ANDREW NKOMONA P. MATHABATHE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi.
MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Mathabathe, you've heard what your co-applicants have told this Honourable Committee. Of particular importance, is it correct that you were a member of a unit wherein Mr Mntambo and Mr Ndlungwane were members?
MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: This unit, was it an MK unit?
MR MATHABATHE: Yes, it was an MK unit.
MR KOPEDI: Did you belong to any political organisation?
MR MATHABATHE: Yes.
MR KOPEDI: Which political organisation?
MR MATHABATHE: African National Congress.
MR KOPEDI: Now you've heard what Mr Mntambo told this Honourable Committee and in particular mentioning the instance where you were involved in the operations carried out by this unit. Would you like to comment on that? That is on the correctness thereof?
MR MATHABATHE: What he mentioned here is true. All that he mentioned here is true.
MR KOPEDI: Is there anything that he did not mention, which he omitted and which you think should be told to this Honourable Committee?
MR MATHABATHE: I think he mentioned everything and everything that he has mentioned is true.
MR KOPEDI: Now let us move to the events after Mr Mntambo had been taken to the Glenmed hospital. He has mentioned that you were in possession of the money from the robbery, is that correct?
MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.
MR KOPEDI: What did you do with this money? What happened? Please tell this Committee what you did with this money, if anything really.
MR MATHABATHE: After Linda went to the hospital, because he was in a position to talk to Bless, I was under his command. I had the money with me and I visited him to the hospital and I asked him what to do with the money. He told me that I must meet with Bless at a certain point in Dube, it's a park. He told me that Bless would come and collect the money. Indeed we met with Bless and he took the money, all the money that was left over he took from me.
MR KOPEDI: Do you remember how much he took from you, how much you gave him?
MR MATHABATHE: I did not personally count the money. I gave him all. That is the money that was taken, except the money that was paid out to assist with Linda's medical fees.
MR KOPEDI: Who paid Linda's medical fees?
MR MATHABATHE: I do not have evidence to that effect but on his way to the hospital it was myself and Bobo Tshabalala. I do not know exactly who paid for the fees at the hospital.
CHAIRPERSON: Who counted the money?
MR MATHABATHE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did? Who counted the money? We've heard that there was R76 000 involved. How do we know there was R76 000 involved? How does that figure - where does that figure come from?
MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson, we only heard of that from the newspapers and from the television reports. Even when we were arrested we were told that that was the sum of money that was stolen.
CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mathabathe when you say you had the money, was it used notes or were there cheques? Do you know? Did you look at the money physically?
MR MATHABATHE: Yes, it was notes and coins as well.
MR KOPEDI: Do you know if there were any cheques?
MR MATHABATHE: I do not recall whether there were cheques.
MR KOPEDI: Okay and you met with Monde, or Bless at this park, gave him the money. What else? Anything else happen? Did you ever see Monde again? Did he tell you where he was going to take the money to? What happened?
MR MATHABATHE: The evidence that was put forward by Linda as to how the money was going to be utilised, that is the true version of what was going to happen and the money was going to be used according to how he put before this Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was I think Mr Kopedi, did you ever see Monde after that? Did you ever get the opportunity to ask him what in fact happened with the money?
MR MATHABATHE: Unfortunately after quite some time after handing the money over to Monde, we were arrested on the 27th of January, in other words I never met with Monde afterwards.
MR KOPEDI: So it is correct to say that although at some stage you were the custodian of this money, you do not know what ultimately happened to it, that is other than the money used to pay Glenmed Hospital?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Page 59, there's an "uitspraak", a judgment, by Judge Smit of the then Supreme Court in 1990 in the case against Mr Mogapi and he says, and I'll read it in Afrikaans
"Linda (that's Mr Mntambo) het die geld spandeer (spent the money) om potte en 'n eetstel (on pots and cutlery) komberse en 'n radio (blankets and a radio to buy) en om hul reisgeld (and to pay for travel money) hotelfooie (that's hotel costs and food)"
Do you know where that comes from?
MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson you clearly put that it was at George's trial but somewhere the trials were separated, mine and George's were separated. I do not know what George mentioned in his trial.
CHAIRPERSON: You can't comment on that extract of the Judgment which I read? Thank you. Ms Lockhat any questions?
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to page 3 of your amnesty application form that's in the bundle. I just want to clarify one aspect. At paragraph 9(a)(i) it says, the last one, I think that's (d) "Attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle". I just want to see if that's the same incident relevant to the police officer, or is it a different incident? If Mr Kopedi could just clarify that for me.
MR KOPEDI: Which page are you on?
CHAIRPERSON: Take a look at this. Page 3 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a), it's towards the bottom of the page, little (i), number (d) "Attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle"
MR KOPEDI: I believe the first applicant alluded to this matter and other matters where attempts were made but nothing materially came out of and I believe this (d) refers to one such attempt.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) traffic officer.
MR KOPEDI: No, if I may try and recap what was the evidence. In terms of the traffic officer, they definitely shot at him. They went to the traffic officer who opened his window, drew out a firearm, they fled and shot at him, but there were several other operations which really didn't take place. For instance, there was one operation where they were going to throw a hand grenade at police officials. This did not happen because of a risk that other people could be injured. There was another attempt of a booby trapped hand grenade on somebody's gate, all these things did not happen and I believe that this little (d) refers to one such attempt.
CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps Mr Mathabathe you can - attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle, what's that about?
MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson you will recall after Linda Mntambo gave his evidence, he mentioned that we also tried to hit at a patrol van, but we did not succeed. We withdrew because it was around 7 and a lot of people were around there, we realised that other people would be injured. This was only targeted to the police not the other people.
CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't really an attempt in the legal sense of the word, but it was at best a conspiracy, because you never actually other than taking a look and seeing that there were too many people, you never actually did anything there?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to come back to the incident with the money. Who gave the R4 000 or the R5 000 to Linda for his hospital bills and so forth? Who gave him that money?
MR MATHABATHE: The money was taken out on our way to the hospital so that he could pay. He would not be admitted before the deposit was put on the table, so that he can be given a bed at the hospital for his treatment.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, who took that money, that R4 000?
MR MATHABATHE: I do not recall whether it was me or Linda, because he was also there.
MS LOCKHAT: So was this money all together in a bag or something by that stage? Was the money in a bag at that stage?
CHAIRPERSON: R4 000.
MS LOCKHAT: Yes, was it with the other R76 000 for instance, did you take it out of the bag?
MR MATHABATHE: I think so.
MS LOCKHAT: And how long did you have this money in your possession?
MR MATHABATHE: I would not be accurate, but it was a few days, if not a week.
MS LOCKHAT: So here you go, rob these Fidelity Guards, you have all this money, it was in trunks, isn't it? Then who transferred the money from the trunks into the bags?
MR MATHABATHE: I do not know what to say because nobody among us mentioned that the money was transferred from the trunks into the bags.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in the transference of the money from the trunks to anywhere else, you yourself personally?
MR MATHABATHE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So what did you do with it? Now we were told there were two steel trunks. You've got them now, what did you do with them? Break them open, open them and then what happened? Just tell us?
MR MATHABATHE: Exactly. All of us opened the trunks. We took the money and we put it inside one bag. I left after a few days to go and destroy those trunks around Moroka.
MS LOCKHAT: So you had this bag of money for a couple of days, isn't it so?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
MS LOCKHAT: So here you robbed these people, you've got all this money and you don't bother to count the money, I don't understand that.
MR MATHABATHE: It is true. That was not my order, to count the money, was it? The order was that we should get money.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think what she's saying, Mr Mathabathe, it's not a question of orders, you don't have to be ordered to do every single thing, to open the trunk and then to be ordered to take it out, be ordered to put it on the table, be ordered to put it in a bag, you just do these things without being ordered. Now she's saying, she's putting it to you, isn't it unusual that you've got this money for some days and no one even bothers to count it? Wasn't there some sort of inherent curiosity to find out whether these FG people are saying to the police R76 000 was robbed when in fact it was only R10 000?
MR MATHABATHE: I did not count the money, really.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just to clarify something, I seem to be getting confused here. When was Linda taken to hospital? When was Mr Mntambo taken to hospital?
MR MATHABATHE: On the day of his injury, that is on the day of the incident.
ADV SIGODI: But now you say that you had to take the R4 000 after a couple of days you ordered for Mr Mntambo to be admitted into hospital. Can you clarify that, because he wouldn't be admitted at hospital.
MR MATHABATHE: I said to the Chairperson the money was taken on the same day because he would not be admitted at the hospital without a deposit or the money for the medical expenses.
ADV SIGODI: And did you know how much would be needed at hospital before? Who told you how much would be needed at the hospital?
MR MATHABATHE: We went with Ospops. Ospops was one of the nurses. He mentioned to us that Linda would not be admitted without the money that we've referred to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.
MS LOCKHAT: And do you know if Simon Metseng, he wanted to have him released as well, he wanted to use this money for him as well, did you put aside money for that as well?
MR MATHABATHE: Linda Mntambo did mention that Bless was the person organising all this.
MS LOCKHAT: So when you handed over the money to Monde did you not, who did you hand the money over to eventually?
MR MATHABATHE: Can you repeat that please?
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, who did you eventually hand the money over to? I think you said it was Monde, in the park.
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you ever check to find out what Monde did with that money? Did you try to contact him again after this incident?
MR MATHABATHE: I did mention that after this incident, we were arrested.
MS LOCKHAT: So you didn't have any contact with Monde after that?
MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Just one last question. Did you give any money to any of the comrades that participated in this incident, seeing that you had all this money. Did you give any money, maybe R1 000 or whatever to any of the comrades involved in the incident at that time?
MR MATHABATHE: No.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Do you have any re-examination?
MR KOPEDI: Nothing. No re-exam thanks Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kopedi. Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you hand the money to Mr Monde?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So Linda was never in possession of the bag of money, is that correct?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Now Linda had a girlfriend, Veronica Mabusa, did you know her?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: She testified at the hearing of Mr Mogapi, was that the ... Yes. And she told the court that the money was handed to her. She had the bag of money and it was a large amount but she didn't know how much and Linda asked her to put the bag in a wardrobe and that Mr Mogapi told her that some of the money was used to pay Linda's hospital costs and an amount of R4 000 was mentioned indeed and then she goes on to say that Linda spent some of the money on cutlery, blankets and so on. You don't know anything about that?
MR MATHABATHE: No, I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: That's in direct contradiction to what you've testified. So you say that you had the money in your possession the whole time and you gave it over to Monde. You didn't have any getting the money from Veronica did you?
MR MATHABATHE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: So you dispute that?
MR MATHABATHE: I dispute that.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, any questions you'd like to ask?
ADV SIGODI: You say, at this time how long had you been an MK member?
MR MATHABATHE: From 1988.
ADV SIGODI: And you say you had been given some training?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
ADV SIGODI: Your training was given to you by, who gave you the training?
MR MATHABATHE: Linda Mntambo.
ADV SIGODI: Did he also inform you on the policies of the ANC?
MR MATHABATHE: When you're talking about the activities of the MK, you're actually talking about the policies of the ANC?
ADV SIGODI: Yes, I mean you also mentioned that you were also an ANC member, but as an MK person, one would expect that would have been to understand the political training of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you get political training as well as military training?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
ADV SIGODI: Were you aware that it was not ANC policy to rob?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
ADV SIGODI: So when you took the order at that time you were aware that it was not ANC policy?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathabathe I see from your application form you say that you were charged, Section 29 of 1982 of the Terrorism Act, was the armed robbery part of that charge?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were actually charged and convicted of the Fidelity Guard armed robbery and you were sentenced to 12 years imprisonment.
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you say you received, you've got in brackets here just (indemnified), did you receive indemnity in respect of that conviction?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it, when you applied for indemnity, was it specific to that conviction? It wasn't some sort of blanket type of indemnity?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct, for a specific robbery.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you were released from prison because of that indemnity?
MR MATHABATHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi any questions arising?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry. Perhaps it wasn't clear, but it may be that the witness Ms Mabusa referred to another occasion. I don't know whether there was another occasion where you handed money to Linda and the money was in a First National Bank Bag. Now I don't know whether such a bag could contain R76 000, or R70 000. Wasn't there an occasion when you handed a smaller amount of money to him and that he used that money to buy clothes and so on?
MR MATHABATHE: No, not at all.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You never handed money to him?
MR MATHABATHE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi any questions arising?
MR KOPEDI: Nothing arising, thanks Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat any questions arising?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mathabathe, that concludes your testimony. I think it might be an appropriate time, or do you think we should go through, I don't know if you ...
MR KOPEDI: I would ask Chairperson that we adjourn for the day.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR KOPEDI: I must mention that there is not much left, but I would ask that we adjourn.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was also thinking that because it is quite a long stretch for the translators, they've had quite a long stretch. Yes, what would be a convenient time to start tomorrow, bearing in mind, have you got some of the applicants still to come from ...
MR KOPEDI: Prison yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation there? What happened this morning? Will it be repeated? Well, hopefully not.
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, Mr Kopedi's got no more applicants after this.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean tomorrow. If we start at half past nine, is there any point in - will the applicants who are still in custody be here at that time?
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, I see Correctional Services over there.
CHAIRPERSON: Would it be possible to start at half past nine tomorrow? Perhaps you can ask him?
JUDGE DE JAGER: "Kan u miskien net bietjie vorentoe kom, asseblief?" Would it be possible to have Mr Mogapi here tomorrow morning at half past, ag Mr Ndlovu here tomorrow at half past nine? Probably a little earlier, say 9 o'clock, round about? Thank you so much.
CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient then to adjourn to half past nine tomorrow morning?
MR KOPEDI: Or 9, still better, if they can be here by nine, fine by us.
CHAIRPERSON: So what time do you want to start. Chris you're coming from Pretoria, what time do you want to start?
JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't mind. If I have to be here at nine, I'll be here at nine. ...(indistinct)
MS LOCKHAT: Nine is fine if it's with everybody, or 9.30 is even perfect if people are getting stuck in the traffic.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think let's try 9 o'clock. We can try that.
MS LOCKHAT: In order, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So that Ladies and Gentlemen brings us to the end of today's hearing. We will be adjourning this same hearing and then we'll hear others tomorrow as well or maybe another and we'll adjourn then until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning at the same venue, at this hall, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
