CHAIRPERSON: What language would he speak?
MR PADI: Sotho.
CHAIRPERSON: Your full names?
MR PHAHLANE: I am Neo Ignatius Phahlane.
INTERPRETER: Excuse me Mr Chairman, may I ascertain if he can hear the translation?
CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?
INTERPRETER: I say may I ascertain whether he can hear the translation?
CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear the translation Mr Phahlane?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I do.
NEO IGNATIUS PHAHLANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. Mr Padi?
EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Phahlane is applying for amnesty for the incident which occurred on the 1st of October 1989 in which a Sharpville police station was attacked, pursuant to which attack a person was injured.
MR MALAN: That was Sgt Madibo?
MR PADI: That is correct.
MR MALAN: We have all the papers before us, we have the supplementary document which we have also read. I note from the papers that the Commander K.K. and one of his other colleagues, had already received indemnity in 1990 for this incident? Is there anything you want to add or will you just get him to confirm what is on paper?
MR PADI: I was hoping to get him to run us through his background and briefly relating to the incident if that would be okay with the Committee.
MR MALAN: What I want to suggest to you firstly, I assume you have discussed his application with him and that that is correct?
MR PADI: Yes, I did discuss it with him.
MR MALAN: And I further assume that the supplementary affidavit which he has signed, was done recently, probably yesterday or today?
CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen it?
MR PADI: Yes, I have the one by ...
MR MALAN: Oh, this is Madibo's statement.
MR PADI: Yes.
MR MALAN: Sorry, Madibo's statement, you have seen that?
MR PADI: Yes, that I have seen.
MR MALAN: That seems to be in accordance with the application, there is no dispute of fact?
MR PADI: Yes, there is no disputed facts.
MR MALAN: So everybody is aware of the factual of it, and I am simply suggesting if you want to dispense with any oral evidence, by simply confirming the correctness of his application, then we can leave it to questions to proceed from there, and if you have anything to add which is not in there, do that, but don't repeat, that is simply my suggestion.
MR PADI: Okay, thank you, thank you Honourable Committee Member. Can I get a directive again from the Honourable Committee Member, is it the suggestion that I run through the affidavit?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Padi, are you in practice?
MR PADI: Yes, I am in practice.
JUDGE DE JAGER: It is a tip to you that what we've got before us, if we've got problems, we will ask you to answer on that.
MR PADI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me probably take that cue, Mr Phahlane, you have read your application once more, have you?
MR PHAHLANE: I did not read it today, since I wrote it.
CHAIRPERSON: But you know the contents of your application?
MR PHAHLANE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And that on the 3rd of the 11th month, you gave another affidavit under oath, this year?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And have you read the versions of the police whom you attacked at the police station?
MR PHAHLANE: I did not read the police statements.
CHAIRPERSON: In effect they are confirming what you are saying in your application and they say they have forgiven you. Do you follow that?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words they are saying they are not opposing your application.
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I do understand.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is all we wanted you to do, Mr Padi.
MR PADI: I am indebted to you Honourable Chairperson. I just want to clarify some few issues, if that is okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is your case.
MR PADI: Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Phahlane, at the time of the commission of the incident in question, which political organisation did you belong to?
MR MALAN: Mr Padi, everything is in his application, he says that he was a member of the Vaal Youth Congress, he says he was Deputy President, he talks about the ANC, everything is in there, we have it before us.
MR PADI: Yes, what I am trying to get out of him is that when he committed this particular act, he was not doing it as a member of the Vaal Youth Congress, but as a member of MK. That is exactly what I am trying to extract from him at this stage.
MR MALAN: Please proceed.
MR PADI: Thank you. Mr Phahlane, were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe at the time of the commission of this act?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I was a member of MK.
MR PADI: And you were committing this act as a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR PHAHLANE: Yes, I did that under the command of MK.
MR PADI: From your application it is stated that K.K. Smith was your commander, is that so? Do you confirm that?
MR PHAHLANE: That is correct.
MR PADI: At this stage, Honourable Committee Members I think the rest of the information is covered from this, I will follow up with re-examination if there is any, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Padi. Ms Thabethe, any cross-examination?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.
MS THABETHE: Thank you. Mr Phahlane, were you armed when you went to the police station?
MR PHAHLANE: I was not armed. The only person who was armed was K.K.
MS THABETHE: Can you explain how it came about or why was the one policeman shot, Sgt Madibo?
MR PHAHLANE: Mr Madibo was shot because when we arrived there and they were holding them up, he was the person who resisted. He took up his arm, so we had no alternative, but we had to shoot at him, because the reason why we went there was just to disarm them, so that we could use them for MK purposes because they were supporting the apartheid regime together with the soldiers, so we believed that by disarming them, we would be able to decrease the strength of the apartheid government. Our aim was not to shoot him, it was only to disarm them and give those arms to the MK, so he showed resistance and he ended up being shot.
MS THABETHE: You see, why I am asking you this question is because in the statement written by Mr Madibo, or Sgt Madibo, he indicates that the person who was carrying the firearm, it is on paragraph 4 of the first page, he says the person who was with you began shooting at them, what is your response to that statement or that averment?
MR PHAHLANE: K.K. started shooting, but he was not shooting Mr Madibo, he shot another policeman who was running out of the police station, and that is when Mr Madibo took out his firearm, shooting at K.K.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: We will follow the same procedure, Mr Padi, that if you have any re-examination, let the Committee also deal with questions which they need clarification, and thereafter you would re-examine in total, knowing the views or things elicited by the Committee Members, is that okay with you?
MR PADI: That is okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: I have no questions, thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination?
MR PADI: I have no re-examination at this stage.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there anybody you are calling again in Mr Phahlane's case?
MR PADI: No, there won't be any other persons.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case?
MR PADI: That is my case.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to address us?
MR PADI: Yes, I am ready to address you.
CHAIRPERSON: As always?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, maybe I can just add for the record, that I spoke to the victims who are present here, they have been present since yesterday, patiently waiting, so I just want to put that on record. But in my consultation with them, they did indicate that they are not opposing the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Nor do they want to say anything before argument?
MS THABETHE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS THABETHE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Padi.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And they are satisfied that they are telling the truth?
MS THABETHE: Maybe I should double check that Mr Chairman.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, because it corresponds with what they themselves say.
MS THABETHE: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the entering and the shooting and all that?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, when talking to them yesterday, they wanted to hear if he was going to come and say something differently, but it looks like nothing different has been said, so I don't think really they would want to say anything.
CHAIRPERSON: But in all fairness, because they took trouble to come here, we should afford you another opportunity just to speak to them.
MS THABETHE: Just to find out, sure. I will do that quickly, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. How long do you think it will take?
MS THABETHE: A matter of seconds, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: So we need not leave?
MS THABETHE: Certainly.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS THABETHE: The statements are the same, contain the same.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi, in view of the evidence before us, we are of the feeling that you cannot advance your argument any further, unless there are other things you want to highlight. We are not stopping you, but if there is something that you want to highlight, really we would ...
MR PADI IN ARGUMENT: The only things that I wanted to highlight, Honourable Chair, relates to the fact that this application complies with the requirements of the Act. All the requirements ...
CHAIRPERSON: We wouldn't have heard him if it didn't comply, if the application did not comply, we wouldn't have heard him.
MR PADI: Yes. Beyond that, that is nothing else to say, except that we request that amnesty be granted.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I have no opposition if amnesty is granted.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phahlane, tomorrow morning we will be able to deliver a written decision. We would have done it orally, but because its got to be processed and government gazetted, my oral decision would not go that far, but we promise that tomorrow, during the day, we will give that decision in that respect, and I want to thank the police for their cooperation that you are facilitating the process and you are appreciating very much. We are indebted to you because you have accepted the conflict of the past, you do not say because you are victims, therefore we do not forgive. We are very appreciative of that. In our decision, whichever way it goes, either granting or refusing, we shall refer you to the Reparation Committee, then they will contact you shortly, but I am expressing our hearts to you as a Committee. Thank you very much.
This brings us to the end of the proceedings of the day. We shall be commencing with the other five applications tomorrow, the 24th of November, Wednesday. Those would be Ngubeni, Mahlangu, Madonsela and Nhlapo and Zondo. Thank you. Have a good evening.
MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you get in touch with Mr Moto of the prison in connection with Mr Ngubeni's application? He requested in paragraph 2, could you have a look at that?
CHAIRPERSON: We shall formally adjourn, this we will deal with in Chambers, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
