CHAIRPERSON: We continue with our roll here in Johannesburg and for today we have two matters that have been set down, that is the application of Mr Tshomane and the applications of Messrs Mathebe, Mathebe, Mathebe and Maake. I'm informed by Mr Steenkamp that we will be commencing with the application of Mr Tshomane but before we proceed, I'd just like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Ntsiki Sandi. He is a member of the Amnesty Committee. He is an advocate by profession and he comes from East London. On my left is Mr Wynand Malan. Mr Malan is a Commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and he's also a member of the Amnesty Committee. he comes from Johannesburg and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court and also a member of the Amnesty Committee and I also come from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.
These proceedings will be simultaneously translated and in order to benefit from the translation you must be in possession of one of these devices. If you don't have one, they will be available from the sound technician and then you've just got to tune into the channel, I'm not sure what they are but there's only about two or three of them, for the language that you require.
I would at this stage, with regard to the Tshomane matter, kindly request the legal representatives to place themselves on record.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Judge. At the outset may I apologise for not introducing myself earlier. My name is Crystal Cambanis from the attorneys Nicholls, Cambanis. I act for both the applicant in this matter, Mr Tshomane, as well as the implicated person, Mr Jo Khotle, his Commander.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Cambanis. Mr Steenkamp.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Honourable Chairman. My surname is Steenkamp, I will be the Evidence Leader in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Cambanis, I take it you are going to be calling your client to testify?
MS CAMBANIS: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll swear him in.
JOAS MABOKE TSHOMANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis.
EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you. Mr Tshomane you are the applicant in this matter and you completed an application form, form 1, in the prescribed form, which appears at page 1 to page 7 of the bundle. If you look at page 6 of the bundle, is that your signature? I'm showing it to you now.
MR TSHOMANE: That's correct, that's my signature.
MS CAMBANIS: Do you confirm the content of your Form 1 application?
MR TSHOMANE: That's correct.
MS CAMBANIS: And then, Sir, at page 8 - Chairman, they weren't paginated, I've just taken the liberty, it's so few pages. At page 8 you received a request for further particulars in terms of the Act. Do you confirm that you received it?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, that's correct, I received that.
MS CAMBANIS: At pages 9 and 10 of the bundle there's a hand-written letter which contains the answers to the Request for Further Particulars. At page 10 is that your signature?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, that's correct, that's my signature.
MS CAMBANIS: Do you confirm the contents of page 9 and 10?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, that's correct.
MS CAMBANIS: And then finally Sir at page 11, you've been given a copy of the letter from Mr Joseph Khotle. Do you see that in front of you?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, I do.
MS CAMBANIS: Who is Mr Joseph Khotle?
MR TSHOMANE: Mr Joseph Khotle was my Commander in the ANC.
MS CAMBANIS: And you've seen from there that he confirms that he was your Commander and ...
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, I do see.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I have no questions. Maybe just to put on record that the only person injured in this matter was a schoolgirl apparently. We have sent out numerous specific advertisements in different newspapers as well as the local newspapers. I've got some copies of them here as well. Unfortunately we could not be able to trace the identity or the person that was injured in this matter so therefore, I would submit, with all the respect, Chairman, that all reasonable steps were taken in relation to Section 19(iv) of the Act.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshomane, just to get some details. You say in your application that you were an MK cadre. Did you receive training?
MR TSHOMANE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Whereabout did you receive your training?
MR TSHOMANE: In Swaziland.
CHAIRPERSON: And you also mention that you used a vehicle that was stolen for purposes of this operation? In other words to get you to the place where you laid the explosive device on the railway line. Did you yourself steal the car?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, I'm the person who stole the car.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with the vehicle after the completion of the operation?
MR TSHOMANE: After the operation we give these cars to our Commanders.
CHAIRPERSON: And did that in fact happen with this particular vehicle that you used?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, that's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And we've heard, well we know from the record and also from what Mr Steenkamp has said, that a girl was injured as a result of the explosion and that you learnt about that from newspaper reports, is that correct?
MR TSHOMANE: That's correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you - when you laid the explosive device, what were your intentions with regard to injuring or killing people, if any?
MR TSHOMANE: I did not have the intention to injure any person, because the time when we put those explosives there, was the time when people were not in that area.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Was the intention to derail a train, or just to damage a railway line?
MR TSHOMANE: Our intention was just to damage the railway line.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you - if you blow up a railway line, how can you exclude the possibility of having a huge train crash?
MR TSHOMANE: The time that we put those explosives there was in the morning between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock in the morning and at that time, trains were empty.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Sandi, do you have any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes, I have one or two. This vehicle, where was it stolen?
MR TSHOMANE: We stole the car in Johannesburg.
ADV SANDI: Did you know the owner of the vehicle?
MR TSHOMANE: No, I don't know him.
ADV SANDI: Was it - did you find it parked in the street?
MR TSHOMANE: Yes, it was parked in the street.
ADV SANDI: Can you just give us a description of this vehicle?
MR TSHOMANE: If I remember well, it was a Mazda.
ADV SANDI: Do you know the registration numbers and letters?
MR TSHOMANE: No, I do not know them.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: Mr Tshomane, you have no idea who this schoolgirl could be? You said you heard it over the news. Was there no name mentioned?
MR TSHOMANE: No, her name was not mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know the - they didn't give a description, did they, of the extent of her injuries?
MR TSHOMANE: No, they did not, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Can you tell me where this - exactly where this is? You mention on page 3 of the bundle that it was the railway line between Mzimhlope and Pomolong stations. Whereabouts is that?
MR TSHOMANE: That is in Soweto.
MR MALAN: And Ponsola?
MR TSHOMANE: Pongola is the name of the places where I have committed other offences. I was actually answering the question there because the question wants me to state where I have committed other crimes, so I was stating that I have committed other crimes in Pongola Gate.
MR MALAN: Where is that? Is that in Northern Natal, or in Soweto?
MR TSHOMANE: It is in Natal.
MR MALAN: Is that where you stole the car? So it's Pongola.
MR TSHOMANE: No, that is where we were arrested.
MR MALAN: So where did you steal the car?
MR TSHOMANE: We stole the car in Johannesburg.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?
MS CAMBANIS: No, but there is just one aspect please, if I can just ask him?
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Did you derive any personal benefit from this operation? Were you paid for this operation of Umkhonto?
MR TSHOMANE: No, we were not paid.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions arising?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, do you have any information whether the Analysts or Investigators communicated with Spoornet?
ADV STEENKAMP: Indeed, Mr Chairman, I was informed yesterday that Spoornet actually did receive a notice as well and their legal department was informed about this process.
MR MALAN: No, that's not my question. I'm concerned about the identity of the victim who would be entitled to that status in terms of the Act, if amnesty is granted and I want to know whether everything had been done to trace and locate the victim.
ADV STEENKAMP: Honourable Chairperson, we did, as far as I am concerned, we did everything, even contacting Spoornet as well to find whether or not we could find any accident reports on that day. We couldn't find any ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: On what day, Mr Steenkamp, because we don't know what the day is?
ADV STEENKAMP: I mean during that year then, during that year.
MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, do you have such record there?
ADV STEENKAMP: No, I don't have such records Honourable Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Well will you get it and let us have it please?
ADV STEENKAMP: Chairman, ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: If you tell us that such inquiries were indeed done, I want proof of that.
ADV STEENKAMP: They were done by our analyst and I was informed that not only that, but they did send out notices in all the different newspapers to find out ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: No, I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about that. I'm asking you about a direct communication with Spoornet in connection with a blast on the railway line between Mzimhlope and Pomolong, somewhere in 1987. You're telling me such ...(intervention)
ADV STEENKAMP: There was communication between our analyst and Spoornet definitely yes.
MR MALAN: Did you see that?
ADV STEENKAMP: I didn't see that, I spoke to the analyst yesterday.
MR MALAN: Who was that analyst? Surely you should remember who that analyst was.
ADV STEENKAMP: If it was - I can't remember her surname now unfortunately, but I spoke to her ...
MR MALAN: What's her first name?
ADV STEENKAMP: Linda.
MR MALAN: Linda Modai?
ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that's correct.
MR MALAN: We'll check that and follow up and try to see if we can locate the victim.
ADV STEENKAMP: I will do that.
MR MALAN: Thank you. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Just before you finish, Mr Tshomane, just perhaps to assist in this regard. You know that the incident occurred in 1987. Have you any idea or can you recall perhaps in which month it occurred? If you can't, then just say so.
MR TSHOMANE: I do not remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Tshomane, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, are you calling any other witnesses?
MS CAMBANIS: No other witnesses, except to confirm that I act for Mr Jo Khotle and that he confirms what he's said at page 11.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Honourable Chair, that will be this application then. I would suggest that maybe if the Panel can just take two or three minutes adjournment, that the rest of the people can just take their seats.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, we prefer to hand down written decisions, so for that reason we shall be reserving the decision, which we hope will be published as soon as possible in the near future. Thank you very much for your assistance in this matter.
MS CAMBANIS: I am most disturbed. I prepared for days, argument on this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, well you can have argument.
MS CAMBANIS: But I submit that he complies with Section 20 (a), (b) and (c). Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. We'll take a short adjournment now so that we can reconvene. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
