FREDERIK CRAUSE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, we refer you to Bundle 1, page 164. The actual incident is at page 174 Chairperson. Mr Crause, you applied for amnesty in relation to the incident that is now handled, is that correct? Do you have your amnesty application in front of you?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the correctness and the truth of this as far as your knowledge is concerned?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In 1986, in December, where were you stationed then?
MR CRAUSE: I was at the Safety Branch in Zeerust, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And is it correct that Mr Du Preez Smit was your Branch Commander and that he was on leave and that Lieutenant Wehrmann stood in in his place then?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What can you tell us of your knowledge of this incident?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, the day of the 31st of December 1986, I received a telephone call from Lieutenant Wehrmann where he told me to depart to a place in the area of Nietverdiendt.
MR VISSER: It is a farm?
MR CRAUSE: It is a farm yes, Chairperson, and that an operation was being planned there in Ramotswe vicinity in Botswana.
MR VISSER: What did you find on this farm?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson on the farm, I think I was first on the farm if I am not mistaken, but later on Brigadier Loots, Lieutenant Wehrmann, Colonel Smit, Inspector Modise or Warrant Officer Modise and members of the Special Forces of the Defence Force arrived on the farm.
MR VISSER: Can you remember how many members were present?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, the Special Forces members were four, along with Mr Naude.
MR VISSER: Very well, did you personally hear what was being said there with regards to information or what was being planned?
MR CRAUSE: I only made a deduction Chairperson, that MK members during the same evening in Ramotswe in a specific house, that they would be staying there for that evening.
MR VISSER: Did you know what the planning involved and that an operation would be carried out against this specific house and what would it mean if you carry out such an operation?
MR CRAUSE: That the house would be attacked, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you have any part further and if so, what was your part?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson. I went with the group, this includes Brigadier Loots, Colonel Smit, Lieutenant Wehrmann, Modise.
MR VISSER: The people that you mentioned before?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR CRAUSE: And the Special Forces group. At the border post at Ramotswe, we went Chairperson.
MR VISSER: We know from Brigadier Loots that Modise had to go and identify the house for the Special Forces?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened then?
MR CRAUSE: Upon our arrival at the border, we found that - I am not sure, but I think that it is the Ramotswe river - that it was in flood, seeing as it rained a lot the previous day. Mr Modise was afraid to go into the water or to walk through the river and Brigadier Loots gave me an order to take Mr Modise through the river.
MR VISSER: Did you then help Mr Modise through the river?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened on the other side of the river?
MR CRAUSE: On the other side of the river, Mr Modise led our group to where we found a tar road. We walked alongside the tar road for about 500 metres. He pointed out a house to us. Myself and Modise then in reaction to a Commander of the Special Forces, we hid about 30 metres away from the house in a ditch, about half way from the house, about 30 metres I would say Chairperson. It was dark, it could have been closer or maybe a little further and it was not very deep ditch, it was just a ... The three Special Forces members then went to the house. The next moment I heard a window break, I heard an extreme explosion after that, I accepted that it was a handgrenade that had been thrown into the house. I then heard several shots of automatic rifle fire. After a while the three Special Forces members returned. I asked their Commander "did you find them" and he said he shot two people dead, a man and a woman in a bed.
MR VISSER: Could you see if the Special Forces members had gone into that house?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, I accept that they had gone into the house because the automatic shots sounded as if it was being fired inside the house and definitely not from outside the house.
MR VISSER: When they returned, what did you do then?
MR CRAUSE: We immediately moved back to the border and once again joined Brigadier Loots.
MR VISSER: Did you report to Brigadier Loots about what you had seen?
MR CRAUSE: I think I just told him that the person told me that he had killed two people, a man and a wife.
MR VISSER: Mr Crause, when before the operation, you heard about the operation and that the house was going to be attacked or would be attacked, did you realise that people could be killed?
MR CRAUSE: Absolutely Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was it told to you who those people were that were targeted?
MR CRAUSE: It was Sadie Pule and Take Five Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you know what their part in the struggle was?
MR CRAUSE: I did know that Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you agree with this operation?
MR CRAUSE: Absolutely, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I forgot to ask you Exhibit A, you did look at it, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: Exhibit A, that is the background document, I did study it Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You say that as far as you were concerned, this is what happened before 1983 or that what happened before 1983 is not relevant to you and you don't have personal knowledge of that, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You also do not have personal knowledge of the incidents regarding Lesotho and Swaziland which appears in that document, Exhibit A?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Do you acknowledge that the rest of Exhibit A is also applicable to you and do you ask that the Committee considers this evidence with its consideration of your application?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You would then ask for amnesty for the murder of a person or persons in this house, conspiracy to murder, damage and so on, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And lastly, there is a document Exhibit M, which has appeared in front of the Committee this morning, the first page of Exhibit M, what is that?
MR CRAUSE: It is a page that I set up after I had read the pages Chairperson, and I made a short excerpt of what is important with relation to this incident.
MR VISSER: It would appear as if your comment on Take Five's correct name be Aaron Mkwanazi is correct, because we have a declaration from him?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct sir.
MR VISSER: And the rest of this document, we understand this to be excerpts of information printed out from computers that were confiscated from certain ANC people?
MR CRAUSE: That is positive sir.
MR VISSER: Do you personally from your own knowledge, know how many people indeed died in this operation?
MR CRAUSE: I do not know Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And regarding information that later came to light, it was either a woman or a woman and a man?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you are now applying for amnesty for both?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: That is his evidence in chief, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Exhibit M, the annexures, this is directed at the Attorney, was this in your possession?
MR CRAUSE: I received it from Brigadier Loots.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a Police Officer?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, I am Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Where are you stationed?
MR CRAUSE: I am stationed at Potchefstroom.
CHAIRPERSON: In which division?
MR CRAUSE: I am the Provincial Commander of the Explosives' Desk.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you an Explosives' person?
MR CRAUSE: I do the bomb cleaning up Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you receive this information from Brigadier Loots?
MR CRAUSE: I think the date is on top of the document, the 30th of April of this year. If you see at the top of the document, I had drawn it up the same day and then I faxed it to Mr Visser.
CHAIRPERSON: At the moment you do not have access to this documentation?
MR CRAUSE: No Chairperson, I do not.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loots is retired?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you where he received this documents from?
MR CRAUSE: I did not ask him Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Mohlaba, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Crause, you said that you received a telephone call on the 31st of December 1986 from Lieutenant Wehrmann, what time was it approximately?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, it is difficult to say, but I would assume that it was about three o'clock in the afternoon.
MR MOHLABA: You subsequently went to a farm which you referred to as Nietverdiendt, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is positive Chairperson.
MR MOHLABA: Who owns this farm?
MR CRAUSE: I am not sure Chairperson. It was rented from somebody, I do not know who was the owner.
MR MOHLABA: It was rented out by, it was rented out to?
MR CRAUSE: To the SAP.
MR MOHLABA: And did the reason for ordering you to go to Nietverdiendt, was that explained to you over the telephone?
MR CRAUSE: They did not give any reason, it was just told to me that I had to go to Nietverdiendt.
MR MOHLABA: And you mentioned that you were the first one to arrive there and subsequently other people whom you mentioned by name, joined you. What was discussed when they arrived if anything was ever discussed?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, there was discussion between Brigadier Loots, Wehrmann, Colonel Smit and Mr Naude. I did not follow the discussion because I was in and out of there. The attack on a house in Ramotswe was discussed.
MR MOHLABA: So you did not participate in this discussion, did you?
MR CRAUSE: I heard some of it, but I did not participate in the discussion.
MR MOHLABA: Are you able to give account of what was discussed or can't you?
MR CRAUSE: I know it was mentioned that there was information that Take Five and Sadie Pule would spend this specific evening in a house in Ramotswe, Chairperson, and that the house would be attacked.
MR MOHLABA: Before you left to carry out this attack, was there a discussion of a role you and Modise are going to play and who was to do the actual attack on the terrorists there or the occupants of the house?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, Special Forces' persons would attack the house and Modise would point out the house.
MR MOHLABA: The reason for you going there, what role were you intending to play there?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, it is a known infiltration route and we also worked in teams when we worked there.
MR MOHLABA: Yes, I understand that, my question is, I am asking this on the background that Modise had a specific duty to do there, he was to point out the house and certain people were to carry out the attack. What were you assigned to do?
MR CRAUSE: As I have said previously, when we arrived at the border, the river was in flood and Brigadier Loots told me to take Modise through because he was afraid to enter the water.
MR MOHLABA: So the main role why you went across is because Modise was not able to swim, he could not cross unassisted, is that the only reason?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, was the only reason why I went through the river.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mohlaba. Ms Thabethe, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: One question Mr Chair. Exactly where were you when the attack took place, when the attack took place?
MR CRAUSE: When they attacked, I was about 30 metres from the house that was attacked.
MS THABETHE: So you did not participate in any way in the attack?
MR CRAUSE: No.
MS THABETHE: No further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Could you see the house from where you were?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, it is a type of suburb, but the houses are not close together. I would describe it as a traditional black township in that area, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a look at the house, you saw the three walking?
MR CRAUSE: I did Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you see them moving towards the house?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, I did Chairperson, they moved around the house.
CHAIRPERSON: This is the specific house which Modise had pointed out?
MR CRAUSE: Undoubtedly it was the house that he had pointed out Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you would say the three operatives moved around the house and they were out of sight?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson, they were out of sight.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this towards the back of the house or towards the front of the house?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, we were to the back of the house and they went around to the front.
CHAIRPERSON: Were the lights off in the house?
MR CRAUSE: The lights were all off in the house, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the operatives saying anything before you heard the window?
MR CRAUSE: No Chairperson, not at all, I heard the window breaking and then I heard the explosion.
CHAIRPERSON: And immediately after the explosion?
MR CRAUSE: I heard the automatic fire.
CHAIRPERSON: So it would seem that they went and attacked first with a handgrenade and then went into the house and fired shots inside the house?
MR CRAUSE: Absolutely Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: This all happened very quickly?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson, very quickly.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the operatives know who they had to shoot?
MR CRAUSE: I do not know Chairperson, but I would assume that they did know because Take Five and Sadie Pule was indeed mentioned there.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see whether they saw any pictures of Pule and Take Five?
MR CRAUSE: I was not present when this was done Chairperson, I cannot confirm it therefore.
CHAIRPERSON: From this discussion, you just moved with these persons. Did you, from the discussion, did you deduce that they knew exactly who they had to kill?
MR CRAUSE: I think that the leader of the group knew who they would shoot, but he spoke in a language which I did not know, but they were just along to launch the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: The other two, did they speak in a foreign language?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: In a black language?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And the leader of the group?
MR CRAUSE: Afrikaans Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he sound like a white person?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not know the leader of this group?
MR CRAUSE: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it the leader that said that he shot two persons in a bed?
MR CRAUSE: The leader told me that he had shot a man and a woman who were laying in a bed.
CHAIRPERSON: What type of firearms did they have?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, it looked like R4's.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this the type of shots that you heard inside the house?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Automatic and semi-automatic?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And it is just that as you have heard it, it would seem it was only the R4? Did it not seem that there were any other shots fired?
MR CRAUSE: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But it would seem that the people in the house did not fire back?
MR CRAUSE: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When you accompanied the group, what specific image did you have as to what would they do?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, I believed that they would attack the house and that they would eliminate two MK members.
CHAIRPERSON: Pule and Take Five?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So this was in your mind that the attack was aimed at these two people and that they would be eliminated?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And as we have heard during the discussions, was it also the impression of your colleagues at the scene?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson, although we were all aware that innocent people or other people could be injured with the use of automatic firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: The attack was launched against Pule and Take Five.
MR CRAUSE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you departed from the scene and the leader told you, were you under the impression that it was Take Five and Pule?
MR CRAUSE: I was absolutely under the impression that it was the two of them, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues? When you left after the attack, were they under the same impression?
MR CRAUSE: I believe that they were under the same impression Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But you did not form the idea that they were dissatisfied with this operation?
MR CRAUSE: Not at all Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: They were satisfied?
MR CRAUSE: Yes Chairperson, they were satisfied that these two persons had been eliminated.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you. Mr Visser, have you got any re-examination?
MR VISSER: None, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Crause, you are excused, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
