Amnesty Hearings

PETER SHABANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Honnorat.

MR HONNORAT: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will lead Mr Shabangu's evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT: Mr Shabangu, is it correct that you have made an application for amnesty concerning the incident which took place in 1993 resulting in the death of Mr Jacob Manoto? Is it correct that you are applying for amnesty concerning that incident?

MR SHABANGU: That's correct.

MR HONNORAT: Have you got knowledge of that incident?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Can you explain to the court your knowledge of the deceased, Mr Jacob Manoto, prior to the incident of his killing?

MR SHABANGU: I didn't know him.

MR HONNORAT: Can you explain to the court, whether at the time of the incident, you were a member or a supporter of any political organisation or liberation movement involved in the struggle against apartheid?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Can you give details of that to the house.

MR SHABANGU: I was a member of the ANC Youth League.

MR HONNORAT: For how long had you been a member of the ANC Youth League prior to the incident?

MR SHABANGU: I joined ANC in 1990.

MR HONNORAT: What was your reason for joining the ANC in 1990?

MR SHABANGU: I joined the ANC in order to fight against the political discrimination.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Honnorat, just a minute. Adv Bosman hasn't got any sound over her headset here. Where's the technician? Can you just attend to this headset here, please?

MR SHABANGU: Yes, you said you joined in order to ...(intervention)

MR HONNORAT: Fight against political discrimination?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Can you explain to the Commission what was the attitude of the ANC and in general of the liberations movements towards people perceived in the community as being police informers?

MR SHABANGU: The ANC didn't accept that. They used to work in collaboration with the police and at the time we didn't trust the police.

MR HONNORAT: Now from your personal experience of your connection with the ANC Youth League since 1990, what was the attitude concerning what should be done with a person found to be a police informer.

MR SHABANGU: He should be killed.

MR HONNORAT: Have you got any knowledge of a meeting which took place on the 19th of April 1993, attended by members of the ANC Youth League in the Diepkloof area?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Can you give some details of what happened at that meeting to the house.

MR SHABANGU: It was on the 19th, on Monday when we had a meeting.

MR HONNORAT: What was the meeting about?

MR SHABANGU: It was the ANC Youth League meeting.

MR HONNORAT: And what was discussed at that meeting?

MR SHABANGU: We were discussing about one boy who raped a woman.

MR HONNORAT: Yes, apart from that?

MR SHABANGU: And thereafter we had to discuss about two ladies.

MR HONNORAT: Who were these ladies?

MR SHABANGU: I don't know their names, I know that one of them is Sipho's sister and the other is Sipho's wife.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Honnorat. Did you say two ladies came in or did you say you discussed about two ladies?

MR HONNORAT: He said they discussed.

MR SHABANGU: We were discussing about the lady who had been raped and thereafter Sipho’s wife and Sipho's sister entered.

MR HONNORAT: What happened after that?

MR SHABANGU: Sipho's wife explained to us that Mr Manoto has requested the police to come and search their place because Sipho was suspected to have a firearm in his possession.

MR HONNORAT: What happened further at that meeting?

MR SHABANGU: We discussed the matter and we suggested that it should go to the Civic which was supposed to solve the problem.

MR HONNORAT: Was there any decision taken by the ANC Youth League at the meeting concerning this issue?

MR SHABANGU: No, we didn't take a decision. However, we referred them to the Civic Organisation to help them.

MR HONNORAT: What did the Civic Organisation do?

MR SHABANGU: I wouldn't be able to know.

MR HONNORAT: Was there somebody mandated by the ANC Youth League at the meeting, to go and speak about this problem to the Civic Organisation?

MR SHABANGU: No, the two complainants were supposed to go there because they were the people who had the problem.

MR HONNORAT: Did you attend any other meeting subsequent to the 19th of April 1993 in which the issue of the deceased as being a suspected police informer was raised and discussed?

MR SHABANGU: We were informed that there would be a meeting and that we are required to attend the meeting.

MR HONNORAT: Where was the meeting supposed to be held? At which venue?

MR SHABANGU: At Lutheran Church.

MR HONNORAT: Where is that, in which area is that?

MR SHABANGU: It is at Diepkloof Zone 5.

MR HONNORAT: What was the time of the meeting more or less?

MR SHABANGU: It was supposed to be 6 o'clock.

MR HONNORAT: In the morning or in the afternoon?

MR SHABANGU: In the afternoon.

MR HONNORAT: So what happened at that meeting?

MR SHABANGU: Before I went to this meeting, I first went to a lady who was an ANC Youth League member and thereafter I went to the Lutheran Church.

MR HONNORAT: Okay, what happened at the Lutheran Church?

MR SHABANGU: I found a lot of women in the church.

MR HONNORAT: Was there any discussion taking place?

MR SHABANGU: It was even before we entered the Church itself, we were standing outside. Yes, it's correct that they were discussing about someone else.

MR HONNORAT: What was the discussion about?

MR SHABANGU: The first lady to speak was Ms Tshabalala.

MR HONNORAT: Was she one of the two people who attended the 19th of April meeting, Sipho's sister, Sipho's wife, was she one of these two?

MR SHABANGU: No, she didn't attend that meeting.

MR HONNORAT: So who is she any relation to Sipho?

MR SHABANGU: This is Sipho's mother.

MR HONNORAT: So she was the first to speak and what did she say?

MR SHABANGU: She told us that police arrived at her home, they were looking for firearms.

MR HONNORAT: And then?

MR SHABANGU: And she explained that they were sent to her home by Mr Manoto.

MR HONNORAT: Did she say something else?

MR SHABANGU: No.

MR HONNORAT: You say she was the first to speak, who else spoke?

MR SHABANGU: It was Mr Makoba.

MR HONNORAT: Who is he in relation to political organisation, Civic Organisation, any organisation ...(indistinct). Can you establish the relation for the purposes of the house?

MR SHABANGU: He belonged to the Civic Organisation.

MR HONNORAT: Can you say more or less what his age was, Sir?

MR SHABANGU: He's an elderly person. He said that he saw the police cars at the place and he was busy preparing the, he was working at the garden and while he was doing that, preparing his garden, he did see the cars which were in Manoto's place, which left to go to Sipho Tshabalala's place and he further asked Ms Tshabalala what happened and Ms Tshabalala explained to him that the police were looking for firearms and they were sent there by Mr Manoto.

MR HONNORAT: Did he say anything further, Mr Makoba?

MR SHABANGU: No, he sat down thereafter.

MR HONNORAT: Did anybody else speak at that meeting?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Can you say who?

MR SHABANGU: It was Themba Zondo.

MR HONNORAT: Did you know him before?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: Was he a supporter of the ANC?

MR SHABANGU: I wouldn't be able to know whether he was, it was just a person whom I knew.

MR HONNORAT: What did Mr Zondo say at the meeting?

MR SHABANGU: He explained that the relevant time he was coming back from work and his mother told him to go to a neighbour to ask as to what were the police doing at Sipho Tshabalala's place. He went to Sipho Tshabalala's place and he found Sipho's mother and he inquired, saying that his mother asked him to go there to find out what were the police doing at the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us the whole story and I assume he's going to come and testify in any case so I don't know what the value of this is, but tell us what he said.

MR SHABANGU: And Ms Tshabalala explained that the police were looking for firearms and it was explained that these police were sent to the home by Mr Manoto. Themba went back home to report to his mother that Manoto told the police that Sipho had firearms in his possession. Themba sat down.

MR HONNORAT: Did anybody speak at the meeting, anybody else?

MR SHABANGU: Thereafter a certain man spoke. He suggested that we should try and elect elderly people who would go and speak to Mr Manoto. After that Mrs Gumede stood up. Mrs Gumede told them that those people inside, they didn't know anything about the struggle.

MR HONNORAT: And then?

MR SHABANGU: And she suggested that this person should be pursued or should be looked after and killed and that was the stage where we had to leave the place, to go to Mr Manoto's place. When we arrived at Mr Manoto we found him on the roof of the house and we started fighting with him. He was throwing stones at us and we were throwing stones back to him and we were great in number. Some entered in neighbours' houses, others entered Mr Zwane's house. Myself, I followed the group which entered to Mr Zwane's house.

MR HONNORAT: What did you do in Mr Manoto's house?

MR SHABANGU: After entering the yard, Mr Manoto saw us and he ran into the house and I was the first one in front to kick the door. In his bedroom, that's where we found him, inside, it was myself, Hector and Thobele. I'm the one who caught him.

MR HONNORAT: What did you do after catching him?

MR SHABANGU: We dragged him out and we took him out to the comrades who were outside and there were a lot of comrades outside. They started kicking at him and assaulting him. I plucked out an iron and I hit him three times on the head.

MR HONNORAT: What happened after that?

MR SHABANGU: Some comrades were assaulting him with stones and we pulled him to the vicinity of the gate and at the vicinity of the gate, I did hit him again.

MR HONNORAT: How did you hit him?

MR SHABANGU: I was hitting him on the head with the iron.

MR HONNORAT: And then what happened?

MR SHABANGU: And the other comrades continued to hit him with stones and a pickaxe and they started suggested, calling saying "Pete, there is paraffin, here is petrol" and the person who dosed him with those items was comrade Mandla and I set him alight and thereafter we left.

MR HONNORAT: Now you have explained to the house what you did during that particular day at the house of Mr Manoto. Can you explain I mean to the house why you did that? Why you took part in the assault together with those comrades?

MR SHABANGU: I will say that Mr Manoto was an informer and at that time, I mean, informers were not wanted in the townships.

MR HONNORAT: Was there any doubt in your mind that he was an informer, in fact?

MR SHABANGU: I wasn't, I didn't know, or I was aware that he was a "impimpi" and I didn't even know him myself personally.

MR HONNORAT: But when you went there to his house, were you convinced that he was a police informer?

MR SHABANGU: We had information from other comrades that the police would visit his place at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question is, when you went to kill him, did you have any doubts in your mind that he was an informer or did you accept that he was an informer?

MR SHABANGU: I was fully convinced that he was an informer.

MR HONNORAT: Now Mr Shabangu, if you were to go back to those days of the struggle, and you have to deal with a political opponent in the form of a police informer or a spy, what would be your political action as part I mean of a liberation movement in those days?

MR SHABANGU: To kill them because they were not wanted in the township.

MR HONNORAT: Was there any other reason why you attacked Mr Manoto, you did what you did on that night, other than the reason connected to the struggle you have explained to the house? Was there any other reason? Personal animosity, envy, financial gain, anything?

MR SHABANGU: There wasn't any other reason. We attacked him because he was an informer.

MR HONNORAT: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Honnorat. Mr Chelopo, have you got any questions? No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR CHELOPO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I do have questions.

Is it correct Mr Shabangu that you used an iron bar and poured paraffin on the deceased?

MR SHABANGU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Why did you kill Mr Manoto?

MR SHABANGU: He was an informer.

MS THABETHE: And how do you know this?

MR SHABANGU: We were told by his neighbours.

MS THABETHE: So what you are saying is you acted on what you were told by the neighbours, is that correct?

MR SHABANGU: Yes, that's correct and also from other comrades we gathered that he was an informer.

MS THABETHE: Before Mr Manoto was killed, did you know him personally?

MR SHABANGU: No.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Honnorat?

MR HONNORAT: No re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Shabangu, you're excused, thank you very much.

MR CHELOPO: Maybe if I could ask one question, on second thoughts. I thought maybe I don't have a question, then on going through my minutes I see that I've got a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You're not excused yet, just hold on a minute, Mr Chelopo's got a question.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHELOPO: Mr Shabangu, you mentioned one Ms Gumede who was at the meeting, who said to you, who seemed to me she was the last speaker in that meeting. Can you recall her exact words? What did she say, the exact words, that led you to go out of the meeting? Can you recall the exact words please?

MR SHABANGU: She said that the women in that church didn't know anything about the struggle.

MR CHELOPO: Yes.

MR SHABANGU: She said we should go to this man and kill him and that's the time when we had to leave the church and go to Manoto's place.

MR CHELOPO: Were there only women in that church, who were supposed to be sent to Manoto, or were there men also because I hear you talk of Civic is Civic not composed of men and women?

MR SHABANGU: There were women and men in the church.

MR CHELOPO: Then why now women only, because if ever you posed the question, you asked people to go and represent you, I don't think the question referred to the women. Why did she specifically, I answered, directed a question to women.

MR SHABANGU: I won't be able to know.

MR CHELOPO: Were sent there at the time, women only or was there - okay to put it the other way, was the request forwarded directly to women only, or to the Civic?

MR SHABANGU: She was telling all the people in the Church and the comrades knew what they were supposed to do.

MR CHELOPO: They just acted even though Mrs Gumede couldn't have said those words, they would have just continued with their action, is that correct?

MR SHABANGU: I don't think so.

MR CHELOPO: Did Ms Gumede give the instructions?

MR SHABANGU: Who?

MR CHELOPO: Mrs Gumede.

MR SHABANGU: If Mrs Gumede didn't say that this person should be pursued and killed. Maybe it wouldn't have happened.

MR CHELOPO: You said the comrades would have just gone on with their mission, because they knew what they wanted to do. You are saying even though Mrs Gumede couldn't have said those things, is that correct?

MR SHABANGU: No. I'm saying that a comrade did inform us about Mr Manoto but we didn't have proof of that and after the neighbours came to tell us the same, we thought then this could be true because they couldn't just, I mean, start out any rumour which is false about him.

MR CHELOPO: In one of the statements that I read even though it's not yours, Mr Shabangu, I'm sorry, it says that the meeting was chaotic. Can you explain why that really, can you confirm why that really the meeting was chaotic?

MR KOOPEDI: Could I object, Mr Chairperson, related to that question, because that question relates to another applicant and that statement was not mentioned by the present applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well he didn't say that, Mr Chelopo.

MR CHELOPO: Okay, I withdraw the question.

Mr Shabangu, in that meeting, in the Church meeting, can you tell us the situation in that meeting? What was the situation according to your own direction?

MR SHABANGU: I believe that he stayed in Soweto and, but you should have known that in Soweto that if you're an informer, you were not wanted.

MR CHELOPO: Mr Shabangu, I'm asking your own perspective on the situation at the meeting, whether the meeting was a free flowing meeting or not? Your own perspective on the meeting, I'm not asking whether I'm from Soweto or not from Soweto, can you maybe explain on what I'm asking?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabangu, somebody else apparently said that the meeting was chaotic, now what is your comment on that, do you agree or disagree with that observation, with that opinion, because it's somebody else's opinion in any case.

MR SHABANGU: I'd say people were angry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, why did you act in such a particularly savage way? You testified that you hit him with an iron bar and you hit him again with an iron bar and then you got petrol and you said you put the petrol over him and you lit the petrol, why did you act in such a savage way?

MR ZULU: Point of correction, Mr Chairperson, the applicant said initially that one of the comrades brought petrol and doused the victim or the deceased with petrol and the applicant set him alight.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps I could just refer to paragraph 11 on page 40, where it says"

"I went in his house and found the paraffin in a bottle. I took it and poured it on Mr Manoto."

I was actually referring to that, perhaps I should draw your attention to that first. If you could have a look Mr Shabangu on page 40.

MR ZULU: That's correct. In fact, on taking instruction, it was actually clarified that it is not the present applicant who actually poured petrol or doused the deceased with petrol, but it's one of the applicant who is still to adduce evidence to this Committee.

ADV BOSMAN: Chairperson, with respect, I think that the applicant should then clarify that to the Committee because the Committee has before it the statement that

"I went in his house and found paraffin in a bottle."

MR ZULU: As the Committee pleases.

ADV BOSMAN: On page 40, paragraph 11. Mr Shabangu do you see that on page 40, paragraph 11?

MR HONNORAT: Perhaps Mr Chairman, the question is to be asked whether this present applicant can read English properly, whether the statement in English reflects that what he saw as having been written down.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HONNORAT: ; Because I think that has to be established first and then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just a minute, Mr Shabangu, did you go into the house of Mr Manoto and find a bottle of paraffin in there?

MR SHABANGU: Yes, I went to Mr Manoto's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SHABANGU: The comrades came with a bottle of paraffin not myself.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't find the petrol, paraffin, sorry? Alright.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry Chairperson, I am sorry, I thought you'd finished.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I was just going to repeat your question to him. The question is why did you act in that particular fashion towards Mr Manoto? Why did you hit him with the iron bar and all that?

MR SHABANGU: As I've already explained that Mr Manoto was an informer. Chairperson, as you might know that, I mean, we were living in difficult conditions and an informer was not wanted in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: I just want to rephrase my question. Was it necessary to act in such a particularly savage fashion, to kill Mr Manoto?

MR SHABANGU: I would say yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Why?

MR SHABANGU: Because he was an informer.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't pursue this any further, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ZULU: Chairperson, just one question to the applicant. Mr Shabangu, now that you've related whatever you did at that time, do you regret your actions, do you feel sorry about what you did at that time?

MR SHABANGU: I am deeply sorry about it.

MR ZULU: Why at this stage do you feel sorry about it?

MR SHABANGU: What we did, or things that we did were bad and at this time I would like to ask the family of the deceased to forgive me because it was a bad thing that we did.

MR ZULU: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZULU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're now excused Mr Shabangu.

MR HONNORAT: Mr Chairman, can I have a question resulting from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, please, I mean either you or Mr Zulu handle the re-examination of the witness, we can't ping pong. I mean really, we're not ...(intervention)

MR HONNORAT: This is just a question resulting from Adv Bosman's previous question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you see you'll have to make up your minds which one of the two of you are appearing for a particular witness, because I'm not going to allow you both to be jumping around and asking questions, it will make just a mockery out of this process. I won't accept that, so you've got to decide who is leading which of the applicants, or which witness and that person will deal with that evidence. So please.

MR HONNORAT: Yes, Mr Chairman, that's was interrupted when I was going to ask a question that was directly related to Adv Bosman's former questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now please deal with that and let's get done with this witness's evidence.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HONNORAT: Mr Shabangu, in the political circumstances of the time, would you feel that politically it was the right option to deal with the police informer by killing him in a public open way or by doing it in a secret way, in a hidden way that nobody would know about it?

MR SHABANGU: We would have to kill the person in public.

MR HONNORAT: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HONNORAT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you're excused Mr Shabangu. Thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I approach please?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

MS THABETHE: Can I approach?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was about to, I was told that the people in custody have to depart at 4.30, so I was about to adjourn. Do you have to approach us before we adjourn, or can you do it after we've adjourned?

MS THABETHE: Before you adjourn Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's hear.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've come to the end of the day, and of today's proceedings. We will now adjourn and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS