Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: I refer to amnesty reference AM3887/96. Mr Geldenhuys, do you want to put yourself on record on behalf of the applicant?

MR GELDENHUYS: Advocate Geldenhuys practising at the Johannesburg Bar. I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Geldenhuys. Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lynn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, just for the record there are no victims. We've notified with the general newspaper adverts in relation to this incident and no one has come forward today, Chairperson and so for the record there is no legal representative either for any persons. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes are you happy that we've taken all reasonable steps to notify the interested parties and that under circumstances the matter can proceed?

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, we have also tried to contact the IFP in that area and to date they haven't provided us with any victims either, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat, that is noted and in the circumstances we will proceed to hear the application. Mr Geldenhuys, is there anything that you want to put on record or can we proceed to hear the testimony of your client?

MR GELDENHUYS: We can proceed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Dlamini, can you hear the translation on the headphones?

VELAPHI MAVELA LOT DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Geldenhuys?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairperson, I've handed in an affidavit which is before you in the bundle and I'm going to proof the affidavit first of all.

Mr Dlamini, do you recognise this document that I've got here before you?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR GELDENHUYS: Did you sign this document?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I did.

MR GELDENHUYS: When did you sign this document?

MR DLAMINI: On the 2nd September 1999.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you know about the contents of this affidavit?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: Did you consider that to be binding on your conscience?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: I'm going to refer you to paragraph 4, 4.1.1.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes just for the record, Mr Geldenhuys, the affidavit forms part of the bundle of documents before us and it appears on pages 8 to 21?

MR GELDENHUYS: That is correct, Chairperson. Paragraph 4.1.1, that is where you explained about the operations, Mr Dlamini, that you took a part in?

MR DLAMINI: That is so.

MR GELDENHUYS: In paragraph 4.1.1 you refer to the first operation as an attack on one person named Jawa's house. Can you just elaborate to the Committee during the first operation?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Geldenhuys, perhaps for the benefit for the people in the audience you could just first proof Mr Dlamini's political affiliations and the capacity in which he was part of these acts?

MR GELDENHUYS: As the Committee pleases, I will then just give the general background.

Mr Dlamini, were you ever part of any political movement?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: And what political movement were you part of?

MR DLAMINI: When I was still young I joined the Azanian Student Movement. From there on I joined COSAS. After a while in 1985 I joined Umkhonto we Sizwe, the military wing of the ANC.

MR GELDENHUYS: Were you ever a member of MK?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: When did you become a member of Umkhonto we Sizwe?

MR DLAMINI: I joined the MK in 1985.

MR GELDENHUYS: Why did you join MK?

MR DLAMINI: As a black South African it was a way of life at the time. Personally I felt that we should attempt to fight the previous government and I joined an organisation that was doing exactly that at the time.

MR GELDENHUYS: What exactly did this organisation intend, what was their objective?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, Mr Geldenhuys, I think we've had ample evidence about that and we're quite aware of the political objectives of the MK's, I don't think you need to go into detail, you've already mentioned now that being a member and that he associated himself with the struggle, I think everybody would understand that.

MR GELDENHUYS: Advocate Bosman, may I then continue?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, yes certainly.

MR GELDENHUYS: Okay. The operations then, it is true that you were involved in violent operations, isn't it?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: And can you tell us about these operations, starting with the operation on one Jawa's house?

MR DLAMINI: This operation was carried by myself. Bhekinyesa, Madota and Madesi, there were four of us. We attacked Jawa's house because he was a councillor and at that time these were regarded as enemies because they cooperated with the then government. Then we had to attack his house because even the police who stayed at Jawa's house used to shoot at school children. Madesi was the commander of our unit and he decided that we should attack Jawa's house. We did this using hand grenades. We attacked the house from the front and from the back. I myself did carry a hand grenade and a firearm and these were thrown into the house. I think there were two hand grenades which were thrown into that house. I am not sure just what damaged was incurred because after the attack we fled.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether anybody was killed?

MR DLAMINI: No, I do not have knowledge thereof.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mr Geldenhuys, did you place a date around about this incident?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, do you know more or less when this first operation took place? Which year?

MR DLAMINI: If I'm not mistaken it should be 1986.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you said that this operation was politically motivated and you said that was because of the municipal police and the councillors' association with the then government, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: For the normal person on the street, would he be able to see this attack of yours as a political attack?

MR DLAMINI: That is so.

MR GELDENHUYS: Why do you say that?

MR DLAMINI: It is because at that time councillors served the then government. I had nothing to gain from attacking Mr Jawa. The only thing that could be gained was for the struggle, that is to eliminate Mr Jawa.

MR GELDENHUYS: During which time, what time at night did you attack these premises?

MR DLAMINI: Between 8 and 9 in the evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Whereabout did this take place, what was the area?

MR DLAMINI: Killarney in Orlando West.

ADV BOSMAN: I have difficulty with my sound system, I won't switch off. I've tried the ...(indistinct)

MR GELDENHUYS: I'm going to refer you to paragraph 4.2.1 and the heading there is "Subsequent Operations", that is operations after the attack on Jawa's house. You refer in paragraph 4.2.1 to a certain female councillor by the name of Madipedi and she was identified by a person named Bheki Myesa as someone who caused a nuisance. Can you elaborate on this?

MR DLAMINI: She was a councillor in Meadowlands. She was part of the councillors who took part in exploiting the people and they would harass school children. It was then decided at the time that she should be attacked so that her attacks and what she was doing to the people would be weakened.

MR GELDENHUYS: She was a councillor and in your previous testimony, in evidence you said that councillors were seen as enemies, as such. Why did you say that?

MR DLAMINI: They did no co-exist well with the communities in which they lived. That is why they were always under police protection because they were seen to be the peoples' objectives. I would say they served as an extension of apartheid.

MR GELDENHUYS: Why do you say they were seen as an extension of apartheid.

MR DLAMINI: Because when the boers could not exploit us themselves, they would use other black people to do so.

MR GELDENHUYS: Can you describe the attack?

ADV DE JAGER: I think he described it in paragraph 4.2.3, but also there's no time mentioned or period mentioned?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, this attack on Madipedi's house, can you estimate when this attack occurred and if you can't estimate can you tell the Committee why you cannot estimate? Give a rough estimation of when this happened?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was 1986 or 1987. It was most attacks on councillors happened during 1986 and 1987. I cannot really specify a date but I can explain how the attack took place.

ADV DE JAGER: I see that you mention that some casualties occurred, could you give us more information about that?

MR DLAMINI: We used to mix with different people from other organisations, liberation organisations and they would discuss the attacks subsequent to that and therefore they would tell us that some people did get injured and maybe the police came and helped in ferrying the injured to the hospital and think in this attack it was mostly the police who were injured.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.3.1 mentions the attack on a female councillor's house in Orlando, Orlando West area and you say the attack was unsuccessful. Do you remember this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: What happened there, briefly?

MR DLAMINI: There were a lot of police in the area therefore we could not carry out the attack successfully and we were told that we should just throw a few hand grenades and flee just to harass that councillor so that she gets the message that she is not wanted but we carried the attack hastily and had to retreat quickly. I do not know whether that was the reason why she resigned because she did so at a subsequent stage.

MR GELDENHUYS: Again can you give a rough estimate, you said most of the attacks on community leaders or councillors were during the period 1986 to 1987. Can you maybe give us a more specific date or are you happy with the time 1986 to 1987 with this attack mentioned in 4.3.1?

MR DLAMINI: It is around there '86/'87, I can perhaps say it could be 1987 but it's not something I that I will say with total ...(indistinct)

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.4.5 ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Geldenhuys, I see he's referring to Mr Bheki ...(intervention)

MR GELDENHUYS: Miesa.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, who actually acted as commander of this small unit of yours?

MR DLAMINI: It Modisa Matabani.

ADV DE JAGER: And did he give the instructions for all the operations?

MR DLAMINI: He would do so in most cases but sometimes we would also by ourselves identify a troublesome councillor and if we tell him about that person he would authorise that we could attack. There was sometimes it would be just one person amongst us who is aware of such a councillor therefore we would tell him about that person.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.4.1 you mention an attack on a women's hostel. Yourself, Tumi Padi, Mvesi Matapadi, Bheki Miesa, knew about the fact that the municipal police were guarding a hostel. Can you tell us a little more about this attack?

MR DLAMINI: The police usually guarded that place and during those times they would harass the township residents, for instance assaulting school children at random. Therefore the police were regarded as a problem to the community and we did not know what's the reason for them guarding that hostel. At that time Modise decided that we should attack those policemen to send a message to them that they are not wanted in that community. So we went along and attacked. On that specific day there were only two policemen but the objective was that we were going to attack their truck but unfortunately on that day there was just two of them guarding the hostel so we attacked and threw hand grenades. I think it was just one hand grenade that was thrown at them and a couple of shots were fired from a small firearm.

MR GELDENHUYS: Again a rough estimate as to the time span when that attack occurred?

MR DLAMINI: We would normally attack around 7 or 8 in the evening because if we attacked around those times it would be easy to mix with the crowds and the streets.

MR GELDENHUYS: And in which year was that?

MR DLAMINI: 1987.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.5.1

"Butili was the name of one more councillor whose house suffered one of our attacks."

Do you remember this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR GELDENHUYS: What happened there?

MR DLAMINI: Butili was a councillor in Orlando East. We attacked his house which was guarded by the police. There were three of us, myself, Bheki and Indumi. We threw hand grenades into the premises because his house was guarded in such a manner that we could not see inside therefore we only threw hand grenades and whilst we were waiting to see if the police who were guarding the house would come out or not, the police approached from the streets so we had to flee.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you throw these hand grenades into the house?

MR DLAMINI: The house had tall walls around and there was a smaller room outside on the premises where the police used to be when they guarded the house so that is where we threw the hand grenades.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you didn't throw it through the window into the house or through an open door or so, into the councillor's house?

MR DLAMINI: We threw one grenade at the police and another one was thrown either on the roof or at the window but I cannot remember because as we were still standing there, the police approached us and we had to flee quickly.

ADV BOSMAN: But what was your intention, Mr Dlamini, did you intend attacking the police or did you intend attacking the councillor or did you intend attacking the councillor and the police?

MR DLAMINI: It was the councillor and the police because if you are attacking a councillor, the police will also retaliate because they were there to protect that councillor.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.6.1 you refer to operations between 1990 and 1993 and you start that you were involved in a Coin Security vehicle, a truck heist, that you robbed the Coin Security vehicle. Can you explain how it became that you were involved in this robbery?

MR DLAMINI: Around this time, it was either before or just after the unbanning of the ANC but I had just been released from prison and I had a new commander, Kevin Mosebedi. We were involved in many operations for instance training people and sometimes I would transport weapons to different areas and I would be involved in protecting other of our members so we used to do a lot of travelling and we were running short of money. Even Kevin himself could not secure enough money. Our leaders used to question us that we complain for the lack of cash but the present government or the previous government used to use public funds for their own purposes. Then he came up with an idea of organising a unit that would try to fund raise but initially we could not just use MK members for that unit therefore the easier option would be to have one MK member to be involved. That is how it happened that I was involved in that operation to rob the Coin Security vehicle.

MR GELDENHUYS: During this operation, did anyone get hurt?

MR DLAMINI: I was shot at.

MR GELDENHUYS: And did you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you come back? The leader was, who instructed you, was Kevin? What was his surname?

MR DLAMINI: Kevin Mosebedi.

ADV DE JAGER: What was his position in the MK?

MR DLAMINI: He was my MK commander. When I was released from prison I joined his unit.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know that or do you know that it wasn't ANC policy to rob banks and people?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that was the policy.

ADV DE JAGER: So why did you act against the policy?

MR DLAMINI: Kevin was my commander and the situation on the ground necessitated that we were in need of resources and it was a pre-negotiation process and most people did not want to be involved in actions that would compromise the movement therefore we as a unit had to take the initiative for the survival of our own unit and because of the situation on the ground that we had to find different safe houses so that our positions are not exposed. In any case no one amongst us had stable employment, no one was employed, therefore the plan that was devised was that we should involve ourselves in robberies.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you report to your political leaders about this?

MR DLAMINI: I personally did not discuss it with political leaders, I am not sure if Kevin did.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand what you were saying earlier when you explained that your leaders were saying that you complained about money, that the previous regime did something. Just re-explain that to me?

MR DLAMINI: I was trying to explain that when we discussed the issue of fund-raising, Kevin informed us that the political leaders are saying that we are always complaining about shortage of funds but MK people are the ones who are armed but ordinary criminals who do this for their own personal gain managed to rob such vehicles successfully but we who need the funds for the struggle do not do anything about it.

CHAIRPERSON: So was the attitude of those leaders that you are the cause of your own situation because you don't do anything about getting money, instead you just complained?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand that, did you understand that to mean that the leaders were saying that instead of complaining you must find a way to get money yourself?

MR DLAMINI: From the discussions that we had in our unit it became obvious that we should take our own initiative to raise funds and sometimes when we did manage to raise funds this money would be used by the unit, for instance to transport weapons because we used to link with other units, some in Natal, so we had to have money for transport to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Geldenhuys?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, you also said that the government took care of their own people and their own cause and that you saw this as an opportunity for you to take care of your own cause?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: And during this robbery did you in fact take any money from this robbery to your commander or what happened?

MR DLAMINI: We were unsuccessful in obtaining any money because there was an exchange of fire and our vehicle broke down therefore we had to flee and I was also injured and we were arrested therefore we did not manage to get any money from this operation.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that just prior to this operation you were released from prison. Was that in connection with a political offence as well?

MR DLAMINI: That is so.

ADV BOSMAN: What did this entail?

MR DLAMINI: It was terrorism and leaving the country illegally as well as sedition.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR GELDENHUYS: Except for yourself, did any one else get injured or was injured in this robbery?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know.

MR GELDENHUYS: And is it correct that this robbery case is still proceeding in the regional court today?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And were any of the people who accompanied you arrested?

MR DLAMINI: That is so.

ADV DE JAGER: They were not members of MK?

MR DLAMINI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they aware of the purpose of the robbery, that money would not go to them but to MK?

MR DLAMINI: It's not that they were not going to receive any money but we had agreed that we as an MK unit would supply firearms as well one member to cooperate and if the robbery had been successful, we would receive fifty percent of the proceeds. They would keep the rest.

ADV DE JAGER: And what would you keep, yourself?

MR DLAMINI: I was not allowed to keep money that was intended for the unit for myself, it was not policy to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: And your co-accused, none of them applied for amnesty or did they?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me, Mr Dlamini, have you seen the charge sheet relating to this matter which will now be heard in the regional court?

MR DLAMINI: My advocate did show me.

ADV BOSMAN: The reason why I'm asking this question is it may shed some light as to whether anybody was injured or killed in this robbery. Perhaps Mr Geldenhuys you can enlighten us on that?

MR GELDENHUYS: Yes in fact I am in a position to shed some light on this, I am representing Mr Dlamini in this case as well. According to the State docket which I have got in my possession, copies of, no one was injured in this attack, the only person who was injured was Mr Dlamini who was shot in the foot. The case is proceeding in the regional court in court number 15. The next trial dates is 24 and 25 January, the year 2000. The State's case is not closed as yet and some more evidence must be proven by the State. The exhibits that was found on the scene was inter alia one AK, two Stetchken machine pistols, as Mr Dlamini said he supplied in his affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please carry on?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, you said when a question asked by a member of the Panel, the Committee, that the top ANC structure was not aware of these robberies going on and they didn't approve it, can you remember that?

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think he actually said that, he conceded that it was the policy of the ANC.

MR GELDENHUYS: And if I can just ask maybe was it the policy that they were not allowing the members on the ground to in fact be part of the robberies? I didn't hear that part clearly?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you enquiring, Mr Geldenhuys?

MR GELDENHUYS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well the position seems to be that in terms of ANC submissions to the TRC it wasn't their policy to rob banks or whatever. Whatever that is worth.

MR GELDENHUYS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, apparently there is someone that says the top ANC structure didn't approve robberies but according to your testimony the members from the ground thought that they should take part in robberies to be involved in this political struggle and that the robberies was a cause or part of a cause for the political struggle?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: So was there in fact a conflict between top ANC policy and members on the ground and the commander's policy?

MR DLAMINI: There is nothing mentioned, there is no policy regarding robbery in the ANC but with regards to the needs of the units on the ground you would try to raise funds in any way. Even then the leaders would not expressly give you authority to involve yourself in robberies but would only say that whatever you do you should not compromise the movement to such an extent that if you got involved you would not involve the entire unit so that if anything happens you do not compromise the entire unit.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.7.1, this is now a subsequent operation, you said that you committed murder when you shot and killed an IFP leader in the Msimshlope Township, he was shot in the head and chest during the fighting between Msimshlope residents and IFP hostel dwellers in Harley Street Orlando West. Do you remember this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR GELDENHUYS: When more or less did this incident take place?

MR DLAMINI: The violence started in 1991 up to 1993.

MR GELDENHUYS: Can you just elaborate on this incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do we have an indication as to when this happened about? Are you saying it's between 1991 and 1993 that this incident happened?

MR DLAMINI: Between 1991 and 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Geldenhuys.

MR GELDENHUYS: You said the surrounding circumstances were that there was a lot of conflict between the ANC and IFP. What actually happened during this time?

MR DLAMINI: It was around the time when the Boipatong incident occurred. There was rife violence in the Vaal Triangle area, that was the violence between hostel dwellers who were mainly IFP people and the township residents who were ANC members. In Msimshlope the residents were mainly ANC and the hostel dwellers were mainly IFP members therefore the violence at the time was rife and we as MK members were called upon to defend the community at all costs because even the people themselves did know who were the members of MK and therefore we had responsibility to protect them because they were being attacked for their ANC membership, attacked by IFP people from the hostel.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.8.1 ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Geldenhuys, I know it's difficult but one should try and get some details so that - we can't give general amnesty for attacks on IFP members for instance but if we could restrict it to a period or a place at least we could identify the incidents so that we give sufficient particulars about it. I see you've described in general the area but if you could try and get dates or more specific locations?

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, paragraph 4.7.1, this killing of the IFP leader, Msimshlope Township, you said that was in Harley Street, Orlando West. Do you know more or less which year that was? You said between 1991 and 1992, do you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: I have difficulties because the violence went on for a long period but with regard to this incident it happened either in 1991 or 1992. At that time there was fighting going on and I did not know or foresee that I would have to appear before such a commission in the future. Therefore I did not really keep these dates in mind.

MR GELDENHUYS: At some stage ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, I'm sorry I must come in here. You speak of an IFP leader, why do you say the person unknown to you was a leader of the IFP, how did you identify him as a leader?

MR DLAMINI: The IFP would normally attend rallies and they would pass through that township, the Msimshlope area. This person was the one who was always in front and he was the one who instructed the rest of the group when for instance they insulted us and when there was an attack launched, on enquiring from the residents, you would find that he's the one person who came prior to the attack to perhaps conduct surveillance. That is how we came to the assumption that he must be the leader because at rallies or on attacks he is the one person who was always in front. That is how we came to the assumption that he must be the leader.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR GELDENHUYS: And in paragraph 4.7.1 you also said something about the training of IFP members in the Caprivi area of South West Africa. How did you become to know about this?

MR DLAMINI: As a trained MK member I do have a good knowledge of firearms. The IFP would launch attacks on the township and there were rumours circulating that these people came from Kwamadala Hostel and there were some who were trained from the Caprivi and even during the attacks the sound that you would hear would be the sound of machine guns and an ordinary person who has not received training would not be able to use such military weapons.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.8.1, you say in this paragraph that Meadowlands was attacked by IFP members, backed by White police and you fought back and you shot randomly into the mass of IFP supporters. You say you do not know how many people died as a result of the shots fired by you. Do you remember this incident where IFP members attacked residents of Meadowlands and where they were in fact backed by White police?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR GELDENHUYS: What happened there?

MR DLAMINI: The residents of Meadowlands, Zone 1, would normally call Msimshlope if there was an attack launched because if the attackers came they would attack the houses that are immediately next to the hostel. On this day they launched an attack and the people had to flee from Zone 1. We entered Zone 1 and tried to block the IFP on their way and as we approached we saw that there were a lot of them and there were houses that were already on fire and we started firing and as they were fleeing we realised that there were SACP members behind them and as we realised that the police were also present we tried to retreat but there were many IFP people who were injured in that attack because we discovered from the newspaper reports on the following day that a lot of IFP people had been killed and injured. We discovered from the newspaper reports on the following day that a lot of IFP had been killed and injured.

MR GELDENHUYS: When more or less did this attack take place?

MR DLAMINI: Either 1991 or 1992. As I mentioned before I have difficulty in recalling the dates because I did not foresee the possibility of appearing before this Commission. The TRC investigator did try to get hold of newspaper clippings to confirm the incident.

MR GELDENHUYS: And did you see the bundle that is accompanying this investigation?

MR DLAMINI: Which bundle are you referring to?

MR GELDENHUYS: The bundle accompanying this investigation into your matter which consists of some newspaper clippings as well?

MS LOCKHAT: Page 116 and 117.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that relate to this incident?

MS LOCKHAT: It just gives a broad, it's just says April 1991 to May 1992 that 106 people lost their lives in Meadowlands in attacks there, it just gives a broad overview that it did happen between that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Report about the violence, okay. Yes Mr Geldenhuys, I don't think there's dispute about that.

MR GELDENHUYS: Now paragraph 4.9.1 you said in your statement that there was nothing but a full scaled war going on and the newspaper clipping also makes mention of something like that and we are aware of the conditions and the circumstances in the townships and then you continue

"I remember a day when I shot an IFP supporter when he came out of an IFP controlled hostel near the Soweto highway."

Do you recall this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you say this was in fact an IFP controlled hostel. How did you know that?

MR DLAMINI: You would not even be able to set foot in that hostel if you were from the township because they knew that township resident's were ANC members and in the township people who resided at the hostel were regarded as IFP members because even on this particular day there had been an attack in the morning from the hostel dwellers and we had managed to fight back and they retreated back to the hostel. A certain lady sustained injuries during that day. After that attack there was quietness and then there were a lot of soldiers who came to patrol around the area and as the day progressed we saw this one person coming out of the hostel and he was sort of going around the township and we crept up behind him and we captured him. After capturing him we realised that this must be an IFP member because he was very arrogant. We had intended to take him back to the township to interrogate him fully but then the SADF approached and then I shot at him and we fled.

MR GELDENHUYS: You said in paragraph 4.9.1 you shot an IFP supporter and you got shot in the chest and you are not sure if he survived the incident or not?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: And again more or less you say between 1991 and 1992 in that time span concerning this incident?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.10.1, that is now a different incident, you also remember an incident when you attacked a mob of IFP members with two hand grenades and pistols from which you fired a couple of shots. Can you tell the Committee more about this incident?

MR DLAMINI: It was on a Sunday. It's one of those incidents that would happen in the township and the police will do nothing. I think on that day people of Mabedla were attacked and the people from - there had been an attack around Marafi Hostel on the morning of that date. I think these people were from Marafi and they came to Msimshlope station and when they arrived we did not want them to pass through our township because if they do so they normally attack people in the township so we did not allow them to cross through the township. There were a lot of police in the area and they had to go beyond the borders of the township and we wanted them to use the freeway roads which was a bit further away from the township but the police insisted that these people should use that route that passes through the township. These people then used AK-47s to shoot at the township residents who were now looking at them. They shot at a young boy who died and a lot of people were injured. At that time we were not armed, we had to flee from them and then regroup and block them somewhere along the way and that is when these hand grenades were thrown at them. I myself had a pistol in my possession which is what I used to fire at them.

MR GELDENHUYS: Do you know if anyone was killed by you during this attack?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know but there were police and ambulances that arrived after the incident.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.11.1 you gave orders that someone should be shot, that was someone that was known to you. Can you remember this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I remember that clearly.

MR GELDENHUYS: What happened?

MR DLAMINI: At that time there were a lot of attacks on trains. We received an order to find out exactly what was going on with regards to these attacks. Our unit managed to get hold of some IFP people who had knowledge. It seemed as if there was an office in Jeppe Street whereby people would go and seek employment and they would be then hired to launch attacks on trains. I was sent to investigate this matter because I'm the one person who could speak Zulu clearly and after a while I was instructed that I should not go there any more because a certain neighbour had already informed those IFP people that I was not one of them, I was just an ANC member in fact who was spying on them and on discussing the matter with Kevin and Chris Hani I was told not to return to that place and when I enquired as to who had informed on me I was told that this person is my neighbour and this matter was discussed at a certain police station and this neighbour was now regarded as a danger. I also realised this neighbour was a danger because one day there was a Chevrolet, a brown Chevrolet that was used to keep me under surveillance and other IFP members were now aware of my movements. I was aware that I was now being kept under surveillance and I had to stop going home because I was putting my family in danger. We then decided, myself, Kevin and Chris Hani that we should eliminate this person because he had now become a danger to me. I am not sure whether he also realised that we were now looking for him because he fled but unfortunately I saw him coming out of his house one day and I showed one of our members that here was this person and one of our members then followed him and shot at him and as he was being shot he did not die instantly and he was captured by township residents but then there was a debate on whether he was an IFP member because he did not reside at the hostel and then the people decided to bring him back to our streets for us to say whether he was indeed an IFP member or not and when they brought this person his children came out of his house and they were begging for mercy and the people enquired why he was shot at by one of our unit members and when I realised that the situation had become tense I requested from the community that maybe we should just let go of him because he was a township resident and I said I do not know how he came about to be shot but at a later stage he threatened me that he would get me.

ADV DE JAGER: What was his name?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know his real name but I knew him as Biza Mjali.

ADV DE JAGER: And where did he stay, you knew him as Biza?

Only as Biza?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know whether that was his surname because the house at which he stays was Mjali household but he did not grow up there.

ADV DE JAGER: But could you give us an address there of the house? He was your neighbour?

MR DLAMINI: 10431A.

ADV DE JAGER: And the street?

MR DLAMINI: Hadebe Street, H-a-d-e-b-e. That is Msimshlope, Orlando West.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did this happen?

MR DLAMINI: Either in 1992 or 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes are you going to lead any further evidence on this incident or are you done with it?

MR GELDENHUYS: I'm done with it.

CHAIRPERSON: You've done with this incident?

MR GELDENHUYS: Yes Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well then we're going to adjourn and reconvene at 11.30.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Have you lost your client or what?

MR GELDENHUYS: No actually Mr Chairperson, he went to the toilet, he'll be back in a second.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Geldenhuys, if you could just have a look at the various other aspects and could you perhaps gives dates and localities if he cannot give any names then we could perhaps get a bit further?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes in other words just the additional information.

MR GELDENHUYS: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what would be the following incident? Paragraph 4.12.1?

MR GELDENHUYS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Dlamini, you are reminded that you are still under oath, do you understand?

VELAPHI MAVELA LOT DLAMINI: (s.u.o.) Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Geldenhuys?

MR GELDENHUYS: (continues) 4.12.1, you said it was about 4 a.m. one morning, you attacked the guards at the guarded main gate at the Msimshlope Hostel. This incident can you remember more or less the time span?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: When was that?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was in 1992.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you said Msimshlope Hostel, was this the IFP controlled hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: Was there only one hostel in Msimshlope?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.13.1, you state in your affidavit that you made an attack in the early hours of the morning when there would have been a funeral of an IFP member. This was a pre-emptive attack. Can you remember this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

MR GELDENHUYS: This attack, when more or less in 1992/'93 when was this attack carried out?

MR DLAMINI: This happened in the morning at about four exactly. There was going to be a funeral of the IFP member who had died in the township, was shot during the violence amongst the residents and the members in the hostel. Now it was common practise that each time prior to the funeral people will go out and attack in the early hours of the morning. It was common practise as I already made mention of the fact, they will go out in the township and shoot randomly and the police would come and just right at the time when we were supposed to defend ourselves and maybe shoot back and they would stop us and they would proceed to the graveyard and at that time you'll realise so many people have sustained injuries and it was then since decided that previously or the previous day or two, three days before they were attacking the township they'd use one massive gun. It was not a normal run or AK sound of a gun, one could tell it was a massive weapon and we then discovered we shall also gather or obtain also a massive weapon R7 for them to realise and discover the fact that they're not the only ones who can gain access such weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: We've read that but can you tell us why did you attack the shops and not the hostel itself? Why the shops, wouldn't members of the public visit the shops?

MR DLAMINI: Well as for these shops they were located right in the hostel. Now the people of IFP will go and get their transport around that area where the shop or shops were located. Now it was usual practise that they will be attacked around there, attacked around that place and locate them at that particular spot, not necessarily that the shops were serving the community as such but the IFP members as well. Now people coming from the township will not gain access or entry to such shops, they were not at all, because they also made mention of the fact that these were owned by Inkatha and they belonged to them solely.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlamini, I'm a little confused about the hostel. You speak of the Msimshlope's women's hostel in paragraph 4.4.1 and a little while ago you said there was only one hostel. Can you just clarify that for us, were there women in this hostel or was it a mixed hostel or was there a different men's hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Oh, I think that has been my mistake because there was one women hostel and one men hostel but then these are different, the one is located a distance from the other.

ADV BOSMAN: And this attack that you are giving evidence now was at the men's hostel then I take it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes at the men's hostel, the stronghold of IFP that is.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you said this attack, 4.13.1, this attack occurred 4 o'clock in the morning, did you say that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: And can you say when more or less, which year did this attack take place?

MR DLAMINI: 1992 I think. If not 1992 it will then be 1993 logically. I think my problem here, you see these things happened a long time ago and I've already said prior to the this that I did not know that one day I'll be called upon or I'll appear voluntarily to the Commission and relate the incidents as they happened.

ADV DE JAGER: We've heard that so you need not repeat it, we've heard that and we understand that you can't remember the exact dates.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.14.1, you said you were arrested during the struggle for possession of firearms and ammunition and you say you were arrested in Basita Street in Msimshlope township and taken to Meadowlands Police Station, charged with possession of firearms and ammunition. Can you remember when this arrest took place?

ADV DE JAGER: Can't we get perhaps a list of previous convictions or whatever he was convicted and could you give us a date or referral?

MR GELDENHUYS: This specific incident further on in the paragraph was made mention that this docket was lost so I believe that would not be reflected on SAP69.

This paragraph 4.14.1 basically gives background as to you normally carrying ammunition and a firearm during the course of the struggle. Was it in fact so?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: Good and nothing happened of this case since it was organised that the docket got lost?

MR DLAMINI: You see here what happened, I don't really know if that docket indeed got lost or was lost. You see that particular policeman felt it was unfair for us, the community, that were always arrested for possession of such weapons. Each time there will an attack the police will come confiscate our firearms or weapons and we'll be easy targets now and then what was placed before the court of law was that the docket has been misplaced and they dropped the case but I've been living under the light that it's been opened ever since, not that it has been attended to, the case that is at the court of law.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.15.1, it came to your knowledge that the IFP members at the Msimshlope township were about to launch an attack in the early hours of a Tuesday morning. You responded and you arrived at the main gate of the Msimshlope Hostel ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker is moving so fast we can't keep up with the pace.

MR GELDENHUYS: It came to your knowledge that the IFP members in the Msimshlope township were about to launch an attack in the early hours of a Tuesday morning. You responded and you arrived at the main gate of the Msimshlope Hostel where severe fighting broke out. You killed and injured a very large number of the fighting IFP members and you later received information that more than 20 people died and even more sustained injuries.

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: When exactly did this incident take place more or less if you can?

MR DLAMINI: 1992, yes this happened in 1992 I think. I see in the very morning that's when the IFP men attacked the township and we'd use radios and gather the fact that there's an attack. Two way radios were used to gather such information and they would shoot and I would join in the shooting so we got into this and it went for quite some time, shooting, but we were fortunate that not too many of us were injured but on the other opposing side there were quite many of them who sustained injuries and the ambulance had to come get and ferry them to hospital and we were being - the township will be benefited by police to secure the township people.

MR GELDENHUYS: And you say this was at the main gate at the Msimshlope Hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes this took place or happened at the main gate of Msimshlope Hostel. I think they had planned to attack from that area, attack the nearby houses and they were in a very massive group and they filled the streets. This is why it was easy for them to - it was easier for us to get a lot of them because they were quite many.

MR GELDENHUYS: The incident that occurred close to the Anchor High School and you described this incident in paragraph 4.16.1. Can you just briefly elaborate on the incident and tell us more or less when this incident took place?

MR DLAMINI: Well this one I think happened in 1993. Why I say so is there was a massive attack and shoot out between the residents and members of IFP that occupied the Msimshlope Hostel. It so happened that one of the people called Nyawane died, very notorious man who would attack the people of the community, part of the community, so this man was of danger to the community so that in this particular day in question there was going to be a funeral. In fact a funeral was at Msimshlope Hostel. Before the funeral procession there was an attack and Mr Gwala died in that attack. This Mr Gwala was an old respected man and got killed in this incident. They were shooting from the hostel, shooting at random at passersby at the hostel and we were coming from the funeral on this particular day in question and the funeral of the person whose funeral we had gone to was killed by the same people and we decided to have a plan or a problem that we always conduct our funerals earlier than them but then they were labouring obviously from the other side that ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes could you, we've got your affidavit and we know the background fully. Could you just tell us when it happened? This was near the Anchor School, what your role was in the actual fight that morning?

MR DLAMINI: I beg your pardon. I don't have the date as I've already explained. As to my role I was shooting using a Stenchem mission pistol, that is a kind of a weapon or some kind of firearm that I used on that particular day. The main role I played that I'm sure of is when Nyawane was killed because upon appearance, when he appeared, the people from the township pointed at him and said this is the one and I knew very well that he was a danger to the township and the hostel people as well were saying the same thing. Now I shot at him and he shot back at me. Unfortunately he died.

ADV BOSMAN: It would assist us if you could give us the name of the victim, Mr Dlamini. You did mention a name Nyawane, I've got it, can you just clarify that? Is that the victim who was killed by you?

MR DLAMINI: Well I don't know his real name but he was known as Nyawane. He was one leader, prominent leader of IFP. Each time when we were being attacked it would be ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to interrupt you but it's not really necessary to elaborate on that but it would assist us. If you were granted amnesty, we have to circumscribe the incident as best as possible from the evidence. So was this man Nyawane, that's all we need to know, that was my question?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: Mr Dlamini, how do you spell that name?

MR DLAMINI: Well let me write first. N-y-a-w-a-n-e.

MR GELDENHUYS: Paragraph 4.17.1, you make mention of at least two incidents where you were arrested for the possession of firearms and ammunition and you also mentioned the case numbers. Were you ever convicted and found guilty of those two cases?

MR DLAMINI: The one in Langlaagte I was not convicted for, I think that the case will still be conducted or heard. In the Sebokeng one I was never convicted and I think it's still coming but in 1993 there was a case that I was arrested for the murder and now I'm applying for amnesty for that because these three ones I usually would be found in possession of firearms because all the time I had firearms in my possession because I lived under the fear that I will be attacked anyhow, anywhere, any time so it was picked up that all the time that I always in my possession had a firearm simply because I lived under the fear.

MR GELDENHUYS: This murder case you are ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: I take it that's only in respect of being in possession of firearms before the 10th May 1994, not thereafter?

MR DLAMINI: 19?

ADV DE JAGER: Till up to the election?

MR DLAMINI: Even afterwards, after the election I was also found in possession of firearms.

ADV DE JAGER: Well that's the legal cut-off date so we'll have to deal with it.

MR GELDENHUYS: But Mr Dlamini, you were advised that you should make full disclosure and is this the reason why you also make mention of these two cases?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: To go back to the Orlando case number 49 of 8/93 which occurred during 1993 where you were found in possession of a firearm and one round of ammunition and in which case you were also charged and convicted for murder. What is your feelings about this case and how it relates to your application for amnesty.

MR DLAMINI: Well this is how it relates to my amnesty application. I have often times before found myself amongst the community members as a person who was helpful to them.

ADV DE JAGER: He's described that, he is not applying, he's given us the reason why he applied and he explained what his role was and what his motive was so we've got it in our affidavit, we need not repeat what's already stated in his affidavit.

MR GELDENHUYS: Then I'll move on to 4.17.2. You were found guilty, given seven years imprisonment, that is now common cause. It is in your affidavit, you made mention of the date in which the sentence was passed and you say that you expect to be released on parole only next year in 2000 and you say here in your affidavit that you're applying for amnesty in regards to the possession of the firearm and ammunition on that case? Do you confirm that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.17.3, you make mention of the continuous struggle resulting in you beginning to have psychological problems and is this still the case today? Would you appreciate it if someone could help you with treatment for all the violence and post-traumatic stress that you suffer from?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I would appreciate that.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.18.1 you make mention of your involvement in community affairs and you were continuously involved in sorting out community problems and that even led to using violence, physical violence, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: And that relates, goes on to 4.18.2 where you make mention of the incident of Bongani who killed his entire family and you say that ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Geldenhuys, we've got that, he's confirmed it, it won't make it stronger repeating it even if you give the evidence it won't make it stronger.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he applying for his role in the incident concerning Bongani 4.18.3, is that the next one?

MR GELDENHUYS: No indeed Mr Chairperson, 4.18.3 he says that he took a part in torturing Bongani but Bongani was shot and killed by someone else.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: So I just wanted to get maybe the date of this incident on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but is that part of his application or what?

MR GELDENHUYS: Not his initial application as far as I could establish Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But is he applying for amnesty in respect of that incident?

MR GELDENHUYS: Maybe I should put the question then to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but just see what remains, what else he's ...(intervention)

MR GELDENHUYS: Then it's only 4.19.1 this incident of Motiani. The problem is this affidavit is actually further particulars to the initial application form that was obtained from the applicant whilst he was in prison. I think a day or two before the close off, the cut-off date and that is where the confusion between for what he is actually applying with what he is not applying maybe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: I don't know what the Committee's attitude is but according to my instructions he is applying for this as mentioned in 4.19.1 as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about 4.18.3?

MR GELDENHUYS: That is my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: He is applying for that as well?

MR GELDENHUYS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: 4.18.3 and 4.19.1.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright if you just then ...(intervention)

MR GELDENHUYS: Just the dates then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.18.3, Bongani the incident, Mr Dlamini can you roughly indicate during what time this incident took place?

MR DLAMINI: This took place late 1992.

MR GELDENHUYS: 4.19.1, Motiani, the incident pertaining to Motiani, when more or less did this incident take place?

MR DLAMINI: This happened in 1992.

MR GELDENHUYS: Then paragraph 5, you make a submission, you say that you submit that you are entitled to amnesty, you pray that the Amnesty Commission may find, that discovered all relevant information, is this indeed your submission today?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR GELDENHUYS: Just quickly before we close the evidence, you said that you find it difficult to remember dates and you also said that you didn't foresee testifying before the Truth and Reconciliation Committee. Is there any reason why your memory, especially in regards to time is a bit vague?

MR DLAMINI: It is because most of these incidents I have tried to erase them from my mind because I no longer lead my life the normal way as I used to because there is quite a great disturbance to me. I once requested the ANC to enlist some help to me insofar as it relates to all these things that I have done. Often times I find myself not in a position to clearly and crystally so recall all the incidents and relay them as they had happened also the dates respectively but I will find I will fail in some other instances, I recall a few.

MR GELDENHUYS: That is then all the questions for the applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GELDENHUYS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Geldenhuys. Ms Lockhat have you any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, I've just got one question because these newspaper clipping could help us a bit just in relation to the one incident. On page 122 of the bundle, that is just the incident at the cemetery where these people were killed, I just want to check with the applicant because there's a date there on the 1st June 1992, that was when it appeared in the paper and it says the hostel residents were on their way to the funeral at Avalon Cemetery of two youths that died last week during a hand grenade attack. I just want to ask the applicant whether he can just jog his memory a bit whether we could maybe - was that the time that where just before the cemetery where everybody was going to the cemetery that that incident might have occurred where you shot at people and that happened on the 1st June 1992 and just two weeks prior to that two youths were killed, so maybe that would just help him a bit in relation to time?

MR DLAMINI: As I've said, I would be involved in so many things that some of them I don't recall but I may agree or admit that I was part of this. I see here as it reads there was never time when we will get opportunity to get inside the hostels so I really bear no knowledge of this particular one.

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to clear up something? Paragraph 4.11.1

"The person was subsequently shot and severely wounded by a member of my unit."

Who was this member?

MR DLAMINI: You mean my unit? He was not a member of my unit but a member of the residents.

ADV DE JAGER: No but "this person was subsequently shot and severely wounded by a member of my unit following my orders."

MR DLAMINI: Oh, that is when I was referring to my neighbour by the name of Biza, that's the one I'm referring to, I'm talking about.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, now but who shot him? You ordered somebody to go and shoot him. Who did you order and who was this man? He was a member of your unit and your unit was a small unit.

MR DLAMINI: Godfrey is the name or is his name.

ADV DE JAGER: Godfrey who?

MR DLAMINI: I don't have the surname, I don't know it.

ADV DE JAGER: And then as far as paragraph 4.18.2, Bongani, to which party did he belong?

MR DLAMINI: Well I don't know which political organisation he was affiliated with but as for this incident it happened in the township by the civic and some ANC members as well were involved.

ADV DE JAGER: But he was killed because he was mentally ill, not for political reasons?

MR DLAMINI: No he wasn't necessarily mentally sick but he had killed some of his family members then he was not taken to the police station. The township people decided in fact there was some kind of record that was conducted with regards to this matter.

ADV DE JAGER: So they killed him because he killed his own family, he was a criminal and they decided to kill him?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And Motsiani, 4.19.1, he was a hijacker by profession, he was a friend of yours and you shot him in the foot?

MR DLAMINI: No, no, no, he was just an ordinary person who was a criminal at the same time. The reason that led to me shooting him was that part of my unit members had planned that they will kill him but then I was in good communication and in terms with his family then I did not deem it fit but when he was discovered or found I shot him in the foot so to disturb.

ADV DE JAGER: But he wasn't a political opponent of yourself? The motive in shooting him wasn't political?

MR DLAMINI: Well the motive for this was that all the things at the time were done in the name of the political organisation at the time and a person like this one was quite a disturbance to political activities carried in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it apply to Bongani as well?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I assume you are done, Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Has the Panel got any other questions? Not? Have you got re-examination?

MR GELDENHUYS: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Dlamini, you're excused.

Is that the case for the applicant, have you got any other evidence?

MR GELDENHUYS: That is the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Chairperson, may I just put a question to Mr Dlamini which has nothing to do with the merits of the matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlamini, are you receiving any assistance or treatment at the moment in the prison, anybody dealing with your mental attitude? You have told us that you always react with violence, your response is with violence.

MR DLAMINI: Not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Have you requested the prison authorities perhaps to assist you? You say you requested the ANC?

MR DLAMINI: I've done that so many times every since but they take time before they respond to the pleas.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be released from prison next year?

MR DLAMINI: Well according to my sentence I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: It's that seven year sentence, that's the one that you're in prison for now is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Lockhat have you got anything, any evidence that you intend to present?

MS LOCKHAT: No thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Geldenhuys, have you got any submissions on the merits of this case?

MR GELDENHUYS IN ARGUMENT: Indeed Chairperson, my submissions is broadly stated in paragraph 5 and I can relate to those submissions. The test being was the acts politically motivated yes or no? Was there full disclosure made as to the political motivation? I will submit that if not all, most of the acts were indeed politically motivated. It is clear that there was a war going on between the ANC and the IFP and the old government regime and in which Mr Dlamini the applicant took an active part in. He associated himself with this cause, he took up arms, he believed in this cause. Some of the acts might at first glance seem not to be politically motivated but as I understand Mr Dlamini's evidence, incidents like the Motiani incident, 4.19.1 and the Bongani incident, 4.18.3, if one takes account of the circumstances in the township at that stage when there was a total collapse of law and order in which the leader figures in the community were looked at to maybe substitute themselves for this

lack of law and order, one can actually draw it back to the political struggle. So political motivated in maybe not the correct word but in the same political circumstances then that everything else creating, yes. Indeed there was not efficient courts, there was not efficient schooling, there was not efficient police, the evidence that was led makes mention of the fact that the police actually at some stages collaborated with the IFP supporters. So for the ANC's supporters there was no one really to go to in most of the incidents.

Full disclosure, my submission is that there was a full disclosure. If one looks subjectively at the applicant and at his mind and what he can tell us, he made a detailed statement, there is detail missing like exact dates which could have helped the Committee. It is my submission that the fact that there is not enough dates or specific dates is due to the fact that Mr Dlamini is suffering from some kind of mental block out. It is common knowledge that people that took a part in for instance the bush war took some of these incidents out of their minds and they can't remember this and it is my submission that Mr Dlamini, if one has seen so much violence in your life that this is a probability or a possibility that this can indeed be the truth.

Furthermore, it is stated by Mr Dlamini that he didn't keep a diary as such or foresee the possibility that one day he would have to testify before the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and if one looks at the circumstances, this was an ongoing battle war, each and every day there would have been an incident. There's so many incidents in which he came and told the Committee "I was involved in". My submission is that it is not then bad for his case that he can't remember exact dates. Where he could have established dates he did so in fact, for instance the case numbers that we could manage to find in the police computer, the dates thereof but must of these other dates were not reported, all incidents were not reported at the police. That will also go along with the core of my submission that the community didn't trust the police so a lot of these incidents were not reported at the police station as such.

The bundle contains newspaper clippings of the circumstances, not necessarily of the acts Mr Dlamini was involved in but my submission is that there were so many of these incidents and if one looks at the clippings one can actually see that there was an ongoing war and it was not like for instance if something happened in Britain today, in London, the whole world will know about it because normally you don't find violence there but if one looks at Msimshlope in the early 1990s, in the late 1980s, this was a war zone. So as to full disclosure my submission is to the best of his ability he made a full disclosure and it is clear that the other act or the acts, most of them if not all of them, was politically motivated. As Mr Dlamini said there was no reason for himself to go and attack a councillor's house, he did this because he was under the belief that this would strengthen the cause for which he stood and I will then go along with Mr Dlamini and humbly pray that the Committee might grant him amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Geldenhuys. Ms Lockhat, submissions?

MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. I agree with my learned colleague that lots of instances and uprisings occurred during that period in that specific area and the newspaper clippings are there also to assist us and give us the general background and especially the incidents that occurred that it was so random and that no one could really have been charged for any of these acts and it is very nice that Mr Dlamini came forward to the Commission and informing us that he was one of the active members in that period.

Just in relation to the instance relating to Bongani and Motiani, he says he played a role as a community leader in a sense and people would come to them where they needed his help and assistance but if we look at the flip side of the coin where the instance relating to the matter that he's currently serving his sentence with and that's where he doesn't apply for amnesty for that specific act and he says it wasn't politically motivated but yet he also in the same breath says I did this because I saw myself as a protector of the community. So it's - even if you look at that he's telling us that although he assisted another member in the community which is the female that was going to be raped, he stepped in and shot this person that was with him at that instance but he says it wasn't politically motivated and yet he also says that he was - he also him as a protector of the community. Then in the other instances, you know, he applies for amnesty for the Bongani instance as well as the Motiani instance where he also plays more a role of someone as the leader of the community but he sees this as political.

CHAIRPERSON: That was a community action?

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When he shot the rapist it was obviously on the spur of the moment. He says there was a peoples' court for example held in respect of Bongani, but with the other person there, the community was looking for him to deal with him and so on and so on, so it seems to be the difference between the rape incident and the other two.

MS LOCKHAT: Yes Chairperson and indeed I'm just looking just bearing in mind Section 20, sub-section 3, be just the context of everything in that time. So we have to bear that in mind in relation to those instances as well, the context of the community and without the police being there to assist the community and that's my submissions. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. Have you anything else you want to add Mr Geldenhuys?

MR GELDENHUYS: Nothing at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Yes, that concludes this application. It concerns a number of incidents and the Committee will have a look at this and will formulate a decision once we are in a position to do so and we will notify the parties as soon as the decision in this matter is available. We would then in the circumstances reserve the decision in the matter.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Geldenhuys, we express our gratitude to you for your assistance in this matter and would excuse you if you wish to be excused.

MR GELDENHUYS: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat there remains the matters of Mr ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: Advocate Leopeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Shall we stand down just for a moment for you to rearrange the situation here and get whichever is going to be the first one of his applications ready for us?

MS LOCKHAT: Mr Bengu, yes. I appreciate it Chairperson just to five minutes adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will then stand down just for a brief moment to allow the other matters to be prepared.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS