CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today we are starting a number of Hearings that have been set down for the week. We have 9 separate matters. I apologise for the late start this morning, but it is usual with the first day of hearings. It all has to be set up, counsel have to consult etc on various problems. Before we start I would like to just immediately introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Judge Chris de Jager, he's a member of the Amnesty Committee. He comes from Pretoria. On my left is Adv Sigodi, who is also a member of the Amnesty Committee. She comes from Port Elizabeth and I am Selwyn Miller, also a Judge of the High Court. I come from Umtata. Before we start I would also like to ask the legal representatives if they could kindly place themselves on record, but before we do that, we're starting with ...(indistinct) Mr Samuel Thebisa Ntho.
MR KOPEDI: Thank you Judge. My name is Brian Kopedi. I appear on behalf of Mr Ntho.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi.
MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated. If you wish to benefit from the translation, then you must please obtain one of these devices, this headset, they are available from the sound technician. Mr Kopedi.
MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, we are ready to begin and I would ask that the applicant be sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi.
SAMUEL THEBISA NTHO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ntho. Mr Kopedi.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Ntho, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that the application revolves around an incident of throwing of a hand grenade at a contingent of police?
MR NTHO: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: Is it also correct that this incident occurred on the 24th of January 1992?
MR NTHO: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: Now at this stage, were you a member of any political organisation?
MR NTHO: Yes, I was.
MR KOPEDI: Which political organisation?
MR NTHO: I was a member of the ANC.
MR KOPEDI: When did you join the ANC?
MR NTHO: In 1989.
MR KOPEDI: Where did you join the ANC?
MR NTHO: In Tanzania.
MR KOPEDI: You say in 1989 in Tanzania?
MR NTHO: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: Did you undergo any military training?
MR NTHO: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: When did you come back to South Africa?
MR NTHO: In 1991 on the 11th of December.
MR KOPEDI: Okay. Now let's go to the events of the 24th of January 1992. Where were you on this day?
MR NTHO: I was at Mrs Radebe's house in Sharpeville.
MR KOPEDI: And what were you doing there?
MR NTHO: We spent a night there, we slept over there.
MR KOPEDI: You and who?
MR NTHO: It was myself, Thabo Mosebe, Khubeka and Ephraim Lefiedi.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ntho, if you could just please repeat those names again.
MR NTHO: It was myself, Thabo Mosebe, Kenneth Khubeka and Ephraim Lefiedi.
MR KOPEDI: Was there any other person, other than these gentlemen?
MR NTHO: It was Mrs Radebe and her daughter besides the ones I've mentioned.
MR KOPEDI: Now where were you? Were you at a house or in a house?
MR NTHO: We were in a house.
MR KOPEDI: What were you doing?
MR NTHO: We were sleeping.
MR KOPEDI: Briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened, you know, what led to this incident?
MR NTHO: When I arrived, people came home to ask where I was and I saw it necessary to hide because I did not know why did they want me. I guessed they were going to harm me also, so it happened that we got a hiding place at Mrs Radebe's house so that we can hide there.
At night when we were asleep, if I'm not mistaken I think it was in the morning, 2/3 o'clock in the morning, while we were still asleep, there was a bad knock. Somebody knocked at the door inhumanely and then those people who were knocking roughly opened the door themselves.
I took a grenade from Kenneth Khubeka and it was dark in the house. I took a grenade from Khubeka, I released the pin. They were now in the kitchen. I went out of the bedroom. I placed the grenade on the floor and I pushed it, coming behind it. I then pushed it so that it does not explode on me. When I was at the door, it then exploded. I went outside. I jumped the fence. They fired at me whilst I was still running away. When I was just about to turn around the corner into another street, they shot me in the back and on the leg. They then came back with me, they made me lie down.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kopedi, before you proceed, could I just get some information? Mr Ntho you said that you decided to go to Mrs Radebe's house because people were asking where you were? Did you go there in the company of Khubeka and Ephraim, or did you find them there?
MR NTHO: The four of us went together.
CHAIRPERSON: And why was it that Mr Khubeka was in possession of a hand grenade?
MR NTHO: He got those hand grenades from Ephraim Lefiedi. Those were the hand grenades to defend ourselves when they were harassing us. I'm referring to the police.
CHAIRPERSON: So were you a unit, the four of you?
MR NTHO: We were not a unit as such, let me put it that way. We were not a unit, but all of us were companions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Kopedi.
MR KOPEDI: Now Mr Ntho, after - perhaps before then. The people who came and knocked at the door and even broke the door, did you have any idea who they were?
MR NTHO: I did not know who they were.
MR KOPEDI: But could you tell whether these were police or soldiers or people about to rob the house, could you tell?
MR NTHO: Can you please repeat your question, I do not quite understand it?
MR KOPEDI: Okay. The people attacked were police. Now I want to know from you as to whether did you know when the doors were being broken and there was the bad knocking you referred to, could you tell if these were police?
MR NTHO: I could not tell at first, but I only realised that they were police when they were dragging me back to the house. When I woke up from my sleep, I was a little bit disturbed. There is nothing that you would notice when you wake up. You would not even differentiate between colours, whether this colour is red. You would not.
MR KOPEDI: Now, what was the political situation in and around Sharpeville those times, January 1992?
MR NTHO: I arrived in the country on the 11th of December. From that date until the 24th, I did not notice many things. I did not notice what was happening politically.
MR KOPEDI: Okay. When you threw this hand grenade, what was your intention?
MR NTHO: I did not know who the people were. Now by throwing this hand grenade, I was avoiding danger or death that these people were bringing.
MR KOPEDI: Now what is the political objective that you sought to achieve by throwing this hand grenade?
MR NTHO: These people continually harassed me then I had to protect myself because I was a member of a political organisation.
MR KOPEDI: Did you receive any personal gain out of this exercise?
MR NTHO: No, Sir.
MR KOPEDI: Were you imprisoned for this offence?
MR NTHO: Yes, I was.
MR KOPEDI: Did you serve a sentence?
MR NTHO: Yes, I served a sentence.
MR KOPEDI: How long a sentence?
MR NTHO: I was sentenced to 8 years, I spent 4 years in prison.
MR KOPEDI: Do you think you have told this Honourable Committee all there is to tell about this incident?
MR NTHO: Yes, Sir.
MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, that will be the applicant's application.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Ntho, tell me, did you realise that it was the policemen that night at the door?
MR NTHO: No, I did not.
MS LOCKHAT: So when you triggered the hand grenade, you were not sure who was on the other side of the door, is that correct?
MR NTHO: I wasn't sure. What are you referring to when you say I wasn't sure? Put it in a different way, maybe I will understand it.
MS LOCKHAT: When you heard the knock on the door and you realised that the people were trying to come in and you thought they were looking for you, did you realise at that stage that it was the police? I assume you didn't realise it at that stage. Am I correct?
CHAIRPERSON: I think he's already said that at the time that he rolled or threw the hand grenade, he didn't know they were police. What I can gather, perhaps Mr Ntho can correct me if I'm wrong, but these people, you say that they knocked hard on the door and that they forcefully entered through the door. Did they break down the door? Did they kick it in?
MR NTHO: Yes, they must have broken the door down, because they were knocking hardly on the door.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the door locked, that you know of?
MR NTHO: Yes, the door was locked.
CHAIRPERSON: And you keep talking about they, Mr Ntho, did you have any idea, or at the time when you took the pin out of the grenade, how many people there were, whether it was only one person or if there were a number and if you thought there were a number of people, what made you think that?
MR NTHO: I think I mentioned earlier on that when I got out of the bedroom with a grenade in my hand, there was a group of people in the kitchen.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us some approximation, how many people were there, 3, 5, more?
MR NTHO: Let me explain it this way, you might understand me. When I got out of the bedroom, I found a group of people in the kitchen. When I was outside running away, I was shot at and the people who were outside shot at me.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.
MS LOCKHAT: Do you know of any people that were injured by yourself that night?
MR NTHO: I do not know. I was injured, I was taken to the hospital. Who got injured, how many of them got injured, I do not know, but what I noticed when I was in court, I saw photographs of people whom I was told were injured.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mrs Radebe and her daughter, were they injured?
MR NTHO: No, they were not.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And your colleagues there, any of them injured?
MR NTHO: Two of them died on the spot. I was injured. Kenneth Khubeka escaped unharmed, but two of them died on the spot.
MS LOCKHAT: You also said that you were being continually harassed by people. Can you just explain to us who these people were?
MR NTHO: I do not know because they would arrive at home in my absence and they would not leave their names, would they? They did not leave their names, they would just arrive at home and ask where the person was. If the person was not at home they would leave and on my arrival I would be told the police were here looking for you.
MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that on that particular night, that the policemen were looking for you and maybe your friends and that they wanted to take you and arrest you? Would you say that that was what was happening that particular night and therefore you threw the hand grenade?
MR NTHO: Repeat your question Ma'am, I did not understand it.
MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that you threw the hand grenade on that particular night because you thought that these people, or the police were going to arrest you and therefore you threw the hand grenade to protect yourself and the people that were with you?
MR NTHO: Had I known that they were police, I would have in any way carried on with the throwing of the grenade. These people have a tendency, they just arrest you, take you to their offices and they would bind you, tie you up with ropes and they would torture you. Have you ever felt the pain of being tortured by many people and yet you cannot defend yourself? Now instead of that happening, I would rather be shot on the head, because the next day after the torture, you are left with pains.
MS LOCKHAT: Were you arrested, on how many occasions were you arrested by the police? I gather that you were arrested and tortured by the police previous to this occasion. Can you just explain that to us?
MR NTHO: I think I was arrested when I was 16 years old at the borders to Botswana, that's where I gathered the experience that these people are not good at all. That's where I realised that it is painful to be tortured while you cannot defend yourself.
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think the police were looking for you to arrest you?
MR NTHO: I had been from exile, maybe they wanted me to use me, but I think they wanted to use me. When I left the country there was no good relationship between me and them. I came back knowing that there are people who can chase me at any time when I'm back.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi, do you have any re-examination?
MR KOPEDI: No, nothing in re-examination, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to put?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, any questions?
ADV SIGODI: Just one, thank you Chair. You say two of your colleagues died on the spot? Did they die ...(intervention)
MR NTHO: Yes, two of them died on the spot.
ADV SIGODI: Did they die as a result of the hand grenade or did they did as a result of being shot at by the police?
MR NTHO: They were not killed by the grenade. This is what I would say to you. I saw with my own eyes when they went outside, I was already on the ground, after having been shot, they came out with Ephraim. There were many around him and they shot him and they threw him at me. When I touched him, I discovered that he had died already. It was just sheer luck that I survived. Maybe I was the one meant to die on the spot.
ADV SIGODI: Was there any damage caused to Mrs Radebe's house as a result of the hand grenade?
MR NTHO: I think there were damages to the house. I was taken to the hospital, from the hospital to the cells, but I believe there were damages to the house in the kitchen. I think damage can also be equated to what they did when they were knocking on the doors and breaking the windows.
ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntho, your three companions that went with you to hide in Mrs Radebe's house, were they also recently returned from exile?
MR NTHO: It was myself and Ephraim Lefiedi who came back from exile.
CHAIRPERSON: And is there any reason why all four of you went to hide at Mrs Radebe? You said that police came to your house making inquiries about you, why did the four of you go and hide there and not just yourself?
MR NTHO: It is unfortunate that Mr Ephraim Lefiedi is no longer with us. What he said to me, he said that he heard that there are people driving cars looking for him to kill him. That might be one of the reasons why they went to Mrs Radebe's house.
CHAIRPERSON: And just one last question. Did you yourself, prior to going to Mrs Radebe's house, live in Sharpeville, or did you go to Mrs Radebe's house from another area?
MR NTHO: I'd been living in Sharpeville.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel?
MR KOPEDI: No questions, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ntho, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, that should conclude his application, there are no further witnesses we wish to call.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Are you in a position to make submissions?
MR KOPEDI: A verbal submission Chairperson and a short one.
MR KOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, I submit that the applicant who has just been before you here, Mr Ntho, was a member of a political organisation at the relevant time.
It is my further submission that he has complied with the requirements of the Act in terms of giving you a full disclosure of the events that happened that day and in brief Chairperson, we have a person, a member of the ANC who had just returned from exile, who believed that there were people after him.
Looking at the political situation in that area at that time, it is my submission that it was justified that a person in his capacity would believe that he may be set up for an attack.
Chairperson, the attack on the police, that is the use of the hand grenade, my submission is that there was no personal gain that this applicant achieved. He wasn't paid for doing that and the attack was solely in his mind to defend himself and perhaps his colleagues.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kopedi I should have perhaps have asked Mr Ntho a further question, but maybe you could just inform us. Was either Mrs Radebe or her daughter ever charged with anything as a result of what happened that night?
MR KOPEDI: To my knowledge no, they were not charged.
CHAIRPERSON: Why I'm asking, were the police in going to her house, they weren't going for her or her daughter, but for ...(intervention)
MR KOPEDI: As it would appear Chairperson, the only person charged was the applicant who has just been before you and my instructions and from consultations it appears that the police raided this house because they knew that there would be activists of this sort in that house and finally Chairperson, I believe that you should be able to find enough political motivation and objectives in terms of his actions and I submit that this applicant is legible for amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: And the applicant, he was charged only in respect of what took place at that house?
MR KOPEDI: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't charged, they weren't looking for him for another crime or something, he wasn't charged for anything else?
MR KOPEDI: That didn't seem to be the case. He was charged with attacking the police with a hand grenade. They didn't even charge him with ...(indistinct talking simultaneously)
CHAIRPERSON: So one can infer the reason why they were going to the house was to get him, not because he had committed a common law crime.
MR KOPEDI: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But because of his as you say, being an activist.
MR KOPEDI: As he testified, the applicant Mr Ntho, together with one Ephraim Lefiedi, both were people who had just returned from exile and they had undergone military training.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, while you're there, could you spell Lefiedi?
MR KOPEDI: Lefiedi is spelled L-E-F-I-E-D-I. They had just returned from exile. It also appears from the evidence given by the applicant, that there were two other gentlemen in the house who had not returned from exile, but who were their peers and who were also in possession of hand grenades, which he stated they used to defend themselves. I would assume the police had information as to this group and perhaps as to their hiding place and that is basically why the police raided the house.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Kopedi, I've got this difficulty. If he didn't know the intruders were police, he threw the hand grenade at people he didn't recognise or didn't know. How could we then say that he had a political objective?
MR KOPEDI: I believe I asked him that question while he was giving evidence and I think the answer was that and it was some kind of a build-up in that initially for him to have taken the steps to hide at this house, there has been constant harassment by the people he cannot define or describe, people he did not know. He assumed that his political background is the source of his harassment and from his evidence, it is clear that him and these other gentlemen were also in hiding, they had not just gone to visit at this house and he gave the reasons being that this other person, I think it was Lefiedi, had also received some harassment and questions, people in cars were looking for him to kill him and according to them, their only crime, if that's a crime, was that they were members of the ANC, they had undergone military training and so any attack that comes to them at this hiding place, it's my submission, would be an attack which is a politically motivated attack and therefore the defence ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: But at that stage the ANC was unbanned.
MR KOPEDI: Indeed the ANC was banned, but ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: No, they were unbanned, disbanned.
MR KOPEDI: It was unbanned on the 24th of January, but the hostilities, the fights amongst people in the townships was still going on.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes but he himself, his evidence is that he didn't realise that there was a lot of fighting going on because in his vicinity, on coming back in December up to the 22nd of January, he didn't realise what the political situation was.
MR KOPEDI: I think his answer was that he didn't see much, but not that he didn't realise what the political situation was and when he was asked the question why did he go to Mrs Radebe's house, his answer was that - if I may check - his answer was that he went to this house because he had received several threats and that he was being harassed since returning from exile. He was not being harassed for anything, according to him, other than his political standing.
ADV SIGODI: How did he know that?
MR KOPEDI: That's what ...(intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Because he never met the people who came to his home?
CHAIRPERSON: I think what my understanding is, he had only been in the country a month and he wasn't charged for any common law crime or anything, there was no other reason for people to come for him.
MR KOPEDI: Yes, I think he gave evidence that before leaving the country, he had undergone numerous arrests and harassments and he left the country and his evidence was that when he came back, which was in December, there were these harassments going on at his house and he ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: He only said he was once arrested at the border, he didn't say about arrested on numerous occasions.
MR KOPEDI: Most probably because I was listening to his evidence in Sotho and perhaps both in English, because I seem to remember him saying: "I can't tell how many times I've been arrested" and he went on to say, "there was an instance at the Botswana border and I knew from those time how difficult it was for one to be tortured without hitting back."
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think whether he was arrested once or several times prior to his returning doesn't carry much.
MR KOPEDI: No it doesn't.
CHAIRPERSON: Because it's more, what I gathered from his evidence, more the fact that he had recently returned from Tanzania.
MR KOPEDI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That he thought that he was being harassed.
MR KOPEDI: That's right. He has not given evidence that concretely proves that, or shows that he was being harassed and for what, he just told you that he believed he was being harassed for being, you know, what he was, for being a political activist.
JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(mike not on) Let's assume that, but then he had to, to protect himself in self-defence. There was not political objective, to further the objectives of a political party for instance.
MR KOPEDI: I believe it depends from which side one looks at it. If we are subjective about the matter at the moment, from his point of view, he believes that he needs to go to Mrs Radebe's house to hide and the reason is simply because he is being harassed for his political standing and his political associations, being a member of the ANC, that's where he moves from. Now any attack on him, it's an attack on him, not as a person, but as a political activist and my submission is therefore that the defence thereof, should be viewed politically in that he would not have been in that position had it not been his political standing. All the people who were in this house who were being attacked by these unknown people who turn out to be police, all of them are political activists of some sort. Some have undergone training, some seem to have been locally trained people with ammunition on them, but I submit that his attack on the police, being a defensive attack, was solely intended to defend his comrades who were all together there, all of them went to this house for one reason, to hide from certain forces which were attacking or harassing them politically or for being political activists. That is all I wish to say, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any submissions?
MS LOCKHAT: Just a few Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT: I do concur with my learned colleague on a number of issues and the fact that, I don't think we should look at this incident so isolated, we have to take into account the applicant's political background and that he was an MK soldier. We also know that it is common cause that MKs used to go into safe-houses and move away from their own homes and that's exactly what this applicant did. He went to Mrs Radebe's house as a safe-house, he says, with these other comrades.
We have to also look at the time when this incident took place. It was early in the morning and it was common practice for the police in those days, to enter people's homes very, very early in the morning and aggressively, so we can also say that the applicant stated that he was harassed by people, but he also went further. He was not a very sophisticated witness, I must add, but he also went on further, but not, he didn't elaborate much but he also said that the police were looking for him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and he did say that one of the reports he got from his home was that the police were coming to arrest him.
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, so we should look at this incident more in a holistic and not an isolated event and also not, as I said it's common practice for the police to use these methods in those days and his reactions was, with the hand grenade, we also shouldn't look at it isolated, that he didn't know who the people were. I think they could have, in that kind of situation, assumed that this was going to be an attack on them, especially if it was an aggressive attack and people were already in the house and he reacted in that fashion and it's also common cause that MKs did also carry arms and ammunition on them to protect themselves, such as hand grenades.
We must also look at the fact that this applicant has already served his sentence. He's out on parole at the moment. He serve 4 years prison sentence. So my submission Chairperson is just to have a more holistic look at the applicant's situation at that point in time and leave the decision in the Committee's hands. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi, I take it you will not be attacking Ms Lockhat's argument at all?
MR KOPEDI: Not at all. It has been very helpful, I must say, thank you Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well reserve our decision in this matter. Thank you Mr Kopedi, Ms Lockhat. Are you ready to go on with the next matter or should we take the tea adjournment at this stage?
MS LOCKHAT: Can we just adjourn at this stage, please Chairperson. I want to just see if one of the applicants are here already, one of Mr Kopedi's clients. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What we'll do is we'll take the short tea adjournment at this stage. If you can let us know when you're ready to proceed.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
