wanted to, do you recall that?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And if there was something wrong with the question and you didn't understand it, it would mean your answer was incorrect, not so? But yet you said everything was in order?
MR MOTSHWENE: I am a bit confused now, because I am answering your question now, and this side I have to refer to the papers, I am a bit confused.
CHAIRPERSON: Then I am going to ask you the simple question again. What political objective did you seek to achieve in your actions when you shot at the two teachers who were still in the school yard?
MR MOTSHWENE: As far as I am concerned, I told myself that if I killed these people, or I have killed the IFP members, that is the answer that you need because those people as far as I am concerned, were IFP members.
We were fighting against, we were fighting with these IFP members.
CHAIRPERSON: One last question, when you said that due to the situation of the violence, I was protecting myself and everybody has a right to life, so as an individual, I was protecting that right, what type of question did you think you were answering?
MR MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Those two answers that you gave on page 276, question 10(a) and (b), the answers you said you did not wish to amend, you now suggest today that you may not have understood the questions properly, I am just asking you, how did you then understand the questions in order to give those kind of answers? What did you think you were answering?
MR MOTSHWENE: It will be extremely difficult for me to respond to that, because I am confused now. I don't know what is happening.
The way I explained this to you, I thought you were going to understand more about my intention and why I applied for amnesty. Now if you are referring me to the papers, something when I wrote when I was still in jail, that places me in a difficult situation because I've got to think properly, because I wrote this thing while I was in jail.
You know when you are in prison, you just fill in the gaps so that your application be accepted.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to my question?
MR MOTSHWENE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, there is one aspect that I need to correct on the applicant's application form, regarding his surname. It is spelt differently as in his identity document. The ID document it is spelt Motshwene. Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
CHAIRPERSON: We will refer to him as Joseph Bongi Nkosi Motshwene.
MRS NHLAYISI: It is pronounced the same, it is just that the other one is written in Ndebele, the other one is written in Sotho. It is Motshwene.
CHAIRPERSON: Which is the Sotho spelling?
MRS NHLAYISI: The one that I have just given to you.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say the other one?
MRS NHLAYISI: Ndebele.
CHAIRPERSON: And you would prefer us to use the one as contained in the ...
MRS NHLAYISI: In the ID document.
CHAIRPERSON: We will refer to him on that basis and also indicate he is also known by the other spelling.
MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. He is excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
