ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed to hear the amnesty application of Wiseman Nzibanzi Qhalo, amnesty reference AM1096/96.
The Panel is constituted as will be apparent from the record. On behalf of the applicant, Ms Tanzer. Would you just put yourself on record please.
MS TANZER: Thank you, Chair. My name is Goldie Tanzer and I represent the applicant in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: My name is Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I will be assisting the next-of-kin of the victim, that's Mr John Maduna - sorry, Mr Solomon Maduna.
CHAIRPERSON: Solomon Maduna?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Tanzer, do you want your client to be sworn in?
MS TANZER: Thank you, I do, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Qhalo, can you hear the interpretation on your headset? Alright, now please switch on your microphone with touching the red button there. Now I'm going to ask you to please just stand. Your full names are Wiseman Mzibanzi Qhalo, is that right?
WISEMAN MZIBANZI QHALO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Yes, Ms Tanzer.
EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Qhalo, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?
MR QHALO: ...(no English interpretation)
MS TANZER: Mr Qhalo, can you tell this Committee when you were born, the date of your birth.
MR QHALO: In 1961, on the 10th.
MS TANZER: Mr Qhalo, you completed a bundle or a bundle was signed by you, which is pages 1 to 53, is that correct, have you seen this bundle before?
MR QHALO: Yes.
MS TANZER: Now you pointed out to me that there were several errors in the bundle regarding certain information, is that correct?
MR QHALO: That is correct.
MS TANZER: I'll beg the Committee's indulgence and just go through these errors at the outset, so we don't cause any prejudice to Mr Qhalo's application.
Firstly, the identity number at number 4 on page 2 of the bundle, is incorrectly reflected, is that correct?
MR QHALO: I've given them the ID number but I'm not sure whether it is the right one.
MS TANZER: Well for the record and the Committee I would like to record that his ID number is 610628575. There was an 8 there and it should be a 5 - 4080.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS TANZER: Now on page 3, where it asks you to furnish the further particulars, right, regarding the acts and the nature thereof, alright, at number 2 you say that the act took place in August 1994, is that correct?
MR QHALO: That is correct.
MS TANZER: No, is it not correct that the offence took place in March of 1994? The offence of which you have been convicted.
MR QHALO: It happened in March in 1994.
MS TANZER: So in fact it's incorrect. For the Committee's reference, page 3 at number 2.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got that.
MS TANZER: Okay.
Now ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: In fact Mr Qhalo has corrected that himself. He rectified it himself, he wrote something here. There's a document somewhere here that I recall where he set it straight, so we've got the correct date in any case. But proceed with the others, let's see is there's anything that might prejudice him.
MS TANZER: Mr Chair, the letter that you got he did not sign and he has not had sight of that, that is why I'm putting it before the Committee at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Well let's see if there's anything of substance that really prejudices him.
MS TANZER: Okay.
On page 5 of the bundle reference - when you are asked about your justification regarding such offences associated with a political motive, a summary is basically presented to the Committee of the offences with a political motive. Was this summary the summary that you gave to the person who took this information down, or is this information that the person wrote himself?
MR QHALO: I told him my statement and then he wrote down, so I don't know what he wrote because I cannot write.
MS TANZER: Did he read the statement back to you?
MR QHALO: Yes, he did.
CHAIRPERSON: But you'll tell us in your evidence now what had really happened? This is not your handwriting in this document here, but you will now when you testify, when you tell us what happened you will tell us the truth, is that right?
MR QHALO: That is correct, I'll tell the truth.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, Ms Tanzer.
MS TANZER: Right. There's mention made of a Commander Smelo Magutswane. Was there a Commander Smelo Magutswane at the squatter camp in 1994?
MS TANZER: He was not the Commander, he was one of the members of the SDUs, he was not the Commander.
MS TANZER: Now you also make mention of the DF Malan Accord and the Groote Schuur Minutes, do you know anything about these Minutes or this Accord?
MR QHALO: No, I don't know anything about those minutes.
MS TANZER: Just for the Committee's convenience, on page 6 once again there's reference to Smelo Magutswane which he states is incorrect information.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS TANZER: On page 7, is this your signature?
MR QHALO: Yes, it's my signature.
MS TANZER: That is page 7, Commissioner.
On page 10 there is a letter that is sent to the Committee. Is this letter written by yourself?
MR QHALO: No.
MS TANZER: Is it your signature?
MR QHALO: No, it's not my signature.
MS TANZER: So you can't verify the information that's set out therein?
MR QHALO: Because this is not my signature, so I cannot confirm what is written here.
MS TANZER: Thank you, Chair.
During 1994, were you a member of a political organisation?
MR QHALO: Yes.
MS TANZER: Can you tell this Committee which organisation?
MR QHALO: The ANC, I was a member of the SDU.
MS TANZER: Where were you staying during 1994?
MR QHALO: At Nswaledi squatter camp.
MS TANZER: Were you employed while you were staying at this squatter camp?
MR QHALO: Yes, I was employed.
MS TANZER: What were you doing?
MR QHALO: I was doing carpentry.
MS TANZER: And where were you working?
MR QHALO: Randburg.
MS TANZER: What motivated you to join the ANC?
MR QHALO: The reason why I joined ANC is because we were killed by the members of the IFP and we were also fighting for our country so that we cannot be oppressed. That is why I joined the ANC.
MS TANZER: Did you hold any position with the ANC?
MR QHALO: No.
MS TANZER: And at the Baroleng squatter camp, did you hold any position?
MR QHALO: I was a member of the Self Defence Unit.
MS TANZER: What did your duties include as being a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR QHALO: It was to protect the community from being killed by the members of the IFP. We were protecting the community.
MS TANZER: Do you remember who was the Commander or leader of the Self Defence Unit at that time during 1994?
MR QHALO: Yes, I do know him, I do know the leader. There was a leader at the squatter camp.
MS TANZER: Do you remember his name?
MR QHALO: I know his name, it was Xholile Hlomendlini. He was the Chairperson.
MS TANZER: Is it correct that this man is also known as Chairperson, Chairman?
MR QHALO: Yes, he was the Chairman of the squatter camp.
MS TANZER: Now can you tell this Committee what happened on the 28th of March 1994? Can you tell them briefly the events that led up to your conviction that night.
MR QHALO: On the 28th there was going to be a march, the IFP march and we heard that there was a shooting, the IFP people were shooting. We were patrolling as Self Defence Unit members. At about six, others with spears were around that area, that garage. We then appeared and they ran away.
At about six, our Chairman came and he said that members of the IFP are in a kombi in a certain corner and they have spears with them. I then asked where they were and he said that they went into a shack. So he took us to the shack where the members of the IFP were. We had torches with us.
When we arrived there we knocked at the door and when they realised that we were around a candle, it was dark, the candle was not lit. We knocked again and then nobody answered. I then kicked the door. I went in and I had a torch in my hand and I had a firearm in my hand. I found them hiding in that place.
I woke them up by kicking them. I then asked them who they were, where they are coming from and whose shack is this. Because when I was looking around the shack, it was like a new shack, there was nothing inside, no furniture. They then told us that they were from an IFP march, they were hijacked by the people of the IFP. I then asked them why the IFP members didn't kill them if they were members of the ANC. One of them then said that they were from the IFP march and they were hijacked by the IFP march. I then told them that we must attack them because we don't have members of the IFP in that area.
Chairman left and then he said that they must not be attacked in that shack. I then asked where were we supposed to attack them because we found tlem in that shack. He then told us that he was going to look for a car and would take them to Orlando where they would be attacked. Chairman left and he said that we would find him next to the garage, he was going to fetch a car.
He then came back with a car. I volunteered that I would be one of the people who were going to shoot at these people. Then Chairman agreed, he said that he was also going to be part of that group who was going to attack them. There were four of us in that car, two in front and four at the back.
The drive drove the car and next to the school in Orlando we told them to get out of the car, we also got out of the car. There were two of these people and the driver and the passenger didn't get out of the car. When we arrived at a place where there is grass and it was dark at the time, I shot at one of them. He fell down and then I shot at him again. And when I looked around the other one was running away. I tried to shoot at him but he was far away. He then ran away, he managed to run away.
We then came back with Xholile Hlomendlini and we gave the Self Defence Unit members a report that one of them managed to escape, we didn't kill him. So we patrolled the whole night until the morning. I was then arrested on the 29th, on Tuesday. Because all this happened on Monday, so I was arrested on Tuesday, as I'm serving my sentence now. I was arrested in Shawelo. I was pointed by one person, but I'm not sure who that person is between the two, but there was another one who was in court and he was the one who pointed me. That is how I was arrested. That is all for now.
MS TANZER: Can you tell this Committee where you got the firearm from?
MR QHALO: The community would pop out money so that we can buy firearms, so this weapon belonged to the community.
MS TANZER: Where were the weapons kept?
MR QHALO: I kept some of the weapons, but I then got arrested and when I was released on bail, the weapons were not with me, they were with the Chairman. So when I was arrested the weapons were taken from my place and they were taken to the Chairman.
MS TANZER: Can you tell this Committee where you kept the weapons? Were they hidden or were they just kept in your shack, where were they?
MR QHALO: They were hidden in the shack, in my shack.
MS TANZER: Now on that day in question, the day of the attack, were you alert, was the squatter camp alert to any kind of attack from the IFP on that day?
MR QHALO: Yes, the Chairman used to call us to a meeting and he would tell us that as Self Defence Unit members we must protect the community when the IFP members came to attack. We must defend ourselves and protect the community from them.
MS TANZER: Did you know the persons, the deceased, and the persons you attacked that night? Had you known them before or had you seen them before the night of the attack?
MR QHALO: It was the first time I saw them in that shack.
MS TANZER: Was there any personal reason for your attacking these people?
MR QHALO: The reason why I attacked them is because they were members of the IFP and I was a member of the ANC. That was the only reason.
MS TANZER: What was the relationship like between the IFP and the ANC during 1994, can you briefly just tell the Committee that?
MR QHALO: In 1994, members of the IFP were killing members of the ANC and we were also killing members of the IFP, as it happened that day. So the situation was bad.
MS TANZER: So in fact, do you regard the attack on Hadebe and Maduna as politically motivated or was there anything personal about it?
MR QHALO: Yes, it was politically motivated because they were members of the IFP and I was a member of the ANC.
MS TANZER: Was there any personal gain or reward that you obtained from attacking these two people?
MR QHALO: No, I didn't gain anything.
MS TANZER: Is it correct that you are a married man?
MR QHALO: Yes, I'm married.
MS TANZER: Do you have a family?
MR QHALO: Yes, I have a family.
MS TANZER: Were they staying with you at the Baroleng squatter camp at the time, in 1994?
MR QHALO: Yes, they were staying with, my family was staying with me then. But I had to shacks, one was in Shawelo and I had a small baby, but I was staying with them at the time of my arrest.
MS TANZER: Can you identify any other people that took part, firstly in the attack on the shack in which the two men were found and secondly, on the attack itself when you went into the car?
MR QHALO: I was not alone, I was with people. We were there as Self Defence Units, but they didn't do anything, they didn't take part, but they were with me and I'm the one who kicked the door and when Chairman came with the car we left them behind. I then left with Chairman to go and kill these people. When we came back we gave them the report that one of them escaped. So they didn't take part, but they were there with me.
MS TANZER: Can you name the people who were in the car? Who was in the front seat, who was in the seat next to the driver? Is there anybody you can name for this Committee?
MR QHALO: Because we were known by clan names, I don't know the name of the driver, but the other person was Allie and in the back seat, it was myself and the two members of the IFP and Xholile Hlomendlini. The driver I don't know his name, but he was also residing at the squatter camp.
MS TANZER: When you questioned the two men in the shack, what language were they speaking in?
MR QHALO: They were speaking isiZulu.
MS TANZER: Have you disclosed all the relevant and material information to this Committee about your actions on this night in question?
MR QHALO: Yes, I have disclosed all the information, all the details about that night, there's nothing else I left behind.
MS TANZER: How do you feel now about your actions upon these two people, what are your feelings today about what you did that night?
MR QHALO: That is why I applied for amnesty, because what I did was influenced by the politics and even in jail we would discuss about these issues, that what we did was wrong, but they were influenced by politics. That is why I made this application to you so that I can be forgiven.
MS TANZER: Thank you, Chair, that is the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms Mtanga, have you got questions?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you.
Mr Qhalo, the person you referred to as Xholile Hlomendlini, is it the same person as who was prosecuted with you in this matter, who was then called Wellington Hlomendlini?
MR QHALO: Yes, that is the person.
MS MTANGA: My understanding of your evidence, you are saying that you acted upon information brought to you by Xholile Hlomendlini, who was then the Chairperson of the SDUs. Am I right?
MR QHALO: Yes, as I've already said, he was the Chairman of that particular place, he was the one who gave us information, that is correct.
MS MTANGA: Do you recall the evidence given by Mr Hlomendlini in court about how this incident took place?
MR QHALO: I denied this in court, that is why I made an application to the Truth Commission because I denied my actions in court, so I don't know what he said in court.
MS MTANGA: Mr Hlomendlini testified that he had been compelled or forced or coerced by you to participate in this incident because he owed you money. He had not given instructions, he acted upon your coercion that he must carry out this offence and assist you because he owed you money and he could not do otherwise but comply with what you had asked him to do. What do you say to this?
MR QHALO: That is not true, he did not owe me any money, he was the Chairperson at the squatter camp.
MS MTANGA: But according to the judgment, you had admitted that he did owe you money.
MR QHALO: I didn't admit to that because in court I denied everything. He didn't owe me any money.
MR LAX: Just give us the reference for the record.
MS MTANGA: It's page 38, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Page what, sorry.
MS MTANGA: 38 of the bundle.
MR LAX: Line?
MS MTANGA: From line 20 down.
MR LAX: Thank you.
MS MTANGA: Are you aware that Mr Hlomendlini did give this evidence that he owed you money?
MR QHALO: No, I'm not aware, it's the first time I hear about it.
MS MTANGA: The victims, Mr Hadebe and Mr Maduna, did they live with you at Nswaledi squatter camp?
MR QHALO: It was the first time I see them, that particular day. It was the first time I saw them.
MS MTANGA: Can you help us understand the situation at Nswaledi squatter camp, was the area divided into IFP and ANC, or did you all live together in one area? Were there areas that you allocated to the IFP or that were IFP only and then those that were ANC only residents?
MR QHALO: As a squatter camp there were no members of the IFP, we first saw them when they came from the rally. Everybody was belonging to the ANC at the time because you'd be given a place to stay you would be requested to show your membership card of the ANC and then you would be given a place to stay. So there were no IFP members staying in that place.
MS MTANGA: Mr Qhalo, according to the families of both Mr Hadebe and Mr Maduna, both victims lived at Nswaledi and they lived in a shack that you found them in and they ran a business of selling vegetables. What do you say to this?
MR QHALO: I would say that that is a lie because it was the first time I see them there, because I used to know all the people who were staying there. If a person came he would be taken to the meeting and then he would be shown to the people, we will be told that he was looking for a place to stay and he had a membership card of the ANC.
MS MTANGA: Did you know the - when you went to fetch them from that shack, do you know whose shack it was?
MR QHALO: I did not know whose shack it was and I also asked the Chairman because he was the one with a book whereby all the shacks were written down, so he didn't even know whose shack was that.
MS MTANGA: But Mr Qhalo, you just testified now that you knew all the residents of Nswaledi and you didn't know these two people, and yet you still can't tell me whether you knew who the owner of that shack was. Because the two people who are victims today lived in that shack at Nswaledi, and you just said you knew all the residents of Nswaledi.
MR QHALO: The reason why I'm saying this is because a meeting would be called and a person who is looking for a place to stay would come to that meeting and we would be told which number or where this person is going to stay. That is why when we arrived there I asked these people who they were, I asked the Chairman whether he knows who these people were, he didn't know and I asked whose shack was it and there was no answer for that.
MS MTANGA: My concern about your evidence, Mr Qhalo, is that at that time there was great animosity between the IFP and the ANC, especially during the time when the SDUs had to be formed, and if Mr Hadebe and Mr Maduna were indeed IFP people living in the area you would have known that a long time ago. You wouldn't have known it because of the march that had taken place in ...(indistinct). Why didn't you know these two people?
MR QHALO: That is why I'm saying I saw these people that day when I was told that they were coming from the IFP rally, that is when I knew that they were members of the IFP, and before that there were no members of the IFP in that area.
MS MTANGA: Did you see Mr Hadebe and Mr Maduna coming from the rally, did you see them specifically coming from the rally?
MR QHALO: I heard from the Chairman, he said that they got out of the kombi and they went into a certain shack. He then showed us that shack. I didn't see them.
MS MTANGA: I put it to you that according to the families of the two victims, both of them were not IFP members and in fact they were not politically affiliated. What do you say to this?
MR QHALO: If they were not members of the IFP or if they did not take part in politics, we wouldn't have killed them. Because when we asked them questions they admitted that they were members of the IFP. That is why I said that they were to be attacked.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Qhalo, was a person who is not affiliated to any political organisation, not allowed to stay at the squatter camp?
MR QHALO: We would ask where that person was coming from and we would request him to tell us in which organisation did he belong, because at that time we knew that people were from different organisations, so we didn't want to accept a person who we did not know where he belongs.
MR SIBANYONI: Now if he didn't belong to any organisation, was he not allowed to stay at the squatter camp?
MR QHALO: We would tell this person that "We are members of the ANC, if you say that you are not a member, which organisation are you going to join"? Because we wanted people who were members of the ANC. A person without a membership card of the ANC was not accepted in that area, he would be requested to go to a certain branch, get a card and then he would be given a place to stay.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MS TANZER: No re-examination, Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Qhalo, you're excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Tanzer.
MS TANZER: Mr Chair and the Honourable Committee, the offences ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other evidence that you intend to lead?
MS TANZER: Oh, I thought you asked for my submissions.
CHAIRPERSON: No.
MS TANZER: No, no other evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant?
MS TANZER: That is the case for the applicant, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Ms Mtanga, have you got any evidence that you intend to lead?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, may I be allowed just a few minutes consultation with Mr Maduna?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is it necessary for us to rise?
MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, Ms Mtanga.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will not be calling any witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Ms Tanzer, now we want to hear you.
MS TANZER IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Chair.
The offences that the applicant committed, took place during a very acrimonious period between the IFP and the ANC. Mr Chair, as you aware anyone that was suspected of being an IFP member or linked to the IFP were attacked an killed. This was - as you heard in the evidence, was a result of the relationship between the IFP and the ANC and the need for ANC comrades, the SDUs, to protect their own people because they were continuously being attacked by members of the IFP.
The attack that took place that night, as you heard from the applicant, had no personal motive whatsoever. He did not know these people, they were just suspected of being IFP members. He hadn't seen them before, they weren't people that he had a grievance with or that he had had any problem with in the past. He had learnt about their existence at the squatter camp, by the Chairperson, as he said the Chairman. As an SDU member upon the instructions of the Chairman and other SDU members in protecting their community against outsiders, especially IFP outsiders, you heard from the applicant that he did ask them when he knocked on the door and he kicked the door open, whether they were IFP members and they admitted that they were part of the IFP.
He admitted that he had lied in court at the hearing of the court case and therefore the entire court case and the judgment cannot really relate to him inasmuch as he makes a pure denial, he simply says he wasn't part of the attack and he was in bed sick at the time. In fact what he has now told the Committee, tallies to a large degree with the evidence or with the judgment of Judge Zulman(?) at the court case in the Supreme court.
You heard that there was no personal reward or gain, that he did not obtain anything out of the killing or the attack, that the attack was purely politically motivated. He made or attempted to make full disclosure of all the material facts relating to his actions.
Mr Chair, the applicant himself is a married man, he's got children, he had never had previous convictions in the past, he's not a man that had a propensity to violence or to any kind of criminal activities, he held down a job, he was a person that was living a decent life and was protecting his community. This attack that took place that night was a political attack and can only be seen as a political attack. He's not a young man, he's a man today of 39 years old. The attack took place five years ago, Mr Chair, so that would have left him in his middle 30s. And as he said, he was a man that was responsible for the keeping of the weapons even. So he had a position in the SDU, whether it was official or unofficial, he was responsible for keeping the weapons and therefore he had a certain level of responsibility as an SDU member protecting the Baroleng squatter camp against outside influence.
I therefore submit that he's made full disclosure, his application should be considered and amnesty should be granted. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Did this attack occur in Nswaledi squatter camp?
MS TANZER: This attack took place at the school outside the squatter camp. They were taken to a school, the Orlando School. As you heard from him it was just outside the squatter camp. It is in the judgment itself as well.
CHAIRPERSON: They apprehended these people in Nswaledi squatter camp.
MS TANZER: Yes, in a shack in the squatter camp, then they escorted them to a garage where they met the car with the Chairman who had arranged for the car and they drove them to the school where the offence took place.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did he stay at that time?
MS TANZER: At that time, as you heard from his evidence, he was staying at the Nswaledi squatter camp. He said he did have two shacks.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that where his family was?
MS TANZER: Yes, his wife was there. He actually - in his application his children come from - he himself comes from the Transkei and his children were staying with his mother in the Transkei. The children are actually present here today.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS TANZER: Two of them.
CHAIRPERSON: So the children were with their grandmother?
MS TANZER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: In the Transkei?
MS TANZER: Yes. And his wife was living with him at the Nswaledi squatter camp at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Ms Tanzer. Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, my instructions from the family of Mr John Maduna are - the person who attended on behalf of the family is Mr Solomon Maduna, the father of John ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS MTANGA: Yes. Mr Maduna, that is the father, is a very old person, he has difficulty in comprehending the process itself.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS TANZER: Mr Solomon, yes. He is not opposing the application according to my understanding, but he would like the Committee or the Commission to address the situation that he is in. He is very old and the victim, that is John Maduna, had three kids whom he is now bringing up and he has no finance, so he would like the Committee to assist him financially to bring up those kids and he's concerned that he is a very old person, he may not have a person to leave them with if he dies.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS MTANGA: Whose wife?
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS MTANGA: He has not indicated so, Chairperson, so I'm ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS MTANGA: For the three children, that is what he has told me.
CHAIRPERSON: ... children.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Three children.
MS MTANGA: Three children.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Solomon Maduna is responsible for the care of the children?
MS MTANGA: Yes, that is the grandchildren.
CHAIRPERSON: That is John's children?
MS MTANGA: Yes. And then for the second victim ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mtanga, have we got the details of the children?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will take the - I'm concerned that he may not even recall the dates and everything.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS MTANGA: So we may need to make a follow-up after the hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you might be able to get some names at this stage at least.
MS MTANGA: Yes, I will try, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAX: What happened to the mothers of these children?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, from what he has told me they just live with him. I didn't ascertain what happened to the mother of the children.
MR LAX: Maybe the Reparations Committee can follow that matter up in due course.
MS MTANGA: And then the second victim who was Antony Hadebe, who survived the attack, according to our investigation and a statement from his father, he passed away early this year. That is why he has not attended the hearing, but we are in possession of this statement from his father.
CHAIRPERSON: That's from a cause that is unrelated to this attack?
MS MTANGA: Unrelated to the attack, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Have we got details of his next-of-kin?
MS MTANGA: Of Mr Antony Hadebe? It's Mr Thomas Fana Hadebe.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the father?
MS MTANGA: That's the father. He is 69 years old and lives at 7A, Zone 1.
CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?
MS MTANGA: Pimville. There is a number given on the statement but I can't - I think it's 127A, but I can't clearly read it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS MTANGA: Pimville, Soweto, that is where he lives.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We have noted that. Is there anything else that you wanted to put on record or place before us?
MS MTANGA: Chair, I'm not sure if I can be allowed to place on record the information about the victim in the previous incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, alright, let us just finish off this one, then we'll recall that matter and you can put that on the record.
MS MTANGA: There's nothing else I wish to place on record on both of these victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Mtanga. Is there anything else that you wanted to add, Ms Tanzer?
MS TANZER: There is nothing I want to add, thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Your client is serving that sentence at this stage?
MS TANZER: He is serving a sentence at the Leeukop Prison, yes. 18 years, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, well thank you.
That concludes the evidence in this matter. We will have to consider the testimony and the other material that was placed before us and come to a decision on the application, which we will attempt to do as soon as circumstances permit. We will under those circumstances then reserve the decision and we will notify the parties as soon as that is available. So we reserve the decision in the matter. We thank you, Ms Tanzer for your assistance and we will excuse you.
MS TANZER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, you say that you wanted to recall the previous matter, that is Patose and others, if I remember correctly.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, the application of Patose, Msimango, Mzumbe and Hlongwane.
RECALL OF PATOSE, MSIMANGO, MZUMBE AND HLONGWANE MATTER
MS MTANGA: I had indicated on the record that Mr Johannes Selai, who is the victim in the incident, had not attended the hearing, but he did arrive during lunchtime, indicating that he went to a wrong venue. He went to Boksburg because his notice indicated that the hearing would take place at Boksburg. So there was a mis-communication there.
I however consulted with him about his attitude and position in regard to the amnesty of the four applicants and he indicated to me that he reconciled with them even at the time of the trial. So he was not coming here to oppose, he was just attending formally.
CHAIRPERSON: He's not coming to formally oppose the application, but simply just to be present.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga, we have noted that. I assume he's left, Mr Selai.
MS MTANGA: Yes, he has left, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I assume you have conveyed whatever apologies are necessary for the misunderstanding.
MS MTANGA: I did so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And I assume you've given him an indication as to what has happened with the application.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Was he happy with that situation?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, he was happy because he was concerned about the fact that at the trial a different version was given, so I explained to him what exactly the applicants said here and then he was happy with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you for your trouble, Ms Mtanga. We have noted that and that will form part of the record in the Patosi matter.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Yes, the matter that stood down from yesterday afternoon, Mohale, have the parties arrived in that matter? Mr Tleane and - yes, Mr Tleane is here. And the applicant and his legal representative? Ms Vilakazi is till here, yes.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. Yes, they are, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. Mr Knopp I see is also appearing. Are we able to proceed with that matter?
MS MTANGA: Yes, we should be able to, Chairperson. I'm not sure if we're going to adjourn for five minutes perhaps.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I'm always reluctant to adjourn, to stand down because you know five minutes has a terrible tendency to become 50 minutes, but it looks as if everybody is virtually ready.
Do you wish us to just stand down for you to arrange for people to take their seats?
MS MTANGA: I think, Chairperson, everyone is in here, so we can just go ahead.
CHAIRPERSON: Can we go ahead?
MS MTANGA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, can we then call the parties in the Mohale matter, Mr Tleane and Ms Vilakazi. Mr Knopp, is your client here? Can the Correctional Services bring Mr Mohale out. Alright, I think Mr Knopp just wants to attend to something. He says it's five minutes. I'll keep him to his word. We'll adjourn for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
