Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we want to start the proceedings. For the record today is Monday the 8th of November 1999. This is a session of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at the JISS Centre at Johannesburg. The panel is presided over by myself, Denzil Potgieter. With me on the panel are Messrs Sibanyoni and Lax. We will be hearing this morning the amnesty application of Mr L.E. Mohale, amnesty reference number is 3609/96. I am going to ask the respective representatives to place themselves on record. Mr Knopp on behalf of the applicant.

MR LAX: Would you just press the red button.

MR KNOPP: Adv H.A. Knopp, for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. For the - then unfortunately you've got to switch it off again, yes, it is fine.

Then for the next-of-kin, victims?

MS VILAKAZI: For the family of Josiah Namane, the deceased, it is Adv L.E. Vilakazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. And then the Leader of Evidence.

MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, appearing as the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Knopp, is there anything else that you want to put on record, or do you wish your client to be sworn in for his evidence to be presented?

MR KNOPP: To be sworn in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Mohale, what language do you prefer to give your evidence in? Can you just repeat, do you want to testify in English?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

LINDA ENOCH MOHALE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much. Mr Knopp?

EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, you are the applicant in this matter?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: What is your age now?

MR MOHALE: 31.

MR KNOPP: How old?

MR MOHALE: I am 31 years old. I am 31 years old.

MR KNOPP: Last year you were convicted in the High Court, Witwatersrand Local Division of certain criminal offences, is that correct?

MR MOHALE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: They comprise murder, attempted murder and unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition?

MR MOHALE: That is true.

MR KNOPP: The accumulative effective sentence for those offences is 25 years imprisonment?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Are you are busy serving out that sentence at the moment?

MR MOHALE: That is true.

MR KNOPP: It is in respect of those offences which you have applied for amnesty to this Committee?

MR MOHALE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, where did you grow up?

MR MOHALE: I grew up in Tembisa, Tembisa Kempton Park district.

MR KNOPP: Did you go to school there?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I did.

MR KNOPP: Up to what standard did you proceed in school?

MR MOHALE: When I left the country, I was doing standard 9. I completed, I did my matric in exile.

MR KNOPP: So, you went to school in Tembisa up to standard 9?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: At a certain stage of your life, did you become politically active?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I did.

MR KNOPP: What stage was that?

MR MOHALE: That was in 1986, 1985.

MR KNOPP: How old were you and were you still in school?

MR MOHALE: I was still at school.

MR KNOPP: What standard?

MR MOHALE: I don't recall I was at what standard at that time.

MR KNOPP: Was it towards the end of your school career?

MR MOHALE: Not necessarily.

MR KNOPP: Okay. How did you become politically active at school?

MR MOHALE: At school, I was involved with what you call Students Councils.

MR LAX: Sorry, could you just speak a little bit closer to the microphone. You became a bit indistinct there unfortunately, you wouldn't mind just repeating that.

MR MOHALE: At school we were organised by the then what you call Students Representative Council, SRC's. But I did not hold any position.

MR KNOPP: You became interested in political activities then?

MR MOHALE: That is true.

MR KNOPP: At a certain stage, did you become associated with the African National Congress?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I did.

MR KNOPP: What stage was that?

MR MOHALE: It was the same year, the same years, 1985, 1986, 1987. In 1987 I was elected to the Chairmanship position. That is in my area.

MR KNOPP: What position is that?

MR MOHALE: Chairman.

MR KNOPP: Of?

MR MOHALE: Of the ANC Youth League, local ANC Youth League in Tembisa, at my section, at my area, Ndulweni section.

MR KNOPP: How long did you serve as the Chairman?

MR MOHALE: I served as a Chairman for about two years, a period of about two years, that was prior my, that was before I left for exile.

ADV SIBANYONI: Excuse me, just one question, in 1987 your structure, did you call it the ANC Youth League or was it maybe the South African Youth Congress?

MR MOHALE: It was the ANC.

ADV SIBANYONI: ANC Youth League?

MR MOHALE: Yes, but at that time the local youth structure, it was TAYCO, Tembisa Youth Congress. That was TAYCO that time.

ADV SIBANYONI: Yes, in other words in public you didn't call yourselves the ANC Youth League, you just say Tembisa Youth Congress?

MR MOHALE: Yes, TAYCO.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Knopp.

MR KNOPP: What were the conditions like in your area during those two years, whilst you were the Chairman of the Tembisa Youth Congress?

MR MOHALE: Let's get facts straight, I did not say I was the Chairman of TAYCO, I was elected to a Chairmanship position in my area, in Ndulweni section.

MR KNOPP: Okay, what were the conditions like there, socially, politically, economically?

MR MOHALE: Socially the situation were chaotic, we often experienced violence in the area. We used to have in fact what you call confrontation with the then Constables, we used to call them "amajekeje" and normally the reason why we often got ourselves confronted with them, the problem with the rent issue. So they would often come to the location with disrespective attitude, evicting masses out of their houses with disrespect of moral ethics. So as such, the community local organised itself and the ANC local branch organised itself against such tyranny that was waged against our people locally. In short, we were fighting against the injustices of the order.

MR KNOPP: These Constables that you refer to, are they now Municipal Policemen?

MR MOHALE: Yes they were Municipal Police. Sometimes it was not necessarily Municipal Police alone, they would sometimes come in the company of the then SAP, South African Police.

MR KNOPP: How did it come about that you went into exile?

MR MOHALE: Whilst I was Chairman at that time, we - the situation got a bit tense and then as such I ended up harassed by police. That is the SAP. Then I got connected to MK structures inside the country, that was prior my leaving the country. How I got connected to MK structures, I got connected to MK structures through my brother-in-law, that is George Bila.

MR KNOPP: This George Bila, your brother-in-law, did he have any connections with the MK structures?

MR MOHALE: Well in as far as to how far or how deep he was connected to MK structures, I cannot tell, but I got connected to MK structures through my brother-in-law, George Bila. I was trained inside the country, that was prior, I received that inside, I would say internal training, that was prior my leaving the country, that was in 1987.

MR KNOPP: Where were you trained?

MR MOHALE: I got my military training formally in Angola.

MR KNOPP: Let's just pause there, where were you trained inside the country?

MR MOHALE: Where was I trained inside the country?

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: There was no specific area where we were trained inside the country. I was often given a crash course, that would happen, that was during our meetings. I was sort of shown how to manipulate handgrenades and other weaponry, more especially firearms.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: So there was no specific area as such where we were trained that was, that could be identified as an MK military base.

MR KNOPP: That was generally in the Tembisa area or ...

MR MOHALE: It was in Tembisa.

MR KNOPP: All right. When did you go into exile?

MR MOHALE: When?

MR KNOPP: Yes. Your microphone is off.

MR LAX: If that red light goes off, that means your microphone has gone off, so if you could just kindly keep an eye on it, thank you.

MR MOHALE: I went to - okay, all right. Could you please repeat your question.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, when did you go into exile?

MR MOHALE: In 1987, if I am not mistaken. That was late 1987.

MR KNOPP: Can you tell the Court about your time in exile?

MR MOHALE: I beg your pardon?

MR KNOPP: Can you tell this Tribunal about your time in exile?

MR MOHALE: All right. In exile, the first time when I left, I left the country through the western area, western part operational area, that is Ramapadla border in Botswana. In Botswana I was received by MK structures at Dukwe Training Centre. In fact, Dukwe was not a training centre as such, but it was a transit camp of MK. I stayed in Dukwe for not more than a period of four months and then we left as units of seven for Harare and then in Harare, we got transit, we were transited I mean to say to Zambia where I stayed at the place called Chaston. Chaston is another area in Zambia, that is Lusaka, that is one of the ANC or shall I say, base, transit base of the ANC. I stayed there at Chaston. It didn't take long, longer than should I say two months if I am not mistaken, and then later on we were transferred, or should I say units were transferred to Angola. In Angola I did my military training at Banie Mulokwana Training Centre, that is in the eastern part of Angola. The period of training was supposed to take the period of about six months, but due to our circumstances, we ended up, it ended up taking the period of about nine months. During training we did military combat work, that is MCW. We did political work, that is Philosophy and Political Sciences. I was trained in the use of firearms, I did Military Engineering, that is the use of explosives. I did Artillery and then we did Medical Aid, too. After which I was enlisted or should I say drafted for further specialisation where I specialised on the Courts of Wars. The Courts of Wars, it is a military term or should I say military saying, the common word it is Artillery. I did my specialisation on artillery. After which period our forces then left for the East, that was Tanzania. This was the period of in Namibia, Accord. Our forces in Angola were due to the moratorium which was reached, our forces were then made to leave Angola and that was in the interest of the people of Namibia. We left Angola on the Resolution 435. This was the period 1989 when we left Angola. That was late 1989, when our forces left Angola for Tanzania. In Tanzania I stayed in the camp and served in the Security structures of MK. After which later on I was drafted for civilian deployment under which I served under MK structures. That was this time in Dar Es Salaam, Dar Es Salaam is the capital town of Tanzania. In the offices of, in our offices I served as an Immigration Officer which falls under the Security structures of the movement, what you call PMC's, that is Political Military Councils. I served there as an Immigration Officer under the Security structures of the movement until the period 1991 after which a moratorium was communicated to the ANC community in Tanzania. People were briefed about their pending repatriation process, of which I was not an exception. I then left Tanzania for South Africa. I arrived inside the country in 1992.

MR KNOPP: Was that early in 1992?

MR MOHALE: Yes, that was early in 1992.

MR KNOPP: Where did you settle yourself?

MR MOHALE: On my arrival I settled myself with my brother-in-law, George Bila and my sister, who is married to my sister, Ethel Bila.

MR KNOPP: What area was that?

MR MOHALE: It was at Sedebing section, Tembisa.

MR KNOPP: Did you have any further connection with the ANC or MK after having arrived back in early 1992?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I did.

MR KNOPP: Would you tell the forum about that connection?

MR MOHALE: In 1992, when I arrived inside the country, as I made mention before that I stayed with my brother-in-law, apparently the situation was not rosy as such. I was introduced by my brother-in-law to Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe. Apparently I was supposed to meet them. These were the dignitaries, that is Champion or should I say facilitated by my brother-in-law, that I should meet with Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe, since they were the ones who were in charge of the underground MK structures locally in Tembisa. The first person I met it was Tabiso Radebe. He came at my brother-in-law's place and then I was introduced to him and I was told that he served, he was serving in the Ordinance Section, he was in fact responsible for the co-ordinating of operations inside the country and the overall activities of MK structures underground. That was the subterranean structures.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: Tabiso had the feeling that I was briefed to see about the overall situation inside the country and about the activities of the enemy inside the country and its proxies. I was briefed that our cadres were being assassinated and eliminated so that in a way, we did not come back in the country that was liberated. We came back in a country that was still continuing what it struggled for, for the liberation.

MR KNOPP: Can we just pause there, you made mention of proxies. Can you just elaborate on what you mean by proxies?

MR MOHALE: By proxies I mean the agents of the regime and their extended arm, that is the gangsterism and other activities of the enemy, that was continuing inside the country then.

MR KNOPP: Can you give some examples of such proxies?

MR MOHALE: Such proxies, people who were involved with the Council then, that is the old council and who were in fact carrying out the activities of the SSC, that is the State Security Council with all its structures, SACCO, LIW, GUAM, etc, etc.

MR KNOPP: What is SACCO?

MR MOHALE: SACCO is the South African Church Cultural Organisation. And then LIW, it is an abbreviation of the low intensity warfare and then GUAM it was one of the strategies which was then used by the enemy, it was what you call total strategies. These were part of (indistinct) structures, so apparently the enemy was spreading its tentacles very strongly to see to it that the ANC's activities inside the country, the ANC's organs were disorganised and that it had done all this, using its extended arm, or should I say Third Force, that was strongly functioning inside the country then.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, were there ...

MR MOHALE: These were the briefings, these were my briefings when I arrived inside the country, and then it was fact that since the situation was not favourable, more especially for the MK returnees, it was felt that I should get security.

MR LAX: You should what, sorry, I didn't hear what you were saying?

MR MOHALE: I should get security.

MR LAX: Get ...?

MR MOHALE: Protection.

MR LAX: You should get protection?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Who suggested that you should get protection?

MR MOHALE: It was Tabiso.

MR KNOPP: Is that Mr Tabiso Radebe?

MR MOHALE: Yes, Mr Tabiso Radebe.

MR KNOPP: That you mentioned previously?

MR MOHALE: Yes. Can I carry on?

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: But then apparently Tabiso could not provide any protection without necessarily co-ordinating that with his superior. I was briefed by him. Apparently arrangements were made that I should get a firearm. It was not long when I met Patrick Thwala. He in fact confirmed and he had the very same feeling that my security should be a priority. In fact, not my security as such, but the security of other MK cadres too. Then he confirmed that he had arranged with Tabiso Radebe and apparently an AK47, not an AK47 but Stechkin would be arranged.

MR KNOPP: What is a Stechkin?

MR MOHALE: Stechkin is a gun.

MR KNOPP: Is it a small gun?

MR MOHALE: It is a small gun.

MR KNOPP: A pistol?

MR MOHALE: A pistol, which is 20 shooter.

MR KNOPP: Yes?

MR MOHALE: And then it was brought to me by Tabiso Radebe.

MR KNOPP: Ammunition?

MR MOHALE: And ammunition. Can I carry on?

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: So then among the activities, I was then instructed that among the activities which I was supposed to have carried on, it was the training of the SDU's, that is inside the country.

MR KNOPP: What is an SDU?

MR MOHALE: SDU's are the Self Defence Units.

MR KNOPP: Yes?

MR MOHALE: The reason why it was because the enemy inside the country was still working very strongly and apparently we were often, the community was often subject to attacks. It was then felt that the situation needs to be curbed. This was the resolution taken by the movement, because apparently the National Peace Accord that was signed by the movement, that was in 1992, was in favour of people organising themselves in units or community units to protect themselves. The structures of the regime, at that time, apparently were not at the service of the people, and the old arm itself, were not at the service of the people as such, so I did that training, that is organising the Self Defence Units, after which it wasn't very long I was approached by Tabiso Radebe. I was briefed about the late Rev Namane, may his soul rest in peace.

MR KNOPP: That is one of the victims?

MR MOHALE: That is one of the victims.

MR KNOPP: Did you know this victim before you were approached by Mr Radebe about him?

MR MOHALE: No, in fact ever since I had arrived inside the country, the very same year, 1992, I had never met with the late Rev Namane. The first time I heard about his name, is when it was mentioned by Tabiso Radebe to me.

MR KNOPP: So this victim was a complete stranger to you?

MR MOHALE: He was in fact a complete stranger to me, I had never seen him before.

MR KNOPP: You had no personal problems with him?

MR MOHALE: I had no personal problems with him. Can I carry on?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR MOHALE: To track back a bit, during the training of these SDU's, I was always accountable to Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe and in most cases Tabiso Radebe was the one who was liaising the whole operation, the operatives, if I may put it in that way, that is in Tembisa. He was liaising the whole operation including weaponry. Coming back to Mr Namane's case, the briefings were that Mr Namane had apparently become a problem in the ANC structures, that is local structures in Tembisa. He had done all that in collaboration with the Council, that is the old council.

MR KNOPP: The proxies?

MR MOHALE: The proxies. So apparently the briefings were that whatever progress, what ever progress, should I say meeting, structural meeting of the ANC, Namane was always negative and in fact he gave no room as such, he was causing disunity, that is within the ANC local structure, that is whenever the ANC sits, the briefings were that Mr Namane was always there to see that nothing of the ANC or whatever progress made by the ANC inside the country, he was always there to see to it that such programmes or progress was impeded.

MR KNOPP: Can we just pause there?

MR MOHALE: The briefings, to be clear enough, he had become troublesome and apparently arrangements were made to try and reason with him, that is according to the briefings and he had in fact become obdurate, that is (indistinct) to whatever approach made by the ANC or whatever arrangement by our ANC local structures. So as such ...

ADV SIBANYONI: Can I just ask you a question while you are still at this stage, while you are describing, in what way was he problematic? Mr Namane, was he a member of any political organisation, was he affiliated to any political organisation?

MR MOHALE: All right, thank you very much. He was affiliated with the old councils.

ADV SIBANYONI: Was he a member or was he a supporter?

MR MOHALE: He was a member and in fact he was involved structurally with the old council very strongly and apparently his mission in the local ANC structures, was to see to it that nothing so far succeed, that was arranged by the ANC.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, you also say Rev Namane, was he a minister of religion, a pastor?

MR MOHALE: Well, by that time, I didn't know that he was a reverend. Namane was introduced to me as Mr Namane, not as Rev Namane.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may just interpose. You said two things which seem strange to me. You said he was working within the ANC and trying to cause disunity within the ANC, did I hear you correctly?

MR MOHALE: That was my briefings.

MR LAX: So, your briefings were that this was an ANC member who was somehow or other causing problems in the ANC?

MR MOHALE: No, no. He was not an ANC member, he was a person who had become problematic in the ANC structure, that is whenever the ANC sits in local meetings, you must understand that our meetings locally when the ANC arrange meetings, or should I say political gatherings, people are not expected to produce membership cards. Everybody is welcome as the ANC is the national liberation movement. It was during these meetings that Mr Namane had become problematic and in fact he was not, he had not shown any positive attitude and as such he had done that in corroboration with the old councils.

MR LAX: Yes. And this is just part of your briefing, you don't have any first-hand knowledge of this?

MR MOHALE: Any?

MR LAX: First-hand knowledge of this?

MR MOHALE: Those were my briefings, my instructions from the people who received me inside the country.

MR LAX: Precisely. So you were just told "this man is a problem and he is disrupting ANC activities", but other than attending meetings and causing problems at meetings, you don't know of anything else that he may have done?

MR MOHALE: I never attended any meetings that was attended by Mr Namane. As I made mention, before that, I had never seen him before.

MR LAX: Yes, I heard that.

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: All I am trying to understand is here is a man who is problematic and the nature of that problematic behaviour is that he is disrupting meetings or he is being negative in meetings?

MR MOHALE: He does more than that.

MR LAX: Well, that is what we are trying to get from you.

MR MOHALE: It was more than that.

MR LAX: Well, then give us the detail so that we can understand what his negative behaviour was.

MR MOHALE: Negative behaviour involve destabilising of the structural organs of the movement locally.

MR LAX: Yes, you have said that before, please understand me, I am trying to understand the specifics of what you were briefed, not the generalities. Destabilising means nothing to me, what behaviour of his amounted to destabilising? What did he actually do, generalities don't help me to understand your briefing?

MR MOHALE: Yes, that is, okay to get factually, he had arranged - in that apparently according to my briefing, he was causing despondency.

MR LAX: He was causing ...?

MR MOHALE: Despondency. Perpetuating division of which is a grave concern in the movement, in fact it amounts to enemy act.

MR LAX: Okay, carry on please.

MR MOHALE: All right. Apparently this thing did not start in 1992, according to the briefings, seemingly it had a long history and apparently our MK structures had then decided that Mr Namane should be eliminated, that is removed. Can I carry on?

ADV SIBANYONI: Yes.

MR MOHALE: The instructions were that an AK47 would be ... (tape ends) ... and Patrick Thwala confirmed that. He had received that briefings, that apparently I had been told about that mission and an AK47 will be arranged. It wasn't very long, I cannot be specific with time as to say or days, it wasn't very long, he came at my place, that is my brother-in-law's place, it was during the night, he had a little chat with my brother-in-law and then apparently I was informed that he had arranged with my brother-in-law that we should do his transport. We left, we went into a certain area in Tembisa at a section, that is (indistinct) section. We were driving in a Cressida, driven by my brother-in-law. We were three in the car. On arrival at the place ...

MR KNOPP: Is that Sedibeng Section?

MR MOHALE: No, not Sedibeng Section, (indistinct) Section. We got off the car, went inside the house. My brother-in-law was left inside the car. We went into the back rooms of the house, there we met with one MK operative who was also introduced to me and I was introduced to him as an MK operative and MK cadre. Then apparently this MK operative chap, he had been briefed, he knew about the operation and apparently he was told immediately that we had come to collect an AK47. I think there was more than, there was six, seven AK47's under the bedroom, in that house, but he only retrieved one AK47, of which it was granted to Mr Tabiso Radebe, it was put in the bag. We then left the house. We got into the car, of we went back home, but before we arrived home, we had to leave, to drop Mr Tabiso Radebe at his place. Then we passed, we went for our place, that is (indistinct) section, at my brother-in-law's place. On arrival there I took an AK47 and I put that safe. The following day Tabiso arrived and then apparently he made a brief account and we had to go to Namane's place because in a way, apparently I didn't know or should I say I didn't know where Mr Namane stayed.

MR KNOPP: You have never been to his house before, ever?

MR MOHALE: I beg your pardon?

MR KNOPP: You had never been to the victim's house before?

MR MOHALE: No, no, this time, I had never been there. I had not gone there, to say. So we took a car, off we went. That was during the day and then I was shown Mr Namane's house.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is we, just to assist me there? Who is we?

MR MOHALE: Pardon?

MR LAX: Who is we? You said we took a car, who is we?

MR MOHALE: It was I and Tabiso Radebe. We took a car, we arrived at Mr Namane's place, I was shown the number, that was the house where he stays, that was number 174 if my memory still recalls well.

MR KNOPP: It is not 157 Sedebing Section?

MR MOHALE: It is 174, I don't know if I am mistaken there, it is Sedebing Section.

MR KNOPP: Yes?

MR MOHALE: We passed the house, off we went and then there and there I had to carry on tracing his movements, but apparently I could not trace his movement, I was briefed that the only way to trace him, was through getting inside the house. I was also given the legend that apparently his work with the Councils involved helping people or should I say assisting people with houses, locally that is in Tembisa. Was briefed that the proper legend to use, that is in getting through him, I had to use the legend that in fact I was in a crisis of, I was in fact in a housing crisis, and I wanted him to help me organise accommodation.

MR KNOPP: Accommodation?

MR MOHALE: That was the legend during the briefings and this legend, I was provided by Tabiso Radebe. One day, it was during the day if I am not mistaken, as part of the mission, the mission instructions, I went to Mr Namane's place, it was during the day. To my intentions was to get inside the house and carry on the mission, but apparently the house's windows were closed, so I had surmised that probably at that time of the day, there could not be any person, more especially because it was during the day and it was hot, so surely I could not expect that at that - should I say - hot weather, anybody would sit inside the house and close the windows. So I then decided that the best thing, I would pass and come back later on. I left the house and then later on in the evening, I arrived at the place. I knocked at the door and I was warmly welcomed inside the house. I got inside, it was before I sat down and then a lady came, in fact from the kitchen. There were two children sitting watching TV, that is television. The lady wanted to know if she could help. I then related to her that in fact I wanted to see Mr Namane. Then the lady inside the house added that, in fact she told me that Mr Namane could not be found, he had gone somewhere but apparently she could not leave a message. I then left a message that could she please tell him that somebody had come to see him. I then left the house, it wasn't a long period and this whole operation when I was carrying it out, I was taking my briefings to Tabiso Radebe who was liaising the whole operation with Mr Patrick Thwala. During that period, another instruction emanated, that was prior to the elimination of Mr Namane. As I was trying to get hold of Mr Namane.

MR KNOPP: Are you referring now to another mission, a separate mission?

MR MOHALE: Yes, a separate mission.

MR KNOPP: What was that other mission that you referred to?

MR MOHALE: That was the mission which was supposed to, in fact it had not to do with CID Sithole. The Criminal Investigation Officer, CID Sithole.

MR KNOPP: Was Sithole a member of the South African Police Services at that time, the South African Police?

MR MOHALE: Yes, he was a member of the South African Services.

MR KNOPP: A Detective?

MR MOHALE: Well, CID, I don't know whether he was a Detective, but he was a CID. I don't know the functioning of the SAP.

MR KNOPP: Did you know ...

MR MOHALE: I only knew its horrible activities.

MR KNOPP: Did you know Sithole personally or not?

MR MOHALE: Apparently I didn't know Sithole, he was shown to me by Mr Tabiso Radebe.

MR KNOPP: What was your mission supposed to be in relation to Sithole?

MR MOHALE: Apparently Mr Sithole, he was supposed to be eliminated, he had a history, apparently our comrades, many of our comrades if I may put it in that way, were brutally manhandled by him, that was the period during the period of detention period, and according to the briefings, he too was supposed to be eliminated. These briefings came up whilst I was busy with the mission of Rev Namane. Then one day I went to Mr Namane's place, I was with one of our underground operatives, Mr - I don't know his name, I don't know his surname I mean to say, but it is Morena. He belongs to the SDU's. I went with him to Mr Namane's place, it was during the night. I am not sure about the time, I think it was about after eight o'clock if my memory, because I didn't check the time as such, it was about after eight. I did as I did before, I knocked at the door and I was warmly welcomed by him, Mr Namane. Apparently he was sitting at the dining room, watching TV and then there were, this time again, there were two kids, two children watching a TV programme. I introduced myself so him, but not using my proper name.

MR KNOPP: What name did you use?

MR MOHALE: I don't recall the name that I used, but surely I didn't use my real name.

MR KNOPP: Was the other name part of your legend?

MR MOHALE: It was part of my legend, yes. I introduced myself to him that in fact he must have got the message from the lady that was in the house at the time when I visited the area previously and in fact he confirmed that, he did get the message. He was in fact surprised, because apparently he had not had an appointment with anybody that day, but he had nevertheless decided that he would wait until such time that particular person comes back. In a way he was happy that I had come, I had finally come, because he wanted in fact to see me. He had been in fact expecting that that particular person would come back again. I then embarked immediately on a legend, that was the legend that I was given. I told him that in fact I had an accommodation crisis and somebody had instructed me or should I say advised me, to come and seek an assistance to him, because apparently he was strongly involved with the Council and among the things that he was involved with, it was arranging houses or helping people with houses. His attitude was quite calm and he was very keen to assist. He then confirmed to me that surely he is involved with housing and he could be of assistance, that is of great assistance. He even went to the extent of arranging for some plans, he even left the dining room where we were sitting, he went somewhere in the house, in the other room in the house, when he came back, he had some plans, some housing plans with him. That confirmed my instructions that I was given by my Commanders. He then asked how much could I afford and in a way if at all, I have cash, he could arrange that I get an accommodation without necessarily any waste of time. I told him that apparently I could afford only R25 000-00 cash and then the other payment I would do later on. He then hinted to me that if at all I could afford that amount, then he could arrange that I can get that house without necessarily paying any further amount, but provided I pay that R25 000-00 cash. He then had the plans placed on the table, displayed vividly and I had to choose the type of housing of preference to me. This I did through his advice, that is according to housing prices and all that. But then this whole time my mind was not there, was not necessarily there in the plans, in the housing plans and all that. What was in my mind at that time, it was the instructions. The instructions were clear, it was that Mr Namane should be eliminated. This whole process of, the legend process, it shouldn't have in fact taken the period that it had taken, but something that, it was in fact a disturbance because apparently with those two kids in that house, watching TV in front of us, honestly this could have dealt trauma with the kids. I could not carry on the mission with the presence of the kids. This whole thing of the legend process, in fact it was made, it was protracted as a result of the kids that were inside the house there. I had two minds, should I carry on the mission, should I not carry on the mission? But then because of I was so mindful of the presence of the kids. But it was as if Mr Namane had this feeling in him because he finally subsequently if I may put it in that way, arranged for the kids to go to sleep. He in fact told them that they had to go to sleep. I remember he said something to the kids and apparently they stood up off the dining room where we were sitting. To retract a bit, a bit, a little bit I mean to say, at the time when I was inside the house, I was not alone. I was in the company of Morena. I made mention of his name before. We had left, we had parked the car about five houses from the house of Mr Namane. I decided that it would be unprofessional to use an AK47 at one person. The AK47 that were in fact entrusted to me that I should carry with it the mission, to eliminate Rev Namane, I had resolved that that AK47, I won't be using it, but in fact I would use instead a Stechkin, which were also entrusted to me by Tabiso Radebe.

MR KNOPP: Is that the Stechkin, small arms pistol?

MR MOHALE: That is the small arms pistol.

MR KNOPP: Which was issued to you earlier?

MR MOHALE: Earlier, yes. So I had resolved that I won't be using the AK47, but according to the mission, I was supposed to have used, or I was supposed to use an AK47. As we were sitting there and with the kids having left the sitting room, or should I say dining room or sitting room, I don't remember whether it is a sitting room, but surely we were in a sitting room or dining room, I then stood up and told Mr Namane that in fact I would come as arranged, then we would finalise the whole issue about the price of the house. He then stood up, but before I left the house, he wanted my particulars. I had to leave my particulars behind. The reason why he wanted my particulars, he had the feeling that maybe I might have a problem or maybe not appear at a later stage, so he wanted that if suppose I don't appear at a later stage, he could call me or should I say consult with me telephonically. I left my particulars, but again, these were not true particulars. I left my name, I left a telephone number. That telephone number too, was doctored. As we went out, this time we were not on the verandah, Mr Namane in fact actually expected a handshake so that we could part warmly, but then what he received, it is not what he actually expected, because he had expected my handshake, but that was when I produced the Stechkin, the pistol. In fact I produced the pistol when I was just turning around, at the moment when he was expecting that handshake, but then that handshake was in fact, was in fact the end of his life. I had three shots pumped in his body, but then I want to put it to this Commission that Mr Namane did not die a silenced death. I still remember his last words, his last words was "Tusan", he made a very loud call when these three shots were pumped on him. He made a very loud call, he said very loudly "Tusan" and the whole thing happened so fast and I wasn't myself either. My conscience was devastated and then I left the house, that is together, myself and Morena. We went into the car and then off, we left the area. On arrival home, I parked the car and apparently what I am talking about the car, that is the car that is owned by my brother-in-law, the Cressida. Apparently he didn't have any knowledge of the whereabouts of the car that night. But as usual, I had the access of the car as I was assisting with domestic work, that is the transportation of children to school and other errands. I don't remember whether about two, three days passed if I am not mistaken, then Mr Patrick Thwala came to my place where I was staying. In fact if my memory still reminds me well, that was after the day, the following day after I shot Mr Namane, the late Mr Namane. He came, he had with him a newspaper. In fact militarily I was the one who should have accounted about the whole mission, but before I could do that, the Commander, Mr Patrick Thwala, he is the one who in fact did the debrief to me. He came, he had with him a newspaper that is the local newspaper, Tembisen, and apparently he was very furious, he was very angry, he was not in a rosy mood. Apparently he had on the bleeper, he got the bleeper and he had apparently the paper, and on the paper I mean to say, it was Mr Namane's report, it was the report about or should I say the article about Mr Namane's shooting. Apparently according to the paper and according to Patrick Thwala, Mr Namane had survived and he didn't like the idea, he was very furious. He then said that he heard that Mr Namane had been taken to hospital, apparently he was struggling for his life and then in a way, I would have to be removed outside Tembisa, that was outside Johannesburg for underground purposes. Meanwhile he, Patrick Thwala, will be assessing the situation with our structures, that is MK structures in Tembisa, ANC local structures in Tembisa. By local structures, this time he meant the underground structures. They will be assessing if Mr Namane did recuperate, that is in hospital and if need be, another cadre will be found so that he could be finished off whilst in hospital. But in the meantime, I had to be removed outside Tembisa. According to him, he would arrange with Tabiso so that arrangement of my removal from Tembisa would be arranged. It wasn't very long, in that period, that was prior my removal from Tembisa, by removal in this instance he meant I mean that I should go underground at Mpumalanga, the now Mpumalanga, then it was kwaNdebele, that is kwaMshangu. It was during this short period that I met with Mr Alli Tleane.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, before we go into the next instance, can we just tie up some loose ends here. The date of this instance as given in the High Court, was the 25th of June 1992, you are not disputing that date?

MR MOHALE: I am not disputing that, but in a way I was not writing anything down. It was brought to me that the action for the incidents took place on the 25th of June, that is June or July?

MR KNOPP: June.

MR MOHALE: June, yes.

MR KNOPP: 1992.

MR MOHALE: I don't dispute that.

MR KNOPP: Yes, and this victim eventually died in hospital?

MR MOHALE: Eventually he died.

MR KNOPP: Right.

MR MOHALE: Could I please just carry on.

MR KNOPP: Just one other thing. You mentioned the Sithole incident, the Sithole mission, can we just round that off.

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Is it so that that mission never came about, was unsuccessful?

MR MOHALE: Yes, the mission of Mr Sithole was unsuccessful. The reason why it was unsuccessful, it was because apparently when I arrived inside the country, Tabiso Radebe was attending a case, he was actually on bail, so he was attending a case, so it turned out that during that period, his case was heard and apparently he was convicted to imprisonment, so the mission could not carry on, because apparently Patrick Thwala was more concerned about my removal from Tembisa, that I should be at the underground, that is at kwaNdebele area. The mission of Mr Sithole was a failure in that regard. Could I please carry on?

ADV SIBANYONI: Could I ask you one question on that?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

ADV SIBANYONI: Was Mr Sithole in any way connected with investigating the case against Tabiso Radebe?

MR MOHALE: Well, I can't honestly tell, but what, according to my briefings, he had this notorious history of manhandling our comrades, that is during detention periods, so his actions against our comrades during detentions, were viewed aggressive. Apparently the mission was all about that, that he should be eliminated and gotten rid of.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knopp, does that round off the two incidents? Were you intending to get to the next one, because if so, then I am going to take a brief adjournment?

MR KNOPP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MOHALE: Could I please just say something? The first incident is not yet over.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that now the matter of Mr Namane?

MR MOHALE: Mr Namane's case, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There is still something else that you want to add about that?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, add that because once you have done with that, we are going to take just a brief, a short adjournment. Tell us what remains.

MR MOHALE: All right, fine. What remains is that an arrangement was made and then Mr Tabiso Radebe arranged that I go, I leave the area for underground purposes. Then he came with somebody by the name of Mr Mabena, he is a comrade and he was also involved with the local ANC structures, that was Mr Mabena. They came, I was then taken to kwaNdebele where I stayed with Vilapi, which I don't recall his name, but in fact Vilapi was not in fact the actual contact. The actual contact was supposed to be Mr Ephraim Mogale. Mr Ephraim Mogale is an activist of the ANC, he was an activist of the ANC at that period, I don't know now, of the ANC at kwaMshangu, kwaNdebele area. Mr Mabena and Mr Tabiso Radebe, they left me at Vilapi's house and Vilapi's house was briefed that my staying there could be only for a period of, until the time when Mr Ephraim Mogale would arrive and take me because Mr Ephraim Mogale was the actual contact. We slept at Mr Vilapi's place and Tabiso, that is Tabiso Radebe left with Mr Mabena for Tembisa. This was the period when he was still attending his case. Then later on in the morning, Mr Ephraim Mogale came and then he had a chat, he had a chat with Vilapi and in fact he wanted me on his side because apparently I was the actual, I was his actual contact. I was, I stayed, he took me for, to stay with him and all this time, I stayed for quite some period, the period that I cannot specify and in the process, I would go down to Tembisa and coming back, meanwhile all the time I was staying with Mr Ephraim Mogale and the other comrade in kwaMshangu, during the period. In fact if the Commission wouldn't mind in a way to recall Mr Ephraim Mogale before this Commission to give even the evidence in as to whether did I really or was I really handed to him at the underground as my actual contact, by the Tembisa structures, MK structures, then surely he would not dispute that. If Mr Vilapi could also be contacted, if the comrade could be kind enough to be offered assistance to the Commission, that this comrade could be traced and have them arranged for the appearance before this Commission, that would confirm my evidence before this Commission, that surely the structures in Tembisa did bring me, or should I say brought me to kwaNdebele for underground purposes. The structures at kwaNdebele were briefed, they knew about the reasons or the purpose of my underground use.

ADV SIBANYONI: But nobody is disputing that, isn't that so Mr Mohale? Nobody is challenging that at a certain stage you were taken to kwaNdebele for hiding, let me put it that way?

MR MOHALE: I have not heard of anybody disputing that.

ADV SIBANYONI: Yes. Thank you.

MR MOHALE: All right, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the evidence about the Namane matter?

MR MOHALE: Yes, that ends the evidence about Mr Namane, but however, I want to put it to the Commission that what is disputed in this case, is that I was given instructions. Yes, indeed, I was given instructions and that is disputed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we don't need ... (tape ends) ... just give us your evidence.

MR MOHALE: All right, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: And we will see what is really in dispute.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, we will take a brief adjournment at this stage. We will reconvene in 15 minutes' time at twelve o'clock, we are adjourned.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

LINDA ENOCH MOHALE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp?

EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: (continued) Mr Mohale, could we carry on now to the attempted murder instance of the victim Samuel Mandla Songo. The date for that instance is given as 26th of August 1992.

MR MOHALE: Yes. I met Alli Tleane in 1992. I repeat I met Alli Tleane in 1992, we met at Tembi Shopping Centre in Tembisa. They were attending a meeting, a SANCO meeting.

MR KNOPP: What does SANCO stand for?

MR MOHALE: SANCO stands for South African National Civic Organisation.

MR KNOPP: Yes?

MR MOHALE: I met him at Tembi Shopping Centre, that is Alli Tleane, I had gone to Tembi to fetch my brother-in-law, that is George Bila who was also in the Executive Committee of SANCO. SANCO that is our alliance, that is the ANC alliance. He was introduced to me by my brother-in-law, George Bila. We were not alone in the car, we were with other comrades too, who were attending the meeting on that particular day. It was late in the evening, though I cannot really specify as to what time was it. We went to his place in that evening, that very evening. Apparently we dropped him, we left him in his house as we had done with the other comrades who had attended the meeting. During this period, that was the period after Mr Namane was eliminated. In other words I met Alli Tleane after Mr Namane was eliminated. That was during the period when the structures, our MK structures were busy arranging for my removal inside Tembisa to kwaNdebele area. After we had dropped him, we had not met again, that is my underground purposes were immediately effected, that was I think I have related that, that was when we went to kwaNdebele and all that.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: As I was in kwaNdebele, during that period, I would travel down to Tembisa and back to kwaNdebele. This whole period consulting with Mr Patrick Thwala as I was arranging for, I had troubles in fact at the underground about my logistic support, because apparently Mr Ephraim Mogale, the comrade who was supposed to cater for my survival, for my living at the underground, he had a problem himself, because he had not been compensated with logistic support, so apparently he had a complain himself that the structures in Tembisa, that is our MK structures in Tembisa, he meant Patrick Thwala, that they were not co-ordinating anything so apparently we had a logistical problem, so I would often go down to Tembisa, to have a brief with Mr Patrick Thwala about the conditions at the underground. So during this period, I was also meeting other comrades because sometimes I would have a problem to return back to kwaNdebele, I mean a financial problem as such. I would go to comrade, comrade would donate R2-00, R5-00, depending on the person's capability. During this period of consulting with comrade, I had also consulted, I would also consult Mr Alli Tleane. It happened that in that meeting, as I was consulting, Mr Alli Tleane, he had something to say to me, as he knew me, as I was introduced to him as an MK cadre. In a way our structures inside Tembisa with those of SANCO structures, we were working co-operatively in harmony, politically and civic wise. As I was consulting with Mr Alli Tleane, he brought this issue up that "listen Mr Mohale, apparently we are having a problem, we are experiencing a problem at Ivory Park", a problem, it had more to do with Ivory Park. And then the name of Mr Songo, he mentioned the name of Mr Songo, because he actually asked do I know Mr Songo. Apparently I had difficulty in recalling his name, but finally I did recall the name, because Mr Songo was once my teacher, my Maths teacher at school. I told him that no, in fact - I related to him that "listen, I know Mr Songo and what is it that he is doing at Ivory Park". He then brought the issue that apparently our structures in Ivory Park, that is the ANC structures in Ivory Park they are in jeopardy, the reason why they were in jeopardy, it was because of Songo and his proxies. They are involved there in Ivory Park and then apparently our structures as a movement, of the ANC, cannot function well. Apparently SANCO was in the move to facilitate or should I say to put in place the ANC structures at Ivory Park, but the likes of Songo, they were there continuing the programmes of the old Councils, that is that of subversive activities, to see to it that nothing of the ANC structures, and SANCO structures, should in any way take place in that area. Apparently according to his instruction, Mr Alli Tleane was that the feeling had gone to the extent that our structures are frustrated and as such, the movement has resolved, that is the local SANCO structures in Tembisa and ANC structures, that they have resolved that Mr Songo should be eliminated. He has gone beyond boundary. This time he was putting this to me and apparently he wanted me to be the one who would carry out the operation and apparently, according to him, my name did feature, the did arrange in fact and he had arranged this with the structures, that there is a cadre who could carry on this operation. In that period I didn't necessarily dwell much on that, I told them that "listen, cannot this matter be resolved the other way around", but then the same answer came up. He even said that apparently the likes of Songo, they could not be talked to. They do as they please and they are loyal to their old bosses. However, I told them that "listen, who would consult and all that, but in a way I will hear from you how the structure would go about resolving these problems". In any way, I wouldn't as such embark on anything right now. I left him and I told him that I would consult with him later, probably I would hear from him what is the position of the movement and what is it that they would have gone through the period when I would be away, that is continuing with the likes of Songo in Ivory Park. I left for kwaNdebele and this period I was still staying with Ephraim Mogale and before I leave the area, I would always consult with Patrick Thwala and make him know that I am around and in a way, I would be leaving, because in a way Patrick Thwala, he didn't like the idea of me being around in Tembisa. But then due to the logistic circumstances in kwaNdebele, I would always go down and consult with the structures in Tembisa. That is when this issue of Mr Songo was brought up to me by Mr Alli Tleane. Apparently during these underground purposes, my underground, that is Self Defence Unit training, my training of Self Defence Unit locally, were in a way disturbed and all that, but in a way other cadres were continuing with the revolutionary task. It wasn't long, I came back, I went to see Patrick Thwala. Again the complain, it was the very same complaint, because apparently I had left Tembisa and they had done nothing with the logistic situation at the underground. I came down to Tembisa, I met with Patrick Thwala and then apparently he was very concerned about my membership in the ANC because since I had arrived, that is I have returned inside the country from exile, I had not reinstated my membership position. He even arranged that I should get an ANC membership because ever since I had returned inside the country, I had not renewed my ANC membership. He even arranged for cash, it was a loose R12-00, because that time the membership of the ANC was R12-00, that time in 1992. But then he did this again with the concern that I shouldn't be in Tembisa. He would arrange that the logistic problem or the money problem at the underground, could be fixed. During this period, after I had left Patrick Thwala's office, that is our office in Tembisa, Tembi Shopping Centre, that is where our offices are established, I left our offices, I went to see my brother-in-law and other comrades, then I went to Mr Alli Tleane's place. This whole time I was meeting with Alli Tleane singly, that is it was myself and him. Then this thing of Mr Songo was brought up again and then apparently according to Mr Tleane, the structures in Tembisa, our structures, that is ANC SANCO structures, that is the Executive in this regard, had approved and in fact mandated him that he would be in charge of this operation and that I should carry it on. As he confirmed the instructions, that "Chief instructions should be carried on, and as speedily as possible". I didn't have a qualm as such, I trusted Alli Tleane, he was a leader, he is still my leader, just as I trusted other leaders too, Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe. I didn't expect that in any way, they would do things the other way around, so I trusted Alli. At that time Alli was the President of TRA, Tembisa Residents Association. I trusted Alli and in a way I didn't think that he would in any way betray the course of the revolution. I carried on the orders, but then I made it clear to him that "listen Alli, then the structures would have to organise a transport because the operation, it would involve surveying, reconnoitring and all that". Alli didn't have a problem, he said that he would organise with the structures, that the car should be arranged, brought and made use of. Then during that time, I was supposed to leave the area, and according to Patrick Thwala, I was supposed to have left the area by then. But then I stuck around as Alli was busy arranging for a transport.

MR LAX: If I may just interpose, how long did that take?

MR MOHALE: Really, I cannot really tell the time, the period.

MR LAX: Was it a couple of days, was it weeks?

MR MOHALE: I think it was about a couple of days, week, not weeks, week.

MR LAX: Not more than a week?

MR MOHALE: I cannot really specify.

MR LAX: But it wasn't a few hours?

MR MOHALE: Of course, it wasn't a few hours. He made arrangements that we should actually meet, to be specific enough, this second period, that is when I went to Alli Tleane, I was not alone. That is the second period, but the first time when I met him, he was alone, but the second period, I was together with one SDU operative, that is Ashley Sesing, Ashley Sesing.

MR KNOPP: That Ashley Sesing was a State witness in the criminal trial, is that correct?

MR MOHALE: Yes, he was a State witness in the criminal trial.

MR KNOPP: And is it also correct that the High Court granted him indemnity in terms of Section 205 of the Criminal Procedure Act, after he had finished his evidence?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: All right.

MR MOHALE: I was with Ashley Sesing and Alli, apparently he had a problem in the event of relaying the whole instruction in the presence of Ashley Sesing. He hinted to me that couldn't we possibly arrange that we excuse Ashley Sesing so that he could brief me about the final resolutions which were taken by our local structures. I just said to him "listen, you shouldn't have a problem with Ashley, in fact he is one of our operatives in the SDU structures, that is community structures, and in a way you should feel free to relay whatever is possible, I trusted Ashley, he was more like a right hand man to me." Alli Tleane didn't seem to have a problem with that, he actually agreed that he would then, if I trust Ashley as one of the operatives, my operatives, he would surely go on with the instructions. Indeed he did carry on with the instructions, he made these instructions that I told the Commission earlier on. He did confirm it in front, in the presence of Ashley. The mission and the operation to eliminate Mr Songo and when the issue of the car was raised, that is on that particular day, Ashley Sesing was there. It was arranged that, in fact Alli arranged that we should meet at Tembi Shopping Centre, that is a centre in Tembisa, this is where our ANC offices, and the SANCO offices are. Indeed I went to Tembi Shopping Centre, that was on Friday, on that very same week. At Tembi I met Alli and he was with Mr Mahlo. I was introduced to Mr Mahlo and he was briefed about my background with the ANC, MK and he was also told that I would be the one who would be driving the car. But then again it turned out that Mr Alli Tleane did not put facts straight to Mr Mahlo. I mean the legend he used in borrowing the car, he had used legend in borrowing the car instead of putting facts straight. The keys were given to Mr Alli Tleane and then in return Mr Alli Tleane handed the keys to me, and then we got into the car, we went to drop Mr Mahlo at his place and later on, we came back at Alli's place. That was together, it was now myself and Alli Tleane, this was the period after we had dropped Mr Mahlo at his place. The car, it was, the car I was driving in, it was a Tredia, KTB153T registration. It was brown in colour if my memory still reminds me well about the registration. On arrival at Alli's place, he had the particulars of Mr Songo, I arranged with him, he gave me the addresses of Mr Songo, apparently I didn't know where Mr Songo was staying. It turned out that he was staying somewhere at Hospital View, Tembisa. I left Mr Alli's place as instructed, I went to see Ashley and I debriefed him about the whole operation as he knew, since he was present during the briefings, that is when the instructions were issued. I told him that Ashley, the operation is on and it will carry on according to the instructions as you have heard from the horse's mouth, that is Mr Tleane. And so he would have to assist me with the whereabouts as I was given the particulars of Mr Songo, the address and all that. Ashley didn't have a problem with that. He complied that he as an operative, he would assist in tracing, tracking down, the house number of Mr Songo as he was quite familiar with the area around Tembisa. I mean I was from exile, so I had a problem with locating addresses and all that. I was still freshly inside the country, adapting. I had engaged Ashley's services as an operative to see to it that he does indeed help me with locating the area, I mean the house number. I went with Ashley, we were driving the very same car, that is the Tredia. It didn't take long, within minutes Ashley had shown me Mr Songo's house and indeed I confirmed the details as provided to me by Mr Alli Tleane, the number was exact and then we had to start from there, that is now tracking Mr Songo's whereabouts.

MR KNOPP: Movements?

MR MOHALE: That is movement in this regard. We started that very night, that very day I mean to say, assessing the nature of the house, the entrance and the access, how could you arrange for access to get inside the house and all that. I think we stayed there until late, hoping that maybe Mr Songo would go out, because apparently according to the briefings, he was driving on a green BMW. We arranged for Ashley, I mean for Mr Songo's elimination, but that day we could not get hold of him, we left the place as confirmed and then the following day, I think we had a petrol problem, because there was not enough petrol in the car. I brought the issue to Mr Alli, I told him that in fact I did not think that the petrol on the car would suffice the whole operation. Tracing a person, surveying, assessing the movement and all that, that is not really a child thing. He arranged for about, I don't remember as to how much amount, but it was not more than R30-00 for petrol. It was not more than R30-00. The reason I had done this, I knew the whole operation was co-ordinated structurally, so I didn't think that he would have a problem of course with the petrol and all that. The following day we went, according to our information Mr Songo's routine was actually that he would always wake up in the morning, and take jogging, that is running, and come back. We went there with Ashley in the hope that we might come or bump on him, Songo, doing as I was told the normal jogging. But this too failed, we could not get hold of him, of Mr Songo. Ashley had confirmed, because I had parked the car on the other area along the hospital and Ashley went through and checked if Mr Songo could not be tracked down. He came later on and he accounted that "Chief, apparently the situation isn't favourable as such, we had better move, and then we would see later on what we would do." So this time we failed to track down Mr Songo, and this was Saturday, it was Saturday. Then that Saturday we stayed almost half a night, watching and surveying the movements in Mr Songo's house, but this too had dealt us nothing but void. We then left that period, we left in the middle of the night and then we had to change the whole approach, that "listen, now this time, we would have to go inside the house", but then a legend had to be made, it had to be made to say as to how would we go inside or get inside the house.

Now I had a history with Mr Songo, he was once my class teacher, so if I would approach him, surely he would not have any suspicion of anything fishy. This whole thing, I did it accountable to Alli liaising with Alli Tleane, always putting him updated about the ongoings of the operation itself. Apparently he was very anxious that the mission should be arranged and be dealt with so that the car could be returned to the owner. Then on Sunday morning, we went to Mr Songo's place, and I got inside and Mr Songo apparently, he had shown surprise, he had not seen me for some period, that is ever since I was his Maths student. He tried to find out as to whether where had I been all the period, and then I made it clear to him that "listen, the time period with which we had not seen each other, seen each other mean to say, I was in exile." Apparently I have come back and I would like to engage your expertise because on my return from exile, I had achieved some skills and then apparently I have qualifications for those skills and I would want you to exercise your expertise as a teacher and advise me as to how to compliment the whole certificates or should I say professions, as one.

He then hinted that in fact Mr Mohale, you would have arrange and see you bring alone those certificates and then I could be in a position to exercise my expertise, my experience as a teacher, that how could you possibly compliment those certificates as one in the type of job that you want to do. This whole thing, talking and chatting there, it was nothing else but it was a legend, to get through him. You must understand that that is during our Military Intelligence, MCW, legends, it is used and it is taught very strongly and cadres are advised to be careful when coming to operations and in the use of legends. But then during that period, something came up, I think there were women, two women if my memory still reminds me well, they came in and apparently I could not perform the mission then. So I left and I told Mr Songo "listen Mr Songo, I see you are busy, apparently I can see that your programme is a bit tied up", and then he arranged that "listen, you can come to school as soon as you have arranged your certificates, you can come to me at school and then I could be in a position to advise you objectively in this regard." Okay, we left, I left Mr Songo, I got into the car and then off we went.

This time too, I could not perform the mission. I reported the matter to Alli that the mission was still on. He confirmed it and then I kept on tracing the whereabouts of Songo, trying to track if I could do or carry on the mission without necessarily at his home. I mean without necessarily going at his home, and carry on the mission there. It turned out that as I was tracing him, we met somewhere at somewhere in Tembisa, because I was tracking him, apparently he spotted the car, because previously he had seen the car, the previous Sunday, he had seen the car. He spotted the car and he in fact came to me in the car and we had a chat.

I don't remember quite well, what was the whole chat all about, but apparently my mind was not there. You can just imagine, you track somebody and then apparently at the time when you arrange how you are going to go about hitting him, then that very same person comes to you and this somehow neutralises you and I must admit that in this period Mr Songo, my background with him, really, we never had anything personal as such. As my teacher, he was a wonderful teacher. I respected him as a teacher, our relations together were never at havoc as such. I don't remember at any time, at any point in time, getting entangled in should I say a volcano of words and all that, I don't remember at any point in time. But now here I am, I had received instructions to carry on and eliminate this very person that we never had a grudge, that we never had any personal animosities together.

But then as the struggle goes, you cannot be neutral in the struggle. In the struggle, it is either you belong to the far right or you belong to the far left. Now apparently according to the briefings, he had the history with the old regime, the old structures of the apartheid regime. As then as instructions go, as a soldier, I had to decide and in fact often as to whether, where do I fall? Do I fall with the enemy, or do I fall with the community, that is the people, the masses in this regard. This whole thing kept on coming on my mind, as the whole operation, it was somehow called, it could not be dealt with as a soldier could not do. We parted at Sangweni, I didn't carry on the mission. Every time I had to carry on the mission, there was this, I couldn't do it. This person was once my teacher, it was a havoc in my mind, but finally I had to decide where do I fall. Am I honest to the people to whom I am serving, that is the people, the masses or should I pledge my loyalty to my personal background, personal relations with Mr Songo, as a student when I was his student at school, but finally my conscience had vowed loyalty with the people. As we parted, that period that time, then I left, we then met again if I still remember, that was I think on Wednesday. That was in fact on Wednesday, that was after the weekend when the car was provided to me and when the instructions were confirmed. I took Ashley that morning because prior to that morning, that was on Tuesday, apparently Alli came to where I was staying, on Tuesday, that was before Wednesday. Alli came to me and he wanted to know as to how far had I gone with the mission and apparently he was under pressure, he was pressurised by the owner of the car, that he should actually try and return the car back and all that. He wanted the mission to be carried on as fast as possible, with immediate effect so that the car could be returned back to the owner. Well, I cannot tell you as to how it came that he knew where I am, he must have been told by my brother-in-law, because Alli Tleane and my brother-in-law, they are together in the same organisation. He then left and then we carried on with the tracing, surveying and all that. That very day too, Mr Songo could not be dealt with, and then the following morning, in the morning, on Wednesday, it was myself, I took Ashley and the other operatives and SDU operatives in the local structures in Tembisa, that is Simon, this operative's name is called Simon, and then apparently Ashley had briefed, he had arranged, he had told Simon and apparently Simon knew about the operation and I for one, I didn't have a problem, I said to him "listen Simon, since you know about the operation, I won't be leaving you behind, we would be going together." We left, the three of us, and Simon took petrol bombs, he took petrol bombs with him.

MR KNOPP: What for?

MR MOHALE: I would like to put this thing clear. You know, this Songo thing, operation, mission and all that, apparently turned out when it was related to me and then when Ashley was told, when I was trying to find out to Ashley, "Ashley, could you please specify as to what was the relation, because according to instructions that we have had, you are involved in the structures, I have just arrived inside the country, what is it that, what is the relation between Songo and the local structures" and Ashley confirmed that people are very angry, the local structures are very angry with him, Songo, and in fact him, Ashley, was not surprised when finally the President of SANCO an ANC alliance, had brought this thing, this mission up. There is a general anger locally against the activities of Songo, his involvement with the local Municipal structures. So this guy, Simon, he had shared the very same feeling, the very same anger. So that confirmed the instructions from Alli Tleane. Now coming to the petrol bombs, the position was that after having eliminated Mr Songo, his car would be burnt. That was the purpose of these rudimentary explosives.

MR LAX: Why was it necessary to burn his car? What was your purpose in doing that?

MR MOHALE: I think that was - the feeling in the cadres, in the operatives, these operatives, according to instructions, the instructions had nothing to do with the burning of his car, it had nothing to do with the burning of Mr Songo's car, my instructions were that Mr Songo should be eliminated, but then the question of burning his car, it came in the operatives, between Ashley and Sesing. You know the young lions, I had realised that as MK cadres we were under pressure ourselves, when we arrived inside the country, people's anger was very strong. As cadres of the movement, it was our onus and responsibility to see to it that when such anger does erupt, we should see to it that we control it, we guide people not to allow our anger to do, to go astray in a way, but then it came up in the two operatives.

MR LAX: But even so, I say even so, you were the experienced cadre, why didn't you tell them to leave it behind? That was your order, why didn't you carry out your order?

MR MOHALE: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: Wasn't it your order just to kill the man, you order wasn't to damage his vehicle or do anything else?

MR MOHALE: Yes, and indeed his vehicle was not damaged.

MR LAX: Yes, but that is no thanks to you? It just so happened that it wasn't damaged, the point that I am trying to make is that if you are a disciplined comrade, and you are going about your business in a disciplined way, why take petrol bombs which go against your instructions?

MR MOHALE: I didn't take petrol bombs, for one, operatives took petrol bombs, for one, but I did tell them that in any way there was no point of burning his property, that is his car, and indeed, when the whole operation took place, the petrol bomb, was not used. We left with the petrol bombs and in fact, after Mr Songo was shot, the position, the whole thing as I told you, I was in two minds, there was so much havoc in my mind, but I had to decide where do I put my loyalty. That day, Mr Songo, I could have finished him, because apparently when I left him running inside, he was running towards the school direction, the gate of the school, direction, something, you know I did not, I could not even apply the shooting rules, and I was even surprised when later on, I was told that the two shots I had pumped on him, actually did reach him. I was honestly shocked, because I did not apply the shooting rules. As I am saying, my conscience was quite down, but then I was trapped, I was locked in this dilemma.

MR KNOPP: Dilemma.

MR MOHALE: In all loyalty to - you know, it is not easy to take someone's life that you had not a normal history and previous - I don't know how to put it, I wish I had words to express this, it wasn't an easy thing, it wasn't an easy thing, it was quite, it was quite, I don't know how to put it, but ultimately I had to, finally I had to come to terms with orders, this is the pressure. I wish I could put this clear, you know, this pressure, I don't know how to put it, you have to decide where your loyalty lies. People expected so much from us, they expected so much from MK cadres and in a way trying to satisfy, but somehow it had gone wrong somewhere. It happened, it wasn't a wonderful thing and I am not proud for what I did, it was quite, I am not, it is not an ANC policy. It is not an ANC policy or MK policy, we never take joy or - I have to point this - we never take joy at taking people's lives, but political circumstances, drove us to that. It wasn't quite, I don't know how to put this, you know, the reason I have come here, you know this TRC, it came as an initiative taken by the movement, and in fact what I am doing here, it is nothing new from the ANC, it is a bond, it is the marriage that we have in the ANC, the ANC is what it is today because of the truth. I think that in order to assist the transition process, then it won't be complete, not unless people know, we could not spare the family of Rev Namane or Mr Songo the sense of happiness, simply because of the political circumstances at the time. But at least we could spare them the decency of honesty to tell them the truth, they have the right, it is not a privilege for them, it is not a privilege for them to know about their loved ones, they have the right to know. I am not doing them any favour, in fact this is a debt I owe to them, it is a debt I owe to the people of this country, it is a debt I owe to the people in this room, it is a debt I owe to this Commission, it is a debt we owe to the nation of this country, that people should know what happened. People should know, people should know, people should know, I don't know how to put this, they should know. We should not take advantage of the trust that people have on us. When things happened, people should come forward, they should relate it, they should relate it, tell and come frank, that is what honesty is. When the ANC was formed, when the movement was formed, it was formed on honest grounds, it was formed of facts, on truthful facts. It doesn't make the period, the 1980's when the regime was subjecting our people in brutal acts, atrocities and all that, we are honest by then, we are collectively, what I did, it was a collective thing. It was a collective thing, not today I stand before this Commission as an individual, today when I come to the Commission, I must come as an individual. People come to the Commission individually. When we carried on the struggle, it was not an individual struggle, it had nothing to do with individual problems. It was a struggle for the people. The whole thing was, it was a collective bargaining, it was a collective struggle. But then today, here I am standing individually before your Commission. Where are my leaders? Where are they? They are smart, they are clean, they are No-Knows now, that is their name, I give them, they are No-Knows, (indistinct) the Commission, South Africa by nature, it is all season, but not all South African citizens are men of all seasons. Some of us, we are allergic to summer, some of us are allergic to winter, some to spring, some of us are allergic to autumn, as a result some of us are allergic to truth and reconciliation. This is not new. We have had leaders who have betrayed combatants, we have had leaders who have interested, who have interested disinformation of information. We have had leaders who have misled cadres, we have had leaders who have served in their interest, who have used cadres to fulfil their personal gains, to fulfil their interest, they have used cadres. They have used soldiers serving their own interest. I would not be surprised if it might happen that my leaders, they have more to tell, they fear surely that maybe there was something more that I was not told, so it is so clear that I need to be told. I need to be told. I am a victim of circumstances too. I don't deny that, that we are victims here. I don't deny that we are victims here. I too, I think it should be clear to this Commission ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mohale, we have heard what you are saying.

MR MOHALE: I too, I am a victim too.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOHALE: And I need accountability, just much the same as the family of Namane needs accountability. Much the same ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp, I don't know if there is anything else that you wanted to lead about this attempted killing incident. Perhaps that will assist us. If we can round that one off.

MR MOHALE: Sorry, could I please provide something to the Commission to read? Could I please submit something?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't believe that you have told us everything about the incident we were dealing with.

MR MOHALE: Could I please carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Your Advocate will ask you questions so that that remaining evidence that we must still hear about the other incident is placed before us, so listen to him and he will ask you - perhaps Mr Knopp, we should take the adjournment at this stage, it looks as if your client would need a bit of time to recollect himself. We will adjourn for lunch and we will reconvene at two o'clock. We are adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

LINDA ENOCH MOHALE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knopp?

EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: (cont)

Thank you sir. Mr Mohale, what type of firearm did you use in the operation concerning the second victim?

MR MOHALE: It was a 38 long nose, 38. A 38 revolver.

MR KNOPP: Where did this weapon come from?

MR MOHALE: It was part of my armoury weapons. It was part of the unit weapons.

MR KNOPP: So was that a weapon issued to you by MK?

MR MOHALE: No, that 38 was not issued to me by MK.

MR KNOPP: How did you come to acquire it?

MR MOHALE: I acquired that 38 revolver at Soweto.

MR KNOPP: Was that your private firearm or what is the position?

MR MOHALE: In the movement, whenever we disarm, we don't personalise weapons, so it was the unit weapons.

MR KNOPP: Which unit? Which unit are we talking about?

MR MOHALE: When I talk about the unit weapons, I mean the underground unit, the SDU units.

MR KNOPP: Could you just explain something, in the first operation, a pistol was used and in the second operation, a revolver was used. How is that?

MR MOHALE: How is that?

MR KNOPP: Yes?

MR MOHALE: Apparently, let me just give you a brief history about the revolver, how did it come about. We were visiting one of our combatants in Soweto at Dube area, it was myself and Ashley, so it turned out whilst we were enjoying our visit at this combatant's house, around twelve if I am not mistaken, twelve to two, he had suggested that he would go to the shop so that he could arrange some food, to get us something to eat. The next thing came a young child, a young kid in fact, running inside the house where we were at. He then reported to us that Zakhele is having a problem at the shop, apparently he had instructions or the message that we should speedily hasten to the shop and that was the message this child got from Zakhele from the shop. It was myself and Ashley, so I had a Stechkin with me and then Ashley had a small 38 revolver, a 38 not long nose revolver. The one that we used at Songo is the long nose 38 revolver. So we rushed to the shop, on our arrival there, Temba, that is the name of the combatant that we had paid a visit, he was in fact inside the shop, the other side of the counter. He then told us that apparently the shop was under, there is an attempt, a pending attempt of robbery and apparently the owner of the shop, he knows him, since he knew that Zakhele was a combatant and as an MK member, he had spotted this pending robbery and fortunately enough, at that time, when the robbery was just pending, was just about to take place, Zakhele came in and then the owner of the shop immediately told him "thank you that you arrived, apparently there is a pending robbery. There are people outside, seemingly they are planning to engage in a robbery". Apparently seemingly they knew that that day the owner of the shop in Dube, he was about to, he was supposed to go to the bank and had the money put on his account.

Zakhele, seeing that the situation was boiling, he then sent this small child to go and tell us that there is a situation somewhere at the shop, so when we arrived there, surely the situation was like that. We were then shown these guys outside as they were about four or five, if my memory still reminds me well, outside the shop and they have deployed themselves differently according to their strategy, I cannot account about their strategy, but the way they had deployed themselves, it was such that they had parted ways. Seemingly they were waiting for the owner of the shop so that he could be robbed. On arrival there with Ashley, we found the situation and then we immediately had to plan, to counter that robbery, because that robbery was inside Soweto, Dube. In a way, meaning that these were the people who were in fact coming to commit robbery locally in the area of Soweto.

The trust, the owner of the shop that he had, I mean about MK, he had the guts to tell Zakhele and had the hope that hopefully Zakhele would do something about it, and fortunately we were present. So then we then planned, I told Ashley that I assessed the situation, I analysed the situation and then we concluded immediately, we decided immediately that we have to get hold first, we would first have to get hold of the three assailants, because only three were available, the other two, it was after we had encountered the first assailants. When we got out of the shop, I gave Zakhele our Stechkin. He was supposed to use the Stechkin, there was a wall around the shop, so this other assailant, he was sitting on the wall, he had a background with him. Zakhele was to tackle the guy on the wall and then Ashley and I, Ashley was supposed to tackle the one who was sitting on the Apollo, yes, there is a light, we normally call them Apollo lights, Apollo lights. I am coming, I am trying to come to the point of the 38 long nose rifle, how did it happen. We encountered on our encounter against the assailants, we managed to shoot them and we managed to curb the whole robbery, it was a victory and the owner of the shop apparently was very happy, but then it turned out that the police arrived in the area, and when they arrived, we - myself and Ashley, we decided to move, to evacuated the area and then Zakhele, that is Temba, the combatant, the guy we had paid a visit to, he remained behind. That is how the Stechkin was left behind. But then this 38 was disarmed against those assailants who were planning the robbery in Soweto, so as MK cadres, we felt that it was our responsibility and our onus to counter that robbery. This, amongst the weapons that were disarmed, in that encounter, it was this 38, it was amongst the weapons that were disarmed during that encounter. The Stechkin was lost to, it was left with Temba when we evacuated, retreated in fact, when we retreated the area of encounter, and then it was left with Zakhele. Apparently when the police arrived, Zakhele handed that Stechkin over to the police and then whilst we and Ashley we retreated to the safe place, because in fact we didn't want to have any interaction with the police, so we left Zakhele so that Zakhele could explain everything together with the owner of the shop and the servants there who were working at the shop, and they were very much, they were very much happy and satisfied about our work, the work that we had actually encountered and victorious (indistinct), so this 38 revolver, that is how it came to our hand. The Stechkin, and apparently Zakhele didn't reveal the whole situation, the Flying Squad, they were very much interested as to, in fact, they couldn't believe the whole story that it was only Zakhele and the owner of the shop that had encountered that robbery. They had the feeling that there were other people and Zakhele didn't actually reveal the whole thing and he ended up, and he was paid a ransom for that, the Police Force was very much happy and the whole operation was published on the newspaper that an MK cadre had encountered a robbery at Dube and all that. If the Truth Commission would like a background on that, I would be pleased to direct them and get hold of the combatant and the owner of the shop.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, where did you obtain the ammunition for the .38 revolver which was used in the second operation?

MR MOHALE: The - would you please repeat that?

MR KNOPP: Where did you obtain the ammunition which you used in the revolver for the second operation, that is the Songo mission?

MR MOHALE: As I have made mention, I got it from Soweto. That 38 is the revolver that came to our hand as a result of the encounter at Soweto, the robbery, that 38.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it loaded?

MR MOHALE: Yes, it was loaded.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes. Mr Knopp?

MR KNOPP: Thank you, all right. Did you shoot Mr Songo twice?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I did. Could I explain that scene, how did it ...

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: Could I?

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: All right, so then it turned out, as we arrived, I was just about explaining that I took Simon and Ashley and then we went to the school. On arrival at the school, it was still early, so we parked the car outside the school yard in the hope that Mr Songo might probably pitch up. But then after about some time, I don't recall, but it was after some time we had parked outside the school yard, we then decided that we should move inside the school and actually wait for Mr Songo inside the school. We got inside the school, we parked the car, but as we were waiting there, I was confronted by one of the teachers, I think it was teacher Mtimkhulu, he once taught me too, it is just that I remember the subject that he was teaching at school. He came to me and in fact, he had a suspicion about the car, so - but finally when he arrived at the car, he found that in fact the person who was driving the car, was familiar to him. He was still recalling, that is remembering, my character if I may put it in that way. Then he asked me where had I been all along and all that, and I told him "Mr Mtimkhulu, I had been away for quite some time, I have been in exile, and apparently I had come to see Mr Songo, we had an educational problem to resolve with him, that had to be addressed with him". It was during that period when Mr Songo came inside the yard, Mr Songo's car came inside the school yard, and at that very moment, the school bell was ringing. The teacher left and then as Mr Songo got inside the, drove inside the school yard, he had some people, he was with some people in the car, I think it was some teachers, it must be colleagues at the school. He then got out of the car, seemingly he had seen me, he had noticed me when he drove inside the school yard, so immediately he got off the car and he came to me, in fact, I came to him too, we met each other midway. I then informed him "listen Mr Songo, this is the situation, as you remember last time we met and we had this arrangement that you would assist me with my certifications and all that, so I am now having them in my possession and could you please embark on that." He didn't have a problem, but he firstly suggested that we give, I give him a chance first, an opportunity to attend to school children so that they are all in, to see to it that they are all in the class, and then thereafter we would address the matter. I didn't have a problem with that, because in a way it would have dealt, the school children, school kids a trauma had I decided to actually pump a gun on him in the presence of the school children. I did not - I allowed him to carry on first the whole school issue, meanwhile I would be waiting for him. Then, Mr Songo then went out of the school yard, apparently he was encouraging the school children to rush up, since it was, the bell had rung to come to the assembly and as usual, as it is the ritual in our schools, that prior the actual school lessons, we would, the students would first, I mean it is a ritual, we would first conduct a prayer and go to the classes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think this is really in dispute, nobody is disputing that you shot Mr Songo. You know, you could perhaps just stick to the actual shooting incident.

MR MOHALE: Okay, thank you very much, I would do so.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR MOHALE: All right, okay. So as Mr Songo was outside, outside the gate, we then decided that we should go outside of the school yard, this time Mr Songo was out, outside the school yard, so we got out, we got outside. In fact I drove outside and then whilst I was passing Ashley was supposed to, he is the one that was supposed to carry on the shooting. But then it turned out that as I was passing, Ashley did not have the guts, he did not have the guts himself and apparently he had this havoc in his mind too, hence he did not shoot, meanwhile we had just passed Mr Songo. Realising that Ashley could not carry on the operation, I parked somewhere, not a distance away, it was a distance of about 19, 20 plus minus metres away. I instructed Ashley to actually go out and shoot, the mission, to carry it out but apparently both Ashley and Simon, the other comrade, they had - I don't know how to tell this - they were just shaking, shivering, in fact the whole situation in the car, we were not ourselves. The whole situation in the car, we were not ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: They couldn't ...

MR MOHALE: The car, they gun, they started - you see, people tossing the gun, the one tossing to the other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they couldn't get themselves so far as to actually do the shooting?

MR MOHALE: Yes, they could not.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you then do?

MR MOHALE: So then I got out of the car and then as I got out of the car, I took the gun from the back, both of them, they were sitting on the back. I took the gun from Ashley and the moment after, the next thing I knew, it was the sound of a gun and that sound, it turned out that it was me, myself, shooting those two bullets at Mr Songo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KNOPP: So, the bullets struck Mr Songo, and he was injured, is that correct?

MR MOHALE: Yes, it turned out, I heard the news later on that he was injured, but when I left, he was running inside the school yard. I immediately got inside the car and off I went, and I brought the car back to Mr Alli Tleane. In turn Mr Alli Tleane, he took the car back to the owner.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back to Mr Alli Tleane?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I first, it was myself and Ashley, we had dropped the other guy along the way as we were going back. Together Ashley and I, we went to Mr Alli, I had the mission reported in the presence of Ashley and Mr Alli then decided that he would take the car back to Mr Mahlo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Knopp?

MR KNOPP: So Mr Songo never died from the injuries, he is still alive today?

MR MOHALE: Yes, he never died from the injuries. In fact he was present during the court ...

MR KNOPP: The High Court trial?

MR MOHALE: The High Court trial.

MR KNOPP: All right. Let's come now to when you were arrested for another offence, was that on the 2nd of December 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the subject matter of the application, is that one of the incidents that he is applying for?

MR KNOPP: That is not, he in fact - my instructions are that the applicant has already served his time for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if he is not applying for that Mr Knopp, perhaps it might not assist us in deciding on the two incidents that he is in fact applying for.

MR KNOPP: I am aware of that, I am trying to lead up to the confessions which the applicant made to the police concerning this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know whether that is strictly speaking necessary for you to do that at this stage. I don't know what is really in dispute, perhaps you should you know reserve whatever you want to do about that, to hear first what is in dispute really, because you know in so far as the application is concerned, all that the applicant has to do is make an application in respect of the matters before us. He presents his evidence, and if people want to cross-examine on material that might be laying around, they are entitled to do so. Often there is not much weight attached to that sort of thing, so it might very well be that it is not necessary to go through all those lengthy documentation. Perhaps you can hold back for re-examination if it is necessary.

MR KNOPP: I don't know how else I am going to place it on record, if I don't do it from the applicant's evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any material that forms part of these statements that you are talking about, that will assist us in deciding the matter before us, because that is really the question?

MR KNOPP: Yes. Sir, it is not the contents of the confessions which I really want to place before the panel, it is how the police came to hear about these two incidents and obtained information to prosecute the applicant eventually. It is the contention that had it not been for the applicant's own initiative in summoning the police and telling them about the instance, he would never have been prosecuted in the first place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you just lead him on that, just put it on record directly. I don't think that it can really be in dispute, if there is an objection, we can deal with that, but bearing in mind that we are not a trial court, we are an administrative tribunal, we want to be flexible, we are working against time constraints, and so on, so go right to the point.

MR KNOPP: Yes. Mr Mohale, just listen carefully to the proposition that I am going to put to you and just answer yes or no. In 1996 were you in Leeukop prison serving out a sentence for some other matter, not related to this?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Did you then at your own initiative caused the police to be called to Leeukop prison with the object of making a confession concerning these two instances, the murder and the attempted murder?

MR MOHALE: Could I explain that?

MR KNOPP: Did you call the police and say "I want to confess, I want to make a statement about these instances"?

MR MOHALE: Yes, after the police had confronted me. They had confronted me about the incidents, the matter of which, I was surprised when it was brought to me, I was very much surprised, because according to the facts thereon, I had long arranged with Tabiso Radebe, because after he got released from prison, he came in prison, Mr Tabiso Radebe, he came to prison after he got released from prison from that conviction, the conviction that I made mention of, he came in prison and he was in the company on my brother-in-law. He told me that "listen soldier, combatant, I know that Mr Namane's case, what we will do, we will try, I am going to make it a point that this matter is brought before the Truth Commission" and this he said in the presence of my brother-in-law, George Bila. Then I said to him "yes, it would be better to arrange the matter, to get it reported and heard before the Truth Commission itself", so all along I was trying to consult with them, trying to establish the latest about that Truth Commission procedure. But then what happened, it was that he had problems himself, sometimes I would ask my brother-in-law "where is Tabiso, how does the TRC issue (indistinct)", but then it turns out that later on when I was confronted, I was really shocked because I thought the issue had long been brought before the Commission, so when the Minister of Public Safety and Security approached me in prison, I didn't have a problem with that, I even told them that I am surprised, this matter could have long been presented before the Truth Commission, according to the way I have arranged things with my leaders. But the next thing, I mean I knew, it was the affidavits made by Patrick Thwala himself to the police, I don't remember whether Tabiso Radebe had made an affidavit, but I remember that Patrick Thwala himself, the police, the Detective officers had affidavits from Patrick Thwala and then they had also an affidavit made for them, by Mr Alli Tleane. Apparently when leaders were confronted, they then realised that they did not honour their words to me, that the matter would be put before the Truth Commission, they were not. So when they were confronted, in fact seemingly they thought that the matter won't come up, but then nature worked with things the other way around. It turned out the whole thing got turned up, came up. When they arrived to me, I made it a point that I would not hide anything, I would confess to the matter and bring it before the court of law, so that facts could be made, administered and the public in a way should have access to that information. I then arranged for statement by a Magistrate, where I made the declaration, the Statement of Principle before the Magistrate and the two case confessions that got made, and each confession according to its own merits, its own commandments and all that.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

MR MOHALE: That is how the whole thing came about.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, the first confession was made on the 1st of November 1996, you were taken to a Magistrate in Kempton Park, Mr Oberholzer, and the confession was so long that he couldn't finish the entire confession on one day, so on the 8th of November 1996, you were taken back to the same Magistrate and you made a second confession, is that correct?

MR MOHALE: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Eventually you were prosecuted in a High Court for these offences, is that correct?

MR MOHALE: That is true, it is true.

MR LAX: Can I just check this, do I understand you correctly, you thought there was a cover up about your, this issue and therefore you decided to take it to the police and blow it wide open?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: In a nutshell, is that it?

MR MOHALE: Yes, in a nutshell, that is it.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MOHALE: But in fact, the leaders ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why don't you keep it in a nutshell, we understand it.

MR LAX: We understand you.

MR KNOPP: Mr Mohale, just to round off your evidence, at the end of the High Court trial, did you have the opportunity of speaking to the victim himself, Mr Songo and also the family of the other victim, Rev Namane?

MR MOHALE: Yes, in fact I had arranged it myself with Mr Songo, I met with him and we have made peace together. Though under circumstances of the court, we didn't have enough time, but finally we have made peace together, and then I also arranged with the family of the late Rev Namane, together we met, we shook hands and then I made my remorse, hurt to them and I would like them to know that I am deeply hurt for what had happened in the family. I am deeply hurt that the death and all the sermons, the funeral sermons had to take place as a result of this hurt. Really I am deeply hurt about that. I would love them to reconcile with me, embrace and be friends again.

MR KNOPP: Thank you sir, that is the evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Just one question. Mr Mohale, in retrospect as you are sitting here today and looking back at the killing of Mr Namane, can you still say that the killing was politically justifiable?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mohale, I have consulted with the three people you are implicating in this matter, Mr Tleane, Mr Thwala and Mr

Radebe. I will indicate to you what their view is about your evidence and that they will give evidence to dispute what you have testified on against them, before this panel.

MR MOHALE: So please, prior to that, could I please say something?

CHAIRPERSON: You want to put a version of the ...

MS MTANGA: I want to put the versions of the three witnesses to Mr Mohale.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right. First listen Mr Mohale, listen to what Ms Mtanga puts to you and then you respond, you can say whatever else you wanted to say.

MR MOHALE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MS MTANGA: Mr Tabiso Radebe would like to know from you what MK underground structures are you referring to because at the time, in 1992, MK was not an underground structure or they didn't have activities that were being carried out underground, so which units were you referring to that were still operating underground at that time, at the time of the murder of Mr Namane?

MR MOHALE: MK underground units, they were under their charge. MK underground units, there were no names imparted on those units. When I arrived inside the country, you must understand that when we signed, when we ceased operations, when we suspended operations on the 6th of August 1990, MK was not immediately disbanded and meaning that our underground cells continued operating. We could not, say for instance the question of arms, the movement, the ANC had taken a decision in its (indistinct) Conference, a decision was taken and this decision was supported by the National Peace Accord that people could be, should be armed as a result of the attacks and the violence inside the country. The arms that were given to me, surely those arms were from the underground structures, that were operating then. The ANC did not go to the regime, did not go to the old order, to the government and tell them "listen, here are the people, they are unarmed, apparently they are under attack", the violence against the people is getting stronger, the third arm of the enemy was getting stronger, and stronger, and stronger, it was getting worse, worse than the period of the 1980's, before - when the regime was still active, strong on its feet. We did not take the arms from SADF, we took the arms that belonged to our underground structures.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mohale, in your earlier evidence you made mention of the MK underground structures and then you also stated that SDU units, at the time you carried out these two operations, was there a distinction between your alleged MK underground operations and the SDU units, were these one or were they still different units operating or structures operating at that time?

MR MOHALE: They were two different units. These were two different units.

MS MTANGA: So your evidence is that MK was still operating underground along with SDU units in existence?

MR MOHALE: Yes, because SDU's could not make it alone, could not make it on their own. As MK underground structure had to see to it that nothing, nothing whatsoever that would betray the cause that was waged by the SDU, it was a noble cause, it was a noble cause, the cause of defending our masses. We needed an underground structure to see to it that everything in these units, these units worked according to the guidelines.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Mohale. The next point that Mr Radebe wants to clear up with you is that at the time you were operating these units, what was the unit that you were working with, the name of the unit or the people who constituted that unit, the MK underground unit that you referred to?

MR MOHALE: Let me get it straight before this Commission, when we were forming units, we were not forming gangsters. This unit, it was part of an M-Plan, it has a long history. It came from the M-Plan, called history, the M-Plan called background, that was Mandela's plan. So when these units were formed, they were formed in defence of the people, so it did not impart names in these units, that this one would be better tomorrow, this one would be 21 Jump Street and all that, you hear of all these gangsterism. But these were community units, they were accountable to the community unit, and the underground MK structures were there to see to it that there is an order and there is discipline, there is a direction in this unit.

MS MTANGA: My second question in that question, Mr Mohale was who were the members of the unit that you belonged to, even if you didn't have a name, who were the members of that unit?

CHAIRPERSON: That is now the MK underground unit?

MS MTANGA: The MK underground unit.

MR MOHALE: The MK underground unit, well, at that period I had the knowledge, I was liaising the whole operation, everything with Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe. In a way, whenever we met with other cadres, normally we would refer to each other as Chief, and this count at our advantage, because normally intelligently speaking, it would not be wise to expose the names of other cadres, so the little you know, the better. I would by laying to say that there were other comrades in the underground units that I knew. But I only operated, did my whole operation with Tabiso Radebe and Patrick Thwala. Other comrades were just introduced to me, they were not introduced as members of the unit, so I could not ask if this one belongs to the unit or that one and that one, it goes the whole way.

MS MTANGA: Would I be correct to conclude that your reference to a unit is basically the relationship that you had with Tabiso Radebe and Pat Thwala? You regarded them as your unit members at that time, am I right?

MR MOHALE: I regarded them as leaders of the units, of the underground units. I don't regard them as leaders of, my leaders and all that, I regard them as leaders of the underground, because that was what was confirmed to me. When I received to them, when the whole armourment was granted to me, it was confirmed, it was said these weaponry, these DLB's belong to the underground structures, I could not dispute that. Surely I knew that there are underground structures. So who we are to have got, how can I put this, it would have been a big mistake, a big error to immediately, to immediately have dismantled our underground structure with the negotiations still going on between us, that is the movement, the ANC and the other warring parties, and together with the government. The whole situation inside the country, we didn't trust, so we didn't immediately disbanded, our underground structures were maintained pending the negotiations process. We did not just immediately ...

MR LAX: Mr Mohale, sorry, I am just going to cut you short there, the question remains though, did you have members of a unit or didn't you, because from what you are saying you were on your own, and you didn't have any members of MK that were with you in a unit as such?

MR MOHALE: Members of MK that I had in a unit as such, that was Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe.

MR LAX: But you have just said they weren't part of your unit, they were your leaders?

MR MOHALE: Yes, leaders form part of the whole.

MR LAX: Yes, so if you talk about an MK unit, there was no such thing that you were part of?

MR MOHALE: That could be answered by my leaders, I was told that MK operatives are there and this armourment belongs to the underground MK structures, I cannot dispute that. I cannot dispute that now and I could not dispute that then.

MR LAX: Did you ever form a unit with anyone else besides Mr Thwala and Mr Radebe?

MR MOHALE: I never formed a unit myself. What I did, I came the units that were already functioning when I arrived inside the country. They lacked military skills, defence skills, so as MK cadres, we had to ...

MR LAX: Yes, but you are not answering my question. Now you are going onto the SDU's, those were the people you trained. We are talking about the MK underground units.

MR MOHALE: I for one, I never had my own unit.

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR MOHALE: And I never formed a unit.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MOHALE: Yes, very much.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. If I may just conclude what the Chair has just raised with you, there seems to be a confusion in the way you use the word unit in regard to the MK's, because from what you say now, our understanding of the units that would have been in existence at that time, that would have been the SDU units that you were training, not necessarily MK units that you say you worked with, am I correct?

MR MOHALE: You are correct in a way, in a way. Let me put it in this way, we had SDU units, I think I will be repeating myself, we had SDU units and then we had underground MK units so these, the SDU's, they came as initiative taken by the community and as MK, we had to support them, because it was a good initiative taken by the community. Since the SAP, since our people did not enjoy the services of the SAP, they did not enjoy the services of SADF, they did not enjoy whatever services that was given, that was meant to be ...

MR LAX: We are all familiar with the policy, with the history, with all the documents. We understand that, you have been asked a very simple question, a very specific issue.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mohale, I would move on. In your evidence earlier on you indicated that you first met Tabiso Radebe at George Bila's place and you further stated that he was at that time serving at the Ordinance Section if I got that correctly?

MR MOHALE: You got it correctly.

MS MTANGA: And you said at the Ordinance Section, he was responsible for operations, do you recall that?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: What sort of operations was Mr Radebe responsible for?

MR MOHALE: Well, I was accountable to him about the training of the SDU's, and the overall situation inside the SDU's, whether we were encountering any counter-insurgency inside the SDU's, those were the operations that he was in charge of. I was accountable to him.

MS MTANGA: You accounted to Mr Radebe?

MR MOHALE: I was accountable to him.

MS MTANGA: All right. And what was your relationship with Mr Pat Thwala at this time?

MR MOHALE: Mr Patrick Thwala?

MS MTANGA: Patrick Thwala?

MR MOHALE: It is the same relationship which I had with Mr Radebe. Mr Patrick Thwala was the Commander of the underground units, he was commanding the underground units, and apparently Tabiso Radebe was liaising the whole thing with him. He would not do anything according to him, he would not do anything without necessarily reporting it to Patrick Thwala. In fact Patrick Thwala would always come and confirm that, so I am talking from experience, practical point of view.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Mohale. My next question is according to Mr Tabiso Radebe, if you were operating as an MK cadre at that time, the MK used combat names and you never dealt with him as Tabiso Radebe or dealt with Patrick Thwala as Patrick Thwala, you would have been using combat names and he wants to know what was your combat name, and what were their combat names which you were using?

MR MOHALE: My combat name when I was operating and when in fact I came back inside the country, still remained like that, my combat name is Sinzene, or call it Sankara Mnguni, Thomas Sankara Mnguni. That was my combat name. I was given this name by MK operatives and in as far as the units, where the units were given ...

MS MTANGA: Mr Mohale, can I interrupt you there?

MR MOHALE: All right.

MS MTANGA: This combat name that you have just mentioned, were you known by that combat name by Mr Radebe and Mr Thwala that you were working with, did they call you Mr Mnguni, whatever name you have mentioned?

MR MOHALE: They called me Chief. They called me Chief, always. When we referred to each other, we used to refer to each other as Chief.

MS MTANGA: What were their combat names?

MR MOHALE: I was referring to them as Chief. In fact, could I just point something, I think they should have told you also that maybe, I take it like according to what you put to me, seemingly Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe, they have more to say, in fact I am sorry ...

MS MTANGA: Mr Mohale, I am coming to what they have to say, what they say.

MR MOHALE: All right.

MS MTANGA: Mr Thwala and Mr Radebe, I should put it to you that their evidence will be that there were never MK underground structures in existence in that time, secondly they never formed a unit and that you were never part of their unit and that they never gave you instructions or orders because at that time, the struggle had been ceased by the ANC, so they were not in a position to carry out any operations against any person. What do you say to this?

MR MOHALE: Would you excuse me a moment? What you have before me here, we have two spectacles. What we have before me here, we have two spectacles. The two spectacles show one thing in common and that is visibility, but there is one thing that the two spectacles do not share in common, and that is transparency. On my right hand side, I have impressive spectacles, on my left hand side, I have ridiculous spectacles. We do have ridiculous spectacles in our movement, people who would always hide behind dark corners and take advantage of cadres and soldiers. I would not allow them to do that, I would not. Units, underground units existed, they operated. Not unless if they want to tell this Committee and say "listen, Linda Enoch Mohale in fact, was in fact a Special Ops, so we did not introduce him to the units", not unless they want to tell this Committee that. There are such, such things do happen, so they should not take advantage of that situation. If I was deprived of information, then please let them not abuse the conscience of the people around here. Let them come out and be frank and be honest.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mohale, in respect of Mr Radebe and Mr Thwala, their evidence is that if you carried out these operations, you must have carried them on your own, never with - that is the murder of Mr Namane, that must have been carried on your own, they never gave you instructions, they know nothing about this.

MR MOHALE: I would like my defending councillor here, I have a statement made by Patrick Thwala himself in his affidavit, he said that Linda Enoch Mohale was an MK cadre, accountable to me, accountable to us. He had put it in his handwriting, we can read it and he must deny that. We have the statements here.

MS MTANGA: Mr Thwala, sorry Mr Mohale, in the very affidavit that you refer to, he clearly indicates that you were not accountable to him as an individual. All MK cadres were accountable to the MK structures, that was his evidence.

MR MOHALE: Yes, could we please have my councillor read that statements to you? He must have given a prevarication statement, prevaricated statement.

MS MTANGA: That would be page 25 of the second Bundle.

MR LAX: It starts on page 24 until page 26.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have to read it, but just the section that you are referring to, I don't want to hear the entire statement.

MR MOHALE: Where is that section.

CHAIRPERSON: Just help him Mr Knopp, just mark the section. Ms Mtanga, have you got this?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it should be from paragraph 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 7 Mr Knopp.

MS MTANGA: That is what I have referred to.

MR MOHALE: I only know Linda as one of the local MK members. He knew me as an MK local member, now the question is how did he know that I am an MK member, I want to put it to this Truth Commission, that he knew me as an MK member, then how did he come about knowing my military background or my background with MK?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOHALE: I met him - could I just read - it is a long ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, wasn't that the point that you wanted to make?

MR MOHALE: No. That according to that statement you are identified as an MK member? Let's get the facts straight, were he admit personally that I was accountable to him, please read to the Commission that.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, Mr Mohale, that same statement is before us as well.

MR MOHALE: So could you please try and find out that statement, he actually admits himself, he confesses himself in his own handwriting that I was accountable to the MK structure, it is written there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. All right, we will note that and we don't need to waste any further time on that one, we have the statement before us and we have noted what you say.

MR MOHALE: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mohale, I would like now to move on to your evidence against Mr Tleane, Mr Tleane would like to put it to you that he was merely a leader of a community organisation at that time and he was not in any position to give an order or an instruction of the nature that you have given before this Committee, he never had a mandate or authority to give you such instructions and further that he never desired for Mr Songo to be killed, or had any personal grudges against Mr Songo, what do you say to this?

MR MOHALE: I am saying to them that if anybody decides individually to betray his own conscience, but there is one thing that I know, like it or not people, you cannot betray your conscience. You cannot betray conscience. If that is how they put it, surely it is their belief, so it is clear that our country, it is in the storm of disloyalty, it is in the storm of dishonesty, and this is just depicted before this Truth Commission. I did not come to this Commission to argue with people who are hiding behind dark corners. I have come to this Commission to tell the truth, to at least spare the decency for the victims' families to know of what happened about their beloved ones. That is the reason why I came to this Commission, and I must admit that I am happy and I am glad that I finally made it and I have finally cleared my conscience. If anybody else decides to betray his conscience, then surely it is a betrayal of the struggle, that is my response to that.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Mohale. Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the panel have any questions? If you have any questions, I want you to ask it now before Mr Knopp re-examines, he can re-examine on any issues that the panel raises as well, and conclude it.

ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Mohale, when you returned from exile, did you go back to Tembisa?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I came through Jan Smuts airport and then I went to Tembisa.

ADV SIBANYONI: Yes, and then did you have to report to any MK or ANC members in your area?

MR MOHALE: It is natural, I had on arrival to report to them, but apparently my brother-in-law, he told me that he had the connections and he would arrange for the people to come and he would introduce me to them, and that was done, those people were Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe.

ADV SIBANYONI: So if a person says who was your Commander, did you have a specific Commander after you returned to Tembisa?

MR MOHALE: I had a specific Commander. After I had returned yes, my Commander was Patrick Thwala. I was received to him in the underground structures. But that, I want to put it clear, that did not deny me a right to engage in any political activity as long it stays within the principles and policies of the African National Congress.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, maybe a last question, when you were instructed to go and kill Mr Songo, didn't you find it strange that it is a person whom you know and who knows you very well, I am talking in terms of now, the risk of you being identified, didn't you find that strange maybe?

MR MOHALE: You know, in the struggle, we always find strange things. The struggle itself is a very strange struggle, people don't understand why should I be discriminated against my skin, because of my skin. That is strange, so many things, so many strange things in the struggle, so this too, it was very strange to me. It was very strange, but as I have made my point clear earlier on, that sometimes cadres found themselves in a very awkward position, you see Chief, sorry to call you Chief, but you don't mind. We found ourselves in a very awkward position, so it was very much strange and more especially somebody you know, but when coming to identification, we are proud as MK cadres to be known in the community, we are proud as MK cadres for the services, for all the sacrifices that we have made, but there is one thing that we are not proud of as MK cadres, when it involves the taking of lives. There we regret very strongly, it was never in our own initiative from the onset, even the formation of MK itself, came as initiatives taken for us by the then ruling government, we were forced to embark in armed operations.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, I have heard you. You talked about DLB's, were you ever taken to a DLB after you had returned?

MR MOHALE: Yes, the one I was introduced to at that time, it was the one I just told you.

ADV SIBANYONI: Under the bed?

MR MOHALE: Yes, under the bed. You know a DLB can be everywhere, it can be in this chair, it can be everywhere. It can be in the field, it is a broad structure.

ADV SIBANYONI: Yes. Normally we have seen the ANC, we have seen people from local structures supporting people who are applying for amnesty, if you don't know the answer, you may just say you don't know, my question is why is Mr Radebe and Mr Thwala disassociating themselves from what you did?

MR MOHALE: I think where they have gone wrong initially, when the whole process started, when they were expected to tell the truth, so they lied, so now they have decided that they should stick to that. In a way they have told the people lies, now consciously they know that should we dare, should we dare now change all of a sudden our characters as a movement, would be - they would suffer discredit, they will suffer discredit.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, you have answered me. Lastly, you never had any personal grudge, any malice against Mr Namane nor Mr Songo, you had never had problems with them before?

MR MOHALE: No, I had never. I never had problems with, I don't know how to put it.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, you have answered me, thank you.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Just two things, I didn't catch your answer clearly when you were asked on your return from exile back into the country, where did you report?

MR MOHALE: Could I please rephrase that? On my arrival inside the country, I arrived at my brother-in-law's place, house, that is he is married to my sister. On my arrival there, in fact, he is the one, you must remember the Truth Commission should recall that my brother-in-law, he is the one who gave me connections with MK structures. When I arrived inside the country, I told him the whole situation that I have arrived, this was the situation, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. I must meet the structures. It is important, it is vital. He then said that that was not a problem, "I will connect you with the structures, I am familiar with them, they are Patrick Thwala and Tabiso Radebe, they are the ones who are in charge of the MK structures", and surely it wasn't long, I was introduced to the structures inside the country. I had made my point clear to them, hence I was integrated to the structures, to the underground MK structures.

MR LAX: Yes. You didn't go and report at Shell House or talked to the MK people at Shell House to find out where you should be deployed, if there was a deployment they wanted for you, which would have been normal in the circumstances?

MR MOHALE: The structures that are there locally, they are democratically elected structures, so militarily it is conducive and it made sense, it is politically correct, militarily correct to report before the immediate structures, I could not just jump to the Shell House. They would question "don't you have structures locally, don't you have MK structures locally", so I was received by MK local structures and I was satisfied by that. I trusted them that surely they were MK structures, they are existing, they are really existing, they are there. But I would also go to, I used to go to Shell House, I used to go there arranging our grants because we have arrived inside the country, apparently there were grants that were given to exiles, not necessarily MK structures. My Commander ...

MR LAX: That was precisely the reason why I asked the question in the first place. It is because I am familiar with the whole returned exile structure.

MR MOHALE: So you are answered there.

MR LAX: Well, I am answered to some extent in the sense that...

MR MOHALE: To what extent are you now answered?

MR LAX: You have given an answer, but it doesn't mean that I necessarily have to be satisfied with it, but be that as it may. You have given an answer and I have heard you.

MR MOHALE: I agree with you.

MR LAX: Obviously you would have then registered at Shell House to receive the grants that were due to returned exiles?

MR MOHALE: Yes, otherwise I would not have got my grants.

MR LAX: Precisely. Mr Thwala, after the Namane incident, and you have indicated that through Radebe to him, he was the sort of Overall Commander?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: He made it clear to you that you should leave the area?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: And yet you continually came back to the area?

MR MOHALE: Could I respond to that? Could I please respond to that? Here is the soldier, you put a soldier in the underground, you don't provide him means for survival, food, logistics, there is one thing that, I mean Patrick Thwala should understand, that a stomach has no experience, yes, appetites do have experience, we have experience of appetites that "you know, I feel like eating, I feel like eating", but when coming to hunger, hunger has no experience. Hunger has no experience, so I was forced to get out of the underground and go back to Tembisa and report that "listen Patrick Thwala, this is the situation. Apparently the comrades, the underground, there is no food and nothing, could you please do something, please arrange", because the comrades whom I am living with in the underground, they are starting to complain themselves that the local structures, the MK structures, they don't liaise with us any more, each time we consult with them they are encountering problems, they will respond to us and all that, so I was forced to get out of the underground. My brother-in-law, I would go down and go to the extent of bothering the family, asking them to please arrange for something R50-00, R20-00 so that I could have something to eat, I could have petrol and all that. That was the situation. You cannot take a soldier and say "sit here, this is the underground". It is illogic, it isn't practical, it does not make sense. It does not make sense. Let them come out, let them be honest, for a change, let them be honest for a change. That is all I am asking for, that is all I am begging.

MR LAX: You have answered part of my question.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: The second part of that question is clearly you had no joy from Thwala because you had to keep coming back, why didn't you go above his head, why didn't you go to Shell House and tell them your predicament as many others did?

MR MOHALE: You know the loyalty I had in them, I think now I realise it was a blind loyalty. It was a blind loyalty, because I think if I would do that, ultimately I would have looked as a betrayal, so I trusted them. I just hope that finally they would address this issue, finally they would address this issue, finally they would do that. So that brought me where I am today, that hope brought me where I am, the trust that maybe things would change, maybe things would change. Here I am, I ended - are you answered?

MR LAX: Yes, I hear you, I hear you. You seem from your evidence to have had some doubts as to the correctness of the orders to kill Mr Songo. For example you indicate that you were relieved when Simon and Ashley both could tell you that in fact Songo was known and he was not liked by the community, in fact they were unhappy about what he was doing, and that came out in your evidence, have I understood that correctly?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I was relieved. You used the words relieved, that I was relieved.

MR LAX: Yes, I am paraphrasing you because you had a long story, I am trying to just put it in simple terms. You gained confirmation for your doubts by their expression and confirmation of the fact that he was a problem in the community.

MR MOHALE: Yes, but then gaining confirmation, I gained confirmation, it was confirmed to me by them, that does not, we cannot mention it too ...

MR LAX: Just answer my question simply, did you have doubts or didn't you? Yes or no?

MR MOHALE: I didn't have doubts, I trusted. As I mentioned before that I trusted my leaders, I trusted them before and I still trust them now.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MOHALE: But with the overall thing that has just erupted in the passed four years, three years, then I know that what I (indistinct) leaders, they were actually opportunists, people who have come to the ranks of the movement to abuse cadres and get their way up to the top.

MR LAX: Yes, I have heard that.

MR MOHALE: This whole situation took place there.

MR LAX: I have heard that. I have heard that.

MR MOHALE: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: The final point that I want to put to you and just ask about is this, Tleane wasn't an MK person, not by any stretch of the imagination, you will concede that?

MR MOHALE: I concede that.

MR LAX: You took on an instruction to perform an operation on his behalf at what you understood to be, his mandate in direct contradiction to your orders from Thwala, which were to leave the area, to make yourself scarce because of the risk to your comrades? Why did you do that?

MR MOHALE: No, I will go back to history. Every combatant is a compatriot, and every compatriot is a compatriot, every compatriot is a compatriot in the struggle. Mandela himself he was accountable to Chief Luthuli. Chief Luthuli, he was not a trained MK combatant, but he was accountable to him. The initiative that was taken by MK, it was the innocent masses, the poor who sent the message that "listen people, we need to take arms now and defend ourselves". Those were the ordinary people, those were not trained cadres, who took the initiative that the armed struggle should be formed. That was the message that we got from the people. People who did not receive any military training, but they finally decided that enough is enough, we can not stomach apartheid any more. So they sent in (indistinct), Alli is not an exception. Alli, he was a member of the community and not just an ordinary member, not just an ordinary member, a President of SANCO and people had trust in him, just as I trusted him.

MR LAX: Yes, but you are a trained cadre, Mr Mohale, you are a disciplined cadre and you went against your direct orders. That is all I am trying to understand.

MR MOHALE: My orders, I was never told that "listen we have SANCO, we have our alliance, you will not receive orders from him".

MR LAX: No, your orders were quite plain and simple, go to kwaNdebele, go to kwaMshangu, get out of the area.

MR MOHALE: Yes, but then they could not provide food.

MR LAX: Not go and engage in another operation.

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: That is all that I want to understand. I am not saying that you had the right or didn't have the right to trust Mr Tleane.

MR MOHALE: Okay.

MR LAX: It is just, why did you go against a direct order as a soldier?

MR MOHALE: The direct order was go to kwaNdebele.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR MOHALE: Fine, I agree with it, it was a direct order, go to kwaNdebele. But then in the process, the order was not followed up, a real Commander, a true Commander follows his order so if you are a Commander, then you make orders, then you don't follow your orders, then cadres, soldiers will jump out of the underground and take initiatives and of course, that initiative as long as it falls within the commanding structures, the policy framework, principles of Umkhonto weSizwe, ANC, then it hampers no cause. So what I did, I had to survive. You know eating food, is one of the basic human rights in the movement.

MR LAX: Yes, you have told us this already, you have told us this already. The simple final point I want to say to you is this, it seems to me from hearing what you said, that you chose to obey some instructions and you chose to disobey other instructions, either because of the exigencies of the situation or for whatever other reason.

MR MOHALE: If I can say to you, if I put it in simple terms, by exigencies you mean the pressing matters?

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR MOHALE: Precisely so I understand, so when you say the pressing matters, we should not focus on the exigencies on one area, we should draw the overall situation and analyse it constructively, so when you analyse it constructively, surely it is objective of cadres to go down to the Commander and ask whether are they still, are you still in their mind, do they still follow their orders. So if at all that is a crime, that was a crime that I did, by going to my Commanders and having myself heard to them, and actually voice out my grievances to them that "listen, this is the grievances", if that is wrong, then I would like to apologise to them. I would like to reconcile with them, my Commanders, I would like to reconcile with them and say "listen, I have done you wrong, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, then", but surely you cannot just say "listen, I have done wrong", when you have not done wrong? I am not in the wrong, what I did, it was expected of cadres, someone who is hungry.

MR LAX: Where were you staying at the time that you were working on this mission around Mr Songo?

MR MOHALE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR LAX: You see you came back from kwaNdebele?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: And then you then bumped in to Alli and you then commenced working on this operation?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR LAX: Where were you staying at that time?

MR MOHALE: I was staying with my brother-in-law.

MR LAX: So, you didn't stay in a separate place under cover or hide away, or whatever, you were in the same place?

MR MOHALE: No, I was in the same place, I was living there. Sometimes I would sleep home, sometimes I would sleep at comrades, other comrades' places.

MR LAX: Yes, but you carried on as normal?

MR MOHALE: It was not normal, the whole situation was tense. You must understand that Patrick Thwala in fact didn't expect me to be there at that point, so it was not normal, I cannot call it normal. It was not normal then, it is not normal now.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mohale, when you were repatriated, were you given any instructions in regard to what you should do when you re-enter the country?

MR MOHALE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: There were no instructions as to where you should be reporting, what course of action you should undertake?

MR MOHALE: No, no, I was not given any instructions. You must understand that when I left Tanzania, when I left Tanzania, as I made mention before, that I was serving, I was deployed, I was given an official position in Dar Es Salaam at our offices, Dar Es Salaam, the then Chief Representative in Dar Es Salaam was (indistinct), so I was serving in the Immigration Department which falls under Security in the MK.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOHALE: So, most of us when we returned, we returned as civilians, not - we came wearing, we came wearing civilian clothes, only those who were still in control bases, they came back as - full - in combat, but they were not allowed to enter carrying weapons with them. There was no specific directions that I had received prior my leaving exile.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the understanding amongst the returnees once they re-entered the country as to re-integrating themselves, was there a general understanding that the returnees would re-integrate into the local structures, carry on with the struggle work and so on?

MR MOHALE: The general understanding, it was in a way in between, it was in a way in between. I am saying in between, one we were not satisfied the way we came inside the country, I mean we had come back into the country that was still oppressed, we had come back into the country that was still riddled with apartheid. We had not come back to a free country, of which one of our basic aims as a movement, it was to liberate our people and more especially basically MK, we had the feeling that the regime had gone over bounds in fact. In a way we were still not satisfied about the whole situation, but in the long run we managed to integrate in the process, with the local structures and all that, but this, as I have mentioned before, surely it was a dilemma situation, but finally at least our people, they managed to calm us and we understood the whole situation and we integrated properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one other thing, when Mr Thwala met you back in the township, what was his attitude when he saw you back there?

MR MOHALE: He was happy, he was grateful. Just as Tabiso did, like any cadres in the country, they were happy. Patrick Thwala was happy and he accepted me and in fact he even briefed Tabiso that he had arranged with Tabiso that my security is a priority. Apparently our cadres were subject to assassinations. Apparently I understand that not more than a few months our community would find themselves burying our cadres and all that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I take this just a step further, just a little bit further on in time.

MR MOHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After he had arranged for you to be taken to kwaNdebele, at that stage, when he met you again in the township, Mr Thwala, what was his attitude then?

MR MOHALE: I must admit that his attitude was not favourable. He was always against my presence in Tembisa.

CHAIRPERSON: He just didn't want you there?

MR MOHALE: He didn't want me in Tembisa. According to him I was not supposed to be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Knopp, have you got any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Mr Chairperson, might I put to the applicant the passages which, some passages which appear in Thwala's statement, in the Bundle, pages 24 and 25 and ask him to identify them?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Might I read out the passages? Just listen to these passages, paragraph 4, this is now Patrick Thwala's statement

"... immediately after my return, I acclimatised myself with the local political scenario and I was later co-opted into the Tembisa ANC Branch in 1992. During 1992 I also assisted in the establishing of local Tembisa MK structures, I served in the Commanding Structure of the MK Tembisa local."

Is that one of the passages, Mr Mohale, is that one of the passages?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: Right. Paragraph 5

"... the objective of establishing an MK structure was to co-ordinate activities of MK local soldiers, this was a national position of the ANC and all Branches were instructed to co-ordinate the activities of the returned MK members."

Is that another passage?

MR MOHALE: Yes.

MR KNOPP: And in paragraph 7

"... I only know Linda as one of the local MK members. I met him during co-ordination of MK members, while I was still in the Commanding Structure. Linda, like any other member, were accountable to MK command structure in terms of the rules."

MR MOHALE: Yes, I am satisfied.

MR KNOPP: Are those the passages that you referred to?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I was referring to.

MR KNOPP: Thank you. No further re-examination.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. Mr Mohale, you are excused, thank you.

MR MOHALE: Yes, thank you very much. Sorry, please I would like to shake hands with the victims' families.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You know, I am going to ask the representatives and everybody involved, to arrange that once we have adjourned at the end of the day. You will just have to hold on, we will do that once we are adjourned. All right?

MR MOHALE: Yes, I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: But for the moment, you are excused from giving further evidence.

MR MOHALE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knopp, have you got any other witnesses?

MR KNOPP: Mr Chairman, there is another witness here, Ashley Sesing. I have never seen him before, I haven't consulted with him. When I appeared in the High Court trial for the applicant, I only came in half way through the trial, after my predecessor Counsel had withdrawn from the case. At that stage Ashley Sesing had already completed his evidence, so that is why I have never consulted or seen him. When I came here this morning, he wasn't at the tribunal early this morning, I heard after lunch that he had now come to attend. I would like the opportunity to consult with him and then consider my position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. How long do you think it will take you to do that?

MR KNOPP: It is difficult to say that, I also need to take instructions from the applicant and analyse the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Mtanga, are you intending to lead the evidence of the witnesses that you referred to?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, to have their evidence on our record, I intend to call them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, those three that you referred to in your questioning?

MS MTANGA: Mr Tleane, Radebe and Mr Thwala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any evidence that you intended to present?

MS VILAKAZI: My instructions were that with regard to the testimony of the applicant, there wasn't going to be any evidence led by any witnesses, but now that Mr Tleane, the three gentlemen are going to be called in, I would have to take instructions with regard to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VILAKAZI: I cannot say at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not sure?

MS VILAKAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But as of up to this point, you hadn't instructions to lead any evidence, but it might, those instructions might change?

MS VILAKAZI: Yes, that is my position.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes, we would obviously not be able to complete this hearing today. We are always concerned about loosing time in the process, because we normally operate under tremendous pressure here, and we are not quite at the conventional hour for adjournments, for adjourning. Would you suffer any prejudice if we were to listen to the evidence that Ms Mtanga was to present at this stage and you can use the time after we have adjourned, to consider your position?

MR KNOPP: I have no objection, I apologise that we cannot finish today, but I did anticipate that one day wouldn't be enough and I informed officials of the TRC that in all probability, one day wouldn't be sufficient.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you seem to have been right.

MR KNOPP: I have no objection if we intercede other evidence at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as I have said, you know, we attempt to be fair to all the parties in the procedure that we follow, but you know, we are not as bound as a court of law, so we have a fair degree of flexibility in the process.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, I think we are going to do that, I would hate to adjourn at this stage and loose out the rest of the sitting time that we have this afternoon, at least.

MR KNOPP: Mr Chairman, might the applicant be present whilst the other evidence is presented?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. He is more than entitled to be, yes.

MR KNOPP: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I was just going to ...

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot hear?

MS MTANGA: We couldn't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't hear me. Perhaps we should put these things on. Would you be in a position to present the evidence of the witnesses that you asked to present?

MS MTANGA: The three witnesses?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I can go ahead.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are going to do that, otherwise we are going to be loosing out on the rest of the time that we have this afternoon. Mr Knopp hasn't seen the other possible witness, he is not even sure whether he might be calling him. We are not sure what is going to happen, but in the meantime he doesn't seem to have any objection to us listening to the rest of the testimony and coming back to him.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, what I can do is to lead the evidence of Tabiso Radebe and Pat Thwala and then leave out Mr Tleane until Ashley has given his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Ms Vilakazi, I assume that you don't have any objection to the procedure that we intend to follow?

MS VILAKAZI: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, under those circumstances, Mr Knopp, we are going to hear the other testimony, subject to your consulting with the possible other witness and being given an opportunity if you want to present his evidence, to do so.

MR KNOPP: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, who would be the first of the two?

MS MTANGA: The first person I would like to call would be Mr Tabiso Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Would Mr Radebe come forward please. Ms Mtanga, where should he be sitting, which microphone should he be using?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we won't have a third microphone for him this side, or unless ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is that one working? Is that microphone working there. All right, I think let him stay there, then we don't disrupt the proceedings. Mr Radebe, which language would you wish to speak in? Perhaps you must put the headphones on? What language would you wish to speak in?

MR RADEBE: I would speak English.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. I want you to stand to take the oath please, but first give us your full names for the record?

MR RADEBE: Tabiso Richard Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Tabiso, what is your second name, sorry?

MR RADEBE: Tabiso Richard.

CHAIRPERSON: Richard?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

TABISO RICHARD RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: That is fine, thank you, please sit down. Yes,

Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be allowed to hand over a copy of the Bundle to Mr Radebe? Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, will you tell this Committee what sort of employment are you doing, where are you employed?

MR RADEBE: Okay, presently I am running a project called TeleCentre, which I got through the Department of Telecommunications. I am self-employed as a manager in that project.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us your brief background about your involvement in MK, that is in exile and when you came back here?

MR RADEBE: Okay. I joined MK in 1983, I left the country in 1984, I received a crash-course in Botswana in 1994, early January, then I was sent back into the country to form MK structures. And then my instruction when I left Botswana, I had to consult every six months for upgrading, so that I upgrade the courses that I have acquired. In 1980 - was involved in operations from 1984, 1985 and in 1986, I went out of the country because some of the activities I was involved in, got exposed and then I was supposed to leave the country. When I was outside, I was appointed to be the Chief of Security and Intelligence, I had to come back inside the country, because then there was communications break-down - some MK structures in the country because of the raids which took place in 1985 in Botswana. I came back and I was deployed at Natalspruit. My task was then Chief of Intelligence, I had to set up Intelligence networks.

MS MTANGA: I am sorry to interrupt you, in which year were you deployed at Natalspruit?

MR RADEBE: In 1986.

MS MTANGA: You can go ahead.

MR RADEBE: So I have been operating there, we set up structures from Natalspruit down to Ratanda, that means the whole of the East Rand. In 1987, early 1987, I went back outside the country. Then I upgraded my courses on Security Intelligence and I came back in the country. On my first day when I arrived, I heard that there was a problem at home, because when I left the country, I was not exposed in Tembisa per se. I had to go back to see my family. Unfortunately I was arrested, then that is 1987, I stayed in detention for the whole year because they said they were suspecting that I was involved with illegal activities and then in 1988 I came out of the prison. I went back home, but under restrictions. My restrictions were that I had to sign in the morning seven o'clock, sign two o'clock and sign six o'clock, three times a day. Because I was involved in the Intelligence networks, I received information that one of our cadres who were operating somewhere in Natalspruit, was arrested. Then he revealed some names, and my name was part of those people. Then I was instructed then by my unit members, because they felt that I might expose other cadres, then I left the country, I went back to Lusaka. In Lusaka I stayed the whole year, 1988, 1989 I came back into the country again, continued with my work as an Intelligence Officer networking, and then in late 1989 again, we - some of the units that I was co-ordinated with throughout the East Rand, didn't have funds, so I had to leave again, leave the country and try to organise funds. Then I left the country, December 1989. And then when I was outside, I stayed until during 1990. Fortunately then the country was - the government of the day then, the de Klerk government, they announced that they are unbanning the ANC, then immediately I was instructed to come back quickly into the country, so that we help in preparing the coalition so that when the leadership comes in, we know the security situations and we advise them on what is happening on the ground. I cam back in the country then, in 1990. When I arrived, there was a problem then, because then the government had planned to discredit the ANC and in that plan, when the ANC arrived, the leadership arrived, they discovered that the plan is not working, then they decided to embark on a total onslaught, assassinating cadres of the ANC. I decided to be park, actually I participated then in the protection of our leaders when they arrived. Then in 1990, then I got arrested in a roadblock, they found me in possession of a sub-machine gun and explosives. Then I was, I attended trial for - actually I was charged under Section 29 for nine months, during 1990 and then around during September, I was sentenced to 18 years, six years suspended, 12 years, then I went to prison. I stayed 1990 and in 1991 early, around May, I was granted amnesty by the then President de Klerk. Then I came out of the prison. I went back to home, I started staying at home. I stayed for three days, then I was attacked by unknown people, I was shot and then I went back to underground while I was injured. Then during the underground, when I felt that I was feeling better, I went back to Natalspruit where I rejoined my units. By then, then the orders were issued already by the ANC that actually an agreement was signed, that is the cessation of fire, that no underground structures will carry operations since the negotiations are starting. Since from then, all our members, I went throughout East Rand instructing our units to stop operating until further notice. I came back and then some of the leaders approached me in the ANC, especially comrade Chris Hani, the problem was that most of the leaders were not protected, so they wanted me to sort of appoint other cadres who can participate ...

MS MTANGA: Sorry Mr Radebe, can I interrupt you.

MR RADEBE: Sure.

MS MTANGA: You have just mentioned that orders were out already that no underground structures would carry out operations?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is military operations.

MS MTANGA: Could you just clarify what underground structures, because you had indicated earlier on that there were no underground MK structures at that time? What do you mean by underground?

MR RADEBE: Yes, as I indicated earlier on that we have been involved with structures in the MK from 1983, up to 1990, when I got arrested, and then during that time, the ANC signed an agreement with the government. All structures which were attached to the structures that I am referring to, which has a name anyway in the underground, all ANC, I think fortunate enough TRC has been dealing with such cases of MK, all MK structures had names, unless if you didn't participate within the underground structures of the ANC, you won't know that structures have names, that was for the reason that when we have carried operations, when we send back reports, we send them under those names, we say "Operation so and so was carried by such and such a unit". Our units had names, no unit operated without a name, and then in terms of combat units, no individual conducted acts or any activity, not being a member of the unit. Our units composed of three members. There will be a Commander, a Political Commissar and a Treasurer of that unit, all the time, all our units were like that, and until today, they are still traceable. If the ANC is approached, the ANC will be able to say "yes, Tabiso Radebe was Chief of Security and Intelligence in such and such a unit". I don't know whether I have managed to clear the issue of the structures. That is the structures that I am referring to.

MS MTANGA: Okay, can you just give me, you said each unit would consist of a Commander, a Political Commissar and what else?

MR RADEBE: And a Treasurer of that unit.

MS MTANGA: All right, you can go ahead.

MR RADEBE: So, I have lost, I am lost.

MS MTANGA: You said you were part of this, you had given orders that all these underground structures wouldn't carry out operations as a result of the agreement signed by the ANC with the government.

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: And then how did you get involved in the Tembisa, you were telling us about your involvement with MK and I was hoping that you would come to the point where you tell us how did you get involved with the Tembisa MK structures.

MR RADEBE: Yes, when I was sentenced again, when I came back in 1992, when I was requested by the leadership to hand over sort of, submit a list of people who can come in and work as bodyguarding for our leaders, then we appointed some people who went in and worked there. I was responsible for those people, who were working with our leaders. Then some of them working with comrade Baba Sisulu. Every day in the evening, my task was to go and collect those comrades and come back with them, and then, these people were moving around with the sub-machine guns. During 1992 when I came from collecting these comrades, we were stopped in a roadblock and then when they searched the car, they found those firearms, then I had to take responsibility as the person who is responsible for those people, who were responsible for the guarding of the leadership. Then I took responsibility of those guns, hence I was sentenced again for a second time, for 12 years imprisonment. That was 1992 and then I was given bail during 1992, I think it was - I don't remember the month, but I stayed three months, around February/March there, I was given bail. Then when I arrived, I found that in the township, in Tembisa, because when I was given bail, I had to go back to Tembisa, I found that an MK structure, a formal MK structure under the banner of the ANC was formed where all the members have to re-register because then there was this preparation for getting the grants from the ANC. We had to go to the local office and re-register so I went to the local office and reported and registered myself there. That is where for the first time, I saw Linda Mohale. That for the first time I saw Linda Mohale, in 1992, at the offices of MK. Then I was attending trial. Unfortunately there, somewhere around July, I was sentenced for 12 then for a second time, then I went to prison. Then I was released in 1995, in May, on the 10th somewhere there, and then when I was released, I went to work with one security company as a private investigator, then while I am working there with armed response, I saw the police coming, they came to, they said to me "there is one person, do you know this guy", they had his photo, they said "do you know this guy", I said "yes, I know I think". They wanted to know "when did you first see this guy" and then I told them "in the ANC offices somewhere in Tembisa, I know him, that is an MK member". That is how I knew about this case, then they said "this guy is implicating you", you see. What I can say in short, okay, let me not diverge, because you said I must just tell my history, so that is my history in short.

MS MTANGA: Okay. You have heard the evidence of the applicant that he says he first met you at George Bila's place where he was introduced to you by George Bila, do you deny that you met him for the first time at that house?

MR RADEBE: Yes, no, he is lying, it is not true.

MS MTANGA: Were you ever at George Bila's house in the presence of Mr Mohale, the applicant?

MR RADEBE: No.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence, your evidence on how the MK units operated, you mentioned this Commander, Political Commissioner and a Treasurer who would form part of that unit, was this at the time you were outside the country, or did this carry on even at the time when you came into the country?

MR RADEBE: That carried on until 1990 when I got arrested and until when the ANC issued orders that all structures must cease fire.

MS MTANGA: Is it your evidence that after the ceasefire or after the announcement of the ceasefire by the ANC, no MK structures or cadres carried out operations or operations that would be regarded as legitimate by the ANC?

MR RADEBE: Exactly, no.

MS MTANGA: All right. On page 22 of the Bundle in front of you, that is an affidavit signed by you before the police in - that was signed on the 19th of November 1996, that is from page 22 to page 23, do you recognise this affidavit?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: And you agree that that is your signature at the bottom there?

MR RADEBE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Okay. Chairperson, this ends my leading of the evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Knopp, have you got any questions for this witness?

MR KNOPP: Mr Chairman, the applicant seems to be unwell, may he be excused if he wishes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mohale, if you are not well, then we will excuse you, you are not compelled to stay present.

MR MOHALE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knopp?

MR KNOPP: Mr Chairman, might I reserve my cross-examination or must I proceed now?

CHAIRPERSON: Ideally we wanted to use up as much time as possible, you are not in a position to proceed immediately? I think then we had best adjourn the proceedings, if you are not in a position to proceed, then it doesn't make any sense.

MR KNOPP: Yes, I feel a bit uncomfortable putting questions without the applicant next to me, and he seems very emotional at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps you must speak to him and tell him that, he has been in court, it is not the first time that he hears evidence being given, you know. It is in his interest to enable you to deal with the matter, to his best advantage. So really you should perhaps just speak to him quite sternly, you know and tell him that of course these are important proceedings from his perspective.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he's got to make it possible for you to assist him.

MR KNOPP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Under those circumstances we will have to adjourn the proceedings, we are not able to carry on at this stage. The matter is obviously taking a bit longer than we anticipated, but that is how it goes. We do our best to try and arrange schedules and hearings, rolls, that will be as convenient as possible to everybody who is interested but often of course in practice, some of them don't work out exactly the way we anticipated. We will have to adjourn this particular application until tomorrow morning when we will reconvene here at nine o'clock to continue with the testimony of Mr Radebe. Mr Radebe, will you also see that you are here in time for us to be able to start at nine o'clock tomorrow morning?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will now adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS