MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, with Mr Visser's co-operation we now call on my client, Schalk Jan Visser. His application number is 5000-9. That is the number.
ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please?
SCHALK JAN VISSER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Visser, your application is in bundle 1. The prescribed form is from page 132 to 134 and then the events that serve before the Honourable Committee, appears on page 136 under the heading of B, Johannes Mnisi, up to 138. Is that correct?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And do you confirm this statement as taken up in bundle 1?
MR S J VISSER: I do confirm it.
MS VAN DER WALT: And did you also see Annexure B, from page 148 to 155 in bundle 1? This is the political motivation. Do you also confirm the contents thereof?
MR S J VISSER: I do confirm the contents thereof.
MS VAN DER WALT: And then serving before the Committee is Exhibit A. Did you see this?
MR S J VISSER: I did, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Do you agree with the evidence as it is compiled there?
MR S J VISSER: I do agree with it.
MS VAN DER WALT: Does it relate to you?
MR S J VISSER: It does relate to me.
MS VAN DER WALT: Is there anything that you would want to leave out that is not relevant to you?
MR S J VISSER: The parts relating to Botswana and Lesotho, I would see something that is not pertinently relevant to me.
MS VAN DER WALT: And the evidence as compiled in Exhibit A is basically what appears in Annexure B of your application, is that correct?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Visser, you are currently retired, and you were a member of the police, is that correct?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: When did you retire?
MR S J VISSER: At the end of 1992, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you were then busy in the Security Branch?
MR S J VISSER: Not specifically at that stage, until '88, I was attached to the Security Branch and four years before I retired I was at Head Office in Pretoria.
MS VAN DER WALT: For how long were you stationed at the Security Branch?
MR S J VISSER: About 25 years, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And did you do any other special services while you were in the police?
MR S J VISSER: I did border duty on the northern border on the Angolan and Zambian border for a relatively long time.
MS VAN DER WALT: So basically you were stationed there on a permanent basis?
MR S J VISSER: I was stationed at Katima Malilo for five years.
MS VAN DER WALT: And during 1981, where were you stationed then?
MR S J VISSER: At that stage I was a Division Head of the Security Branch, Division Eastern Transvaal, or Mpumalanga as it is called currently.
MS VAN DER WALT: And as you also indicate on page 132 of your application that you were a member and also a supporter of the National Party.
MR S J VISSER: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WALT: Regarding the incident that serves before the Honourable Committee, you mention on page 136 that during '81, Johannes Mnisi, who was an ANC militarily trained MK member, was arrested. Was this told to you or were you personally involved with the arrest?
MR S J VISSER: I was personally involved in the arrest in the vicinity of Oshoek border post, on the road between Oshoek and Carolina, on the South African side.
MS VAN DER WALT: And you also mention sketch plans that were found. What knowledge do you have of this?
MR S J VISSER: I personally found it in his possession and it consisted of a plastic, cellophane type of plastic on which certain notes were made in pen.
MS VAN DER WALT: You continue and you say that Mnisi at a later stage gave his co-operation, or promised his co-operation to the Security Branch. Were you at all involved in his interrogation?
MR S J VISSER: I did not personally interrogate him, Chairperson, but I was - by the then Major Nel and Captain Visser, they told me that he promised his co-operation.
MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, was Mr Viktor in any way involved with you? Was he your subordinate?
MR S J VISSER: He was the Division Head of Security Branch Pretoria at that stage.
MS VAN DER WALT: And what was your rank at that point?
MR S J VISSER: At that stage I was a Lieutenant Colonel.
MS VAN DER WALT: So you were his subordinate?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WALT: You heard the evidence of Mr Viktor and also Mr Nel, do you agree with this evidence?
MR S J VISSER: I agree with it, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And do you ask that where it relates to you, that the Committee also regards it?
MR S J VISSER: That is true, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Certain planning was then done, as you mention in paragraph 2 on page 137, regarding the operation, that you were not involved with this planning?
MR S J VISSER: I was not involved with the detailed planning, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: But you at a later stage on that specific day, which we now know to be the 8th of December 1981, you then went to Oshoek border post?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you go there?
MR S J VISSER: Oshoek border post was in my command area and I saw it as necessary that I should have knowledge of activities under my command.
MS VAN DER WALT: And did you also have an interest in the information that Mnisi had given to the Security Branch?
MR S J VISSER: I did, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. And you also heard the evidence of Mr Gert Visser, as well as Mr Strydom. Do you agree with the evidence as it was given by them?
MR S J VISSER: I do agree, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: In paragraph 4 on page 137, you gave a short summary of what happened, but it would appear now as if Swaziland was entered twice on that specific evening. Do you agree with this evidence?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: After the person's return the first time from Swaziland, what happened then?
MR S J VISSER: They made a report that indicated that they could not contact the people and that the vehicle had then departed. And then between the members that were present at Oshoek, the decision was made that an attempt had to be made that Mnisi could contact his controller, George, in Swaziland again.
Major Nel, as he was known then, then went to Carolina with the aforementioned person so that the telephone call could be made.
MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have any part in calling Mr Strydom and the Task Force members back?
MR S J VISSER: Mr Strydom shortly after Mr Nel had departed to Carolina, they also returned as I accepted, to their base in Pretoria, because it was then decided that contact had to be made again and I followed them and I caught up with them from behind and on insistence of General Wandrach I asked them to return so that we could handle the further communication.
MS VAN DER WALT: And Swaziland was then entered a second time, is that correct?
MR S J VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And there where you were situated, could you hear any rifle fire happening in Swaziland?
MR S J VISSER: Personally I heard no shots.
MS VAN DER WALT: You, on page 138, paragraph 6, mentioned that it was necessary to take these steps in order to prevent that large scale sabotage with possible loss of life could be executed by the ANC. Was it your aim to arrest these people?
MR S J VISSER: It was the order to arrest these people.
MS VAN DER WALT: In your capacity and in the position that you held, would you have wanted to arrest these people?
MR S J VISSER: I would have given anything to be able to arrest them and to be able to get information in this regard and to be able to stop future sabotage and terrorist activities. As I understand this action, was it very necessary for the Security Police to gather as much information as possible in order to know what the ANC planned against South Africa at that time?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: So do you reconcile yourself with all the evidence given before the Committee? Is there something that you would want to add?
MR S F VISSER: I reconcile myself with what has been said so far.
MS VAN DER WALT: And the action of yourself and the people who committed these acts, did you feel and believe that you did this on behalf of the South African Police?
MR S F VISSER: I did, Chairperson. And at that stage, as you've also confirmed in your ...(indistinct) B, there was a revolutionary onslaught against the government of the day, that you had to fight against at all costs?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And your action you then saw in that light, in regards the South African Police and also the government. You also asked in your written application on page 132, that amnesty be given to you with regard to murder or any other offence or unlawful deed that might flow from these hearings and for this specific - because there are other applications in the same bundle, but for this specific bundle you ask with relation to murder because you foresaw that quite possibly if resistance was given, these people could possibly be killed. Is that correct?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: And also conspiracy to murder?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: When you executed these steps with the other people, did you get any personal gain from these steps?
MR S F VISSER: Absolutely not, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: Did you by any personal or malicious act do these steps?
MR S F VISSER: No, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: It was primarily aimed against the revolutionary struggle of the time.
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Mr Prinsloo, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: No questions, Chairperson - just one question, Chairperson.
From your experience Mr Visser, the members of MK who had acted, were they always armed or not?
MR S F VISSER: In general they were armed when they moved about, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: The weapons that were used, was it heavy artillery, automatic weapons, Tokarevs, Makarovs, AK?
MR S F VISSER: It was from Eastern origin, Chairperson, heavy artillery.
MR PRINSLOO: And the fact that these persons were killed under these circumstances, did it add to water down the struggle against the country?
MR S F VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, I believe that it did add to it.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Visser, you've indicated that you personally arrested Mr Mnisi, how did you arrest him?
MR S F VISSER: I did not say that I personally arrested him, I said that I was present at his arrest at the Oshoek/Carolina road, where he came out of the field and moved towards the road, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: Okay. I accept that you didn't personally arrest him, but you were present when he was arrested. So my question still remains, how was he arrested?
MR S F VISSER: He was stopped and I think there was a surprise element there because he did not resist. The police were in the vicinity were prepared that he would arrive there and they apprehended him and arrested him.
MS THABETHE: Was he alone?
MR S F VISSER: He was alone at that stage.
MS THABETHE: Was he armed?
MR S F VISSER: Not as far as I know, although he indeed had the map with the sketches with him.
MS THABETHE: You've also testified that a decision was made to arrest George and Brown, were you part of the decision that was made?
MR S F VISSER: Not with the initial planning, but I was aware that an order was given where wherever possible these persons had to be arrested, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: As far as you know, was there a plan on how George and Brown were going to be arrested?
MR S F VISSER: In general or in the broad, I knew that an arrangement for meeting in Swaziland would be made and that they would attempt to arrest them there or attempt any other action there.
MS THABETHE: Like I'm trying to ascertain the fact - considering the fact that you had foreseen that they would be armed, how did you plan to, how was it planned that they were going to be arrested?
MR S F VISSER: I was not involved with the finer details of the planning, with the planning that was done in Pretoria, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: Were you there at the scene when the attack took place?
MR S F VISSER: Please repeat.
MS THABETHE: Were you present at the scene when the attack took place?
MR S F VISSER: No, I was not present in Swaziland, I was at the bases.
MS THABETHE: Okay, thank you, Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I'm not sure what your role was in this whole matter. Did you - was there any offence on your part?
MR S F VISSER: I was part of the planning and I was the Divisional Commander of the Eastern Transvaal and the planning was done through my division where I was part, and therefore I was part of this conspiracy.
CHAIRPERSON: But you have just told us that this was things that people had done in Pretoria, where you were not involved.
MR S F VISSER: No, I was not involved with the finer details, but I was well aware that my fellow security members would act in my jurisdiction.
CHAIRPERSON: But were you aware of this plan?
MR S F VISSER: I was.
CHAIRPERSON: But were you not a participant in making this plan?
MR S F VISSER: Not in making the plan, but in order to facilitate so that Major Strydom could go through the border and return.
CHAIRPERSON: But there is nothing illegal in that, to drive after another vehicle and to tell them that Colonel Wandrach said that they must return.
MR S F VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were not involved with the murder?
MR S F VISSER: No, was not involved with the murder.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know what happened at the scene?
MR S F VISSER: I was not at the scene, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So basically, if I understand you correctly, you are the Head there in Eastern Transvaal and you felt that if these persons were to act in my area, I want to be there and to see what happened. Was that your attitude?
MR S F VISSER: I had wanted to be there if an arrest was executed. I wanted to know what the further planning would be with regard to future sabotage and what I could do to prevent this in my division.
CHAIRPERSON: If it was outside your jurisdiction you would not have gone to the trouble to go there?
MR S F VISSER: Chairperson, it's a policy that when somebody else wants to execute an arrest in your jurisdiction, then you want to be involved with these actions.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, to be familiar with what happens there. It would be strange if somebody comes into your jurisdiction and just acts on their own.
MR S F VISSER: This did not happen, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were aware of what had happened here?
MR S F VISSER: Yes, I did, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You do not know who was killed or was burnt to death?
MR S F VISSER: It was later reported, as the other members have also given evidence, that it was George and Brown and I have no further particulars.
CHAIRPERSON: And you cannot confirm or deny this according to intelligence reports?
MR S F VISSER: I would accept that it was one George and one Brown that was killed in this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Because it was written in these reports, that's why you accepted it?
MR S F VISSER: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to kill anybody?
MR S F VISSER: Preferably not. One does not want to kill your intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: But I speak of this incident.
MR S F VISSER: I did not want to kill anybody, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us assume it was not George and Brown in the vehicle, would you reconcile yourself with the killing of those persons, whoever it may be?
MR S F VISSER: I could reconcile myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Whether it could be proved or not, that it was trained MK members who were part of the armed struggle against South Africa?
MR S F VISSER: I could then reconcile myself with that action.
CHAIRPERSON: And then further, you would need further information before you could decide if you can reconcile yourself with this.
MR S F VISSER: Yes, I would want to be familiar with the fact whether it was MK members. And according to what I was informed, there was reasonable certainty that it was trained personnel whom the contact was made with.
CHAIRPERSON: And by the same instance, if it was innocent people you would not reconcile yourself with this action? If I understand you correctly.
MR S F VISSER: Yes, I would have had second thoughts about this if it was innocent people, bona fide innocent persons ....
END OF TAPE 1 OF 12.5.99
CHAIRPERSON: ... killed there and we really do not know who it was, there is very little information, but let's assume that people were killed there, do you reconcile yourself with that?
MR S F VISSER: When one wants to combat an onslaught Chairperson, which is directed at your country and the circumstances indicate as in this instance, that it was from the enemy who was involved, then I do reconcile myself with that, with this action and the action against these people.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you reconcile yourself with the fact that there were people killed there?
MR S F VISSER: To combat the onslaught, I would reconcile myself with that.
CHAIRPERSON: And was this on the understanding that it was George and Brown?
MR S F VISSER: That was the understanding that it was trained MK members and the name George was mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON: So it is on that basis that you reconcile yourself with these actions?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But if it is not so, then you want more detail so before you could decide whether you could reconcile yourself with this action?
MR S F VISSER: Chairperson, I would not want to be involved with the killing of bona fide innocent people.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Did I hear you correctly, did you understand from your colleagues that what had happened was that Mnisi was questioned and then he promised the Security Officers that he would cooperate with them?
MR S F VISSER: That was what was conveyed to me.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you think, this was a trained MK member and he made some promise he would help you?
MR S F VISSER: This was not strange, I was in the Security Police for many years, I had already arrested a terrorist myself. I had had contact with these persons and many of them in interrogation, promise that they would cooperate with the Police.
CHAIRPERSON: But will you not be sceptical with regard to the information that he gives to you or the co-operation that he gives to you.
MR S F VISSER: When he gives me information it is controlled and evaluated to see whether there is any value attached to this information.
CHAIRPERSON: So you would not just rely on this information and the so-called promise that he would cooperate with you?
MR S F VISSER: No Chairperson, I would proceed with the necessary caution and evaluate this information.
CHAIRPERSON: And if he tells you that at such and such a place such and such a person would be present, you would want to confirm this or have some indication as to his trustworthiness?
MR S F VISSER: Yes Chairperson. And I believe that is why observations were made Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I think that you also said that you want amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder, is that correct?
MR S F VISSER: That is what I asked for Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you part of a conspiracy?
MR S F VISSER: I was part of the set up there Chairperson and had waited for feedback after the operation was planned, therefore I consider myself part of the whole group Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand.
MR S F VISSER: Globally I was involved there, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER
ADV DE JAGER: You were asked the question or you were not part of the planning, you were not part of the murder, assume that you were aware that I plan a murder to murder innocent people and in your capacity as a Police Officer, what would your duty be?
MR S F VISSER: I would not accord with this Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Would you not be guilty of some offence if you did not disclose this?
MR S F VISSER: Yes, I would Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: So if you as a Police Officer know of some unlawful act, it is your duty to disclose this?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: And even if it was just the abduction, then you would be aware that some abduction was planned?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: And this is an unlawful act which you had to disclose?
MR S F VISSER: I had to disclose such, Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: And as you have said, you associated yourself with this plan?
MR S F VISSER: I did Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: You were aware that possibly persons would be fired upon and killed?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct Chairperson, that is why I was globally involved with the overhead totality Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: You told us when Mnisi came out of the bushes, he was arrested while he was on his way to the main road?
MR S F VISSER: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: With your experience, you say you were involved with other arrests?
MR S F VISSER: Yes Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever find that some of these MK members would walk on a main road with weapons?
MR S F VISSER: Not openly, but they would hide it at some place and fetch it at some later stage. When they reach the vicinity of a main road, he would not be armed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know if you would have any further questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Mr Visser, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS VAN DER WALT: That is the application, Chairperson.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, I see it is twenty passed eleven, I don't know whether you want to take a tea adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
