CHAIRPERSON: Our proceedings today which is the adjourned hearing of what has been called the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium incident, I would like to place certain things on record and that is the thanks of all of us to Dr Tsotsi who has been receiving medical treatment this morning which has enabled him to finally join us and the second one is Dr Louis Luyt who was on vacation in Durban and has flown up to be of assistance to the Committee and to the people of the country as a whole. We would like to thank both of them for having made this hearing possible.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, we are in a position to proceed and if the Committee will recall, the applicants had testified, Matshididi and Shoke. Mr Dumakude had given some evidence and the matter then stood adjourned. By consent there's no problem with calling Dr Luyt at this time and I have the agreement of my colleagues on this aspect, so with leave of the Panel, may I call Dr Luyt?
CHAIRPERSON: Well before that, can we go through the formality that we have been asked to do and would you all place yourselves on record please?
DR TSOTSI: Dr Tsotsi, Attorney, Port Elizabeth.
ADV SANDI: Adv Sandi from East London.
MS CAMBANIS: Crystal Cambanis, representing the applicants Shoke and Matshididi.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, Eric van den Berg representing the applicant Lester Dumakude.
MR KOOPEDI: I am Brian Koopedi representing the applicant Ithumeleng Dube.
MR RICHARD: Tony Richard, I represent Mrs Clucas and Mrs Erasmus.
MR PRIOR: Adv Paddy Prior acting on behalf of the TRC as Evidence Leader.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LOUIS LUYT: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Doctor, when you give your evidence, I think you're familiar with this type ...(indistinct - static interference)
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR PRIOR: Doctor, is it correct that during the year and in particular 1988 and we're dealing with the Ellis Park bombing incident, that you were the Chairman of the Transvaal Rugby Union situated at the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium in Johannesburg?
MR LUYT: That is correct, Sir.
MR PRIOR: On the 2nd of July 1988 it's common cause that a large motor vehicle bomb was detonated in Upper Meyer Street, in close proximity to the stadium.
MR LUYT: That is correct, Sir.
MR PRIOR: And that occurred, there's some confusion when it was, before the match had ended or after the match had ended, between Transvaal and I think it was the Free State, had played a rugby match.
MR LUYT: Yes, Sir, it was after the game ended because I went to the change rooms, to the players, when the explosion occurred.
MR PRIOR: Dr Luyt can you share with us your best recollection of the events of that particular afternoon and if you could possibly assist us with giving us your best recollection of the time when either the match ended or when the explosion occurred.
MR LUYT: As far as I can recollect the match ended roughly about 5 minutes to 5 and I would imagine that the explosion took place just after 5 o'clock because they were still undressing when this explosion rocked us all. So it was just after 5 o'clock when it took place.
MR PRIOR: And you say you were in the change rooms with the players?
MR LUYT: Beg your pardon?
MR PRIOR: You say after the match you were in the change rooms?
MR LUYT: Yes, I normally go to the change room and this was no exception, I went to the change room.
MR PRIOR: Can you tell us in your own words from that time on, from the time that you were aware or you heard the explosion and what happened thereafter.
MR LUYT: I immediately left the change room and inquired what happened and I cannot recall who told me, but somebody said there was a huge explosion on the north-east side of the stadium, then I saw one of the police colonels or brigadiers there who told me that it was a bomb that exploded and he accompanied me to the site.
MR PRIOR: Can you share with us also your observations as you left the stadium towards the area where the bomb had exploded?
MR LUYT: Yes, there was absolutely mayhem, people were scared, worried and everybody was running around and of course the whole area was cordoned off but being with the police officer, I was allowed through, and it was all like I said, mayhem there, bodies strewn about, parts strewn about, it looked like a war zone really.
MR PRIOR: Did you see injured persons? As you said, you saw bodies lying about, did you see people that had been injured or killed?
MR LUYT: I did indeed. I saw I think 2 at least, dead people, badly burned dead people, others with limbs off and yes, I did indeed, I saw them,
MR PRIOR: We understand from the documentation provided to us and the evidence that was tendered, that there was a bus belonging to the South West African schoolboy team that had played or had visited the stadium on that occasion which had been parked very close to where the bomb had exploded. Were you aware of that?
MR LUYT: I was made aware of that. I didn't see the bus myself, but I was made aware of that and somebody alluded me to the fact that it was there, there was this bus that was parked there, it was supposed to be going back with the schoolboys from Windhoek, ...(indistinct) for Transvaal at the time.
MR PRIOR: Was there any information from the South West, at the time, the South West African Rugby Union regarding this incident? Were you made aware of whether any schoolboys or any children had been injured at that time?
MR LUYT: At that time, no Sir, I was more involved in the other people who were severely injured and of course the dead people. I didn't really have time to apply my mind to rugby matters, I was more worried about the spectators.
MR PRIOR: Dr Luyt, what developments took place after the explosion? What investigations, if any, did the Union institute, were any negotiations or discussions held with any interested or any political group, subsequent to that explosion? Could you possibly just inform us of that?
MR LUYT: Well of course the police did investigate the matter, but I wasn't privy to how far they went with this, but I had discussions with the exile executive members of the ANC in Harare after the explosion and this meeting was chaired by Mr Alfred Nzo and my recollection, if my memory serves me right, Barbara Masekele was there, Thabo Mbeki, Steve Tshwete, a fellow by the name of McGregor, I think Aziz Pahad and perhaps Essop Pahad were also there, I'm not certain about those names, but most of the executive members of the ANC were there and I raised the point with them.
MR PRIOR: Could you possibly just give us some background as to how it came about that that meeting was facilitated? How did it come about and if you could possibly in broad, tell the Panel what transpired at that meeting?
MR LUYT: I was asked in about February, the beginning of that year, by Dr Craven to meet with ANC representatives in London to try and get the boycott on sport, rugby, lifted. There was the unfortunate incident where Dulcie September was murdered in Paris and we had to cut short that meeting but I was asked again to meet with the ANC in Frankfurt, roughly I would imagine just before June because there I met Mr Mbeki, the Pahad brothers, and a few others which I cannot name now because I cannot recollect their names and together we drew a document, which I then passed on to the government for (a) the release of Mr Mandela and (b) the lifting of the ban on the ANC and subsequent to that I received a call from Dr Craven to say that the ANC executive members are now ready to meet with us again in Harare, where I flew in my own plane, my private jet, with Dr Craven and where I met the ANC members. Well I said, Mr Nzo was the Chairman of this meeting.
MR PRIOR: Now apart from discussing other matters of interest as you've sketched for us, if you could possibly just focus on the aspect that you raised with that meeting regarding the bombing that occurred on the 2nd of July at Ellis Park.
MR LUYT: Yes, Sir, the first aspect I raised, that was almost in limine was the fact that I wanted to clear that because I said it's impossible for me to sit down with them and to discuss the way forward if a man who runs a union like I did and that stadium is bombed while I'm in discussions with them on the possible lifting of sanctions and the friendly matter in which we drew up the memorandum for the government and I was assured that they weren't aware who did it and who gave the instruction.
MR PRIOR: Doctor, that meeting was reported on in a press release. Now unfortunately we don't have the date or the newspaper. It appears that at page 109 of the bundle Mr Chairman, that is the bundle which is headed, The amnesty applications of Agi Shoke, Harold Matshididi, Lester Dumakude and John Dube, it's the bundle that contains the applications. Could I just show you that for purposes of confirmation, Doctor?
MR LUYT: Thank you.
MR PRIOR: And possibly just to ask you a further question, is the report accurate as to what occurred at that meeting regarding your discussion?
MR LUYT: This indeed conveys what I've said at the time. I was very upset and like I said it was almost like a point in limine before we started the discussions, that I had to raise this with the ANC executive because I was very upset about the bombing of Ellis Park at the time.
MR PRIOR: Could you possibly just assist us, the attendance on that particular or at that particular rugby match, was it a particularly well-attended game?
MR LUYT: Yes, those days we normally attracted about 50 000 spectators to a Free State/Transvaal game at the time and I would have imagined that would have been the case as well with that game.
MR PRIOR: We've had the benefit and we thank your organisation for providing two large aerial photographs of the stadium which have been placed on a table to the left of the Chair. In fact the aerial photograph which is of the All Black New Zealand game in 1993 gives an indication of where cars are parked. I presume cars belonging to spectators, that they were parked in and around the stadium.
MR LUYT: That is true. We had demarcated parking but then of course people parked wherever they could get parking and they used these side streets as well. Normally they pay the fee for that but they use all the side streets coming into Ellis Park to park.
MR PRIOR: And the exit closest to where the bomb went off at Upper Meyer Street would it be the north-eastern exit?
MR LUYT: Yes, we have a number of exits, but that would be the closest, the north-eastern exit, but also that's closest to the main parking area as you can see on the eastern side.
MR PRIOR: And would it be correct to say that at the end of any rugby match, one would expect a large volume of people to leave the grounds via that exit?
MR LUYT: Ellis Park can be emptied within 7 minutes and normally it's the case with big matches, for instance with the result it can be affected, that people start to move to get away from the stadium as quickly as possible, so it's normal that masses of people leave the stadium at the time at the time of the final whistle.
MR PRIOR: Before you are questioned by the other interested parties, is there anything that you wish to convey to the Committee in respect of the amnesty applications that are now before the Committee?
MR LUYT: I personally Judge, I personally cannot see the reason for the bomb to be planted there. I mean we were, that was a sporting event and at that time, you know we had been trying to get things normal with the ANC and that was the last place that I would have expected anybody to plant a bomb. I would have expected a bomb to be planted at a police station, for instance, but not at a sports stadium because those people are really innocent, I believe, and it's like going to plant a bomb at a soccer stadium. Who do you maim? Soccer spectators, soccer lovers and my feeling is that this was wrong, completely wrong, violent, out of place, untoward, to have done this.
MR PRIOR: Thank you, Doctor Luyt. I don't have anymore questions of Dr Luyt.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Dr Luyt, when was the meeting with the ANC at which they, you say that they didn't know who was responsible for the bombing? When did that meeting take place?
MR LUYT: My Lord, I tried to find that out a few minutes ago, I can't give you the exact date. I thought it was August, perhaps August, I'm not certain of the date but it was of course after the explosion.
MS CAMBANIS: And other than Mr Nzo, do you recall who else was present at that meeting?
MR LUYT: Yes, Mr Mbeki himself made it fairly clear, in fact he made it quite clear to me that they weren't aware of this, they weren't certain who gave instructions, if it even was the ANC who planted the bomb, it could have been another movement. That's what he said himself.
MS CAMBANIS: And that was the information given, probably a few weeks after the bombing. Is that correct?
MR LUYT: I'm afraid I can't hear you very well.
MS CAMBANIS: Information you say was given to you a few weeks after the bomb explosion?
MR LUYT: That is correct, yes, where we met in Harare.
MS CAMBANIS: Dr Luyt are you aware that the ANC has subsequently taken responsibility?
MR LUYT: Not that I'm aware of.
MS CAMBANIS: Dr Luyt, I will leave it for argument, but I put it to you that in the ANC Second Submission at page 13 at least the ANC have subsequently for the purposes of compiling their submissions taken responsibility for this bombing.
MR LUYT: I'm not aware of that, but if that's what you say, then obviously I have to accept it, but I'm not aware of it.
MS CAMBANIS: I have nothing further, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Cachalia on my left will not be forwarding any questions, thank you.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have questions for this witness.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG
MR KOOPEDI: Similarly, Chairperson, on behalf of Mr Dube, I have no questions for the witness.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Dr Luyt, it is true that since 1988 the area around Ellis Park has been considerably developed and improved?
MR LUYT: That is correct, yes.
MR RICHARD: How well did you know the vicinity at the time?
MR LUYT: Well, I knew Ellis Park since many years back when I played my very first rugby match there in 1952 so I've known that since then, but this was a new vicinity of course, it was built in 1982, the new Ellis Park.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now when you examined the pictures that have been displayed there, how different are those pictures from when the incident happened?
MR LUYT: Well it's difficult to discern really, but like I said, it looked like a war zone when incident happened, but the vicinity was the same, old houses, overfilled with people, slum area really and that's how I can describe Ellis Park at the time, the surroundings.
MR RICHARD: However, we can be certain that when we see roads depicted in those pictures, those roads were in exactly the same position at the time the bomb went off?
MR LUYT: No undoubtedly, that's true yes I've checked that, yes.
MR RICHARD: Now is it also not correct that when I examine that, those two pictures, they distort the apparent distances between two points, in fact they grossly overstate the apparent differences between two points?
MR LUYT: I'm not certain that I understand that one, do you mean the distance from the stadium?
MR RICHARD: Correct.
MR LUYT: I'm sitting here at a disadvantage, if I may get up perhaps?
MR RICHARD: That picture makes the distances look bigger, that's what I'm asking.
MR LUYT: Yes, it does.
MR RICHARD: Now you can see the swimming pool in the one corner there, can you?
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: How far - sorry keep your finger on the right hand button of the microphone - how far is the pool from the stadium approximately?
MR LUYT: From the park, the car park?
MR RICHARD: From the edge of the stadium.
MR LUYT: I would imagine about 55 / 60 yards, metres.
MR RICHARD: Then as you go round, when you have a look at where Beit Street and Upper Meyer Street is, can you identify them?
MR LUYT: Beit Street? Beit Street would be up here.
MR RICHARD: Beit Street would be over there.
MR LUYT: Yes, that's right.
MR RICHARD: And here's Upper Meyer.
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: Have you identified Beit and Upper Meyer?
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: Now did you enter into Upper Meyer Street on that afternoon?
MR LUYT: I did not, no.
MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, you said you did not?
MR LUYT: You mean after the match?
MR RICHARD: After the bomb went off.
MR LUYT: I came round the stadium, walked along the stadium and entered - what did you say, Meyer Street?
MR RICHARD: Upper Meyer Street.
MR LUYT: Upper Meyer Street, from the stadium side.
MR RICHARD: So you went into the street where the bomb went off?
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: Now from the crater caused by the bomb to the north-east corner of the stadium, how far would you estimate the distance to be?
MR LUYT: From the entrance?
MR RICHARD: There's the ramp that leads out of the north-east corner there.
MR LUYT: Can we just get this right? From here?
MR RICHARD: Yes.
MR LUYT: I would imagine not more than 50 yards.
MR RICHARD: Now the distance between the corner of North Park, that's the road that runs in front of the north side of the stadium, which forms a corner with the street in question and the next street up, that's Beit, how far would you say that block extends? In other words, one block of Upper Meyer Street.
MR LUYT: From here?
MR RICHARD: From the north-south access of Upper Meyer Street.
MR LUYT: You mean here?
MR RICHARD: Let me indicate.
MR LUYT: That would roughly be about say 60 metres.
MR RICHARD: From there to there.
MR LUYT: From there to there? No, no, no a lot less than that. About, it's difficult to say, about 40 - 50 metres.
MR RICHARD: So for the sake of the record your estimate of the distance of the block in which the bomb went off is about, could you repeat?
MR LUYT: 40 metres and 50 metres from there where the bomb went off.
MR RICHARD: Now I'm going to - yes you can take it away, thank you. Again in what I've numbered volume 1, that's the volume which has the applications and the maps and the photographs, after page 69 there's some unnumbered pages, there's a photograph.
MR LUYT: I've got it.
MR KOOPEDI: Sorry, what page is that?
MR PRIOR: After page 69 of the main bundle.
MR RICHARD: Then there's a blank sequence of pages and then a map which starts off there Scale and then North Park and it has "Hoopstandplaas" in the bottom left-hand corner.
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: It is correct if I orientate myself according to a map, south is at the bottom of the page, that's where the stadium is and north is to the top of the page.
MR LUYT: South will be then out of sight of the page.
MR RICHARD: Yes, behind us.
MR LUYT: Okay.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, in that map, underneath the spiral bind unfortunately, there's a legend G which points to what is described in the key to the map as the bus and then there's a letter H and so on. Can you see what I'm referring to?
MR LUYT: H I see. I can see yes.
MR RICHARD: And G is underneath the spiral bind.
MR LUYT: D?
MR RICHARD: G.
MR LUYT: Oh, I see, it's hidden away. Yes.
MR RICHARD: Now, how ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Is the map MR470788?
MR RICHARD : Correct Chairperson. Now, when you arrived there, how long after the explosion was it? How many minutes?
MR LUYT: First of all I had to get out of the stadium and then I walked around it and then I had to go through, it was cordoned off, like I said and I had this police officer accompanying me. I would imagine it too me about 10 to 15 minutes to get there.
MR RICHARD: Now, where on that - how many people were still in the road at that time - injured people?
MR LUYT: I saw the two dead bodies and injured people at that time, I don't know how many, I can't tell you.
MR RICHARD: But was it two or three, six or seven?
MR LUYT: No, I can't give you the exact figure. I can tell you that I saw the dead bodies, they were covered and I saw them, they showed me the dead bodies, burned, badly burned, and there they were attending to the other people. I can't remember, you know it's, at that stage one doesn't count the bodies, one is worried about what's going on.
MR RICHARD: But it was 10, 11 minutes, more or less?
MR LUYT: I would imagine, again I'm guessing.
MR RICHARD: Now you definitely recall seeing the dead people? Whereabouts were they? In the middle of the road, up the road?
MR LUYT: I recall on the side of the road.
MR RICHARD: And in the middle of the block or towards either end of the block?
MR LUYT: Towards the end of the block yes, towards the stadium side.
MR RICHARD: Towards the stadium side? And the people who were injured, the two people who had had their legs injured?
MR LUYT: Yes, I can't vividly recall this, it's eleven years ago now and quite candidly, I cannot.
MR RICHARD: Now when it comes to the time periods of rugby matches, what is the usual starting time of the main match of the day in an afternoon?
MR LUYT: Those days it had to start at half past 3 because of television and it was a 40 minute first half and a 5 minute break and then another 40 minutes.
MR RICHARD: So that meant it would take 40 plus 40 is 80, 85 minutes from 3.30?
CHAIRPERSON: Plus any extra time for injury and what have you.
MR RICHARD: And how much injury time?
CHAIRPERSON: There's usually about 5 minutes in a match, isn't there?
MR LUYT: Normally there's about 2 minutes injury time.
CHAIRPERSON: Each half?
MR LUYT: No, not necessarily each half. Sometimes you don't have it at all, but those days we didn't have the root defences and the referees decided by themselves. These days we time the injuries and you know exactly what's going on, but those days, they timed it themselves or they sometimes thought they timed it.
MR RICHARD: So at the most, from what the interchange between the Chair and yourself has said, a match might be extended by a maximum of 5 minutes?
MR LUYT: I would imagine that would be the maximum, yes.
MR RICHARD: So that means, let me just calculate it. I can take 3.30 as an exact starting point.
MR LUYT: You can take that as exact.
MR RICHARD: Plus, that's 90 minutes, that's an hour and a half so that takes us to 4.30, exactly to 5, if we give the maximum time period for injury.
MR LUYT: With injury, not later than 5 o'clock.
MR RICHARD: Now I have here a statement by a captain in the South African police at page 48 of the bundle, Stefanus Hendrik Koen Boardman and at paragraph 2 he says,
"At approximately 15h13 I heard a tremendous blow and I went to the scene of the explosion."
That 5.13 time, would you believe that to be substantially correct?
MR LUYT: But here he doesn't say 5.13, he says 15h13.
MR RICHARD: Sorry 15.13.
MR LUYT: That's thirteen minutes past 3.
CHAIRPERSON: That's before the match had started.
MR LUYT: Yes.
MR RICHARD: I submit that that's an error, it should be 17.13. Would you believe that the bomb went off at about 10 past 5? Could that be correct? 13 minutes past 5?
MR LUYT: No, I don't think so because to go back to my testimony, I was in the change room when it went off and say it went on to 5 o'clock, they were still undressing, and they normally do that. They have a ...(indistinct) of a minute or two and then this huge explosion rocked us all. In my mind it would have been 5, 7 minutes, I don't know, but you know one doesn't look on one's watch at the time.
MR RICHARD: Now in other words, if the bomb went off a few minutes after 5, the submission I will make is it's only consistent with an intention to blow up people as they left the stadium. Would you agree with that argument?
MR LUYT: There can be no doubt, there is no doubt in my mind that the idea was to injure as many people as possible, because like I said, the normal game, 50 000 spectators normally for this game and the idea must have been to injure as many people as possible.
MR RICHARD: At what - how many minutes after the end of the match would be the maximum period, in your experience, that people would be going out through the exit.
MR LUYT: A number would leave earlier to get away from the traffic, a number would still rejoice if their team won and that you normally get. Kids would play on the fields so their parents would wait for them, so there'll be a constant stream of people going out.
MR RICHARD: For about how long?
MR LUYT: I would imagine that it could be as long as three-quarters of an hour. It depends on what you allow on the field. Like these days we allow the children to play for half an hour after the game.
MR RICHARD: Now who went with you to Lusaka on the first occasion? Or let me rephrase it, how many times did you meet with the ANC?
MR LUYT: I went alone. Prof Johan Claassen was supposed to go with me but he did not accompany me, but he had nothing to do with Safo, Tommy Betfin, he was the contact man apparently between Safo, Dr Craven and the ANC. At that time I wasn't involved at all, but he met me in London.
MR RICHARD: Now, do you recall anything about an announcement made about a billion casualties and all the rest by the ANC during the second half of 1988?
MR LUYT: Would you kindly repeat that please?
MR RICHARD: Sometime during the second half of 1988 there was an announcement by the ANC, do you recall that?
MR LUYT: What announcement was that Sir?
MR RICHARD: Concerning civilian casualties.
MR LUYT: I cannot say definitely that I recall such a statement, but it could have been.
MR RICHARD: Very well, if you don't recall it.
MR LUYT: But you must remember that I spoke to them in the second half of 88 where they denied the bombing of Ellis Park.
MR RICHARD: Because in August 1988 there was a meeting of the National Executive of the ANC, but if you don't recall it, I'll leave the point. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?
MR PRIOR: I have no re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR
CHAIRPERSON: I would like to clarify something please. The witness was asked about the ANC's statement which was put, Second Submission at page 13, is that the submission dated the 12th May 1997?
MS CAMBANIS: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: And on page 13 the heading is "Armed Operations and Civilian Casualties"?
MS CAMBANIS: Yes Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And there the ANC sets out what the TRC has asked them about.
MS CAMBANIS: That is correct, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: And the ANC's reply is to be found on page 16 in the last paragraph on the left-hand side of the page.
"With regard to the Ellis Park car bomb in 1988 about which the TRC has asked a number of questions, the information required is contained in an amnesty application."
MS CAMBANIS: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the sole reply by the ANC to the request.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair.
MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I attempted to locate exactly what the ANC says in its submissions about this incident. They refer us to an amnesty application and in due course it was my intention to question Mr Dumakude whether this is the amnesty application. It's not listed as one of the events for which they take responsibility.
CHAIRPERSON: That's why I asked the question, to clarify the position. Thank you.
MR PRIOR: May Dr Luyt be excused, he has a flight back to Durban.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to Dr Luyt being excused?
MS CAMBANIS: Chair if I can ask indulgence just to clarify one aspect with Dr Luyt please.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Dr
Luyt, in your evidence in chief as it were to Mr Prior, what you said is that the ANC said that they were not aware of who did it and therefore they could not accept responsibility until they knew what had happened. Is that correct?
MR LUYT: That is so, yes.
MS CAMBANIS: So it is not as my learned friend has put to you, they did not deny responsibility, they simply said they did not know?
MR LUYT: At that point in time and like I said in my evidence in chief, as you call it, that Mr Mbeki said that he wasn't aware of this and of course they denied it until they could go into it to see who gave the instruction, if at all they gave the instructions.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a denial or was it a refusal to accept responsibility till they knew who had done it?
MR LUYT: Mr Chairman, afterwards I raised the point again and I was told again that they still didn't know, that was some time after.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
ADV SANDI: Just one thing Dr Luyt, in your discussions with the ANC leaders pertaining to this incident, what did they have to say concerning the policy of their organisation regarding this incident?
MR LUYT: They had - we didn't discuss policy really, we discussed the incident and obviously regarding what we've discussed, that they weren't sure whether such instruction was given, one must accept that could have been part of a policy to bomb certain places. That would be a normal man's deduction. I would deduce from the answer, we don't know until we have investigated this, that they could have been involved, but at that time they disallowed that because they didn't know.
ADV SANDI: Now can I take it from what you've just said that they did not say, "this is something which could never have been in line with our policy"?
MR LUYT: Well you can take it for certain that when I mentioned it, I said, "How can you do this to me, when I'm in discussions with you, I've met you now for the third time, I've met you twice and you explode a bomb at a stadium where a man who's discussing with you the future of the country, now I'm in the middle of all this" and they said, of course not, this wouldn't be, this would not be acceptable to them. That's exactly what Mr Mbeki said, because it couldn't be acceptable to anybody. If you discuss certain things with this person, to go forth and then upset the discussions by exploding a bomb. At that time I was quite certain that they didn't realise, or were not sure who gave the instruction, if at all there were instructions given. Like I said Sir I did ask after that meeting again, after the unbanning of the ANC at some stage I asked again, I asked of Mr Mbeki and he said "we still don't know". I can't recall the date but that was after they were unbanned. I met him at Ellis Park at a soccer game.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, but just one thing. You had - this was in 1988 and you were talking to an organisation which was banned in terms of the law, how did you deal with that? Surely you must have had to keep quite a lot of secrets of this?
MR LUYT: Sir, in the beginning I found it difficult to deal with it because, but I was asked by Dr Craven and I did it and I did it for the second time again in Frankfurt. It was very difficult for me because I could have ended up in Robben Island myself at the time. But it did leak out because like I said to you in my evidence in chief, and that is that I did prepare a memorandum for the government which Mr Mbeki and I did in Frankfurt for the release of Mr Mandela and also to unban the ANC and the basis on which this should happen. So yes, but nonetheless I was doing something for the country at the same time.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Dr Luyt.
MR LUYT: Thank you.
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I just clarify one aspect. Doctor the sense that I am getting of your evidence and after the questions put to you, did you get
the impression that the leadership of the ANC in Harare were surprised to learn of the bombing at the sports stadium at the time when negotiations with yourself were ongoing?
MR LUYT: Sir no, I don't believe that they were surprised because that was world news, but I immediately confronted them to ask them whether they did it.
MR PRIOR: And it was certainly not, "yes, we know about it, a decision had been made", it was more "we don't know, we'll have to check it out, we'll come back to you once we've found out." Was that the type of response?
MR LUYT: My feeling was they weren't sure who did it and why it was done.
MR PRIOR: And the impression that I get from your evidence, correct me if I'm mistaken, is that they also agreed that it was unacceptable in the context of the negotiations that you'd been having with them at the time, to just plant a bomb at that stadium.
MR LUYT: Mr Mbeki and I had a fairly good relationship and I had the feeling that he was upset about it.
MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I come back, have you any objection to him being excused?
MS CAMBANIS: None at this time, thank you Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR PRIOR: May I call Mr Coetzee?
STEFANUS CORNELIUS COETZEE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Coetzee, is it correct that you are currently in command of the security at Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg?
MR COETZEE: That is correct. I am the stadium manager and security falls under me as well.
MR PRIOR: We would like to thank you for coming here at very short notice and for the help you have given in giving us aerial photographs and so on. Thank you very much. Can you just tell the Committee, is it correct that on the 2nd July 1988 you were a member of the South African Police?
MR COETZEE: ; Yes, that's correct. I was a major.
MR PRIOR: And you were attached to the Security Branch?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR PRIOR: And your rank was Major?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR PRIOR: Were you on duty on that day at the rugby match?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR PRIOR: Could you please explain very briefly for the members of the public the presence of the Security Police, was that a normal occurrence, or what was the general practice at the time?
MR COETZEE: The practice at that stage was that all divisions of the police had to be present at sporting functions, in case of any problems. It was during the time when there was a lot of terrorist activity and it was our task to be present.
MR PRIOR: Can you tell the Committee briefly what happened after the explosion of the bomb and could you please tell us at approximately what time, according to your recollection, the bomb exploded? Could you give us an indication?
MR COETZEE: Chairperson, yes, at that stage I was on the north-eastern on-ramp near the private boxes and it was at approximately 10 minutes past 5 on the 2nd of July 1988 when there was this bomb explosion.
MR PRIOR: Can you tell the Committee what your physical position was in relation to where the explosion took place and could I refer you here to the aerial photograph which was also shown to Dr Luyt? Is it correct...
THE INTERPRETER COULD NOT HEAR
INTERPRETER: Could you just repeat the question please, the interpreters couldn't hear.
MR PRIOR: In what position were you standing, north-east or where?
MR COETZEE: It was on the north-eastern corner.
MR PRIOR: And it is common cause that the bomb explosion took place in Upper Meyer Street, is that correct?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: If we look at page 54 of the bundle, Mr Chair, the tower, or could I refer to it as a tower, it looks like that type of structure.
MR COETZEE: Yes, that's the on-ramp into the stadium.
MR PRIOR: Okay, that's the on-ramp into the stadium, is that what we see on page 54?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, its that turret-like structure, it's the on- or the access ramp on the north-eastern side of the stadium. Could you please tell the Committee what your immediate actions were after the explosion?
MR COETZEE: Well immediately after hearing the explosion we ran towards where the explosion had taken place because we could see this very clearly from the top. We tried to prevent people from entering into the area because many spectators were still leaving the stadium. The reason for this was that we were not sure whether there could be a next explosion that would occur and we also wanted to keep people away from the injured persons.
MR PRIOR: Could you tell us, before the explosion were spectators already leaving the stadium?
MR COETZEE: Yes, some of them were already leaving the stadium.
MR PRIOR: Were they outside the actual premises of the stadium, in other words were they in the street outside the stadium?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: Was that North Park Lane?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that was North Park Lane.
MR PRIOR: Okay, so you went down to go and assist the people down there and you say you cordoned off the area?
MR COETZEE: Yes that is correct.
MR PRIOR: Did you enter Upper Meyer Street?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I moved into Upper Meyer Street.
MR PRIOR: Could you please tell us what your observations were there?
MR COETZEE: Well the observations were that a vehicle had exploded. It was a BMW, a 7 series BMW that had exploded. There were injured people lying around. There were dead people in the street. There were school children who had been standing behind a bus.
MR PRIOR: Is this the bus that has been referred to previously from South West African schools?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct. Yes and there was total chaos.
MR PRIOR: The houses in the immediate area of Upper Meyer Street, could you see whether any damage had been caused to those buildings?
MR COETZEE: Yes, there were residential homes that had been severely damaged. One house had actually caught on fire and the fire brigade had come to put out the fire.
MR PRIOR: If you look at the aerial photograph, this was taken in 1992 is that correct?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is.
MR PRIOR: My observation is that there is quite a number of vehicles, particularly on the north-eastern side of the stadium. That is where most of the spectators find a parking spot?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: So after a match was that normally the case?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: So one would expect spectators to exit from the north-eastern side of the stadium and move in the direction of Upper Meyer, Beit Street etc. to reach their vehicles?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: Could you tell us what the situation was on the corner of Upper Meyer and Beit Streets?
MR COETZEE: On that particular corner there were people standing around and the area had been cordoned off by traffic officers. There were people standing around. There were also injured people on that particular corner.
MR PRIOR: So if you look at page 54 of the bundle, you will see that a cross has been made there on the corner of Upper Meyer and Beit Streets. Is that the position to which you are more or less referring where injured people were also lying in the street, or were found?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, do you have that position? I think it was during the applicant's evidence, I think it was Mr Dumakude, that a mark was made on the corner of Beit and Upper Meyer Streets, if you look at page 54. My query is essentially do you have that mark because I have it on mine. May I just approach you? Yes, and the witnesses confirm that that's more or less the position where he saw injured people as well. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
CHAIRPERSON: Page 55, the photographs there, do they show where the explosion actually took place?
MR COETZEE: I beg your pardon Mr Chair, I couldn't hear the question.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman yes, that's the crater in Upper Meyer Street where the ...
CHAIRPERSON: At page 55.
MR PRIOR: At page 55.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, have you got a copy?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Does that show where the damage in the road shows where the explosion actually took place?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So the car was, it would appear, not parked against the side of the road but almost in the middle of the road?
MR COETZEE: That is correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, possibly if you allow me just one indulgence.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: If you look at page 62 of the same bundle, you see in Upper Meyer Street where the bomb had exploded, position A, you can observe the bus in position D and the stadium in the background, is that correct?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is so.
MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, you heard Dr Luyt ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, do we accept, is it common cause that these photographs are photographs which were taken of the scene after the explosion? We don't have to go through putting each one of them to a witness?
MS CAMBANIS: We accept on behalf of our applicants, yes.
MR VAN DEN BERG: It's the same position in respect of Mr Dumakude.
MR KOOPEDI: It's the same with us too, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So all those photographs are in. Thank you
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you. Sir, Dr Luyt has told the Committee that he would describe the area around Ellis Park as a slum area. Would you agree with that?
MR COETZEE: At that stage, yes.
MS CAMBANIS: At the time of the bombing?
MR COETZEE: At the time of the bombing, yes.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I have no questions for this witness.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG
MR KOOPEDI: Similarly I have no questions for this witness, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: As at July 1988, you were a Major in the South African Police, attached to the Security Branch, is that correct?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Now, so that meant that when the bomb went off and you went to the scene you would have a particular interest in noting what was going on?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Now, my first question is, how big was the radius of damage caused by the bomb? How far was the maximum point of damage from where the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: There was estimate damage at the stadium itself, that's plus minus about 65 metres away from the point of impact. I'll say about 65 metres.
MR RICHARD: What sort of damage to the stadium itself?
MR COETZEE: Structural damage as well as other damages.
MR RICHARD: Structural damage. So that would mean that the concrete work would actually be damaged?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Now how far up Upper Meyer Street, we now know how far to the south it caused damage, how far to the north did it cause damage?
MR COETZEE: I'll say another 50 yards or so.
MR RICHARD: So if we take the block between, the block in which the bomb went off, from the beginning of the block to the next street, what is the distance of that block? How long is it?
MR COETZEE: I'll say from the point where the bomb exploded to Beit Street, it's about 30 metres.
MR RICHARD: And then another 30 metres to the - so then how much further up Beit Street, beyond Beit Street would have damage happened?
MR COETZEE: Say another 30 to 50 metres, it's possible yes.
MR RICHARD: So certainly any bomb of this nature is random in its effect but anyone within that radius could have been killed?
MR COETZEE: Oh yes, definitely yes.
MR RICHARD: Now, you are also very familiar with the stadium. Between the time that the bomb went off and the end of the rugby match, would you agree or disagree that sufficient time passed for people on the south side of the rugby stadium, in the stands, to exit through one or other of the gates besides the north-east gate and come into Meyer Street?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR RICHARD: You heard Dr Luyt's evidence. How long after the end of the rugby match do you think the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: I'd say about approximately 10 minutes to 12 minutes.
MR RICHARD: Now do you think that was at 5 o'clock?
MR COETZEE: The explosion?
MR RICHARD: Yes.
MR COETZEE: No, it's a little after 5.
MR RICHARD: So do you, as you said in your evidence before, believe that the statement of 5.10, 5.13 is correct?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
MR RICHARD: Not 5 past 5.
MR COETZEE: No I'll say about 10 past 5 would be correct.
MR RICHARD: Now, if I understood you correctly, you were on the ground level of that ramp on the north east corner when the bomb blew up?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Did you feel the blast?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I did.
MR RICHARD: What was the first observation you made when you looked towards the bomb?
MR COETZEE: Well the first observation that we saw, that people were flying around, it was absolute chaos and there was a lot of smoke.
MR RICHARD: Thank you. When people describe a fireball, was that correct?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: Now, at that time, was it the main rush or were people just beginning to leave the stadium?
MR COETZEE: It was just when people started moving out of the stadium.
MR RICHARD: Now, how long did it take for you to get from where you were to the street itself, to where the injured people were?
MR COETZEE: Round about a half minute or so.
MR RICHARD: So that meant that when you saw it, you saw pretty much exactly how it was immediately after the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that's correct.
MR RICHARD: May I return to the unnumbered page in the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you ought to number them or give them - there are too many unnumbered pages. When you say "I'm turning to the unnumbered page" which one do you mean?
MR RICHARD: The page numbered MR47-07, which I will now number 69(a). And then for the sake of convenience, the next one which is also a map, is 60(b).
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one that has the scale in metres on it?
MR RICHARD: 69(a) is the one which has the scale in metres.
CHAIRPERSON: 69(a) is on the left-hand side and on the other side there's another page. There are two pages facing one another.
MR RICHARD: Chairperson, it is the same map.
CHAIRPERSON: It may be the same map, it is two pages.
MR RICHARD: Correct. That is 69(a) and (b).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR RICHARD: And then there are two more blank pages.
CHAIRPERSON: And then 69(c) and (d)?
MR RICHARD: Correct. Now it you have a look at 69(b) and 69(a), how far would you say - sorry Mr Coetzee are you with me now?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
MR RICHARD: If you have a look at 69(a) and (b), you can see in the spiral bind the position of the bus labelled G.
MR COETZEE: Yes Sir, I do.
MR RICHARD: How far would you say is the distance from the corner to the bus?
MR COETZEE: About 30 metres.
MR RICHARD: Now if you turn to page 69(c) and (d), and look at the two aerial photographs which were displayed to you, would you agree with the submission that if someone was standing at or near the intersection of Beit and Upper Meyer Streets, they could look back and see the entrance to the stadium?
MR COETZEE: That is correct, Sir.
MR RICHARD: Now, would you also agree that if a school rugby team was standing between the open stands and the bus, that team would be clearly apparent to somebody standing at the corner of Beit and Upper Meyer?
MR COETZEE: Definitely, Sir.
MR RICHARD: Now, as you entered into that street, how many injured people did you see in the street?
MR COETZEE: If I can recall correctly, it was about 30 injured people.
MR RICHARD: Now where in the street approximately were they? I know it's a long time ago.
MR COETZEE: Well Sir actually they were all over in the street. Some were at the bus, injured, some of the - the trainer of the South West African team was injured. All around up till Beit Street and down to the bottom of North Park Lane.
MR RICHARD: Now in the evidence of Mr Dumakude given at the last hearing he described the scene as one where all he could see when he detonated the bomb was the two deceased. Would you accept that statement?
MR COETZEE: Definitely not, Sir.
MR RICHARD: In other words, Mr Dumakude could clearly have seen approximately 30 or more other people in the street?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR RICHARD: Now, when you looked at the crater which is point A on the map, how big was it?
MR COETZEE: I'll say it was about three-quarters to a metre deep.
MR RICHARD: And how wide?
MR COETZEE: About 2 metres.
MR RICHARD: Now when one looks at the map on 69(c) and (d), how far up Upper Meyer Street were there injured people?
MR COETZEE: It's about 2 metres from the corner of Beit.
MR RICHARD: And how many were there? Do you recall?
MR COETZEE: I recall, I think if I can remember correctly, it was about 2 or 3 people that were injured.
MR RICHARD: And were there any injured on the left or right in Beit street?
MR COETZEE: Yes, there was a person in Beit Street that was injured as well.
MR RICHARD: Now, at that time, were you aware where the traffic police and the South African Police put up security cordons or points of control to control entrance? Yes, or no?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is normal practice.
MR RICHARD: And now, where in the region of Beit and Upper Meyer Street and North Park Street were such controls, or security blocks, road-blocks?
MR COETZEE: There's one on the south corner of Beit and Upper Meyer.
MR RICHARD: So there was one on the south side of Beit at the corner of Beit and Upper Meyer?
MR COETZEE: That's right.
MR RICHARD: Now when would that have been put in place?
MR COETZEE: That would have been put in place at 8 o'clock in the morning, Saturday morning already.
MR RICHARD: And when would have it been removed?
MR COETZEE: Just after the game, as soon as the spectators left the stadium.
MR RICHARD: Would it have been there between the hours of 4.30 and 5 o'clock?
MR COETZEE: Yes, definitely, Sir.
MR RICHARD: Now, when - where were the other controls?
MR COETZEE: The other controls were a little bit further up than this, on the corner of North Park Lane, there was a barrier there as well, all around the stadium, Erin Road, all those places.
MR RICHARD: So that means the inference that I draw is correct, that no-one could have got into that stretch of Upper Meyer Street unless they went through a security control?
MR COETZEE: That is so.
MR RICHARD: And it also is correct that those security controls were still in place?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR RICHARD: When the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of control was it? Was it people standing there?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: So there were people standing at the corner of Upper Meyer and Beit Streets when the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they injured?
MR COETZEE: Some of them were injured, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the Security people?
MR COETZEE: No, not of the Security people, but of the spectators.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about the security people you say were there controlling. They were right in the line of fire, weren't they?
MR COETZEE: I guess they were lucky Sir.
MR RICHARD: Were these police or civilian traffic officers?
MR COETZEE: They were traffic officers in uniform.
MR RICHARD: Now, who investigated the explosion? Who was the investigating officer to the incident?
MR COETZEE: It was a W/O Britz.
MR RICHARD: Do you know where he is now?
MR COETZEE: No, I'm afraid not.
MR RICHARD: Which section of the Security Branch investigated this matter, do you remember?
MR COETZEE: It was Section A, I think, if I recall it correctly.
MR RICHARD: Who was the overall Commander of Section A?
MR COETZEE: It was Lieut Col Dries Struwig.
MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, could you repeat?
MR COETZEE: It was Lieut Col Dries Struwig.
MR RICHARD: Now, had you walked in Upper Meyer Street on any other occasion before the bomb went off?
MR COETZEE: Yes, we did.
MR RICHARD: Could you tell us whether the houses on either side of the road or buildings were occupied or unoccupied?
MR COETZEE: No, they were occupied.
MR RICHARD: Why would you say that?
MR COETZEE: Because there were people living there and some of them let the people park in their yards.
MR RICHARD: Now, I don't believe there are any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD
MR PRIOR: I have no re-examination.
Sorry Mr Chairperson there is one aspect which I would beg leave just to clarify.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Coetzee, if we look at this map on page 69 (c) and (d), do you have that in front of you?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I do.
MR PRIOR: If one looks at this, there is reference to Protea Car Hire in the upper left-hand corner.
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: And across the road from that we have Shoe Craft, or Show Craft.
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: Where, according to you, were these security persons, on which corner?
MR COETZEE: It was on the south side of Beit at Upper Meyer. There is a point marked O, right across the street from point O.
MR PRIOR: You say where this letter O has been indicated?
MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRIOR: And if I understand your testimony correctly then it was impossible for anybody, if we were coming from the left and were to turn right into Upper Meyer Street, it would have been impossible. Is that what you said?
MR COETZEE: No it wasn't impossible, it was possible. The reason for this is that when an area was cordoned off and people lived in the area, then the instructions were that if there were visitors coming to the residents of the houses, they should be admitted.
MR PRIOR: Were you aware of when the bus from South West Africa entered into the street?
MR COETZEE: No I don't know.
MR PRIOR: Would they have been able to, or would they have had to go through the security cordon in order to park there?
MR COETZEE: Yes, they would have, and they would have had a parking ticket, which they had.
MR PRIOR: May I take an instruction in respect of the evidence that he's just given? Thank you.
Mr Coetzee if we look again at that map, 69(c), did I understand you correctly that the security cordon was on Upper Meyer, or was it in Beit Street?
MR COETZEE : No, it was in Upper Meyer. Beit Street was open to through traffic.
MR PRIOR: Mr Dumakude, on behalf of whom I am appearing here, said that nobody had prevented him from turning into the street and as far as he could remember there was no security cordon when he went and parked the motor vehicle there.
MR COETZEE: I cannot reply to that statement because as far as I can remember, there had indeed been a cordon of security officers.
MR PRIOR: Are you saying that his testimony is incorrect, as I had stated it to you?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I don't agree with it.
CHAIRPERSON: Upper Meyer, in one of the plans I've seen, I don't know which one, appears to have a blockage across the top of it. Is that so?
MR COETZEE: According to this map, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So once all the parking in Upper Meyer had been taken up, there was nothing more for the security people to do, was there?
MR COETZEE: No Sir that's not correct because we had to look after the people's vehicles as well.
CHAIRPERSON: So they were there purely to guard people's vehicles and they were supposed to stay there till the match was over?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know if they did.
MR COETZEE: No, they did Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, did you see them there?
MR COETZEE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you say now that you remember eleven years ago you saw the uniform traffic policemen who were supposed to be on duty there?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: What was his name?
MR COETZEE: I can't remember his name, but it was definitely so because when we arrived at the scene after the explosion, they were still there.
CHAIRPERSON: But the scene after the explosion, that doesn't say what had happened before the explosion.
MR COETZEE: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, but no, as far as I know they were still there.
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman there is information, with respect, from the bundles provided, for example at A67 Mr Igbal Ahmed Fungidor, had brought in his catering truck, he was selling hot dogs and he was allowed through the control, the traffic control from Upper Meyer and Beit Street, so there is confirmation there was a traffic control at that point.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when was that control?
MR PRIOR: He says that was - he'd asked permission of the traffic van to enter his catering van that was round about 13.30, sorry 15.30.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What I would find perfectly easy to understand is that 5 or 10 minutes before the match is over, these traffic policemen would think there's nothing further for them to do there and they would drift off, or go and buy themselves a cup of coffee or something.
MR PRIOR: It is possible, but the fact that there is some corroboration for the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Prior, we also know there was a car with a bomb just passed this security. It seems extremely unlikely that someone would come with a car with a home made bomb in the boot, drive past security, park his car in the middle of the road, get out of it and walk away, while security were watching him.
MR PRIOR: Well, Mr Chairman, that appears on the statements. If one reads through the witness statements that form part of the documents in this hearing, that in fact that was the position. But we'll leave that for argument, I suppose.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
MS CAMBANIS: Nothing, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS
MR VAN DEN BERG: Nothing thank you Chair.
MR PRIOR: Can he be excused?
MR RICHARD: Chairperson, may I just ask one further question?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Was it not the function of the traffic officers to direct the traffic at the end of the game to out of the scene?
MR COETZEE: That is so because Beit Street was a thoroughfare, open for vehicles.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR RICHARD
MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, if he can be excused.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, you are excused from further attendance. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I place on record just some technical matters? At the commencement of the hearing some difficulty was raise with Mr Matshididi's form 1 application. Ms Cambanis has handed to me, I think there was a problem at the end of this thing, that there wasn't clear indication that it had been properly certified. She had now tendered to me proof that the form 1 had been received by the TRC, which had been signed and commissioned. That is in my possession and I will beg leave later to hand that up.
Now there are two other aspects Mr Chairman, which I raised at the outset of the hearing last year, was the status of the two bundles, that is the damage or the injury to persons which were put up in a 176 page bundle and it's obvious from there that these were statements taken from persons who had, were in the vicinity of the bomb blast, who had been injured. These statements were taken a short while after the injuries and they are accompanied by medical reports.
I've raised that matter again with my learned colleagues as well as the status of the damage to property of persons who had parked their vehicles and who owned properties in that area and they are yet to come back with a position whether they accept the correctness of those. Now Mr Chair as you will obviously appreciate, that if there are going to be objections to this type of information, then obviously my position would be to endeavour to bring viva voce evidence. That certainly wasn't the indication at the outset of the hearing, that there possibly were or could be difficulties, but I would like to just make the Committee aware that I have approached the representatives of the applicants and they will come back hopefully as soon as they can.
MS CAMBANIS: We can do that now.
MR PRIOR: Just to indicate whether they accept the veracity or the correctness of the information of those statements or not.
MS CAMBANIS: On behalf of our applicants, we do not dispute the contents of either volume,
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - microphone not on)
MS CAMBANIS: Or damage to property. That is correct, thank you.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, there's a single qualification in respect of Mr Dumakude and that is the matter which we've been talking about now. The 69(a),(b),(c) and (d). On those maps is indicated positions P and Q, I don't have the map in front of me and if one has a look at the legend, there is a position Q in Beit Street and a position P in Upper Meyer Street, I and my client have been through these bundles, we have looked at each and every affidavit, we have written down alongside the points as best we are able to which victim correlates with which particular position and we can find nothing which correlates with either P or Q, so subject to the accuracy of those two points, we have no difficulty with the contents of these bundles.
CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't the bundle you were being asked about, it's the other two bundles. The bundle headed Damage to Property and the bundle headed Persons Injured. You have no objections to that, and in the other bundle which starts statements of Adriaan Johannes Britz, after the applications are set out, you object only to the lack of any qualification or proof as to what P and Q on page 69 (C) and (D) are supposed to represent.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you for pointing that out to me Mr Chairperson. That is indeed correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Your problem.
MR PRIOR: Yes, I'm much obliged to my learned friend and the other point that has been raised, we will clarify that because it appears on the subsequent plan (c), 69 (c) and (d).
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't there somewhere, we haven't seen an index or guide to the plans?
...(indistinct - microphone not on)
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR PRIOR: And it gives the points where ...
CHAIRPERSON: Where the injured people were found lying. I don't think that, we know that a large explosion took place there and we know there were a number of injured and these are people who staggered away and were found there.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.
MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Chairman. The points P and Q appear on 69(c) and page 69(d).
CHAIRPERSON: And on page 52.
MR PRIOR: And on page 52, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman shouldn't we take a short adjournment? I know we started at half past 11.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it a short adjournment? Shall we take the adjournment now?
MR PRIOR: May we take the long adjournment and come back when? We'd be in your hands.
CHAIRPERSON: 2 o'clock.
MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Chair, before we adjourn may I have some indication of what the intentions are to finish this afternoon because Adv Prior and I have another meeting and we'd like to have some indication of when that meeting may take place, not relating to this application at all.
MR PRIOR: What the question is is do we have an idea when we are likely to conclude today's business?
CHAIRPERSON: What else do you intend to call? As you are aware one of the members of the Committee was brought here from a sickbed and it was to dispose of this particular evidence.
MR PRIOR: I have no further evidence. We will now then turn to the conclusion of the applicants' case, so we're in your hands, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we can adjourn till tomorrow morning then. Perhaps you can come and see me in chambers.
MS CAMBANIS: Thanks Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
