CHAIRPERSON: Now Ms Lockhat, there's a situation with a witness who is apparently only available this afternoon.
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, that is Mr van der Walt and it is in the Armed Robbery - Transvaal Galvanised Company, in that matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Can we possibly deal with that matter, so that we can see if we can't assist that witness?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes. Thank you, Chairperson.
MR NYAWUZA: The next application is that of ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: Daniel Moele and the reference number, is it AM3108/96?
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, so that will be the one that we'll be hearing next. I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record. Mr Smit?
MR SMIT: As it please, Mr Chairman, learned Committee Members. I am J M C Smit, on instructions from the firm D P du Plessis Attorneys. I'm appearing on behalf of Mr Moele, the applicant in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Smit. Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: Thank you, learned Chairman. I appear on behalf of the victim, Mr van der Walt. I am Lindiwe Emily Vilakazi.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lynne Lockhat, I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Smit, is there anything that you want to put on record, or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?
MR SMIT: Mr Chairman, you will notice on the roll, maybe I can just put this on record at this stage, that Mr Moele is an applicant in two capacities, also in the capacity for an armed robbery at the Ormonde Satellite Police Station, where he's got a second applicant, Maj Mametse also appearing there. I was wondering regarding proceedings, if it wouldn't be easier due to the fact that everything is contained in one bundle, to address both the matters at the same time?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean you'll lead Mr Moele on both those two incidents?
MR SMIT: Mr Moele not necessarily, well I can lead him on both at this stage and then Mr Mametse whenever he testifies can then just corroborate. That is basically what I have in mind. So with your permission, I would then lead him on both the incidents, or would you rather prefer for them to be dealt with separately?
CHAIRPERSON: I was basically going to assist the witness, because I was told that apparently he's got some difficulty if we are not able to conclude the matter this afternoon.
MR SMIT: As it pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: So perhaps we should just take the first incident and perhaps it will save us a bit of time and then we can always come back to your client on the rest.
MR SMIT: As it pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: I assume the parties have no objection to that. Alright.
MR SMIT: As it pleases. I then have nothing to add.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him to take the oath?
MR SMIT: Yes, if he could be sworn in please.
ADV DE JAGER: Your full names.
DANIEL NTATE MOELE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Smit?
MR SMIT: As it pleases. I will then lead the evidence.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr van der Walt is interested in which incident?
MR SMIT: The Transvaal Galvanised Company incident.
ADV DE JAGER: So we'll continue with that one?
EXAMINATION BY MR SMIT: That is the one we're dealing with. It does not concern Maj Mametse, so I will just deal with that one.
Mr Moele, as you heard now we will only deal with the robber at the Transvaal Galvanised Company at this stage. You submitted certain statements and confirmed that you were involved in that robbery, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That's correct, Sir.
MR SMIT: At that stage when this robbery ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I would like to get from the applicant just what language he prefers testifying in.
MR SMIT: I think the witness said sePedi. Is that channel 4?
INTERPRETER: That is correct, Chair.
MR SMIT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
So you say you were involved in this robbery.
MR MOELE: Yes.
MR SMIT: How many people accompanied you on this day?
MR MOELE: We were four.
MR SMIT: And is it correct that this was during July in 1993?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: At that stage you were a member of the ANC, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: And what capacity did you act in?
MR MOELE: I was the Deputy Commander of the Self Defence Units.
MR SMIT: Who was your commander?
MR MOELE: My commander was a Mr Mametse.
MR SMIT: So would I then be correct in accepting that you were second-in-charge in this area?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, which area is that?
MR SMIT: In what area were you second - your commander and yourself, over what area were you in charge?
MR MOELE: Katorus.
CHAIRPERSON: The Katorus Self Defence Unit?
MR MOELE: Yes.
MR SMIT: Now the decision to go to the Transvaal Galvanised Company to obtain money there, whose decision was that?
MR MOELE: It's me who came up with that decision.
MR SMIT: Did you receive instructions from anybody to get funds?
MR MOELE: Yes, there were orders that we must go and get funds.
MR SMIT: Who gave these orders?
MR MOELE: Our commander, Mr Mametse.
MR SMIT: Did he specifically say to you to go to the Transvaal Galvanised Company to get the funds, or did you out of your own accord decide that was the place to do the robbery at?
MR MOELE: He did not tell us to go to Transvaal Galvanised Company, he told us that funds were needed. Where to get hold of the funds he did not say.
ADV DE JAGER: Did he say you should rob or should you go out with a collecting list and collect funds? What was your order?
MR MOELE: He gave us the order to gather money and it's true we asked from people, the shop owners, we asked for donations, but the money that we got was too little compared to the sum of money that was needed.
ADV BOSMAN: In whose opinion was it too little, in your own opinion?
MR SMIT: We knew the sum that was wanted, that is R10 000 and the money collected from the shop owners and anybody who was able to assist, the money was not even up to R6 000, and we knew R10 000 was needed.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Did you have a set time in which to gather the money?
MR MOELE: We did not have a set time, but the money was urgently needed.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Mr Smit, you may continue.
MR SMIT: As it pleases. What was the money needed for?
MR MOELE: There was information that someone or some people were selling AK47s and the handgrenades, so we wanted them to protect the people of the township. There was also a possibility that these guns might end up in the hands of people who would fight against our people.
MR SMIT: Is that why you state that it was urgent to get the money?
MR MOELE: That is the reason, Sir.
MR SMIT: Then if we can move on to the day in question now that the robbery actually took place at the Transvaal Galvanised Company. You stated that there were four of you. Did you plan the robbery there?
MR MOELE: It was known that there's an amount of money that can be received from Galvanised Company. Myself and Thobile, it was decided that we go first and confirm that the money had arrived and that nothing had changed according to what we knew.
MR SMIT: Okay. This Thobile that you mentioned, did you know his surname?
MR MOELE: It's Thobile Zolo.
MR SMIT: And did you then establish that the money is still there?
MR MOELE: Yes, we discovered that the money had been delivered, but it was only going to be taken out at a certain point to pay out the employees. ...(end of side B of tape)
MR SMIT: ...(no audible question)
MR MOELE: ... after the money was removed from the offices to the place where it would be paid out we penetrated, we got into the place where money was and we threatened the person who gave us the money, we left and ran away.
MR SMIT: How did you threaten this person?
MR MOELE: We told the person that we were not there to assault him or her, we wanted the money.
MR SMIT: Did you use any violence towards this person?
MR MOELE: We did not use violence, we only threatened the person by pointing a firearm at the person.
MR SMIT: And did he then freely hand over the money to yourselves?
MR MOELE: Yes, even though he was scared because a firearm was point at him, he gave us money. Thobile accepted the money.
MR SMIT: After you ran away were any shots fired?
MR MOELE: Yes, when we were running away some people had toy guns and I shot in the air so that they can hear I head a real firearm. I shot just once.
MR SMIT: If you say "in the air", was your weapon pointed upwards to the sky?
MR MOELE: Yes, my firearm was pointing upwards.
MR SMIT: Did you get away with the money?
MR MOELE: Yes, we did manage to get away with the money, but things did not go according to the plan, that two, three, the other three were supposed to wait for us at the gate so that they assist in case we have troubles on coming up. They were not there, the car was also not there, so we had to run, we had to depend on our feet. We ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, before you proceed. You told us four people were involved, you and Thobile went into the building, now you talk of another three persons who would have waited at the gate.
MR MOELE: When we left the township of Duduza, we were going to be five, the fifth one was going to be the driver of the car and the others were going to assist when we retreat, but when ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Right, okay give us the names now before you proceed. Give us the names of the five people.
MR MOELE: The first one will be myself, Thobile would be the second, the third one would be Siphiwe Mkumo, the fourth will be comrade Maguala, the fifth one, comrade Raudi.
ADV BOSMAN: Were they all members of the Self Defence Unit?
MR MOELE: Yes, according to my knowledge they were all members of the Self Defence Unit.
MR SMIT: And were they all under your command?
MR MOELE: Yes, it's because among us I was the leader, so I was the commander.
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, Mr Smit. We're at the gate now, proceed from there.
MR SMIT: As it pleases.
So okay you are running now towards the gate with the money, who is carrying the money?
MR MOELE: Thobile accepted the money. Because some of the money was falling down, he gave it to me, I took the box. So we went to the gate, that was after I shot the one fire in the air. They were hiding because they heard the shot. We got out of the gate. We did not see the car and our comrades were nowhere to be seen. Why, I do not know. But we had to run because people were now screaming "Stop them, stop the thieves". We ran away.
MR SMIT: What did you do with the money?
MR MOELE: We split, Thobile ran his direction, I ran my direction. We were not actually - we didn't know where we were running to. I asked a lift from some people. I had taken out the lumber jacket that I was wearing and I covered the box with that. The people who gave me the lift were driving a white BMW. They did not know who I was, where I came from. Unfortunately they moved back to the direction where we took the money from and one our way there was a roadblock. We were taken out of the car, the car was searched, they did not find anything on me, but when they searched the car they found the lumber jacket with a firearm and the money. And the people who were in the car said "No, we don't know what this lumber contains inside, but it belongs to me". That was my arrest.
MR SMIT: And you were then put on trial and you are presently serving a 16 year sentence for this robbery, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MR SMIT: Just one last question. If you managed to get away with the money and you were not caught, what would you have done with the money that was robbed at the Transvaal Galvanised Company?
MR MOELE: I would have reported to the commander that we made use of the opportunity and the manner of gathering money that would in turn be used to buy guns and handgrenades that we so longed to have.
ADV BOSMAN: If I may just come in here, Mr Smit.
Did you not inform your commander beforehand that you were going to effect this robbery?
MR MOELE: No, we did not.
ADV BOSMAN: Why not?
MR MOELE: Because he said we must use our own initiative to get money. That money would assist us to get guns and handgrenades. So we were doing the initiative that he talked about. We were going to report after getting the money.
ADV BOSMAN: You were a trained MK cadre were you not?
MR MOELE: I am still a trained MK cadre.
ADV BOSMAN: Were you aware of the policies of the African National Congress at the time? Did it form part of your training?
MR MOELE: Yes, I knew the policies.
ADV BOSMAN: Was it part of the policy of the African National Congress to obtain monies through robberies?
MR MOELE: It was not the police of the ANC, but as members of the SDU, we were pressurised. The ANC was not assisting when it comes to the functions of the SDU, it only gave us the mandate to assist the communities within the townships.
ADV BOSMAN: Sorry. Was it not then - knowing that it's not in line with ANC policies, was it not really in those circumstances necessary to consult your commander before doing something that was generally regarded as out of line?
MR MOELE: I have already mentioned that I am also a commander and I have the authority to take tactical decisions, I would not wait for him not knowing his whereabouts and when he would be back.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Mr Smit, you may continue.
MR SMIT: Thank you.
The guns that you, or the weapons that you would have bought if you obtained the money, what were these weapons, what were they going to be used for?
MR MOELE: These weapons were going to be used to protect the communities that were under the attack of unknown people. They were going to be used again for the training of those who did not know how to use a firearm. They would be told where to go and get the firearms in cases where it was necessary to do so.
ADV DE JAGER: Would you use a handgrenade to protect your community?
MR MOELE: Yes, if a handgrenade is handled by well trained people, it can be used to defend the community.
MR SMIT: Thank you, I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMIT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Smit. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions?
MS VILAKAZI: I have a few questions, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr Moele, you said that you were given instructions to raise money, who gave you the instructions?
MR MOELE: That was our commander, Mr Mametse.
MS VILAKAZI: But now when you went to rob, Commander Mametse did not know that you were going out to rob, is that correct?
MR MOELE: Yes.
MS VILAKAZI: Now who gave you the instruction to go and rob Transvaal Galvanised Company?
MR MOELE: I repeat, I was the Deputy Commander to Commander Mametse and I had the authority to take what we call tactical decisions, as I deem fit to do so.
MS VILAKAZI: When did you take the decision to go and rob Transvaal Galvanising?
MR MOELE: I was at Duduza with the comrades and I was telling them about this need of raising funds and they said, they mentioned that there was information to the effect that there's money at Transvaal Galvanised Company that we can get hold of without injuring anybody, without even firing.
MS VILAKAZI: And where was Commander Mametse at that time?
MR MOELE: He was left behind at Katorus because Duduza is removed from Katlehong, Thokoza and Vosloorus.
MS VILAKAZI: So did you go out to rob Transvaal Galvanising immediately after taking that decision?
MR MOELE: I do not understand. What do you mean when you say "immediately"? Because we went out to confirm, to investigate as to whether the situation was as we were told it to be. It was myself and Thobile who went out and we found the situation to be as we were told and there was nothing new, and I then took a decision to act.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay, let me rephrase my question. When did you obtain information that you could get money from Transvaal Galvanising Company?
MR MOELE: On the 7th of July 1993.
MS VILAKAZI: From whom did you get the information?
MR MOELE: It's a member of the Self Defence Unit who once worked at Transvaal Galvanised Company.
MS VILAKAZI: And then you went on to rob the company immediately on that day, is that correct?
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MS VILAKAZI: Now, at what time did you go and check? Can you just take us through the process of the minute when you got the information, when you went to check and then when you went to rob.
MR MOELE: Three were left in the township. We did not want to go carrying firearms because there were usually roadblocks between townships and towns. We took a taxi to Transvaal Galvanised Company, to go and investigate and I realised that there was no possibility of fighting with people. I then took a decision to phone those who were left behind in the township to come with guns, small guns, pistols, so that we can act.
ADV DE JAGER: Which township are you referring to now, Katorus or where?
MR MOELE: I'm talking about Duduza now.
ADV DE JAGER: And were your members of the SDU at Duduza or at Katorus?
MR MOELE: Our people were members of Katorus. Duduza was quiet at that time ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I only want to find out, the five people were they all from Katorus or were some of them from Duduza?
MR MOELE: Three of them were from Katorus and two were from Duduza.
ADV DE JAGER: So they were not - all of them were not members of your SDU in Katorus?
MR MOELE: Yes, two were not members of Katorus SDU.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
MS VILAKAZI: Just a follow-up on the last question. You say two were not members of the Katorus SDU, were they members of any SDU?
MR MOELE: They were the member of KwaDunsa SDU. That is KwaThema, Tsakane, Duduza and Deveyton.
MS VILAKAZI: So at the time when you phoned they were not in the same place, is that correct?
MR MOELE: They were at the same place. They were left behind at one safehouse. That's where we left them when we went out to Vorsterskroon.
MS VILAKAZI: But then why did you decide to phone the members of the SDU, to come and assist in the robbery instead of phoning your commander and getting instructions first?
MR MOELE: The commander's phone at home was not working and we do not use the residential telephone for underground functions so to say.
CHAIRPERSON: But now which phone did you use to phone the other members?
MR MOELE: There's a system called safehouses. In other words, we have a hired telephone and we use codes when phoning there.
MS VILAKAZI: Are you saying that you could not use the same codes to communicate with Commander Mametse?
MR MOELE: The commander was out of sector, if you'll allow me to use those words, he was also busy. I would not find him anywhere through using a public telephone.
MS VILAKAZI: So if I understand you well, you cannot say that you were acting under the instructions of Commander Mametse, you acted as the commander at the moment because he was not there, is that correct?
MR MOELE: Yes. I want to repeat and say as the Deputy Commander of Mametse, I also had the authority to take a decision if and when I saw it necessary. When the situation allowed me I would not even ask permission from Mr Mametse.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you were executing a general order.
MR MOELE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Vilakazi.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay, let's got back to the scene of the robbery then. You said you obtained information that you could get money without harming anyone, is that what you still saying now?
MR MOELE: Yes.
MS VILAKAZI: Now if that was the information given to you, why did you arm yourselves?
MR MOELE: We would not just go there barehanded and say "Give us money", we were going to threaten him to give us money. Without a firearm they would laugh at us.
MS VILAKAZI: So will I be correct to say that you took guns to make sure that you get the money that you wanted?
MR MOELE: Yes, to threaten them. One firearm, to threaten them with the firearm and get hold of the money.
MS VILAKAZI: Would I still be right to say that had the opportunity to use the gun arisen you would have used it?
MR MOELE: I used the firearm, didn't I? I said I used the firearm, I shot in the air.
MS VILAKAZI: What did you shoot in the air for?
MR MOELE: There's someone who screamed, who screamed, who said "They have a toy gun", and I shot in the air to prove that it was not a toy gun, it was a real gun.
MS VILAKAZI: Who is that person who shouted that you had a toy gun?
MR MOELE: I do not know the person, I only heard. It must one of the workers because people were working there. I did not see the person, I do not know the person.
MS VILAKAZI: But where was this person?
MR MOELE: The person was on my right side.
MS VILAKAZI: From the evidence that you gave I get the impression that when you got hold of the money you were inside a building, is that correct?
MR MOELE: No, we were not inside the building. I don't know whether to call this a building, it's only corrugated irons at the top and no walls on the sides. When the money fell from the box we were outside. It's only corrugated irons at the top as the roof and no walls on the sides.
MS VILAKAZI: So when you got the money you were outside that structure that you're describing, or were you inside the structure? Where exactly were you?
MR MOELE: Thobile went underneath the corrugated irons, I was outside.
INTERPRETER: I think the distance can be estimated from where I'm sitting up to where the witness pointed.
ADV DE JAGER: Was this an open shed or was it like a veranda?
MR MOELE: People are working inside here. It was like a factory building, a shade for the employees. It's a big area.
MS VILAKAZI: But could you see people who were around that area?
MR MOELE: Yes, we saw people.
MS VILAKAZI: Was any of the people around there armed, from what you saw?
MR MOELE: I can't really say someone was armed, no-one openly had a gun or handling a machine gun. I am unable to know whether there was anyone who had a firearm.
MS VILAKAZI: But then you didn't see anyone carrying a firearm or any weapon of some sorts?
MR MOELE: I did not see anyone carrying a firearm.
MS VILAKAZI: So would I be right to say that there was no threat to yourselves at that point in time?
MR MOELE: Yes. I think that is the reason why we went out there. We knew that there would be a fighting and there would not be any killing.
MS VILAKAZI: And that should also have been a reason why you did not have any necessity to fire in the air. What is your comment on that?
MR MOELE: Someone shouted, he said "They are having a toy gun". Now that would make people want to get hold of us, that's why I shot in the air.
MS VILAKAZI: But you've just said that you did not feel threatened, so the only reason why you fired in the air was just to demonstrate that the gun was working, it was not to protect yourselves?
ADV DE JAGER: I think the reason for firing into the air was to show to the people "don't try and tackle us or arrest us, we've got a weapon, so stand back, allow us to get away".
MR MOELE: That is correct.
MS VILAKAZI: Honourable Commissioner, I'm asking this question because the witness has said repeatedly that they had information and they were sure that they would not be harmed in any way.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is in respect of the actual robbery, this is now in respect of the getaway. As part of the getaway there was an unexpected event that intervened, somebody was shouting that they're chancers, they're running around with a toy gun committing a robbery. So this applicant fired in the air just to show that there are no toy guns here, don't risk to apprehend us. So it's a form of defence as well. But this is to with the getaway, not with the robbery. Their information was that there would be very little resistance at the robbery itself and it turned out to be right, there was almost no resistance. But this was afterwards, as they were running away.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay. And then one last question. What happened after you shot in the air?
MR MOELE: I mentioned that when we arrived at the gate our comrades were not there with a car according to the plan, so we had to run away on our feet. That's what we did. We ran away, ran through the fence and myself and Thobile split along the way. I don't know where was he arrested, but I was arrested in the lift, as I've mentioned earlier on.
MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Ms Lockhat, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
You said that you specifically needed R10 000, why specifically the R10 000?
MR MOELE: The commander mentioned that there were eight AK47s and handgrenades and that person was selling all of them at a fixed price of R10 000. He would not sell one AK or one grenade, he wanted R10 000 for all of them.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you know of the contact person that you were going to get the arms from?
MR MOELE: Only the commander knew him.
MS LOCKHAT: At what stage did you tell Mametse, your commander, about this armed robbery, how long after the incident?
MR MOELE: That was after I was arrested. I was arrested on the same day, on the second day they gave me an opportunity to call home.
MS LOCKHAT: Would you have informed your commander of the incident if you had not been arrested?
MR MOELE: Yes, I was actually heading for him.
MS LOCKHAT: You said you had other comrades from Duduza area, who was their commander in Duduza?
MR MOELE: Their commander was known to us as BA. These are combat names. I only know him as BA.
MS LOCKHAT: And did the comrades of Duduza inform their commander that they were going to participate in this armed robbery?
MR MOELE: I do not know whether they reported, the told him, but they never told me they will tell him. I instructed them as their immediate senior at that time to assist us. I don't know whether they informed their commander.
MS LOCKHAT: Do you think that Mr Mametse would have authorised this act of yours, seeing that it was not in the policy of the ANC?
MR MOELE: Because of the pressure at that time and the fact that if we don't get hold of those firearms, they would end up in the hands of the people and those people would use those firearms against us. So he would not have a problem with that.
MS LOCKHAT: So you're saying he would definitely have authorised this act?
MR MOELE: I'm saying I don't foresee that he would have any problems.
MS LOCKHAT: How long were you a member of this SDU group?
MR MOELE: I came back from exile in 1992, and I was immediately instructed to be 2IC of Commander Mametse. I think I'd been nine months already.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moele, we're heard a number of Self Defence Unit applications in respect of the Katorus area, so I would just like to ask you a little bit of the general background that came to our knowledge during those hearings, specifically in regard to the relationship between the ANC MK, Umkhonto weSizwe and the Self Defence Units.
We understood that what happened was that the MK had instructed their members to assist the community in setting up structures to defend the community. In other words, it was a community initiative. Would that have been a correct understanding of how the SDU structures were put together?
MR MOELE: That is correct, you have it right.
CHAIRPERSON: And that the sum total of the assistance that was given by MK, was to make MK members available who could train members of the community who would become SDU members.
MR MOELE: Yes, that's how I also know it.
CHAIRPERSON: There was never a situation where MK supplied weapons for example, to SDUs, the initiative was left to the community.
MR MOELE: The trained cadres of MK, had they been given one AK47 each, that would still be okay, but then they would also be required to get more weapons, so that they can train the members and use those against any attack.
CHAIRPERSON: So the effect of this arrangement was that the community had to find a way themselves to acquire the arms for the defence and the protection of the community, they had to find their own arms.
MR MOELE: Yes, the community was supposed to take the responsibility of obtaining weapons and volunteer trustworthy people from the community, to be trained by the MK soldiers who resided among the very same community. I got involved because I resided in Vosloorus. I'm not from outside.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And do I understand this correctly, this initiative, this robbery was part of the Self Defence activity, it was not an MK, ANC/MK activity, it was a Self Defence Unit activity? In other words, a community activity.
MR MOELE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was part of that - and we've heard a lot of evidence about the raising of funds by the community to buy these arms from Mozambique and wherever they went to buy these things. So would this have been part of that fund-raising activity, to get the money for the arms?
MR MOELE: Yes, that is part of that. But there were situations in the process of gathering money, other families were needy and they would not donate anything and it would appear as if they did not want to assist. But we wanted money at this time because of the pressure that these firearms might end up in wrong hands and they would be used against the community.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were residing at that time in which one of the townships?
MR MOELE: Vosloorus. Even at present I reside at Vosloorus.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Are there any other questions from the Panel?
ADV DE JAGER: Who were the members of the SDU Committee in Katorus? Who was the Chairperson, who was the Secretary?
MR MOELE: There was a political leadership and what I would call a paramilitary leadership. I was in the paramilitary committee, because I was the Deputy Commander. I know the Chairperson of the township Defence Force, that is the Force that included all the political parties, they youth organisations, his name was ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: I'm only asking you for the names of the Chairperson and the Secretary for instance, of the SDU in Katorus.
MR MOELE: The Chairperson of the SDU, I know him as Commander Sofasonke.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes. And isn't it so that the political leadership that the paramilitary leadership was subject to the political leadership? They couldn't go against the orders of the political leadership.
MR MOELE: That was the situation.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever consult the political leadership in Katorus about this robbery?
MR MOELE: As the Deputy Commander I did not have the opportunity to consult the political leadership, my commander was supposed to do that. He is the person who also went for the meetings.
ADV DE JAGER: I see you refer here to the Peace Accord and to the DF Malan Accord, so you've been aware of all these accords?
MR MOELE: Yes, I understand them.
ADV DE JAGER: And you're then surely aware that in July 1993, negotiations were carried on here at Kempton Park, after the Peace Accord and that offensive strategies were disbanded at that stage, you wouldn't attack people at that stage, in accordance with the Peace Accord.
MR MOELE: Yes, I know of that. We were not attacking people here, we wanted money to get firearms to protect ourselves. And the Peace Accord did not prevent the people under attack to protect themselves, they were saying people have the right to protect themselves if attacked, but they did not provide firearms. We did not have firearms, licensed firearms and the people who were attacking the community had such arms.
ADV DE JAGER: Another thing. You were asked whether you needed exactly R10 000 to buy these weapons and you said "yes, that was for eight AK47s", and how many handgrenades?
MR MOELE: I am not sure, but there could have been six. I am just estimating. I was more interested on the AK47s.
ADV DE JAGER: So were those the weapons that would have been bought with the R10 000?
MR MOELE: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: There weren't any other guns and pistols or that kind of thing?
MR MOELE: I only knew of the AK47s and the grenades. We would have bought it from anybody who was selling it.
ADV DE JAGER: Because in your application, you've signed a document and in paragraph 3 you say
"The money would have been used to buy sub-machine guns, pistols and revolvers, to buy different calibres of ammunition and also to buy food and pay transportation of SDU members."
So that was not only for the weapons that you've told us about now.
MR MOELE: An AK47 is a sub-machine gun. If the money had exceeded the ...(end of tape 4A)
EVIDENCE ON SIDE B OF TAPE 4 DOES NOT SEEM TO FLOW FROM ADV DE JAGER'S QUESTIONING
CHAIRPERSON: In any event, the figure you got from Mametse? Mametse gave you that figure.
MR MOELE: Mametse told us that the amount needed for the guns was R10 000.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Have you got any re-examination, Mr Smit?
MR SMIT: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SMIT
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Moele, you're excused. We assume that is your case in respect of this incident.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR SMIT: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi, have you got any witnesses?
MS VILAKAZI: Thank you, Mr Chair. I have Mr van der Walt, who is a victim. May I put it on record that Mr van der Walt is not opposed to the application, but e has suffered some emotional ...(indistinct) as a result of the attack and he wants to take the Committee through the experience that he went through. As I call Mr van der Walt, may I get directions from yourself, Mr Chairman, as to whether it will be necessary to lead Mr van der Walt with regard to the robbery itself.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if he's not opposing and he really just wants to tell us how he feels about it, perhaps you could only ...(indistinct) necessary.
MS VILAKAZI: As it pleases you.
CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr van der Walt available? In what language will he testify?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Afrikaans.
VOORSITTER: Wil u Afrikaans praat?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Ja.
VOORSITTER: Goed.
GERT ABRAHAM VAN DER WALT: (sweer onder eed)
CHAIRPERSON: Miss Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: As Your Worship pleases. I will lead him in English.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr van der Walt, you were employed by Transvaal Galvanising in 1993, is that correct?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Dis korrek.
MS VILAKAZI: What was your position?
MR VAN DER WALT: A security officer.
MS VILAKAZI: You were there when the armed robbery took place, is that correct?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Dis korrek.
MS VILAKAZI: Were you armed at that particular time?
MR VAN DER WALT: Yes, it was quarter past three in the afternoon.
MS VILAKAZI: Did you have any weapons with you?
MR VAN DER WALT: No.
MS VILAKAZI: Are you able to identify the people who took part in the robbery?
MR VAN DER WALT: At this stage not because the problem is it was such a long time back and it was so fast, I cannot remember the people.
MS VILAKAZI: But can you remember what you went through?
MR VAN DER WALT: Yes. That was - I take the ...(indistinct) in connection with the money and the completely was a robber story that will happen.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MNR VAN DER WALT: Edelagbare, dit het gebeur omtrent kwart oor drie die middag.
VOORSITTER: Ja.
MNR VAN DER WALT: En ons was van plan om die salarisse op te maak vir die werkers, en op die kop twintig oor vier toe laat hulle my weet van die hek af, ek moet opkom kantoor toe, ek moet die geld kom vat.
Op pad na die kantoor toe het Antonie vir my gesê hy kannie saam met my beweeg, hy het iemand in die galvanising departement daarso om wys te maak op die masjiene en ek moet alleen gaan kantoor toe.
Toe beweeg ek alleen kantoor toe en ek het in die kantoor gekom en Georgio was daar gewees, dit was my assistent voorman, en hy het vir my gesê "Gerrie, vat die kas", maar dit was nie 'n kas, 'n staal kas nie, dit was 'n boks. Dit lyk amper soos 'n skoene boks, maar dit was sommer so 'n "plain" boks. En ons het hom geneem en ek het met hom uitgestap en ek was - die omgewing van die kantoor af na die galvanising plek to is 400m. Die helfte van die omgewing toe kom Antonie terug na my toe, toe sê hy vir my "Gerrie, hoe lyk dit, is jy reg?" Toe sê ek "Nee, ek is "alright" moenie "worry" nie, ek gaan op pad na die uitbetaal kantoor toe. Nou die uitbetaal kantoor is van my afdeling waar ek nou Antonie gelos het, tot daar, is 'n ander 200m verder.
Ek het beweeg op na die galvanising plek toe. Terwyl ek op gebeweeg het, het ek met die mense gepraat wat aan die ysters werk, wat hulle gebegin "paint" het en so aan. Toe sê hulle vir my "Wanneer is die betaal punt uit?" Toe sê ek "Nee, julle moet net so 'n bietjie wag, ons gaan eers die geld in volgorde sit soos hulle vanne is. Dit was in so 'n - so het dit gebeur en ek het opgestap na die galvanising plek toe. By die oonde, daar was 'n pot, 'n bak, vol "acid" water waar ons die staal laat insak om hom te laat galvanising voor hy deur die oonde gaan.
Toe ek by die pot kom toe vind ek uit hier is verkeerde mense binne in die gebou. En hulle het oor die muur gespring in die agterkant van die bebou, by die kantoor waar ons ons lêers en goed hou en ook die teekamers van die personeel. En hulle't opgehardloop, een het na my kant toe, direk in my gesig in gehardloop en hy't die vuurwapen teen my kop gedruk. Ek het vir hom gesê "Nou wat is jou plan nou, wil jy - jy speel mos nou, daai ding is mos 'n speelding", en ek het 'n vermoede gehad dis een van die werkers, en ek sê vir hom "Maar jy's mal man, wat wil jy nou maak?", en hy skree of my "Gee die geld of ek skiet jou dood". Ek sê toe vir hom "Maar wel, "alright", as jy daar ...(onduidelike)" en op daardie oomblik toe vind ek uit dat dit nie 'n speelding is nie en ek struikel, ek mirafeer myself teen die muur en teen die galvanising pot om my balans te hou, want die een stamp my kort kort terug en dan wil hy die boks gryp, maar ek hou die boks vas. En toe ek nou mooi op my voete kom toe kom Georgio so aangeloop en hy kyk toe so en hy sê vir my "Gerrie, gou die geld, julle gaan jou doodskiet". En met die slag toe ek die geld vir die sekere persoon gooi wat met my baklei, toe val die geld en met die geld toe hy val toe's daar 'n tweede persoon en hy gryp die boks to en hy hardloop toe uit.
Nou aan die buitekant was daar 'n ander een wat vir my gewag het, wat ingewag het vir die sekere persoon wat die geld gegryp het en hulle het dit onder mekaar so uitge"pass". En toe hulle by die tweede voertuig kom - ek het afmerkings gemaak hier op 'n papier, hoe dit gebeur het, toe gaan die skoot af en die derde persoon kom toe aangehardloop na hulle toe en ek vind toe uit, maar dis nie net drie nie, hulle is vier en die een hardloop toe vooruit na die hek se kant toe en die ander drie volg hulle toe.
Toe hulle by die hek uithardloop toe skree ek vir Georgio "Bel die SAP, hulle het ons beroof." Met die slag toe ek skree SAP, toe trek hulle twee skote af. Die een skoot trek teen die bakkie, die voertuig vas, wat teen - in die oop perseel staan, slat dit hierbo teen die "bonnet" vas en die ander een trek in die lug in. En met die slag toe dit nou afgegaan, toe - al die werkers hardloop toe weg en ek staan toe alleen.
En Georgio kom toe na my toe gehardloop en hy sê "Wat is die polisie se telefoon nommer?" Ek sê vir hom "Die "Flying Squad", 10111, skakel hulle". Maar met die oomblik toe ons hulle skakel toe is die speurders in die omgewing van die fabriek omgewing, toe het hulle al inligting gekry van sekere mense wat gaan glo fabrieke beroof. Toe sê ek vir hom - toe hulle aangejaag kom na ons toe toe sê ek "Maar hoor hierso, hulle't ons beroof", maar met die slag toe kom Jenaro, ons ander bestuurder van Emag(?), kom hy ook toe ingery met sy Mercedes Benz. Ek sê toe vir hom "Jenaro, he robbed us". En Antonie kom na Jenaro toe en hulle praat in Italiaanse taal en hulle praat met mekaar en hulle verduidelik aan mekaar. En toe kom die speurders ook en hulle vra toe wat het gebeur en hulle sê toe, ons verduidelik to aan hulle. En hulle sê nee, hulle't die mense gesien ophardloop in die pad in.
En toe is hulle agter hulle aan en hulle het die mense gearresteer. Party van hulle het oor die "fence" geklim by Tiemie(?) Firma ...(onduidelik), die ander klomp het hulle gekry in 'n sloot nie ver daarvandaan. In 'n "sewerage plant" het hulle die geld ingedruk. En ons het begin te soek en te soek maar ons kon niks kry nie. En later van tyd toe kom die speurders terug toe sê hulle "Kom kyk hier waar is die geld".
Toe't ek en Jenaro gery en ons het die geld gaan haal uit to "sewerage plant" uit.
VOORSITTER: Het julle toe al die geld teruggekry?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Ons het - u Edelagbare, ja ons het teruggekry maar dit was baie beskadig, dit is heeltemal onbruikbaar.
VOORSITTER: U was nie beseer in die voorval nie?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Edelagbare nee, ek sal jou sê die Here was goed vir my gewees, hy't my bespaar in daardie oomblik toe dit gebeur het.
VOORSITTER: Goed. Goed, baie dankie.
Is there anything else, Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: Yes, Chairperson.
Mr van der Walt, in my consultation with you in the morning you told me about treatment that you had to undergo afterwards.
MNR VAN DER WALT: Ja.
MS VILAKAZI: Can you take the Committee through that.
MNR VAN DER WALT: Ag dit is min, dis ...(tussenbeide)
ADV DE JAGER: Het jy daarna sielkundige behandeling gekry?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Edelagbare, ja, ek het - die aand laat, jy weet omtrent so elfuur/twaalfuur, toe het dit terug in my geheue begin speel en ek het begin ruk en pluk jy weet, soos bewe of die bed en ek het begin baklei met die kussing en toe sê my vrou vir my "Jong, jy kannie so aangaan nie, ek moet jou na die dokter toe neem". En my broer - nie my broer nie, my swaar het gekom ...(tussenbeide)
ADV DE JAGER: Nee, maar die punt is jy het toe op die ou end na 'n dokter toe gegaan en hy het kalmeermiddels en so vir u gegee?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Dis reg ja, Edelagbare.
VOORSITTER: En u het heeltemal herstel van die voorval af?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Ja, dit het my - ek meen, hoe sê, ek is - deur die Here se genade het ek dan heeltemal herstel.
VOORSITTER: Ja, goed.
ADV BOSMAN: En u werk nog vir dieselfde maatskappy?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Agbare, nee, nee. Ek het toe twee jaar daarna het ek toe bedank.
ADV BOSMAN: Maar dis nie nou oor die voorval nie?
MNR VAN DER WALT: Nee, nee, nee, dit is my eie besluite want ek het gedink ek moet liewerste weggaan daar.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
MR SMIT: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SMIT
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
VOORSITTER: Thank you.
Mnr van der Walt, baie dankie, us is verskoon.
MNR VAN DER WALT: Baie dankie, Edelagbare.
GETUIE VERSKOON
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi, is that all?
MS VILAKAZI: That will be all.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Ms Lockhat, I assume you don't have any evidence.
MS LOCKHAT: No. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us an indication, are both of you involved in the next incident as well?
MS VILAKAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, in that even then I think we're going to adjourn at this stage and we will carry on with the next incident and then you can address us at the end of all that, on both the matters.
MR SMIT: Both the matters. As it pleases.
MS VILAKAZI: As it pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: So we'll adjourn at this stage and we'll reconvene here tomorrow morning at nine thirty.
MS LOCKHAT: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
