CHAIRPERSON: We will now proceed with the matter of Mohale, that stood down from yesterday afternoon. Mr Tleane was still busy giving evidence.
Mr Tleane, we remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand?
ALBERT TLEANE: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp, have you got any questions?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, before Advocate Knopp goes on with his cross-examination, can I be allowed to put a few questions to Mr Tleane?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course, Ms Mtanga. Please go ahead.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Tleane, according to the judgment in Mohale, you had been amongst people who assisted Mr Mohale in finding funding for him for his legal assistance. Why were you involved in getting the funding for Mr Mohale, or were you involved in doing so?
MR TLEANE: I was not involved in my personal capacity, Ma'am, I was involved simply by being in the leadership of the then SANCO. Mr Mohale had previously approached SANCO, Thembisa branch, as a member of SANCO by virtue of being a resident, for assistance so that he could be able to make a bail application so that he could be able to acquire an attorney.
As such the organisation felt that there was no reason to discriminate against him. He communicated with the office in Thembisa. I was already waiting in Johannesburg there. That is how I happened to be part of that arrangement, by nature of being in the leadership of the same organisation that he had approached.
MS MTANGA: Can you give us the names of the people who were also involved in getting this funding, besides yourself.
MR TLEANE: Mr George Biela was involved in that arrangement. In fact he was part of the delegation that went to speak to Mr Mohale in prison vice versa. Mr Paul Maseko, who was then the President of the Thembisa Residents Association, was also a part as well as the Branch Secretary, Mr Mandla Gumede. He was also involved there. Those are the names of the people that I can remember of the people that were involved.
MS MTANGA: Did you at any stage visit Mr Mohale in prison?
MR TLEANE: Only once, with the delegation that went to verify the request that he had made. I was in the company of the same gentlemen that I have mentioned just now.
MS MTANGA: I am not sure if I put this question to you yesterday, do you know Mr Ephrahim Mogale?
MR TLEANE: Yes, I knew Mr Ephrahim Mogale as being an activist. In the '80s we shared a cell once during the State of Emergency at Modder B Prison. He was also in the leadership I think, of the first Executive Committee of the Congress of South African Trade Unions, along with Mr - oh, I forget him, the young lion from the North. He's in Parliament now, I just forgot his name -Peter Mokaba. That is how I happen to know Mr Mogale.
MS MTANGA: Did you at any time in 1996, during the investigation of these two incidents, have contact with Mr Mogale?
MR TLEANE: Not at all, except for the visit where the delegation went to verify the request that he had made to the organisation.
MS MTANGA: We were given evidence ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry. I'm not sure that you understood the last question properly. Were you referring this Mr Mogale, or were you referring to Ephrahim Mogale?
MS MTANGA: Ephrahim.
MR TLEANE: Oh, Ephrahim.
MR LAX: Yes.
MR TLEANE: No, no, I never spoke to Mr Mogale about this matter.
MS MTANGA: And at the time these attacks took place, that is in 1992, were you ever in contact with Mr Ephrahim Mogale?
MR TLEANE: Not at all, Ma'am, not at all. I did not even know in which structures he was participating in at that stage.
MS MTANGA: You have heard the evidence of the applicant that after the murder of Songo, he was taken by you and - he was taken to Mr Mogale's care and this was carried out on your instructions, or by you communicating with Mr Mogale as an ANC at Kwandebele.
MR TLEANE: No, that is not correct, Ma'am. As far as I am concerned, I was under the impression that Mr Ephrahim Mogale lived somewhere in the Northern Province, I did not know that he had a home in Kwandebele. It was the first time to hear of this information.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Knopp, have you got any questions?
MR KNOPP: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, was there any tension between the ANC and SANCO?
MR TLEANE: Yes, there were tensions.
MR KNOPP: What was the problem?
MR TLEANE: Yesterday I indicated a part of those problems, I said when the exiles returned and those who were on Robben Island were released, some animosity began to emerge within the MDM formations in regard to who should lead the new ANC structures that were going to be launched in the township, and ever since those tensions, those animosities have actually doubled, if I may use that term.
The other reason which was not presented yesterday is that within the Civic Movement itself, this is now beyond SANCO, seeing that we are now in the new organisation that is NACO, we share a view that says beyond 1994, civil society organisations such as Civics and the Labour Movement should begin to consider you know, moving away from political party whims and government, so that they could be able to stand up and talk on the interests and aspirations of their members, without having to look back over their shoulders if the political parties are happy or not.
That is why we basically left SANCO and formed NACO, because we believed that the country needs a formidable, a powerful civil society organisation that can correctly comprehend the problems experienced by ordinary poor residents on the ground and strive to ensure that social transformation happens at a pace determined by the poor residents themselves.
MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, did you know Mr Patrick Thwala?
MR TLEANE: Yes. I started knowing Mr Patrick Thwala around 1977 or thereabouts. We were working together for a company in Elandsfontein in the Germiston area, called KSB Pumps.
In the '80s we were together in the mass democratic movement. That is how I happened to know Patrick Thwala. And during my school days I used to stay with my aunt in the same section as Patrick Thwala, that is Emangweni Section in Thembisa.
MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, did you know Mr Thabiso Radebe?
MR TLEANE: Yes, I knew Mr Thabiso Radebe also as being a member of the Mass Democratic Movement and we were also together in prison during the State of Emergency around 1986, sorry '87, somewhere there, at Modder B Prison.
MR KNOPP: And the one victim, Mr Songo, you knew him also?
MR TLEANE: Yes. I indicated yesterday that we were together at high school with Mr Songo. He was actually my classmate in the '70s, at Thembisa High. Later on he became a Councillor and I took another road. That is how I knew Mr Songo.
MR KNOPP: And that council of which he became a Councillor, was that considered an apartheid structure?
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: And then Mr Songo became involved in the Thembisa Home Seekers Association, as a leader.
MR TLEANE: Yes.
MR KNOPP: What was SANCO's attitude towards that Home Seekers Association?
MR TLEANE: It was not an organisation of significance to us, in the sense that concerned itself mainly with land invasion, while on the other hand Thembisa Residents Association concerned itself with the striving for better services to legal or lawful home owners from the municipality.
As I indicated yesterday, Mr Songo finally operated in the Ivory Park area, that is in Midrand and not in Thembisa.
MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, concerning Rev Namane's death, the other victim, how did you get to know about that victim's death?
MR TLEANE: Well Mr Namane's killing was big news in Thembisa. He had been a Civic leader in the township for some time, so obviously the matter was reported in the media, particularly the local newspaper, the Thembisan. That is when I happened to know about Mr Namane's death.
MR KNOPP: So it was the talk of the town so to speak?
MR TLEANE: Please repeat that question.
MR KNOPP: The death of the late Rev Namane was the talk of the town.
MR TLEANE: Yes in a way, yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: Was the Rev Namane aligned to the PAC?
MR TLEANE: The information that I have is that yes, he was indeed a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania. He never told me so himself but you know, that is coming from the general information that was doing the rounds in the township at that time.
MR KNOPP: In 1992, were you operating a business from your home?
MR TLEANE: It was not a business per se, I was doing what I'm doing now, I was selling a few drinks to my colleagues. My colleagues used to come in at home and so on. Just after our release from the State of Emergency, most of us were out of work and other things and it was decided that I should start selling these drinks so that when they came in it should not just be a visit, it should also compensate you know, for my livelihood. So it was not a shebeen per se, but I was serving only very, very close associates. I'm still in the process of continuing with that.
MR KNOPP: So was your house then a meeting place for political activists, if I can put it that way?
MR TLEANE: Not necessarily a meeting place, but when my colleagues came obviously there were always the issues to discuss about. Formal meetings took place at the Thembe shopping mall, that is where our offices were situated.
MR KNOPP: I want to come now to the instance concerning the motor car of Mr Mathlo.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: That's Mr Julius Mathlo.
MR TLEANE: Yes.
MR KNOPP: You acquired this motor car from Julius Mathlo ...(intervention)
MR TLEANE: On a Friday, the 21st I think, of August.
MR KNOPP: ... for the use of the applicant.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: The applicant has testified that you acquired this car for him in order to assist him with his mission, which was to eliminate the victim Songo. You've told this Tribunal something else, you've given another version to this Tribunal. What I want to canvass with you now is what you told Julius Mathlo in order to persuade him to give the car.
MR TLEANE: What is your question, Sir?
MR KNOPP: The question is, what did you tell Julius Mathlo in order to persuade him to acquire the car for the use of the applicant.
MR TLEANE: Thank you, Sir. I said to Mr Mathlo, who is the gentlemen who was at that time already over 80 years old, I told him that the vehicle was going to be used by the Civic leadership who were going to hold a meeting in town that particular weekend. The meeting was starting on Friday and it would end on Saturday and the car would be returned on Saturday.
The reason I did that was to ensure that Mr Mathlo would lend the car so that Mr Mohale could utilise it. I was concerned about the fact that if I told Mr Mathlo the truth, that Mr Mohale was actually driving his car to Standerton, which was such a long distance - and we are talking here about the Tredia, which is a very, very old car, I was sure that Mr Mathlo was not going to agree to give the car to Mr Mohale.
The other reason, the other reason that compelled me to make this statement to Mr Mathlo - in fact there were two other reasons, the one reason is that before the exiles actually returned home, the leadership of the liberation movement actually appealed to the peace-loving people of this country, those who cherished freedom and the democratisation of the country, that each and every one of us should be as helpful as possible towards those that will be returning home to fast track the process of reintegration. That was the one reason.
The other one was that in 1992, during that period, all over the country including Thembisa, there was general excitement you know, amongst the disadvantaged communities because of the fact that people were coming back home, those who were in prison were coming out and so on, there was a lot of optimism that was happening. There was excitement you know, of seeing you know, soldiers coming back home and so on, the possibility of freedom finally happening, was now becoming a reality. So there was a lot of optimism. I felt compelled as a citizen, as an activist, to do my best to try and help Comrade Mohale who had also just returned from exile. Those were the reasons that compelled me to actually make the statement that I made to Mr Mathlo.
MR KNOPP: So Mr Tleane, you concede then that you lied to Julius Mathlo in order to obtain this vehicle?
MR TLEANE: Yes, yes. I thought it was for a good cause, I still think so.
MR KNOPP: So the means justify the end. As long as the ultimate cause is good, one can do anything.
MR TLEANE: Not necessarily in that context, Sir. I think it is important to understand the mood that was prevalent at that time you know. Exiles as I've already indicated, had just come back home, the general spirit inside the country was that we needed to make sure that we welcome these people and we help them as much as possible. This is what I did. He was not the only person that had approached me. I indicated that yesterday.
Other people that came in from exile, they approached the office for financial assistance, others came in for housing purposes and so on. Some of their homes were bombed during their absence and so on. They came to our office. If we could, we tried to help those people. It was in that particular context that I helped Mr Mohale. Yes, I had to lie. During those days it was sometimes necessary to tell lies in the advancement of course of the cause. And I believe that this is exactly what was happening.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Mathlo know the applicant at all?
MR TLEANE: No, he didn't know the applicant, but I did explain to him who he was.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the applicant have a driver's licence?
MR TLEANE: I think he said he acquired on in exile, I think that is what he told me. I'm not very sure, Sir, but I think this is what he told me.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he show you anything?
MR TLEANE: No, I didn't ask him to produce - I don't remember asking him to ...(end of side A of tape) ... but I think there was a discussion about a licence and I think he said he acquired one while he was outside of the country.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Knopp?
MR KNOPP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that was the other point that I was coming to.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Sorry. I'd also thought that the end justifies the means.
MR KNOPP: You specifically told Julius Mathlo had the applicant had a valid driver's licence.
MR TLEANE: Well I can't remember now if I did that, but I must have done so. If Mr Mohale had told me that he had one, obviously I must have told that to Mr Mathlo.
MR KNOPP: Well I'm just referring to the evidence which you gave in the High court, on page 188 of the record, where you testified
"I also informed Mr Mathlo that accused 1, Mr Mohale, had a valid driver's licence."
MR TLEANE: Well I've just indicated, Sir, that I don't remember, but I think I remember Mr Mohale mentioning to me that he acquired a licence while he was in exile.
MR KNOPP: Mr Chairman, just for the Panel's benefit, the Panel is not in possession of the transcript of the evidence in the High court, but I am in possession of most of that transcript. That's what I'm referring to now.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you can proceed with that, I mean both you and Mr Tleane have an edge on us there, but it might not be so important from our perspective. If there a dispute between the two of you and it's necessary to actually have regard to that, then we could do that.
MR KNOPP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR LAX: Just give us the page reference again, just so I can make a note of it in case it becomes relevant.
MR KNOPP: Page 188 of the transcript of the High court.
MR LAX: Thanks.
MR KNOPP: I put to you further, Mr Tleane, that the applicant did not have a valid driver's licence at the time.
MR TLEANE: I cannot dispute that, Sir, but I think my understanding at that time is that he had a licence. The other motivation for that is that he was driving George Biela's cars around frequently.
MR KNOPP: No, that is correct, he was driving George Biela's car.
MR TLEANE: So I presumed that he had a licence. You don't travel from Thembisa to Standerton without a licence, there's a possibility that you can be stopped by the police or the traffic police and so on, there could be problems. I presumed that he was licensed, that is why his family could give him you know, their cars to move around with in the township.
MR KNOPP: Yes. But Mr Tleane, my point is this, that you made a representation to Julius Mathlo concerning a valid driver's licence of the applicant, at a time when you had not satisfied yourself by inspecting a valid driver's licence.
MR TLEANE: Sir, I don't think it is correct to say I had not satisfied myself that Mr Mohale did not have a valid driver's licence. I think it would be convenient for me, it would be in my interests in this Tribunal, to quickly say yes, Mr Mohale said that he had a licence and so on, to strengthen my case, but I'm saying my memory is not all that strong, I'm 44 years old now you know. I say I think I recall Mr Mohale indicating to me that he had actually acquired a licence while he was out in exile.
So I've got to come here and tell the truth, I don't have to become an opportunist, and I've indicated that I think that he actually indicated to me that he acquired that licence. I think that serves the purpose.
MR KNOPP: The other aspect about the motorcar is this. After the applicant had completed his mission regarding the victim Songo, he did not return the motor vehicle to the owner who was Julius Mathlo, he returned the motor vehicle to you.
MR TLEANE: Yes, that is correct. Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: Is your evidence that you were really friendly with George Biela, there wasn't a close relationship with the applicant?
MR TLEANE: Sir, since the first time when Mr Mohale was pointed out to me and when Mr Mohale actually came into the office to request for transportational assistance. I think that happened within a period of about two weeks or so, it could be slightly more than that or slightly just below that, I don't think it is possible to strike a good relationship with a person that was a total stranger with you, in that particular period.
I had come to know that he was George Biela's brother-in-law, but I don't think we had reached a stage where he could now become my friend. George Biela was my friend, he still remains my friend.
In the High court trial, George Biela, Mr Mohale's brother-in-law, actually testified as my own witness. He was my witness in the High court matter. That indicates clearly how close I am with George Biela. I don't think George Biela would have chosen to testify for me you know, and not for his brother-in-law, if we were friends.
MR KNOPP: But the point is this, you went out of your way, you lied to an owner of a motorcar in order to obtain a motorcar for the use of a person that you weren't even close to.
MR TLEANE: Sir, if an opportunity presented itself again to me, a cadre came in, an activist, someone who went into exile and makes sacrifices for the liberation of my country, I would do it again. That was the spirit then. If that opportunity came again, I think I would do it again.
I was helping someone that was known in the township to have just come back from exile, someone who was an ANC members, and I'm saying there was that excitement at that time. I repeat that if the opportunity presented itself again, I would do it, Sir. I didn't have any reason to suspect at that time that there was something peculiar about Mr Mohale's conduct, that would then encourage me not to proceed and help Mr Mohale.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knopp?
MR KNOPP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
The victim, Mr Songo, did you come across him after this instance on the 11th of September 1993, at a meeting at the City Council's office in Kempton Park?
MR TLEANE: Sir, I may not be sure about the date obviously, but yes, there was a particular incident where local organisations attended a meeting convened by the Kempton Park City Council, which was to discuss about developmental issues in Thembisa. Mr Songo also attended that particular meeting.
MR KNOPP: And a certain incident happened in the middle of the meeting.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: Can you tell the Tribunal about that incident?
MR TLEANE: I can't quote the incident verbatim, but what transpired is that while we were proceeding with issues on the agenda, out of the blue you know, Mr Songo just barged in and started accusing me and said that I had hired certain people to go and kill him and so on. I was very angry.
There was chaos in that meeting. Finally I left that meeting with my own delegation because I was very, very fed-up. I thought it was not correct for Mr Songo to approach me in that manner in that type of a public meeting and make that serious accusation against me. Mind you, that was before the matter was even finalised in court. The matter was still in the hands of the police.
MR KNOPP: So his attempted murder wasn't part of the agenda of that meeting at the City Hall?
MR TLEANE: No, it wasn't. I don't think the council will call a meeting, Sir, to discuss about attempted murders and so on.
MR KNOPP: Were you concerned about Mr Songo's attitude towards you?
MR TLEANE: I was concerned about Mr Songo's attitude after he had actually uttered those words that he uttered.
MR KNOPP: Who was the Chairman of that meeting?
MR TLEANE: I can't remember. It was one of the officials of the council, I can't remember. It could have been the CEO, it could have been the Chairman of the Executive Committee, I can't remember. But it was members of the old Kempton Park City Council.
MR KNOPP: Right. Then on the 18th of December 1994, was there another meeting of organisations including the ANC, at Rabe(?) Ridge Hall?
MR TLEANE: Yes, once more I am not sure about the date, but there was another incident there.
MR KNOPP: And what was that incident?
MR TLEANE: I think Mr Songo tried to speak to Mr Izak Mahlango, the current Mayor of the Kyalami Metropolitan Council, to indicate that there was this problem between himself and myself which he wanted Mr Mahlango to facilitate.
I think Mr Songo was looking for some kind of a meeting where political organisations, including Mr Songo's, would sit down and try and discuss this matter. I think I pulled Mr Mahlango aside and related the incident that happened at the Kempton Park meeting. I also reminded Mr Mahlango that this is a police matter, we don't think it would be correct for us to try and discuss this matter as organisations. This is a very, very serious matter and I don't think I would be prepared to be part of any meetings that would be convened by political organisations to try and deal with this issue. Such a meeting never took place.
MR KNOPP: Alright. Can we move on to Ashley Sesing's evidence.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: You knew Ashley Sesing?
MR TLEANE: I indicated yesterday Sir, that I knew Mr Sesing as being one of the young lions you know, the younger members of the Mass Democratic Movement organisations.
MR KNOPP: Would I be correct in saying that Sesing and the applicant would have regarded you as a leader in the community?
MR TLEANE: That is not true, Sir. I'm going to indicate to this Tribunal why it is not true. When Mr Mohale left for exile, in my view Mr Mohale did not even know about me. I don't think he was politically involved at that time, although he claims that he was. That is the one matter.
But I think the other matter is that when he came back he still did not know me, he only happened to know me for about a week or two. For him to immediately repeat that I am his leader, I am his leader, is very, very strange to me. That is the one matter.
As far as Mr Sesing is concerned, Mr Sesing is still very, very young. When I happened to know him I think he was in the SRCs or things like those. He might have been in the youth structures you know, of the Mass Democratic Movement and so on. He was more within the youth structures than the Civic body. In 1992, the ANC was already launched in the township, they youth then in the township were more aligned to the ANC than to the Civic body. Yesterday I indicated the antagonisms that had already developed between the Civic Movement and the ANC. Now for a young man such as Mr Sesing to come in here and claim that here is Mr Tleane, he's my leader, even now he's my leader, I think he made that statement conveniently.
MR KNOPP: I want to more onto another aspect now.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: That's the legal representation of the applicant who was accused 1 in the High court.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: Up until I took over the defence of the applicant in the High court, he was represented by a certain Adv de Kota(?), is that correct?
MR TLEANE: I remember the name, yes, de Kota.
MR KNOPP: And that legal representation was paid for out of the funds of SANCO's coffins.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: And at a certain stage, as you have testified yourself and Maseko ...(intervention)
MR TLEANE: Mr Paul Maseko?
MR KNOPP: Yes. ... George Biela.
MR TLEANE: Mandla Gumede.
MR KNOPP: Mandla Gumede.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: ... went to visit the applicant in Leeukop Prison.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir, this was after Mr Mohale himself had already phoned the Thembisa branch, had already phoned the office and that specific request. The other thing that was also contained in Mr Mohale's request, which I believe also persuaded the organisation to think favourably in terms of this particular request, was that Mr Mohale was indicating to the office that he intended revealing in court that there was some kind of a conspiracy that was happening, that would then also assist in clearing the facts about who did what and so on and so on. And I think the organisation was encouraged because this is what we wanted to happen. We believed that there was a conspiracy, that is why I became the scapegoat which still contends that there is a conspiracy that is involved here.
They went to prison after Mr Mohale had not just once, but on quite a number of occasions, phoned the Thembisa office and made that particular request. At that stage I was already the Secretary of SANCO in the Gauteng Province. The information was related to us by the sub-structure.
MR KNOPP: Are you contending this was a political conspiracy?
MR TLEANE: We still contend so, Sir. We are not sure about the players that are involved in this conspiracy, but I think in Mr Mohale's testimony he indicated that there's quite a number of people who claim to be police, who visited him while he was in prison. Ultimately he decided that he was going to make certain confessions and so on and so on.
We don't have the facts, we don't have the evidence, but we believed very, very strongly that because of the animosities that existed between the Civic body and the local ANC, also because of the fact that I had resigned from the Kempton Park/Thembisa local authority, where I was Mayor in 1996. Because of differences between the views of the Civic Movement and those of the ANC, certain individuals were not happy about the situation and as a result I may have been regarded to be uncooperative or problematic and so on, so something had to be concocted.
As I've indicated, I'm not sure about the exact facts, but time will tell. Maybe beyond this Tribunal you know, facts will still come onto the table so that we can know exactly what happened. But we believe very strongly that there were underhands insofar as these matters are concerned.
MR KNOPP: So is it your contention that this political conspiracy had the object of falsely implicating you in the murder of the victim, Songo?
MR TLEANE: In both matters, Sir, not necessarily Mr Songo's. I was charged for the murder case, I was charged for the attempted murder case, I was charged for the arms and all these things. I was acquitted on the arms charges even before the matter was concluded, because my defence requested the matter to - the judge, to actually discharge me from all those charges.
MR KNOPP: Are you're talking about referring to a Section 174, acquittal in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act?
MR TLEANE: Sir, as an advocate you will come to my assistance. Obviously you are aware that I'm a lay person, I may not know which Sections you refer to, but I hope before I leave this world, that I'll be able to reach the type of educational levels that you have had an opportunity to reach, Sir.
MR KNOPP: And now you've issued summons against the Minister of Safety and Security, for civil damages.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir, I've done that, Sir.
MR KNOPP: But why have you done that?
MR TLEANE: I believe it is correct. My name, my credibility was damaged through this matter. The case was reported in the media, the print media, the electronic media and so on, "The Former Mayor of Kempton Park Arrested for Murder" and all these things. A lot of money was involved in paying you know, legal fees and so on. And I believe, I believe very strongly that the Namane family, the Songo families, also reserve a right to continuously point a finger at me, although I think it is not justified.
Although I think that the process of the High court trial and the process of the Tribunal itself, may have assisted them to begin to realise that the suspicions that they have about me are not justified. But that does not remove the fact that my name, my image, my credibility in the community was actually dented. I feel it is correct for me to take the stance that I have taken.
MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, I put to you that SANCO is not a wealthy organisation and to fork R35 000 for the legal defence of the applicant in the High court, that was a difficult thing to do.
MR TLEANE: Well Sir, I've already explained that both myself and Mr Mohale were members of SANCO, by virtue of being residents. We don't assist people who have cards, who had taken out cards and so on only. In the township when there are problems, any type of problems, people come to the office, they are not asked for their membership cards before they get assistance. So when Mr Mohale approached the office and presented his matter as he did and also indicated that he did not believe that if he proceeded with an advocate from the Legal Aid, he was going to be able to expose this conspiracy, the organisation was then persuaded. SANCO Gauteng Province has a company by the name of Sinamandla, an investment wing, Sinamandla. The money actually came, not necessarily from SANCO per se, but it came from Sinamandla Investments. We believed that it was for a good cause.
MR KNOPP: Mr Tleane, I put this to you in the High court under cross-examination, namely that the applicant never called for assistance, legal representation from SANCO.
MR TLEANE: No, Sir, that is not true, that is a false statement. The reason why Mr George Biela had to be a part of all that process was precisely to guard against such allegations coming up at a later stage. Mr Biela was part of the delegation, as a member of that family, to ensure that there was nothing underhand insofar as this particular request is made. So if Mr Mohale had not phoned the office, I don't think anybody would have gone to prison. That includes his own brother-in-law, Mr George Biela.
In fact, Mr George Biela testified in court, if you will remember Sir, that his family, the Mohale family and the Biela family were actually happy to realise that there was this request that was made by Mr Mohale, which the organisation was accepting. He was indicating that the two families were not going to be in a position to can raise the kind of funds that were necessary to try and make a bail application for Mr Mohale. The statement was made by Mr Mohale's brother-in-law on behalf of the family in court, in the High court trial.
MR KNOPP: I'm putting to you now what I've already put to you in the High court and to Mr Mandla Gumede, who was called to testify as your defence witness.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR KNOPP: That the purpose of this delegation going to the applicant in Leeukop Prison, was to attempt to get him to testify in such a manner that you would not be implicated at all at the trial.
MR TLEANE: Sir, we don't need to be academics or highly learned people to realise that that version is not correct. When we reached a stage of appearing in court, Mr Mohale had already made his confessions, there was no way in which he could try himself to change those confessions. Okay? There was therefore no way in whmch we would have succeeded to try and persuade him to change these things.
So that version Sir, with due respect, is not correct at all. How would you change - at least you are a legal person, how could you possibly try and change these things? Because all of us had copies of Mr Mohale's confessions by then, which were distributed once the matter started. How could that have happened? You can't go there and change stories and so on, it would have worked against him if he did that, it would have complicated his case in any case. So that was definitely not our view.
Mr Mohale had already made those statements, he implicated me in Mr Songo's case, he implicated Mr Radebe and Mr Thwala in Mr Namane's case. How on earth could we have been able, even if we had the best legal team in the world, I don't think we would have succeeded to try and twist these things around, I don't think so, Sir.
MR KNOPP: You see, Mr Tleane, a confession in our law is only evidence against the person that makes the confession, the confession is not evidence against a co-accused. So that confession couldn't be used as evidence against you.
MR TLEANE: All I'm trying to say, Sir, I'm not necessarily a legal person, in simplistic terms I'm trying to say if he had made that confession that I was implicated in Mr Songo's matter and Mr Thwala and Mr Radebe were implicated in Mr Namane's matter, how were we going to try and juggle these facts around in court. Whether the confession worked against me or against him, I think that is a secondary matter. The primary matter is, how were these facts going to be juggled around?
MR KNOPP: I'm putting to you, Mr Tleane, as I put to you already in the High court, that the purpose of, the whole idea of paying for the legal representation of the applicant was so that he shouldn't implicate you in the trial.
MR TLEANE: Well I still repeat Sir, that is not correct.
MR KNOPP: Just to advance this aspect, the complication came in when my predecessor, the other counsel, was compelled to withdraw from the case because he felt that he couldn't do justice either to his client or to the court, he had a conflict.
MR TLEANE: Sir, I don't know the exact reasons that broke the agreement or the contract between Mr Mohale and his legal team. If it was our intention to use that particular situation to try and make things easier for myself, all we had to do was to use my own legal team to represent Mr Mohale. That would have made things very, very easy and then, we would then have been in a position to manipulate things and so on, as it is being suspected at this stage. So he got a new team altogether, they started having problems and so on and then the agreement was terminated.
My experience of Mr Mohale, during the High court trial and during this tribunal here, is that Mr Mohale appears to be a highly temperamental person, a highly emotional person you know.
I don't know if you have not had the same problems with him already and so on during the trial and during the Tribunal here. I think that also played a part in Mr Mohale actually terminating his mandate with his previous legal team, it had nothing to do with us. If I wanted to manipulate, why use another legal team, why not use this one you know, so that ...(indistinct) give instructions to that man. It will be much easier. Why organise a new team altogether if you want to fabricate things?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp.
MR KNOPP: I just want to put to you that in the High court, when you testified about the applicant who was accused 1, on page 186 of the record, you testified that accused 1 was a withdrawn person, he was reserved.
MR TLEANE: In which particular context are you, do you want us to talk about that? Do I have that in my package or what?
MR KNOPP: It's not in your package, I'm just putting it to you that that is how you described accused 1's behaviour when you testified in the High court, that he was a withdrawn person and he was reserved.
MR TLEANE: It's nearly similar to what I've just indicated here, he's temperamental and so on. He's performing right now, he was performing yesterday, he was performing on Monday also. It's precisely what I'm trying to describe to the Tribunal, Sir. You may have used different words, but I think the effect is the same.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can we move on from the character of the applicant, I don't know whether it's going to assist us in deciding amnesty here.
MR KNOPP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if it deals with the merits of this application, it might be of some greater assistance.
MR KNOPP: Thank you.
You've heard the version of the applicant, namely that it was yourself that engaged the applicant and Sesing to murder the victim, Songo. What do you say about that?
MR TLEANE: Sir, that is incorrect. I gave no instructions to anybody, I had no reasons. When something happens there must be a motivation. I've indicated to the Tribunal, I've indicated in the High court, Mr Songo was no threat to me as much as Mr Namane was no threat to me and to the organisations. I gave no ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have noted, you don't need to repeat. The testimony has been noted, so ...
MR KNOPP: I put to you further that the only reason that you acquired the motor vehicle for the use of the applicant was for him to achieve his mission, to use the car in order to kill Songo.
MR TLEANE: That is not true, Sir. Even if I was that type of person, I think I would have used a faster and new, a brand new fast car that could move swiftly around and so on, not an old Tredia.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes again, Mr Tleane, ...(intervention)
MR TLEANE: My apologies.
CHAIRPERSON: ... it may very well be in your own interest just to respond directly to the Advocate's questions.
MR TLEANE: My apologies, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And it might even assist us as well to get our work done.
MR TLEANE: Okay. Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp.
MR KNOPP: I'm further putting to you that the applicant as he had in the past used George Biela's motorcar and the family's vehicles, he had no need to obtain a vehicle through your offices if he needed it for personal use, in other words to take his mother to Standerton. He could have use the family vehicles, he wouldn't have had to come to you cap in hand asking for the use of the vehicle.
MR TLEANE: Sir, I wish to heed your call that I should be very brief, but I think there is a fact that I need to raise with the Tribunal insofar as this question is concerned. Mr Knopp's question is not valid in the sense that yesterday here it was the first time that I got this information. Mr Thwala testified, I did not know of this information before, that Mr Mohale actually acquired another vehicle from a certain attorney in the township. He had to produce a gun and all those things. It appeared from time to time Mr Mohale had problems with transport and so and so on, so to suggest that he could have used Mr George Biela's car, I don't think that is quite in order.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Knopp.
MR KNOPP: I also put to you that during the mission, as the applicant has testified and Sesing, they had to come to report to you about the mission and they needed money for petrol which you provided to assist them and that you then told them they should now hurry up in completing the mission because the owner of the car wanted his car back.
MR TLEANE: That is not correct, Sir, soldiers don't report to civilians.
MR KNOPP: I put to you further that as the applicant has testified, it has always been the tradition in the ANC for the military to operate on the directions of the political leaders.
MR TLEANE: Well Sir, that is a very complex question. I've made it very clear that at no stage did I hold office in any other organisation, I've always been in the Civic Movement. I don't know how the intricate policies of the ANC work insofar as how their soldiers take orders and so on, but as far as the Civic Movement is concerned, ours is not to give orders to anybody to do anything, we deal with bread and butter issues. We protest, we march, we hold banners and all those things, that is all.
MR KNOPP: I'm putting to you further, Mr Tleane, that once the mission had been carried out or partly carried out - I say partly because Mr Songo survived, you then abandoned the applicant and attempted to distance yourself from the mission.
MR TLEANE: That is not true, Sir. I've indicated I only knew him for about two weeks before this problem started, so I could not abandon him because he was never close to me.
MR KNOPP: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Knopp. Ms Vilakazi, have you got any questions?
MS VILAKAZI: Well I have not more than two questions to Mr Tleane.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Please go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Mr Tleane, I'm not representing Mr Songo, so whatever I'll be asking you about relates to the Namane family because I'm representing that family.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Ma'am.
MS VILAKAZI: You have in your evidence referred several times to tensions which prevailed between different political organisations and within the Civic Movement as well. You have also made reference to a conspiracy and you have also made mention of the fact that your personal image has been dented by all these happenings. Now my question to you is, as a member of the community having been involved and having been a prominent member in the Thembisa community and having known Mr Namane, who was also active within the Thembisa community and having known as well the fact that Mr Namane's death was talked about a lot within the Thembisa community, in your pursuit of exposing the conspiracy that you perceive exists, what information can you put to the Commission that will assist the Commission in establishing what the conspiracy involved and in that way they might be able to solve the riddle or the web pertaining to the death of Mr Namane?
MR TLEANE: Ma'am, I don't have any special information per se which I can divulge now, which I have not divulged already. I wish I had that type of information because I'm just as worried as the Namane family and also the Songo family, that we actually come to understand what really transpired there. But I've indicated a few moments ago that perhaps even beyond this Tribunal you know, a possibility, an opportunity could come, that new information actually comes to the fore that will finally lead to unscrambling this particular question. I would be happy to cooperate in that particular process for both families and for myself and for my organisation as well.
MS VILAKAZI: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Has the Panel got any questions? Yes, Mr Knopp.
MR KNOPP: No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you. Yes?
MR SIBANYONI: Very few, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Tleane, the fact that Mr Namane was involved in assisting people with housing, he had some plans, maybe we can say he was regarded as a developer, did it become a problem to your structure, to the Thembisa Residents Organisation or Association?
MR TLEANE: Sir, in my testimony yesterday I actually indicated that I did not even know Mr Namane from that angle, I only knew him as a member of the Thembisa Civic Association and also as being a PAC member. I happen to know for the first time during Mr Thwala's testimony, that Mr Namane was actually involved in housing. He may have been, I don't want to dispute that, but that is not how I knew him.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Thwala also testified about the attempts to recruit people belonging to the old structure, the old Councils, to come back. That's the words he was using. Was Mr Songo maybe a threat that if he comes back he would be elected, he will occupy positions and you people who are coming from exile, you who are coming from prison wouldn't get positions maybe?
MR TLEANE: Fortunately I was neither from prison nor from exile, Sir, although I was detained from time to time. I had already been based inside, so you know that situation would not have prevailed. But in my testimony I indicated that for instance when the then Mayor, Mr Mothiba, joined the democratic movement he did not do so willingly, certain pressures were actually exerted on him as well as on other people you know. His businesses were bombed and other things and SOCON(?) etc., etc., then he resigned and then he joined the movement and the Council became discredited. Mr Songo has recently joined the ANC, I think last year. He's now a member of the ANC, as we speak.
MR SIBANYONI: In 1992, was he a stumbling block by refusing to stop participating in the old structures and joining your side?
MR TLEANE: No, Sir. The Council was actually dissolved. There was so much mass action in the township, progressive mass action in the township, there was a demand that was made that these Councils be dissolved because they represented nobody. And in 1993, finally, the then Transvaal Provincial Administration dissolved the Council and Mr Songo and the others, those who were still remaining there, including Mr Mothiba's successor, that was Mr More, they were dissolved and they become nothing. That's all.
MR SIBANYONI: At the stage the applicant needed transport you said you knew him for hardly two weeks.
MR TLEANE: Yes, Sir.
MR SIBANYONI: What made you to go out of your way to ensure that he gets the vehicle?
MR TLEANE: One, I'd indicated that he was introduced to me by his brother-in-law to be his brother-in-law, someone who had just come back from exile. That is the one thing that I indicated. I also indicated that a call was made by the leadership of the liberation movement that all of us should try to be as helpful as possible to those who had just come back into the country ...(intervention)
MR SIBANYONI: You said Mr Mathlo wouldn't agree if he knew that his car would be driven to Standerton ...(intervention)
MR TLEANE: The distance ...
MR SIBANYONI: ... the distance is too long.
MR TLEANE: I think I would also have a problem if that car belonged to me, the distance. The car I'm talking of is not a fancy car, Sir.
MR SIBANYONI: But why did you personally agree that it should be drive to Standerton?
MR TLEANE: I did not have a car of my own, I couldn't even drive. It was during the course of the day, most of the people who owned cars were at work and so on. Mr Mathlo was not just an ordinary resident, Mr Mathlo was the Chairman of one of our sectional committees, from time to time they frequented the office. That is why I thought of him because he was always in the office and he was driving this car. I thought the car would then be easily available.
MR SIBANYONI: But the crux of my question is, why would you agree that Mr Mathlo's car should be driven such a long distance, being an old Tredia car?
MR TLEANE: I knew for a fact that senior citizens always take care of their things, not necessarily cars, they take - I knew that in terms of roadworthiness, it would be able to reach that area if it was driven properly. I had no other alternative, that is why I banked on that car.
MR SIBANYONI: Did you know Mr Mabena who apparently took the applicant for hiding in Kwandebele?
MR TLEANE: I don't know which Mr Mabena, Mr Mohale may be referring to, because as a South African Sir, you know there are so many Mabenas here. The Mabenas, there are so many of them. Unless we are told specifically which one.
MR SIBANYONI: When he was in Kwandebele, did he come to you for assistance, logistical support?
MR TLEANE: I don't know that he went to Kwandebele and so on, Sir.
MR SIBANYONI: But were there some times when he was coming to you for logistical support?
MR TLEANE: No, no, no, Sir, not at any stage. He only came to me when he ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tleane, it will help us, you have answered the question, you don't need to ...(intervention)
MR TLEANE: Alright, thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: ... repeat the evidence.
MR TLEANE: Sometimes you know, you become emotional you know.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.
MR SIBANYONI: Did Mr Songo aspire to be a Mayor at the time you were also in the, or you were about to be a Mayor?
MR TLEANE: I said I was a Mayor in 1995, after the new system had come into being. Where was Mr Songo then? I think Mr Songo was then with the PAC, he joined, Mr Songo later on joined the PAC and left it and joined another organisation. I can't remember the name of that organisation. He contested the elections, especially as a PAC member and later on as a member of this other community organisation, whose name I don't remember.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Anything? Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Tleane, thank you very much, you are excused.
MR TLEANE: Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your trouble to come back today.
MR TLEANE: And thanks for accommodating my predicament yesterday about the examination, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You're excused. Yes, Ms Mtanga, does that take care of the evidence that you intended to present?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Now Ms Vilakazi, have you got firm instructions, is there any evidence you are going to tender?
MS VILAKAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm not going to call any witnesses, the Namane's submission will be part of my closing argument.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you, Ms Vilakazi. Now Mr Knopp, you have indicated that should you reach this stage you would need a bit of time. We have indicated that we would be amenable to that request, your colleagues will gladly, it seems, agree to go along with that. So under those circumstances we will adjourn this application for argument tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock in this venue.
MR KNOPP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. So we'll excuse you at this stage.
Yes, Ms Mtanga, what remains?
MS MTANGA: The next matter is the application of Mr Makola.
