Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: For the record it's Tuesday the 18th of May 1999. It is the continuation of the amnesty application of WHJ Coetzee and Others, in respect of the matter - Simelane.

Mr van den Berg you had to consult and see whether you have any further questions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can I express my gratitude that we started a little later this morning. It enabled me just to give some feedback to my clients in respect of the consultations that took place yesterday afternoon and then early this morning. I do have some questions arising from my consultations with Gilbert Twale and Nodumo Nkosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

WILLEM HELM J COETZEE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: (cont)

Mr Coetzee what did Nokuthula tell you about what her mission here in South Africa was? What was she doing here.

MR W H J COETZEE: If I remember correctly she joined with various persons, among others the group which we handled with both a military political background and orders.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It was then a contact with a group called Scotch and Frank?

MR W H J COETZEE: There were also other persons of whom I can no longer recall the particulars.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you describe the approximate vicinity where they were situated?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was in Soweto, and I speak under correction, and the Pretoria environment.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I put it to you that Miss Simelane was tasked by Mpho, that is his MK name, his correct name is Gilbert Twala, to make contact here with the unit consisting of Scotch and Frank, and this was for the purposes of establishing a communications network. Is it your evidence that she would have given instructions to Scotch, pertinently related to the bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson her contact was directly and indirectly related to their military oriented activities and the RSA as an underground unit of the MK machinery in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Chairperson may I perhaps enquire, through the Chair, who Scotch and Frank are, because these are new names that we are now hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would assist me as well. Either you or the witness.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I clarify it. Is it correct that the person Scotch was Terror Mkhonza?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And is it correct that the person with the MK name, Frank, was a Sergeant Langa?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And they operated as a front MK organisation?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I am indebted to my colleague, Mr Visser.

The bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands, did these instructions come through Nokuthula Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was related directly and indirectly to the involvement of these persons and their infiltration and orders from Swaziland.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee please. Will you please try to give us a simple answer. Did Miss Simelane bring instructions for these two individuals to attack those places?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was target action, yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these targets specifically identified?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes these were identified targets.

CHAIRPERSON: So she came with the order that they were to attack these specific targets?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, and it was later cleared with a follow-up visit to Swaziland.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Twala has told me that the orders to Nokuthula Simelane were merely about the communications network and that there were no instructions with regard to targets and that there had been no operational instructions of any nature whatsoever. Can you dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Furthermore she only had communication with one other unit in the Vaal Triangle, and she was given pertinent instructions not to liaise with that group during this visit, can you dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can no longer recall the details of her visit.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She was sent by Mpho or Gilbert Twala. His recollection is that he sent her on Wednesday and that she arrived in Soweto on either the Wednesday or the Thursday. You would probably not know about that.

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said Chairperson, I can no longer recall everything regarding the details of her visit and her movements.

ADV DE JAGER: You would never know what he told her, what Mr Mpho told her, except insofar as she may have told you that she received these instructions. Were you present when Mr Mpho gave her the instructions?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Therefore you don't know what those instructions were.

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: However, she did make certain admissions to you later.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And these admissions, which she made to you are they correlating with the statement that is being put to you that Mr Mpho sent her on a Wednesday and that she arrived here either on the Wednesday or the Thursday. Do you know anything about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, it does not correlate.

ADV GCABASHE: Like then you also had agents Mkhonza and agent Langa who were part of your Swaziland network.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you may have gleaned certain information from them as well.

MR W H J COETZEE: Certainly in terms of the orders which were given to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you glean from them any information about when Nokuthula Simelane would be arriving? The questions that have been asked by Mr van den Berg.

MR W H J COETZEE: They were unaware of when precisely she would have come to the RSA. They only had information pertaining to the date, time and place of rendezvous.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then Scotch and Frank, or Mkhonza and Langa would not have known about where she would be accommodated?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That information about Duma Nkosi you only obtained from her once you interrogated her.

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did she provide any other information regarding Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson as I have said I can longer recall everything except that I know that the particular person was involved in cell structures which existed within the country and who all the members were I cannot comment about.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you receive any information from her with regard to the members of Nkosi's cell structure?

MR W H J COETZEE: Names were mentioned and there were also names which she later identified. However, I cannot comment regarding that because we did not address the Duma information thereafter.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just as the Security police functioned on a need-to-know basis the ANC also operated on a need-to-know basis.

MR W H J COETZEE: I agree with you, but they also made many mistakes, just like the SAP.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She was accommodated by Duma Nkosi. He gave her no information regarding the work which he had performed for the ANC and he pertinently did not give her any information regarding the cells which he had co-ordinated or the members of those cells. You cannot dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, we are speaking of her capability and her information which she obtained from her missions within the country as well as outside the country.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Nokuthula Simelane stayed with Duma Nkosi only once in his home.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot give any more detailed commentary about the Duma Nkosi issue.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you able, however, to indicate when the Nkosi issue came up during the interrogation? Very early on, very late in the interrogation?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall correctly it would have been during the course of the interrogation.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but please Mr Coetzee you are being asked when, now you say during the course of the investigation. This investigation took at least five weeks. You are being asked whether or not this took place at the beginning or at the end. Please listen to the question and try to help us and tell us whether this was during the first week or the last week.

MR W H J COETZEE: I beg your pardon Chairperson. I would say that it would have been immediately after the arrest and during the recruitment, that would have been during the first week, where we must have, and did, confront her with a multiplicity of facts, but primarily pertaining to the MK and military aspects which we were handling in co-operation with her.

ADV GCABASHE: The short answer is in the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, if I can recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And that was the first time that you obtained information regarding Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I think that he was well known in Soweto as a result of his activities.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we study your amnesty application you say that as a result of the information which Nokuthula Simelane provided there were two consequences, and I refer you to page 276 of Bundle 2.

The next arrest which has to do with, among others, the following, that would be the arrest of MK, Mpho, and we saw his photograph yesterday, and I put it to you that that Mpho is not the Mpho who was her handler. You cannot dispute that.

MR W H J COETZEE: The two identities of those two persons are not known to me at this stage.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Then you mention a Cheche, who was that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall the real names of the person but I know that he was a member of that particular machinery.

MR VAN DEN BERG: These arrests, when did they take place?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can no longer recall the precise dates, but I know that the first case was two weeks after we had abducted Simelane, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The first case, was that Mpho or Cheche?

MR W H J COETZEE: The first case was Mpho, if I recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the arrest of Cheche, when did that take place?

MR W H J COETZEE: That took place at a later stage. I cannot recall the exact date of the arrests.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it during October, November or December of 1983, or later than that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson it could possibly have started in early December and run through to January of 1984.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Because, as I understand it, Cheche was also known as Wally. Do you know about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, we only knew him as Cheche.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And elsewhere in the documents he has been identified as Ngide, that was his real name.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, yes, that is his real name.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you then dispute that he was arrested on the 25th of March, 1984?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have already stated, Chairperson, I can no longer recall the exact dates, but I know that I did arrest a person.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So it was a full six months after the abduction?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, those are the cases that I can recall.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And his arrest led to numerous other arrests including that of Duma Nkosi?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, I did not manage that investigation. I simply arrested the man and gave him over to an investigative unit who would conduct the necessary follow-up work and arrests.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you still recall where he was detained?

MR W H J COETZEE: I did not detain him, neither did I interrogate him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Secondly you mention actions taken against the Sasol MK sabotage grouping. That's page 276 that I am referring you to again. Can you elaborate on that?

MR W H J COETZEE: That is on the hand of information which was given by Simelane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And who were the members of this Sasol MK sabotage group?

MR W H J COETZEE: Their group and activities is no longer clear to me but I know they were a notorious group led by Barney Molekwane.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the information which you received from her led to this action against Barney Molekwane?

MR W H J COETZEE: We are speaking directly and indirectly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did it also lead to the death of Barney Molekwane?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. I was not involved in the incident.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do not have the precise date of his death because it is also not known to the family but it took place during November 1985.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment regarding that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Twala says that after he re-established contact with Duma Nkosi, well let me just take a few steps back. I apologise.

The order to Nokuthula was to establish contact between her and Mpho on the Friday before the meeting with Scotch was to take place. And you would surely not know about that.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, as I have already said I can no longer recall of her movements before the action.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There was no communication between her and Mpho on that Friday. You cannot dispute that?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. As I have said I can no longer recall the detail of the communication among the various subjects.

MR VAN DEN BERG: On the day of the contact with Scotch, and according to Mr Twala this was on a Saturday, I think that agrees with your evidence.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The incident took place on a Saturday?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: She did not return to the Nkosi household because she was in your custody.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: A few days later Mr Twala once again attempted to communicate with Nkosi and the information was then communicated to him that the lady had vanished. That she had not returned. I think I put it to you first that it was the next day, but indeed it was several days later. Once again you would not know about that communication.

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: He did not have contact with Miss Simelane again. She never returned to Swaziland. She never attempted to contact him again.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson yesterday, during my earlier evidence, I referred to the fact that we had identified Nkosi to manage her strategic replacements in Swaziland and to use the person as a scapegoat in order to manage our intelligence capacity and our group and to fortify it.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know anything about the relationship between Mr Nkosi and Mr Twala, do you know about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I no longer recall in detail what was told to us and I was not involved in later investigations, and that is why I cannot comment regarding that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You see they were together at school for a period of time. Later Mr Twala left the country for military training. Mr Nkosi completed his schooling in Swaziland. They were good friends and in Swaziland they re-established that contact. Mr Nkosi agreed to assist the ANC. He was a supporter and a member and he from time-to-time he would be in Swaziland to take instructions and to convey instructions to his cell structure. They were very good friends and the level of trust was very high. Did you have any knowledge about that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, not about the background.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the cover-up, or cover story which indicated that Nkosi was a problem would not have worked?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment about that. Depending upon how it was managed, yes Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know a Mpumi Dlamini?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I can no longer recall all the names because we dealt with a wealth of names which indicated true identities and MK identities.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What was the information which led to the arrest of Cheche?

MR W H J COETZEE: It emanated from our own intelligence capacity and the access which Mr Langa had among their ranks.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You stated that Nokuthula Simelane had two handlers. That would be Mpho, whom we have already discussed, and he was also known as Gilbert Twala, but the other handler you have stated that you cannot recall who it was. If I recall correctly you said that it was an Indian man and a white woman.

MR W H J COETZEE: She did refer to training in Mozambique in which a white woman and an Indian man had been involved.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And as one of the more high profile members of the ANC you would have remembered the name ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: .... for example Mac Maharaj or Indress Naidoo?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, the names which we identified were identified as a result of the terrorist photo album and on the basis of their MK identities. However, there were several persons whose identities we could never establish, if I recall correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you did not connect her with Aboobaker Ismail or Rashid?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, no Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman if you would just give me a moment to look at my notes. I don't think I have any further questions.

The hand-written notes which were taken during the interrogation and the notes which she made for you, were those filed?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And those were part of her file which was registered at the Soweto Security branch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That file surely does not exist anymore?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that because later I was transferred from Soweto.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When you were transferred?

MR W H J COETZEE: At the end of 1987.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And to where were you transferred?

MR W H J COETZEE: To Pretoria Head Office.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Pretoria Head Office of the Security Branch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then you would probably know about the evidence of Brigadier Cronje and his group who applied regarding the fact that files were destroyed?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was commonly known and this aspect is also confirmed by the media.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So if I understand it correctly there would be no written proof that she was registered as an informer?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot say anything about that because I was not involved in the process.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I cannot recall whether or not I put this to you or not, but if your evidence is correct then she would have returned to Swaziland and she would once again have been accommodated with her family.

MR W H J COETZEE: It wasn't about the family. Yesterday I gave evidence that the objective was to make contact and I indicated that she was to continue with the cell grouping of which she was actually a member. I also mentioned that she was sent in by somebody who was not authorised and that she did not tell this to her initial handlers and that they were unaware of the fact that somebody else was using her. And that is that in a nutshell.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Because her family never saw her again. She never arrived back at the home of her uncles where she lived from time-to-time and her family and her friends never saw her again either.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot comment on that. I cannot comment on what happened after her release and after her replacement in Swaziland. I have already said yesterday that appointments were not honoured and the circumstances for which she had to account with persons in Swaziland are unknown to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Coetzee how old was Miss Simelane when she was in your custody?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I would estimate that she was in her twenties, approximately 23 years old, but I cannot recall her exact age.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was her physical build?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was slender.

CHAIRPERSON: So one would not have described her as a strong person?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She was a twenty something, slender ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, I would agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that when you confronted her at the Carlton Centre she was nervous?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was when I joined in for the first time after we tackled her and grabbed her. That was when she was nervous. On various occasions she appeared to be nervous.

CHAIRPERSON: But from the very beginning?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, from the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: And upon various occasions thereafter?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, upon various occasions because it was about her own circumstances within the ranks of the relevant groups.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understand you correctly you said that as a result of that initial contact with her and her nervous reaction you held the opinion that you would be able to undertake a successful turning action on her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly, please correct me if I am wrong, did you slap her around in the vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: To intimidate her and to obtain her co-operation. I would refer to that as part of my own handling methodology, the manner in which I worked.

CHAIRPERSON: You first slap and then hit?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and I think that some of the members will testify that that was my handling methodology.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you slap her?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can't recall but I know that I have said that upon various occasions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No we'll get to that later, we are speaking of the first contact now.

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was just a few slaps?

MR W H J COETZEE: Well if I had to give a number of slaps it will be two or three.

CHAIRPERSON: Through the face?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, in her face.

CHAIRPERSON: And you felt that that was sufficient?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't necessary for you to intimidate her any further?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage she answered the questions that we were putting to her.

CHAIRPERSON: So basically it took two slaps in the face and then she would be sufficiently intimidated and co-operated with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was the beginning.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she do, did she cry?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't she fight back?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, not after the arrest and not at that stage when she was seated in the car with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. So then if I understand you correctly, for the first week she was repeatedly assaulted?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes in my presence. I confirmed yesterday that she was also assaulted by the other members. That this could have been possible.

CHAIRPERSON: No we will only discuss what you can give evidence about. In your presence during that first week she was assaulted numerous times.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I also addressed the possibility that I may have slapped her on occasion thereafter when the input questions were put to her but that was upon certain occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Those assaults during the first week, were they serious assaults?

MR W H J COETZEE: I have already stated that we bagged her, we hit her with a fist and we slapped her. There is the possibility that she may have been kicked, but at this stage I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was it serious?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I would say so to a certain degree.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was repeated assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson a person had to be broken first in order to rebuild them thereafter in order to establish a situation of trust between the parties.

CHAIRPERSON: So after that first intimidation in the vehicle she co-operated and then after that became difficult again?

MR W H J COETZEE: We handled her in various facets. She had a wealth of information with regard to persons whose photos were in the terrorist photo album, who had already been identified as a result of their external military training as well as information that she had heard, and information that she had gained from things she had seen, so there were many aspects on the table.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am asking you what her reaction was when you had her on the farm, in the middle of nowhere, in a single room, with a whole big group of you, did she not cooperate?

MR W H J COETZEE: No she co-operated. She co-operated to such an extent that we gave her the pen and paper to write with.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Regardless of that these assaults took place consistently during the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were serious?

MR W H J COETZEE: Upon various occasions in the first week of her presence on the farm, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And serious enough that you would be prepared to describe it as torture? That is what appears in Exhibit T.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would then put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: So you tortured her for a week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. It boils down to that.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many of you were involved?

MR W H J COETZEE: We rotated.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the average number of your police presence?

MR W H J COETZEE: Normally two to three. It may have varied to four. I can no longer recall but I do know with regard to the occasion that I was present there, we were only two, and that was during the later stages.

CHAIRPERSON: And all of you handled her?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall everybody participated.

CHAIRPERSON: So everybody participated in the assaults?

MR W H J COETZEE: Whether direct or indirectly or whether they struck her or whether they held her back, all of these things would have taken place with my authorisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words you were the member who was in control of the situation?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you also the chief attacker?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have already said I wouldn't say that I was - or least yes, I would say that I was the chief agent of assault. Yes, because I undertook the objective questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you assault and torture her the whole week long?

MR W H J COETZEE: We reached very sensitive aspects and I have referred to the fact that we had to break her and re-build her. We had to establish that situation of trust. We had to be able to access the entire circumference of the data which she had at her disposal. We had to get her to the point where she would implicate herself so that we could build upon that and give her future oriented tasks thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: But what I don't understand, and the reason why I am questioning you is that you said when you had her on her own on the farm there she co-operated, so why did the torture and the assault have to continue for the entire week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I have referred to the fact that we dealt with various aspects, various persons and cell structures of which she had knowledge, of which she had heard as a result of the fact that the ANC structures also made mistakes, just like the SAP did when it came to identifying structures and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this just simply part of the working method?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage it was necessitated as a result of the need to establish the total amount of information that she had at her disposal, and also with the purpose of rebuilding her and recreating her attitude towards the situation. The assaults must have a contributed to a certain measure in the achievement of this objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this help to rebuild the relationship between you and her?

MR W H J COETZEE: There was a certain point where you would place a person under pressure, or sometimes you would be concessive towards that person and build and you would be building in order to re-establish the attitude and the partnership between the two persons.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would do this by means of an assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was after assaults, it was only after assaults that one would become concessive and begin to recruit that particular person and have long and lengthy discussions with that person, and to indicate the other side of the story to the person and to give them the assurance, in terms of their future in the event of them co-operating or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she refuse to give information during the first week on the farm?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, but it was about the in-depth knowledge that she had regarding certain subject.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words was it necessary for you to assault or torture her in order to obtain information from her or not?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it necessary?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes it was necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: With all of them?

MR W H J COETZEE: The fierce psychosis which they had in terms of revealing the knowledge that they had was, according to my perspective, very intimidating and to a certain extent they suffered from a fear psychosis as a result of the feared action against them should they in such a case expose the military activities and networks Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So were there opportunities, I am just trying to establish what happened, were there opportunities or occasions upon which she refused to give you this information after which you would assault her and then she would give you the information?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said a few moments ago, at times when she did not give all the information which she had and retained certain information ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You would then hit her in order to get that information?

MR W H J COETZEE: In order to extract the in-depth information from her, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in order to extract that which she was holding back you would hit her, the whole week long?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. When I say the week I don't indicate that this was consistent. It took place on isolated occasions. It was not a fluid, continuous torture or assault.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the first week things improved?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the very worst you may have given her the odd slap here and there?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But nothing more grave than that?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that her face was swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: From slaps.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that she would have been hit so violently with an open hand that her face would have swollen?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it her whole face or what part of her face?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall specifically but what I remember is that it was her eye. I guess it depends upon which side of the face I struck her. I cannot recall directly but I do confirm that her eye or her eye bank was swollen.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one of the eye banks?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes. I cannot recall precisely in terms of which eye or whether or not it was both eye banks that were swollen.

CHAIRPERSON: So you hit her with conviction?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, I hit her hard.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that first week did you arrange any medical treatment for her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes if she had any kind of headache she would receive headache tablets.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get a doctor in for her?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR W H J COETZEE: Because her injuries were not open injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give her pain killers?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: If she had headaches, yes, because you must remember she was under a great deal of pressure. She was making revelations about her entire involvement as well as the involvement of others. I've already told you Chairperson that there was that psychosis of fear and it was a very well known fact that these persons who were involved had to be revealed.

CHAIRPERSON: But those pain killers would they have been provided after the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall specifically when but I do know that during the build-up process of the person we did indeed, or at least I did when I was there, provide medication in the form of headache tablets if she requested it.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long would that have been?

MR W H J COETZEE: That would have been during the reconstruction process.

CHAIRPERSON: So that would have been after the period of assault?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So during the period of assault you gave her nothing?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she complain of any pain?

MR W H J COETZEE: Her headaches, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about the first week.

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson I cannot recall anything.

CHAIRPERSON: She didn't complain of any kind of pain during the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: She may have complained to somebody but it wasn't to me.

CHAIRPERSON: So during that period that she was in your custody she did not see a physician?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I recall your evidence correctly, there was no reason to seriously assault her after the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So if anybody had seriously assaulted her after that week it would have been completely unjustifiable?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes if I had not known about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to you would it have been necessary to assault her to such an extent that she would be rendered barely recognisable?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: That would not have been justifiable.

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Or to assault her to such an extent that she would not be able to walk by herself, that would not have been fair?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you see whether or not she had bled at any stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: I remember after the arrest at the Carlton, yes, I think that she had an injured lip or nose, but apart from that, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a cut wound?

MR W H J COETZEE: It may have been a lip bite or something like that. I cannot qualify it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she not bleed again after that?

MR W H J COETZEE: No she did not have any such open injury or wound.

CHAIRPERSON: If there had been a consistent assault on Miss Simelane after that first week almost until the time that she left the farm, would you have been aware of it?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you could unequivocally tell us ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: ....that she was assaulted as we have described in a form of torture after which the reconstruction process began. There were more important things at stake.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can tell us unequivocally that after that first week there was absolutely no further serious assault on Miss Simelane in your presence?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and as I have already indicated that I periodically slapped her during interrogations and the compilation of documents in which she participated with regard to certain aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but that was less serious.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well I understand. Thank you Mr Coetzee.

ADV GCABASHE: On the same point Mr Coetzee, when then would you say the interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane stopped? At the end of the first week? At the end of the second week?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would like to say it in the following - it was a continuous, we were getting information from her and supporting it as she wrote it herself in the form of several statements. Information subjects which were identified which she put in writing which we had to use for later tasking and the management of herself as well as the agents who were already in the field. Does that answer your question?

ADV GCABASHE: No it doesn't. The first week, the second week - I mean you have now explained in detail ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: The interrogation in terms ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: The interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane you've explained that you managed to get certain information from her and you've also explained that at the time you had to do the rebuilding exercise, yes? The rebuilding exercise. Am I speaking too softly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Oh okay I will talk a bit louder. What I would like to know is when did the actual interrogation stop? She was at the farm for about four to five weeks.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say, as I have said, after the first week, but there were periods when I slapped her myself where we differed in terms of the subjects which she had put down in writing.

ADV GCABASHE: Now these slaps and this disinformation she was giving you, you don't call that part of the interrogation?

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say yes. I'd say it was part of the interrogation.

ADV GCABASHE: This is precisely why I would like you to identify the period where you felt you had the material information you needed and when the rebuilding started, because your plan was to send her back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes that's correct Chairperson. That was done when I was there periodically along with Sergeant Mothiba or with Mr Pretorius or Sergeant Mong. We have to keep in mind that Simelane was willing to cooperate with us. She had certain requests surrounding her own personal and operational security, so it was done continuous from about the third week Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: So let's get this right Mr Coetzee. From the third week at the farm you no longer interrogated her?

MR W H J COETZEE: We were still busy. I don't know how you interpret it but with the set-up and the establishment of the inputs Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: I really would like to get this absolutely clear because you talk of a rebuilding and I am just trying to put that into perspective. I have assumed that with the rebuilding you no longer assaulted her. Is that a fair assumption?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Right. Let's work backwards from the rebuilding because after rebuilding you released her, and that is correct as well?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's work backwards to when the interrogation would have stopped when she was now just orientating herself to being part of your new unit. Can I just finish because I really want this crystal clear. At that stage she would no longer fear you; she would no longer feel intimidated by you; she would be able to speak to you about your plan; the plans you had for her, etc, etc. That's what I am trying to get right.

MR W H J COETZEE: I would say that periodically during the third week Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now during these last two weeks in that case, because that leaves us with two weeks on the farm before you release her, what did you discuss? This rebuilding exercise.

MR W H J COETZEE: Her operational or her continual cross-border application as a source. That is what we discussed.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, now give us a little bit of detail on that aspect.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was communication; it was tasking ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Let me help you because what you are saying now you have said before in your evidence, let me just help you with specific questions.

You for instance had two agents in the MK structures in Swaziland, Mr Mkhonza, Mr Langa, yes?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes and others who were not mentioned.

ADV GCABASHE: Absolutely, absolutely. Now did you discuss, I'll start with these particular two whom we know, Mkhonza, Langa, did you discuss how they would be working with Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Mr Mkhonza was not part of our programme Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see Mkhonza is of particular interest to me because that's the man she met at the Carlton Centre.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson but our planning was on Langa.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying Mkhonza would never, ever contact MK Mpho again? Is this what you are saying?

MR W H J COETZEE: It could have happened in future Chairperson, but we planned everything around Langa. We brought in Langa to independently with myself, Mothiba and Langa to sit with her and talk to her. This joins up with the reason why later we left her with Langa before the final debriefing session and the instructions that were given before she departed.

ADV GCABASHE: So she knew Langa who was like her, an agent working for you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And she knew that she would be meeting Langa in Swaziland at some stage or the other?

MR W H J COETZEE: As one of the persons who would help to handle her, yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet you did not ask Langa to assist in monitoring her movements once she got back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: I think I've said it earlier on, any direct request in terms of this person or questions would have caused problems for the person herself because of the unknown to us Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No I, I...

MR W H J COETZEE: Questions about the lady by Mr Langa in Swaziland was very, very dangerous for the lady at that stage Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: We are not talking about questions about the lady by Langa, we are talking about Langa knowing everything there is to know about Simelane; knowing where she lived, essentially; knowing her contacts, because those were his contacts after all; and in that way being able to keep you in touch with how she was faring as your new agent. You didn't put any of that in place.

MR W H J COETZEE: Can the question please be repeated Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see I'll tell you where my difficulty starts. My difficulty starts with Simelane being left across the border at Oshoek, right.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: She could have done anything after that according to you.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the way I understand Intelligence networks to operate from what I have heard in these hearings, is you would normally have a safeguard, a check here, a check there to make sure that the person who is working with you is in fact your person isn't doing something totally different.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: In the instance of Simelane we haven't heard from you what steps you took to make sure that she was doing all of the things you had agreed with her about.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson this is where I referred to in my evidence yesterday to the meetings, the appointments or the instruction as we mentioned yesterday was that make contact and afterwards lay low in terms of the group who manage you and task you. Continue with your own cell grouping whom you are a member of Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Let me give you another little example. If she was having a particular difficulty did you say to her you can reach Langa, who is local after all?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I already mentioned my telephone number yesterday where she could have contacted me if there was any problems. If she encountered any problems which indicated that she could be identified and she could be connected to arrests and actions then she had to run. And we told all our agents this Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: With regard to other Intelligence services operating in Swaziland, Military Intelligence or any other units from the PWV area, who were you in contact with? Who did you co-ordinate your activities with?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was with head office Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but Military Intelligence that was busy in Swaziland you may have had other units from the greater PWV area or even Eastern Transvaal operating there, who did you co-ordinate your activities with?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson all reports were put in writing and from time-to-time they were co-ordinating meetings.

ADV GCABASHE: The information you got from Simelane were you able to talk to Military Intelligence and say this is what we are told, do you know anything about this? Can you confirm this for us?

MR W H J COETZEE: I never liaised with Military Intelligence. I do not know where the reports that we drew up were sent to.

ADV GCABASHE: So all the information that you worked off you did not confirm with any other unit? I just used Military Intelligence as an example.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was in writing and it was sent to head office Chairperson. Head office circulated it. It was sent to the different departments.

ADV GCABASHE: And head office was Mr Schoon at the time?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes amongst others Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Was Mkhonza in touch with Mpho after the arrest of Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: I can recall that we were slowly busy working out the handling programme with Langa and to bring in new persons in the structure across the border of whom Mkhonza did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: You haven't answered - really I was going to come to Langa. I just want Mkhonza ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: The question Chairperson I know that there was some occasion afterwards where Mr Mkhonza moved across the border but because of a motor vehicle accident and according to me that was the last opportunity that he was across the border.

ADV GCABASHE: So between the time of the car accident and the time of the arrest of Simelane or the detention of Simelane, how many times did you send Mkhonza in and out of Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson with regard to Simelane this particular grouping I could say that possibly twice but according to me once.

ADV GCABASHE: Now was he able to come back and confirm any of the things you had learnt from Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: For example?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, at the arrest of the first person shortly afterwards; the weapons which were channelled into the country for the purpose of target execution or actions against targets Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Then let's get to Langa, Langa was supposed to go and create the legend about the meeting between Mkhonza and Simelane, the plaster-of-paris story, yes?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You tasked him to go and do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I did.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he come back with a report?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And what was that?

MR W H J COETZEE: The scope, I cannot recall the scope of it but all that I know is that afterwards the credibility was such that Langa shortly afterwards in person was met at a point in Soweto after which we acted against that person, arrested that person with eight limpet mines as well as handgrenades and TNT. This person was given to the investigative team to deal with him further on.

ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying that that was because of original material from Simelane? Or are you saying it was Simelane and other people who gave you material that you then put together and were able to arrest particular people on?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes it was a corroboration of all the information.

ADV GCABASHE: A range of sources?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: A range of sources?

MR W H J COETZEE: As I said directly and indirectly Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just this "kop draai" exercise, how long would that normally take you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Some of the members are present Chairperson, depending on the person and depending on the target and depending on the person's personal capacities and circumstances, it varies from person to person and is based on his own situation or his acceptability within the MK structure Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: It essentially involved beating a person into submission and then rebuilding them and incorporating them in your structures?

MR W H J COETZEE: That was my modus operandi Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's just talk about safe houses for a minute. There were a number of safe houses in the PWV area?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you said you in your evidence yesterday that you were not able to - there was no facility you could take Nokuthula Simelane to?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Explain that because there's an article - just hold on a minute, your document, Exhibit T, has an article with a range of safe houses in this area.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson those years there were not safe houses, only later it came about when Soweto was incorporated into the RS programme and for handlers and Intelligence units the capacity was built up to set up such houses, to hire these houses and to use these houses as offices.

At that stage we had no, but no facilities available. The mere fact Chairperson that we worked at Custodum tells you, and should be clear to the Committee that it was risky to start with to have agents, to take agents to a police premises Chairperson. We had no, but no access in those years to safe houses at all. This only came about from 1987 or no from 1985 or 1986 we were allowed to make use of such premises.

ADV GCABASHE: So you used the quarters at the Norwood police quarters?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja, and your own house as well.

ADV GCABASHE: Ja, but you actually lived at the Norwood Police quarters at the time.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: And these people who owned the farm are they family members of yours?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja, family.

ADV GCABASHE: How were you related to them?

MR W H J COETZEE: Through my wife.

ADV GCABASHE: In-laws?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just finally on this business of leg-cuffing and handcuffing Nokuthula Simelane, you know I can understand the earlier period when you would leg-cuff her, handcuff because she was not one of you yet, but from about the third week you were satisfied that she now was going to do as you asked her to do. Just go over again why you continued to leg and handcuff her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Why I kept the leg irons on her Chairperson as I have said yesterday was one - certainty; and two, it was my agreement with her that at a later occasion I would remove the leg irons when we were away from the premises and with her return, placing back; that was my agreement, that was my modus operandi. I think Chairperson Mr Mkhonza, who is present, and Mr Veyi can tell you about a similar incident where the member was a member of a police unit.

ADV GCABASHE: So irrespective of the fact that a person had agreed to work with you, you would continue to keep that person in leg irons?

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage there was no evidence. There was in words an agreement between myself and this person, but this person had to prove herself.

ADV GCABASHE: But this is precisely the point Mr Coetzee. This is the same person who you then immediately released back into Swaziland. One day she is in leg irons, the very next day she's back in Swaziland. This is the person who you have not had time to test in any way, whose loyalty you have not had time to test.

MR W H J COETZEE: As I have said previously that was my modus operandi. I facilitated it, or the person knew that I would remove the leg irons the day we moved away from the place and other members can also testify that that was modus operandi. That is the way I went about my work. And people differ in their way of work.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying, and correct me if I didn't understand the evidence, she would use the toilet outside in the veld, so up to the last day she was on the farm she would walk in these leg irons to the toilet in the veld and walk back again, because this was your agreement with her, that those leg irons would not come off until she left the farm?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson because there were instances where people had run away, yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You needed interpreters during the interrogations, just a point I'd forgotten, what language did the interrogators use?

MR W H J COETZEE: English Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But you needed interpreters?

MR W H J COETZEE: When we, or can I refer to an example, when by the means of Mothiba or through a member specifically surrounding the recruitment, the orientation and the future it was always better with the authoritative figure Mothiba, to allow them to communicate in their own language.

ADV GCABASHE: She had completed her first degree at university, she was fluent in English.

MR W H J COETZEE: That is true, that is why she wrote down her own inputs.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet you felt for recruitment purposes she needed to be addressed in her own language?

MR W H J COETZEE: This is when we discussed the future with her and when Sergeant Mothiba, as the father figure, the authoritative figure, would be in discussion with her.

I can also imagine that with Langa's presence, who was a graduated person himself, they communicated in their own language.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one moment may I just ask you this one aspect Mr Coetzee. Did you ever have anything else but the words of this person that she will cooperate with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: I am not following you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You told my colleague when you spoke of the leg irons and the handcuffs that the only thing that you had was the words of this person.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes the words.

CHAIRPERSON: And that she had not proven herself ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: What I meant with this Chairperson she was not yet placed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand what you mean with that but I want to ask you at any stage did you have anything else but the words of the person?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes I would say Chairperson in terms of the first arrest where she indirectly and directly was involved. This was the infiltration where the members who have to give evidence before the Committee will say how they joined up with me while I was with Nokuthula and afterwards I went directly back to Johannesburg. And indirectly and directly she co-operated.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I should put the question more directly. Up to the stage when you let her go at Oshoek Border Post did you have anything else ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: At that stage I was to some extent, if I may put it this way, I was convinced that we will keep her co-operation on the grounds of what was in writing and what she had said and knowing that she knew that we are in possession of all documents in terms of certain individuals or groups who were disclosed by her.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the strength of her words?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, this was in writing. Some of these aspects were already evaluated and we knew it was the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: But the conviction which you had was because of the words that she gave you?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to have more clarity with regard to the transport of her from the farm, where exactly was she taken to? Where was she handed over in Potchefstroom or where? Where did you transport her to in the panel van?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson, Sergeant Mong will give evidence to that. We met her on the outskirts of Potchefstroom. Already at that stage we, myself and Supt Pretorius we were at another point with Langa.

ADV DE JAGER: I assume then from Rustenburg they drove to Potchefstroom. Is this past Ventersdorp?

MR W H J COETZEE: I believe so, that's the route.

ADV DE JAGER: You met them outside Potchefstroom?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Outside Potchefstroom there are two roads that lead to Johannesburg, the old Potchefstroom road that goes through Carltonville and the other one that comes directly south from Soweto, is that correct?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now where did you meet, where did you meet Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: On the outskirts of Potchefstroom in the industrial area.

ADV DE JAGER: Now at this stage who was with Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: I recall correctly Chairperson it was Sergeant Mothiba.

ADV DE JAGER: So the two of them transport the detainee from Thabazimbi to Potch?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: There you hand her over in your vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: No, in one of our vehicles, either mine or Supt Pretorius' vehicle, I cannot recall which vehicle was used that day.

ADV DE JAGER: And from there where was she taken to?

MR W H J COETZEE: By myself and Supt Pretorius with Langa, whom she already met was handed over to another vehicle directly.

ADV DE JAGER: Directly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Directly from the one vehicle to the other vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: So you drove with your or Pretorius' vehicle and you hand her over to the other vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Where was that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: That vehicle was also outside Potchefstroom in the close vicinity, if I can recall correctly close to the Vereeniging off-ramp, the Potchefstroom/Vereeniging off-ramp.

ADV DE JAGER: How far outside Potchefstroom?

MR W H J COETZEE: This was before the bridge, according to my estimation it was about seven kilometres outside Potchefstroom.

ADV DE JAGER: And is this on the southern road, this is the road back, in other words back to Johannesburg?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: That comes in south of Soweto?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: This is not the one where you drive over Carltonville?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson I don't know that road.

ADV DE JAGER: And were you present when she was handed over to Langa? Did Langa drive that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Langa alone or was somebody with him?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Langa was alone Chairperson, because Mothiba at that stage, the other handler was with Sergeant Mong.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did she sit in that vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: From what I can recall she sat in front in the vehicle and it was his vehicle that he was using.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle to which you handed her over where in your or Pretorius' vehicle?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was on the back seat Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: She was not loaded into the boot?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So from the panel van, where she could not see, she was transferred to a vehicle where she could identify her surroundings?

MR W H J COETZEE: Because of her own operational certainty we made her lie down on the back up to the place where we handed her over Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Did she still have handcuffs on at that stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, I already received her without handcuffs from Sergeant Mong and Sergeant Mothiba.

ADV DE JAGER: During her detention at Thabazimbi we assume she was there for approximately four to five weeks is that correct?

MR W H J COETZEE: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you estimate how long you spent there?

MR W H J COETZEE: That is very difficult because we were on a rotating basis. This was not the only aspect to which we attended to. We had several agents and we rotated on a continuous basis, but I was one of the primary persons.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you say you were there full-time for the first week?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and afterwards a lot.

ADV DE JAGER: If you say a lot, do you go there and you stay there for a few days or do you go for a day and come back and go back again?

MR W H J COETZEE: I move in and I move out Chairperson. I sometimes slept over but by the final part of her presence there I slept there most of the time.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know where Westonaria is?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know if she visited anybody at Westonaria?

MR W H J COETZEE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: I think Mr Lengene, page 413, says in his statement, paragraph 63 on page 412

"After Nokuthula is washed and dressed in new clothes she was handcuffed and leg-chained. She was put in a panel van with no windows at the back. We drove in a convoy to Westonaria".

Then it's not clear, the following sentence does not follow. It seems that a page is missing here, but I am not sure but I am not sure if there's a page missing here.

"Apparently by Willem Coetzee's brother, there she was taken to the servant's quarters room".

Now it seems that the intention may be that they drove in a convoy to Westonaria and there they went to someone, who was probably your brother, where she was taken to the servant's quarters.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that Chairperson. I do not know what Lengene refers to.

ADV DE JAGER: Who is Sefuti?

MR W H J COETZEE: This was a member of the force. I don't know if he's still a member of the force and where he is. For a short period he was with us.

ADV DE JAGER: So he was a member of your - he was under your command?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Then he says

"The last people I saw with Nokuthula was Willem Coetzee, Anton Pretorius and Sefuti".

MR W H J COETZEE: I have already said Chairperson where I have received her. I deny and I do not know what Lengene in this instance refers to.

ADV DE JAGER: But was Sefuti not present when you received her?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative Chairperson. It was only the handling group as I have already stated, consisting of myself, Supt Pretorius, Sergeant Mong - this is where his involvement stopped, and Sergeant Mothiba and Sergeant Langa.

ADV DE JAGER: Mothiba's involvement stopped with Mong?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative, Mothiba joined us in Johannesburg at the final debriefing and the transporting and the placing back of the particular person.

ADV DE JAGER: Hold on a moment. She is in Potchefstroom, she was handed over to Mong on the Vereeniging road, or to Langa.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did Langa go with her?

MR W H J COETZEE: They spent some time Chairperson, it was regarding the operational side of the matter, the motivation, communication, how she had to work operationally ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, how long was she in Langa's presence ...(intervention)

MR W H J COETZEE: Vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: Langa's vehicle or with him, before she went back to Swaziland.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson continually until the time that they departed.

ADV DE JAGER: Very well. They drive from this Vereeniging crossing, where do they go to?

MR W H J COETZEE: They moved in the direction of Johannesburg at a later stage.

ADV DE JAGER: Very well. They drove to Johannesburg, did they stay over in Johannesburg?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson, it was late afternoon, if I recall correctly it was between six and seven. We met them outside Soweto Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So you joined them again, what was her condition then?

MR W H J COETZEE: She was in a good condition.

ADV DE JAGER: And she drives in the vehicle with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: She is uncuffed and she is with Langa in the vehicle Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: And from there where did you go to?

MR W H J COETZEE: They departed after we had discussion with her and they departed for Swaziland.

ADV DE JAGER: Directly?

MR W H J COETZEE: Directly, the same day.

ADV DE JAGER: The same day?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So she did not stay over in Johannesburg with you?

MR W H J COETZEE: No Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee did you have a brother at that stage?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he live in Westonaria?

MR W H J COETZEE: I don't know if it was Westonaria but it was on the mines.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in that same vicinity?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, at a later stage in 1984, yes, Chairperson, 1985, 1985 yes he did live in Westonaria.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a house there?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, and if I recall correctly I can point out the house, there were no servant quarters there.

CHAIRPERSON: You are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased?

MR W H J COETZEE: If you can repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you, you are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased?

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot comment. The only comment I can offer is in this instance I cannot prove what I have said. I can make some assumptions based upon similar incidents. If I refer to this incident Chairperson I am still waiting for RS267 and 282 to come back. The information which I cannot prove says that they are dead. The one Quatro, the other one shot somewhere else. The way we know Supt Pretorius would later say, but this is some of the similar matters which we handled.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this instance you are convinced she was killed by her comrades in MK?

MR W H J COETZEE: They had reason to act against her Chairperson, as well as they had reason to act against the two members who were killed Chairperson. That is what I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: So you accept that she is dead?

MR W H J COETZEE: I believe on the grounds of several examples which I have just put to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

ADV GCABASHE: The last time you saw Langa and Nokuthula Simelane was where now? Are you saying it was somewhere near Soweto?

MR W H J COETZEE: Ja near Soweto.

ADV GCABASHE: At the police station?

MR W H J COETZEE: Negative Chairperson. A person that was recruited can never be brought to a police station because it would mean that we have identified the person. Langa was a deep cover agent, a member of the force whose identity was not known. Secondly Langa had used a vehicle which could not be connected with the police and it was registered, and I speak under correction, under his name Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you last see them?

MR W H J COETZEE: Outside Soweto Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on the road?

MR W H J COETZEE: Where we sat under the trees at the rendezvous point if I may put it as that.

ADV GCABASHE: You had made a specific appointment to meet at that spot?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: What was the purpose of your meeting them for the very last time at that spot?

MR W H J COETZEE: If there were any problems to discuss the programme in general and the communication and the attitude and to wish her well with the certainty that if there were any problems we could handle it, we could manage it, and communication was the key to success, discipline and so forth as well as money that was handed over Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now ...(indistinct) would have risen during Langa's last debriefing of Simelane?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: How long was that supposed to take?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was approximately, if I recall, an hour, maybe less than an hour.

ADV GCABASHE: And who were you with in the car?

MR W H J COETZEE: Myself, Pretorius, Mothiba, Mr Langa and Simelane.

ADV GCABASHE: And at what time would this have been when they departed to Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: It was very late afternoon, I think between six and seven, they departed after seven o'clock Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you discuss specifically at what point you should let her cross the border?

MR W H J COETZEE: Mothiba was an expert as to where the persons crossed and in the past with the other members present he had other people cross into Swaziland.

ADV GCABASHE: Was he going to go with her beyond the border?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And when were you expecting him back to report to you?

MR W H J COETZEE: The following day Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And is this what he did, report the next day?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: How far did he go with her in Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: He just accompanied her some distance inside I think, and I assume past the police quarters on the Swaziland side.

ADV GCABASHE: And he left her hiking on the road or something?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, and she went towards the road.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he indicate at what time they got to Swaziland?

MR W H J COETZEE: I cannot recall correctly, but I think it was in the early hours.

ADV GCABASHE: Early hours of the following morning?

MR W H J COETZEE: The morning, late that night, the morning she crossed into Swaziland Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: And your instruction to her was to walk or just to hike or just to find her way to wherever she was going to?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes, from there the circumstances, if a vehicle was there or if a taxi was there, or if a taxi was there, and if she met anybody she had to move on her own.

ADV GCABASHE: Otherwise to walk if it was the early hours of the morning, she must walk to the nearest town, Babanyawayo(?)

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you say she was in a condition to do that, physical condition to do that?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson I am convinced of that.

ADV GCABASHE: Despite being in cuffs up to that very same morning?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the 15 minute adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman Mr van den Berg intimated to me that he wants to rectify a statement which he made to this witness. I have no objection to him doing that.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman I, after Mr van den Berg, I just also, instructions that I obtained as a result of the questioning of the Committee from my clients which I just want to put to Mr Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Coetzee I put it to you that the arrest of Cheche took place on the 25th of March. My attention was brought to the fact that it was indeed on the 25th of May and I would like to put that to you, that it was actually the 25th of May 1984.

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes Chairperson, I will not be able to comment regarding the specific date.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey, what have you got?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman may I just deal firstly, Mr Coetzee has mentioned in his Exhibit T, paragraph 58, that there is a suggestion by Mr X that Simelane was murdered or killed and he said that he denies that. Initially I don't know who the Mr X is that he referred to, I assume it was in relation to the report, the newspaper report, the Sowetan, and I must just say that it is common cause that my client Mr Veyi was the person who spoke to that, well made, and he also said that in his supplementary application that he told the Sowetan as to what he knew at that stage.

In all fairness to Mr Coetzee I just want to put to him exactly what has been stated in his Exhibit T, which I haven't done previously and that is that - Mr Coetzee may I proceed. Mr Coetzee the evidence will be that, if I could just get to the relevant passage, Mr Veyi in paragraph 8 of his Exhibit T, that will be annexure A, paragraph 8, page 6, I beg your pardon Exhibit S. He maintains that he participated in a discussion thereafter with Mothiba and that Mothiba told him that you and Pretorius had shot this lady, Miss Simelane, and that she was buried near Rustenburg. I am simply putting it to you that his evidence will be according to what was told to him by Mothiba.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Then I would also like to put it to you that Mr Mkhonza will maintain that when he informed you about the instructions that he had received from Mpho he didn't know what the name of the woman who he was to meet at the Carlton Centre was. However, he did indeed tell you that it was a woman that he was going to meet.

MR W H J COETZEE: Chairperson according to my knowledge, as I have already testified, it was going to be an MK member of the underground structure.

MR LAMEY: Yes an MK member, but that it was a woman.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Then it is not precisely clear to me from Exhibit T where you mention in paragraph 45 Simelane's orders from MK was to undertake target identifications with RS243 and RS269. We know that RS243 was Mkhonza, did you hear this from Simelane or did you hear this from Mkhonza?

MR W H J COETZEE: If I recall correctly this came from Simelane.

MR LAMEY: Because my instructions from Mr Mkhonza are that he knew nothing about this. And furthermore my instructions are that he was also involved, or that he knew about the explosions which had taken place at substations to which he referred. He also says that this had nothing to do with the information which was obtained from Simelane.

MR W H J COETZEE: It was within the context of cross-border tasking.

MR LAMEY: Then the other aspect, according to my instructions from my client, Mkhonza and Selamolela, are that they would know that it was your modus operandus and method that when you were busy with a turning action you would keep the person cuffed to the very end, and my instructions are that their evidence will differ from yours on that point, especially Mr Lengene who will maintain that whenever the person turned, or gave their co-operation they would be released and no longer cuffed.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Insofar as what you maintain about your methodology they will give evidence that that was not your modus operandi.

The further aspect has to do with the safe houses and that you maintain that there were no safe houses in 1983, my instructions are that there were safe houses that you used at Klipspruit or in the Klipspruit environment, among others Lengene was interrogated at such a safe house.

MR W H J COETZEE: That was the accommodation of a commander's member.

MR LAMEY: Were there any such houses?

MR W H J COETZEE: Yes later in the Klipspruit area such a facility was made available to us, but it was used primarily for the accommodation of members.

MR LAMEY: And then where you also testify with regard to the arrest of Justice Ngedi, or Cheche, my client maintains that that had nothing to do with Simelane and that this was the result of an information that agent SVT66 provided.

MR W H J COETZEE: I deny that.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey. Re-examination Mr Visser.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee if we can just attempt to clarify a number of aspects you were asked by the Chairperson whether a point was reached at which continued assault would no longer assist in obtaining further information from Simelane. You responded to that and said that you consistently attempted to obtain in-depth information from her.

Furthermore you added that at the end you assaulted her from time-to-time, can you recall that?

MR W H COETZEE: Chairperson I cannot recall everything.

MR VISSER: But can you remember what I just put to you?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now what would the situation have been that caused you to slap her against the head from time to time near the end?

MR W H COETZEE: As a result of ambivalence of inputs.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee please simply answer in simple Afrikaans so that we can understand what you are saying.

Why would it have been necessary for you to assault her near the end?

MR W H COETZEE: Chairperson that would be when her inputs differed.

MR VISSER: In other words when you caught her out, when you caught her out with different information?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did that still happen towards the end?

MR W H COETZEE: To a certain extent, yes.

MR VISSER: And was the slap then intended to make her understand that if she wanted to return to the beginning there would once again be assaults or what was the intention?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also said that she was held in leg irons during the night, or at least just remind me here, the handcuffs were they removed during the day?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the leg irons, she wore permanently?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now the environment where the room was, the room that you referred to, how did that environment look?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a bushy area.

MR VISSER: So if she wanted to go to the toilet at night and she wasn't wearing leg irons what do you think may have happened?

MR W H COETZEE: She would have escaped.

MR VISSER: You were also questioned or it was put to you that all that you had to go on was her word that she would cooperate with the South African Police, is that correct?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also had other sources of information which could be used, one would assume, to control the information that she had provided.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you indeed do this, did you have other information at your disposal or to your knowledge according to which you could control her information?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes at the office.

MR VISSER: But did you have it with you in your minds there where you were interrogating her?

MR W H COETZEE: No, not entirely.

MR VISSER: However, could you or could you not control or verify what she was telling you in light of existing information which you had?

MR W H COETZEE: We could do that at the office.

MR VISSER: And did you do that?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes on a continuous basis.

MR VISSER: And is it a sign when a person whom you are attempting to turn gives you information which correlates with other information, is that a sign of the willingness of a person to cooperate?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: With regard to the information you have consistently referred to in-depth information. In your world of espionage and counter-espionage as it appears from this case, if a person who was your captive did not provide all the information at their disposal, what would the possible consequences be?

MR W H COETZEE: It would place the person at a disadvantage, ultimately.

MR VISSER: I am speaking of you. If you only get half of the story what would that mean for you?

MR W H COETZEE: It would put us on a wild goose chase.

MR VISSER: There is an application before the Committee from the deceased Mr Lengele in which he applies for amnesty, you are aware of that?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you have also applied for amnesty with regard to the abduction of a person by the name of Lengene from Botswana and the assault of this person?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that the same person?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you aware of the fact, as it appears now, that Mr Duma Nkosi indeed conveyed information to MK indicating that Miss Simelane had disappeared when you arrested her?

MR W H COETZEE: I am unaware of that.

MR VISSER: And were you aware of the close relationship that existed between Mpho and Mr Nkosi?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Which would have resulted that your cover-up regarding him would not have worked, are you aware of that?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Did you at that stage when you fabricated this cover story in which Mr Nkosi would be involved did you believe that this would serve as an excuse to Simelane which she could give to her commanders which would explain why she was away for such a long time?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: The Chairperson also asked you, you have now abducted Simelane, and your objective is to turn her, what would happen if somewhere along the way you had realised that she wasn't going to cooperate, that you couldn't trust her and that it was extremely clear that she was not going to cooperate, what would happen to her then?

MR VISSER: You then answered and stated that there was the possibility of prosecuting her, is that correct?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were there also other options?

MR W H COETZEE: yes.

MR VISSER: What were they?

MR W H COETZEE: To release her.

MR VISSER: You were at that stage in possession of, and you referred to it when you answered the question, you were in possession of an affidavit which she herself compiled.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would that have been something with which you could have threatened her by releasing her and saying that you would make this available, what was the position?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: So in other words this wasn't something that she would have accepted lightly after four to five weeks to simply be released?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Without any cover-up?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Commissioner Gcabashe asked you about this precise point whether or not it ever occurred to you that MK, during this period of time, may have developed a suspicion, may have become suspicious regarding her, did that ever occur to you?

MR W H COETZEE: It is possible.

MR VISSER: I am asking whether it occurred to you.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now at the rendezvous point there was talk of a cigarette box which you referred to which should have been on a table.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In Bundle 2, page 420, Mr Mkhonza stated that his arrangement with persons in Swaziland was that he would meet a person at the Carlton Centre - that's paragraph 2 Chairperson, page 420, right at the top - and that he was given instructions by an MK commander, Mpho, to wear a yellow shirt and brown trousers by means of which he would be identified at the rendezvous, do you recall that?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: But you do not deny that it may have been so?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: During the course of the morning certain questions were put to you, and I would just like to ask you about a few of those questions. Commissioner Gcabashe asked you a question about when the interrogation phase came to an end and the reconstruction phase began. And in this comparison there has also been mention of assaults. As I recall you maintain that it was continuous process from beginning to end. Are you then saying that you are not capable of saying whether or not there was a certain point at which you claimed that they may have stopped assaulting her in order to obtain information from her.

MR W H COETZEE: There was a point.

MR VISSER: And what point was that?

MR W H COETZEE: If I recall correctly I would say it was after a period of plus/minus three weeks.

MR VISSER: Three weeks. Would that be the three weeks that you referred to when you responded to the question?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And then it was no longer necessary for you to obtain information from her because you were satisfied that you had all the information that she had at her disposal.

MR W H COETZEE: We were still in the process of receiving certain inputs from her, yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee can we just begin from the beginning. You say that after three weeks the interrogation stopped, is that what you just said?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you then have all the information from her that you believed to be at her disposal?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Very well, what did you do then in order to obtain the information which you still believe she held at her disposal?

MR W H COETZEE: We tasked her to put this in writing.

MR VISSER: Don't you regard this as part of the interrogation?

MR W H COETZEE: No, no, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So if she wrote it was not part of the interrogation according to your perspective?

MR W H COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: The other question put to you by Commissioner Gcabashe, about which I would like to examine you, is that she referred to the normal thing that one would have expected and that would be the existence of checks and balances, that provision would normally have made and one would assume this, we who know nothing of espionage would simply assume this, that you would have established a monitor action to monitor her in Swaziland after her replacement there, that is now Miss Simelane, was such a monitor action ever devised or established by you?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And what was that monitor action?

MR W H COETZEE: There was a multiplicity of agents in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: And what about that?

MR W H COETZEE: Their movements would be reported according to the normal procedure by them.

MR VISSER: Did you give any agents in Swaziland the special order or instruction to look out specifically for her and to monitor her?

MR W H COETZEE: No, for various reasons.

MR VISSER: Well give us one or two.

MR W H COETZEE: One can only task an agent in terms of the access available to him.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR W H COETZEE: The agents didn't have that kind of access within that milieu.

MR VISSER: Maybe just return, I am trying to understand what you have told me. You said that there were agents in Swaziland.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I just want to know from you whether you specifically tasked or requested any one of those agents to monitor her?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Was there any particular reason for that?

MR W H COETZEE: They had no access.

MR VISSER: And when you speak of access what are you referring to?

MR W H COETZEE: That would be that they do not have access to a determined group of people.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might just interrupt, then what is the monitoring action that you did set up, which was your first response to your Advocate's re-examination?

MR VISSER: When I asked you a few moments ago whether or not you took any actions to monitor her movements your response was, yes. Now we just want to know what this action was that you took to monitor her.

MR W H COETZEE: That was by means of the appointments.

MR VISSER: Were those the only monitoring actions?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you have anybody standing on a corner somewhere near where she lived to watch her and monitor her movements where she would go in the morning, where she would spend the day, when she would return and so forth?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Then the final question from Commissioner Gcabashe was whether you later made enquiries, for instance with the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal whether they had heard anything about what happened to Miss Simelane?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: So would Eastern Transvaal Security Branch not, for example, have had a file on Miss Simelane?

MR W H COETZEE: It is possible.

MR VISSER: Did you make enquiries and ask whether or not they knew anything about her?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MR W H COETZEE: That case was not co-ordinated.

MR VISSER: What do you mean when you say it was not co-ordinated?

MR W H COETZEE: What I mean by that Chairperson is that we didn't go specifically to the Eastern Transvaal and make enquiries regarding this specific case.

MR VISSER: But you accepted that something had happened to her?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am not certain whether or not I heard your evidence correctly when you were questioned about the following, but Mr Mkhonza maintains that after Miss Simelane was grabbed he placed his leg and his arm in plaster of paris so that he would have an excuse to indicate why he did not honour the appointment with her. Are you aware of that? Do you know about it? Can you remember it? What was the situation?

MR W H COETZEE: No I cannot recall it.

MR VISSER: But you would not deny it?

MR W H COETZEE: No I wouldn't.

MR VISSER: Now let us return once again to the issue of the cuffs. When you were later once again examined on the leg irons by Ms Gcabashe and asked why it was that the leg irons were never removed you said there were three reasons. One was certainty in order to prevent her escape; secondly, it was your modus operandi and thirdly it was the agreement with Miss Simelane. Would that be the agreement to which you referred to earlier which denoted that she was concerned about the fact that the fact that she was working with the police should not be circulated too widely, was that to keep up appearances?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I have made a note here to ask you the following, but now I don't even know what the answer is. Do you have a brother?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Does this brother live on the West Rand?

MR W H COETZEE: He is deceased.

MR VISSER: Did he ever live on the West Rand?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In 1983 did he live in Westonaria?

MR W H COETZEE: I don't know where exactly he lived in 1983, however I can confirm that after '85 he did reside in the Westonaria suburb.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that he lived in or near Westonaria in a house where there was servant's quarters?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well be that as it may do you have any knowledge that Mr Mong and Mr Lengene, that Mr Mong apparently together with Lengene would have been with your brother, do you know anything about that?

MR W H COETZEE: No I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: However you have just said that Sefuti was not involved in the final handling of her legend and her replacement in Swaziland, was he involved?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Just in response to Mr Lamey's question with regard to safe houses, Commissioner Gcabashe referred you to the article that you attached to your affidavit, that would be Exhibit T, and reference is made to safe houses. This has to do with what was pointed out by Mr Veyi to certain informers and if I recall correctly this is the report in the Sowetan. Well my learned friend Mr Lamey says he doesn't think it was Mr Veyi, but it doesn't really matter because what is of relevance Chairperson, is that reference is made to safe houses.

Now I can read a date, 1995, but I can't do better than that on this article, you said Mr Coetzee, in the beginning, that you didn't have safe houses in order to launch a project such as the turning action of a cadre.

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And it was put to you by Mr Lamey that in the Klipspruit area Mr Lengene had been interrogated at a safe house after he had been abducted, can you recall that question?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Just tell us firstly, when did Mr Lengene’s incident take place?

MR W H COETZEE: That would have been 1982.

MR VISSER: Bundle 2, page 235 Chairperson. I see that you say there that it was approximately February '82. Did you then have a safe house at Klipspruit?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a house for accommodation.

MR VISSER: So in other words what are you saying, accommodation of who?

MR W H COETZEE: Accommodation of members....

MR VISSER: So in other words - let me ask you, was this a house, a flat or a room?

MR W H COETZEE: It was a semi-detached house.

MR VISSER: And was this used for the accommodation of police members?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And was there one of those that was available at that stage that you used for the abduction?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: I am talking about the stage when Lengene was abducted?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: Where did you question Lengene?

MR W H COETZEE: In Rustenburg.

MR VISSER: Not at Klipspruit?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: But was Lengene later accommodated there?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did Lengene join the police at a stage?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was this before or after he joined the police?

MR W H COETZEE: He became a member of the force shortly after that.

MR VISSER: And then he was accommodated there?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: In other words you would say that this was not a safe house?

MR W H COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: And when did the safe houses appear for the first time? You referred to Soweto's incorporation in the programme, in the RS programme, what exactly does that mean?

MR W H COETZEE: Where we received or had authorisation that there should be a specific house which was obtained or rented for the purpose of being used as a safe house.

MR VISSER: When did Soweto become part of this programme?

MR W H COETZEE: I would assume that it was in 1985.

MR VISSER: In either event it was after this incident?

MR W H COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: If you had a safe house at your disposal, near Soweto, what would the reason have been for you going to Northum?

MR W H COETZEE: If we had a safe house at the local Security Branch then there would no reason to go all the way to Northum, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you had to obtain permission for the use of this room in the house at Northum in order to perform this turning action?

MR W H COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Coetzee you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED