Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. For the record, today is Monday the 21st of June 1999. This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at the JISS Centre at Johannesburg. The Panel is chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter. I am assisted by Adv Gcabashe and Dr Tsotsi. We will be hearing the amnesty application of Michael Phama, amnesty reference number, 3155/96.

For the record - Mr Padi, do you want to just put yourself on record?

MR PADI: I'm Thabo Padi, I'm representing the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Padi. Mr van der Heyde?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I'm Mr Chris van der Heyde of the firm J H van der Merwe Attorneys. I will be representing some victims and some families of the victims. If you would allow me to name them I will also do that. It's

- Mr Pendal(?) Zulu. He is a victim of the so-called taxi thing;

and then:

- Mr Thokozani Mbatha, a victim of the stadium massacre

- Mr Japan Buthelezi, victim of the stadium massacre, - Mr Khulekane Msimanga, victim of the stadium massacre

- Mr Funda Ndwandwe: N-D-W-A-N-D-W-E

- Mr Shiyanzile Qwabe: S-H-I-Y-A-N-Z-I-L-E

and then:

- Q-W-A-B-E, Mr Ohlsen Dlamini.

That's all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Heyde. Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman, I'm Anina van der Westhuizen from the firm van der Westhuizen and Associates. I'm also representing some victims and family members of deceased. I will read out the names. I'm going to read the surname first an then the name. The first one is

- M-N-C-W-A-N-G-O and the name is Babalipi

- Mr Zita Mbukene

- Mpanza Richard Mbobozi

- Ndlovo Wilson Vuzimuzi

- Magwaza Skumbuza

Khubeka Anderson

- Mahlangano Mbule

- Mtchitwa Anderson

- Mtetwa Joseph Mtenyeni

- Manyele Miyikiseni Johannes

- Mathabane Hamilton

- Mathabela Praise God

- Mbatha Thokozani

- Khoza Zakaleni

- Shabangu Alfus Morgan

- Mazibuko Douglas

- Zulu Michlonka Zulu

- Buthelezi Makafola Bunguwake

- Eunice Tshabangu

- Ndlosi Samuel

- Mbatha Mbubeni.

I have some lists available, which I will hand up to you to make it easier for your reference.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. Adv Steenkamp, just for the record.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Andre Steenkamp, I will be the Evidence Leader in this matter. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We just want to apologise before we start, for having run a bit late this morning. We have been delayed by circumstances beyond our control, relating to the transportation of the applicant, Mr Phama, to the venue where we are sitting to hear the application. So we apologise for any inconvenience.

Yes, Mr Padi, do you want to have your client sworn in, or do you want to place anything else on record before we hear his testimony?

MR PADI: Thank you, Mr Chair. For the purpose of this hearing, there were actually three applications that were put forward by the applicant, three application statements. The applicant informed me that he was actually helped by someone else to complete these statements, so I'm not sure what the position of the Committee will be in terms, whether all the three will be accepted as the applications, or the last one will be the one that is taken as the application.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume they've all been submitted within the cut-off date, have they?

MR PADI: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, you know they would constitute, in the normal course of events, a composite application, so we would have regard to all of them.

MR PADI: As it pleases the Chair. I'm ready to have the applicant sworn in at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: In what language would he be testifying?

MR PADI: In Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: In Xhosa, yes. I'm going to just find out whether your client in fact hears the translation. Mr Phama, do you hear the translation on the headphones?

MR PHAMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Won't the interpreter just indicate to me, are we doing the translation only in Xhosa?

INTERPRETER: We have English and Xhosa or Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON DISCUSSES CHANNELS FOR INTERPRETATION

MR PHAMA: My name is Michael Phama, the other name is Kini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MICHAEL PHAMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Yes, Mr Padi?

MR PADI: Thank you, Mr Chair. The applicant is making application for the incident, one of the matters is the incident that occurred on the 8th of September 1991, which refers to the killing of the 16 IFP members who were on their way to the rally.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PADI: Yes, I ...(indistinct) to that at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Thank you.

Mr Phama, do you recall the incident that happened on the 8th of September 1991, that led to the killing of the IFP members?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I do remember.

MR PADI: Can you briefly give the Committee the background which led to this incident?

MR PHAMA: I'll describe the incident as follows. On the 13th there was a fight in the hostel, Kalenyoni Hostel. On the 14th, on a Tuesday, we left from the township, there were six of us. We left for Polla Park and when we ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Sorry, Mr Phama, do you recall what month is it, the 13th that you're referring to?

MR PHAMA: I cannot remember the month, but I remember the date.

MR PADI: Okay, you may proceed.

MR PHAMA: On our way to Polla Park we were prevented by the police from proceeding. We went back to the township. On a Wednesday, on the 15th, early in the morning at about eight ... there was another gate in my yard, a passage and the people also used that path. As I was taking a bath I saw people in my yard and my children helped me out because they were looking for a house that belonged to a Xhosa man. And these children were speaking Sotho, they told us, they said the people in that yard were Sotho-speaking people.

After that they went on their way and I went back to Polla Park where the other Xhosa people are. That was on the 15th. And we stayed there. On a Friday a guy from the industrial area came. A person came from the industrial area, a person who was from Polla Park. He came to tell us that the people would come and attack us on a Saturday, that is Mshayazafe hostel and Kwesini hostel. They wanted to surround us and put us inside so that we do not get a chance to run to the coloured area. ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry, Mr Phama, if you can just slow down, you're going rather fast, we have to take notes of what you are saying. Thank you.

MR PHAMA: We had to devise a plan after getting such news, as a group of Polla Park Xhosa people because this fight started by a fight between a Xhosa and a Zulu person. We had to devise some means. We told ourselves that we would go to Mshayazafe and fight with the people there, the hostel dwellers, so that when the people from Kwesini hostel come we will be facing them only so that they could not get a chance to go and attack us.

We reached an agreement on a Saturday, on the 18th. We went there behind the Mshayazafe hostel ...(intervention)

MR PADI: The people who went to attack Mshayazafe, were they only Xhosa's according to your knowledge?

MR PHAMA: Yes, they were only Xhosa-speaking people. They were Xhosa, Batsas and Pondos, but we refer to those groups as Xhosas. There were also Zulus who were residing at Polla Park and the Peddie-speaking people and Sothos were there at Polla Park, but they said they were attacking the Xhosas at Polla Park.

After seeing the police who prevented us we went to Polla Park, and after we had arrived at Polla Park, the people from Kwesini came, but they did not injure anyone from our side. I am not sure on their side whether there was anyone who was injured, but they ran away immediately.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just help me, you went to Mshayazafe, was there a fight at Mshayazafe?

MR PHAMA: Yes, there was a fight behind the hostel.

MR PADI: Can you repeat your last statement?

MR PHAMA: Yes. We fought there behind the Mshayazafe hostel. We did not get inside the hostel because the people who were in front were already fighting when we came there, as we were at the back. The fight took place behind the Mshayazafe hostel and the police came and they intervened and we went back to Polla Park.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, were the people of Kwesini, who came to Polla Park, again another fight ensued at Polla Park, is that what you are saying?

MR PHAMA: Yes, there was another fight against the Kwesini hostel dwellers after coming back from Mshayazafe, because when we had just arrived from Mshayazafe, the people from Kwesini came.

MR PADI: Mr Phama, during the attack of the hostels, what kind of ammunition or what did you have for your arms?

MR PHAMA: An assegai and an axe.

MR PADI: Were there any guns?

MR PHAMA: No, we did not have firearms.

MR PADI: Okay, you may proceed.

MR PHAMA: On the 21st, on a Tuesday we saw a flashlight at our direction as we were guarding the place. As we were still looking at that we heard gunshots. We fought there, but not for a long time ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Who were you fighting, Mr Phama?

MR PHAMA: We were fighting the IFP people at Polla Park.

MR PADI: How could you tell that they were members of Inkatha?

MR PHAMA: We saw them with their red headbands. During the night they were using the red, the white headbands and during the night they were using the red ones.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, during the day they were using the red ones and during the night they were using the white headbands.

MR PHAMA: On the 22nd, on a Wednesday, they came at about twenty to eight in the evening. They were there until half past two a.m. and they were searching the shacks and the fight was continuing.

ADV GCABASHE: Who came, is this IFP supporters again?

MR PHAMA: Yes.

MR PADI: Mr Phama, were you still fighting using axes and assegais at this stage?

MR PHAMA: On Wednesday we had two firearms with two magazines. We bought them from the Shangaan people in the township.

MR PADI: Okay, you may proceed.

MR PHAMA: We ran short of ammunition and we had to use the axes up until half past two a.m. The people from Mshayazafe also ran short of ammunition. That is when they left in the morning. They were going back to where they were coming from.

MR PADI: Proceed.

MR PHAMA: We were always keeping an eye, 24 hours a day, because we were anticipating that they could come back and attack again. After that they were attacking the taxis and we even told the taxis not to use the Khumalo Road, but to use the Vereeniging road. They were looking for the Polla Park people.

MR PADI: Who wanted the Polla Park people?

MR PHAMA: Mshayazafe hostel dwellers, the IFP members.

MR PADI: Mr Phama, is it the people from Polla Park who were attacking the taxis?

MR PHAMA: There were being attacked on their way to work. As the Khumalo Road goes via the hostel, when the taxi gets to Mshayazafe hostel it would be stopped and they would check if there was no Xhosa-speaking person inside that taxi. If there is that kind of a person, that person would disappear or would be attacked or something would happen to that particular person.

MR PADI: During this period, was there fighting only between the people from the hostels and the people from Polla Park?

MR PHAMA: They were not the only people who were being attacked, even the people, the township residents were being attacked because I remember one day, it was on a Sunday, they got into the township and we rushed to that township ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Who got to ...(indistinct)?

MR PHAMA: The Inkatha people. They got in there, it was on a Sunday. We went to assist. On our way back we got attacked by a policeman called Wessel, from Boksburg. He was shooting at us while we were next to the stadium.

MR PADI: You may proceed, Mr Phama.

MR PHAMA: On a Monday, as they had attacked the township also, they again attacked the township and the police were at Polla Park to prevent us from going out and they even told us that they wouldn't let us go out there and assist because they had already intervened there. And we heard gunshots in the township. It was very difficult for us to get out because the Polla Park was already surrounded by police.

MR PADI: And what happened?

MR PHAMA: People had died in the township, the people who were in the cooler bakkie. There was nothing thereafter.

On the 10th of December, as the people were preparing themselves to go to their homes, homelands that is, all the people from the township who were at Polla Park, and they went out at about 10 in the evening. They said they were going to attack the Mshayazafe hostel.

They went there in the morning of the 11th, at about quarter to eight in the morning. A car, a Valiant, came from the Basotho section. The person inside there said the people should prepare themselves, things were bad.

We went to Angus station and when we arrived there we saw a group of people next to the tank and they were approaching. We ran back to Polla Park because we were not, we were just a few in number. When we arrived there the other group came through Vereeniging Road with kombis and they shot at the people who were next to the brick factory. We went back to Polla Park and they came and there was another fight from quarter to eight up to 11 o'clock.

MR PADI: Who were in the kombis, where they ...(intervention)

MR PHAMA: They were armed with firearms.

MR PADI: Were they also members of the IFP?

MR PHAMA: Yes, they were IFP members, because those were the people who were attacking us.

MR PADI: Proceed.

MR PHAMA: We fought there up until 11 o'clock. The shacks were burning and we took these people out of the shacks and we chased this other group of people. When we were at Angus station chasing these people the police came and they just stood in front of us and then we had to go back to Polla Park.

When we arrived at Polla Park, checking on casualties, we realised that, we found that there were 17 people from our side who had died, mothers, grandmothers and some males.

MR PADI: What happened after that?

MR PHAMA: After the 11th, it was quiet, it became quiet and we came to realise that as there were children and women there we had to make another plan to try and attack them while they were still far away, not to let them reach Polla Park and use it as a battle field.

MR PADI: Were these strategies for future attacks?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You may proceed.

MR PHAMA: On the 8th we got another message that there was another attack that was coming and we enquired about the route that these people were going to use and they told us that they would go up if they did not use the railway line to Angus station, they would use Khumalo Road ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Who came with the information that you are going to be attacked?

MR PHAMA: We got that information from the people who were working in the industries. Those - we did not used to fight there in the industrial areas, we used to fight in the township and we used to discuss these things at work and we know if someone else was going to attack or some group of people is going to attack.

MR PADI: Proceed.

MR PHAMA: We decided to send someone with a car to go and check these people, whether they were going to use the route towards Angus station or Khumalo Road, and we found out that they were going to use Khumalo Road and we decided to go to Kululabaadjie and be there next to the houses and attack them before coming to the houses because we did not want women to be involved.

We were three in a car and we went through Khumalo Road and the when the car was in the township we alighted from the vehicle and we went to Khumalo Street. That is where we shot them.

MR PADI: Were you only three at the moment?

MR PHAMA: When we moved from Polla Park in the car we were three. If there were others who followed afterwards, I won't know because even when we went back to Polla Park we were still three.

MR PADI: Who were the people that you were with?

MR PHAMA: It Mahwawa and Joe.

MR PADI: Did all three of you take part in the shooting?

MR PHAMA: Yes, we took part.

MR PADI: Is that all that you can say to this Committee relating to the incident?

MR PHAMA: Yes, this incident of Kululabaadjie, I can say it ends there because when we got there in the township we saw another driver and then we told him to take us to Kalenyoni, in front of the hostel. From there we went to Polla Park.

MR PADI: Did you get any specific instructions, or were you relating to the attacking?

MR PHAMA: We would have meetings, all the people who were using firearms. Every evening we would have a meeting and plan and we had a person from the community who would be sent to go to look for bullets, our commander.

MR PADI: Who was that person?

MR PHAMA: It was Mbatane.

MR PADI: Thank you, I have no further questions relating to this particular incident.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just for clarity, you say Mbatane was your commander?

MR PHAMA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Commander of what, what unit was this?

MR PHAMA: It was a defence unit, those who were there to defend the community.

ADV GCABASHE: And which organisation was this defence unit affiliated to, or part of?

MR PHAMA: ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you an ANC member or supporter at the time?

MR PHAMA: I was a member.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you hold any particular position in that structure?

MR PHAMA: In the township I was serving in the committee and when I went to Polla Park, even there I was a committee member.

ADV GCABASHE: Just explain, the committee, what committee was that, was that an ANC, community, just explain that to us?

MR PHAMA: It was a committee that was dealing with the problems affecting the section. We had different sections at Polla Park. I was at F Section. I was serving there in the committee of F Section.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Padi, are there other incidents that the applicant would applying for amnesty as well? Are there further incidents?

MR PADI: Yes, there are other incidents, Mr Chairperson. The one relating to the murder of the four people and incidents relating to it, which were travelling on the Vereeniging Road.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I want to suggest that you lead him, lead your client on all those incidents, everything that he's applying for.

MR PADI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: And then we will deal with any questions that there might be and we'll come back to you and you can re-examine him.

MR PADI: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can go to the next one.

MR PADI: Thank you.

Mr Phama, can you tell us about the incident that happened on the 26th of February, that led to the killing of the people who were employed by the Rand Water Board.

MR PHAMA: At Vereeniging Road we had only one tap, water tap at Polla Park. That was next to the railway line. For about four days people who were going to the taps to fetch some water would be shot at. When we sent people to enquire and check the car, the cars that were passing by shooting, they would come back telling us that it was a white kombi, it's the one that was shooting the people. We told them to get the registration numbers so that we'd be able to attack only that kombi instead of attacking each and every kombi that was using that road.

MR PADI: Did you have any idea as to who the occupants of the motor vehicle were?

MR PHAMA: No, we did not know.

MR PADI: Proceed.

MR PHAMA: We would then after getting those registration number keep guard and check on what days of the week is that kombi using that road. And we were told that it was there from Monday up to Friday. We sat in the meeting and we planned and we came to a decision of attacking this kombi, because it was very difficult for people to go and fetch water, at least there should be a man who would be keeping an eye, because all of us we were working.

It was during the week in the evening. We planned to go up there in the morning to attack that kombi. I don't know who were the people who were placed at Angus station because I was with Philip next to the forest at Polla Park. This kombi came ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Were you going to wait for the kombi at different places?

MR PHAMA: We had planned that we would wait for it at Angus station and we would attack it there, but it happened because we did not move all at once, the others went there first and myself and Philip followed afterwards, but when we just crossed the railway line and then we just saw this kombi coming and they were shooting and we shot at it and then it stopped.

A traffic officer from the coloured area came and he directed the shots at us. We ran away, myself and Philip, to Polla Park and the people from Polla Park were armed with axes. They went straight to the kombi. I don't know what happened there when they arrive there.

MR PADI: Is that all that you can say to this Committee relating to this particular incident?

MR PHAMA: I heard on the news that four people died in that kombi. I got that news late, at half past six, a report that people died, four people in that kombi. That is the end of that story.

MR PADI: Mr Phama, I'm not sure if the Committee has any questions to ask relating to this ...(indistinct).

Mr Phama, you were also convicted for the murder of a traffic officer, an incident which happened on the 27th of March 1992. Can you tell the Committee what you know about that incident.

MR PHAMA: That kind of incident I heard because on a Wednesday we sent a group of people - because all the firearms that we had were confiscated by the soldiers, we had sent a group of people to go and get the firearms in Namibia.

They said they would rather go to Maputo. We said it's okay as long as they can bring the firearms. We sent three people from F Section ...(intervention)

MR PADI: Who were those people?

MR PHAMA: It was Joseph and Mahwawa and Speech. We sent those three people. They would come back on a Friday. They would leave on Wednesday and come back on Friday.

They came with firearms, but they told us that they were involved in a fight at Demar Paint. They were stopped by traffic officers there and they fought there. We had an agreement that if you happened to be prevented on your way, you should fight so that we don't lose the firearms and you lose yourself and get arrested after some time. You better fight if you find yourself in that kind of a situation. If you are defeated you cannot just surrender the firearms, you can just fight or die if you die, but the ...(intervention)

MR PADI: These people that you said were responsible for this incident, were they, did they regard you in any way as their leader?

MR PHAMA: I was the chairman of the F Section, chairman in that Committee.

MR PADI: And were you exactly the person that told them not - were you the person who actually told them to avoid the arrest and ...

MR PHAMA: Yes, it was myself and the other committee members. We told them that if they found themselves in such situations they should fight and they must come back barehanded because we would just say they had used the money for their personal use.

MR PADI: Do you have anything else to tell the Committee relating to this incident?

MR PHAMA: What I want to explain to the Committee about this incident is, I myself, I was following the policies of our organisation, that if you happen to be arrested you must not reveal the name of the other person who is not yet arrested.

The people that I was working with at Kululabaadjie, I never revealed their names to the police, as well as the people who were with me at the Vereeniging Road incident. Even the group of people who shot at this traffic officer, I never revealed their names. I did not want to implicate people because that was totally against our policies. If you are a soldier you have to die there and you must not implicate the other people.

That is when I made a mistake because after I was arrested, after forwarding the application for amnesty, I phoned Joseph and Joseph said to me they were the people who were going to forwards this application, amnesty application because they were outside. That is why I did not apply for amnesty concerning this traffic officer. That was my mistake.

MR PADI: During the trial relating to this particular incident some evidence was put forwards which indicated that you made a confession, confessing to this particular incident. Can you explain that?

MR PHAMA: That confession was not the same as what I said in Alberton, because the interpreter that was used there was the IFP member and when I asked why was that, they said I'm not supposed to ask such questions. I asked them how come that my interpreter be an IFP member and they told me that he was just an interpreter.

MR PADI: But did you make a confession to this incident?

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi, just repeat the question so that - the interpreter has missed a question because she was still busy interpreting what your client has said. So just repeat.

MR PADI: But Mr Phama, did you make a confession relating to this incident?

MR PHAMA: Pertaining this incident of a traffic officer I never mentioned anything about the traffic officer, I only told them about the fight that was taking place in Tokoza and the fight that I was involved in while we were attacking the kombi. This traffic officer incident was just put there after Speech was arrested.

When Speech got arrested he mentioned all the names of the people who were armed, who were using firearms at Polla Park. That is when the police said I had a number of firearms and a large number of ammunition and they said I was arrested in possession of those, of which that was not true.

MR PADI: Okay, thank you, Mr Phama. That's all the questions that I have.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Padi. Mr van der Heyde, have you got any questions?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I do, Mr Chairperson. At first I would just like to know from the Committee, the applicant has in his third - I just refer chronologically to it, in his third amnesty application he specifically denies that he was involved in the killing of this traffic cop. He had mentioned in his, now, that he later on people came out and said that he was - who gave the names of the people that were at this incident. I just want to enquire from you if this is not a - relating to this specific incident, if this is not merely a matter for appeal then and not something to be heard in front of this Commission? I'm just waiting for a directive.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it seems as if, on page 9 of, paginated page 9 of our record, the papers before us, paragraph 9.A. ...

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... paragraph 9.A.I.

MR PADI: Can I get the page number again, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 9. ... where he responds to the acts, omissions or offences ...

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I see that, Chairperson. What I looked at is page 11, number B, the last paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that seems to be his evidence.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Excuse me, as well as page 12.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well that seems to be his evidence. His evidence seems to be that he hasn't killed them physically himself, he hasn't been on the scene of the killing, but he was one of those people who had actually ordered the eventual killers to proceed to fetch arms and if necessary to commit this kind of offence. So you know, it looks as if he would be, on that version of his which is before us now, he would be guilty in any event, whether he's been present at the scene or not.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I would just then like to enquire from the Commission what weight of evidence will be put to an admission in terms of Section 112, which he has made in front of a magistrate during his criminal trial? Will the Amnesty Committee put any weight to that evidence that has ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll have take that into account as one of the factors when we look at the overall picture. Of course what we have is the evidence of the applicant at this stage before us, and without, we can address these things in more detail once we argue the matter at the end.

But let me tell you right now already that you know, we have had this experience that in view of what transpires before us and in view of the testimony that is brought to us, it's not surprising to have a situation where a Court record reflects a certain state of affairs and an amnesty application before us reflects an entirely contradictory state of affairs, where people will tell you that at the criminal trial they were intent on being acquitted, so they would often lie, they would often tell lies there. It's that kind of situation. So it's not surprising, it wouldn't be the first time that somebody were to tell us that you know, I didn't trust the Court, or I was trying to get off the charge or whatever.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I agree to being acquitted, but when a person has specifically admitted to doing some things, even if he knew at that stage that he was going to be sentenced, I have doubts if there could be put any weight to that, that would have been different from what is in front of the Commission now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as I say, we'll look at all these factors and we will obviously you know, when you address us at the end of the application, of course we can debate it again. At this stage you will have to assume that the applicant has applied for three incidents and you know you will have to, if you have any questions, you will have to deal with it on that basis.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I'll do so, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: And of course you know, you will be dealing with the incidents that concern your clients. That is really what we're interested in. We're not having a retrial of the entire matter, we're sitting under totally different circumstances here. So we would expect you to be dealing with what is relevant to your particular clients and so for everybody else with an interest in the matter.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE: I will do so, Mr Chairperson. The instructions of my clients are whether or not there was at that stage a political conflict, a real warsituation at that specific stage, and I would like to put the questions to the applicant from that.

Mr Phama, can you read or write?

MR PHAMA: I cannot write.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Can you read?

MR PHAMA: No.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you know that you have given in three applications, well three application forms to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I know that.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Has your representative read these three applications to you?

MR PHAMA: He tried, but there was no time. He came on a Saturday and that is a visitor's day. We did not have much time, but he tried to read it out to me and he even pointed out the mistakes that were in the applications.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: As these three applications are now before the Committee, do you want - you have already sworn that you will tell the truth, do you want to take anything away from these applications, do you want to add anything, or do you say that these applications as they are here, are the whole truth and that this makes out a full disclosure?

MR PADI: Excuse me, Mr Chair, I'm not sure about this line of questioning because I have addressed the Committee on this before and it was agreed that all the three applications will be taken as a whole.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, I think Mr van der Heyde is just asking your client whether in applying for amnesty he has made a full disclosure, in view of the composite application, as we had put it.

MR PADI: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: The reason why I ask this, Mr Phama, is that there seems to be contradictory sections in these three statements which you have made. Some parts of the one statement might contradict some parts of the other statement and that's the reason why I ask you if you know what you have said in these three statements.

MR PHAMA: It they are contradicting I cannot dispute that because it's more than one person who assisted me. I would ask this other person and that person would be taken and then I would get assistance from another person, because I did not write them on the same day. I got that message from the office that we are supposed to make amnesty applications and the person who had assisted me, the first one, was not there. That is why they can be contradictory. I do not know anything because there was no form that was left with me.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: In your first application you mention four dates. Now I accept it that you cannot write and I accept that these things have happened a long time ago, but these four dates, I want to know what are they specifying to. Is it in connection with an amnesty application to the so-called stadium massacre which happened on the 8th, or this in, does this have something to do with something else?

CHAIRPERSON: Which ...(indistinct)

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, it's on page 1, the very first page of the bundle, 9.A.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Perhaps you should mention the dates to the applicant.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: The dates that I am mentioning is the 18th of July 1990. It seems to me to be the 21st of August 1990, the 22nd of August 1990 and the 11th of December 1990. I cannot precisely figure out which year that is. Are these the dates for which you are applying for amnesty for ...(intervention)

MR PHAMA: The 18th is the date when we went to attack Mshayazafe hostel. It was on a Saturday. That is the first date. The 11th, 1990 is when we were attacked by the people from Mshayazafe, attacking us at Polla Park.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Why are you then applying for amnesty for that date?

MR PHAMA: We fought there and the people died.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And then the 21st of August 1990?

MR PHAMA: Will you please explain that 21st to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Padi, it might be useful just to show him the ...

MR PHAMA: The only date that I know about is the 11th and the 18th, and when this conflict started on the 13th, and when I left my house on the 15th. I know nothing about the 21st. There's no incident that I know about. I beg your pardon, I remember the 21st, it was on a Tuesday, the 21st, when the Inkatha people came to Polla Park, and they came again on the 22nd. It was on a Wednesday. That's when the shacks were burnt down. I made a mistake there. The 21st and the 22nd they came, two days, the 21st and the 22nd.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I have my reservations if these, the applications on these dates does apply to what we are here for at the moment, and that is for the three amnesty applications, one for this, that happened on the 8th of September. The one is the taxi incident and the one is where the traffic officer got shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it should be common cause that you know, people were shot in respect of the meeting at the stadium. I think you represent some of those people, and do you also represent somebody who was in the taxi, in the kombi?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I think it should be accepted as common cause that those two incident did in fact occur and that the applicant participated in those. So perhaps you should be dealing with it on that basis.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Padi, you will have to deal with the other dates, whether they are really relevant or not.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I will do so. If you could just give me a second please.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm very sorry, I'm very rude, if I may just ask a question. The attack on Mshayazafe has been dealt with before, but as far as I know no notices according to Section 19(4)(?) was actually sent out for this specific incident for this hearing. So I think technically there can be a question dealing with the Mshayazafe incident. The previous hearing - I'm just mentioning it for your notice. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, I'm referring you to page 3 of your first application, and that's also page 3 of the bundle, whereby the question was asked of you

"Was the acts or omissions committed in the execution of an order, or on behalf of, or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, state department or security force concerned?"

In it you say:

"No, we were defending ourselves against murders from the IFP."

Now the first question I want to ask you is, you said that you were defending yourselves, I want to know from you, do you understand what the meaning of defending means, in legal terms?

MR PHAMA: I know that if you mention defence, it means that you are defending yourself. We were defending ourselves because there was no person from the higher levels of the organisation who came to us to tell us that "defend yourselves", and there was no organisation that was giving us support.

We would try and get everything for ourselves. No-one from the ANC would come and assist us in that manner. Therefore we were defending ourselves. It's not that there was something that was coming from the organisation.

MR PADI: Excuse me, can I bring something to the attention of the Committee. Initially Mr Phama was asked whether he could read or write and he said no to both questions. So it would go without saying that he legal understanding of the word "defence", I'm sure that he couldn't get to know the legal meaning of the word "defence".

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I will not go any further on the legal meaning.

Mr Phama, you have just said that you had to fend for yourselves, that there was no help from the ANC, am I correct?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: But a few minutes ago you said to the Honourable Chairperson here that you were part of a Self Defence Unit.

MR PHAMA: Yes, we were the Self Defence Unit. We were defending our community, Tokoza community.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was this Self Defence Unit not a structure that was put there from the African National Congress?

MR PHAMA: No, the ANC had not intervened at the time.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you have a commander at that time?

MR PHAMA: Yes, we had Mbatane as our commander.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: On page 12 of the bundle, that is your third application, you say

"The name of my commander is Mr Johnson."

Is that the same person as Mr Mbatane?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is his name.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How does it come that he has two names, do you know?

MR PHAMA: I think Johnson's name, I learnt later that his name was Johnson. We never used our names. I got that when I was arrested in Pretoria, that his first christian name is Johnson.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, it is 1 o'clock at the moment, I do not know if you would like me to continue. I still have quite a lot of questions to put to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I wonder if you shouldn't just continue, Mr van der Heyde, we've lost quite a bit of time this morning and you know, we have quite a number of matters on this roll that we've actually go to hear. So let's carry on for a while and I'll indicate when we will take an adjournment.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, in your chief evidence you said that there was, you mentioned a few dates. You said that there were quite a few attacks and war situations going on between the ANC and supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Now I couldn't specifically make out, these dates, do they follow chronologically just up until before the 8th of September, when the 16 IFP people were killed in Khumalo Street, or did these things happen a year or about a half year before this?

MR PHAMA: From 1990 up till 1991 - from 1990, the dates from 1990 up to 1991, on the 8th of September. Those were the dates and this incident of Vereeniging Road. But I cannot remember whether it was in 1991 or 1992, but it is somewhere there. That did not take place in 1990. It's between 1991 and 1992. I cannot remember the month.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I understand that you cannot remember the dates, what I want to know from you is, when you just spoke in chief, you talked about a lot of things that went on. You talked about fightings between Inkatha and the Xhosas at different places, but this incident of the 8th of September, when does this incident fit into all these other dates that you have mentioned? Is thereafter, is it there before, when does this fit into each other? Is it all an ongoing war, or what is your comment on this?

MR PHAMA: This war was ongoing in Tokoza.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Phama, whether the incidents you have talked about between yourselves and the Mshayazafe residents and the Kwesini residents, all of those incidents occurred before the rally, the stadium incident that you are applying for today, or might some of them occurred after? That's really what the question is. That history, was it on that background, was it before the 8th, which is the date of the incident where 16 were killed, or afterwards?

MR PHAMA: The incident of Mshayazafe on the 18th, it was the first incident. The stadium incident took place in 1991 and the one of the 18th took place in 1990.

ADV GCABASHE: And then some of the others that you've related to us, would all of them have occurred in 1990, or would some of them have occurred after the 16 people were killed at Khumalo Street?

MR PHAMA: The people, the 16 people who died in Khumalo, that incident took place after Polla Park was attacked more than once and this incident of the 11th in 1990, it was - the people at the stadium were attacked after the 11th of 1990. These people were attacked at the stadium in 1991.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, why I ask this question to you is because of the following reason. The African National Congress, and specifically the Tokoza/Polla Park ANC Branch, submitted a submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I'm going to read to you a paragraph which they have submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and I would like you to comment on that please. It is page 17 of the bundle named "Background Information - Tokoza Conflict". It reads as follows

"January 1991 saw a lull in the violence and this relatively peaceful period lasted until August of 1991. So we are speaking here of roughly eight months. On September the 8th, 1991, the IFP organised a rally at the Tokoza stadium. The marchers, who were armed, were attacked by members of the Polla Park SDU, shortly before reaching the stadium."

Now what I want to ask you about this is, the ANC branch of Tokoza themselves submitted to the TRC, that there was a lull, in other words there was a halt in the violence between January and September. That is eight months, Sir, why do you say that you had to defend yourselves if the ANC themselves say that there were no attacks between these people and that the attack on the 8th of September was the first uprising in violence again in about eight months time. Could you answer me on that?

MR PHAMA: First of all I would like to ask this question. As it is written in that document, is there any person who can tell me who compiled that report because most of the people at Polla Park or Tokoza were the people who had run away. After coming back they came and they had some positions.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you want me to answer on that?

MR PHAMA: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: This document is a document that was submitted by the ANC themselves. It says

"For further information contact Mr Louis Sebeko, or Mr Duma Nkosi."

MR PHAMA: I don't even know that Sebeko. I don't know those people.

DR TSOTSI: Is that document signed?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Sir, the document that I have in front of me is what the TRC themselves gave to me. I cannot see here that it is signed, no.

DR TSOTSI: It's not signed. So you really don't know who submitted it? Yourself, maybe the TRC knows, I don't know.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I take it that the TRC will know.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Phama, the central question though is, there is a document that says it was quiet between January and August 1991, you have told us about incidents of violence. And the attorney on the other side is simply asking you to give your opinion as to why you say there had been this ongoing violence, when there is a document that says something different.

MR PHAMA: The reason for me to say that, even the people who had compiled that report, I don't know them. It is because there was no calmness in Tokoza, even in 1993 when I was arrested, people had died. It only came to an end after the vote. That is why I deny what is said in that document. Because I don't even know the people who compiled the report.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I want to know from you, was there a lull, in other words a halt in the violence for a couple of months before this incident where you and, according to you, two other people went on a shooting parade against the IFP, or was there ongoing violence?

MR PHAMA: As far as I'm concerned, it's only after that rally, I don't know, but I heard them saying that there was a rally. At least there was a halt after the rally, but the people continued dying because the taxis at Khumalo Street were not working, they were not operating because the people were dying. But there was no halt, but there was violence. The killings were underground, they people wouldn't attack during the day and if they would see a person walking alone, that particular person would be killed.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I'm sorry, Mr Phama, maybe the interpreter has interpreted it to you incorrectly, or maybe I did not put it correctly. I asked you, before the incident where the 16 IFP members were killed in Khumalo Street, before that, in other words the eight months before it, was there a lot of violence, or was it as the statement says, was it quiet?

MR PHAMA: It was not quiet at all, we were attacked, we were always attacked.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Why I ask these question is, you say that you had to defend yourselves, now a person can only defend himself if he's being attacked, am I correct with that?

MR PHAMA: At Polla Park we were not only attacked by IFP, even the police would attack us. They were not alone. On the 27th in 1992, I was shot at by the police, not IFP members. We were attacked by both IFP and the police. There was no pause, we were attacked all the time and the people who had died in 1993, were attacked by soldiers, not IFP.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, you misunderstand me, I asked you specifically relating to this incident on the 8th of September, where you said you had to defend yourselves against an attack of the IFP, on that day. Were you attacked by the IFP on that day or not?

MR PHAMA: You mean on the 8th?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: On the 8th of September 1991, where the 16 IFP people were murdered in Khumalo Street.

MR PHAMA: We were not attacked on that particular day by the IFP, we were told that they were coming to attack us. We decided to fight them from a distance because we knew that at Polla Park there were women and children. We decided to go and attack them at a distance because we did not want them to come closer because they could kill the people who cannot fight for themselves. That is why we had to go and attack them at the stadium.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, were you three people there on that day, who attacked the Inkatha?

MR PHAMA: When we left Polla Park, we were three, four with the driver, the one who was driving the vehicle and we alighted at Kululabaadjie and he left us there. We were left three - there we were three and after attacking we went back, the three of us. I did not see the others. I would be lying if I say I know the other people who were involved there.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How many people from the Inkatha was there in this rally?

MR PHAMA: It was quite a large number of them.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I know you may not be able to say precisely how many, but can you tell me, is it more than 300, is it more than 400 people? Can you tell me precisely, not precisely but more-or-less in hundreds how many people there were?

MR PHAMA: There were more than that.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How many, a thousand?

MR PHAMA: Perhaps there were about a thousand. The Khumalo Street was full of them. They had occupied the whole street, Khumalo Street.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How far away from these people were you when you started shooting at them?

MR PHAMA: We were not very far from them.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now please explain this to me, Mr Phama, you said that you had information that the Inkatha was going to attack you people, so you must have presumed that they had weapons with them. Now tell me, how is it possible that you were only three people and you had it in your right minds that you were going to attack a thousand armed Inkatha people? I say that you are lying, Sir, you know that they were not armed.

MR PHAMA: First of all I would like to explain this to you. People would be appointed and knowing very well that you have your trust in that particular person who will be with you, that he won't leave you if you are in trouble.

So we trusted one another because we knew that no-one would leave you behind if you were in trouble. And we knew very well that the people that we were approaching were armed, but we had a hope that if we hit them first they wouldn't be able to fight back. That is exactly what we did, they couldn't fight back.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, I put it to you that I have instructions from my clients that on this day they were busy with a peace rally. As you see in the bundle, where the ANC has themselves submitted information to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that they themselves say that eight months before it, there was a lull in the violence, that there was no violence. I put it to you that the Inkatha members, over a thousand of them that day, did not have weapons which they were going to use to go and attack you. You say that you had to use it in self-defence, I say that there was no, you had no basis to think that they were going to attack you and that you merely shot on a group of people that were harmless on that day.

MR PHAMA: What is actually confusing me is that with whom did they make peace, because they were fighting Polla Park, they were fighting with Polla Park. If they had peace, with whom was that peace? That is what is actually confusing me, because the people who compiled that report are the people that I don't even know at Polla Park. That is why I am saying I am not going to be able to answer directly or in a satisfactory manner, because I know nothing about that peace.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, did you know a Mr Mgungesi Ceba? I have a difficulty pronouncing this name. His surname is C-E-B-A. Do you know a Mr Mgungesi Ceba?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I know Ceba.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Who is he?

MR PHAMA: Ceba was one of the committee members at Polla Park.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was he the commander of a Self Defence Unit?

MR PHAMA: Yes, he was a commander.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was a commander of the Self Defence Unit which you belonged to?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I want to read to you a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, lodged by the African National Congress. Page 6 of it, paragraph 6.1.2.9.4

"The Polla Park Residents' Committee was a democratically elected structure, led by Prince Mlambe, who was also a head of the ANC branch in this settlement. The Residents' Committee took steps to set in motion various ambitions, community development projects, which were disrupted in early 1990, when the Residents' Committee was overthrown by an SDU, led by Mr Ceba.

Some of these new leaders claimed to be members of MK, and began a reign of terror. Under Ceba and his small band of comrades, the Polla Park Unit began launching random attacks against the police, passing motorists and former leaders of residents of the Polla Park. The most credible Polla Park leaders were exiled from their settlement. Three were murdered, including Prince Mlambe. Criminals moved into this settlement and joined this SDU. Violent confrontation between Polla Park SDU and the police, became the order of the day and attempts by the African National Congress to normalise the situation were consistently frustrated by Ceba, who also always managed to evade arrest.

Just before the signing of the National Peace Accord in September 1992, members of the Polla Park SDU opened fire on a crowd of Inkatha members, killing 16 people."

I'm going to turn to the next page, page 7.

"It was found that Ceba's SDU had been responsible for many criminal acts, including the assassination of the highly regarded community leader, Prince Mlambe and the attack on Inkatha members. Nearly all the actions of this SDU were criminal in nature.

The Commission found that Mr Ceba was a police informer and that the SAP probably knew of the planned attacks on hostel dwellers on September, after which many other residents died in attacks and counter-attacks set off by this massacre.

An ANC member, Mr Michael Phama, was convicted of the murders of the Inkatha members, but Ceba was not brought to trial."

Now Mr Phama, you have already told this Commission that you were a part of this SDU, you have already said that, you have already admitted that you did kill these six, that you were part of the small group of people that killed these 15 people, Inkatha members in Khumalo Street.

What I want to know from you, Sir, - and this is also where I come in and where I put it to you that there was relative calmness, were you a police informant that worked maliciously on this group and that maliciously attacked 16 IFP members in order to bring an uprising in this violence again in Tokoza? Were you or were you not?

MR PHAMA: No, that is not true.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you say that this whole statement by the African National Congress is not true?

DR TSOTSI: Mr van der Heyde, excuse me for a moment. Does this say that Mr Phama specially was a police informers, that statement? ...(indistinct) Tokoza resident ...(indistinct).

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Honourable Member, I can then relate you to the Truth and Reconciliation's own report. I'm not certain where this report went to, I don't know if this is part of the provisional report that went to President Nelson Mandela, but on page 124 of this bundle, also the paragraph 124, it is said

"Evidence before the Goldstone Commission revealed that Polla Park SDU ..."

TAPE DAMAGED - RESULTING IN LOSS OF WORDS

MR PADI: Excuse me, I'd like to know if the Committee had any copy of the Goldstone Commission report or has the knowledge of the contents of that Goldstone report before it can be put forward to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what we will do is we will ask, we'll simply repeat the question to Mr Phama, so that he can deal with it. We don't have the Goldstone Commission report before us. I'm not sure how relevant that is for our purposes, but ...

Mr Phama, there appears to be an allegation that you were a police informer, what is your response to that?

MR PHAMA: First of all, I've been to the Goldstone Commission as I was implicated by Ceba. He was being released by Germiston, Brixton, the police. He was released to come and point out at us at Polla Park, and when he came to me, Ceba that is, he said: "Mboto, please give me about R30 so that I go home because I'm sent out by the police to come and do the pointing out". His private parts were electrocuted. I gave him that R30 and he went home.

We were fetched, the three of us, to go and appear in front of the Goldstone Commission. When I got there I found two ladies, Mr Mzizi's wife and the lady from Kululabaadjie, called Toko, and policemen were also there. When I came in they said: "This is not the one". I was told to go out and sit outside and I waited there for the whole week and I was never called.

As a person who was working I told them that I'm not going back there to the Goldstone Commission because I would end up losing my job and I stopped attending the Goldstone Commission. They called me afterwards. And it's a lie, the fact that I was once a police informant. I knew nothing and I never used to talk to police. That is a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van der Heyde?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, in your application you said that Mr Johnson - I have forgotten his other name that you used, was your commander. Later on now you've said that Mr Ceba was your commander, can you just clarify that to the Committee please?

MR PHAMA: Johnson became a commander after Ceba, because we later realised that he is the one who revealed our names because they knew me as Mboto at Polla Park, they did not know my real name. And that Mboto, my name, is the one that Ceba told the police about and then when he ran away we appointed or elected Johnson. He became our new commander.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: During this incident on the 8th of September, was Mr Ceba your commander?

MR PHAMA: He was not a commander, but he was just there serving in the committee because everything was in Mbatane's hands now. Mbatane on the 8th is the one who whistled, giving a signal that we should start shooting. Ceba was not there.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Phama, you have just said that Mr Mbatane became the commander after Mr Ceba ran away because you thought he gave your names of the shooting. Now I cannot understand why you could say that Mr Johnson was now the commander on the 8th, because chronologically the shooting took place and then I suppose your names were revealed. Can you just clarify for me again on that?

MR PHAMA: When Ceba left Polla Park, he would come back sometimes because he had a wife behind at Polla Park, but when he ran away when the police had sent him to point out, that was after the attack at Khumalo Street. Then he ran away all alone, he went home. He was no longer a commander during the Khumalo incident, Johnson was our commander.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: The Khumalo Street incident ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr van der Heyde, we're going to adjourn. We'll adjourn and reconvene at 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phama, I remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand?

MICHAEL PHAMA: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to put on record that during the break the legal representatives of the applicant as well as those who represent the victims, have agreed that the ...

PROBLEM WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I would just like to put on record that during the break the legal representatives of the applicant as well as those who represent the victims, have agreed that the statement of the African National Congress that was ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Can you hear me now?

CHAIRPERSON: Just start again.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE: (Cont)

I would just like to put on record that during the break the legal representatives of the applicant as well as those who represent the victims, have agreed to the authenticity of the statement by Mr Duma Nkosi, which was given up to the TRC during a previous hearing. And that is - if I just have a look at this bundle, it's a bundle that says: "Background information - Tokoza conflict". That is from pages 3 to page 26 of this bundle. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Phama, just before the break I asked you if you could remember who your commander was on the 8th of September 1991, was it Mr Johnson or was it Mr Ceba?

MR PHAMA: It was Johnson.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: When did Mr Ceba run away after he has given out names, according to you, that implicated you and other people?

MR PHAMA: Ceba ran away after coming from Khumalo - he was arrested after the Khumalo incident, then he went to Goldstone Commission, I don't know on what day was it.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Are you speaking about this Khumalo Street now? You said after Khumalo ...(intervention)

MR PHAMA: Yes, I'm talking about Khumalo, just next to the stadium. He ran away after that incident.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So then before he ran away, this took place, was he then your commander?

MR PHAMA: The commander at the time was Johnson. He was just there at Polla Park. He would go away and come back again.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: You previously said that he was part of a group of advisors as well of your SDU. Do you say that this is not true anymore?

MR PHAMA: At first Ceba was the Commander. After some time we replaced him with Johnson, Johnson became our commander.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I will not take that any further. I would like to move now over to the second incident for which you apply for amnesty and it's incident whereby you say that you together with other people, shot on a taxi of the Rand Water Board. Now the first thing I can remember that you said in your evidence-in-chief this morning was that there were a lot of people, or some groups that together decided to go and attack this taxi. Am I correct?

MR PHAMA: It was not all the people from Polla Park, it was just the group of people who were defending Polla Park, because we were not there as the whole community because we did not want to be sold out.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: You said that there was a taxi that reportedly shot on people from Polla Park. The people that were in this taxi drove passed a water point and they continued shooting on people from Polla Park, am I correct?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now did you ever see this taxi, before you shot on it?

MR PHAMA: No, not at all.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How long did it take for you to recognise that this taxi that was coming towards is the taxi that you singled out to be shot upon?

MR PHAMA: When it appeared from the Angus station direction it was already being shot at by the people who were at Angus station. That is when I realised that that was the taxi.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So there were other people that already started shooting on this taxi and you saw that there were people shooting at this taxi and that's how you recognised that this is the taxi that you have to shoot upon as well?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So there was no identification other than people shooting on this taxi, whereby you decided that you were going to shoot on this taxi as well, yes or no?

MR PHAMA: The colour was already identified.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: What was the colour of the taxi?

MR PHAMA: It was white, but not completely.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Excuse me, I think it was not interpreted correctly, may you just answer the question again. What colour was this taxi?

MR PHAMA: It was a taxi with a bright colour, it was not white, it was not pure white, but it was perhaps off-white.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you think a taxi with an off-white colour is a very scarce item, or do you think that there is a lot of taxis going around of just an off-white colour?

MR PHAMA: It is a common colour.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So there was nothing to tell you that that taxi did shoot upon the water point and there was nothing to tell you that the people in front were just maybe shooting upon it for some other reason, you merely accepted that the taxi that was coming to you, that was shot upon, that you were going to shoot upon this taxi as well, is that correct?

MR PHAMA: This was the taxi that was being attacked, being shot at and that was the taxi that we had told ourselves that we are going to attack, because when we were discussing the previous evening we had agreed upon shooting at it at Angus station and when I just crossed the railway line towards the Angus station, it came and it was being shot at.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: You said that the reason why you shot at this taxi was that there were people shooting at the people who took water from a certain water point in Polla Park, am I correct?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So if people were shooting at the people at the water point, then they could have been people from anywhere, am I correct? You did not know where they came from, did you?

MR PHAMA: It was not shot on that very same day, and this took place more than once. The people in the morning when they went to fetch water they would be shot at.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: The question that I asked you was that you did not know where this taxi would have come from, it come from anywhere, am I correct?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct, but we were shooting at this taxi because we were fighting with the IFP people and we knew that the only person who can shoot at us was a person from the IFP organisation, no-one else.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So you've just - well before the interval you said that there were a lot of people attacking your people in Polla Park, you said the police were attacking, the army were attacking, Inkatha were attacking, everybody was attacking you, now you suddenly say that the only attack could have come from IFP members. Answer me on that please.

MR PHAMA: Even the police and the soldiers, we used to refer to them as IFP because they were also attacking. We would fight. We did not have any respect for them because we regarded them as our oppressors.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you know to which political party the people in the taxi belonged to, when you shot upon the taxi?

MR PHAMA: I did not know that, but we had IFP and Azapo at Polla Park, but the only organisation that did not exist at Polla Park was IFP.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Heyde. Ms van der Westhuizen, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Phama, I would like to know from you, as a Polla Park resident and living in that area, what were all the different structures, community-wise, politically-wise, what existed at Polla Park at this stage that you're talking about?

MR PHAMA: The organisation or structures at Polla Park, we had PAC, Azapo and ANC.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you have something like a street committee or a civic association?

MR PHAMA: Yes, there were street committees at Polla Park.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was that a community based committee or was it related to any specific political party?

MR PHAMA: They were community based.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And as I understand your evidence, you say that you were a member of the ANC. Did you have any specific position in that ANC branch?

MR PHAMA: I was serving in the committee. I was a member of ANC and I was also serving in the committee.

ADV GCABASHE: Let me just get this right please, Mr Phama. You are saying you were a member of the ANC branch committee, just clarify this for us. You were a member of what exactly?

MR PHAMA: The committee was the committee that was in charge of a specific section and our, the job, the duty was to check and inspect, see if there were problems. If there were any problems we would sit down and solve those problems without laying any charges. I was serving in that kind of committee.

ADV GCABASHE: Now again explain, was that part of the ANC branch or was that a community structure set up by the community as a civic structure? I think that that's what the legal representative want's clarity on. That's certainly what I'd like to hear.

MR PHAMA: This committee was established by the community.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Honourable Member.

Mr Phama, in the ANC structures, did you have any role other than an ordinary member?

MR PHAMA: I had no role.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: As an ANC member, did you attend ANC meetings in Polla Park?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I used to attend the ANC meetings at Polla Park.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was the Chairperson of the ANC branch in Polla Park?

MR PHAMA: The Chairperson at Polla Park whenever we convene a meeting whoever had heard something he would convene or call a meeting, but in each section there would be a chairman for that specific section.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was the chairman in the section where you resided?

MR PHAMA: I was the chairperson in my section.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Am I understanding you correctly, you were the chairperson of the ANC, of the ANC branch of that specific section?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I was the chairman for the section. The ANC youth was there on the other hand. It was not combined with the section. In the section we were just a committee.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And over all in Polla Park, who from the ANC was regarded as the leader, in Polla Park? I'm not talking about the street committee or the community based organisation, from the ANC, who was your leader there?

MR PHAMA: The leader that we had elected or appointed to lead the ANC Youth League was Dludlu.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where were the meetings normally held, the ANC meetings?

MR PHAMA: They would be held, but during the times of conflict it was very scarce for us to have such meetings, ANC meetings, but the meetings would only be about this chaos, this fight that was going on at Polla Park, not ANC meetings per se.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So if I understand you correctly, it was more this community forum, this - let's call it civic association, that used to call meetings, am I correct? Not the ANC.

MR PHAMA: That could be the case because we were attacked and we would call meetings, or even if you get some information that something was going to happen, you would call meetings as the community, not as an ANC organisation. That would be community based.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now if I understand you correctly, you discussed a lot about the attacks and the violence that was happened, did you also discuss ways and means of defending your community?

MR PHAMA: Yes, we had discussed about that, that there should be people who would be able to defend the community. But from the community we did not get such people because we were afraid of being sold out.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So where did the people come from?

MR PHAMA: They came from our community.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I am not sure that I understand you correctly, you just said that you discussed ways and means of defending your community, but you did not want to get people from the community because you were scared that they were going to sell you out, can you just clarify what you mean by you got people from the community? Who defended you? That's what I wanted to know. Who are the people that defended Polla Park?

MR PHAMA: From the community, even myself, no-one knew that I am able to use a firearm, but as I knew that I could use it - after we had discussed about getting people to patrol 24 hours a day, I was in that group. That is when we got to that group. I was in that group of the people who were going to patrol.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but Mr Phama, just help us here. Where did you find those people you patrolled with, from which part of the community? Because you have said that they were not from the general community meeting, and this is what is not too clear.

MR PHAMA: As a person in a section one would meet with the committee of the section and reveal to the committee of the section and tell them that you are able to use the firearm. Such news shouldn't be known by the whole community because people could be sold out, it was only the committee who would know that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At these meetings, did you discuss what you will use to defend yourself, what type of weapons?

MR PHAMA: Yes, we would discuss that in our own meetings when we had gathered, we wouldn't discuss that in the community meetings.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, and what weapons did you decide upon?

MR PHAMA: We were using the AK47 rifle.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Anything else?

MR PHAMA: No, there was nothing else, only the AK47 and the axes that were used by the community. They were not used by the same people who were using the firearms.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Didn't you also have handgrenades, Mr Phama?

MR PHAMA: No.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On the attack, the attack that you mentioned on the Mshayazafe hostel, can you not remember that there was a handgrenade used in that attack?

MR PHAMA: The attack that I know about where I was personally involved, was on the 18th, it was on Saturday. This one that - the one that took place on the 10th, I was not present there because the people from the township were all alone there and I don't even know what type of weapons were used there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now these units that you mentioned earlier on in your evidence, how many units were there in Polla Park?

MR PHAMA: I would like you to explain to me what unit, because we had committees and defence units and the defence units there at Polla Park - there was only one defence unit from Polla Park, and there were others from the township. We were separated from the townships, but we would be combined during a war, a fight.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Okay, let me put it to you this way, how many street committees were there in Polla Park? Because it seems like Polla Park was divided up into different sections, each with its own street committee.

MR PHAMA: In F Section we were nine. In the other section I do not know, but in my own section where I was in charge, we were nine.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just clarify. So the nine of you along with others from other sections made up that one SDU for Polla Park? Is that what you are saying?

MR PHAMA: The nine were elected during the meeting in the section, not the whole Polla Park, but if there is a meeting at Polla Park, then some people would be appointed to go and represent the section.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I understand that. I'm just asking about the composition of the SDU, of the Self Defence Unit. There were different sections in Polla Park, yes?

MR PHAMA: The units were not differentiated at Polla Park, this concept unit came afterwards. We used to refer to ourselves as operators. Operators, even if it belonged to A or K, we were referred to as operators, that is all.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I understand that. All I'm saying is - just make sure that I've got this right, you were saying there is one SDU in Polla Park, yes? And all the operators were members of that one SDU?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And from your particular section, the people under you, there were nine of you who were operators, who therefore were also part of that one SDU.

MR PHAMA: We were not there as nine operators, we were nine in the committees, nine committee members. The others knew nothing about firearms, they were there in the committee, but they were using axes.

ADV GCABASHE: Of the people from your section - you were a member of the SDU, how many others in your section were members of the SDU?

MR PHAMA: It was quite a number of them, but they were not committee members. In the committee members I was the one who was using a firearm and among the committee members that were with me, the others were not using firearms, but axes. But there were other youth in the section, who were using firearms, but they were not committee members.

ADV GCABASHE: Right. I'm more interested in the people you were worked with in the SDU, not really the committee members. So of those people who were part of the SDU, from your section, how many of you were there? - just roughly.

MR PHAMA: I cannot estimate. We were five in the section.

ADV GCABASHE: And how many members were there of the whole SDU at Polla Park? Just to estimate.

MR PHAMA: There were about 12.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, thank you, that helps a little.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Phama, the term that you used "operator", am I correct if I put it to you that an operator is a person who was trained to use an AK47 assault rifle, that is what an operator was?

MR PHAMA: We were referring to ourselves as operators, anyone who is using the firearms so that the community could not get a clue as to what an operator was, because we were scared of being sold out.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did you obtain these AK47 rifles from?

MR PHAMA: Two firearms were obtained from the township, from the Shangaan-speaking people and we had to know where they get these firearms. We got the information that they were from Maputo, and we organised two gentlemen and one Shangaan-speaking guy to go to Maputo and get those firearms. Indeed they went to Maputo and they brought the firearms.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How many arms did you have in your possession?

MR PHAMA: Initially we purchased two firearms. When we went there again to purchase we bought firearms that would be enough for all the operators at Polla Park. After purchasing those firearms for the operators the police came an confiscated them one by one and we decided again to go and get other firearms so that we can have them.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What firearms are you referring to, an AK47 or 9mm, what are you talking about?

MR PHAMA: AK47 rifles. We were not using any 9mm.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And who were the people - where were these AK47 rifles kept, was it kept on your person, in your house, where did you keep this firearm?

MR PHAMA: We would give them to a particular person and the person would keep it for himself, but what we wanted was that if a person is arrested for possession of that firearm we would collect money and try and bail out that person, but the people would keep their firearms.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the ANC leadership in that area, were they aware of these purchases of AK47 assault rifles?

MR PHAMA: The leaders - let me say the community, Polla Park community knew nothing about this because we would send our commander to call the meeting and he would ask for some donations or money to get from each and every shack, R10 or R5. After that he would take that money and bring it to us and then he would tell us to get something like bullets. For bullets we would ask for money from the community, without telling them that we were going to buy bullets. And we would take that money and buy the bullets or ammunition.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Phama, didn't you understand my question? I asked you whether the ANC leadership in Polla Park knew about the purchase of these AK47 assault rifles, not the community.

MR PHAMA: What is confusing me in your question now is the ANC. The whole Polla Park was ANC. That is what is confusing me, because to me it looks like the ANC was on the highest level of the hierarchy, but all the ANC, all the Polla Park community was ANC. We wouldn't PAC or Azapo, the whole community would be referred to as ANC.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Phama, I asked you whether there was an ANC leadership in that area where you were staying and you've already indicated that the ANC wasn't all that operative during that period, it was more your community forum that took over the reign, to call it that, in that area. What is the position, did your ANC leadership know about the firearms?

MR PHAMA: That is why I am saying the ANC - even myself I was also ANC, that is why I'm saying ANC was the whole Polla Park community. We did not have a leader coming from ANC at Polla Park, we were ANC there, all of us. Even when I was serving in the committee I was an ANC member, but the committee belonged to the community.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You said that one of your commanders would ask for money from the community to buy arms and ammunition, which commander are you referring to?

MR PHAMA: The commander who would do that job was Mbatane, because even Ceba would perform those duties while he was still there as a commander, but when he was replaced, Mbatane, we sent Mbatane to do the job.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Phama, I want to refer you to your applications before this Amnesty Committee. Taking into account the fact that you cannot read or write, I want to first take you to page 1. That is the first application that you filled in. And I'd request your legal representative just to have it in front of you although I realise that you can probably not read or write anything from it.

Mr Phama, I don't know if you can remember the date on which you filled in your first application. Unfortunately on my copy it's not all that clear, but it seems to be the 5th of June 1996, could that be correct?

MR PHAMA: I won't know, I don't know the date.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Your first application that you filled in, can you remember the name of the person who assisted you with filling in this form?

MR PHAMA: The first form I was assisted by Siphiwe.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who is that, is that a prisoner or somebody else at Correctional Services?

MR PHAMA: He was a prisoner, if my memory serves me well.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was he reading our the questions to you in Xhosa?

MR PHAMA: He did not read out to me. As I was telling him what to say he would write that and then he would ask me a question and then I would respond. I would talk and then he would be writing and I did not read the form.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I understand that. You've actually already answered the question that I wanted to know. Now the information that is contained in this form is therefore what you gave Siphiwe, you assume that he wrote down on this form what you told him, is that correct?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is what I thought.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you maybe remember at the end, before signing this form, whether anybody asked you to swear to the truth thereof and take the oath? Can you remember whether that was done?

MR PHAMA: No, nothing like that happened.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to refer you to page 3 thereof. Right at the bottom there is a stamp and a signature which appears to be from a Commissioner of Oaths. That is the person before an oath was allegedly taken. Do you say that you never took an oath that what is stated in this form is true and correct?

MR PHAMA: What commissioner is that?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is a Commissioner of Oaths, it's a person before whom you swear that what is written in the document is the truth.

MR PHAMA: I was never sworn in for any application form that was submitted to the Truth Commission.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I now wish to deal with the contents of what you said in this Form 1, and see how far you agree with what is stated in here. I'm going to deal with specific aspects thereof. I want to refer you to 7(b), in which the question is asked

"State capacity in which you served in the organisation and membership number if any."

In this you answered and you said:

"I served as an organiser of the ANC supporters."

Can you remember that you said that to the person who took down the details?

MR PHAMA: No, I was never an organiser.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to refer you to 9(a)(i). That is basically the acts, omissions or offences for which you are seeking amnesty. In this you say

"I was defending the residents of my township against IFP several times, as it was a common knowledge that we were attacked."

Did you say this to Siphiwe?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then the colleague sitting next to me has already referred you to dates, which I'm just for clarity's sake going to put it to you again. I know that you've already said that some of these dates seem to be confusing. That is now the dates on which the acts for which you're applying, allegedly happened, and that is the 8th of July 1990, the 21st of August 1990, the 22nd of August 1990, and then it looks like the 11th of December 1990. Can you remember whether you told Siphiwe or gave Siphiwe these dates?

ADV GCABASHE: It's actually the 18th of July, the first one. You said the 8th, it's the 18th.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: My apologies, the first date is the 18th of July.

MR PHAMA: I told him about the 18th and the 8th and the date of the Vereeniging Road incident.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you - if there are other dates, you don't know where he got these dates from, it's not you who told him about these dates, is that correct?

MR PHAMA: I cannot say that I did not tell him those dates, because he's the person that I used to discuss with, more especially about this Tokoza violence. We used to discuss issues with him. If he has written some date there, perhaps it is from his own knowledge, but as a person who is old and illiterate, he would think that I've forgotten some of the things. But he did not read the document out to me thereafter.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Okay. Now I'm proceeding to page 2(b). The question is asked

"State whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage to property as a result of such act, omissions and/or offences."

And your answer here is:

"I cannot say whether people were injured or killed because it was at night."

Did you say this to Siphiwe?

MR PHAMA: Will you please explain to me. I don't know what incident is that, because when we were attacking Mshayazafe it was during the day, and the stadium was attacked during the day, and the Vereeniging Road incident took place during the day, and this Polla Park incident took place at night.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It does not refer to - this answer relates to the previous dates that you have given and it only states that you don't know whether people were injured or killed because it was at night.

MR PHAMA: That is why I am saying on the 18th the attack took place during the day at about two. This one of Kululabaadjie, it was in the morning at about eight or nine, and this one of Vereeniging Road was about half past seven. It was during the day also. I never launched any attack during the night. Polla Park was attacked during the night and when it was attacked during the night it was attacked about two times. It was first attacked on the 21st and the 22nd. And then on the 11th, 8 o'clock in the morning they came ...

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So you do not know why it's only referred to as have happened during the night, all these incidents? You do not know why Siphiwe wrote that down?

MR PHAMA: No, I do not know.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to take you to paragraph 10(a), in which you need to state your political objectives sought to be achieved. What is written down here is that

"During those years the whole country was out of control. The political opponents were attacked by IFP and Security Branches, to demoralise the liberation movements like the ANC."

Can you remember having said that to Siphiwe?

MR PHAMA: He is the one who added that one, because I never mentioned anything about liberation movements or whatever, I just told him to write about Tokoza violence, what was happening there, the fight or factions between IFP and ANC. That is what I told him to write about.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And the (b) portion, the question is

"Your justification for regarding such acts etc., as being with a political objective."

And your answer here is:

"As the corruption from police and Security Branches erupting, wild behaviour from the citizens of South Africa took its course, where we were forced to defend ourselves from political criminals such as the IFP, and because of lack of our SPS to investigate the cases is where conspiracy took place to implicate ANC members to a crime which I do not have knowledge of. This was a pure campaign of the NP for the election."

Do you remember words to that effect?

MR PHAMA: I do remember telling Siphiwe that on the 11th, in 1990, while we were being shot at, at Polla Park the police were escorting the IFP group to the hostel and the people had died at Polla Park. Instead of the police arresting the people who had killed people, they did not do that, instead they escorted them to the hostel. That is what I said.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to take you to the second application which was filled in on your behalf, do you remember who is the person who assisted you with filling in and writing that application form, the second one?

MR PHAMA: It was Fish.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was Fish, was he also a prisoner?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can I just ask you before we proceed, why did you feel that it was necessary to submit three applications for amnesty?

MR PHAMA: I would forward the application form and phone the office and the office would instruct me to forward another application. And I received a letter that was said to be coming from the Committee, Truth Commission, that required me to sign and I did so. After signing that I received another letter that needed a signature and fill in another set of forms. I did so.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You said you phoned the office and they said that you must submit another application. Which office are you referring to, is that the office of the TRC, or the Correctional Services?

MR PHAMA: The Shell House office.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Are you referring to the Head Office of the ANC?

MR PHAMA: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was the person you spoke to there?

MR PHAMA: The person - I was phoning Patience. He is the one whom we were told to phone.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did the ANC at any stage send any person to assist you or represent you whilst in prison dealing with your amnesty application?

MR PHAMA: Yes, someone was sent.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did that person take down a statement or fill in a form on your behalf?

MR PHAMA: He came and he filled in the forms for the ANC members who were in Pretoria.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you remember the name of the person? You say "he came", who is that person?

MR PHAMA: It was Patience and two males, but I do not know their names. She was the only person that I knew.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to take you back to the second form. That is the one which you Fish assisted you in filling in. It seems like this form was signed on the 10th of October 1996. Remember the first form was in June 1996, this seems to have been filled in on the 10th of October 1996, it's a little bit later. Could it have been on this date that you filled in this form, or signed this form?

MR PHAMA: I cannot say because I did not take notice of the date when this form was filled in.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to, on this form, refer you to specifically 9(a)(ii) and that is also the date on which the incidents that you're applying for amnesty for allegedly took place. The dates that are mentioned here is the 18th, the 21st, the 22nd and 11 December. On my copy there is no year. The 18th, the 21st, the 22nd and 11 December. Sorry, these dates, can you remember that you gave these dates to Fish?

MR PHAMA: If I remember well I told him about the dates.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened on the 11th of December?

MR PHAMA: We were attacked by IFP at Polla Park.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When did this attack take place, was it in the morning, the evening?

MR PHAMA: It was in the morning.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you use your firearm, your AK47?

MR PHAMA: No, not on that particular day, I only used it the day after.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On the 12th of December?

MR PHAMA: I used it on the 8th, when we were going to attack at Khumalo. I was using the assegai and the axe before that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The attack in Khumalo Street, the one where 16 IFP supporters were killed, is that the first time that you used your AK47?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I was using it for the first time on that particular day.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who taught you how to use this AK47?

MR PHAMA: When I was still young at home.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where was that, where did you come from?

MR PHAMA: It is in Transkei.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How old were you when you used an AK47 for the first time?

MR PHAMA: I was about 18 years old.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to continue with your second form, and I'm going to take you to page 5(iv) and that copy that I have is very vague, I can't see it very clearly, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I put something to you which is not correct. The nature and particulars of the offence that you apply. You say that

"On the dates mentioned we were attacked by Inkatha members who were shooting at our people and hacking them. At that time people were leaving their homes in fear of their lives, so we had to defend them. We shot at random because our place was surrendered(sic) by those men. Police were also assisting them."

And then the rest I cannot make out. Can you recall that you've given this information to Fish?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then you're required to state whether anyone was injured, killed or suffered damage to property and here you state that 21 people were killed, IFP members. Do you remember having told Fish that 21 people were killed?

MR PHAMA: No, I do not remember telling him that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Then further on this form, 10(a), you're asked to state what political objective you sought to be achieved and you say

"I wanted to defend our people who were attacked by IFP members."

MR PHAMA: Yes, I do remember that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you give Fish this information to put it in your application?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I told him so.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then in the (b) section you're asked your justification for regarding such acts etc., with a political objective, and you say here

"As a member of the African National Congress and of the Self Defence Unit, I defended the members of the congress in Polla Park against the IFP. My community was in danger."

Do you recall having said that?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And page 6, 11(b), you're requested to give information regarding a person who gave orders, and it specifically asked

"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person who gave such order or approval."

And your answer here is:

"No-one gave orders on these days, but the community was in danger so everyone had to fight. We had to take initiative."

Do you recall having said that?

MR PHAMA: If my memory serves me well the person who would give us instructions or directions was Mbatane only. When Mbatane was absent and we were being attacked, no-one would say "let's got and fight", we would just go up and fight.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, but this is what I want to know from you, whether you told Fish to write here that no-one gave orders, because this is what is given as an answer on your form.

MR PHAMA: I do not remember telling him to write that no-one gave us instructions, but I all I can think of is that when we were attacked during the night, Mbatane would be there, perhaps he would be, sometimes he would asleep and we would fight. And the instructions of going to attack a certain place, we would sit down and discuss and he is the one who will give us the go-ahead or instruction. But during the conflict at Polla Park, no-one would say anything, we would just stand up and go out and fight.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you regard Polla Park as part of Tokoza?

MR PHAMA: Yes, it was part of Tokoza.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How far is Polla Park, if you can estimate at all, from the hostels in Khumalo Street?

MR PHAMA: It is quite a distance, it is a long distance.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How long would you estimate it would take you if you walk by foot, if you walk down Khumalo Street from the hostels to Polla Park? If you can estimate.

MR PHAMA: If you are walking very fast you won't walk a long time, but if you are chatting to people and getting into shops you might take long, but if you are in a hurry you won't take much time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can we try and get an estimate whether it will take you an hour, more than an hour, maybe half an hour, just to get an idea. If you can.

MR PHAMA: I can say as a person who was coming from the township station two, I wouldn't take an hour to walk from station two to Polla Park, but people are not the same, the people's speed is not the same. Another person can take an hour.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Phama. I now want you to go to page 8, that is your third application, or form that was filled in on your behalf and it seems like this was done on the 11th day of September 1996, at Pretoria Maximum Prison. Do you remember who assisted you in filling in this form?

MR PHAMA: No, I do not remember. On the 11th, I do not remember.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is it not perhaps the people sent by the ANC, Patience and her assistants, who assisted you in filling in this form?

MR PHAMA: That is why I say I cannot remember, because I remember the forms that I filled in were two. I was helped by Fish, and the other one that required my signature and the other one was additional forms. If I remember very well, the forms that I signed at Pretoria were four.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want you to have a look at page 13, at the bottom of the page there is a signature which I want you to have a look at and see if that is your signature attached to that. At the bottom of page 13.

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is my signature.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I just want to take you through this form as well, and I'm going to refer to page 9(a)(i), that is where you have to state the acts, omissions and/or offences that you're applying for amnesty for. Here you say you're applying for amnesty for 16 IFP members murdered, 4 IFP members at old Vereeniging Road and one traffic officer at Alrode. All of them were murdered. Do you remember having given this information to somebody who filled in the form?

MR PHAMA: What I remember, what I can still remember is that I told the person that he should write about IFP members, about 16 members who were attacked and killed at Khumalo and the four members at that incident of Vereeniging Road.

The reason for me to apply for amnesty for that incident is because I don't know the people who were involved there. I decided to put all that burden on my shoulders. Even in Court I did that. This TPA incident, I never included it in this because the person who committed this is the person who told me that he was going to apply for amnesty for this incident. If it is included here, that was not my instruction.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just for clarification's sake, do I understand you correctly that you never wanted to apply for amnesty for killing a traffic officer, is that what you're saying?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is what I'm saying because I didn't know that when this TPA was shot at, I'm also expected to apply for amnesty for that incident, because I knew that we - the instruction that we shoot the people who were sent there to fight, I just thought that I am only expected to apply for amnesty if I am the one who pulled the trigger, if I am the one who killed. I did not know that the procedure - I did not know that if you tell the people to defend themselves, you are also expected to apply for amnesty. That is why I said, I told Joseph to apply for amnesty in connection with this traffic officer, the one that was killed.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you, Mr Phama, did anybody explain to you that the way the Act is structured, if you directed or planned or generally were involved in any way with a particular incident, offence, omission, you have to apply for amnesty even though you may physically not have been at that place yourself, as in this particular instance? You were associated with these people, you gave them particular instructions and did whoever assisted you at any stage, explain to you that even if you were not physically there, under certain circumstances you must apply for amnesty as well for a particular type of incident?

MR PHAMA: No-one explained that to me. I only got that information from my legal representative. When he came he told me that, because he told me that there is a case that I did not apply for amnesty for. I told him that I couldn't apply for amnesty because I'm not the one who killed that person. There were people. I know the people who killed that gentleman. He told me that I was supposed to apply for amnesty concerning that case and I told him that I did not know that was expected of me, because I'll only apply for amnesty for a case where I was personally involved.

I did not know that if I did issue that kind of an instruction, that you should apply for amnesty if you had issued an instruction for someone to do something. He is the one who explained this to me, telling me that I was supposed to apply for amnesty because they were involved there because of the instruction from me, because I told them that if the situation is getting difficult for them, they should fight. Then I understood that.

ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying you don't know who completed this particular application form, the third one?

MR PHAMA: I do not get the second - I do not know the second one, all I remember is that I filled in four application forms in Pretoria. I cannot remember who actually helped me in filling in this one. I remember Siphiwe and Fish and these people from the office, they assisted me in filling this other one. There is another form that was filled in by Fish, after receiving an application form from the Truth Commission, where I was instructed to sign my name and fill in the additional form that was filled in by Fish. Fish assisted me in filling two forms. All in all I have four application forms that were filled in.

ADV GCABASHE: But now that you understand that even for something where you were not physically there, such as this traffic officer case, where you are associated with that incident you must apply for amnesty, your intention is to indeed apply for amnesty for that as well, because the Act requires that you do so?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I do understand that after it was explained to me, but I did not know that, but when it was explained by my legal representative I realised that I have made a mistake by not applying for amnesty concerning that case of the traffic officer. He explained to me, he told me that I was supposed to apply for amnesty. I told him that I will try before the Commission and ask for - I would apologise before this Committee, and tell them that I've made a mistake by not forwarding an application because I'm the one who instructed them to fight if the situation was getting difficult for them.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but Mr Phama, I am simply saying to you the fact of the matter is that according to this form, page 9, you have indeed applied for amnesty for that last incident, the traffic cop incident. Are you satisfied with that?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I am satisfied because I did not know anything about law, I just took it easy that I'm only going to apply for amnesty for things that, for incidents where I was personally involved, therefore I am satisfied now that this application form is now forwarded.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Honourable Member.

Mr Phama, you - as far as I understand, you were also convicted of the murder of this traffic officer and I understand that you deny that you were directly involved. Now having known that you were not involved in that incident where the traffic officer was killed and of which you were actually convicted, did you enter an appeal against your conviction relating to the traffic officer?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I tried seeking for an appeal when I arrived at Sun City Prison, but I knew exactly after forwarding that appeal that, I knew that the judge was not going to sign for that because the judge who was presiding on my case was against the ANC, because just before the trial he uttered those words, that he was not in favour of what was done by the ANC. I did that, I made an appeal, but I was just - I just included each and everything that I was convicted for because when I was sentenced or convicted I did not like the way it was handled, it was handled politically.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you know if your appeal was prosecuted through to the Appeal Court in Bloemfontein? Do you know if somebody took your appeal further?

MR PHAMA: No, I do not know.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to continue with page 8, and it's (ii), that's the dates on which you allegedly committed these acts. Here you say

"16 IFP members were murdered on the 8th of April 1991. I can't remember other dates."

Do you have any comment to make on this?

MR PHAMA: I do not remember mentioning the fact that I do not remember the other dates. The only thing that I do not remember are the months, but at least with the dates, everything that I was involved in in Tokoza, I knew the dates.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then you're asked the places where these acts took place, and you say

"16 IFP members were killed at Tokoza stadium, 4 IFP were killed at Vereeniging Road and 1 traffic officer was killed at Alrode."

Do you remember having given this information to someone?

MR PHAMA: If I do remember well, though I cannot say who wrote that information, but I remember that at Tokoza next to the stadium, 16 IFP members were killed and even at Vereeniging Road, 4 members were killed. The traffic officer incident was never discussed. I got a shock when I realised that it was also in my file, and I did not know that I was sentenced for that incident.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't understand you too clearly. You say the traffic officer incident was never discussed and you got a shock when it was included in your file. Which, what time are mentioning now, when did you discover this? Are you referring to the trial or here at the Amnesty Committee, or what are you referring to?

MR PHAMA: I was surprised when I got that from my legal representative, telling me that I was sentenced for this traffic cop incident. That was not even mentioned in Court. The witness who was a traffic officer came in Court and then he told the Court that there were three people who were involved in that incident, three people who shot that traffic officer and I knew three who came with firearms. People who were sent to fetch the firearms, they were three when they came. That is the only group of people that I knew about.

So when he was telling me, he told me that I was also sentenced for that and I told him that I did not know that, all I knew was that - it was never mentioned that I was sentenced for a firearm, I was just told about the length of my sentence. The sentence was never split according to charges. That was never explained to me at Court. I got that for the first time from my legal representative.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The legal representative that you're referring to, is that Mr Padi, sitting next to you?

MR PHAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When did you see Mr Padi for the first time where you discussed these issues?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen, this question of the traffic officer, does it impact the case of your clients?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I would submit it goes to the credibility of this witness. I'm also going to argue at the end of the matter that one's got to look at these application forms as it is before the Committee, whether it complies with all the requirements of the Act, as well. The fact that there's certain formalities not attended to, although I personally don't regard that necessarily as that important.

But Mr Chairperson, I would submit that it is indeed important to establish the credibility of this witness. This witness for instance is now testifying that the first time that he realised there's anything about him being convicted for the killing of a traffic cop, is when Mr Padi approached him, yet it is contained in one of his application forms. I can't remember ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How does it impact on your clients' case? What is your - you represent - if I understand it correctly, you represent people who got injured in the stadium incident.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the dispute, what is the point of dispute between your clients and the applicant insofar as the traffic cop incident is concerned?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It relates to the question whether this applicant has made full disclosure in all the applications before this ...

CHAIRPERSON: And is your contention that he didn't make full disclosure in respect of the incident impacting on your clients?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That's also the position, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Or are you purporting to canvass the other issues also that doesn't concern your clients.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I say that that has a direct bearing on the credibility of this witness and the fact in total, whether he's making full disclosure of everything that he's regarding himself as being guilty of.

CHAIRPERSON: So is your argument that he lies on the traffic cop incident and therefore he must lie in respect of the incident concerning your clients?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There's other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because I've got difficulty to understand what is the relevance of this you know.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To you particularly.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, it is - the traffic cop incident is not directly important to my clients, but I am saying if he's hiding certain things away, relating to that matter, it could very well be that he's acting in the manner relating to the acts which he committed, which has got a direct bearing on my clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, isn't that where your focus really ought to be? And bearing in mind that we're not retrying this trial, we're not retrying what happened, this is an amnesty application. We're not a Court of law, we're sitting as an administrative tribunal.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I will leave it at that if you direct me to do so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I'm just drawing your attention to the fact that perhaps you know, dealing with the traffic cop incident in great detail you know, might not very well be all that relevant to your clients' case.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I wasn't really going to take the matter much further, except for establishing some of the dates when he first - there seems to be a bit of confusion also with the applicant himself relating to this matter. On the one hand he says that he only came to hear of this when Mr Padi, his legal representative contacted him, but there is a form that was already filled in where this is contained, which is 1996, and actually all I wanted to establish is whether Mr Padi was representing him at that point in time already. I wasn't going to take it much further, nor the merits of the matter or details as to what happened at that specific incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well let's hear.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just to repeat that question, Mr Phama, when did you see Mr Padi for the first time? If you can remember more-or-less the year, not the - you can refer to a year.

MR PHAMA: If my memory serves me well, he came two times at Leeukop. He came the first day to tell me that he was my legal representative. He came for the second time last Saturday. That is when we were discussing Saturday. I asked him about my charges, charges that were laid against me, those that led to my sentence, then he checked the books and then he told me that for a certain number of years it's the sentence about the traffic cop and the firearms. He mentioned the firearms and the Vereeniging Road incident and the sentence. I did ask him is possible for a person to be sentenced even if he was not present when this incident was happening, then he said if I'm the one who had issued the instruction I could be sentenced.

I asked him if it's possible for a person to be convicted of firearms, whereas he was never found in possession of firearms. I did ask the High Court to produce those firearms that were written on the dockets, but those dockets were not there. I did ask such issues. I canvassed such issues with him and then he did explain to me. That is when I told him that if I knew that if you had issued an instruction you are supposed to ask for amnesty, apply for amnesty and he told me that I was supposed to apply for amnesty for that incident. I did not like what happened to that traffic cop because he was not among our enemies. I couldn't instruct anyone to go and attack the TPA people. We were not using the small firearms at Polla Park, but we were using the big firearms.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Phama, if we can just ...(indistinct) for a moment. Were you represented by counsel at the criminal trial?

MR PHAMA: The representative that was there for me, I was forced to get that legal representative. He was from the government and there was no progress for three days and the judge and the prosecutor forced me to have that person as my legal representative and I had nothing to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms van der Westhuizen, we might have been listening to privileged communications as well you know, that's what happens with this kind of thing, when you have a person in the position of this applicant. But carry on, let's see.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just one more question regarding this issue. Can I ask - to make it very simple to you, Mr Padi sitting next to you, did you first see him during the course of this year? Will that make it easier for you?

MR PHAMA: Even if I did not see him for the first time this year, but I think I know his face, though I cannot say where did I see him before. I only got to know that he was a legal representative this year when he came to me to tell me that he was there for me and then he left his business card for me and I knew then that this was the person who was my legal representative. But I think I know his face.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Phama. Page 9(iv), you have to state the nature and particulars of the offences, and here you say

"I shot 16 IFP members at Tokoza stadium because I was ordered by my commander. I shot 4 IFP members at old Vereeniging Road, because I was ordered by my commander. The traffic officer was not shot by me and I was not involved. I don't know how my name was implicated. I was very loyal to my organisation and my commander."

Do you remember having given this information to the person who filled in your form?

MR PHAMA: Yes, I do remember that, but the one in the incident of the traffic cop I do not remember, if you say it is included there. I do not remember telling him about that, I only got to know about that when my legal representative explained that to me. It does not appear in each and every form that I had filled in and forwarded to the Truth Commission. There is nowhere where I included that incident, I only talk about IFP members.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to take you to page 10, 10(a). You're requested to

"State political objective sought to be achieved."

And you said here, your answer here was:

"During the time of political violence in our area, when IFP members were marching they used to kill people. I had to stop them. I was told that there was a fight at Rand Water Board in which ANC members were moved out and killed by IFP. My commander said I must kill IFP."

Do you remember having said that?

MR PHAMA: No, there is no such.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And the (b) part

"Your justification for regarding such acts etc., associated with a political objective."

You have a long answer, and I'll deal with it paragraph by paragraph to make it easier. You say:

"I was very loyal to my organisation and to my commander. When I shot the IFP members at Tokoza stadium, it was an order coming from my commander. He said IFP members might attack our people because they always attack when they have a rally."

Do you remember having said that?

MR PHAMA: We did not know that there would be a rally, or there was a rally, all we knew was that we were going to be attacked. We did not know the fact that there was a rally, or there was going to be a rally.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You cannot explain why it's mentioned here that you knew about a rally?

MR PHAMA: No, I won't be in a position to explain that, because as far as I know at a rally there would be police escorting, during the conflict in Tokoza. I do not think that the people would be attacked while escorted by police or soldiers. I knew that a group of - if people are walking in a group they were going to attack in Tokoza, if they were walking there without being escorted by police.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want to continue reading from your answer, where you say why you say the act is associated with a political motive. You say

"When I shot four IFP members at old Vereeniging Road, it was because I was told that there was a fight at Rand Water Board, where ANC comrades were kicked out and killed by IFP. The reason was that the IFP wanted to put their own members at this Rand Water Board factory. I was then commanded/ordered to kill those who are going to the factory."

Do you ...(intervention)

MR PHAMA: I am hearing that for the very first time, because all I know is that the ANC members were working at Mpompi. If there was a faction there I did not hear that information, I did not get that information.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then you continue and you just say

"I never killed the traffic officer, I was not present when the offence was committed. I do not know how my name was implicated."

Do you remember having said anything to that effect?

MR PHAMA: To whom?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The person who took down or assisted you in filling in this form, where you attach your signature on page 13.

ADV GCABASHE: You see, Ms van der Westhuizen, he doesn't even know who filled in this form, so all of those questions relating to the person who helped him fill out this form are difficult to handle because he hasn't a clue as to who completed this particular form. He spoke to a series of people, he's filled out a series of forms, but you can't tie down this particular form to a particular conversation or a particular face. That is the difficulty you are facing, and that's why the answers you are getting are not quite what you expect.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I understand that, Honourable Member, but then we're faced with the difficulty of - we're facing the question whether this applicant filled in any one particular form, if any one of these particular forms are actually properly before ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: He says he signed it. You asked him right at the outset. He said he signed this form.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: But the problem is, Honourable Member, that there's certain information contained in this document, it must have been said to a person, or it must have come from somewhere. So we need to seek - that is why I'm actually taking this applicant paragraph by paragraph, to see what he can remember, what he told to people, what did he admit to.

ADV GCABASHE: I have no difficulty with that, my difficulty is with the line of questioning where you're trying to tie a face or a name with the information here. You're not going to get anything out of him, he doesn't know. He can tell you that the conversation took place, probably with four or five different people, but he actually can't tell you who filled out this particular form that you're asking him about. So you're really flogging a dead horse.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I'll take it no further than that. Thank you.

Now Mr Phama, I want to take you to the so-called Khumalo Street or stadium incident that you testified about. That's where 16 people were actually killed. Before I continue - Mr Chairperson, can I just get an indication till what time we are going to sit today, before I continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, apparently the Correctional Services have requested that we try and adjourn around 4 o'clock today, so I assume we'll have to keep that in mind, but hopefully they will keep in mind that they will need to get this applicant back to this venue on time in the morning, because we only saw him at almost 12 o'clock this morning. But be that as it may, it looks like we're going to have to adjourn pretty soon. I don't know, how much longer are you going to be?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman, I actually have quite a few questions, I'm still going to be quite a while. I haven't started with any of the particular incidents, so I foresee that I'm going to be quite some time maybe, before I start off with the Khumalo Street incident, but I'll get a directive from you.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask, the people you are representing, their families were involved in the Khumalo Street and in the Rand Water incident, both incidents?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed so, Honourable Member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, then we'll adjourn at this stage. We are adjourning the proceedings until tomorrow morning. We'll reconvene in this venue at 9 o'clock in the morning. And I want the members of the Correctional Services to note in particular that we are commencing at 9 o'clock. I'm asking them to ensure that Mr Phama is available at this venue in time for us to start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning please. We're adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS