CHAIRMAN: Mr Mlaba, we have been informed that you are not feeling well, but that you are in a position to testify. If you are feeling tired or uncomfortable etc., please just let Mr Padi know and we can always take a short break so that you can recover a bit.
THULANI TERRENCE MLABA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi.
EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Mr Mlaba can you give the Committee your background, where you came from, where you were born, briefly please?
MR MLABA: My name is Thulani Mlaba. I was born in Natalspruit, that is Katlehong, Twala Section.
CHAIRPERSON: When were you born, Mr Mlaba, what year?
MR MLABA: In 1972 on the 6th of April.
MR PADI: Mr Mlaba, can you see the application form that is in front of you here?
CHAIRPERSON: Page 68.
MR MLABA: Yes.
MR PADI: Did you fill it in yourself?
MR MLABA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, I'd just like to clear up one point, before this, is your surname Mlaba or is it Mlaba Tsotetsi?
MR MLABA: Thulani Tsotetsi.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand because the surname Mlaba/Tsotetsi and then it's got first names in full, Thulani Terrence.
MR PADI: Can you explain to the committee where the surname of Mlaba came from?
MR MLABA: The surname Mlaba came about when I was arrested. I was arrested with Khumalo and Zwele and it was realised that Mafulela wanted to save me from this case, to take me out of this case, therefore he told me to use his surname so that everything could go easier on my side.
CHAIRPERSON: So your real name, in fact your name is not Mlaba, but Tsotetsi?
MR MLABA: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: So shall we refer to you as Mr Tsotetsi?
MR MLABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So I take it that wherever the name Thulani Mlaba has been referred to, we know it means Thulani Tsotetsi.
MR PADI: Mr Tsotetsi, who helped you in the filling in of this application?
MR TSOTETSI: The people who were filling the forms, the first one I was helped by one of the inmates Mike Bellingan.
MR PADI: Is it the one that is in front of you?
MR TSOTETSI: I cannot remember, but the other one was assisted by one legal representative. I cannot remember which one is it, the one that was filled by this fellow inmate.
MR PADI: So do I understand you to mean that you are not sure exactly who filled in this particular application form?
MR TSOTETSI: I cannot remember whether it's the one that was filled in by the fellow inmate or the lawyer.
MR PADI: What was the position when people were filling in these forms for you? Was it a case of you relating the whole story to them and having them fill in the application for you, or they would ask you particular questions and you would give answer which they would fill into the form?
MR TSOTETSI: They would ask me questions and I would respond.
MR PADI: Thank you. Mr Mlaba, in your affidavit which is on page 75 of that first bundle, I see that you are applying for amnesty for several incidents which include among others the incident of the killing and injuring of people at the Ngema tavern, is that so?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: The other incident relates to the killing of the Self Defence Unit member, known by the name of Norman Sithole, is that so?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: And you are also applying for amnesty for the killing of an ANC supporter by the name of Happy Thokoza, is that so?
MR TSOTETSI: It is not Happy Thokoza, I only know him as Happy, I do not know the surname. I have forgotten the surname.
MR PADI: I was actually looking at the typed transcript of the application form. You again indicate that you are applying for amnesty for the shooting and killing of people in the funeral procession of Mr Sam Nduli between Umshazaville, Madala hostel, is that correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: You also indicate that you were involved in the assassination of passengers on the taxis and you are applying for amnesty for those events as well, is that correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: You further indicate that you are applying for amnesty for the shooting and killing of people who refused to join the IFP and those people who were evicted from their homes as a result of their refusal, is that correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: You are further applying for amnesty for the kidnapping and killing of Sam Mashiane, is that correct as well?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: You are also applying for amnesty for conspiring with people who killed Mr Sam Nduli, is that correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Will you please repeat the question?
MR PADI: You are also applying for amnesty for your role in conspiring with people who killed Mr Sam Nduli, is that correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: You are further applying for amnesty for conspiring with people who killed the business persons known as Sesdodo and Mr Ndaba on the day of the Ngema Massacre, is that also correct?
MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.
MR PADI: He's getting a bit exhausted, Mr Chair. I wonder if we can take a short moment?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll just take a short adjournment, five minutes or so and Mr Padi if you could just let us know as soon as the witness feels that he is in a position to resume? If it's going to be longer than 5 or 10 minutes, if you can come and inform us what the situation is. Thank you. We'll take a short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. It's quite apparent to us the Mr Tsotetsi is not a well man, in fact it would appear that he is very ill. We during this adjournment have had discussions with the legal representative and members of the Correctional Services. We haven't got any medical report, we don't know exactly what Mr Tsotetsi's ailment is. We have been informed through Mr Padi, Mr Tsotetsi's legal representative that he is not in a condition to carry on today with his testimony, he is feeling very weak. Mr Padi also informed us that during his consultations with Mr Tsotetsi they also didn't go easily, he loses his concentration quite quickly and is very tired and listless. We have not been able to get hold of a medical practitioner who has treated Mr Tsotetsi in the past.
In the circumstances, it would seem that the best course to follow now would be just to adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine, see what Mr Tsotetsi's condition is then and hopefully in the interim period, if we could get some sort of, if at all possible, some sort of medical report or report as to what his ailment is.
If it's - if we're in a situation tomorrow where we cannot continue because of Mr Tsotetsi's illness, we'll have to then consider what next step to take. It might be to postpone to the next day or to postpone it to a date to be arranged in order for him to get further treatment. We as a Panel are reluctant for him to be forced, and I use that word in inverted commas, "forced" to give evidence when he's in this condition because he might not be able to concentrate properly and the evidence that we might get at the end of the day, if he's not well, might not be reliable because of his physical condition and we don't want to get into that sort of situation.
So I apologise that we have to adjourn now, but you all know it's for reasons that are unavoidable. So at this stage then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at the same venue at half past nine in the morning and see if we are in a position to proceed or not. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
