ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, excuse me, Mr Shane will be next. I’ve already asked him to come in and be ready. He tells me he will be ready. He will be next Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman I do apologise, I’ve asked him now again to be ready. I phoned him again and tell him please to be ready at two o’clock, so we can start.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there nothing else we can do in the meantime?
ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman. Mr Sibeko’s client is only for tomorrow. The rest of the clients of Ms Nhlayisi are in custody. She still has to consult with them. But Mr Shane’s clients are here and he’s supposed to be ready now sir.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) do tomorrow.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I would guess about four, four to five. Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: I see there’s left 11 applicants. Will we finish the balance today, the others?
ADV STEENKAMP: The difficulty is some of the attorneys need still to consult with their clients Mr Chairman. Some of them only started this morning to consult with them, but be that as it may.
CHAIRPERSON: I hope they’re not going to charge for consulting, if they’re charging for the day’s appearance. Yes Mr Shane?
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I’d like to proceed with the application of Mr Antony Maci. I do believe he’s here. I have consulted, I saw him, and I asked him to be here at two o’clock. I told him we’re going to start at two o’clock, I don’t know where he is now.
CHAIRPERSON: Where were you?
MR SHANE: ...(indistinct) that we can start with.
CHAIRPERSON: Well where were you at two o’clock, nevermind your client?
MR SHANE: ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Well, call your client. What happens to your other client that you wanted to call?
MR SHANE: I don’t know where he is Mr Chairman. He’s been here the whole morning, I told him to be here at two o’clock. I don’t know where he is.
CHAIRPERSON: What happens to his application now? It’s been called. You called it.
MR SHANE: Well if he comes I’ll - if he can stand down and if we can proceed with Mr Booi who’s now before you Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: I hope this standing down procedure is not taken for granted. I may just be in a bad mood and not grant it. What’s the name of this client?
MR SHANE: ...(indistinct)
INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane will you put your speaker on please? Your speaker, yes. Mr Shane what you said now was not picked up by the tape recorder, because your speaker wasn’t on.
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman this is the application of Mr Daniel Mahese Booi, reference number AM 7561/97 on page 81. Mr Chairman if I can just know the number of the Sotho.
INTERPRETER: Number four.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booi I understand you want to testify in Sotho?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?
DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: (sworn, states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Booi don’t worry about that mike, it will stay on now. Don’t worry about pressing again, it will just stay on permanently. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Mr Booi your identity number is written on your application 730405 5419 08 8. Is that the right number?
MR BOOI: That’s correct.
MR SHANE: Mr Booi you applied for amnesty for murder of Mr Dubula. Is that correct?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: You also mention in your application form about another unknown person who died. Is that right?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: Now you also had nothing to do with that person’s death and you therefore withdraw your application in respect of that unknown person.
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: You became a member of the ANC and also of the Self-Defence Unit for Katlehong or Natalspruit.
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: What was your function in the Self-Defence Unit?
MR BOOI: I was an operator.
MR SHANE: Now, this person, Mr Dubula, who you shot. First of all just describe what did you do relating to his death?
MR BOOI: Dubula was a police informer.
MR SHANE: You can speak Sotho, it will be translated.
MR BOOI: Dubula was a police informer and also he was a member of IFP.
MR SHANE: How did you know this?
MR BOOI: Most of the times whenever he disappeared from the township, they internal stability unit police would arrive and disarm the community.
MR SHANE: Right, now is it correct that, or explain to the learned Committee how your weapons were confiscated, and what part Dubula played in those weapons being confiscated.
CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with being in the company of the internal stability unit?
MR BOOI: It was a big mistake if you were seen in the company of the stability unit because they used to harass the community and kill people. Therefore, everybody who was closely associated with the police was not trusted by the community at that time.
MR SHANE: Right, and insofar as the deceased’s membership of he IFP is concerned, what did you know about that?
MR BOOI: Please repeat your question.
MR SHANE: What did you know about the deceased Dubula’s membership of the IFP?
MR BOOI: Most of the time Dubula was closely associated with the hostel dwellers, which was a stronghold of the IFP then.
MR SHANE: Right. Now, you say he was also a police informer, he used to tell the police something which caused you to lose something. Correct? What was that?
MR BOOI: Whenever Dubula disappeared from the township the police would come and attack all the places where we kept our armoury.
MR SHANE: That is where you kept your weapons?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: Then while we’re on that point, although you didn’t mention it in your application, you did poses weapons without a licence. Correct?
MR BOOI: They were not mine, they belonged to the community.
MR SHANE: Yes, but they were in your possession. There were weapons in your possession, during that time.
MR BOOI: They were not kept by me, but by the commander.
MR SHANE: Yes, but you sometimes used weapons. Correct?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: And when you used them they were in your possession for the time you used them. Correct?
MR BOOI: That’s correct.
MR SHANE: You never have had a licence to possess them. Correct?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: So you will also seek amnesty for possession for the times when you possessed those weapons.
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: Now Mr Dabula, you shot him?
MR BOOI: Yes, I did shoot him.
MR SHANE: How many times did you shoot him?
MR BOOI: I shot him once.
MR SHANE: This was in 1993?
MR BOOI: It was in 1993, I cannot really recall the month and the date.
MR SHANE: Can you tell was it towards the end, in the beginning or in the middle, of 93?
MR BOOI: It was in the middle of 1993.
MR SHANE: Were you alone?
MR BOOI: I was not alone.
MR SHANE: Who were you with?
MR BOOI: I was with Jabu Nkosi.
MR SHANE: Was Jabu Nkosi also a member of the Self-Defence Unit?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: Can you describe the circumstances where you found the deceased, and what you did before you killed him?
MR BOOI: The, some comrades came with Dabula and said that we have found him. There was no firearm at that time, and me and Jabu rushed to fetch a firearm. We came back with the firearm and some of the comrades were still holding him, Dabula. MR SHANE: Can you give the names of these comrades, or any of them?
MR BOOI: The ones I remember are Jabu, Frank and Mandla. The rest I do not remember because there were many of us.
MR SHANE: These ones that you’ve now names, were also SDU members?
MR BOOI: Yes, they were SDU members.
MR SHANE: So in fact when he was shot he had already been captured by other members of the SDU. Is that correct?
MR BOOI: That’s correct, sir.
MR SHANE: When you fired the shot at the deceased, had you know him? Had you met him before, did you know him?
MR BOOI: It was not the first time I saw him.
MR SHANE: When you shot him you were quite satisfied that he was an informer, and an IFP member. You knew that. Is that correct?
MR BOOI: That is correct, sir.
MR SHANE: Can you remember, you say you fired one shot, Jabu Nkosi was the other person who fired. Can you remember how many shots Jabu fired?
MR BOOI: The first person who shot him was Jabu. He shot him once, and he handed me the same AK-47 and I used it to shoot him once.
MR SHANE: Do you know where you hit him?
MR BOOI: In the head.
MR SHANE: Did you aim for the head?
MR BOOI: I just fired aimlessly, because I was not well trained.
MR SHANE: Did the deceased die there and then on the spot, or can you, do you know what happened?
MR BOOI: He died on the spot.
MR SHANE: What did you do afterwards, after you shot him? What did you do? First of all what did you do with your weapon?
MR BOOI: We took them, we took the weapon back to the commander and we went different ways because the police were already roaming the area.
MR SHANE: Now when you took the weapon to your commander, did you give him a report that you’d killed the deceased?
MR BOOI: That is so, sir.
MR SHANE: Can you remember what the commander’s reaction was when you told him you’d killed the deceased?
MR BOOI: He said that we did well if that was exactly what we did.
MR SHANE: Right. Now who was the commander?
MR BOOI: It’s Mr Msetla.
MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that’s evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MS GCABASHE: Now, Dubula, did he live in your section?
MR BOOI: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE: And did he associate with the SDU comrades, the members?
MR BOOI: Yes, he knew them.
ADV GCABASHE: And how would he have come to know the spots where you hid your weapons?
MR BOOI: When these weapons are stored they are stored by a group of all the people who patrol.
ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying Dubula used to patrol with you?
MR BOOI: Dubula was quite an unpredictable person. He was staying in our residential area but it was not his actual home. He was just a person who was happened to be staying there. And whenever he was present we used to be surprised as to where does he actually belong. He would pretend to be participating in all the activities.
ADV GCABASHE: But did he patrol with you?
MR BOOI: Sometimes he did.
ADV GCABASHE: Now, I’m not too clear as to exactly where it is that you killed him. Your evidence is he was brought to you. Where were you? And where did you take him to when you killed him? Help me with those aspects.
MR BOOI: We were at the Digula section and comrades brought him at Digula section and they told us that there is the Digula you’ve been long looking for. Where is the firearm? We went to consult our commander, and he gave us the AK-47. The comrades were still keeping him at that time. He was shot there at Digula section.
ADV GCABASHE: Where was this? Was this at a house, in the veld, where exactly?
MR BOOI: It was in the veld.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Booi you said he sometimes pretended as if he was patrolling with you. And at the same time you said he was in close contact with hostel dwellers. My question is, was he really an IFP member?
MR BOOI: Yes, he was an IFP member.
MR SIBANYONI: How do you know that he was an IFP member?
MR BOOI: He’s got friends residing in the hostels and also at that time no-one who was not a member of IFP would be able to enter the hostels.
MR SIBANYONI: Was he frequenting the hostels?
MR BOOI: Thank you Mr Chairperson that’s the only questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you’re excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
